Sheltering in Place in Sydney: What AJC's Moshe Lencer Witnessed at Bondi Beach the Day After an Antisemitic Massacre

Once considered a haven for Jews, Australia is reeling after a deadly Hanukkah terror attack at Bondi Beach left 15 dead—the tragic outcome of skyrocketing hate. AJC Asia Pacific Institute Associate Director Hana Rudolph joins the podcast to unpack the crisis, revealing that despite over 2,000 antisemitic incidents in the year following October 7, the government dropped the ball. Hana details how political inaction and a fear that "supporting Jews is not politically popular" have allowed extremism to fester. She criticizes the delay in implementing the recommendations set forth by Australia's Special Envoy to Combat Antisemitism, noting the government's failure to move beyond basic security measures. Listen as she explains why global pressure is now urgent to ensure Australia takes this massive gap seriously before more lives are lost. Resources: What To Know About the Antisemitic Terror Attack in Sydney Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:    For more than 30 years, American Jewish Committee's Asia Pacific Institute has found Australia to be a nation that has stood shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish people and Israel. But that sense of steadfast support has started to fray as antisemitism has risen exponentially. The massacre at Bondi Beach on the first night of Hanukkah was only the latest and deadliest in a string of antisemitic incidents over the past two years. Here to discuss how we got here is Hana Rudolph, associate director of AJC's Asia Pacific Institute. Hana, welcome to People of the Pod.  Hana Rudolph: Thank you so much for having me.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   Well, I want to ask you first, can you kind of introduce our listeners to the Australian Jewish community? How many people are we talking about? What is their history in Australia? Hana Rudolph: The Australian Jewish community is one of the most historic, long standing communities in the Asia Pacific. It dates back to 1788. So we're talking 18th century over 100,000 Jews. They're a diverse community. They reside primarily in the cities of Melbourne and Sydney, but they range in terms of practice, in terms of political views, similar to as we see in Europe or the US. There's some level of debate in terms of what, what percentage of the population it comprises, but somewhere between .5- 1% of the population. Manya Brachear Pashman:   And has Australia been a friendly country for the Jewish community for all of that time, and at least until recently?  Hana Rudolph: Yeah, absolutely. It has been a deep, close friend of Israel. Israeli diplomats have described Australia as an even closer partner to Israel at the UN and in other global forums than even the US. Jews have been living there for centuries, and have oftentimes described Australia as being like a haven. No matter the antisemitism that increases in Europe or in the US, Australia has been safe. It is the one place besides Israel, where they feel they can live in security. So the surge in antisemitism we've seen, especially since October 7, has just been so much more alarming and frightening and shocking for the community, because they just haven't seen incidents at this level anytime prior.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   What is it about Australia's community? I mean, I know that there's been a lot of emphasis on a kind of, give everyone a fair go, right? There's a lot of emphasis on equality. Is that what guides this kind of welcoming atmosphere? Or why are they such good friends with Israel? Is there something about the culture?  Hana Rudolph: Yeah, Australia takes a lot of pride in its multiculturalism, the harmony and diversity, social cohesion, so they've placed a lot of emphasis on that in terms of, like, the national culture, and I think that's part of what's led to such a safe, thriving space for the Jewish community for so long until now. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So what changed? Hana Rudolph: Million dollar question, right? October 7. It's really important to note that, you know, there have been threads of antisemitism from well before October 7, right? Things don't just happen overnight. And in the Hamas attack took place on October 7, before Israel had even begun its defensive war to recover the hostages and to complete its aims, on October 9, there was a massive protest in front of the Sydney Opera House, and people were yelling, were holding signs, yelling slogans of, where is the Jews, F the Jews. Some accounts of them saying, gas the Jews.  I mean, we're talking about, there's no linkage here of like, Israel's counter defensive war. It's simply about terrorists attacked Israel. Now is a good time for us to talk about like, go find and hunt down the Jews. So October 7 was the trigger. But in the years since, there has been what the Australian Jewish community has really pointed to, a failure of the Australian Government to take the concerns of antiSemitism seriously. So in the year following October 7, there were over 2000 incidents of antiSemitism, which, if you if you break it down by day like it's horrific, especially when you think about the fact that the Jewish community primarily resides in two cities. So we're talking about 2000 incidents over two cities, primarily.  And then in this last year, it was over 1600 incidents. And the Australian government has sought to be responsive. In many ways. They've done $30 million grants for security. They have committed to restoring synagogues that were fire bombed and all of that. But in a lot of ways that matter, kind of going beyond just simply police protection, but more about how do you fundamentally change the way that a society thinks about its Jewish community? They've really dropped the ball and we're seeing the impact of that now.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   What efforts have been made on the part of the Jewish community to change that? In other words, what advocacy have we seen from Australian Jews and their partners?  Hana Rudolph: They've done everything we can, right, like in this they the Australian Jewish community is well established. They operate very similarly to European Jewish communities or American Jewish communities. So they have both umbrella organizations, and they also have advocacy organizations that run the gamut in terms of political viewpoints. AJC's partner organization, AJAC, the Australia Israel Jewish Affairs Council, has been very active in this space. And they have sought to work with leaders in both Maine political parties to call for various reforms. There has been a special envoy that was appointed by the government, which we laud in July 2024 in July 2025 she released a report containing about 50 recommendations for whole of society action, so some highest levels of government going all the way down to society, museums, media, schools, other institutes and just nothing has been done with the report.  The government has not considered it. It has not acted on the recommendations, and we're talking about five months since that report was released. The Jewish community has really sought to emphasize that this is not simply a reaction to understandable public concerns about Israel's foreign policy, but rather, there is a deeper issue of antisemitism going on that the government needs to take seriously, and that's really where we're seeing just inaction. Manya Brachear Pashman:  We talk a lot here at AJC about the sources of antiSemitism from the right, from the left, from Islamist sources. Where is it coming from? Primarily in Australia?  Hana Rudolph: Yeah, it's a really interesting question, especially in Melbourne. My understanding is that the protests that were taking place weekly until the cease fire, and even now it's continued on, but it's morphed a little bit. But those weekly protests were drawing in, similar to what we see in the US, both the far left, people wearing keffiyehs, people calling for Palestinian rights. The same as we see in the US, and then also people on the far right. So it does draw an interesting mix of political views, united in their hatred of Jews and Israel. Manya Brachear Pashman:   And what about Islamist sources? Is that separate? Hana Rudolph: Yeah, so especially cities like Melbourne, that is part of the challenge. Melbourne has a high Muslim population. In all of Australia there, the Muslim population is something like 3% but it's one of the largest growing demographics. And in places like Melbourne, I don't know the number offhand, but it has a significantly larger impact on in terms of demographics, in terms of like, how politicians think about their voting, and so that's why you see Australian Jewish leaders pointing to like Alex rivchin from The Executive Council of Australian Jewry, has talked publicly about supporting Jews is not politically popular. Politicians aren't willing to risk that support because of the political costs they see, I think, primarily from Muslim voters. So Melbourne, especially where the protests have been particularly violent. Obviously, this took place in Sydney, so the violence is happening there too. But in Melbourne, where we've seen protests that turned violent previously, too, there's been real concern about the Muslim population. They're kind of feeding that. The Executive Council of Australian Jewry recently won a lawsuit. Within the last year, won the lawsuit against a Muslim clergy member who was in November 2023 so we're talking one month after the Hamas terrorist attacks. So one month later, he was doing a series of lectures describing Jews as pigs, as treacherous, like all these kinds of horrific caricatures. And so thankfully, this lawsuit, the Jewish community won. But this is the kind of situation, and that's one example, and maybe a more extreme example, but these are the kinds of situations that the community is running up against.  Also in February 2024 there was a viral video of two Muslim nurses talking about how they would kill any Jews who were their patient, or Israeli or Israelis who were there. I'm sorry, I don't actually know what I just said. There was a video. There was a video that went viral of two Muslim nurses talking about how they would kill any Jewish or Israeli patients that they had and that they had already, was the insinuation as well. And so the lawsuit is ongoing for them, but they have faced criminal charges. They have had their licenses revoked, but there was also significant Muslim community pushback to the consequences that they face, which is also really alarming and disturbing. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Of the 49 recommendations that were mentioned in the special envoy's report, Which ones do you think should be the priority going forward? You can't implement them all at once. Hana Rudolph: There's a lot of overlap between what the antisemitism envoy Jillian Siegel has recommended in her report, and what has been recommended through things like the Global Guidelines for Countering Antisemitism, which AJC supports. So I would say things like the enforcement of hate crime that's a huge priority. There are various ways in which the special envoys plan notes how Australia's law enforcement can deepen their efforts. And I think there is, there is some positive there is some positive movement to that end. Now, following this attack, there was an announcement following the recent cabinet meeting of the Australian Prime Minister and his cabinet talking about a hate crime database and so forth. So these are positive things we're also highlighting from the Special Envoys report, things like engaging social media, countering the disturbing narratives that we see there, and establishing better standards. And then also education, and I think that's a really core point. So how do you promote Holocaust education, antisemitism education and so forth and that we need the government's help, but also it can be done through other institutions as well. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Can you kind of share, kind of what AJC's advocacy, what you've learned, and what is AJC hearing and doing for Australia? Hana Rudolph:  I mean, I think the number one takeaway that Ted [Deutch] and Shira [Lowenberg] had after visiting Australia, and they visited Melbourne, Canberra and Sydney. Canberra being the capital. Was just the the other shock at how much the community has been shaken by this massive spike in incidents. I think the last year's total of over 2000 incidents was something like three times higher than the previous year. So we're really talking about a spike. So just the shock that the Jewish community is facing and reeling from. And the sense from government and law enforcement that the only reaction needs to be about keeping them safe. So in terms of like, the protests that were happening weekly in Melbourne, the government's response was to encourage the Jewish community to stay at home, to not go into the city center where the protests were taking place for their own safety, as opposed to how, like, how do you protect free speech, of course, but also you don't allow it to reach A level where you're concerned about a Jewish person's safety if they come close to the protest.  And similarly, just all of these measures that the Australian government has taken has really focused on security, you know, putting money towards law enforcement and and so forth, which is good, but nowhere near enough in terms of changing the slurs, the vandalism, the the arson attacks that has that have been on the rise over the past couple of years. So I think that was the first and primary takeaway that you know this, this massive gap between where the community is and how the government is responding.  And in terms of AJC's advocacy, we're really trying to amplify the Australian Jewish community's message here, which is exactly that, that there is not enough being done. The problem is immense, and the government needs to take this seriously. This is not so easy as just putting some money towards security, but we need to go much further. And why is this report from the antiSemitism envoy appointed by the government sitting there for five months without any recommendations being considered or implemented. So things like this, we're we're amplifying that message, not just to Australian diplomats and leaders that we have connections with, but also in the US, because the US Australia relationship is so important, and we know that the US administration cares about antisemitism, and they care about antisemitism abroad, so we're working in close coordination with the White House, with state, to make sure that Canberra also hears this message from the US. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Hana, thank you so much for joining us.  Hana Rudolph:  Thank you, Manya. It's a pleasure to join you.

AJC Director of Campus Affairs Moshe Lencer was on his first visit to Australia when the unimaginable happened. Hours after he enjoyed the sun at Sydney's Bondi Beach, it became the site of an antisemitic terrorist attack, leaving 15 people, including a child and a Holocaust survivor, dead. Moshe recounts attending a student leadership shabbaton, in partnership with Australia's Union for Jewish Students (AUJS), and the immediate aftermath on the ground—a mix of helplessness and resolve—and the powerful scene at Bondi Beach the following day, as Jews and non-Jews gathered to mourn and show solidarity. Reflecting on the rise of antisemitism in Australia, Moshe—speaking as an outsider to the community—underscores the guiding principle of Australian Jews at this moment: "If we stop celebrating Jewish identity, it means they won."  Resources: What To Know About the Antisemitic Terror Attack in Sydney Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:     As the sun began to set in Australia on Sunday, more than 1000 gathered on Bondi Beach in Sydney to celebrate the first night of Hanukkah by the Sea, but at about 6p m, terrorists fired into the crowd, killing at least 15 and wounding dozens more. Students with the Australasian union of Jewish students had just wrapped up a Shaba tone before they headed to Bondi Beach and our own AJC, Director of Campus affairs, Moshe Lencer, whom we affectionately call Moosh, was there with him shortly before the attack, and he's with us now. Moosh, welcome to people of the pod. Moshe Lencer:     Thank you for having me.  Manya Brachear Pashman:     Well, I wish it were under very different circumstances. How are you doing and how are the students doing that you are spending time with there? Moshe Lencer:     It's a wonderful question, and the more I think about it, the less I have a clear answer. It's a combination of helplessness, and in the same time, desire towards hope and trying to figure how to move through this very dark time. The last 24 hours, a little bit more than that have been very interesting is this has been my first time ever in Australia. I landed here Friday morning. Right now, for context, it's Monday night, and until about 6pm on Sunday, it was a very pleasant, positive experience, filled with moments of Jewish pride and joy. The reason I'm in Australia, even in this moment, is time, is AJC has a partnership with the Austra Asian union of Jewish students known as AJUS. Which is the student organization that focuses on Leadership for Jewish students in Australia and New Zealand.  And I was invited to take part in a shabaton that was held just outside of Sydney with student leaders from both Australia and New Zealand. The weekend was filled with laughter and joy and happiness, and we were making edible chanukias before the holiday, we were talking about ways to advocate for what students needs and for what they need. We even finished the day with kayaking, and there was a lot of happiness and a lot of desire, because, as I learned recently, and I should have understood before by being in the southern hemisphere. This is the beginning of summer. This is the first few weeks when people finish the school year and they're enjoying it. They're celebrating. And that's why the dates were chosen.  So it's like beautiful and it's sunny, and we were expelled and everything. And as we were about to start celebrating a holiday that's all about our community and resilience, our resilience was tested again, and now as just over a day into it, we're still trying to see what we can do and how to move forward and support the community right now as it's hurting. Manya Brachear Pashman:     You were actually at Bondi Beach shortly before the attack. Can you kind of describe the environment and why you were there in the first place? Moshe Lencer:     Yeah, of course, as mentioned, we were doing the shabbaton, and the programming ended around 3pm and it's summer. It's the first few days of summer. If you Google, what can you do, or what should you do and see in Sydney, the first few things people will see will be the Opera House, which is, I think, the most iconic place in the city. And then the second thing is go. It says, Go to Bondi Beach. It's such a big piece of the community here and where people go. It's also super close to where most of the Jewish community lives. So we were saying, okay, the shabbaton is done. A lot of the people are now local. What can we do in between? Before people hop on trains and flights and everything? Let's go to Bondi Beach. We all met up at the frozen yogurt location that's very iconic there very that chain itself was very connected to Sydney, and the participants just went there as an unofficial thing. I got there a little bit after just exploring. I said, my first time in Australia, like, Okay, what do I do? I go to Bondai beach. I walked around there. I was seeing this. It's the first week of summer school. Just ended. The beach was packed. It was sunny, beautiful, everything. I don't think there was a person in Sydney that wasn't at the beach yesterday, and I left the beach at around 510, ish, heading towards dinner with the student leaders at the Opera House. Because if I'm already there, I need, I should see everything else. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And so why having, having walked that beach, why was there a Hanukkah celebration there? Can you tell our listeners who may not be familiar with who organized it, and why was the first night celebration? Operation scheduled for that, but that Hanukkah by the sea? Moshe Lencer:     Yeah, of course, Hanukkah by the Sea was one of several events that were held yesterday by the Jewish community. Here. It had over 2000 people, but and it wasn't the only one. There were many events that were designed to celebrate, to have joy. Hanukkah is a holiday of lights, the community here, the geography here is that for a lot of us, Hanukkah, as a holiday, happens in the cold, in the winter, and this is the beginning of summer. You know, it's summer we go to the beach. I was joking with them that their Christian friends do Christmas in July, just so they can have snow or cold associated with the holiday. And just to think about it, right? So going to the beach, going to the where that's part of their culture, the culture here. So there were other events not even far from it. It was the best way to celebrate it. And Chabad of Bondi is a community that's growing, and it's community. It's beautiful, and it's using different aspects of of the tapestry that is the Jewish community of Sydney. So it's more of like, why not do it here? Why not have it there? It's, you know, it's the most connected to what's going on. It's, would have been surprising if they weren't doing something here. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Was there in a giant menorah on the sands of the shore? Or how did they have it set up there? Moshe Lencer:     I will be honest that I missed the preparation. But from what I've seen, though, you know, it's Chabad. They bring giant menorahs wherever they go. I even today they brought a giant menorah to light right there, because this is the core of what Chabad is, is to bring the light, to bring the essence of Judaism, where everyone might go. I walked also today by another location that wasn't far, which had another Hanukkah event yesterday with rides and everything. And they still had the hanukkiah there. That also was a huge Hanukkah. It was, there wasn't hiding of what is going on. You know, the people saw the flyer for what was going on. It was very public. There wasn't a feeling that this holiday should be celebrated in closed doors and hidden from the public. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So you had mentioned earlier offline that you went back to Bondai Beach with the students that you were there to observe the Shabbaton with. Can you tell me what the scene is the day after? Moshe Lencer:     I arrived there today with, with the senior leadership of AJAS who, for context, these are college age students that have tremendous amount of responsibility and leadership and ability. They oversee Jewish students across the whole continent and New Zealand, just to explain. And these are people there in their early 20s, and today, it was very important for them to make sure that we stop by and pay their respects. We have flowers and we want to go and stop at the site. And we weren't the only people with this idea. And what, from everything in my understanding, was a combination of very structured and a very spontaneous situation. People showed up with flowers and stones to mark they were there, and candles and stuffed animals and ways to make sure that the location is not going to be seen as something that isn't important and isn't marked what the horrible scenes was there.  We got there, and I would say, there were, let's say about 100-120 sets of flowers. And then we stood there for another hour and a half, and I think it quadrupled, if not more, in that hour and a half. And it was just lines and lines of people. And what was very also noticeable, these were not just Jewish people, not Jewish and just Jewish individuals. I saw people of faith from different religions. I saw people walking with groceries and putting on flowers and heading back. I said, Children, I don't think there's someone in this whole area, and could have been even outside of Sydney that didn't want to stop and pay their respects because of how horrible that's the situation last night was, and how much it hurt the community, the Jewish community, of course, as being a part of the victims, not just the Jewish community that goes to Bondi, but also the community of Sydney. Many dignitaries have visited the sites in the last 24 hours, and. Um, there were several moments of spontaneous singing. There were, it was Hebrew singing, and it was started by different groups in different moments. It was just ways to those standing there to kind of find some silence in it. It was an attempt. And I'm saying an attempt, because I don't think anything can really help but an attempt to try to start processing, and I'm not going to be worried, and I cannot speak to the community itself as because I'm an outsider, I am fortunate enough to be connected to the members here and to those that are really trying to do what they can to continue and to move forward, but it is an outsider seeing something like this actually, there's some beauty and community and very, very dark times, and to know that it's not just the Jewish community helping each other, but It's the whole community here that they're showing up, just shows there might be some, some hope. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Was this out of the blue? I mean, in your conversations with people there on the ground, was this shocking? Or have they sensed a slow motion journey to this point? Moshe Lencer:     Antisemitism in Australia has been on the rise for a while now. Since October 7, a lot of events have happened, if it's been synagogues that were set on fire, and if it was individuals that would threaten children right outside of their kindergarten, if it was swastikas being spray painted, as I mentioned, the shabbaton started Friday. I landed at 9am on Friday, and I needed to be at our meeting place that was a main synagogue in Sydney at 11am meaning that my time I went through customs, got all my stuff, I just Uber directly there with my luggage. When I got to the synagogue, I was greeted by a security guard who looked at me and he was very confused of why a person he doesn't know stands outside of his synagogue with luggage. The first thing he told me is like, you're not allowed to walk in with luggage into a synagogue in Australia, and I understood exactly why he was saying this. They don't know me. They don't know what's in my luggage. Don't what can come out of my luggage. All of this story to say is that there, there is this tension. And I said it to him, and I said it when I walked in it I really was appreciative that would everything the security guard, no matter what, no matter what I was saying that was like, You're gonna open your luggage, I'm gonna go through everything you have to make sure that you're no matter we're gonna tell me, I'm making sure that there's nothing here that can harm this community. So the people are taking their job seriously with that being said, Australia as a whole has been lucky to never have events like this, not just on the antisemitism. They have never had this large of a terrorist attack and its soil.  So it's one of those they're preparing to for what they know, not what they thought would ever be gun laws on like the US are a lot more stricter there. It's very uncommon to even have weapons so easily. I'm not going to say that people saw it specifically coming. They felt like there is a slow simmer of events. Something's going to happen. No one thought this scale of horrible event can happen, because there was never a scale of this horrible event to a point where it's not a culture like the Jewish community in the US that checks its media and the updates every five minutes that three four hours after event yesterday in downtown Sydney, people were not even aware what was going on in other places, because what they didn't have to check the news. The Jewish community, of course, did. We were told to shelter in places. Everything happened. But if you were someone that is not connected Jewish community in Sydney, and you were in downtown Sydney, and which is in a different part by the Opera House, there's a huge chance you had no it was going on because you didn't need to, because you didn't think that you didn't think that you need to think that something's going to happen. And then moving forward to today, the whole feeling shifted. I got into an Uber that took me to the area, and his first reaction was, I really hope nobody's going to try to shoot you without even knowing I'm Jewish or not, he just like all he knows it was that there was a horrible attack last night in that geographical area. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So it's kind of shocking that you landed at 9am and by 11am you were already introduced to the precautions. That they took and the severity with which they with which they took them, and then not even 48 hours later, the worst. What can we do here in the United States or anywhere in the world where people might be listening to this podcast? What can we do to bring comfort, to bring solace, to show support that really will make a difference. Moshe Lencer:     Everything I've noticed, I'll say that out of what I've been noticing. And then AJUS has actually just launched about 45 minutes ago, a new initiative that they're asking the community, and when I say in community, I mean the Jewish community at large around the world, to share how they're spreading light right now and this holiday, send videos and pictures of lighting the menorah. It's already the second night of Hanukkah. Here it's right now, 10:34pm on Monday, while the day is only starting in the US. So they're, you know, they're far ahead at 16 hour difference. They want to see, they want to feel that the community and the Jewish pride and joy is still going through this. They're the community as it's hurting and it's trying to recover from this, is also trying to show that there is still a vibrant Jewish community, because at the core of this event is to have us hide and is to have us stop being who we are, and to have an if we stop celebrating Jewish identity means they won. They mean that they got exactly what they wanted by actively attacking us and killing us. They're also stopping us from continuing to be the community that we want to be. So that's one thing.  The other thing we're that I am seeing again, I don't want to speak for the community itself. I'm just saying from my experiences with it is to make sure that if you have any interaction with decision makers, if it's in Australia, or diplomats that represent Australia around the world, or even in your own country, that can make any type of public comments. As I said, it was simmering for a while, this didn't show up out of nothing. They didn't expect this horrible thing because, like I said, there was no precedent. But it didn't mean they weren't saying something's going to happen. Australia understood something's going on. But I think right now, what we need to do is putting some pressure to make sure that they're taking a lot more seriously here in Australia, they're taking it a lot more seriously around the world that after two years, when we were saying, this is not just about what they are using, the word of Israel is the fault. We're not against the Jews. It is. It is against the Jews. The lighting of a Hanukkah and Sydney, well, there's a cease fire. Has nothing to do with Israel has all to do with Jewish identity and community, and that's what we need right now to make sure that, you know, we're speaking out. We're making sure that elected officials, those that can make difference, are making a difference. Manya Brachear Pashman:     You talked about the past two years that there has been a rise of antisemitism since October Seventh. And just a few days after October 7, you also mentioned the Opera House. The Sydney Opera House was illuminated in blue and white, the colors of the Israeli flag to show solidarity after the terror attack, and yet, there were protesters outside yelling and some yelling antisemitism, and I'm curious if there has been any indication or expression of similar sentiments in the days after this terror attack. Moshe Lencer:     From my conversation so far with the community and from everything I saw, at least today at Bondi, it seems like the larger community is right now hurting for the Sydney, its own geographical syndicate community, for the Jewish community within its community, said I saw people Fate of different faiths there, very visibly from others right now, and I don't want to, want to knock on wood, I haven't heard or seen anything with that being said. Sorry, let me track this. I do know this morning, as people were putting down flowers, there were some videos of people wearing kefirs, they were actively trying to explain the connection between the shooting in their beliefs, and were trying to intimidate and interrupt as people were trying to mourn and the site. But it was very anecdotal. I believe was one or two people at most, and that does not represent a much larger thing. Just in comparison, as you mentioned that on October 9 that the bridge area in Sydney saw a protest that had hundreds of people. So it's a very different thing. With that being said, we're only 24 hours into this. Our community knows that sometimes we get a short grace period and then it flips. So I'm hoping that by the time this airs what I am saying won't change. Manya Brachear Pashman:     You and me both. Well, you reminded me of the 16 hour time difference. It reminded me that on New Year's Eve, I always tune in to watch the fireworks in Australia, because they're always the first to ring in the new year. And it, to me, is kind of a early first sign of hope for great things to come in the new year, and then I don't want to wait. In other words, I always tune into Australia for that sign of hope and of newness. So I hope that this is I hope that a page turns in Australia for the better, not for the worst. So moosh, thank you very much for joining Moshe Lencer:     Thank you for having me.    

Join host Manya Brachear Pashman for a powerful conversation about Red Alert, the Critics Choice Award-nominated Paramount+ docu-series that confronts the October 7 Hamas massacre with unflinching honesty. Producer Lawrence Bender (Pulp Fiction, Good Will Hunting) shares why this project couldn't wait—launched in real time to push back against denial, disinformation, and a world struggling to absorb the scale of the tragedy. Bender reflects on the courage and trauma of the ordinary Israelis whose stories anchor the series, including survivors like Batsheva Olami, whose resilience changed the production team forever. Hear how filming during an active war shaped the storytelling, the emotional toll on everyone involved, and why capturing these true accounts is essential to ensuring October 7 is neither minimized nor forgotten. Key Resources: AJC.org/Donate: Please consider supporting AJC's work with a year-end gift today. Right now, your gift will be matched, dollar-for-dollar, making double the impact. Every gift matters. Every dollar makes a difference in the fight for a strong and secure Jewish future. Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: [Clip from Red Alert] Manya Brachear Pashman:   Academy Award nominated film producer Lawrence Bender has quite a repertoire for both feature films and documentaries: Pulp Fiction, Inglorious Bastards, Good Will Hunting and Inconvenient Truth. In fact, his works have earned 36 Academy Award nominations.  His most recent TV miniseries is a more personal project on the second anniversary of the October 7 Hamas terror attacks on Israel, Paramount Plus began streaming a four episode series called red alert about the attack on festival goers, innocent passers by and families waking up to terrorists inside their Israeli homes that day, a tragedy that many of us, either on this podcast or listening have watched with overwhelming grief for the last two years. Lawrence is with us now to talk about how he grappled with this attack on Israel and the rise of antisemitism that followed.  Lawrence, welcome to People of the Pod. Lawrence Bender:   Thank you, Manya, it's good to be here.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   So that clip that we played at the top of this episode, it's one of the few clips in English. Most of the dialog in this show is in Hebrew with subtitles. But that scene is a woman, Bathsheba and her two daughters. They're walking across a field trying to return home, and her son has been taken. Her husband is gone. This series weaves together her story and three or four other ordinary civilians fighting for their lives on October 7, 2023. You know, as someone personally who's been immersed in this subject matter for two years, to be honest, I had to muster the energy to watch this, and I'm so glad that I did. But why are, I mean, as we're still waiting for the last hostage to be returned, why was it important for this show to air now? Lawrence Bender:   Well, thank you so much for doing this with me, and thank you for playing that clip. I have to tell you first, I love that clip. I love that scene because one of the things about the show and the stories that we portrayed is that even with the horrific things that happened on that day, people still were able to fight back. People were still able to be strong. A mother with her daughter and her infant stood in the face of a terrorist and stood him down in real life, this happened.  Now, not everybody was so fortunate, and her husband Ohad was not fortunate, and her son was taken hostage, as you mentioned, but it does show her personal power in this horrific situation. And I just thought, you know, this woman is a real hero. I've spent a lot of time with her, Batsheva Olami, she's really an extraordinary human in all ways. So thank you for playing that clip.  So in terms of the show, I felt on October 8, it's just amazing how quickly, before Israel did anything, the entire world quickly turned against the very people who were the victims and having spent subsequently, a lot of time with people on the set, because, as you mentioned, this show was about real people, and those real people spent a lot of time on the set with us. And the very people that were traumatized, felt isolated, they felt alone, and they're the very ones that need to be loved, that need to be hugged, they need to be supported. Anyway, I just felt like I needed to do something fast to try to show the world what really happened. AndRed Alert is the result of that. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Do you fear that the world has already moved on? Lawrence Bender:   Oh, that's a good question. It feels like we've passed a tipping point, actually, in terms of Jew hatred and anti-Israel and antisemitism. Even as we are now trying to have a peace process, right, that somehow we are stumbling forward, and if that's going to happen, people need to understand why we're here and why we're here happened on October 7. And if you watch the show, hopefully you're pulled into the show, and you have a, you know, you have an emotional journey, and then you understand, oh, this really happened. And you understand that's the truth. And only when you really understand the truth of October 7 do I really think that you can really get some sort of peace. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So is this different from other historical events? You know, a lot of movies and television shows commemorate historical events, like the Holocaust, for example, but they happen years later. They're made years later. I kind of call it the never forget genre. But is October 7 unique in that it's not a question of whether people will forget or move on. It's a question of whether they believe that this present is actually true. Lawrence Bender:   That's right, there's the deniers. There's people that just don't know. There's people that forgot, maybe you know, there are people who I know that I had to explain. Like, you know, it's interesting. As an example, when you see the show and you see all these Hamas terrorists invading the kibbutz, and Ohad says to her, his wife, Bathsheva, he whispers in her ear, I just saw about 20 terrorists, and someone said to me, who's not unintelligent, I didn't realize there are that many. I didn't realize that. And if you're not really paying attention, maybe you don't really know. And look, they're the haters, haters which are never going to change. But I think there's a large group of people that just don't really understand, and they're the ones that I feel we have a shot at showing this to and having a conversation with. Manya Brachear Pashman:   In fact, are you actually introducing or experimenting with a new genre of truth or facts in the face of fiction. Lawrence Bender:   I guess that's true. I mean, this just happened. And some people ask over this last, you know, when I released, and we were paramount, released the show. You know, I've been asked a question, is it too soon? And my answer is, I feel like it's not soon enough. And I felt like immediately I needed to work on something, and this is the result of that. For me, personally, there are many collaborators of people on this show that incredible Israeli partners, my American partners. I mean, there's a lot of amazing people that came together to work on this, to make this show, but we really felt like time was of the essence, because the world was shifting so quickly, we wanted this to get out there, to show the world what really happened. Manya Brachear Pashman:   One of the reasons I'm pressing you on this, this was not a fiction film. This was based in reality. You said you met Bathsheba, the actors prepared for their roles by meeting with the very real people who they were portraying in this show whose stories they were recreating. I'm curious what some of the takeaways were for you, for your colleagues, from your encounters with these victims, with these survivors, and did anything about the production ever change after they got involved? Lawrence Bender:   It was truly a life changing experience for myself, but really for everyone involved, of course, myself and my partner, Kevin Brown and Jordana Rubin, and we were basically the only non Israelis that were full time producing the show. And everyone else was a citizen of the country. Everyone else, you know, was affected dramatically, everything but from like our key grips brother ran the kibbutz Raim, where we filmed that area that was a kibbutz overrun by terrorists, right? His brother survived. So it was really like every single person at some point, you know, we call it triggered, but it really happened quite often where you have a scene and people just have to stop for a second and take a moment, whether it's an actor finishing a scene or a crew member, you know, partaking in the making of the scene. But lots of things happen. I'll tell you one story which was, you know, quite interesting. We're working at the Nova festival scene, and one of the actors, Moran, her niece, was on vacation in Greece, and her niece told her, if a red headed police woman shows up on the set, she's the one who saved my life. And indeed, her name was Bat, she showed up, and we said, we need you to meet somebody. And we FaceTimed Moran's niece with Bat, and the young lady she's like in her early 20s, said, You're the one who saved my life. You're the one I was hiding by your feet while you were firing. And we asked, Did you remember the people that you saved? And she said, I really only remember the people I didn't save. You really felt the pain that she is still at that point a year and a half later, this is. In April, May, suffering from what she went through. RPG hit nearby her. She went flying through the air. She had had half reconstructive surgery, on and on and on. It was obviously an extremely traumatic day for her to you know, a moment where there's a woman on the set whose daughter was murdered, and someone on my crew, actually, Mya Fisher, has said, you know, there's someone here I want to introduce you to. It's after lunch. And I spent some time with her, and I asked her, you know, like, how do you go? Fine, I can't, you know, I can't imagine losing my son in this way. It's just unimaginable. And I asked her, do you have a rabbi? What do you do to survive?  And it was a very difficult emotional exchange. And sometime later, she had sort of retold that encounter to somebody else on the set who came to me and said, you know that woman you're talking to. She told me what happened, you know this conversation? And she said, You know this Hollywood producer came all the way from California, she doesn't know me, from Adam, and sat down with me for an hour to hear my story, and it clearly meant a lot to her. And again, you realize that the very people who are traumatized directly are not getting the love, are so isolated and people are against them, and it made me feel even more determined to tell these stories for the world to understand.  Every day we had these type of difficult, emotional and to be honest, I was extremely honored every time I met someone. I spent every Saturday night at Hostage Square because we were making the show, I got to spend time backstage with all the families who had loved ones in the tunnels. There was a deep dive into this. Now, I have to tell you, on the other hand, the filming while a war is still going on is quite it's like things you don't have to think about normally, right? So, as an example, we were in a town and we're shooting a shootout. We're filming a shootout between the IDF actors and the Hamas actor. They're actors. I keep saying they're actors, right? Because they are actors. But the mayor and the chief of police in the town were extremely worried, because they look real, right? They look like real people. And unfortunately, the cemetery is littered with people who have been murdered and killed by the Hamas. And all the other men who are there, they have guns, they carry, and if something's happening, they're going to run towards the problem. So he's worried, what if someone walks by, or someone's up in a building. He looks down and they see an actor who looks like Hamas, they are going to shoot him. So we literally had speakers every 10 yards, like all up and down the street, and every like 15-20 minutes, saying, don't worry, in Hebrew, of course, this is a movie, everything's okay. We had a drone up in the air, never coming down, on a tether with a police officer. They're a full big screen watching case someone walks down the street.  We dressed up the Hamas actors as they're walking from the holding area to the area where they're filming, we put them in these kind of white hazmat-like suits so that they couldn't confuse them, and when they got done filming, we put them right back in these hazmat white suits and brought them back to the holding area. We all had to dress up, and we had to wear these very, very light blue shirts the entire crew, so nobody looked like anything but a crew member. It was something, right?  Manya Brachear Pashman:   I did not even think about that. I mean, I knew that you had filmed on location in Israel, and I knew you had filmed during the war. In fact, I was going to explain to listeners who don't know Red Alert is what Israelis call the sirens and the phone alerts when there are rockets being fired upon Israel and they have time to seek shelter. I was going to ask you if you had been there during a red alert and had to seek shelter, but I didn't even think about the possibility of people confusing the filming with actual war activity. I imagine you were there during a red alert, and did have to seek shelter, yes? Lawrence Bender:   so there's different types of alerts in the south. We did shoot in the guys called the Gaza envelope. We shot within less than a mile away from the Gaza border. So a scene that comes soon after the one that you showed. They're resting under a tree, and we are in the Gaza envelope. And this is a scene where they're running from the Hamas. They're running, they're bare feet, and they're out of breath, and they stop under this tree that's hot, and so forth. And you can hear, just a mile away, the war going on in Gaza. Hear the bombs and everything, and we weren't worried about we're going to be attacked, but it was eerie hearing a war go on, and we're filming a scene where they're running from that war, right?  So it was dramatic every week or so still at that point, the Hamas would lob a missile bomb into southern Israel and an alert would go off. You have 15 seconds to. Get into. So we had to bring these portable concrete safe rooms with us so that crew, at any given moment can run quickly into one of these concrete things. We couldn't always do it. So there's always this conversation, and by the way, it costs a lot of money, so everything you're always carrying these things. There's a lot of planning that went on. But I have to tell you, as an American showing up in Israel for the first time after October 7, I wasn't used to these alarms going off, so we were fortunate that while we were filming in the south, no missiles were lobbed at us. However, my first day there, I'm in a meeting on the eighth floor. It was a Friday morning. I got in there on a Thursday evening, 10 o'clock in the morning, the alarm goes up. I mean, just like that, right? And it's loud.  And you have these buzzers. Everyone's phone is buzzing, not like the Amber Alerts we have, like, really buzzing loud. And everyone stops and looks at me, and they apologize to me. They apologize and they go, Oh, we're really sorry, but it's an alert. We have to go into a safe room. Oh, don't worry, it's just from the Houthis. It takes eight minutes to get here. Now it's an intercontinental ballistic missile. These are real big missiles. They can really do bad damage. Don't worry, the Iron Dome usually gets them. It's really okay. So we go, you know, we go into and they pick up their danish and their coffee, and of course, I take out my cell phone and I'm videotaping. And then we go in there, and when it's off, we go back to the meeting. The meeting starts as if it never happened. And then they stop, and they go, Oh, how was that for you? And then I just didn't realize, what with the emotion that was going on because we're not used to having missiles shot at us. It's not normal. And I started to bubble up with emotion, and I had to, like, stop myself, I didn't want to cry in front of all these people that I barely knew. So I had to suppress my feelings. Like, don't worry, it's okay. You're having a normal reaction, right? And that happened quite often while I was there.  Now, you do get used to it. And the last night I was there, I was having dinner outside, tables outside, you know, in restaurants everywhere. So we're having a typical outside dinner, and they're handing the fish, and the alarm goes off, and we go, let's eat. And we don't go into the restaurant where they're called maamads. You don't go into the safe room. So that's kind of the quote, unquote normal life. Now you imagine here in the United States we get a missile from Mexico or Canada or wherever. No one's going to put up with that. That's just insane. It's insane what people in Israel have to go through. Manya Brachear Pashman:   it really is. But it's interesting that you've kind of adopted the nonchalance that your colleagues had at the very beginning of the trip, and wow, certainly no apologies. I want to know if there's a missile headed my way. Thank you. It does sound like October 7 changed you personally. And I'd like to know as a progressive Jew, on what level did it change you as a human being. I mean, how did it change you the most? Lawrence Bender:   I've been an active Jewish person for maybe 20, somewhere, 2025, years. I went to Israel My first time. I was ready. As far as I'm concerned. I was too old already to go for the first time. It was like 2003 I went with the Israeli policy forum, and we met with a lot of people there, and we ended up going to Ramallah, met with Abu Mazen, we went to Cairo and met with the president there, Barak, and met with a lot of people in Israel and so forth. And I've been involved one way or another for quite a while. But of course, October 7 was dramatic. Of course, I was safe in my house in Los Angeles, but I still watched in horror. And of course, October 8, it's just hard to understand what happened. It was the latent antisemitism, Jew hatred, that sits there. I still don't quite understand that.  It feels like antisemitism never went away, but it was underneath, and it just gave a good excuse to come out, and now the world is where it is. So yeah, for me, I became much more active than I was before. It became much more important to me, my Jewishness, my relationship to Israel. I want to protect Israel as much as I have that power to you know, whatever my ability is, like a lot of people, I know it's become a really important part of my existence, and it's like a new chapter in my life. I'm absolutely looking for more Jewish or Israeli projects. You know, I'm looking to do as much as possible in this area. Manya Brachear Pashman:   A number of your colleagues in Hollywood have proposed boycotting Israeli film festivals, institutions, projects, they're going the opposite direction that you are. And I'm curious if you had difficulty finding an American network to air this series, and what do you say when you confront colleagues who do want to boycott and are hostile toward Israel? Lawrence Bender:   You know, there's different groups of people. They're the true haters. I don't think that you can ever even have a conversation with them. There are people who just don't understand, and there's people you can and there are people who you know they're trying to be good people. They're trying to understand, like, What don't you understand about women being brutally raped and murdered? It's a little hard for me to understand that, actually. But there are a lot of good people who just are either confused or got too much of the wrong message.  But the one thing I would say straight up is, let's take an analogy. You know, there's very few people that I know that you see on TV, on any news show, that is very empathetic with the regime in Iran as an example, right? That means a brutal regime. If you're a liberal or if you're a conservative, there's very few people who support that regime here in this country, right? But they don't boycott their filmmakers, right? They actually give their filmmakers Academy Awards. So why is that with Israel? I feel like there's something very misguided here in Hollywood. Now, we got really lucky when it came to distribution. I just have to say, because we were supposed to go out to sell the show like it was fully financed from equity and from Keshet, who's the local Israeli. This is the biggest network in Israel, by the way. It's the biggest drama in Israel in the last decade. It really performed well there. But now we're going to go sell it here in the United States and the rest of the world, and it's early September, which is our deadline to do that, and Israel bombs Qatar, and then this boycott letter is signed. And I have to tell the investors. You know, it's like, this is not a good time. We cannot go sell. We're just gonna fail, and there's no second chances.  And you know, I was getting into dramatic arguments with my investors because they really felt strong. You got to be like that character in your show, the police officer is going to save his wife and you know, nothing's going to stop you. And I said, Yes, I'm with you. I developed that character I know in the Middle East arguments. I was at Skip Brittenham's memorial. Skip is like this beautiful man who was like the Mount Rushmore of lawyers here in LA. He's just a great human and one of those guys that wants to make deals, not just take everything and have the other guy get nothing. He was just like a he's just a real mensch, right? And well, loved anyway. Unfortunately, he passed, but I was at his memorial, and I ran into David Ellison. Now, I know David a little bit, not well, but I know him a little bit, and I also know that, you know, he loves Israel, from what I've read and so forth. And so I went up to him and said, Hey, man, we talked. I said, you got to know what I'm doing. And it probably got three words out of my mouth, and you can see him go, I'd love to see this. This sounds amazing, and sounds like it's exactly the timing we need.  And we sent him the material, and he watched every episode himself, and then he gave it to Cindy Holland, who runs paramount, plus his main person. And you know, they said, we do this. We want this. It would be an honor to be your partner in this is actually quite humbling. And it was an incredible moment for us to have David Ellison, Cindy Holland, say, hey. You know, we want this now. Then they said, We need to drop it. We want to drop all the episodes on October 7? Well, by the time they got those episodes, it was like two weeks to go before October 7, or a couple days before, because we couldn't give it to them in the midnight before October 7, obviously. And they had pretty much final picture edit, but we had temporary sound, temporary music, temporary effects, and so we had to work double triple shifts to get it done. But of course, we did. Manya Brachear Pashman:   This actually reminds me of a conversation I had with playwright, screenwriter, Oren softy for the Forgotten Exodus, which is a podcast series we did about Jews from the Middle East. He spoke about his father's side of the family, which hails from Aleppo, Syria, and he shared a lot of his frustrations with the modern anti Israel movement and sentiments in Hollywood, the protests which he's been trying to combat in theater and on the stage. And he actually said that investors had pulled out of a film project about Israel when tensions flared. So it's interesting to hear your investors took the opposite approach, but he told me in our conversations, he told me that being Jewish is about stepping up. That's how he sees it. It's about stepping up. And I'm curious if that rings true to you, and do you feel like this series and your plans to do more, is that your way of stepping up? Lawrence Bender:   Hmm, that's beautiful, and I'm so glad to hear you recount that story with him. I'd love to talk to him about that I feel like, without really understanding that it's built into me genetically, right? My grandparents, far as you go back, my family is Jewish, right? From Romania, from Hungary, from Minsk Belarus. So it's the way that you're brought up as a Jew. It's just always been a part of our lives, and we're pretty much taught that that's part of being Jewish, right? So, you know, I've always felt like it's important for me.  Now I tell you, you know, it's interesting, and I think about as we're talking so in the 90s, when I was getting started, and I was actually doing pretty well this one year, I had Good Will Hunting and Jackie Brown and a price above Rubens, those three movies, and things were going well, but I felt like something was missing in my life. And then we screened Good Will Hunting and Camp David in 1998 and it was an amazing moment. And that was like one of these light bulb moments for me. You know, I met the President and Mrs. Clinton and Madeleine Albright, Secretary of State, and Secretary of Defense, Sandy Berger and the Chief of Staff and Senate Majority Leader, and on and on, right? They're all there.    And it was Matt Damon, Ban Affleck, Gus Van Zant, Robin Williams, et cetera, et cetera, right? And I felt like these guys are making a difference, and that's what was missing in my life. And so since 1998 I've been always looking for ways that I'm and that's that's that becomes like a more of a fulfilling way of living right for myself. So yes, I would answer that. That's a long way to get to yes. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Wow, Camp David, that's awesome. Lawrence, thank you so much for joining us and for talking about the impetus behind this series. I encourage everyone to take some time, brace yourself emotionally, but do sit down and watch Red Alert. It is really quite worthwhile. Thank you so much. Lawrence Bender: Thank you. Manya Brachear Pashman:   If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with AJC colleague, Dr Alexandra Herzog, the granddaughter of Chaim Herzog, Israel's Irish born sixth president. She shared how an attempt by Dublin officials to strip her grandfather's name from a community park illustrates how criticism of Israel can veer into an effort to erase Jewish memory. As I mentioned in my conversation with Lawrence, it took some degree of wherewithal to watch Red Alert, as we've spent the last two years on this podcast speaking with the families of hostages, former hostages themselves, and survivors of the October 7 massacre. I've wanted nothing more than to make sure their voices are heard. We end this week's episode with the voice of Orna Neutra, the mother of Omer Neutra. Orna recently spoke at the AJC Long Island meeting, shortly after the return of her son's remains more than two years after his death, followed by a word from AJC Long Island Director Eric Post. Orna Neutra: When Omer was taken, our world collapsed. But something else happened too. People stood up. People showed up. And many of you here showed up. This community, the broader Long Island Jewish community, AJC, our friends, colleagues, neighbors, complete strangers, carried us. You wrote, you marched, you advocated, you pressured you called you consoled and refused to let the world look away. To our personal friends and honorees here tonight, Veronica, Laurie, and Michael, your leadership has not been symbolic. It has been practical, steady and deeply felt by our family.  Like you said, Veronica, on the first days when we were barely understanding what was going on, you connected us to Senator Schumer's office, and Michael, you helped us write a letter to the White House on October 8, and that was the first sign from hostage families that the White House received. We know that Secretary Blinken had the letter in his hands on October 8, indicating that Omer was probably a hostage.  And AJC as an organization, beyond your many actions and advocacy, I want to specifically acknowledge your DC team. It was mentioned here tonight, throughout our many, many, many visits to Capitol Hill, AJC professionals were instrumental. They arranged meetings, they walked us through endless hallways, opened doors, prepared us and stood beside us, and they're still doing that for us, and we will see them this week. Always professional, with purpose and humanity, and we will never forget that. Over these two years, we learned something essential: that when Jewish families are in danger, the responsibility belongs to all of us, across movements, across generations, across continents. This work is the work that AJC does every day. This is the work that everyone here in this room understands. Eric Post:  Since the horrors of October 7, AJC has been empowering leaders around the world to take action against antisemitism and stand with Israel. But we cannot succeed alone. Please consider supporting AJC's work with a year-end gift today. Right now, your gift will be matched, dollar-for-dollar, making double the impact.  Every gift matters. Every dollar makes a difference in the fight for a strong and secure Jewish future. Donate at AJC.org/donate – that's www - dot - AJC - dot org  slash donate.

When Dublin officials moved to strip the name of Chaim Herzog—Israel's Irish-born sixth president—from a community park, it wasn't just a local dispute. It was an act of erasure. In this emotional episode, Dr. Alexandra Herzog, AJC's Director of the William Petschek Global Jewish Communities Department, explains why this attempt to rewrite history should alarm not only Jews, but all citizens of goodwill. As anti-Zionist fervor increasingly targets Jewish identity across the West, the push to remove a Jewish name from a park beside Ireland's only Jewish school sends a chilling message: Jewish heritage has now become a political battleground. Alexandra shares personal memories of her grandfather and illustrates why this fight isn't about a plaque in Ireland—it's about halting the slide from criticism of Israel into the deletion of Jewish memory. Tune in to understand why defending this history is essential to protecting Jewish dignity everywhere. Key Resources: AJC Welcomes Dublin City Council's Decision to Shelve Renaming of Herzog Park Letter in the Irish Times: Renaming Herzog Park in Dublin Would Be An Act of Erasure Against Ireland's Jews Listen: Will Ireland Finally Stop Paying Lip Service When it Comes to Combating Antisemitism? AJC Directly Addresses Antisemitism and Vilification of Israel in Ireland with the Prime Minister Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Read the full transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/erasing-jewish-history-why-what-happened-in-ireland-should-alarm-all-jews Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:     Members of the City Council of Dublin, Ireland have withdrawn a proposal to rename a park that since 1995 has honored former Israeli President Chaim Herzog. The park, located near Dublin's only Jewish school, is named after Herzog, Israel's sixth president, who was born in Belfast.  Here to talk about the now withdrawn proposal is Alexandra Herzog, AJC's Director of the William Petschek Global Jewish Communities Department, and Chaim Herzog's granddaughter. Alexandra, welcome to People of the Pod. Alexandra Herzog:     Thank you so much for having me, Manya. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So you have joined us before, but on a different podcast, The Forgotten Exodus, which is our narrative series about Jews from the Middle East and North Africa. You were joining us to talk about your maternal grandfather, Nessim Gaon, the longtime president of the World Sephardi Federation. He came to Israel from Sudan. But this time, we're talking about your paternal grandfather, Chaim Herzog. How did someone born in Ireland later become President of Israel? Alexandra Herzog:     Yes, that's a great question. Manya, so my grandfather, Chaim Herzog, was, as you said, born in Belfast. He grew up in Dublin in a very proudly Jewish home. His father actually was a Rabbi Isaac Halevi Herzog, and he served as the Rabbi of Belfast before becoming the chief rabbi of Ireland. So he moved from Belfast to Dublin in 1919. He was affectionately known as the Sinn Féin rabbi, and he was highly respected and close to many of the leaders of the Irish independence movement. So my grandfather really grew up in a house that was deeply steeped in Jewish learning, in Irish patriotism, and he had a very strong sense of moral responsibility.  And as a young man, he had to leave Ireland to study, and he later enlisted in the British Army during World War Two, he fought the Nazis as an intelligence officer. He was one of the first soldiers actually to enter the concentration camp of Bergen Belsen, and he interrogated senior Nazi officials. Now, after the war, he moved to what would become the State of Israel, and he helped build the very young country, almost from its founding, in different positions.  And you know, then later, he became Israel's ambassador to the UN and a member of the Israeli parliament, the Knesset. And by the time he was elected as Israel's sixth president in 1983 he was widely seen really, as a statesman who combined Irish warmth and some storytelling with a very deep sense of Jewish history and Jewish responsibility.  He never stopped describing himself, actually, as an Irish born man. and he often spoke about how Ireland really shaped his worldview, and his commitment to freedom and to democracy. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And you mentioned that he was the ambassador to the United Nations. He was, in fact, Ambassador when the resolution Zionism is Racism was, was part of the conversation. Alexandra Herzog:     That's right. Yes, one of the two UN resolutions ever to be withdrawn and canceled, very important one. That's right.  Manya Brachear Pashman:     In fact, if I'm not mistaken, he tore it in half. Alexandra Herzog:     He did. He tore it in half saying that this was nothing but a piece of paper, and explained how, you know, we could not equate Zionism to racism in any sort of way. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So were those the reasons why, in 1995, the Dublin City Council decided to name the park after your grandfather? Or were there other reasons? Yeah. Alexandra Herzog:     I mean, I think that, you know, I think it was a gesture, really, of recognition, of pride. I mean, Dublin was basically honoring an Irish man, you know, one of its own, an Irish born Jew who had gone to become, it's true, a global statesman, the President of Israel, but who really never stopped speaking about his Irish roots. And I think that that was really a source of pride for him, but also for Ireland in general, for many, many years.  And as you said, you know, Herzog Park really sits in a very historically Jewish neighborhood. It's near, actually, where my family lived, where my grandfather grew up, and it's right next to the country's only Jewish school. So naming a park for my grandfather was, I think, really a way of acknowledging this deep Irish Jewish history, and the fact that it is part of Irish history. So I think that my family story is very much woven into the country's broader story of independence, of democracy and of moral courage, really. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Yet 30 years later, there has been an attempt to rename that park and strip that name from the park. Why? What happened in 30 years? Alexandra Herzog:     It's a great question. I think that in the past three decades, you know, we've really seen the Israeli Palestinian conflict become a proxy battlefield for broader political debates in Europe, but also really everywhere around the world. In Ireland, the criticism of Israeli policies, of the Israeli government, has increasingly blurred into hostility towards Israel as a whole, and at times even towards Israelis and towards Jews.  What is really striking about this proposal is that it doesn't target a policy or even a government decision within Ireland. It targets a piece of Jewish and Irish history. So instead of creating a new space or a memorial, the proposal really sought to erase an existing Jewish name. And I think that that shift from debate to erasure, because that's really what we're talking about, is what worries me the most. It reflects really a climate in which maybe some feel that expressing solidarity with Palestinians require overriding an important part of Jewish history and Jewish presence. Jewish memory, really.  So one of their proposals is actually to rename it Free Palestine park, or to rename it after, you know, a Palestinian child. Obviously from a personal perspective, it's extremely problematic to remove a Jewish name to replace it by another group. We don't need to do that. We can recognize the realities and the lived experiences of both groups without having to erase one over another. Manya Brachear Pashman:     I should note that last year, Israel recalled its ambassador, and in December, closed its embassy in Dublin, accusing the Irish government of extreme anti-Israel policies, antisemitic rhetoric and double standards. So really, taking the debate to extremes, and that the, in fact, the tiny Jewish community that is still there about–would you say about 3000 people in the Irish Jewish community? Alexandra Herzog:    That's right. Manya Brachear Pashman:    They're facing antisemitism as well. We actually interviewed our colleague, AJC's Director of International Jewish Affairs, Rabbi Andrew Baker, at the time, just about a year ago, because he also serves as the Personal Representative on Combating Antisemitism and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.  So he had just met with the Irish Prime Minister whose administration had recently adopted the international Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's Working Definition of Antisemitism. So I'm curious now with this attempt to rename the park and do something so harsh to erase Jewish history, has that definition been implemented, or has it failed to be implemented? Alexandra Herzog:     Yeah, I think that the adoption of the IHRA working definition of antisemitism by the Irish government was really an important and a very welcome step. On paper, you know, it gives officials and institutions, law enforcement, a shared framework, really, for recognizing antisemitism, including when it appears in the guise of anti-Israel rhetoric. I think that the challenge, really, as always, is implementation. So from what I hear in conversations with the Irish Jewish community, and you know, Jewish community leaders and colleagues who follow these issues very closely, there's still a significant gap between the formal adoption of the IHRA and the day to day practice. Whether it's in, you know, political discourse or in education, or even how incidents are simply discussed or understood. And I think that the current controversy here that we're talking about with Herzog Park is a perfect example of that. If you apply the IHRA seriously, then you see very quickly how targeting a specifically Jewish symbol in a Jewish neighborhood, in order to make a political point about Israel, actually crosses the line into antisemitism. So I think that if we could really work on the implementation much more, that would be extremely positive. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And in fact, the prime minister himself actually condemned the attempt by the Dublin City Council to rename the park, correct, he encouraged the withdrawal of this proposal? Alexandra Herzog:     That's correct. Both the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister actually issued statements saying that this proposal should not have come  to even be considered, and that they should be withdrawn. And I'm very grateful for their leadership in that.  And I think that it's important, though, to underline the fact that it is not, you know, just a global form of antisemitism, but that it is really an expressed form of antisemitism on the ground, really erasing Jewish history and blaming an entire Jewish population for what is happening miles and miles away is antisemitism. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So what are you hearing from the tiny Jewish community there? Are you in touch with people there? Do you still have relatives who live in Ireland? Alexandra Herzog:     I sadly don't have relatives there anymore, but I am in contact with the Jewish community. And I think that, you know, it's a community that really has a lot of pride in their Jewish history and their Irish history and in their Irish roots. I think there is a feeling, what I'm hearing from them, that there is a bit of a mix of fatigue also, and of anxiety. And you know this, we're talking, as we said before, about a very small community, about 3000 Jews. It's a close knit community that has contributed far beyond its size to Irish society.  They love Ireland, and they feel deeply Irish, but in the past years, and especially since October 7, they have felt increasingly targeted, and they often have felt exposed, misunderstood. So I think that incidents like the proposed renaming of the park lands particularly hard because it's not abstract. It's a park that's in their neighborhood, that's next to their children's school, and bearing the name of someone who for them symbolizes their connection to Ireland. So to see this name singled out really sends a chilling message that, you know, Jewish presence, Jewish history are negotiable. Manya Brachear Pashman:     You know, we talked about similar issues when we talked about your maternal grandfather in Sudan and the erasure of Jewish history across the Middle East and North Africa in these countries where Jews fled. Would you say that there are parallels here? Or is that, is that an unfair statement? Is that taking it too far? Alexandra Herzog:     I mean, I think that, in general, the notion of commemoration, the notion of really talking about one's history is, is a problematic one, when those commemorations, or those celebrations of memory, of Jewish memory and Jewish impact, are being erased because of the connection with Israel. And when people use the platform to accuse Israel of genocide, they distort history. They weaponize really Jewish suffering.  I think that there is something to be said there. And, you know, it's the same idea as, you know, removing a Jewish name from a park in order to make that political point about Israel. I think that it is something that we're seeing way too much. It is a very slippery slope, and it's something that we should be 100% avoiding. Because Jewish memory, whether it be, you know, like a commemoration about like, what happened to Jews from our fleeing Arab lands, what happened during the Holocaust, anything that has to do with Jewish memory, it needs to be preserved.  It needs to be honored on its own terms. It cannot be repurposed or overwritten to serve certain political narratives or even certain political accusations that like the ones that we're hearing right now, to me, that is very deeply troubling, and it's something that Jewish communities worldwide, I think, are experiencing more and more unfortunately. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So I wanted to ask you, your grandfather passed away in 1997. This park was named two years earlier. Was he present for that dedication? Alexandra Herzog:     Yeah, unfortunately, he wasn't able to attend the inauguration. He was still alive, that's true when the park was named, and he was deeply touched by the gesture. I think that for him, it really symbolized a bit of a full circle somehow. You know, the Irish boy who became President of Israel, who's being honored in the neighborhood where his story really began. I think that there was something very powerful and beautiful about it. For the 100th anniversary of my grandfather's birth in 2018 the family actually went to the park and got the dedication plaque up. And you know, that was a very meaningful event. Manya Brachear Pashman:    It must be heartbreaking for you to know that they want to tear that plaque down now. Alexandra Herzog:     I know how proud my grandfather was of his Irish roots. I know the work that my great-grandfather did in Ireland for Irish independence. And I think that it's completely uncalled for right now to rewrite history and to pretend that our family's story has no place in this country that meant so much for two generations of my family, and really even as a statement for Israel. My grandfather always, you know, talked about Ireland, and really always had this pride. So it touches very deeply.  I think it really gives the very wrong message to young Jews and children who are growing up in a country where they are such a minority, I think that we have to put things in perspective a little bit. And, you know, I imagine being a kid and seeing like the name of somebody who maybe symbolizes something for you, their name being removed.It sends a message that really should not be out there in any kind of way and is not justified. Manya Brachear Pashman:     You knew your grandfather. Did he share stories about his childhood, and was there anything as you were standing in that park that reflected those stories? Alexandra Herzog:     Yeah, I had the very big privilege to know my grandfather very well, to spend a lot of time with him. I'm his first grandchild, so we spent a lot of time together. We shared a deep passion together for history, for literature, for politics, but also for nature. For me, before any before being a public figure, he really was my grandfather, my Saba. Someone who was warm, who was funny, who was very present as a grandfather, who would take me to the garden and show me all of his fruit trees that he was so very proud. And I had this feeling, I mean, the park, this park is very small. It's a tiny, you know, it's a tiny park, but somehow is so meaningful to him. And I know that he loved living in that neighborhood. It was very hard for him to leave Ireland and, you know, go to what was then Palestine. So it's something that I really felt very strongly when I was there, and that I think that our family thinks about often. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Well, Alexandra, I am so glad that the Dublin City Council tabled this proposal for the time being. And I appreciate you sharing some memories about your grandfather and putting this in perspective for our listeners. Alexandra Herzog:     Thank you very much. It was an honor. Manya Brachear Pashman: You can hear the story of Alexandra Herzog's maternal grandfather Nissim Gaon and the challenges he and his family faced in Sudan in the first season of our award-winning series The Forgotten Exodus. In 12 episodes, we also share the erased or often-forgotten stories of Jewish families who left or were driven from their homes in the Middle East and North Africa. And don't forget to listen to our most recent series about reconciliation in the region: Architects of Peace: The Abraham Accords Story.   

Five years after the signing of the Abraham Accords, the Middle East looks very different—defined by both extraordinary cooperation and unprecedented challenges. In this episode, we unpack how Israel's defensive war on seven fronts affected regional partnerships, why Abraham Accords nations have stood by the Jewish state, and what expanded normalization could look like as countries like Saudi Arabia and others weigh making such monumental decisions.   We also explore the growing importance of humanitarian coordination, people-to-people diplomacy, and the critical role AJC is playing in supporting deeper regional collaboration. From shifting narratives to new economic and security opportunities, we chart what the next five years could mean for peace, stability, and integration across the region. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. This episode is up-to-date as of November 25, 2025. Read the transcript: Building What's Next | Architects of Peace - Episode 6 | AJC Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more from AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: The Forgotten Exodus  People of the Pod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: ANNE DREAZEN: One thing that I have learned from my many years at the Department of Defense is that military instruments of power are not sufficient to really build longlasting peace and stability.  The importance of trade, of economic development, of people-to-people ties, is so essential to what we think of as an enduring or a lasting peace. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years–decades–in the making. Landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords, normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf States, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain.  Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs and build bonds that would last. Introducing: the Architects of Peace. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: It has been five years since Israel, the United Arab Emirates, and Bahrain signed the Abraham Accords on the South Lawn of the White House. In those five years, Russia invaded Ukraine, sparking a massive refugee crisis. The U.S. elected one president then re-elected his predecessor who had ushered in the Abraham Accords in the first place.  And amid news that Saudi Arabia might be next to join the Accords, the Hamas terror group breached the border between Israel and Gaza, murdered more than 1,200 people and kidnapped 251 more. Israel suddenly found itself fighting an existential war against Iran and its terror proxies on multiple fronts – Gaza, Lebanon, the West Bank, Yemen, Syria, Iraq, and Iran itself. At the same time, Israel also fought a worldwide war of public opinion – as Hamas elevated the death toll in Gaza by using Palestinian civilians as human shields and activists waged a war of disinformation on social media that turned international public perception against the Jewish state. Through it all, the Abraham Accords held. ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: There are those who work hard to undermine what we are doing. And this is where many question: 'How come the UAE is still part of the Abraham Accords?'  MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Dr. Ali Rashid Al Nuaimi is a leading parliamentarian and educator in the United Arab Emirates. He has served as the Chancellor of the United Arab Emirates University and the Chairman of the Abu Dhabi Department of Education and Knowledge. He currently serves as the Chairman of the International Steering Board of Hedayah, The International Center of Excellence for Countering Extremism and Violent Extremism. The center is based in Abu Dhabi.  He was one of the first to go on Israeli and Arab media to talk to the general public about the Abraham Accords and was known for correcting news anchors and other interview subjects, that the UAE had not simply agreed to live in peace with the Jewish state. It had agreed to actively engage with the Israeli people. ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: We saw the importance of engaging with both sides. We saw the importance of talking to the Israeli general public. We saw the importance of dialogue with the government in Israel, the Knesset, the NGO, the academician, businessman. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: That engagement started almost immediately with flights back and forth, musical collaborations, culinary exchanges, academic partnerships, business arrangements–much of which came to a halt on October 7, 2023. But that simply meant the nature of the engagement changed. Since the start of the Israel-Hamas War, the UAE has provided extensive humanitarian aid to Gaza, delivering more than 100,000 tons of food, medical supplies, tents, and clothing, by land, air and sea—about 46% of the total assistance that entered Gaza. It established six desalination plants with a combined capacity of two million gallons per day.  And, in addition to operating field and floating hospitals that treated 73,000 patients, the UAE also provided five ambulances, facilitated a polio vaccination campaign, and evacuated 2,785 patients for treatment in the UAE. From Dr. Al-Nuami's point of view, the Abraham Accords made all of that humanitarian aid possible. ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: This is why we were able to have these hospitals in Gaza, we were able to do these water solutions for the Palestinians, and we did so many things because there is a trust between us and the Israelis. That they allowed us to go and save the Palestinian people in Gaza.  So there were so many challenges, but because we have the right leadership, who have the courage to make the right decision, who believe in the Abraham Accords principles, the vision, and who's working hard to transform the region. Where every everyone will enjoy security, stability, and prosperity without, you know, excluding anyone. Why the UAE didn't pull out of the Abraham Accords? My answer is this. It's not with the government, our engagement. The government will be there for two, three, four years, and they will change.  Our Abraham Accords is with Israel as a nation, with the people, who will stay. Who are, we believe their root is here, and there is a history and there is a future that we have to share together. And this is where we have to work on what I call people to people diplomacy. This is sustainable peace. This is where you really build the bridges of trust, respect, partnership, and a shared responsibility about the whole region. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: On October 9, two years and two days after the start of the war between Israel and Hamas, the White House announced a ceasefire would take effect, the first step in a 20-point peace plan proposed for the region. Four days later, President Donald Trump joined the presidents of Egypt and Turkey, and the Emir of Qatar to announce a multilateral agreement to work toward a comprehensive and durable peace in Gaza. Since then, all but the remains of three hostages have been returned home, including Lt. Hadar Goldin, whose remains had been held since 2014, ending the longest hostage ordeal in Israel's history. Finally, the prospect of peace and progress seems to be re-emerging. But what is next for the Abraham Accords? Will they continue to hold and once again offer the possibilities that were promised on the White House Lawn in September 2020? Will they expand? And which countries will be next to sign on to the historic pact, setting aside decades of rejection to finally formalize full diplomatic relations with the Jewish state? The opportunities seem endless, just as they did in September 2020 when the Abraham Accords expanded the scope of what was suddenly possible in government, trade, and so much more.  ANNE DREAZEN: The Abraham Accords really opened up lots of opportunities for us in the Department of Defense to really expand cooperation between Israel and its partners in the security sphere.  MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN:  Anne Dreazen spent the last 18 years as a civil servant in the U.S. Department of Defense. For most of that time, she worked on Middle East national security and defense policy, focusing on Iran, Iraq and Lebanon. And most recently serving as the principal director for Middle East policy, the senior civil service job overseeing the entire Middle East office. She was working at the Pentagon when the Abraham Accords were signed under the first Trump administration and immediately saw a shift in the region. ANNE DREAZEN: So, one thing that we saw at the very end of the first Trump administration, and it was made possible in part because of the success of the Abraham Accords, was the decision to move Israel from U.S. European Command into U.S. Central Command. And for many decades, it had been thought that that wouldn't be feasible because you wouldn't have any Middle East countries in CENTCOM that would really be willing to engage with Israel, even in very discreet minimal channels.  But after the Abraham Accords, I think that led us policymakers and military leaders to sort of rethink that proposition, and it became very clear that, it would be better to increase cooperation between Israel and the other Gulf partners, because in many cases, they have similar security interests, specifically concerns about Iran and Iranian proxies and Iranian malign activity throughout the region. And so I think the Abraham Accords was one item that sort of laid the groundwork and really enabled and encouraged us to think creatively about ways through which we could, in the security and defense sphere, improve cooperation between Israel and other partners in the region. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: But sustaining peace in the region is more than a matter of maintaining security. Making sure young people can fulfill their dreams, make a contribution, build relationships and friendships across borders, and transcend religion and ideologies – even those in the security sphere know those are the necessary ingredients for peace and prosperity across the region.  Despite the efforts of Hamas and other Iran-backed terror proxies to derail the Abraham Accords, the U.S., Arab, and Israeli leaders had continued to pursue plans for an Israeli-Saudi peace agreement and to explore a new security architecture to fight common threats. This spirit of optimism and determination led AJC to launch the Center for a New Middle East in June 2024. In October, Anne joined AJC to lead that initiative. ANNE DREAZEN: One thing that I have learned from my many years at the Department of Defense is that military instruments of power are not sufficient to really build long lasting peace and stability. The importance of trade, of economic development, of people-to-people ties is so essential to what we think of as an enduring or a lasting peace.  And so at AJC, we're actually focused on those aspects of trying to advance normalization. Really trying to put more meat on the bones, in the case of where we already have agreements in place. So for example, with Jordan, Egypt, Bahrain, the UAE and Morocco, trying to really build out what more can be done in terms of building economic ties, building people-to-people ties, and advancing those agreements. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Of course, that work had already begun prior to Anne's arrival. Just two years after the Abraham Accords, Retired Ambassador to Oman Marc Sievers became director of AJC Abu Dhabi: The Sidney Lerner Center for Arab-Jewish Understanding, the first and only Jewish agency office in an Arab and Islamic country.  After more than 30 years as a U.S. diplomat serving across the Middle East and North Africa, Marc has witnessed a number of false starts between Arab nations and Israel. While the Abraham Accords introduced an unprecedented approach, they didn't suddenly stabilize the region.  Marc's four years in Abu Dhabi have been fraught. In January 2022, Houthis in north Yemen launched a drone and missile attack on Abu Dhabi, killing three civilians and injuring six others. In 2023, the October 7 Hamas terror attack on Israel, Israel's retaliation, and Israel's war on seven fronts dimmed Emiratis' public perception of Jews. As recently as this past August, the U.S. Mission to the UAE issued a dire warning to Israeli diplomats and Jewish institutions in Abu Dhabi – a threat that was taken seriously given the kidnapping and murder of a Chabad rabbi in 2024.  But just as the UAE stood by its commitment to Israel, Marc and AJC stood by their commitment to the UAE and Arab neighbors, working to advance Arab-Jewish and Muslim-Jewish dialogue; combat regional antisemitism and extremism; and invigorate Jewish life across the region. From Marc's vantage point, the Abraham Accords revolutionized the concept of normalization, inspiring a level of loyalty he's never before seen.  It's worth noting the precursor to the Abraham Accords: the Peace to Prosperity Summit. For decades, diplomats had frowned on the idea of an economic peace preceding a two-state solution.  MARC SIEVERS: That idea's been out there for a long time. …It was just never embraced by those who thought, you know, first you have a two-state solution. You have a Palestinian state, and then other things will follow. This approach is kind of the opposite. You create an environment in which people feel they have an incentive, they have something to gain from cooperation, and that then can lead to a different political environment. I happen to think that's quite an interesting approach, because the other approach was tried for years and years, and it didn't succeed. Rather than a confrontational approach, this is a constructive approach that everyone benefits from. The Prosperity to Peace Conference was a very important step in that direction. It was harshly criticized by a lot of people, but I think it actually was a very kind of visionary approach to changing how things are done. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: The conference Marc is referring to took place in June 2019 –  a two-day workshop in Bahrain's capital city of Manama, where the Trump administration began rolling out the economic portion of its peace plan, titled "Peace to Prosperity."  The workshop's host Bahrain, as well as Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the Emirates participated, to varying degrees.  The plan called for large scale investment, mostly by other countries in the Gulf and Europe, to advance the Palestinian economy, to integrate the Palestinian and Israelis' economies and establish a small but functional Palestinian state.  Angered by Trump's recognition of Jerusalem, Palestinian leadership rejected the plan before ever seeing its details. But as former U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman pointed out in an earlier episode of this series, that was expected. The plan enabled Israel to demonstrate that it was open to cooperation. It enabled the Trump administration to illustrate the opportunities missed if countries in the region continued to let Palestinian leadership call the shots. It was economic diplomacy at its finest. And it worked.  MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN:  Benjamin Rogers, AJC's Director for Middle East and North Africa Initiatives, who also serves as Deputy Director of the Center for a New Middle East, said the Center has focused heavily on expanding private sector engagement. Israelis and Arab entrepreneurs have quietly traveled to the U.S. as part of the Center's budding business collectives.  BENJAMIN ROGERS: So people who are focused on med tech, people who are focused on agri tech, people who are focused on tourism. And what we do is we say, 'Hey, we want to talk about the Middle East. No, we do not want to talk about violence. No, we don't want to talk about death and destruction. Not because these issues are not important, but because we're here today to talk about innovation, and we're here to talk about the next generation, and what can we do?' And when you say, like, food security for example, how can Israelis and Arabs work together in a way that helps provide more food for the entire world? That's powerful. How can the Israelis and Arabs working together with the United States help combat cancer, help find solutions to new diseases?  If you really want to get at the essence of the Abraham Accords – the ability to do better and work together, to your average person on the street, that's meaningful. And so one of the initiatives is, hey, let's bring together these innovators, these business leaders, private sector, and let's showcase to Arabs, Israelis, non-Jewish community, what the Middle East can be about. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: People-to-people connections. That's what AJC has done for decades, traveling to the region since 1950 to build bridges and relationships. But providing a platform to help facilitate business ventures? That's a new strategy, which is why AJC partnered with Blue Laurel Advisors. The firm has offices in Tel Aviv, Dubai, and Washington, D.C.. It specializes in helping companies navigate the geopolitics of doing business in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, and Israel.  At AJC Global Forum in April, founder and Managing Director Tally Zingher told an audience that the Abraham Accords, which effectively lifted the UAE's ban on business with Israel, brought already existing deals above the radar. TALLY ZINGHER: We've been wowed by what the Center for a New Middle East has been able to do and put forth in the very short time that it's been incubated and Blue Laurel Advisors are really delighted to be part of this project and we're really aligned with its mission and its vision. It's quite simple in the region because the region is really driven by national agendas. I think it's no surprise that the appendix to the Abraham Accords was a direct parallel to the Abu Dhabi national vision. It's the key areas of growth in UAE and Saudi Arabia that are now really well aligned with Israeli strength.  We're talking about the diversification efforts of the UAE and of Saudi Arabia. At Blue Laurel, we're quite focused on Saudi Arabia because of the real growth story underway there created by the diversification efforts. But they're focused on water, energy, renewable energy, healthy cyber security, tourism. Ten years ago when you were doing this work, 15 years ago there wasn't as much complementarity between Israel and the start-up innovation ecosystem and what was going on. The region is really ready and ripe to have Israeli innovation be a part of its growth trajectory. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Benjy said there's another advantage to building bridges in the business world – continuity. BENJAMIN ROGERS:Out of the three sectors that we're focused on – diplomatic, business, and civil society – business relations are the most resistant to political conflict. There's this element of self interest in it, which I'm not saying is a bad thing, but when you tie the relationship to your own worth and your own value, you're much more likely to go through kind of the ebbs and flows of the political.  Whereas, if you're a civil society, you're really at the mercy of populations. And if the timing is not right, it's not impossible to work together, but it's so much more difficult. Business is even more resistant than political engagement, because if political engagement is bad, the business relationship can still be good, because there's an element of self interest, and that element of we have to work together for the betterment of each other. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: The economic diplomacy complements AJC's partnership with civil society groups, other non-profits that work to bring people together to experience and embody each other's realities in the Middle East. The Center also has continued AJC's trademark traditional diplomacy to expand the circle of peace. Though Marc prefers to call it the circle of productivity.  MARC SIEVERS: I think it achieved new relations for Israel that were perhaps different from what had happened with Egypt and Jordan, where we have long standing peace agreements, but very little contact between people, and very little engagement other than through very specific official channels. The Abraham Accords were different because there was a people-to-people element. The UAE in particular was flooded with Israeli tourists almost immediately after the Accords were signed, Bahrain less so, but there have been some. And not as many going the other way, but still, the human contacts were very much there.  I think it was also building on this idea that economic engagement, joint partnerships, investment, build a kind of circle of productive relations that gradually hopefully expand and include broader parts of the region or the world that have been either in conflict with Israel or have refused to recognize Israel as a sovereign Jewish state. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: It being all of those things explains why the potential for expansion is all over the map. So where will the Abraham Accords likely go next? The Trump administration recently announced the addition of Kazakhstan. But as the Central Asian country already had diplomatic relations with Israel, the move was more of an endorsement of the Accords rather than an expansion. In November 2025, all eyes were on the White House when Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman paid a visit. In addition to the customary Oval Office meeting, President Trump also hosted the Saudi royal at a black-tie dinner. ANNE DREAZEN: Right now, everyone is really talking about and thinking, of course, about Saudi Arabia, and certainly I think there's a lot of promise now with the ceasefire having been achieved. That sort of lays a better groundwork to be able to think about whether we can, whether the United States can play an important role in bringing Saudi Arabia and Israel to the table to move forward on normalization. Certainly from the Saudis have have made they've cautioned that one of their prerequisites is a viable path toward Palestinian statehood. And we've known that, that's in President Trump's 20-point plan. So I think it remains to be seen whether or not Israel and Saudi Arabia can come to a mutually agreed upon way of addressing that key concern for Saudi Arabia. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: But there are also countries who only a year ago never would have considered a relationship with Israel. With Hezbollah diminished and a moderate and forward-leaning Lebanese government in place, quiet conversations are taking place that could lead to a significant diplomatic achievement, even if not as ambitious as the Abraham Accords. The same in Syria, where Ahmed al-Sharaa is sending positive signals that he would at least be willing to consider security arrangements. ANNE DREAZEN: Even if you don't have a Syrian Embassy opening up in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv,  even if you don't have an Israeli embassy opening up in Damascus, there could be other arrangements made, short of a full diplomatic peace accord that would lay the groundwork for some understandings on security, on borders. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Marc said it remains to be seen whether Oman, his final diplomatic post, will join the Accords. Two years before the signing of the Accords, while serving as ambassador, there was a glimmer of hope. Well, more than a glimmer really. MARC SIEVERS: In Oman, the late Sultan Qaboos, a good, almost two years before the Abraham Accords, invited Prime Minister Netanyahu to visit him in his royal palace in Muscat. Netanyahu came with his wife, Sarah, but also with a lot of the top senior leadership. Certainly his military secretary, the head of the Mossad, a few other people. As soon as Netanyahu landed in Israel, the Omanis put it all over the media, and there were some wonderful videos of the Sultan giving Netanyahu a tour of the palace and a choir of children who came and sang, and some other things that the Sultan liked to do when he had important guests.  And it was quite an interesting moment, and that was two years before. And that was not initiated by the United States. Unlike the Abraham Accords process, that was an Omani initiative, but again, other than the meeting itself, nothing really came of it. The Omanis took a lot of pride in what they had done, and then they backed away. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Instead, Marc points to the country with the largest Muslim population in the world: Indonesia – especially following recent remarks to the United Nations General Assembly by Indonesia's President Prabowo Subianto. PRABOWO SUBIANTO: We must have an independent Palestine, but we must also recognize, we must also respect, and we must also guarantee the safety and security of Israel. Only then can we have real peace. Real peace and no longer hate and no longer suspicion. The only solution is the two-state solution. The descendants of Abraham must live in reconciliation, peace, and harmony. Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, all religions. We must live as one human family. Indonesia is committed to being part of making this vision a reality. MARC SIEVERS: We've heard that, you know, Indonesia needs some time to consider this, which makes a lot of sense. It's not something to be done lightly, and yet that would be a huge achievement. Obviously, Indonesia has never been a party to the conflict directly, but they also have never had relations with Israel, and they are the most populous Muslim country. Should that happen, it's a different kind of development than Saudi Arabia, but in some ways, it kind of internationalizes or broadens beyond the Middle East, the circle of peace. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: But in addition to adding signatories, Anne said AJC's Center for a New Middle East will work to strengthen the current relationships with countries that stayed committed during Israel's war against Hamas, despite public apprehensions. Anne recently traveled to Bahrain and the UAE with AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson, who has long led AJC's Middle East outreach. There, Anne discovered a significant slowdown in the momentum she witnessed when the Accords debuted. ANNE DREAZEN: I saw a real hesitancy during my travels in the region for politicians to publicly acknowledge and to publicly celebrate the Abraham Accords. They were much more likely to talk about peaceful coexistence and tolerance in what they characterize as a non-political way, meaning not tied to any sort of diplomatic agreements. So I saw that as a big impediment.  I do think that among the leadership of a lot of these countries, though, there is a sense that they have to be more pragmatic than ever before in trying to establish, in time to sustain the ceasefire, and establish a more enduring stability in the region. So there's a bit of a disconnect, I think, between where a lot of the publics lie on this issue.  But a lot of the political leaders recognize the importance of maintaining ties with Israel, and want to lay the groundwork for greater stability. We are very interested now in doing what we can as CNME, as the Center for New Middle East, to help rebuild those connections and help reinvigorate those relationships. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: This is especially the case in Bahrain, which has not seen the same economic dividends as the UAE. ANNE DREAZEN: Bahrain is a much smaller country than the UAE, and their key industries – they have less of a developed startup tech ecosystem than the UAE. And frankly, many of Bahrain's sectors don't overlap as neatly with some of Israel's emerging tech sectors, as is the case with the UAE. So, for example, Bahrain is very heavy on steel and aluminum manufacturing, on logistics. Manufacturing is a big part of the sector.  Israeli tech doesn't really, in general, provide that many jobs in that type of sector. Tourism is another area where Bahrain is trying to develop as a top priority. This obviously was really challenged during the Abraham Accords, especially when direct flights stopped over Gulf air. So tourism was not a natural one, especially after October 7.  Bahrain has really prioritized training their youth workforce to be able to take on jobs in IT and financial services, and this is one area we want to look into more and see what can be done. Bahrain is really prioritizing trying to build relationships in areas that can provide jobs to some of their youth. It is not as wealthy a country as the UAE, but it has a very educated young workforce. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Again, fulfilling dreams, giving youth an opportunity to contribute. That's the necessary narrative to make the Abraham Accords a success.  ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: It's very important to focus on the youth, and how to create a narrative that will gain the heart and the mind of all youth in the region, the Israeli, the Palestinian, the Arabs, the Muslims. And this is where it is very important to counter hate that comes from both sides. Unfortunately, we still see some hate narratives that come from those far-right extremists who serve the extremists on the Arab side, taking advantage of what they are saying, what they are doing. From the beginning, I convey this message to many Israelis: please don't put the Palestinian people in one basket with Hamas, because if you do so, you will be saving Hamas. Hamas will take advantage of that.  This is where it's very important to show the Palestinian people that we care about them. You know, we see them as human beings. We want a better future for them. We want to end their suffering. We want them to fulfill their dream within the region, that where everybody will feel safe, will feel respected, and that we all will live as neighbors, caring about each other's security and peace.  We have to engage, have a dialogue, show others that we care about them, you see, and try to empower all those who believe in peace who believe that Israeli and Palestinian have to live together in peace and harmony. And it will take time, yes, but we don't have other options. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: But Dr. Al Nuaimi emphasizes that it can't be just a dialogue. It must be a conversation that includes the American voice. The UAE has been clear with the Israeli public on two occasions that attempts by Israel to unilaterally annex the West Bank would be a red line for the relationship between their two countries. But even as the five-year anniversary of the Abraham Accords approached, a milestone that should've been a reminder of the countries' mutual commitments, it took U.S. intervention for Israel to heed that warning. Anne Dreazen agrees that the U.S. plays an important role. She said Israel must continue to defend itself against threats. But in order to create a safe space for Israel in the long term, the U.S., the American Jewish community in particular, can help bridge connections and overcome cultural differences. That will keep the Accords moving in the right direction. ALI RASHID AL NUAIMI: I believe many Arab and Muslim leaders are eager to join it, but you know, they have to do their internal calculation within their people. We have to help them, not only us, but the Israelis. They are looking for a way, a path, to have them as neighbors, and to have a solution that the Palestinian will fulfill their dreams, but the Israeli also will be secure. I think having such a narrative that will take us to the next level by bringing other Arab countries and Muslim country to join the Abraham Accords. MANYA BRACHEAR PASHMAN: Thank you for listening. Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland Inspired Middle East: ID: 241884108; Composer: iCENTURY Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher

From New York to California, the 2025 elections carry important implications for the Jewish community. AJC New York Director Josh Kramer addresses concerns over New York City mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani, who has questioned Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state and accused it of genocide. Kramer highlights fears over rising antisemitism in New York and outlines AJC's plan to engage the Mayor-elect on combating hate crimes while remaining vigilant against policies that could target Israel. Looking beyond New York, AJC's Director of National Political Outreach, Rebecca Klein, provides an overview of broader election results, including the victories of Democratic governors in New Jersey and Virginia, as well as the political impact of California's Proposition 50 on redistricting. She explains what these outcomes could mean for Jewish communities and national advocacy efforts. Key Resources: A Letter to Mayor-Elect Zohran Mamdani AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:  The first election season since last year's presidential elections is behind us, giving New York City a new mayor, New Jersey and Virginia new governors and California a green light to redraw its map of congressional districts.  We asked Rebecca Klein, AJC's Director of National Political Outreach, to explain what the 2025 election results mean for the American Jewish community.  But first we wanted to hear from Josh Kramer, regional director of AJC New York, about the election of Zohran Mamdani as the 111th mayor of New York City, the largest Jewish community outside the state of Israel.  Josh, if you could please tell us why that matters, why it matters that the largest Jewish community outside Israel is in New York City, and why the prospect of Mr. Mamdani at the helm of City Hall is a concern.  Josh Kramer:  So as you noted, New York has the largest Jewish population in the country and outside of Israel as well. Jews in New York City are scratching their heads today. They're asking themselves, how could it have come to be that a candidate has been elected to the highest office in the land who espouses views that are contrary to so much of the bulk of the mainstream Jewish population in New York City. Views that isolate and demonize and hold Israel to a double standard. This is a challenging day for many in the Jewish community. Manya Brachear Pashman:  If you could rewind, for listeners who have not been following the mayoral election in New York City, because it's sometimes hard for us here in the New York metropolitan area to remember we are not the center of the world. People are more concerned with issues in their own backyard. But if you could please just kind of fill those listeners in on why Mr. Mamdani was a concern and how he expressed those views that you just spoke of being contradictory to the mainstream Jewish community. Josh Kramer: Absolutely, but I will take issue with New York not being the center of the Jewish world, of course, as the director for the AJC New York Regional Office. So I'll say that we know a lot about mayor-elect Mamdani's views on Israel from his long track record, from his statements that he's made along the campaign trail, from bills that he had proposed as a member of the state legislature.  And mayor-elect Mamdani has espoused strong views in support of the BDS movement to isolate and dismantle Israel. He's called into question the Jewish nature of the world's only Jewish state, and he has had a very difficult time consistently calling out and labeling Hamas as a terrorist organization, condemning their actions of holding hostages and otherwise. So it has been a concern that these issues have been at issue during this election.  But of course, we know that this election wasn't about the issues that AJC cares most about. Most people who went to the polls were voting about affordability issues or about bread and butter issues or filling potholes. Some were voting in alignment with their views on Israel. Many in the Jewish community, many who supported the mayor elect were misaligned with the candidates views on Israel. But I think most people were going to the polls based on those affordability issues.  Manya Brachear Pashman: You answered my next question, which was, why did he win? And it sounds like you do not believe that it was necessarily a referendum on Israel.  Josh Kramer:  I think that there's been a lot of writing and a lot of discussion along the campaign trail about these issues. He has been, and other candidates have been asked about their support for the Jewish community and about what they would do to combat the rising tide of antisemitism, which has been a part of the campaign the entire time.  But his non-support of the State of Israel has been a major issue in the campaign. It's just not the issue that I think that people were going to the polls and making their decisions based on. I think that there certainly were people who are motivated either by or repulsed by the now mayor-elect's views on Israel, but I don't think that it was their top issue.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So you actually penned a letter to the mayor elect after his victory was announced. What did you say in that letter? What did you tell him?  Josh Kramer:   So AJC will work with this new mayor where we can, and that's one of the two core messages, I think, of the letter. We will work with this mayor on his pledge to quadruple, or octuple, the funding to combat hate crimes in New York City. We want to make sure that that funding is spent wisely and appropriately in the city government.  We will work with him on a number of issues where we can align. Modeling, Muslim-Jewish dialog, if that is an area where we can work with the mayor elect. But the second message, and perhaps the more important message, is we will be there to speak out where we need to and understanding that this mayor elect has espoused BDS views for years now, since his days in college, and perhaps before. That we will speak out where we need to, should BDS principles be attempted by the city government as a result of those views.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  You mentioned the funds that he has pledged for combating hate crimes, and I imagine that will require some input from community organizations, especially Jewish organizations, since the Jewish population is often targeted by hate crimes, do you worry that weighing in as much as you did during campaign season will harm your chances of being able to work with and and negotiate and yeah, work in harmony with this mayor.  Josh Kramer:  AJC did feel the need to be on record for this election. And in fact, even prior to the election, we felt we needed to be on record given some of the rhetoric we've seen from this candidate. At the same time, we have engaged with representatives of the mayor's team of the now mayor elects team, and we hope to continue that dialog, to hope to continue to work together where we can. I hope that we haven't harmed our chances to provide input to where hate crimes funding should be spent or could be spent. You're right. Hate Crimes against Jews in New York City, they differ from national statistics in that in New York City, we are the victims of the majority of hate crimes, not just the victims of the religiously motivated or just religious, religiously based hate crimes.  And that means, on average, Jews in New York City are subject to hate crimes, on average, about once per day throughout the year, at least that was the case in 2024 and so we hope very much to be able to monitor and affect how this funding will be spent and make sure that it's spent appropriately in combating the majority of hate crimes, which comprise the Jewish hate crimes.  In fact, there was a hate crime that took place earlier today, one of our on average, one hate crimes per day that we experience against the Jewish community in New York City, and it was a swastika spray painted on a yeshiva in Brooklyn. And just earlier today, mayor elect Mamdani tweeted out, this is a disgusting and heartbreaking act of antiSemitism. It has no place in our beautiful city, and as mayor, he will stand steadfast with our Jewish neighbors to root out the scourge of antiSemitism from our city. So it's an area of interest for us to continue to engage and to see that kind of rhetoric from our leaders is very helpful. So that's, that's what we will continue to look for and also be vigilant at the same time.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  In fact, do you see that as being an entree into conversations and dialog that perhaps just did not, did not happen during the campaign season, for whatever reason, sometimes campaigns can get a little heated and the rhetoric can get a little fiery to fire up the base. Do you have hope? Are you optimistic that perhaps a more rational dialog will emerge during his tenure, and that perhaps this hate crime conversation will be part of it?  Josh Kramer: I do think that that can happen. It can be that strong relationships can be built out of open and very much public dialog, like the letter that was sent out, and it's happened before in New York, we've started very strong relationships with elected leaders in New York City by first starting with very public disagreements. Now that's not our typical way of advocating. Of course, our typical way is diplomatically and behind closed doors, holding very open and frank conversations, but in circumstances like these, perhaps this is the best way to start a conversation.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  Well, Josh, thank you so much for sharing your views on the mayoral election, and now we'll turn to Rebecca Klein to talk about some of the other election results from this week.  Rebecca, welcome to People of the Pod.  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: Thank you for having me. Manya Brachear Pashman: So now that was one major municipal election this week. We also had smaller municipal elections across the country. There was an election in a suburb of Boston where voters voted to divest from Israel. In this Boston suburb, were there other examples of that in elections across the country, and why did this happen?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein: So, you know, Boston has been sort of a challenge for us for some time now, and we as an organization have been addressing this. And I think this is a movement, the BDS movement, is one that we've been sort of countering for years now, and really had made a lot of progress, and it's coming back up again now you see sort of in the wake of 10/7 and in some of the concerns about the Israeli government.  But I see this too as sort of these more symbolic gestures, right? And I think there is a movement out there. The Jewish community is paying attention. We are doing everything we can to counter these measures. I do think they are few and far between, and I think largely again, really, to get their messaging out there. These are sort of messaging points, but please know that we are doing everything we can to sort of quiet that noise, that these are not city issues, and we need to be sort of supportive of the Jewish community, especially now in the wake of rising antisemitism everywhere.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So we'll go up from municipal elections and look at some statewide elections, some gubernatorial votes. We had Mikie Sherril win in the state of New Jersey against Republican candidate Jack Ciattarelli, and then we also had Abigail Spanberger in Virginia become governor. So two women as the head of states. What does this mean for the Jewish communities in those states and also across the country?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  So it's some good news, because I think both these candidates, these governors-elect have been really pro-Israel, pro-support of the Jewish community. Have loudly spoken out and shared their support. Have condemned antisemitism, and have really made it a part of their campaign, a part of their statements.  I'll also just note that I think the truth is, is that whoever had won both of these elections, we were going to have a friend in the Jewish community. And this is a really important thing to note, because it sometimes can feel like there's a partisan divide between support for the Jewish community right now on Israel and antisemitism.  And I'll say, when I see these races, where I look at it and I say, You know what, whoever wins, regardless of what else is going on in the background, I know that we can have lines in, we can have communication, and I feel we can have trusted partners. I'll also say that the interesting thing about, you know, we go right from the New York mayor's race to these two gubernatorial races, and you see a real shift from, you know, a very far side of the party to really moderate, centrist Democrats, both winning their primaries and now winning these elections, which I think says a lot.  It's something I'm going to be looking for absolutely going into these midterms. But I do think it's very loud, and I think it's a counterbalance. For people who are concerned about the extremes of the parties, and I am too as well. Of course, I'm concerned, especially as AJC, as a nonpartisan organization that strives to be bipartisan and bring people together, that we have these now very moderate, reasonable voices leading these two very important states. Manya Brachear Pashman:  And in fact, in New Jersey, AJC hosted a candidates forum, and all of the candidates had an opportunity to share their views about combating antisemitism. Correct?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Absolutely, they did, and it really is a testament not to AJC and our influence, but also to the way that these candidates felt that they did need to address our issues, that they wanted to come to our forum in order to really go on the record. They felt that it was important to the population of the state of New Jersey that they had to be on the record for our issues. And absolutely, I think that's an important thing. And I'm glad to see that more and more candidates are taking these positions. They're not shying away from these positions, and they're creating important relationships within the Jewish community.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  And just speaking of these two candidates, Governor-elect Spanberger And Governor-elect Sherril, were they aware and alarmed by a rise of antisemitism in their states?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Absolutely, and particularly some of the rhetoric so in the primary some of this antisemitism or anti-Israel rhetoric came up. And Abigail Spanberger really spoke to it. I think she spoke to it really nicely. She talked about, you know, it's okay to have differences of opinions, but ultimately, we can never cross the line into antisemitism. Mikie Sherril too really has been supportive of the IHRA working definition of antisemitism. Both really have addressed it. They understand that in a post 10/7 world, we really can't take these things for granted. And I know that both of these leaders, I think, will be good friends of the Jewish community and will absolutely be on the forefront of combating antisemitism in their states.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So I'm going to move over to the west coast and talk about the election in California. I know we have some listeners in California who care about this, about Prop 50, but should people in other states across the nation be looking at California's Prop 50 and thinking about how it might affect them?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Look, I think it's an important conversation. I think it's a difficult conversation, especially for us as we think about what democratic values really mean, when we talk about that as an ideal. Are these major redistricting efforts really the way we want to be thinking about our elections from now on? There are cases to be made on both sides. I think to some degree, if this is going to be the state of the future, you have to level the playing field.  I think that's what California's voters said. They said, We need a level playing field. We need those extra five seats. You know, again, my concern is, where are we going to see the ripple effects of this? Now some states are absolutely backing off these redistricting efforts immediately after this election, which I probably think is maybe the better or the safer way to go.  Because, again, one of the things to keep in mind is, when you create these new seats, you have to think about who are going to be the people running in these seats, whether we're talking about California or Texas. Are we now inviting people from the more extreme parts of the party to be running for these offices, and are we going to like what we get when those people win?  Manya Brachear Pashman:  Could you go back and explain to listeners what prop 50 is? Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Absolutely. So basically, prop 50 was on the ballot and California voters got to vote for it yesterday in the election. Basically it allows California to now create a new map, and it'll be with five seats that likely, I should say, will heavily favor Democrats. It will change the map of California pretty drastically in the upcoming midterm elections. Manya Brachear Pashman:  And it's similar to the redistricting that happened in Texas, for example, although it wasn't as drastic a change, correct? I believe that's true, yes, but other states are redistricting as well, or at least discussing redrawing their maps.  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Yeah, other states are now talking about it. But like I said, I'm seeing some early sort of signs from some of these states that they may be backing off of that conversation. Again, you don't really know how it's going to play out when you do these efforts. I'll also say that it seems like the campaign to run this prop 50, it seemed a little disorganized all around and so again, if you're going to do this sort of thing, you really want to know that you're going to win it, because it can have really detrimental effects from cycle to cycle, election to election.  So we'll sort of see, when we look at them, at these elections, these off-year elections, they're signals. They're signals to the major parties, they're signals to state parties, they're signals to voters.  And so I think everyone's sort of now doing the analysis in just the hours after this election to see, okay, what does it mean? You know, should we be pivoting our messaging? Are we pivoting the way that we're doing things? And I think we're going to see some shuffling.  And you can, again, you can already sort of see it. You'll hear it in some commentary. You'll see it on Twitter. People are a little bit, there are nerves out there. There's a lot of spin. Every party is going to sort of present their case here. But again, I think there's a lot to learn from what happened yesterday, and we're going to see these effects in the days ahead, in the weeks ahead, and absolutely in the months ahead.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So where else should we be talking about? We mentioned Virginia, we mentioned New York and New Jersey and California. Were there any other elections of note?  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Yeah, there were some local Supreme Court races in Pennsylvania that went democratic, that could have gone either way. There was something in Maine, an absentee ballot measure that was a Republican-led measure that was voted down, and many viewed that as a way to sort of bring voter participation down. So that was considered, I'd say, a win from a democratic perspective.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  Wonderful, well Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us and putting this week's election in perspective.  Rebecca Yoskowitz Klein:  Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with former White House speechwriter Sarah Hurwitz about her new book As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us.

"To me, that ark is: engaging deeply with our traditions. It's reclaiming some of what we lost when we were assimilating and trying to fit in. We have thousands of years of text that have such wisdom about the human condition, about how to be a good person, and lead a worthy life . . . What we can really do is, we can be Jews. And to be a Jew has always been to be different." Sarah Hurwitz—former White House speechwriter and New York Times bestselling author of Here All Along—returns to People of the Pod to discuss her new book, As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us. Hurwitz reflects on why antisemitism remains, in her words, "the least mysterious phenomenon," and how Jews can reclaim pride, wisdom, and purpose through Jewish text, practice, and community. Drawing from her work as a hospital chaplain and her conversations with Jewish students on campus, she makes a powerful case for reconnecting with the depth and resilience of Jewish tradition. Key Resources: AJC's Translate Hate Glossary AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:     During the Obama administration, Sarah Hurwitz served as senior speech writer for President Barack Obama and chief speech writer for First Lady Michelle Obama. But after she left the White House, she did a little bit of soul searching, and in her mid 30s, reconnected with her Judaism. She wrote about it in a book titled Here All Along, and joined us at the time to talk about it. Sarah has returned with us this week to talk about the book that followed, titled As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us.  Sarah, welcome back to People of the Pod. Sarah Hurwitz:  Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So your title has a very powerful accusation. So tell us who is blaming, shaming and trying to erase us? Sarah Hurwitz:   Yeah. So, you know, it's funny. My first book, as you know, was this love letter toJudaism. This, this journey of discovery of Jewish tradition, and I loved it so much, and I wanted to share it. You know, as I was writing it, I was thinking, Oh, where has this been all my life. Kind of a lovely, almost rhetorical question. But after it came out, a few things kind of happened that made me actually ask that question more seriously. Like, Wait, why did I not see any of the 4000 years of Jewish wisdom growing up?  The first thing was, I trained to be a volunteer hospital chaplain, and you know, chaplaincy is multifaith, open to chaplains of all backgrounds. But you know, the training was kind of weirdly Christian. You know, we would talk about our ministry and our theology. And I was told that prayer is God, please heal so and so who's right here in front of me, and I'm just making this prayer up spontaneously, and they can hear me, and that's prayer. And everyone prays that way, I was told. I said, You know that that's not really a common form of Jewish prayer. But I was told, No, no, as long as you don't say Jesus, it is universal. That's interesting.  And then something else that happened is I visited a college campus probably a year before October 7, and I was talking to students there at the Hillel, talking to a bunch of Jewish students. And one of them asked me, What did you do to respond to antisemitism when you were in college? And I was so stunned, I didn't even understand the question at first. And then I said, I didn't, not once, never. Not a single time did I deal with antisemitism.  And the kids just looked kind of shocked, like they didn't believe me. And they started sharing stories of the antisemitism they were facing on campus. And I thought, uh oh, something's going on here. And then I really began kind of taking a deep dive into my identity.  Of like, wait, so why did I spend my whole life being like, oh, I'm just a cultural Jew. I knew nothing about Jewish culture. Which is a beautiful way to be Jewish, being a cultural Jew, but I knew nothing about history, language, anything like that. When I said I'm an ethnic Jew, but Jews are of every ethnicity, so that's nonsense.  Or I'd say social justice is my Judaism, but I didn't know anything about what Judaism said about social justice. Unlike these wonderful Jews who do know about social justice and spend their lives acting out Jewish social justice.  And so I took a deep dive into history, and what I discovered was 2000 years of antisemitism and anti-Judaism and 200 years of Jews in Western Europe in a very understandable attempt to escape that persecution, kind of erasing many of our traditions. And I think that was kind of my answer to, where has this been all my life? And also my answer to, why did I have such an apologetic Jewish identity for so much of my life? Manya Brachear Pashman:     In my introduction, I left off half the title of your first book because it was very long, but I am curious, kind of, when did you realize . . . well, let me give the full title of your book, it's Here All Along: Finding Meaning, Spirituality, and a Deeper Connection to Life--in Judaism (After Finally Choosing to Look There).  So I guess, how was that delayed connection to Judaism, can you elaborate a little bit more about how it was tied to these forces that you just talked about? Sarah Hurwitz:  Yeah, so, you know, something that I didn't really fully understand, I had intimations of this, but didn't really understand this, is that, you know, 2000 years ago, early Christianity very much defined itself against Judaism. There was actually a name for this, the Aversos Judeos tradition, which means against the Jews in Latin.  And you know, early Church Fathers very much were defining Christianity against Judaism, because back then, both of these traditions had originated from Judaism. And you know they parted ways at some point, and the Church Fathers were really trying to distinguish Christianity from Judaism, and to get people to stop kind of practicing both traditions. This tradition really continues with Judaism defined as unspiritual, legalistic, depraved, dead, spiritually superseded. A lot of very, very ugly tropes that kind of have common themes that say that Jews are diabolically powerful, so supernaturally powerful, you can't even believe it. They are also profoundly depraved, evil, bloodthirsty, perverse, and they're in a conspiracy to hurt you. So there may be very few of them, but man, they are working together to really do harm.  And you see these three themes kind of making their way through history, unfortunately, all the way basically, until the Holocaust. And I based a lot of my writing on the work of a number of really distinguished Christian scholars who make this argument. It's actually a pretty common argument among Christian scholars.  And, you know, in recent decades, the church has very much disavowed its historic anti-Judaism and has worked very hard to, you know, fight antisemitism in the church. But, you know, these things really did kind of continue on through the 20th century. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So you do describe in your book moments when you got oddly defensive about your Judaism, or perhaps a bit revisionist about Jewish history and the origin of Jewish traditions, or the reason why they exist now in modern day. Can you elaborate on some of those moments for our listeners and explain how you've self-corrected thatdefense? Sarah Hurwitz:  You know, I think a lot of it took the form of, oh, I'm Jewish, but not that Jewish. It was just sort of this immediate, but I'm not one of those Jews. You know, those really Jewish Jews. Well, I'm sorry, would it be a problem if I were? What if social justice wasn't my Judaism, but Judaism was my Judaism? Would that be okay? You know, just beginning to notice, like, Why am I always kind of pushing it away, claiming that I'm not too Jewish? That's a very strange way to announce someone's identity. I think, you know, Dara Horn has actually a really, quite an amazing essay called The Cool Kids, and she talks about these two different types of antisemitism. And one is this kind of eliminationist antisemitism which says the Jews are bad, there's nothing they can do to be good. We must kill them. And you know, that is the Holocaust, pogroms. We learn about that kind of antisemitism in school. But there's another kind of antisemitism, which is conversionist, which says, yes, the Jews are bad, but there is something they can do to be okay and saved. And that is, they can disavow whatever we, the majority, find disgusting about Jewish civilization.  So you know, back in the day, it was, reject Jewish religion and convert to Christianity, and you'll be saved, maybe. For some amount of time, possibly. In my parents and grandparents generation, it was, you know, reject your last name, get a nose job. Stop being so "Jewy", be a little bit more "waspy," and then maybe we'll let you into our club. Then maybe we'll accept you.  And today, what you see is you have to reject your ancestral homeland, you know, reject Israel, and then you'll be okay. And, you know, I visited 27 college campuses, and I kind of saw how this sometimes takes on the format of almost like a Christian conversion narrative, where it goes something like, you know, growing up, my rabbi and my parents told me Israel was perfect and amazing and a utopia. And then I got to college, and I realized that actually it's a colonialist, Nazi, racist society, and I had an epiphany. I saw the light, and I took anti-Zionism and anti-colonialism into my heart, and now I'm saved. Now I'm a good Jew. And their classmates are like, now you're a good Jew.  And as Dara Horn puts it, this kind of antisemitism involves the weaponization of shame. It involves really trying to convince Jews that there is something fundamentally shameful about some aspect of themselves, their identity, their tradition. And today, that thing is Israel. This idea that there's something fundamentally . . . it's like the original sin of the world. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And you also talk about the tradition of circumcision, and how that came up, and you found yourself explaining this to someone. Can you elaborate on that for our listeners? Which I thought was really interesting.  Sarah Hurwitz:  This was during an encounter with a patient. I was doing a chaplaincy shift, and  usually I don't tell my patients my religious background, I'm very neutral, unless they're Jewish, in which case, I do tell them I'm Jewish. But, you know, I was finishing up a conversation with this very lovely lady. And she was very curious about my background. And so I told her, you know, I'm Jewish. And her eyes kind of lit up, and she said, Oh, you know, many of my neighbors are Jewish. I've actually been to two brisses in the past month.  And she just, you know, and she was so lovely, like, she actually seemed to be just really happy to be included in this tradition of her neighbors. And I got weirdly defensive, and was like, Oh, well, you know, just so, you know, medical professionals, they say whether you circumcise or don't circumcise, it's really, it's equally safe either way. And you know, we often, you know, when we do brisses, they're often done by a medical provider.  And I'm going on and on and like, this woman did not say the slightest negative thing about this tradition, but suddenly I am defensive. Suddenly it's like, Huh, interesting. You know, I think that it was an illustration to me of the way that we can sometimes really imbibe all of the kind of negative views about Jews and Jewish traditions that are around us, and become defensive, and sometimes we don't even realize that they're there. It's almost like they're the air that we breathe. Manya Brachear Pashman:     But let me challenge that and push back a little bit. I mean, is it okay to not agree with some of the traditions of the Jewish faith and be open about your disagreement with that? I certainly know a lot of Christians who don't like things that emerge from their tradition or from their community. Is that okay? Or is it not when Judaism is threatened? Sarah Hurwitz:  So I actually do think that's okay. You know, I have no problem with that, but I think the problem in this situation was that I have no problem with circumcision, but I'm suddenly getting defensive and trying to convince this woman that it's not weird. And I'm thinking, why am I doing this? It was very interesting to me that I felt so suddenly defensive and anxious. You know, it was very surprising to me. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And similarly, it's okay to criticize Israeli policy too, right? I mean, it's totally acceptable.  Sarah Hurwitz:  Absolutely. This is the thing that I'm so confused about. Where people are saying, well, you know, you're saying that it's not okay to criticize Israel. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Have you been to Israel? It's like the national pastime there to criticize the government. I criticize the Israeli government all the time, as do millions of American Jews.  This idea that this is somehow… that we're somehow reacting to criticism of Israel, that's ridiculous. I think what we're reacting to is not criticism of Israel, but it's something else. You know, when you have students on a college campus saying from water to water, Palestine should be Arab, or Israelis are Nazis. I just, with all due respect, I don't see that as criticism. Nor would I see it as criticism if, God forbid, a Jewish student ever said from water to water, Israel should be Jewish, or, Palestinians are terrorists. That is hateful, disgusting, racist, eliminationist language. And if I ever heard a Jewish student say that, I mean, let me tell you, I would have quite a talking to with that kid.  So that's not criticism. Criticism is, I am vehemently opposed and abhor, this policy, this ideology, this action, for these reasons. That's criticism. And I think you can use real strong language to do that kind of criticism. But there's a difference between a criticism and slurs and baseless accusations. And I think we need to be just clear about that. Manya Brachear Pashman:     All right, so you just use the term from water to water instead of from river to sea. Was that on purpose? Sarah Hurwitz:  Not necessarily. It's just a clearer illustration of what I think from the river to the sea really means, you know, I think  that is the Arabic that is used. Infrom the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free. It's like, you can kind of make an argument that this is about Palestinian Liberation. And okay, fair enough. But I think when you get the from water to water, it shall be Arab, that's when I think there's less of an argument that it's about freedom, and it seems a little bit more eliminationist to me. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Interesting. I've not heard that before. But I like that. So you call antisemitism the least mysterious phenomenon. Can you please explain what you mean by that? Sarah Hurwitz:  Yeah, you know, I think, like a lot of young people, my antisemitism education was mainly just Holocaust education. And I kind of walked away thinking like, huh, how wild that the civilized world just lost its mind in the mid-20th century and started killing Jews. That's so shocking and disturbing, you know, why is that? And the answer was kind of like, well, you know, the Germans lost World War I. They blamed the Jews. There was a depression. They blamed the Jews.  And when you ask why the Jews, it's like, well, because of prejudice and scapegoating. I'm like, Okay, right. But again, why the Jews? Prejudice and scapegoating, that's the answer. It's like, well, actually, the answer really is because of 2000 years of Christian anti-Judaism that preceded that. It wasn't mysterious why the Jews were targeted.  This was a 2000-year neural groove that had been worn into the Western world psyche. And this is not my argument. This is the argument of countless Christian scholars whose brilliant work I cite. And so I think that the unfortunate thing about some forms of Holocaust education is that it leaves you with the impression that, oh, this is so mysterious, it's just kind of eternal and kind of comes out of nowhere. Or even worse, you might even think maybe we did something to deserve this. But it's not mysterious. I can show you its path through history.  And I think it's very important that Jews understand this history. And look, I think this is very hard to teach in an average American public school. Because, you know, we live in a country where, you know, saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas is very upsetting for some people. They feel very threatened and triggered by that.  So for a teacher to say, like, Okay, kids today we're going to learn about how 2000 years of Christian anti-Judaism paved the way for the Holocaust . . . I don't think that's going to go well. Even if many mainstream Christian scholars would agree that that's true, this is a challenge that we face. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So you have continued, as you said, to visit college campuses where antisemitism has been an issue since October 7, more of an issue than it even was beforehand. And yet, when you were at Harvard and Harvard Law, you've said you could have walked through Harvard Yard wrapped in an Israeli flag and no one would have said a word or reacted negatively. So what has changed, and does it signal a more general shift on campuses of kind of uncensored, unbridled speech?  In other words, if black students support black lives matter, or gay students are marching for pride, do you feel like there's a sense that students who disagree with that from either the right or the left, have kind of claimed a license to criticize that too? Sarah Hurwitz:  No. I try to explain to college students when they say, Well, okay, my campus isn't that bad, you know, I can wear my Jewish star, and I won't get, you know, harassed or ostracized. And I say, like, okay, great, if it's not that bad, I'll just wear my Israel t-shirt and we'll see how it goes. They're like, No.  And then I have to go through this long litany of like, okay, if your black classmate said to you, well, this campus isn't so bad for black students, but I can't wear my Black Lives Matter t-shirt or else I'll be harassed and ostracized. I hope you would say that's not okay, that's racism, pretty clear. Or if your queer classmate said, Well, this campus is pretty good for queer people, but I can't wear my pride t-shirt, I hope you would say, That's not pretty good. That's homophobia.  You know, when the majority feels entitled to decide how the minority can embody and express their identity, I think we have a really serious problem. And  sometimes the kids will push back on me. Well, no, no, but the problem isn't being Jewish. It's Israel. I'm like, okay, but if your Chinese American classmate wore a t-shirt that said China, even if all your classmates knew that the Chinese government had been interning a million Muslim Uighurs in camps and subjecting them to horrific human rights violations, would they harass and ostracize her?  And they're like, Well, probably not. Right, because they would assume that she has a relationship to China that maybe involves having heritage there, or maybe she studied abroad there, or maybe she's studying Chinese, maybe she has family there. I think they would assume that she has some connection to the country that doesn't involve agreeing with the policies of the Chinese government, and Jewish students on campus really aren't afforded that courtesy.  And I'll tell you, most of the Jewish students I spoke with on campus, they, like me, are extremely critical of this current Israeli government. Extremely, extremely critical. They have all sorts of criticisms about what's happening in Gaza, of the occupation.  You know, their views are quite nuanced and complex, but there is no room given for that. You know, I think on some college campuses, Israel has been put into the same bucket as the KKK and the Nazi party. So I can't say to you, look, you know, I'm a Nazi, but I'm a liberal Nazi. Or, oh, you know, I'm in the KKK, but I'm not racist. It's like, come on, right?  These are vile entities with which no connection is acceptable, period. And I think once Israel ceases to be a country and instead becomes the representation of all evil in the world, there's really no relationship that you can have with it that's acceptable. And I think that is a pretty devastating place for it to be today.  And I'll tell you, I think it's a really challenging moment right now where I, like a lot of American Jews, I'm a Zionist. I believe that Jews have a right to a safe and secure home state in their ancestral homeland. I believe we have the right to national independence and self determination, like Japanese people have in Japan and Latvians have in Latvia, and on and on. And you know, we've run that experiment of Jewish powerlessness for 2000 years, and it didn't go well. Even as late as the 20th century. It wasn't just that two thirds of Jews in Europe got wiped out because of the Holocaust.  It's that nearly a million Jews who lived in Arab lands had to flee persecution, most of them to Israel. It's that 2 million Russian Jews had to flee persecution, half of them to Israel. It's that 10s of 1000s of Ethiopian Jews, I can go on and on. So we know, we've run that experiment of Jewish statelessness, and it doesn't go well.  And at the same time, we are looking at this current Israeli government, and we are appalled. We're appalled by the ideology, we're appalled by many of the policies. And you know, for me as an American, this feels very familiar, because I love this country. I'm a proud, patriotic American, and I happen to very much disagree with the current president. I happen to be very much appalled by the current president's policies and ideology. And so, I think many people are able to hold that, but somehow it's harder with Israel, because of what is in the air right now. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So, really you're saying that antisemitism has distorted history. Distorted people's understanding of Israel's history, their understanding of modern Israel's rebirth and existence. It spawned anti-Zionism. Correct?  Sarah Hurwitz:   Yes. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Did you encounter that during your time in the Obama administration? Do you see it now, in hindsight or or is it a more recent emergence? Sarah Hurwitz:   I think this is more recent. I mean, you know, probably in some spaces it was, you know, I was in the administration from 2009 to 2017. I never once saw any kind of anti-Zionism or antisemitism. I mean, it was one of the best places to be a proud, passionate Jew. I knew my colleagues could not have been more supportive of my Jewish exploration. They were so proud when I wrote my first book.  So I never saw any of this ever, once. And I think, you know, I think what is so confusing about this is that we often think about antisemitism as a kind of personal prejudice, like, oh, you know, Jews are fill in the blank, nasty thing. They are dirty, cheap, crass. I don't want my daughter to marry one. I don't want one in my country club.  You don't really see that kind of antisemitism in the circles where I travel anymore. What you see instead is more of political antisemitism, which is antisemitism as a kind of conspiracy theory that says that we, the majority, are engaged in a grand moral project, and the only thing stopping us are these Jews. We the majority are Christianizing the Roman Empire.  The only thing stopping us, these Jews who won't convert. We the majority are bringing about the brotherhood of man, the great communist revolution. The only thing stopping us, these capitalist Jews. We the Germans, are bringing about the great, racially pure Aryan fatherland. The only thing stopping us – these race-polluting Jews.  And today in America, you see it on the right and the left. On the right, it's, you know, we white Christian Americans are bringing back white Christian civilization to America. And the only thing stopping us are these Jews who are importing black and brown immigrants to replace white people. That is the extremely racist and antisemitic theory known as the Great Replacement theory. It is an ugly, disgusting lie.  On the left you have, you know, we this very moral group of people. we are bringing about the revolution of anti-colonialism, anti-Zionism. And the only thing stopping us are these colonialist Zionists, which is a polite way of saying Jews. And so, you know, I think it's very important to understand, as Yossi Klein Halevi, the journalist, puts it, you know, what you see again and again is whatever is the worst thing in a society, that is what the Jews are deemed to be. Whatever is the worst thing among a particular population, that is what the Jews are deemed to be. And I think we're kind of seeing that on both the right and the left today. Manya Brachear Pashman:     If antisemitism defines so much, or has defined so much of Jewish identity, how do we reclaim that? How have you reclaimed that? And how have you found joy in your Jewish identity, especially after doing this book and immersing yourself and all of this extremely depressing perspective? Sarah Hurwitz:   I hear this kind of line among many Jews that breaks my heart. It's this sort of self-flagellation, of like, if we just had the right PR campaign, if we just had the right tweet, then we would fight antisemitism. It's our fault, we're doing such a bad job fighting antisemitism. And, you know, I love the ambition there. I think that is so sweet.  But there are 16 million of us in the whole world. That's with an M, million, like the size of like, the fifth largest city in China. We are a Chinese city. There are billions of people who don't really love us out there. And the idea that we, this tiny group of people, is going to somehow change the minds of billions of people. I really respect the ambition, but I think that's a tough one.  I think it's sort of like trying to bail out a tsunami with buckets. You know, if enough of us do it, I'm sure we can make a difference. And I have such respect for the people who are doing that work. I think it's very important. But I also would just suggest that maybe we should put a little more of our energy into building an ark to weather the storm.  And you know, to me, that ark is, engaging deeply with our traditions. It's reclaiming, I think, some of what we lost when we were assimilating and trying to fit in. You know, we have thousands of years of text that have such wisdom about the human condition, about how to be a good person and lead a worthy life and find profound spiritual connection. We have just so many beautiful traditions. And so I think that what we can really do is, we can be Jews. And to be a Jew has always been to be different.  That was kind of our value proposition thousands of years ago when we came along and said, hey guys, monotheism. Totally different way of thinking. We said, hey, every human being is created in the image of God, which is an idea that every human being is infinitely worthy. Which, again, this is the idea that underlies things like liberalism, democracy, human rights. These are really Earth-shatteringly different counter cultural ideas, and we have so many more of those that I still think the world needs today.  So I think that rather than just being anti-anti-semites, that we can be proud Jews instead, and we can really focus on becoming more learned, more vibrant members of our communities, you know, engaging in more of our traditions and our rituals.  I also think, you know, Dara Horn has been doing a lot of great work about educating kids about Jewish civilization. Rather than having young people only know about the Jews via the Holocaust, she really wants to teach young people about Jewish civilization, ideas, and people. I think that is a very, very powerful and very helpful idea. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So how are you doing this? How do you spend each week? How do you reclaim some of these traditions and joy? Sarah Hurwitz:    For me, it's studying. That's really how I engage, you know, I have various chavrutas or I study Jewish texts. I love reading Jewish books, and I love participating in the Jewish community. You know, I love engaging with various Jewish organizations, you know, serving on various committees, and just trying to be part of this project of reclaiming Judaism, of making it more accessible to more Jews. This is what I love doing, and I'll be starting in January. I'm actually going to be starting a rabbinic program at the Hartman Institute. It's a part time program.  And I'm not not planning to be a congregational rabbi, but I do want to keep writing books, and I am really grateful for this opportunity to get a much deeper, more thorough Jewish education than the one I've kind of given to myself, and, you know, kind of cobbled together. I think this is going to be a really extraordinary opportunity. So I'm very excited about that.  Manya Brachear Pashman:     Oh, wow. Well, congratulations. I look forward to welcoming you back to the podcast and calling you Rabbi.  Sarah Hurwitz: Thank you. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Thank you so much for joining us, Sarah. Sarah Hurwitz:  Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.   

How did the Israeli economy react to the war against Hamas?  Hear from a major player on the ground – Dr. Eugene Kandel, former economic adviser and Chairman of the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange, discusses Israel's financial resilience after the war against Hamas. Having made aliyah from the Soviet Union in 1977 with his family, Dr. Kandel covers the stock market rebound, missed economic opportunities with Jordan and Egypt, and the success of the Abraham Accords.  *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Take Action: Elected Leaders: Demand Hamas Release the Hostages  Key Resources: AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:   Professor Eugene Kandel served as economic adviser to the Prime Minister of Israel from 2009 to 2015, and with Ron Sor is a co-founder of Israel's Strategic Futures Institute. He is also chairman of the Tel Aviv stock exchange, the only public stock exchange in Israel, known locally as the Bursa. He is with us now to talk about the impact of Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza on Israel's economy, the potential and impact so far of the Abraham Accords, and how history could one day view October 7 as a turning point for Israel's democracy.  Dr. Kandel, welcome to People of the Pod. Eugene Kandel:   Thank you. Thank you for having me.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   Before we begin, your family came to Israel in 1977. Can you share your family's Aliyah story? Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, when I was 14, my family was living very comfortably in the Soviet Union. My father was a quite known writer, playwright, a script writer. And around him was a group of Jewish people of culture that were quite known in their domains, mostly Jewish. And so at some point in 67 he sort of had this vision and started studying Hebrew. But 1970 and then by '73 when I was 14 years old, he came to me and said, Look, your mom and I decided to immigrate to Israel. What do you think about it, and I said, I don't know what I think about it. Okay, you know, if we want to immigrate, let's immigrate. I never felt too much belonging there. So unfortunately, Soviet authorities had other ideas about that. So we spent four years as refuseniks. My father, together with Benjamin Fine, were the editors of the underground publication called Tarbut. And for people who did not live there, they put their names on it. So this was, these were typewritten copies of Jewish culture monthly. And there were two names on it. You could go to jail for this. My father was always pretty brave man for his petite size, because during the Second World War, he was very, very hungry, to say the least. So he didn't really grow very much. But he's very big inside.  And so the following four years were pretty tough on them, because he couldn't work anywhere. Just like in McCarty years in this country, people would give work to their friends and then publish it under their own name. That's what he did for his friends, and they would share the money with him, or give him most of the money. There were very, very brave people. And then, you know, there was an incident where they wanted to send a message to my father to be a little less publicly outspoken. And so two KGB agents beat me up.  And that started a whole interesting set of events, because there was an organization in Chicago called Chicago Action for Soviet Jewry. Pamela Cohen. And I actually met Pamela when I was studying at the University of Chicago. And thanked her. So they took upon themselves to harass Soviet cinema and theater and culture officials. And so they were so successful that at some point, the writers league from Hollywood said that nobody will go to Moscow Film Festival unless they release us because they do not want to associate with people who beat up children. I wasn't a child, I was 17 years old, but still. And that sort of helped. At least, that's how we think about it.  So it's worthwhile being beaten up once in a while, because if it lets you out, I would take it another time. And then we came to Israel in a very interesting time. We came to Israel four hours after Anwar Sadat left. So we came to a different Israel. On the brink of a peace agreement with Egypt. And so that was it.  We came to Mevaseret Zion, which was an absorption center. A small absorption center. Today I actually live probably 500 yards from where we stayed. Sort of full circle.  And today, it's a significant, it's about 25,000 people town. And that's the story, you know, in the middle, in between then and now, I served in the military, did two degrees at Hebrew University, did two degrees at the University of Chicago, served as professor at the University of Rochester, and then for 28 years, served as professor of economics and finance at the Hebrew University. So I keep doing these circles to places where I started. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You say you arrived four hours after Sadat's visit to Israel on the brink of a peace agreement with Egypt. Did that peace agreement live up to expectations? Eugene Kandel:   Well, it depends what are your expectations. If your expectation will continue in the war, it definitely did, because, you know, for the last, you know, whatever, 48 years, we didn't have any military activity between Israel and Egypt. And we even have security collaboration to some extent. But if you're thinking about real peace, that would translate into people to people peace, business to business peace, it did not generate that at all. Because there was a very, very strong opposition on the street level and on the intellectuals level.  It actually started to break a little bit, because today you can find analysts on Egyptian television that are saying that we are, we are stupid because we don't collaborate with Israel. It is allowed today, It's allowed to be said in, you know, 20-30, years [ago], that person would have been ostracized and would never be allowed to speak.  So there is some progress, but unfortunately, it's a huge loss for the Egyptian economy. For Israeli economy, it is probably also a loss, but Israeli economy has a lot of alternatives in other countries. But Egyptians don't seem to be able to implement all the things that Israelis implemented a long time ago. You know, whether it's water technologies, whether it's energy technologies. Lots of lots of stuff, and it's really, really unfortunate that we could have helped Egyptian people, the same people who rejected any relations with us. And that's a pity. Manya Brachear Pashman:   The next peace agreement that came was with Jordan in 1994, quite some time later. Did that peace agreement live up to expectations, and where were you in 1994? Eugene Kandel:   1994, I was a professor at the University of Rochester, so I wasn't involved at all. But again, it was a very, very similar story. It was the peace that was sort of forced from above. It was clearly imposed on the people despite their objections, and you saw demonstrations, and you still see. But it was clear to the leadership of Jordan that Israel is, in their case, is absolutely essential for the survival of the Hashemite Dynasty. In the end the Israeli intelligence saved that dynasty, many, many times.  But again, it wasn't translated into anything economic, almost anything economic, until in the early 2000s there were some plants in Jordan by Israeli businessmen that were providing jobs, etc. But I was privileged to be the first to go to Jordan together with American officials and negotiate the beginning of the gas agreement.  We were selling gas to Jordan, because Jordan was basically going bankrupt because of the high energy costs. Jordan doesn't have its own energy, apart from oil shale. Sorry, shale oil. And for some reason they weren't able to develop that. But Israeli gas that we are selling to them as a result of what we started in 2012 I believe. Actually very important for the Jordanian economy. And if we can continue that, then maybe connect our electrical grid, which is now in the works, between the water-energy system.  And now maybe there is a possibility to connect the Syrian grid. If we have an agreement with Syria, it will help tremendously these countries to get economic development much faster. And it will help Israel as well, to balance its energy needs and to maybe get energy, provide energy, you know, get electricity, provide gas. You know, there's all these things where we can do a lot of things together. If there is a will on the other side. There's definitely will on the Israeli side. Manya Brachear Pashman:   In addition to gas, there's also water desalination agreements, as well, right? Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, there was a Red to Dead project, which was to pump the water all the way from the Red Sea along the Arava Valley. And then there is a 400 meter, 500 meter drop. And so to generate electricity through that desalinate that water that you pump, and then send that water to Egypt, send the electricity that was generated and not needed to Israel and then dump this salt stuff into the Dead Sea. Frankly, I don't know where this project is. Nobody talks about it for the last seven, eight years. I haven't heard.  Now there are different projects where you would get energy generated in Jordan and sold to Israel in Eilat, for example, because it's difficult for us to bring electricity all the way South. And so if the Jordanians have large fields of photovoltaic energy they can sell, they can satisfy the needs of a lot, and then in return, we can desalinate water and send it to them. So there's all kinds of projects that are being discussed. Manya Brachear Pashman:   But Israel does provide water to Jordan, correct? Eugene Kandel:   There are two agreements. One agreement, according to our peace agreement, we are supposed to provide them with a certain amount of water. I don't remember the exact amount. But that's not enough, and so we also sell them water. So think about it. There is a sweet water reservoir called Tiberius, Kinneret, in the north, and we sending water from there into two directions according to the agreement. We're sending it to Amman, pumping it up to the mountains, and then we're sending it throughout the Jordan Valley, all the way along the Jordan River, to the Jordanian side. So it's quite striking when I used to go between Jerusalem and Amman, it's actually an hour and a half drive. That's it. You go down, you go up, and you're there.  And so when you're passing the Israeli side, you see the plantations of date palms that are irrigated with drip irrigation. So very, very economically, using the brackish salt water that is pumped out of the ground there. You cross two miles further, you see banana plantations that are flood irrigated at 50-centigrade weather, and the water that comes from them comes on an open canal. So basically, 50% of the water that we send this way evaporates. Growing bananas in that climate and using so much water, it's probably, if you take into account the true cost of water, it's probably money losing proposition, but they're getting the water. The people that are the settlements on that Bank of Jordan River, are getting it for free. They don't care. And if somebody would just internalize that, and instead of sending the water down in an open canal, would send the whole water up to Amman, where there is a shortage of water, enormous shortage of water. And then you would take the gravity and use that water to generate electricity, to clean that water, the sewage, clean it and drip irrigate plantations, everybody would make enormous amounts of money. Literally enormous amounts of money. And everybody's lives would be better, okay? And I'm not talking about Israelis. It's within Jordan. And you can't say that there's no technology for that, because the technology is two miles away. You can see it.  And it just puzzles me. Why wouldn't that be done by some entrepreneurs, Jordanian entrepreneurs. We could really help with that. We could even help by buying the water from them back. The water that we give them, we can buy it back. Because in Israel, the water is very expensive. So we could finance that whole thing just by sending the water back, but that would be probably politically unacceptable, I don't know. But it's really, really . . . for an economist, it's just a sad story. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Missed opportunities. Well, let's go back. I introduced you as the chair of the Tel Aviv stock exchange, the Bursa. And I am curious. Let's talk about the economy. Does Israel treat its stock market the same way we do? In other words, are there opening and closing bells at the beginning and end of every day? How does the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange work compared to the United States? Eugene Kandel:   Well, we do have the opening bell, but it's usually reserved for some events. We don't have the events every day. Usually, if there's a new listing, or there's somebody celebrating, like, 20 years of listing, we have all kinds. Recently, we had Mr. Bill Ackman came and gave a speech and opened the trading together with us.  There are events around Jeffries Conference. But it's much more, you know, ceremony, I mean, it's not really connected to anything. Trading starts whether you press the button or don't. But Israeli stock exchange is unique in the following sense: it is an open limit book. What means that there is, you know, buyers meet sellers directly, and it works like that, not only in stocks, which is similar to what it is everywhere, but it's also in bonds, government bonds, corporate bonds, and in derivatives.  So in that sense, we do have our ceremonies, but the interesting thing is, what is happening with the exchange in the last two years. Accidentally, I joined two years ago as the chairman, and over the last two years, the stock exchange, the indices of Israeli Stock Exchange were the best performing out of all developed countries, by far. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Did that have something to do with the war? Eugene Kandel:   Well, it should have been, you know, in the opposite direction, but, the war is, not this length of war, not this intensity of war . . . but if you look back over at least 25 years, the Israeli economy responds very robustly to military conflict. Usually they're much shorter. If you look at even quarterly returns of the stock exchange, you would not know that there was a war in the middle, definitely not annual. If you look over the last 25 years, and you look at this stock, annual returns of the indices, you would not know that there was anything wrong, apart from our 2003 crisis, and Corona. Even the great financial crisis, you would not see it. I mean it was basically past us, because we didn't have a financial crisis in Israel. We had repercussions from, you know, the rest of the world's financial crisis, but we didn't get our own. And so we do have resilience built in, because we're just so used to it. However, having said that, it's the first time that we have such a long and intensive war on seven, whatever fronts. So it is quite surprising that just like any other time, it took about three months for the stock market to rebound after October 8. It was a big question whether to open the market on October 8. We struggled with it, and we decided that we do not want to give anybody the right to disrupt the Israeli economy.  I mean, it was a really tough decision, because there was certain people were saying, Well, how can you do that? It's a national tragedy. And of course, it was a national tragedy. But closing the market would have meant two things.  First of all, it would have shown the world that our economy can be interrupted. It would have given the benefit to those people that did these atrocities, that they managed to do more damage than they already did. And we didn't want to do that. And it didn't collapse. It went down, of course, but it rebounded within less than three months. By the end of that year, it was back on the same level. And then it did this comeback, which was quite phenomenal. And it's an interesting question, how come? Because during that time, we had some cases where Israel was boycotted by investors, very few, by the way, but we also saw many, many new investors coming in.  You could look at the war from the negative side. Of course, huge costs. But with all that, it was about 10% of annual GDP, because we are, you know, we're a big economy, and we borrowed that very easily because we had a very strong macro position before that. So we now 76% debt to GDP ratio. It's much lower than majority of developed countries. But we still had to borrow that. It was a lot of money, and then the defense budget is going to go up. So there is this cost.  But vis a vis that, A, Israeli technology has been proven to be unmatched, apart from maybe us technology in certain cases, but in some cases, even there, we have something to share. And so we have huge amounts of back orders for our defense industries. During the war, and they were going up when some of the countries that are making these purchases were criticizing us. They were learning from what we did, and buying, buying our equipment and software, etc.  And the second thing, we removed the huge security threat. If you look before October 7, we were quite concerned about 150,000 missiles, some of them precise missiles in Hezbollah's hands, an uninterrupted path from Iran through Syria to Hezbollah, constantly replenishing. We would bomb them sometimes in Syria, but we didn't catch all of them. We had Hamas, we had Hezbollah, we had Syrians, we had Iranians. We had, you know, not, you know, Iraqi militia. So, Hezbollah doesn't exist. Well, it exists, but it's nowhere near where it where was at. And the Lebanese Government is seriously attempting to disarm it. Syria, we all know what happened in Syria. We didn't lift a finger to do that. But indirectly, from what happened in Hezbollah, the rebels in Syria became emboldened and did what they did. We know what happened with Hamas. We know what happened with Iran. Okay, Iran, even Europeans reimposed the sanctions. So that's the side effect.  So if you look at the Israeli geopolitical and security situation, it's much, much better. And in that situation, once the war is over and the hostages are returned, and hopefully, we will not let this happen again, ever, to work hard so we remember that and not become complacent. It's an enormous, enormous boost to Israeli economy, because this security premium was quite big.  So that is on the positive side, and if we play smart, and we play strategically, and we regain sort of good relations with some of the countries which are currently very critical of us, and somehow make them immune to this anti Israeli antisemitism propaganda, we can really get going. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You mentioned investors. There were more investors after the war. Where were those investors coming from, internally or from other countries?  Eugene Kandel:   It's interesting that you asked this question, because in 2020, early 2024 a lot of Israeli institutions and individuals moved to S&P 500, and they got really hammered. Twice. Because A, S&P 500 was lagging behind the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange. So there was some other players coming in, because otherwise, when you move money, usually, you should see a drop, but you saw an increase. That meant that there are others came in. But the more interesting thing is that shekel was very weak when they bought dollars, and now shekel is about 15% stronger, so they lost 15% just on the exchange rate. And so a lot of money that went to S&P came back in the last six, eight months. So the internal money came back.  But on top of internal money, we looked at the behavior of foreign investors right after October 7. They didn't flee the country. Some of them sold stocks, bought bonds. And then so Israeli institutions made money on that, because Israeli institutions bought stocks from them at about 10%, 15% discount, and then when it rebounded, they made money. But that money didn't leave, it stayed in Israel, and it was very costly to repatriate it, because the shekel was very weak. And so buying dollars back was expensive. And the money slowly went into stocks. And then people made quite a lot of money on this. Manya Brachear Pashman:   The last topic I want to cover with you is external relations. You mentioned Syria, the potential of collaborating with Syria for water, gas. Eugene Kandel:   Electricity. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Electricity. And I presume that you're referring to the possibility of Syria being one of the next members to join the Abraham Accords. That has been mentioned as a possibility. Eugene Kandel:   Maybe. But we can, we can do something much less. Manya Brachear Pashman: Outside of the Accords. Eugene Kandel:   Outside of the Accords, or pre-Accord, or we can, we can just create some kind of collaboration, just we had, like as we had with UAE for for 15 years before the Accord was signed. Was a clear understanding.  Maybe. But we can, we can do something much less outside of the Accord, or pre-Accord, or we can, we can just create some kind of collaboration, just we had, like as we had with UAE for for 15 years before the Accord was signed. Was a clear understanding.  You know, I was in UAE, in Dubai on the day of signing of the Accord. I landed in Dubai when they were signing on the on the green loan, on the White House lawn. And we landed. It was amazing. It was the degree of warmth that we received from everybody, from ministers in the economy to ministers that came to speak to us, by the dozen to people in the hotel that were just meeting us. They issued, for example, before signing the Accord, there was a regulation passed by by UAE that every hotel has to have kosher food. We don't have that in Israel. I mean, hotels mostly have kosher food, but not all of them, and, and it's not by law.  This was, like, clear, we want these people to feel comfortable. It was truly amazing. I've never, I could never imagine that I would come to a country where we didn't have any relations until today, and suddenly feel very, very welcome. On every level, on the street, in restaurants. And that was quite amazing, and that was the result of us collaborating below the surface for many, many years. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Parity of esteem, yes? Suddenly. Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, they didn't feel they did exactly the important part when the UAE businessman or or Ambassador order you feel completely no chip on the shoulder whatsoever. They feel very proud of their heritage. They feel very proud of their achievements. They feel and you feel at the same level. They feel at the same level, just like you would with the Europeans. We always felt that there was something like when, when, Arab delegations, always tension. I don't know whether it was superiority or inferiority. I don't know. It doesn't matter, but it was always tension in here. I didn't feel any tension. Was like, want to do business, we want to learn from you, and you'll to learn from us. And it was just wow. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Same in Bahrain and Morocco? Eugene Kandel:   I haven't been to Bahrain and Morocco. I think Bahrain wants to do business. They were very even, sort of some of, we sent the delegation to Bahrain to talk about sort of Israeli technology and how to build an ecosystem in the same with Morocco. I think it's a bit different. I think it's a bit different because we didn't see much going on from from these two countries. Although Morocco is more advancing much faster than Bahrain. There are a lot of interesting proposals coming out of it.  There's a genuine desire there. In the last two years, of course, it was difficult for for anybody to do anything in those but interestingly, when almost no European airlines or American airlines were flying to us, Etihad and Emirates were flying to Israel. They were flying. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Past two years? Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, they would not stop. And you're just like, wow. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So would you say the Abraham Accords have had a significant impact on Israel's economy at all? Eugene Kandel:   I do not know. I mean, I don't have data on that by the sheer number. I mean, the the number of Israeli tourists Sue UAE, it's probably 10 or 20 to one to the vice versa. So we've been Israelis flooding UAE. In terms of investments, there are some technology investments. There's some, some more infrastructural investors, like they bought 20% of our gas field. There are collaborations between universities and research centers. So it's hard to measure, but you have to remember that there was a huge amount of trade and collaboration under the surface. So it surfaced. But that doesn't mean that there was an effect on the economy, just people suddenly saw it. So you don't know what the Delta was. If the same amount of business was suddenly coming out of Jordan, we would have seen, you know, big surge. So I'm not sure how much . . . I don't mean to say that there was no impact. I'm just saying that the impact was much more gradual, because there was so much already, right? But I'm sure that it is continuing, and the fact that these airlines were continuing to fly, indicates that there is a demand, and there's a business. Initially a lot of Israelis thought that there was, this was a money bag, and they would go there and try to raise money and not understanding culture, not understanding. That period is over. I mean, the Emiratis conveyed pretty clearly that they not. They're very sophisticated investors. They know how to evaluate so they do when they make investments, these investments make sense, rather than just because you wanted to get some money from somebody. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Well, thank you so much.  Eugene Kandel:   Thank you.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   If you missed our last episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with AJC's Director of Congressional Affairs Jessica Bernton. We spoke shortly after receiving the news that a deal had been reached and the hostages from the October 7 Hamas terror attack might finally come home after two years in captivity. That dream was partially realized last week when all the living hostages returned and the wait began for those who were murdered.  

"Since before he was President, he [Trump] has made it clear that this is a priority, and he has instructed his team to work on this issue day in and day out . . . " More than two years after the October 7 massacre, Hamas has agreed to return the 48 hostages still in Gaza under the U.S.-brokered peace deal. Jessica Bernton, AJC's Director of Congressional Affairs, shares details of AJC's joint advocacy with the hostage families of returned hostages—how personal stories, bipartisan meetings with Congress and the White House, and coordinated delegations kept the issue at the forefront. She reflects on the emotional weight of this work, its impact on the U.S. administration, and the ongoing need to press policymakers to ensure that all hostages are safely returned. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Take Action: Elected Leaders: Demand Hamas Release the Hostages Key Resources: AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:  More than two years after the October 7 massacre, the Hamas terror group has reportedly agreed at long last, to return the 48 hostages that remain in Gaza. With us now is Jessica Bernton, AJC's director of Congressional Affairs, who has been working with the families of hostages since day one to bring them all home. Jessica, welcome to People of the Pod. Jessica Bernton:  Thanks so much, Manya, it's a pleasure to be here.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So you must be so relieved. I know you've been so immersed in all of this. When can we celebrate though? Is now too soon? Jessica Bernton:  Oh, what a great question. I would say, I have this cautious optimism at the moment. There have been many ups and downs. There have been starts and stops throughout these long months and now two years, but this one does feel different. I would say, you know, this is the most progress we've seen since the spring, and we have to continue to have hope.  We also cannot afford to let up the pressure until every single hostage is returned home. And so I would say we cannot exhale until everyone is returned. And once everybody is walking across the border, or the deceased are returned home for burial, that is when we can truly celebrate. Once every single person is returned. Manya Brachear Pashman:  You said it feels different? How? How does it feel different? Jessica Bernton:  You know, there's been a lot of pressure exerted in recent weeks. I'd say the US administration has stepped up their efforts as well, working with other countries, including partners across the world here. And a deal was signed.  And so I think a lot can happen, though, between this announcement and actually, again, when hostages are returned, or when the first phase begins, and both sides need to continue to adhere to each side of the agreement. But this really is the most progress that there has been in some time. Manya Brachear Pashman:  As I said in the introduction, you've been working since day one, bringing delegations to Washington to meet with members of Congress, meet with White House staff, including both President Biden and President Trump. What has happened most recently that might have made a difference here? Jessica Bernton:  I think the most important thing here is that the families as well as the returned hostages, because we've been so far down in this process that we were advocating for the release of certain hostages, and now those individuals have come to DC and have been traveling across the world to make sure that their voice is heard. And they're speaking up for those that they were held in captivity with, who don't have a voice at the moment.  And so it's been really incredible and emotional to have advocated, let's say, for somebody like the return of Keith Siegel or Doron Steinbrecher. And now we have joined them in going to the Hill, into these meetings, advocating for the return of every single hostage, and that's been really incredible.  But I think the most important thing here is that these conversations have continued. And keeping this issue at the forefront of everybody's minds. The American public, government officials, foreign officials, community leaders, ensuring that the hostages have not been forgotten has been our top priority here, and ensuring that this remains a foreign policy priority for the US government in particular.  And clearly it has paid off, because these hostages have been able to continue to tell their story, and we are where we are today, and hopefully this progress will continue. But it's been really incredible to see this, especially in the past couple months, as those who have been returned or released have now come to Washington, DC as well and are able to do this type of advocacy.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  You mentioned Keith Siegel, one of the American-Israeli hostages, who was released earlier this year. They've been able to talk about their experiences, former hostages have been able to talk about their experiences in captivity and share that with President Trump in a way that their loved ones who were advocating for their release could not. What have they revealed about their experience that their loved ones could not possibly have known? Jessica Bernton:  You know, I think it's one thing to read articles or, you know, hear about what happened to them, and then it's another thing to hear it firsthand. And I think hearing about the brutality and the heartbreak and everything that they suffered, as well as what they've shared publicly about who they were held with and the information that they've been able to also offer to families and hope that they've been able to give to the families who don't know the status of their loved one.  Again, it's one thing to read an article and it's another to be sitting in a room listening to these incredibly powerful, emotional, and moving stories. And I think, you know, having them be able to share this has been incredibly important, and I think very impactful. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Is there a particular story or experience that stands out in your mind, that perhaps someone shared with you first intimately, before they shared it publicly? One that really stands out. Jessica Bernton:  I think I'll share a little bit about Ilana Gritzewsky, because we've hosted her for delegations, and our CEO, Ted Deutch joined with her at a press conference on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, on the second anniversary of the October 7 attacks. And she was also on Capitol Hill earlier this year, testifying at the House Foreign Affairs Committee at a bipartisan round table there. And she was brutally kidnapped alongside her partner, Matan Zangauker, who's still being held captive.  And the words that have stuck with me about Ilana, and also sort of you know the story with her partner, Matan, is that she said she cannot heal until everyone has returned home, and the rest of the hostages who have come home also cannot heal until every single person has been returned. And I think that is something that we've heard time and time again, this process, you know, in order for them to grieve, to heal, to process. I don't think there will ever be getting back to a normal life, but as much as they can, it will begin once everybody is returned home. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Former hostages, families of hostages have met with President Trump. He's welcomed them into the Oval Office. It seems like President Trump has made this a personal mission of his to get the hostages home. Perhaps that's why we've finally seen success and a deal made. Why do you think that might be the case? What moved the needle finally? Jessica Bernton:  Yeah, I mean, I think since before he was President, he has made it clear that this is a priority, and he has instructed his team to work on this issue day in and day out, and to have this access to a president like this is very notable. And we've seen these incredibly powerful images of released hostages, returned hostages, and also family members of those who are still captive meeting in the Oval Office.  And one can only assume that this has to be a priority for the President here, he's shown his seriousness. And again, we've now ended up with this current deal, which hopefully can be seen to fruition and can be implemented all the way. But it does seem like this has taken on greater importance as the months have gone on this past year, and it's truly incredible. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Any final thoughts, Jessica, as we wait to see the hostages actually return and the various components of this deal come to fruition? Jessica Bernton:  Yeah, I think you know, again, going back to this cautious optimism, I saw a video posted online where there's several returned hostages and released hostages, as well as family members who are in town this week, they've been in town for the second anniversary, and have been doing different meetings and events this week in Washington, DC. And they were on the phone with the President last night, you know, expressing their gratitude. And I think again, that's a powerful symbol here.  But going back to your initial question, and, is it too early to celebrate? We need to be cautiously optimistic and keep the pressure on, and hopefully we really can be celebrating on Monday, if that's when everyone is returned. But AJC will not stop until everybody, every single hostage, has been returned, and that's when we will truly celebrate here. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Thank you so much, Jessica. Really appreciate you joining us, and may we see all of this materialize in the days to come.  Jessica Bernton:  Absolutely thank you, Manya.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  Prior to the High Holidays, we brought you five episodes of our limited podcast series, architects of peace, the story of the Abraham accords. Our final episode deals with the challenges presented by the Israel-Hamas war.  As we approach a potential end to that war, we are pressing pause on that episode to make sure we include any significant developments. Until then, People of the Pod will resume its regular weekly interviews. Stay tuned for the final episode of Architects of Peace.

On the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, AJC hosted a conversation with Jason Greenblatt, a key architect of the Abraham Accords, and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro. They discussed the challenges threatening regional stability, from unilateral moves on Palestinian statehood to political pressures within Israel, and underscored what's at stake—and what it will take—to expand the Abraham Accords and advance peace. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  Episode lineup: Dan Shapiro (1:00) Jason Greenblatt (18:05) Full transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/accords-of-tomorrow-architects-of-peace-episode-5 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. AJC.org/AbrahamAccords - The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: AJC.org/ForgottenExodus AJC.org/PeopleofthePod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years – decades – in the making: landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords – normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf states, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs and turning the spotlight on some of the results. Introducing the Architects of Peace. On the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in September, American Jewish Committee hosted conversations with former Middle East envoy Jason Greenblatt, a key architect of the Abraham Accords, and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro:. Both diplomats discussed the dangers threatening peace in the region, including some countries' unilateral calls for Palestinian statehood. They shared what's at stake and what it will take to expand the Abraham Accords and make progress toward peace in the region. We're including those conversations as part of our series.  AJC's Chief Strategy and Communications Officer Belle Yoeli starts us off with Ambassador Shapiro. Belle Yoeli:  Ambassador Shapiro, thank you so much for being with us. We're going to speak primarily about unilateral recognition of Palestinian statehood, but I, of course, want to ask you a couple of questions, because you have so much to share with us before we dive in.  First and foremost, as we've said, It's been almost two years, and at AJC, we're all about optimism and playing the long game, as you know, but it does feel like the challenges for the Jewish community and the state of Israel continue to build. And of course, the war looms very large. What is your analysis of the geopolitical horizon for the war in Gaza. Dan Shapiro:  First, thanks for having me. Thank you to American Jewish Committee and to Ted and everybody for all you do. Thank you, Ruby [Chen], and the families, for the fellowship that we can share with you in this goal. I'll just say it very simply, this war needs to end. The hostages need to come home. Hamas needs to be removed from power. And aid needs to surge into Gaza and move forward with a reconstruction of Gaza for Palestinians who prepare to live in peace with Israel. This is something that is overdue and needs to happen. I think there have been a number of missed opportunities along the way. I don't say this in a partisan way. I think President Trump has missed opportunities at the end of the first ceasefire, when the first ceasefire was allowed to expire after the Iran strike, something I strongly supported and felt was exactly the right thing to do. There was an opening to create a narrative to end the war. I think there have been other missed opportunities. And I don't say in a partisan way, because the administration I served in, the Biden administration, we made mistakes and we missed opportunities. So it can be shared. that responsibility.  But what I do think is that there is a new opportunity right now, and we saw it in President Trump's meeting with Arab leaders. It's going to take very significant, deft, and sustained diplomatic effort. He's got a good team, and they need to do the follow through now to hold the Arabs to their commitments on ensuring Hamas is removed from power, on ensuring that there's a security arrangement in Gaza that does not leave Israel vulnerable to any possibility of a renewal of hostilities against it. And of course, to get the hostages released. That's pressure on the Arabs. And of course, he's got a meeting coming up with Prime Minister Netanyahu, and I do think he's going to need to lean on Prime Minister Netanyahu to overcome the resistance that he has to deal with in his cabinet, from those who want to continue the war or who those who rule out any role of any kind for the Palestinian Authority in something that will follow in the day after in Gaza.  So there is a real opportunity here. Once the war is over, then we have an opportunity to get back on the road that we were on. Two years ago at this UN General Assembly, I was serving as the Biden administration's Senior Advisor on regional integration, the first State Department position to hold that, trying to follow through on the excellent work that Jason Greenblatt and Jared Kushner and, of course, President Trump did in the first term in achieving the Abraham Accords. And we were building out the Negev Forum. And in fact, at that UNGA meeting, we had planned the next ministerial meeting of the Negev Forum. It was to take place October 19 in Marrakesh. Obviously, no one ever heard about that summit. It didn't happen. But getting back on the road to strengthening and expanding the Abraham Accords, to getting Saudi Arabia to the table as a country that will normalize relations with Israel, to expanding regional forums like the Negev Forum. Those are all still within reach, but none of them are possible until the war ends, till the hostages are home, till Hamas is removed from power.  Belle Yoeli:  Absolutely. And we look forward to talking more about the day after, in our next segment, in a segment coming up. Ambassador, you just got back from Israel. Can you tell us about your experience, the mood, what's the climate like in Israel? And any insights from your meetings and time that you think should be top of mind for us? Dan Shapiro:  I think what was top of mind for almost every Israeli I spoke to was the hostages. I spent time in the hostage square in Tel Aviv, spent time with Ruby, spent time with other hostage families, and everywhere you go as everybody who spin their nose, you see the signs, you hear the anxiety. And it's getting deeper because of the time that people are worried is slipping away for, especially for those who are still alive, but for all of those hostages to be returned to their families, so deep, deep anxiety about it, and candidly, some anger, I think we just heard a little bit of it toward a government that they're not sure shares that as the highest priority. There's a lot of exhaustion. People are tired of multiple rounds of reserve duty, hundreds of days. Families stressed by that as well the concern that this could drag on with the new operation well into next year. It's allowed to continue. It's a lot of worry about Israel's increased isolation, and of course, that's part of the subject. We'll discuss how countries who have been friends of Israel, whether in the region or in Europe or elsewhere, are responding in more and more negative ways, and Israel, and all Israelis, even in their personal lives, are feeling that pinch. But there's also some, I guess, expectant hope that President Trump, who is popular in Israel, of course, will use his influence and his regional standing, which is quite significant, to put these pieces together. Maybe we're seeing that happening this week. And of course, there's some expectant hope, or at least expectant mood, about an election next year, which will bring about some kind of political change in Israel. No one knows exactly what that will look like, but people are getting ready for that. So Israelis are relentlessly forward, looking even in the depths of some degree of anxiety and despair, and so I was able to feel those glimmers as well. Belle Yoeli:  And relentlessly resilient, absolutely resilient. And we know that inspires us. Moving back to the piece on diplomatic isolation and the main piece of our conversation, obviously, at AJC, we've been intensely focused on many of the aspects that are concerning us, in terms of unfair treatment of countries towards Israel, but unilateral recognition of Palestinian state is probably the most concerning issue that we've been dealing with this week, and obviously has gotten a lot of attention in the media. So from your perspective, what is this really all about? Obviously, this, this has been on the table for a while. It's not the first time that countries have threatened to do this, but I think it is the first time we're time we're seeing France and other major countries now pushing this forward in this moment. Is this all about political pressure on Israel? Dan Shapiro:  Well, first, I'll say that I think it's a mistake. I think it's an ill advised set of initiatives by France, by Canada, Australia, UK and others. It will change almost it will change nothing on the ground. And so to that sense, it's a purely rhetorical step that changes nothing, and probably does little, if anything, to advance toward the stated goal of some sort of resolution of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And in many ways, it may actually set it back in part because of the way it appears to and certainly many Israelis understand it too. And I'm sorry to say, many Arabs understand it to reward Hamas. Hamas is celebrating it as an achievement of October 7, and that October 7 will find its place in the pantheon of the Palestinian Liberation story that should never be allowed to happen. So doing it this way, doing it without conditioning it on the release of hostages, on the disarming and removal of Hamas from Gaza, is a mistake. And of course, it tells Israelis that their very legitimate concerns about obviously the hostages, but also that some future Palestinian state, wherever and whatever form it might take, could become a threat to them from other parts, from parts of the West Bank, as it was from Gaza on October 7. And you cannot get to that goal unless you're willing to engage the Israeli public on those concerns, very legitimate concerns, and address them in a very forthright way.  So I think it's a mistake. I'm sure, to some degree, others have made this observation. It is motivated by some of the domestic political pressures that these leaders feel from their different constituencies, maybe their left, left wing constituencies, some right wing constituencies, and some immigrant constituencies. And so maybe they're responding to that. And I think that's, you know, leaders deal with those types of things. I think sometimes they make bad decisions in dealing with those types of pressures. I think that's the case here, but I it's also the case. I think it's just fair to say that in the absence of any Israeli Government articulated viable day after, plan for Gaza, something we were urged Israel to work with us on all the time. I was serving in the Biden administration, and I think the Trump administration has as well, but it's remained blurry. What does what is that vision of the day after? Not only when does it start, but what does it look like afterwards? And is it something that Arab States and European states can buy into and get behind and and put their influence to work to get Hamas out and to do a rebuild that meets the needs of both Israelis and Palestinians. There hasn't been that. And so that could have been a way of satisfying some of those domestic pressures, but it wasn't really available. And so I think some of the leaders turn to this ill advised move instead. Belle Yoeli:  So perhaps catering to domestic political concerns and wanting to take some sort of moral high ground on keeping peace alive, but beyond that, no real, practical or helpful outcomes, aside from setting back the cause of peace? Dan Shapiro:  I think it has limited practical effects. Fact, I think it does tell Israelis that much of the world has not internalized their legitimate concerns, and that they will be, you know, cautious at best for this. Everybody knows that there are many Israelis who have been long standing supporters of some kind of two state resolution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And post October 7, they've, they don't still hold that position, or at least they say, if it can happen, it's going to take a long time, it's going to look very different. And I think that actually is some a real practical takeaway, that if we are going to talk about some future establishment of a Palestinian state and some two state arrangement, certainly separation between Israelis and Palestinians, so they don't try to live intermixed in a way that they govern each other. I think that is that is desirable, but it's not necessarily going to look like two state outcomes that were envisioned in the Oslo period, in the 90s and the 2000s it's going to look different. It's going to take longer. And so that is something that I think we have to make sure is understood as people raise this initiative, that their goal is not the goal of 1993 it's going to have to look different, and it's going to have to take longer. Belle Yoeli:  So as more and more countries have sort of joined this, this move that we find to be unhelpful, obviously, a concern that we all have who are engaged in this work is that we've heard response, perhaps, from the Israelis, that there could be potential annexation of the West Bank, and that leads to this sort of very, very, even more concerning scenario that all of the work that you were discussing before, around the Abraham Accords, could freeze, or, perhaps even worse, collapse. What's your analysis on that scenario? How concerned should we be based on everything that you know now and if not that scenario? What else should we be thinking about? Dan Shapiro:  We should be concerned. I was actually in Israel, when the UAE issued their announcement about four weeks ago that annexation in the West Wing could be a red line, and I talked to a very senior UAE official and tried to understand what that means, and they aren't, weren't prepared to or say precisely what it means. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to break off relations or end the Abraham Accords, but that they would have to respond, and there's a limited range of options for how one could respond, with moving ambassadors or limiting flights or reducing certain kinds of trade or other visits. Nothing good, nothing that would help propel forward the Abraham accords and that particular critical bilateral relationship in a way that we wanted to so I think there's risk. I think if the UAE would take that step, others would probably take similar steps. Egypt and Jordan have suggested there would be steps. So I think there's real risk there, and I think it's something that we should be concerned about, and we should counsel our Israeli friends not to go that route. There are other ways that they may respond. In fact, I think we've already seen the Trump administration, maybe as a proxy, make some kind of moves that try to balance the scales of these unilateral recognitions. But that particular one, with all of the weight that it carries about what how it limits options for future endpoints, I think would be very, very damaging. And I don't think I'm the only one. Just in the last hour and a half or so, President Trump, sitting in the Oval Office, said very publicly that he, I think you said, would not allow Netanyahu to do the Analyze annexation of the West Bank. I think previously, it was said by various people in the administration that it's really an Israeli decision, and that the United States is not going to tell them what to do. And that's perfectly fine as a public position, and maybe privately, you can say very clearly what you think is the right course, he's now said it very publicly. We'll see if he holds to that position. But he said it, and I think given the conversations he was having with Arab leaders earlier this week, given the meeting, he will have his fourth meeting. So it's obviously a very rich relationship with Prime Minister Netanyahu on Monday, I think it's clear what he believes is necessary to get to the end of this war and not leave us in a worse position for trying to get back on the road to his goals. His goals of expanding the Abraham accords his great achievement from the first term, getting Saudi Arabia to normalize relations, of course, getting hostages released and getting Arabs involved in the reconstruction of Gaza in a way that Gaza can never become the threat it was again on October 7, those are his goals. They'll be well served by the end of the war that I described earlier, and by avoiding this cycle that you're referencing. Belle Yoeli:  Putting aside the issue of unilateral recognition, I think we've seen in our work with our Israeli counterparts, sort of differences in the political establish. Around how important it is in thinking about the day after and seeing movement on the Palestinian issue. And we've seen from some that they perhaps make it out that it's not as important that the Palestinian having movement towards a political path. It's not necessarily a have to be front and center, while others seem to prioritize it. And I think in our work with Arab countries, it's very clear that there does have to be some tangible movement towards the political aspirations for the Palestinian for there to really be any future progress beyond the Abraham accords. What's your take? Dan Shapiro:  My take is that the Arab states have often had a kind of schizophrenic view about the Palestinian issue. It's not always been, maybe rarely been their highest priority. They've certainly had a lot of disagreements with and maybe negative assessments of Palestinian leaders, of course, Hamas, but even Palestinian Authority leaders. And so, you know, it's possible to ask the question, or it has been over time, you know, how high do they prioritize? It? Certainly those countries that stepped forward to join the Abraham accords said they were not going to let that issue prevent them from advancing their own interests by establishing these productive bilateral relations with Israel, having said that there's no question that Arab publics have been deeply, deeply affected by the war in Gaza, by the coverage they see they unfortunately, know very little about what happened on October 7, and they know a lot about Israeli strikes in Gaza, civilian casualties, humanitarian aid challenges, and so that affects public moods. Even in non democratic countries, leaders are attentive to the views of their publics, and so I think this is important to them. And every conversation that I took part in, and I know my colleagues in the Biden administration with Arab states about those day after arrangements that we wanted them to participate in, Arab security forces, trainers of Palestinian civil servants, reconstruction funding and so forth. They made very clear there were two things they were looking for. They were looking for a role for the Palestinian Authority, certainly with room to negotiate exactly what that role would be, but some foothold for the Palestinian Authority and improving and reforming Palestinian Authority, but to have them be connected to that day after arrangement in Gaza and a declared goal of some kind of Palestinian state in the future.  I think there was a lot of room in my experience, and I think it's probably still the case for flexibility on the timing, on the dimensions, on some of the characteristics of that outcome. And I think a lot of realism among some of these Arab leaders that we're not talking about tomorrow, and we're not talking about something that might have been imagined 20 or 30 years ago, but they still hold very clearly to those two positions as essentially conditions for their involvement in getting to getting this in. So I think we have to take it seriously. It sounds like President Trump heard that in his meeting with the Arab leaders on Tuesday. It sounds like he's taking it very seriously. Belle Yoeli:  I could ask many more questions, but I would get in trouble, and you've given us a lot to think about in a very short amount of time. Ambassador Shapiro, thank you so much for being with us. Dan Shapiro:  Thank you. Thank you everybody.  Manya Brachear Pashman: As you heard, Ambassador Shapiro served under President Obama. Now AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson speaks with Jason Greenblatt, who served under President Trump. But don't expect a counterpoint. Despite their political differences, these two men see eye to eye on quite a bit. Jason Isaacson: Jason first, thank you for the Abraham Accords. The work that you did changed the history of the Middle East. We are so full of admiration for the work of you and your team. Jared Kushner. Of course, President Trump, in changing the realities for Israel's relationship across the region and opening the door to the full integration of Israel across the region.  It's an unfinished work, but the work that you pioneered with the President, with Jared, with the whole team, has changed the perspective that Israel can now enjoy as it looks beyond the immediate borders, Jordan and Egypt, which has had relations with a quarter a century or more, to full integration in the region. And it's thanks to you that we actually are at this point today, even with all the challenges. So first, let me just begin this conversation by just thanking you for what you've done.  Jason Greenblatt: Thank you. Thank you, and Shana Tova to everybody, thank you for all that you do. Jason Isaacson: Thank you. So you were intimately involved in negotiations to reach normalization agreements between Israel and the Kingdom of Morocco, the Kingdom of Bahrain, of course, the United Arab Emirates. Can you take us behind the scenes of these negotiations? At what point during the first term of President Trump did this become a priority for the administration, and when did it seem that it might actually be a real possibility? Jason Greenblatt: So I have the benefit, of course, of looking backward, right? We didn't start out to create the Abraham Accords. We started out to create peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which, as Dan knows, and so many people here know, including you Jason, seems to be an impossible task. But I would say that if I follow the breadcrumbs, my first meeting with Yousef Al Otaiba was a lunch, where it was the first time I actually ever met an Emirati, the first time I understood the psychology of the Emiratis. And others. I realized that the world had changed tremendously.  Everything that you heard about anti-Israel wasn't part of the conversation. I'll go so far as to say, when I went to the Arab League Summit that took place in Jordan in March of 2017 where I met every foreign minister. And I'm not going to tell you that I loved many of those meetings, or 85% of the conversation, where it wasn't exactly excited about Israel and what Israel stood for. There were so many things in those conversations that were said that gave me hope.  So it was multiple years of being in the White House and constantly trying to work toward that. But I want to go backwards for a second, and you touched on this in your speech, there are many parents and grandparents of the Abraham Accords, and AJC is one of those parents or grandparents. There are many people who work behind the scenes, Israeli diplomats and so many others. And I'm sure the Kingdom of Morocco, where the architecture was built for something like the Abraham Accords, everybody wanted regional peace and talked about Middle East peace. But we were fortunate, unfortunately for the Palestinians who left the table, which was a big mistake, I think, on their part, we're very fortunate to take all of that energy and all of that hard work and through a unique president, President Trump, actually create that architecture.  On a sad note, I wouldn't say that when I left the White House, I thought I'd be sitting here thinking, you know, five years out, I thought there'd be lots of countries that would already have signed and all the trips that I take to the Middle East, I thought would be much. Now they're easy for me, but we're in a very, very different place right now. I don't think I ever would have envisioned that. Jason Isaacson: Thank you. The administration has talked a great deal about expanding the Abraham Accords, of course, and as have we. Indeed, at an AJC program that we had in Washington in February with Special Envoy Steven Witkoff, he talked publicly for the first time about Lebanon and Syria joining the Accords. Obviously, with both of those countries, their new political situation presents new possibilities.  However, the ongoing war in Gaza, as we've been discussing with Ambassador Shapiro, and Israel's actions, including most recently striking Hamas in Doha, have further isolated Israel in the region and made an expansion of the accords harder to envision. At least, that's the way it seems. Given the current situation in the Middle East. Do you think the Trump administration can be successful in trying to broker new agreements, or do the current politics render that impossible in the short term? How hopeful are you? Jason Greenblatt: So I remain hopeful. First of all, I think that President Trump is a unique president because he's extremely close to the Israeli side, and he's very close to the Arab side. And he happens to have grandchildren who are both, right. I think, despite this terrible time that we're facing, despite hostage families, I mean, the terrible things that they have to live through and their loved ones are living it through right now, I still have hope. There's no conversation that I have in the Arab world that still doesn't want to see how those Abraham Accords can be expanded. Dan, you mentioned the Arab media. It's true, the Arab world has completely lost it when it comes to Israel, they don't see what I see, what I'm sure all of you see.  I'm no fan of Al Jazeera, but I will say that there are newspapers that I write for, like Arab News. And when I leave the breakfast room in a hotel in Riyadh and I look at the headlines of, not Al Jazeera, but even Arab News, I would say, Wow, what these people are listening to and reading, what they must think of us. And we're seeing it now play out on the world stage. But despite all that, and I take my kids to the Middle East all the time, we have dear friends in all of those countries, including very high level people. I've gotten some great Shana Tovas from very high level people. They want the future that was created by the Abraham Accords. How we get there at this particular moment is a big question mark. Jason Isaacson: So we touched on this a little bit in the earlier conversation with Dan Shapiro:. Your team during the first Trump administration was able to defer an Israeli proposal to annex a portion of the West Bank, thanks to obviously, the oped written by Ambassador Al Otaiba, and the very clear position that that government took, that Israel basically had a choice, normalization with the UAE or annexation. Once again, there is discussion now in Israel about annexation. Now the President, as Ambassador Shapiro just said, made a very dramatic statement just a couple of hours ago. How do you see this playing out? Do you think that annexation is really off the table now? And if it were not off the table, would it prevent the continuation of the agreements that were reached in 2020 and the expansion of those agreements to a wider integration of Israel in the region? Jason Greenblatt: To answer that, I think for those of you who are in the room, who don't know me well, you should understand my answer is coming from somebody who is on the right of politics, both in Israel and here. In fact, some of my Palestinian friends would say that sometimes I was Bibi's mouthpiece. But I agree with President Trump and what he said earlier today that Dan had pointed out, I don't think this is the time. I don't think it's the place. And I was part of the team that wrote the paperwork that would have allowed Israel to . . . you use the word annexation. I'll say, apply Israeli sovereignty. You'll use the word West Bank, I'll use Judea, Samaria.  Whatever the label is, it really doesn't matter. I don't think this is the time to do it. I think Israel has so many challenges right now, militarily, hostages, there's a million things going on, and the world has turned against Israel. I don't agree with those that are pushing Bibi. I don't know if it's Bibi himself, but I hope that Bibi could figure out a way to get out of that political space that he's in. And I think President Trump is making the right call. Jason Isaacson: So, I was speaking with Emirati diplomats a couple of days ago, who were giving me the sense that Israel hasn't gotten the message that the Palestinian issue is really important to Arab leaders. And we talked about this with Ambassador Shapiro earlier, that it's not just a rhetorical position adopted by Arab leaders. It actually is the genuine view of these Arab governments. Is that your sense as well that there needs to be something on the Palestinian front in order to advance the Abraham Accords, beyond the countries that we've established five years ago? Jason Greenblatt: You know, when I listened to Dan speak, and I told him this after his remarks, I'm always reminded that even though we disagree around the edges on certain things, if you did a Venn diagram, there would be a lot of overlap. I agree with how he sees the world. But I want to take it even back to when I was in the White House.  There are many times people said, Oh, the Arabs don't care about the Palestinians. They don't care. We could just do whatever we want. It's not true. They may care more about their own countries, right? They all have their visions, and it's important to them to advance their own visions. The Palestinian cause may not have been as important, but there is no way that they were going to abandon the Palestinians back then, and I don't think the UAE or the Kingdom of Morocco or others having entered into the Abraham Accords, abandoned the Palestinians. I think that was the wrong way to look at it, but they are certainly not going to abandon the Palestinians now. And I think that how Dan described it, which is there has to be some sort of game plan going forward. Whether you want to call it a state, which, I don't like that word, but we can't continue to live like this. I'm a grandfather now of three. I don't want my grandchildren fighting this fight. I really don't. Is there a solution?  Okay, there's a lot of space between what I said and reality, and I recognize that, but it's incumbent on all of us to keep trying to figure out, is there that solution? And it's going to include the Palestinians. I just want to close my answer with one thing that might seem odd to everybody. I'm not prone to quoting Saeb Erekat, who I disagreed with, the late Saeb Erekat, who I disagreed with just about on everything, but he used to tell me, Jason, the answer isn't in the Koran, it's not in the Torah, it's not in the Christian Bible, and the Israelis and the Palestinians are not leaving the space. So let's figure out a solution that we could all live with. So that's how I see it. Jason Isaacson: Thank you for that. One last question. I also heard in another conversation with other em righty diplomats the other day that the conflict isn't between Arabs and Israelis or Arabs and Jews, it's between moderates and extremists, and that the UAE is on the side of the moderates, and Morocco is on the side of the moderates, and the Kingdom of Bahrain is on the side of the moderates, and Israel is on the side of the moderates. And that's what we have to keep in our minds.   But let me also ask you something that we've been saying for 30 years across the region, which is, if you believe in the Palestinian cause, believe in rights for the Palestinians, you will advance that cause by engaging Israel, not by isolating Israel. Is that also part of the argument that your administration used five years ago? Jason Greenblatt: 100%. I think, I mean, I kept pushing for it and eventually they did it, for the Israelis and the Arabs to engage directly. Yes, the US plays a role, and they could play a moderating role. They could play somewhat of a coercive role. Nobody's going to force the Israelis, or frankly, even the Palestinians, to do anything they don't want to do, but getting them in the room so there are no missed signals, no missed expectations, I think, is the key part of this solution. I'm still hopeful, just to go back to your prior question, that they could get the right people in the room and somebody like President Trump, together with Emirati diplomats, Moroccan diplomats and others. They could talk rationally, and sanely, and appropriately, and we'll get somewhere good. Jason Isaacson: Ok, look ahead. We just marked the fifth anniversary of the Abraham Accords. Will there be a 10th Anniversary of the Abraham Accords, and will it look the same that it is now? Jason Greenblatt: No, I think it's going to be better. Yes, I think there's going to be a 10th Anniversary. I think there will be challenges. But maybe the best way I could answer this is, when the, I'll call it, the beeper incident in Lebanon happened. Okay, quite, quite a feat. I was in a conference room at a client of mine in the Middle East. Most of the room was filled with Lebanese Arabs, Christians and Muslims and some Druze. And it was unusual for everybody's phone to buzz at once, because I'm usually following the Israeli and American news. They're following Arab news. All the phones buzz. So somebody stopped talking, and we all picked up our phone to look at it. And I'm looking at the headlines thinking, oh, boy, am I in the wrong room, right?  And after a minute or so of people kind of catching their breath, understanding what happened, two or three of them said, wow, Jason. Like, that's incredible. Like, you know, I wasn't in the White House anymore, but they also want a different future, right? They are sick and tired of Lebanon being a failed state. Their kids are like my kids, and they're just . . . they're everything that they're building is for a different future, and I see that time and time again. So to go back to the UAE diplomats comment, which I hear all the time as well. It really is a fight of moderates against extremists. The extremists are loud and they're very bad. We know that, but we are so much better. So working together, I think we're going to get to somewhere great. Jason Isaacson: Very good. Okay. Final question. You can applaud, it's okay. Thank you for that. Out of the Abraham Accords have grown some regional cooperation agreements. I too, you too, IMEC, the India, Middle East, Europe, Economic corridor. Do you see that also, as part of the future, the creation of these other regional agreements, perhaps bringing in Japan and Korea and and other parts of the world into kind of expanding the Abraham Accords? In ways that are beneficial to many countries and also, at the same time, deepening the notion of Israelis, Israel's integration in the region. Jason Greenblatt: 100% and I know I think AJC has been very active on the IMEC front. People used to say, Oh, this is not an economic peace. It isn't an economic peace, but nor is economics not a very important part of peace. So all of these agreements, I encourage you to keep working toward them, because they will be needed. In fact, one of the fights that I used to have with Saeb Erekat and President Abbas all the time is, I know you're not an economic issue, but let's say we manage to make peace. What's going to happen the next day? You need an economic plan. Let's work on the economic plan. So whether it's IMEC or something else, just keep working at it. Go, you know, ignore the bad noise. The bad noise is here for a little while, unfortunately, but there will be a day after, and those economic agreements are what's going to be the glue that propels it forward. Jason Isaacson: Jason Greenblatt, really an honor to be with you again. Thank you.  Manya Brachear Pashman: In our next episode of the series, we will explore more of the opportunities and challenges presented by the Abraham Accords and who might be the next country to sign the landmark peace agreement.  Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland Inspired Middle East: ID: 241884108; Composer: iCENTURY Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher