The Clinical Depth Principle: Why Therapy Cannot Be Reduced to Tools, Hacks, and Sound Bites

What This Work Asks of Therapists: Integration, Not Knowing, and the Capacity to Stay - An Interview with Juliane Taylor Shore, LMFT, LPC, SEP Juliane Taylor Shore, LMFT, LPC, SEP, on therapist integration, not knowing, and the capacity to stay in the room. Curt and Katie talk with Juliane Taylor Shore, LMFT, LPC, SEP, about what determines how much a therapist can do in session. Her answer is not which model you reach for, but how integrated you are while you reach for it. Jules wrote Setting Boundaries That Stick and created the STAIR Method. Jules separates eclectic practice, pulling from whichever training fits the moment, from integrative practice, where one theory of mind and theory of change organizes which tool gets used when. Hers is neurobiological: the brain as an open, dynamic, complex system, most stable and most flexible when its parts stay differentiated and cross-share information. She also names what she thinks training got wrong. Many therapists learned to read client comfort as the measure of their therapeutic presence, a poor gauge when most clients arrive in a threat state. Her alternative is the therapist's own integration, because that is what creates capacity for connection, bonding, and creativity when a session gets hard. In this episode, we discuss: - What separates integrative from eclectic practice - Why client comfort is an unreliable measure of therapeutic presence - How adding compassion to empathy keeps a clinician from fatiguing - What humility and self-kindness predict about client outcomes - How power with differs from power over and power under - Why presence and skill have to be trained in the same state - What grief this job asks therapists to hold Timestamps: - 02:32 - Integrative therapy versus eclectic practice - 05:07 - Theory of mind, theory of change, and integration - 09:10 - What therapists get wrong about presence - 16:27 - Why empathy fatigues and compassion does not - 19:36 - Color shifting and finding felt compassion - 28:11 - PONS: power, of-courseness, not knowing, and self - 35:23 - The salience network, presence, and skill - 38:41 - The grief this work asks you to hold Guest Bio: Juliane Taylor Shore, LMFT, LPC, SEP, is a therapist, author, and teacher who translates neurobiology into practices that support brain change. She wrote Setting Boundaries That Stick, created the STAIR Method, and is an associate Instructor with the Coherence Institute and core faculty with Therapy Wisdom. Learn more at julianetaylorshore.com. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

The Clinical Depth Principle: Why Therapy Cannot Be Reduced to Tools, Hacks, and Sound Bites Curt and Katie on the clinical depth principle: case conceptualization, pacing, and the limits of coping skills. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT take on this month's modern therapist principle, clinical depth over simplification, and the two extremes the profession keeps swinging between. On one side is a therapy culture shaped by medicalization, medical necessity documentation, productivity pressure, and pop psychology trends that flatten complicated people into one size fits all narratives. On the other is the overcorrection, where clinical ambition outpaces the client and depth work turns into chasing catharsis before the relationship can hold it. Curt and Katie talk about why reaching for a worksheet is usually a reaction to real systemic pressure rather than a lack of care, how tools can quietly become the therapist's own defense mechanism, and why premature depth without pacing or consent can push a client outside their window of tolerance. They also describe what clinical depth looks like in their own sessions, from process versus content and case conceptualization to helping clients track their capacity, not just their story. A useful conversation for therapists, supervisors, and clinicians in community mental health or private practice who want deeper clinical reasoning without flooding their clients. In this episode, we discuss: - Why the pull toward tools, hacks, and protocols is a response to systemic pressure - How medicalization and medical necessity documentation shape what happens in session - Why social media has become the cheapest available substitute for clinical consultation - The difference between content and process in ongoing clinical work - Why premature depth, without pacing or consent, is not clinical depth - How to track a client's capacity rather than only their story - What it takes to build your own capacity for deep clinical work Timestamps: 01:53 - The principle: clinical depth over simplification 04:19 - Medicalization and the trade therapists made for legitimacy 09:47 - Content versus process in ongoing clinical work 11:46 - Tools as the therapist's defense mechanism 14:51 - Social media as the cheapest available consultation 19:03 - Premature depth, consent, and common factors 22:47 - What the research says about symptom control versus depth 24:44 - Everything is process, everything is pattern 27:12 - Tracking capacity, not just story 30:23 - Building the capacity to do deep work Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Burnout Before Licensure: Why Prelicensed Therapist Exhaustion Is a Supervision Problem, Not a Time Management Problem A continuing education episode on prelicensed therapist burnout, clinical supervision, and why early career exhaustion is a systemic problem rather than a time management one. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT examine why prelicensed clinicians are entering the mental health workforce already depleted. Client acuity climbed during the pandemic and has not come back down, the least experienced clinicians are frequently assigned the most complex cases, and roughly a third of the work week goes to compliance, tracking, and billing. Add student loan debt, low paid and unpaid associate and practicum roles, and severe evaluation anxiety, and burnout arrives long before licensure. This is not a self-care episode, and Curt and Katie say so at the top: no toxic positivity, no bubble bath prescriptions. They treat prelicensee burnout as a systemic and relational problem, then look at clinical supervision as the place it can realistically be buffered. That includes the supervisor seat, where new supervisors often receive no training in how to supervise, absorb vicarious trauma from every caseload they oversee, and watch as much as 90 percent of the supervision hour get swallowed by administrative work. The back half of the episode is practical. Supervisees get transition rituals, boundary architecture, and a realistic look at managing up. Supervisors get better check-in questions, guidance on modeling vulnerability, and structural adjustments they can make in the next supervision hour. This is a continuing education podcourse. One unit of CE is available through the Modern Therapist Learning Community at moderntherapistcommunity.com. In this episode, we discuss: * Why prelicensed clinicians burn out at higher rates than their licensed colleagues * How burnout presents differently before licensure, as exhaustion, brain fog, and vicarious trauma rather than cynicism * Why treating early career exhaustion as a rite of passage is a supervisory failure * What supervisors are carrying that supervisees rarely see * Concrete strategies supervisees can use without waiting for a supervisor to change * How supervisors can build restorative space into the structure of supervision * Why note lag is a signal of clinical capacity rather than poor organization Timestamps: 00:54 - Why prelicensees arrive already exhausted 02:41 - CE objectives and the systemic frame 09:40 - The data on prelicensed burnout rates 14:26 - The competency trap 17:36 - How burnout looks different before licensure 22:32 - The supervision paradox and the 90 percent problem 29:06 - Strategies for supervisees 37:37 - Strategies for supervisors 50:31 - Case vignette: note lag as a capacity signal 1:04:58 - Key takeaways and call to action Full show notes, references, and CE information: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

You Can't Pizza Party Your Way Out of Burnout: Moral Injury, Compassion Fatigue, and Treating Healthcare Workers - An Interview with Kimberly Johnson, PhD, LMHCD, and Lucy Li, MD Kimberly Johnson, PhD, and Lucy Li, MD, of the Emotional PPE Project on healthcare worker mental health and moral injury. Curt and Katie talk with Kimberly Johnson, PhD, LMHCD, a counselor educator at Touro University with more than thirty years of clinical experience in trauma, crisis, and disaster mental health, and Lucy Li, MD, a pediatric anesthesiologist at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Both serve on the board of the Emotional PPE Project, a volunteer-run nonprofit reducing the barriers that keep healthcare workers from accessing mental health care. Healthcare workers rarely arrive in therapy looking the way the distress would suggest. They mask, they overcompensate, and they spend session time explaining the job before they get to what the job has done to them. Kimberly describes the trifecta therapists often flatten into ordinary workplace burnout: burnout, compassion fatigue and complex trauma, and moral injury braided together, frequently presenting subclinically. Lucy describes the same terrain from inside medicine, including what shifted for her after her friend and co-resident died by suicide during residency. They also walk through the Emotional PPE Project's directory of volunteer therapists and its ePPE 101 training for mental health professionals who want to work with healthcare workers well. In this episode, we discuss: - Why healthcare workers are a heterogeneous population, not a single clinical profile - How burnout, complex trauma, and moral injury show up together and subclinically - The intake questions that surface occupational risk factors early - Why moral injury sits where occupational, vocational, and personal identity stop aligning - What stigma costs healthcare workers, their patients, and the workforce - How the Emotional PPE Project connects healthcare workers to free, confidential care - Why the same barriers show up for therapists as healthcare providers Timestamps: - 02:38 - What therapists get wrong with healthcare workers - 07:11 - Professional humility and the questions worth asking early - 09:24 - Burnout, trauma, and moral injury as a trifecta - 15:30 - Where moral injury actually lives - 17:43 - Stigma and the fear of seeking care - 22:00 - The second victim effect and being sent home - 25:10 - Beyond pizza parties: what structural support looks like - 33:27 - Inside the Emotional PPE Project and ePPE 101 Guest Bios: Kimberly Johnson, PhD, LMHCD is Director of Special Projects and Assistant Professor in Clinical Mental Health Counseling at Touro University, a licensed therapist in New York, a certified Compassion Fatigue Therapist and Educator and Field Traumatologist, and a Diplomate with the American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress. Lucy Li, MD is an attending anesthesiologist in Pediatric Anesthesiology at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and a board member of the Emotional PPE Project. She completed her anesthesiology residency at Massachusetts General Hospital, where she was chief resident, and focuses on physician mental health and wellness. Learn more at emotionalppe.org Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Rest, By Force or By Choice: Burnout, Self-Care, and Sustainable Practice for Therapists - An Interview with Cecily Moore, PhD Dr. Cecily Moore on burnout, rest as a clinical intervention, and unlearning the Strong Black Woman Narrative. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Cecily Moore, a licensed therapist, counselor educator, and clinical supervisor, about why the expectation of endless strength and infinite patience is an unsustainable ask for therapists and other helping professionals. As clinicians carry collective grief and moral exhaustion alongside their clients, Dr. Moore reframes what burnout is actually asking of us. At the center of the conversation is a simple, uncomfortable idea: your body is designed to protect you, so you will stop either by force or by choice. Dr. Moore makes the case for rest as a clinical intervention rather than a reward, unpacks how self-care has been co-opted into something you buy instead of something that restores you, and explains why advocacy that runs on depletion is a ticking time bomb. Real self-care, she argues, is honest about limits, boundaries, and capacity. From there the discussion turns practical. Dr. Moore shares how deeper values work (asking where a value came from and how it was modeled) opens the door to change, how her "BS Job" checklist gives clinicians a concrete mirror for what is draining them, and why systems will not shift until the people inside them do. She also connects this to her research on unlearning the Strong Black Woman Narrative and the survival-based beliefs about strength, productivity, and worth that keep so many helpers over-functioning. This is a grounded, hopeful conversation for any therapist trying to build a sustainable career without abandoning the work they care about. In this episode, we discuss: - Why endless strength and infinite patience are an unsustainable ask for helping professionals - How to tell rest as a clinical intervention apart from self-care that has been co-opted - Why your body will make you stop, by force or by choice - How to size your advocacy to your actual capacity so it does not deplete you - What deeper values work looks like, and why it drives real change - Why unlearning survival-based beliefs about strength and worth makes practice more sustainable Timestamps: - 01:20 - Who Dr. Moore is and what she puts into the world - 02:49 - What therapists get wrong about endless strength and infinite patience - 04:17 - Collective trauma and watching the world change in real time - 06:37 - Moral injury, privilege, and truth-telling across lived experience - 10:29 - How self-care got co-opted, and why advocacy runs on your well-being - 13:07 - Why rest feels so scary - 15:00 - Reframing self-care as self-maintenance - 18:58 - Over-functioning students and learning to be human - 22:49 - Insight versus implementation, and the systemic barriers - 24:15 - Why systems can't shift until the people do - 28:13 - Sustainable choices, by force or by choice - 29:16 - Values work and the "BS Job" checklist - 31:24 - The Strong Black Woman Narrative and questioning conditioning - 35:28 - Where to find Dr. Moore Guest Bio: Dr. Cecily Moore is a licensed therapist, counselor educator, researcher, and clinical supervisor with a PhD in Counselor Education and Supervision. She is the founder of Dr. Cecily Moore & Associates and the creator of the Reappropriate, Redefine, Recover framework, which helps Black women unlearn the Strong Black Woman Narrative and the survival-based beliefs around strength, productivity, and worth that fuel burnout. Her work blends trauma-informed care, nervous system regulation, and culturally responsive practice, and reframes rest as a clinical intervention, not a reward. Learn more at drcecilymoore.com. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Suffering Is Collective, and So Is Healing: Belonging, Ritual, and Meaning in Uncertain Times - An Interview with Suzan Song, MD Suzan Song, MD, psychiatrist and medical anthropologist, on why suffering is collective and healing comes through belonging, ritual, and meaning. Curt and Katie talk with Suzan Song, MD about why the exhaustion so many therapists and clients are carrying right now is not only personal. Drawing on more than two decades of global mental health work with survivors of war, trafficking, and mass violence, Suzan makes the case that distress is often collective, shaped by culture and unstable systems, and that healing happens through belonging, narrative, ritual, meaning, and agency, not symptom elimination alone. She names what American mental health training often misses when it treats suffering as something bounded inside a single person, and offers concrete, low-cost rituals therapists can use to stay grounded. The conversation moves from collective grief and moral exhaustion to the difference between functioning and healing, and to grounding in relationship: who you matter to, and who matters to you. This is a grounding conversation for therapists feeling stretched by the current moment, and for anyone drawn to a global mental health lens on collective trauma, ritual, and sustainable healing. In this episode, we discuss: - Why the distress therapists and clients carry right now is collective, not only individual - What American mental health training misses when it locates suffering inside a bounded self - How belonging, narrative, ritual, and meaning function as healing - Why functioning is not the same as healing - Grounding in relationship as an alternative to purely individual nervous-system regulation - How small acts of agency protect against demoralization - Low-cost rituals therapists can use to keep moral exhaustion from following them home Timestamps: 01:44 - Who Suzan Song is and what she puts into the world 02:58 - How a medical anthropology lens changes clinical work 05:34 - When the self is collective, not bounded 09:18 - Collective suffering and the loss of agency 12:18 - Moral injury and disengagement in therapists 17:23 - Finding your own rituals as a therapist 24:07 - Grounding in relationship 28:13 - Why functioning is not healing Guest Bio: Suzan Song, MD, MPH, PhD is a child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist and medical anthropologist, and a professor of psychiatry at George Washington University. She has spent more than two decades advising on mental health and psychosocial support (MHPSS) in humanitarian and conflict-affected settings, and is the author of Why We Suffer and How We Heal (Harmony / Penguin Random House, 2026). Learn more at suzansong.com. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Sustainability Is a Fundamental Responsibility: Therapist Burnout, Moral Injury, and the Systems We Practice Within Therapist burnout, sustainability, and moral injury, and why fixing burnout can't land on individual clinicians alone. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT kick off a series of discussions on modern therapist principles with the one that shapes almost everything they cover: sustainability is a fundamental responsibility, paired with the reminder that therapists are human first. Nine years into the show, they revisit a question they keep returning to. If therapist burnout is a systemic problem, why does the job of solving it keep landing on individual clinicians? It is a framing the show has argued for since 2017, and it still cuts against most of the advice therapists are sold about fixing their own burnout by charging their worth and tightening their own schedules. This episode holds a both/and at its center. You are responsible for practicing competently and staying well enough to do the work, and yet shrinking reimbursement, vertically integrating insurance companies, inconsistent platforms, and constant collective crisis sit far outside any one therapist's control. Curt and Katie talk honestly about martyrdom, moral injury, and the polished corporate language now reshaping the field, then name the four places where sustainability tends to break down: too much work, not enough of the right work, work that betrays your values, and isolation. They also name what is shifting fastest right now, from AI and insurance chatbots to platforms that lower fees and fragment how clinicians document their work. Burnout is not a personal failing, and sustainability is not something you can white-knuckle alone. This conversation makes the case for navigating the system as it is, a refusal to accept that it has to stay that way, and building community on purpose, through consultation groups, networks, and professional relationships, as one of the few reliable protections therapists have. It is honest company for a problem the profession has not solved, plus a look at the collective work that might eventually move it. In this episode, we discuss: - Why therapist burnout is a systemic problem, not an individual failing - How to hold the both/and of working within the system while working to change it - The four ways sustainability breaks down, and how to spot them in your own practice - Why moral injury and isolation can be harder to carry than sheer overwork - How consultation and community become a real strategy for sustainability - What collective action, including guild-style organizing, could eventually require Timestamps: - 01:17 - The principle: sustainability is a fundamental responsibility, and therapists are human first - 04:41 - Nine years in: why systemic burnout still isn't fixed - 06:47 - Martyrdom, sacrificial helping, and band-aiding a broken system - 10:21 - What years of burnout and advocacy episodes have taught us - 16:31 - Seductive corporate language and the insurance chatbot future - 20:33 - Four ways sustainability gets hindered - 23:36 - Isolation and strategically building community - 26:31 - Building the plane while flying it: delayed competence and shared trauma - 32:10 - No more therapist martyrdom, and a word from Audre Lorde Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

What It Means to Be a Modern Therapist: The Principles That Guide Our Work Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT, on the principles that define a sustainable, ethical, modern therapy practice. After nearly nine years and almost 500 episodes, Curt and Katie step back to name what the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide actually stands for. This episode lays out the guiding principles behind the show, the standards they hold and the practices they refuse, and reintroduces the hosts and the experience that shapes how they show up. Across nearly a decade of conversations, the same themes keep resurfacing. Therapists are human first, and neutrality is more myth than reality. Sustainability is a professional responsibility, not a luxury, which means martyrdom, self-sacrifice, and exploitative business models are no-goes rather than badges of dedication. Clinical depth matters more than ever in an era of influencer psychology, short-form content, and AI. Representation and inclusion strengthen the field, while gatekeeping and elitism weaken it. Systems shape practice in ways no amount of self-care can fix. Therapists are stewards of their own profession through advocacy, leadership, and calling each other in. And the work has to keep evolving, met with critical thinking rather than fear-based rejection or unexamined enthusiasm. Curt and Katie also explain why they are naming these principles now: to frame a run of upcoming deep dives that take these themes further with guests and conversations built to move past lip service. Taken together, the principles work less like a mission statement and more like a filter for the decisions therapists face every week, from which job to take to which trend to adopt and which one to let pass. Whether you have listened since the beginning or found the show last week, this is a clear look at where Curt and Katie are coming from, and an invitation to build a practice that is more human, more sustainable, and more connected to a community of therapists working through the same questions you are. In this episode, we discuss: - Why "therapists are human first" still matters in an era of corporate consolidation and AI - How to build a sustainable practice free from martyrdom - What keeps clinical depth relevant against influencer psychology and short-form content - Why representation, inclusion, and systems awareness strengthen the whole field - How therapists can act as stewards of the profession without shaming or policing - What it looks like to evolve with the field through critical thinking, not fear or hype Timestamps: - 00:15 - Nine years in: why this episode now - 02:54 - Curt and Katie reintroduce themselves - 06:46 - The modern therapist principles and no-goes - 07:09 - Therapists are human first - 10:26 - Sustainability as a fundamental responsibility - 12:49 - Clinical depth over simplification - 16:21 - Representation and inclusion strengthen the field - 18:57 - Systems shape practice - 20:49 - Therapists as stewards of the profession - 22:55 - Evolving with the field through critical thinking - 25:21 - An invitation to join the community Full show notes and resources: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Are We Really Better at Empathy Than the Bots? What the Research Says About AI in Therapy AI in therapy, therapy chatbots, and AI empathy: what the latest research actually says, and what it means for your clinical work. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT close out AI month by setting the hot takes aside and looking at what the research actually says about AI in mental health. They walk through the Dartmouth Therabot randomized controlled trial, where an expert-built, safety-monitored therapy chatbot outperformed a waitlist control, and a Communications Psychology study in which third-party raters judged AI-generated responses as more compassionate than those of expert human crisis responders. The findings are uncomfortable, and that's the point. In short in-the-moment exchanges, AI empathy can read as warmer than a human's, which is exactly the kind of result that makes therapists defensive. Curt and Katie talk through what these studies do and do not show, why a quick hit of empathy is not the same as a real therapeutic relationship, and the safety risks of consumer-grade chatbots that can validate delusions or miss a crisis. This is a conversation about staying credible instead of fearful: getting literate about AI therapy tools, talking with clients honestly about where these tools help and where they are dangerous, and leaning into the clinical depth, presence, and human connection that AI cannot fake. In this episode, we discuss: - What the Therabot trial really shows about AI therapy chatbots: better than a waitlist, not better than a human therapist - Why third-party raters judged AI as more compassionate than expert crisis responders - The difference between in-the-moment empathy and the long-term therapeutic relationship - How sycophancy and "context pollution" can make AI empathy feel good while keeping clients stuck - The safety risks of consumer-grade chatbots, and the regulation starting to address them - How to talk with clients about AI in a way that makes you more credible, not less Timestamps: 00:15 - Welcome and the two traps therapists fall into with AI 06:24 - The Therabot trial: AI therapy chatbots vs. a waitlist control 09:14 - Do people rate AI as more empathetic than human responders? 12:56 - Sycophancy, context pollution, and deceptive empathy 19:40 - Safety, crisis risk, and the regulation that is coming 26:27 - What people actually want in a crisis moment 35:45 - Be credible, not fearful: talking with clients about AI 37:40 - Deliver what AI can't fake: presence and clinical depth 41:36 - Closing: be aggressively human Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

How AI Tools for Therapists Are Built: Trust, Data Privacy, and Choosing What to Adopt - An Interview with Ian Knox and Megan Toomey Ian Knox and Megan Toomey of SimplePractice take therapists behind the scenes of how AI tools for mental health are actually built, trained, and kept secure. We're in the middle of AI month, and Curt and Katie wanted to move past the buzzwords and talk with the people who actually engineer this technology. As part of the show's partnership with SimplePractice, they sit down with Ian Knox, Chief Product Officer, and Megan Toomey, Sr. Director of Clinical Support AI Product Management, to pull back the curtain on how AI tools for therapists get designed, what "training the model" really means, and how client data is handled. They get specific about what to evaluate before adopting any AI tool, from vendor trust and HIPAA compliance to data practices, and why note taking is the most mature use case while insurance, scheduling, intake, and referral matching are still emerging. Ian and Megan also take on the fear that AI-first companies want to replace therapists, and explain why clinicians have to stay at the center of care and review anything they put their name on. This is a grounded, practical conversation for any therapist trying to decide what AI belongs in their practice, and what to be cautious about, without panic or hype. In this episode, we discuss: - How an EHR decides which clinician tasks AI is mature enough to help with - What to evaluate before trusting an AI vendor with client data - Why "HIPAA compliant" is a floor, not proof of strong security - What "training the model" does and does not mean, and why SimplePractice says it is not training an LLM on your data - How transcripts are retained, and the new opt-in for de-identified data - Why you remain responsible for every AI-assisted note you sign - How to talk with clients about AI and get meaningful consent Timestamps: 00:16 - AI month, and why we wanted to talk to people who build AI 01:33 - Who Ian and Megan are 03:21 - SimplePractice's history with AI tools 05:38 - What therapists should know when adding AI to a practice 08:44 - Where clinicians can streamline with AI 12:23 - How to choose which AI features to adopt 16:10 - Why you can't fully trust AI, and best practices 19:29 - What clinicians should know about their data 21:13 - The Trust Center, and "are you here to replace therapists?" 23:55 - How AI systems are trained (the puppy analogy) 27:00 - White-label LLMs and the "golden data set" 29:11 - De-identified transcripts and the opt-in 31:40 - Current tools and the product roadmap Guest bios: Ian Knox is Chief Product Officer at SimplePractice, with prior product leadership at Expedia and Microsoft. Megan Toomey is Sr. Director of Clinical Support AI Product Management at SimplePractice, leading the team building AI tools for behavioral health clinicians, with prior experience at Microsoft and Amazon. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/