Jacky Chou: Clone Indie Hacker Apps, Then Outrank Them on Google

E1184: Jacky Chou and David Quaid sit down for a wide-ranging conversation about where SEO still makes money in 2026, what Jacky would build today, and why he thinks most indie hackers leave huge opportunities on the table. Jacky's opening argument is simple: find SaaS products already making money, build a competing product, then use SEO and paid distribution to beat founders who know how to code but do not know how to market. From there, the conversation goes deep into SaaS, affiliate SEO, parasite SEO, Reddit, ChatGPT, listicles, backlinks, partial-match domains, offsite SEO, and what Jacky would do if he had to start from zero again. In this episode: - Why Jacky says SaaS is the biggest SEO opportunity right now - How he finds indie hacker apps with proven revenue, rebuilds the idea, and attacks the search demand around it - Why marketers now have an advantage when AI makes software much easier to build - How Jacky replaced a $600/month rank tracker with his own tool and sold it as a lifetime deal - Why he launches constantly instead of betting everything on one business - How some of his older income streams fell roughly 90%, and why that changed how he thinks about diversification - Why he believes traditional SEO display-ad sites have largely disappeared while affiliate SEO still works - Why "best X" and other buyer-intent searches still produce revenue even with AI Overviews - Why Jacky barely checks Google Search Console unless revenue drops - How he validates new products with paid ads instead of waiting for SEO - Why he thinks many AI SEO tools fail because their creators do not actually understand SEO - Why he says Reddit spam became much harder, and why buying established subreddits entered the playbook - How Jacky thinks Google's preference for high-authority sites creates more opportunities for parasite SEO - Why he believes listicles remain one of the strongest ways to influence what ChatGPT cites and recommends - Why he thinks ChatGPT and Google are becoming less dependent on the same underlying results - Why Jacky prefers partial-match domains and puts more energy into offsite SEO than onsite SEO - How David thinks about expired domains, backlinks, clicks, and authority - Why both of them think SEOs overcomplicate Google - What Jacky would do if he had to start over today - How he took a new iOS app from $0 to about $1,000/month in its first month through search - Why Jacky says the fastest way to learn SEO is to stop reading, start testing, and keep launching Jacky and David also get into the economics behind SEO software, Meta retargeting, programmatic SEO, site reputation abuse, Forbes, buyer's guides, and why execution beats waiting for the perfect idea. If you work in SEO, build software, run affiliate sites, or want to use search to launch your own products, this episode gives you a direct look at how Jacky Chou and David Quaid approach SEO in 2026. ⭐️ Jacky Chou on 𝕏 - https://x.com/indexsy  ⭐️ Jack Chou's website - https://jackychou.com/  ⭐️ Jacky Chou on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@indexsy  ⭐️ David Quaid on 𝕏 - https://x.com/DavidGQuaid  ⭐️ David Quaid on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidquaid/  ⭐️ David Quaid on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DavidQuaid  ⭐️ David Quaid's agency - https://primaryposition.com/  💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 Jackie and David Join 01:17 Biggest SEO Opportunity SaaS 05:35 Affiliate and Ads Reality 08:27 From Consulting to SaaS 13:08 AI Tools and Indie Hackers 17:28 Sprint Before AI Loop 24:15 Launch Fast and Iterate 26:18 Replacing Tools and Paid Ads 32:05 Google Spam and Parasites 34:43 Reddit Spam and Sub Markets 39:46 Buying Subreddits Pricing 42:39 Build vs Buy Communities 43:20 Buyer Guides vs Listicles 44:38 LLMs Splitting from Google 45:56 Spamming ChatGPT Citations 47:29 Forbes and Reputation Abuse 49:59 Entrepreneur Paths for Engineers 52:17 SEO Learn by Doing 54:22 Modern SEO Frameworks 56:12 Parasite SEO and Offsite Focus 01:00:22 Indexers and User Signals 01:04:39 Parasite Deals and Economics 01:09:07 Building Multiple Brands 01:13:04 Viral Growth and Fraud 01:19:04 Nord Tactic and Wrap Up The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/   #searchengineoptimization #seo #indiehackers #buildinpublic

E1183: ChatGPT is building more of its own search index, and that changes where SEO goes next. David G. Quaid joins me to break down what OpenAI appears to be doing, how its cached web content starts to function like an index, and what SEOs need to understand if ChatGPT relies less on Google and Bing over time. OpenAI has already discussed a long-term goal of serving most search traffic from its own first-party index. David explains why the change may already be happening: repeatedly fetching the same pages in real time costs too much, takes too long, and creates unnecessary dependence on traditional search engines. We get into: - Why ChatGPT's cache increasingly resembles its own search index - OpenAI's stated goal of serving more searches from first-party indexed content - Why the same small group of pages can receive tens of thousands of AI crawl requests - How Common Crawl fits into ChatGPT's search infrastructure - Why ranking #1 in Google does not automatically mean more visibility in ChatGPT - How LLMs use query fan-out to retrieve multiple documents - Why consensus across multiple sources matters more than being position #1 - How OpenAI could use Google for occasional quality checks instead of every search - Why OpenAI does not need to recreate Google's exact ranking order - Why Google's decades of spam-fighting experience still give it an advantage - How quickly OpenAI could copy major search-engine concepts once SEOs expose weaknesses - Why exact-match domains and separate satellite sites become interesting in AI search - How fabricated awards, press releases, and repeated claims across multiple websites influence AI answers - What the King of AEO experiments reveal about how easily AI systems accept manufactured consensus - Why targeting less competitive query fan-outs creates more opportunities - Why David still says doing strong Google SEO gives you the best foundation for AI visibility We also discuss another major change happening in SEO: traditional rank tracking is getting less reliable. Google's personalization and recent search changes increasingly create situations where rank trackers report positions that do not match what users actually see. David and I discuss why Google Search Console may become the real source of truth and why more SEOs may eventually build their own tracking systems around the Search Console API. Other topics include: - Whether traditional SERP trackers face an existential problem - Why impressions can fall while clicks stay flat - Google's increasing personalization of search results - Why newer SEOs suffer most when ranking data becomes less reliable - Why schema does not create authority simply because you declare an entity - Why Google's Knowledge Graph does not require schema to understand a person or brand - Why ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, and Perplexity produce very different answers despite working from overlapping web information - Why Google Images also prefers source diversity instead of showing one domain repeatedly The biggest takeaway: even if ChatGPT builds its own index, the fundamentals do not suddenly disappear. It still needs to discover pages, decide which sources belong in its retrieval set, compare competing claims, and synthesize an answer. Optimize for Google and you land the most simultaneous high-value wins. ⭐️ David Quaid on 𝕏 - https://x.com/DavidGQuaid  ⭐️ David Quaid on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidquaid/  ⭐️ David Quaid on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DavidQuaid  ⭐️ David Quaid's agency - https://primaryposition.com/  💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 LLMs Building Indexes 00:51 Crawl Inefficiency Signals 02:37 Caching Becomes Index 03:20 King Of AEO Experiments 05:24 Common Crawl Shift 07:42 OpenAI Index Evidence 10:00 Schema And Knowledge Graph 13:23 Authority Without Browser Data 18:50 SEO Spam And Digg Moment 21:35 Preparing For LLM Indexing 26:20 Rank Trackers Breaking 32:01 Flying Blind On ROI 35:01 Why This Episode 35:52 Guest Debate Fallout 36:15 LLMs Building Indexes 37:39 Why Reddit YouTube Drop 42:17 Caching Over Live Fetch 44:25 Consensus Not Ranking 46:11 Early AI Spam Loopholes 48:05 Google vs Gemini Output 48:56 Fake Awards Gray Hat 51:50 Calling Out GEO Grifters 55:23 SEO Agency Horror Story 59:19 Variance Across Sources 01:00:54 Wrap Up Next Episode The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/   #generativeengineoptimization #answerengineoptimization #searchengineoptimization #seo

E1182: AEO companies keep presenting old SEO tactics as if AI search invented them. Harpreet Singh joins me to break down what is actually different about AEO/GEO, what is simply traditional SEO with new terminology, and where companies are wasting time because they do not understand the history of search. We start with the tactics now getting promoted on AI search conference stages: keywords in URLs, FAQs, meta descriptions, paragraphs, press releases, solution pages, listicles, and other concepts SEOs have used for years. Harpreet explains why removing the historical context around these tactics leads companies to overuse them and damage their search strategy. Then we get into what is genuinely changing. Harpreet walks through how he analyzes query fan-out, including ChatGPT searches that use site: operators to pull information from Gartner, G2, Capterra, and other third-party sources. For some brands, optimizing those profiles matters more than publishing another page on their own site. We also talk about how difficult competitive AI visibility becomes when an LLM already associates established brands with a category. If a company spent 10 years being known as a mid-market product and suddenly wants to become an enterprise brand, changing a few pages will not rewrite that positioning. The company needs consistent signals across its own site, third-party profiles, reviews, media, creators, press, and search results. In this episode: - Why Harpreet says AEO companies are selling 2016 SEO - Old SEO tactics getting repackaged as new AI search tactics - Why SEO remains the foundation of AI visibility - What query fan-out actually changes about keyword research - Why Gartner, G2, Capterra, Reddit, YouTube, and other third-party sources matter - How to optimize third-party profiles for the positioning you want LLMs to understand - Why industry pages matter more as AI results become personalized - How Harpreet tracks prompts like keywords instead of tracking endless prompt variations - Why he ignores top-of-funnel AI citations that do not connect to revenue - How to attack hyper-competitive terms such as "best email marketing software" - Why solution pages and listicles still matter - How reviews, press releases, influencers, and outside websites create consensus around a brand - Why moving a brand from mid-market to enterprise creates an AI visibility problem - How New Balance can outrank Nike and Adidas with basic category-page SEO - Why enterprise SEO is often much worse than people assume - Why creator-led AEO still has an attribution problem - The simple "How did you hear about us?" field Harpreet uses to track AI-driven customers - Why cheap press releases still influence AI answers - Why AI search optimization remains a game of Whac-A-Mole - Why search optimization does not disappear even if AI companies build their own indexes The biggest point: AI search changes the surfaces and the retrieval process, but it does not erase the fundamentals. Relevance, authority, positioning, third-party validation, keyword targeting, internal linking, and strong pages still determine what gets found and trusted. Harpreet Singh joins me for a 90-minute breakdown of what serious AI search optimization looks like once you strip away the new labels. ⭐️ Harpreet Singh's Personal Site - https://harpsdigital.com   ⭐️ Harpreet on X - https://x.com/harpreetchatha_  ⭐️ Harpreet's Newsletter - https://seoespresso.com  ⭐️ Harpreet on LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/harpreetsingh8/  ⭐️ Harpreet on TikTok - https://tiktok.com/@seoharp  ⭐️ Harpreet on YouTube - https://youtube.com/@harpsdigital   💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 AEO and GEO Repackaging 01:27 Conference Speaker Concerns 04:14 Misleading Studies and Statistics 07:02 Debating AEO Tactics 08:47 Business Expansion Beyond AEO 10:57 Current AEO Sprint Work 13:24 Press Releases and Parasite SEO 15:41 Versus Pages Strategy 17:06 Industry Pages and Personalization 19:28 Query Fan Out Analysis 23:34 Profile Optimization Tactics 25:37 Award Winning Strategies 26:37 Brand Reviews Domain Tactic 28:13 Small Business Advantages 29:38 Tools and Tech Stack 30:34 Prompt Tracking Strategy 32:23 Hyper Competitive Keywords Approach 39:40 Brand Repositioning Challenges 43:26 AI Has Picked Winners 46:00 New Balance SEO Example 48:53 Fixing Page Copy 49:29 Internal Links Win 50:35 Enterprise SEO Fails 54:28 Why Copy Moves Rankings 56:29 Small Brands Need More 58:54 What AEO Talks Miss 01:00:34 Creator Led AEO ROI 01:07:27 Attribution Workarounds 01:09:10 Reputation and Affiliates 01:13:48 Small Business AEO Playbook 01:16:40 Press Releases Game AI 01:28:09 Why SEO Never Dies 01:29:41 Wrap Up and Where to Find The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/  #generativeengineoptimization #answerengineoptimization #searchengineoptimization #seo

E1181: I break down six SEO habits that marketers and site owners use to grow traffic without chasing a new tactic every week. These came from a popular SEO Growth subreddit thread where people shared the habits that made the biggest difference for them. I go through the best responses, explain why they work, and show you how to take each one further. In this episode: - Export Google Search Console data every month and study what Google tells you. Look at which queries generate impressions, where your pages rank, which pages get clicks, and where the gaps are. - Separate keywords into covered and uncovered opportunities. Covered keywords tell you which existing pages deserve updates. Uncovered keywords tell you what new pages to create. This also reduces unnecessary overlap between pages targeting similar searches. - Refresh old content instead of constantly publishing new pages. Update outdated information, tighten search intent above the fold, remove fluff, improve what comes next, and add relevant queries your page already ranks for. - Build backlinks every single week. Consistent link acquisition compounds. Journalist outreach, partnerships, link outreach, and other repeatable methods beat doing one huge link-building push every six months. - Use Google Search Console to find queries you rank for but never intentionally targeted. If a page sits on page two for a relevant search, add a section or paragraph that directly addresses that query. Google already sees the page as relevant. Give it a stronger reason to rank higher. - Study search results constantly. When you search Google, look at why certain pages rank above others. When you use ChatGPT or Claude, study which sources they cite and why. Over time, patterns become obvious. I also cover: - Why informational content keeps losing clicks even when impressions stay strong - How to spot pages that need an update - Why broken links and fading pages deserve regular attention - Why giving companies free SEO recommendations sometimes turns into paid work - How partnerships create recurring backlink opportunities - Why learning directly from SERPs beats blindly trusting tool scores ⭐️ The Reddit Thread - https://www.reddit.com/r/seogrowth/comments/1wh0yvq/whats_one_seo_habit_that_has_made_the_biggest/  ⭐️ Ep 787 - The #1 SEO Hack: Why Content Refreshes Beat New Content - https://youtu.be/UKvGmqzIxg4  ⭐️ Ep 1104 - The 1-Hour SEO Update That Makes Your Best Pages Rank for More Keywords - https://youtu.be/GmsAuotHGso  ⭐️ Ep 1160 - How To Get Free Backlinks in 2026 (Methods That Actually Work) - https://youtu.be/U-5VL9o9RGQ  ⭐️ Ep 1173 - The Internal Linking Trick That Uses Topical Authority You Already Have - https://youtu.be/2dPc80Z_DZk  ⭐️ AI SEO/GEO/AEO: How to Get Shown in LLMs in 2026 - https://edwardsturm.com/articles/ai-seo-geo-aeo-get-shown-llms-2026/  💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 Biggest SEO Habit 00:16 Monthly GSC Review 01:14 Covered vs Uncovered Keywords 01:45 Content Refresh Checklist 03:22 Weekly Backlink Outreach 04:40 Query Tweaks to Rank 05:27 Learn From Other Sites 07:37 Consistency and Internal Links 08:21 Partnership Link Exchanges 09:08 Wrap Up The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/   #searchengineoptimization #seo #digitalmarketing #performancemarketing

E1180: Google's September 2026 spam update is rolling out, and this one looks very different from the last few. The update started September 24 and is registering a 9.4/10 on Semrush's volatility tracker. Google Search Advocate John Mueller also confirmed that this spam update is expected to take longer than recent spam updates, with volatility potentially continuing for roughly two weeks. At the same time, a Google research paper about a system called SAFE started circulating across the SEO industry. SAFE stands for Scaled Abuse Forensic Examiner. Google describes it as an AI-driven anti-abuse system built to identify synthetic threats that traditional classifiers and manual review struggle to catch. The timing raises an obvious question: is SAFE connected to the September spam update? Google has not confirmed that. But the paper shows how far Google's anti-spam systems have moved beyond simply asking whether a page "looks AI-generated." I break down: - What Google's September 2026 spam update is - How this rollout is taking longer than recent spam updates - What I'm seeing across two very different websites - Why one bottom-of-funnel SaaS site dropped and quickly recovered - Why a top-of-funnel content site is still experiencing volatility - How Google's SAFE analyzes content, behavior, infrastructure, timing, and relationships between content producers - Why multimodal semantic embeddings matter - How Google is using specialized AI agents to investigate synthetic abuse - Why SAFE appears designed to catch new forms of spam that traditional classifiers miss - How this relates to Google's other 2026 AI spam detection research - Why some SEOs think the September update is catching spam missed by the August update - What SEOs are reporting across X and Reddit - Why thin programmatic SEO pages may be especially exposed - What to do if your Google Search Console data suddenly becomes volatile - Why I would wait for the rollout to finish before making drastic changes - The two things I would still check immediately on your most important pages - How bottom-of-funnel SEO tends to remain more stable through major updates The biggest point: do not panic and start rebuilding your site because rankings move during the rollout. Wait until the rollout ends. Always check whether your important pages are tightly relevant to the query. Make sure the keyword appears in the title, URL, H1, and opening sentence. Then make sure the page answers search intent immediately. Google's spam systems are getting more sophisticated. SAFE shows that Google is looking at far more than individual pages. It can analyze coordinated behavior, infrastructure, semantic patterns, content relationships, and signals across larger abuse networks. The September spam update is still rolling out, so we do not have the full picture yet. I'll continue covering what changes as more data comes in. ⭐️ SE Roundtable: Google September 2026 Spam Update - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-september-2026-spam-update-42163.html  ⭐️ SEMrush Volatility Tracker - https://www.semrush.com/sensor/  ⭐️ Search Engine Journal - https://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-has-deployed-a-new-ai-spam-detector-called-safe/590918/  ⭐️ Google's SAFE Research Paper (PDF) - https://storage.googleapis.com/gweb-research2023-media/pubtools/1039292.pdf  ⭐️ Barry Schwartz on 𝕏 (update rollout discussion) - https://x.com/rustybrick/status/2103161355561766957  ⭐️ 2026 September spam update on Reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/SEO/comments/1wp6ml7/google_search_central_on_x_today_we_released_the/  ⭐️ Ep 1083 - Google's New AI Spam Detector Could Wipe Out Entire SEO Networks - https://youtu.be/I78IQS99EwU  ⭐️ Ep 1153 - Google Can Detect Your AI Content. Here's What Happens Next. - https://youtu.be/G0qcfknUCcU  💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 September Spam Update Hits Hard 00:34 What Spam Updates Mean 01:24 How This Rollout Is Longer 02:16 Real Site Volatility Examples 03:18 SAFE Paper Goes Viral 05:00 How SAFE Detects Abuse 07:33 SAFE Technical Foundations 10:01 SEO Community Reactions 11:57 What To Do If Hit 12:31 Bottom of Funnel SEO Stability 13:56 Final Sign-Off The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/   #searchengineoptimization #seo #googlespamupdate #searchmarketing

E1179: PBNs still work in 2026, and Kalin Karakehayov has the numbers to back up why he thinks they remain one of the most underrated strategies in SEO. I'm joined by Kalin Karakehayov, Charles Floate, and David Quaid for a deep discussion on black hat SEO, private blog networks, aged domains, backlinks, AI search, parasite SEO, and where search is heading next. Kalin owns more than 200,000 domains and operates a PBN of roughly 30,000 websites. He explains why PBNs have become easier to operate than they were a decade ago, why his network doesn't need organic traffic to pass value, and how he evaluates domains based on strength, relevance, history, and geography. Charles and David push the discussion further into how agencies could build private networks of their own, why backlinks remain fundamental to ranking, and why so many SEOs have moved away from link building even though links still drive results. Then the conversation moves into AI search. Kalin explains his research into Common Crawl and harmonic centrality, a link metric based on proximity across the web rather than the traditional PageRank model. He lays out a theory for using domains with high harmonic centrality to increase crawling and potentially increase the chances of websites entering AI training data. Charles explains how Common Crawl data can also be reverse engineered to find valuable domains and connections between websites, and the group discusses what this means for GEO, AI citations, brand associations, and the future value of aged domains. We also get into: - Why Kalin believes PBNs are underrated in 2026 - How a 30,000-site PBN works without ranking the individual sites - PBNs vs. public link farms - Why private networks are harder for Google to identify - Why backlinks without traffic still pass value - How Kalin evaluates aged and expired domains - Exact-match domains and partial-match domains - Why valuable domains keep getting more expensive - PageRank vs. harmonic centrality - Common Crawl and AI training data - How domains could influence AI visibility - Charles' approach to reverse engineering Common Crawl - The danger of negative SEO in AI search - Why the internet increasingly becomes a fight for digital territory - The ultra-high-quality vs. ultra-low-quality content strategy - Why Kalin thinks websites stuck in the middle face the biggest problem - How Charles chooses between Google, YouTube, AI search, and other channels - Using parasite SEO to test markets before investing heavily - How Charles would approach a new website with a limited budget - Building the entire core of a site before launch - When to start building links - Why SEO risk isn't as simple as "white hat" vs. "black hat" - Why Charles focuses on ROI instead of labels This is a wide-ranging conversation about what actually works in SEO, how black hat SEOs think about risk and assets, and how those strategies are evolving as search expands beyond Google into AI. ⭐️ Kalin Karakehayov on 𝕏 - https://x.com/Karakehayov  ⭐️ Kalin Karakehayov on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/karakehayov  ⭐️ Kalin Karakehayov on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kalin.karakehayov/  ⭐️ Kalin Karakehayov on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/karakehayov  ⭐️ SEO.Domains (domains and backlinks) - https://seo.domains  ⭐️ GigaLinks (AI SEO and citations) - https://gigalinks.com  ⭐️ SEO.BO (SEO agency) - https://seo.bo  ⭐️ I Grow Younger - https://i.gy  ⭐️ I Grow Younger on YouTube - https://youtube.com/@growyounger  ⭐️ Charles Floate's community - https://seo.stream  ⭐️ Charles Floate on 𝕏 - https://x.com/Charles_SEO  ⭐️ Charles Floate on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesfloate/  ⭐️ Charles Floate on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@CharlesFloate  ⭐️ Charles Floate on Facebook - https://facebook.com/thecharlesfloate   ⭐️ David "The King" Quaid on 𝕏 - https://x.com/DavidGQuaid  ⭐️ David "The King" Quaid on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidquaid/  ⭐️ David "The King" Quaid on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DavidQuaid  ⭐️ David "The King" Quaid's agency - https://primaryposition.com/  💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 Meet The Panel 00:39 Are PBNs Underrated 02:04 PBN Risks And Footprints 04:25 Shared PBNs And EMDs 07:24 Zero Traffic PBN Math 10:40 Buying And Assessing Domains 12:38 Backlinks Culture Wars 16:34 AI Search Makes Domains Pricier 19:28 Harmonic Centrality For LLMs 22:35 Testing Common Crawl Strategies 27:44 Token Engineering And Negative SEO 31:20 Economics Of Link Inflation 34:28 Stop Debating Start Building 41:03 Territory Mindset And AI Agents 44:21 Search Opportunity And Click Economics 46:38 Cheap Sites With AI 47:29 Budget Question Reframed 47:48 Ultra High vs Low 50:43 Channel First Planning 54:10 MVP Zero To 100 56:26 Build To Exit 58:26 Career Moves And Networking 01:00:59 Comfort Zone Duality 01:04:51 Safe But Dangerous 01:10:31 Hedging With Parasites 01:12:09 Sell Links As Hedge 01:18:44 Scale Like A Commodity 01:21:36 Minimum Viable SEO 01:23:41 Where To Find Them 01:25:47 Podcast Wrap Up The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/   #blackhatseo #searchengineoptimization #privateblognetwork #seo

E1177: Ross Hudgens of Siege Media breaks down the page type driving the most AI search traffic across his clients: versus pages. Ross says Siege Media's correlation analysis found that clients with the most AI traffic also had the most comparison and versus content. We get into why these pages perform so well across ChatGPT, Gemini, Google, and traditional search, how to structure them, and why most companies still execute them poorly. We also go deep on branded subreddits, Reddit SEO, AI search measurement, link building, digital PR, keyword research, content refreshes, publisher traffic declines, and how SEO strategy is changing as more searches end without a click. In this episode: - Why versus pages are driving so much AI search traffic - Why comparison pages belong on landing pages instead of blogs - Where to put comparison tables - How to write versus pages without turning them into templated SEO garbage - How to choose which competitors deserve comparison pages - Why three-way comparisons sometimes work - How versus pages support sales teams beyond SEO - Why companies struggle to publish honest competitor comparisons - Using YouTube influencers when a brand refuses to publish comparison content itself - Why branded subreddits matter for SEO, reputation management, and LLM visibility - When a company has enough branded search demand to justify its own subreddit - How little traction a branded subreddit needs before it starts ranking - Why Reddit still matters even as its AI citation share changes - Repurposing existing website content onto Reddit - Using branded communities to rank for review and reputation queries - Why Siege Media does less manual link building than it did years ago - Where link-building budget is moving instead - Why fewer niche bloggers exist today - The growing role of LinkedIn, YouTube, influencers, and UGC in search - Why backlinks still matter even as the open web shrinks - How Siege Media approaches digital PR differently today - Using proprietary data across multiple existing ranking pages - Why recurring annual and quarterly data studies compound over time - How publishers need to rethink monetization as AI takes top-of-funnel clicks - Why publishers still hold valuable influence inside LLM answers - The problem with treating Perplexity like it has the same importance as ChatGPT - How Ross measures AI search and GEO performance - Why "How did you hear about us?" remains one of the strongest attribution questions - The AI search tracking tools Siege Media uses - How third-party citations influence LLM visibility - Why generic "best overall" positioning often fails - How LLMs categorize brands into specific use cases - Siege Media's KOB keyword research framework - How Ross now adds LLM visibility into keyword prioritization - How to decide whether a keyword deserves a new page - Why top-of-funnel informational SEO keeps getting harder - The types of informational content that still defend their clicks from AI Ross has spent more than 14 years building Siege Media and working across SEO, content marketing, link building, digital PR, and now AI search. This conversation gets into what Siege Media is doing more of in 2026, what it has reduced, and where Ross thinks search is moving next. ⭐️ Ross Hudgens on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosshudgens/  ⭐️ Ross Hudgens on 𝕏 - https://x.com/RossHudgens  ⭐️ Ross Hudgens' book, Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO - https://www.amazon.com/Generative-Engine-Optimizations-Ross-Hudgens/dp/1394439806  ⭐️ Siege Media Book page - https://www.siegemedia.com/geo-book  💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 Meet Ross Hudgens 00:30 Siege Media Origin Story 00:56 Versus Pages Win AI 07:07 Comparison Page Blueprint 09:54 Avoid Templated Comparisons 13:33 Branded Subreddit SEO 15:48 Republishing Content on Reddit 25:05 Less Manual Link Building 26:48 LinkedIn and Social Signals 33:58 Digital PR Data Strategy 40:27 Publisher Survival in AI Era 44:33 Measure GEO and AI Traffic 46:54 AI Long Tail Traffic 48:03 Tools For Measuring 48:27 Citation Share Strategy 50:16 New Client Audit 51:02 Common SEO Mistakes 53:23 Versus Pages Limits 54:05 KOB Keyword Framework 55:46 LLM Visibility Signals 57:52 New Page Or Update 01:00:54 Rank Position Eight To One 01:02:10 AI Content UX Fails 01:05:24 When To Refresh Content 01:09:00 Reddit And Offsite SEO 01:14:49 Site Structure Mapping 01:17:01 CRO Is GEO 01:18:36 Prompt Tracking Mistakes 01:20:05 Influencing LLM Answers 01:21:35 AI Slop Sites Fade 01:24:38 Hallucination Story 01:29:17 Using AI As Partner 01:30:23 Schema And LLMs Txt 01:33:32 Quick Wins And Wrap Up The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/   #generativeengineoptimization #answerengineoptimization #searchengineoptimization #seo

E1177: Google just changed how its parasite SEO penalty works across Europe, but the headline leaves out the most important part. I break down Google's change to its Site Reputation Abuse Policy inside the European Economic Area and explain what it means for parasite SEO, publishers, affiliate sites, and SEOs trying to rank through high-authority domains. The European Commission challenged Google over its treatment of publisher sections containing sponsored, commercial, and third-party content. Google responded by changing how its manual site reputation abuse actions affect searchers inside the EEA. As of August 30, the manual-action impact no longer applies to users searching from the European Economic Area, which includes the 27 EU countries plus Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein. That sounds like a massive win for parasite SEO. There's a catch. Google says it may separate the affected section of a website from the rest of the domain inside its ranking systems. That means a parasite section might avoid the manual penalty while also losing the authority it previously inherited from the host website. In this episode: - What parasite SEO means - Why Reddit provides such a simple example of parasite SEO - Why the EU challenged Google's Site Reputation Abuse Policy - What changed for searchers inside the European Economic Area - Why the United States, United Kingdom, and other non-EEA markets still operate under the existing penalty system - How Forbes Advisor became one of the clearest examples of publisher parasite SEO - How Forbes ranked for commercial terms across insurance, finance, VPNs, home services, health, and other industries - What happened after Google started enforcing its site reputation abuse rules - Why removing the manual penalty does not mean parasite SEO gets a free pass - How Google plans to separate third-party sections from the authority of the main domain - Why subfolders and subdomains matter - Why Forbes using forbes[.]com/advisor matters to this discussion - Why Google's section-level authority separation will determine how big this change really becomes - Why the EEA search results may look very different from US and UK search results - Why implementation will likely create unusual opportunities and inconsistencies - What SEOs are saying about the change - Why this matters more for publishers than social platforms like Reddit, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn I also explain why the real SEO story here is not simply "Google stopped penalizing parasite SEO." The real question is whether Google successfully identifies commercial third-party sections and prevents those sections from inheriting the full ranking authority of the host domain. If Google gets that right, the manual penalty matters a lot less. If Google struggles with it, EEA search results could get very interesting. I finish the episode with community reactions and my take on what SEOs need to watch next. ⭐️ Google: Update to the Site Reputation Policy - https://developers.google.com/search/blog/2026/08/update-site-reputation-policy  ⭐️ Charles Floate on 𝕏 - https://x.com/Charles_SEO/status/2093229846013137123  ⭐️ Lars Lofgren: Forbes Marketplace - https://larslofgren.com/forbes-marketplace/  ⭐️ Browser Media: The Downfall of Parasite SEO and Google's Site Reputation Abuse Update - https://browsermedia.agency/blog/the-downfall-of-parasite-seo-and-googles-site-reputation-abuse-update/  ⭐️ European Commission: Investigation into Google Demoting Media (Digital Markets Act) - https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/commission-opens-investigation-potential-digital-markets-act-breach-google-demoting-media  💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 Parasite SEO Explained 00:49 EU Rule Change 02:00 Forbes Advisor Case 03:45 EEA Penalty Removed 04:59 Authority Separation Nuance 06:31 What Changes In Search 07:15 Community Reactions 08:06 Impact On Social Platforms 10:00 Episode Wrap Up The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/   #searchengineoptimization #parasiteseo #digitalpublishing #seo

E1176: Breaking down legal SEO - specifically search engine optimization that makes money for personal injury law firms. I talk with Lindsey Busfield of Optimize My Firm about how her team approaches SEO exclusively for personal injury law firms. We get into the pages that make money, how to structure a legal website, how law firms build authority, what drives Google Maps rankings, and why reviews matter so much for personal injury firms. We also break down how Lindsey's team earns backlinks through scholarships, local organizations, news coverage, original studies, and even a $75,000 Guinness World Record campaign. Topics include: - How to structure a personal injury law firm's website around practice areas, locations, and increasingly specific case types - Why longer-tail legal pages often rank faster and support more competitive parent pages - Which legal SEO pages generate the highest-value signed cases - How to avoid thin or repetitive location pages by making each page specific to the city - Why Lindsey builds links to useful studies and linkable assets instead of pointing every backlink directly at money pages - How scholarship campaigns generate links from schools and local organizations - How to create newsworthy campaigns that earn local press and backlinks - How Lindsey's team finds journalists and pitches stories personally - Why branded mentions still matter even when a news outlet refuses to add a backlink - Why good legal content needs human writers who understand the subject - Lindsey's process for finding writers and why she says she goes through roughly 500 candidates to find a great one - Why her team does not use AI-generated content on law firm websites - How attorney photos, personal branding, and consistent messaging increase trust and conversions - Why law firms should make phone numbers, forms, and other contact options immediately accessible - How Google reviews affect local visibility and lead volume - Why review recency matters alongside review quantity and rating - The three factors Lindsey focuses on for Google Maps: reviews, organic rankings, and proximity - How personal injury firms expand their Maps presence with legitimate satellite offices - Why incorrect Google Business Profile categories and inconsistent address information hurt local SEO - How to find bottom-of-funnel legal keywords instead of chasing informational traffic - How to use the Google Sheets AI function to filter large keyword lists for commercial intent - Why legal SEO still matters as AI search grows - How reviews, podcasts, YouTube, directories, rankings, and a broader digital footprint influence how people and AI systems understand a law firm Lindsey also explains why personal injury SEO has such high stakes: some cases are worth tens of thousands of dollars, while others reach into tens of millions. The goal is not simply rankings or traffic. The goal is getting the right prospective client to trust the firm, make contact, and sign. ⭐️ Lindsey Busfield's agency, Optimize My Firm - https://optimizemyfirm.com/  ⭐️ Lindsey Busfield's Podcast - https://optimizemyfirm.com/podcasts/  ⭐️ Lindsey Busfield's book - https://optimizemyfirm.com/leads-book/  ⭐️ Lindsey Busfield on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsey-busfield  💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 Legal SEO Kickoff 00:15 Lindsay's Unusual Path 01:37 Niche Focus PI SEO 01:55 Link Building Strategy 03:21 Types of Backlinks 03:50 Compact Keywords Ad 05:00 Scholarship Link Outreach 06:41 Creative Scholarship Ideas 07:30 Newsworthy Link Campaigns 08:05 Guinness Event Breakdown 10:44 Cheaper PR Alternatives 11:25 Pitching Journalists Right 14:26 Cases That Earn Press 16:49 First 30 Days SEO Plan 17:44 Tracking Tools Stack 18:21 WordPress Elementor Build 20:00 Site Hierarchy Silos 21:39 Internal Links Breadcrumbs 22:20 Conversion Focused Pages 24:17 Clean URL Structure 25:44 Natural Writing Beats Stuffing 28:05 Hiring Training Writers 29:06 Writer Screening System 29:47 Screening Writer Applicants 31:24 AI Policy for Legal Writing 33:02 Money Pages and Local SEO 35:35 Linkable Assets Strategy 36:22 Bios and Trust Signals 42:01 AI Recommendations and Footprint 43:59 Reviews That Drive Leads 46:24 Bottom Funnel Keyword Research 49:20 Local Pack Ranking Factors 51:14 Maps Expansion and Mistakes 53:39 Bad Content and Spam Links 54:58 Future of Legal SEO 56:47 Where to Find Lindsay 57:50 Wrap Up and Next Episode The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/  #legalseo #legalmarketing #searchengineoptimization #seo

E1175: Most SEOs know how to rank websites. Far fewer know how to sell that skill. Blair Witkowski joins to break down how he sells SEO services without leading with the word "SEO." Instead, he talks about phone calls, missed leads, competitors showing up in ChatGPT, and money the business owner leaves on the table. Blair walks through his sales process from the first cold call to the signed client, including the exact research he does before calling, how he gets prospects to agree to a Loom audit, how he follows up, and what he sells once the prospect says yes. We cover: - Why Blair avoids talking about SEO during sales calls - How he sells "more phone calls" instead of rankings - How he uses ChatGPT and AI visibility as the opening problem - How he builds prospect lists by niche and location - What he checks on a website before making the call - Why he looks at the website footer before spending more time on a prospect - How he finds problems within seconds instead of spending 30 minutes researching every lead - How directories give him a reason to contact businesses - The cold-call opening he uses with local businesses - How he gets past gatekeepers without asking for the owner - Why he researches the business before calling - How he ties every technical problem back to lost revenue - The role Claude audits, GeoGrids, SplashDash, BBB listings, reviews, and competitor research play in his pitch - How he gets roughly one Loom audit from every 20-25 cold calls - What he shows inside the Loom without overwhelming the prospect - Why he sends the Loom almost immediately after the call - Why multiple Loom views signal serious interest - How he follows up without saying "just following up" - Why he keeps contacting prospects for months or even years - The prospect who saved one of his cold emails for almost a year before hiring him - Why Blair sends Starbucks cards, books, cookies, DoorDash, and other gifts during follow-up - Why he treats every prospect who agrees to an audit like a future client - How he reports a roughly 42% close rate after prospects agree to a Loom audit - How he uses simple spreadsheets to track prospects and follow-ups - What he charges for local SEO clients - Why $1,800-$3,500 per month represents his main pricing range - How some clients reach $6,500 per month - What he delivers at lower, middle, and higher monthly retainers - Why higher tiers include more websites, Google Business Profiles, links, sponsorships, content, and local assets - Why he sometimes pays for links and local sponsorships out of the monthly retainer - Why communication matters after the sale just as much as getting the result Blair also explains why business owners rarely care about SEO terminology. They care about missed calls, missed jobs, competitors taking business, and whether their marketing produces revenue. If you know how to rank websites but struggle to consistently get clients, this episode gives you a complete look at how one agency owner approaches prospecting, sales, follow-up, pricing, and fulfillment. ⭐️ Blair Witkowski's Personal Site - https://blairwitkowski.com/  ⭐️ Blair Witkowski's SEO Agency - https://coastalmarketingstrategies.com/  ⭐️ Blair Witkowski on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@TheGarageDoorPodcast  ⭐️ Blair Witkowski on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/blairwitkowski/  ⭐️ Blair Witkowski on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/blairwitkowski/  💎 Compact Keywords - My SEO Course - Get paying customers through SEO - Clear step-by-step video breakdowns - SEO templates to be copied and adapted for your products and services: https://compactkeywords.com/  00:00 Sales Episode Kickoff 01:10 Why SEOs Stay Broke 02:50 Offer That Clicks 03:16 Directory Cold Call Hook 05:31 Cold Call Research Stack 07:12 Gatekeepers And Openers 09:18 Loom Audit Pitch 12:39 Sell AI Phone Calls 16:28 Prospecting And Follow Up 19:11 Directories Best Of Plays 21:22 Live Electrician Call Script 25:31 Pricing And Deliverables 32:52 Loom Audit Structure 37:09 What To Fix In Loom 40:04 Live Audit Proof Points 40:49 Loom Follow Up System 42:26 Tracking Views And CRM 44:08 Pricing And Service Tiers 48:50 Higher Tier Trust Signals 52:48 Global Selling With Accents 57:17 Handling SEO Company Objection 01:00:27 When To Stop Following Up 01:02:40 Lead Sources And Call Volume 01:06:11 Hiring Callers And Directories 01:09:48 Client Win Stories 01:15:07 Scaling Out Of Operations 01:17:21 No Small Talk Cold Calls 01:19:06 Charge More Final Advice The Edward Show. Your daily search engine optimization podcast: https://edwardsturm.com/the-edward-show/   #searchengineoptimization #generativeengineoptimization #seo #digitalmarketing