Amid Blame and Shame, Reclaiming Jewish Identity with Sarah Hurwitz

"To me, that ark is: engaging deeply with our traditions. It's reclaiming some of what we lost when we were assimilating and trying to fit in. We have thousands of years of text that have such wisdom about the human condition, about how to be a good person, and lead a worthy life . . . What we can really do is, we can be Jews. And to be a Jew has always been to be different." Sarah Hurwitz—former White House speechwriter and New York Times bestselling author of Here All Along—returns to People of the Pod to discuss her new book, As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us. Hurwitz reflects on why antisemitism remains, in her words, "the least mysterious phenomenon," and how Jews can reclaim pride, wisdom, and purpose through Jewish text, practice, and community. Drawing from her work as a hospital chaplain and her conversations with Jewish students on campus, she makes a powerful case for reconnecting with the depth and resilience of Jewish tradition. Key Resources: AJC's Translate Hate Glossary AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:     During the Obama administration, Sarah Hurwitz served as senior speech writer for President Barack Obama and chief speech writer for First Lady Michelle Obama. But after she left the White House, she did a little bit of soul searching, and in her mid 30s, reconnected with her Judaism. She wrote about it in a book titled Here All Along, and joined us at the time to talk about it. Sarah has returned with us this week to talk about the book that followed, titled As a Jew: Reclaiming Our Story from Those Who Blame, Shame, and Try to Erase Us.  Sarah, welcome back to People of the Pod. Sarah Hurwitz:  Thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be here. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So your title has a very powerful accusation. So tell us who is blaming, shaming and trying to erase us? Sarah Hurwitz:   Yeah. So, you know, it's funny. My first book, as you know, was this love letter toJudaism. This, this journey of discovery of Jewish tradition, and I loved it so much, and I wanted to share it. You know, as I was writing it, I was thinking, Oh, where has this been all my life. Kind of a lovely, almost rhetorical question. But after it came out, a few things kind of happened that made me actually ask that question more seriously. Like, Wait, why did I not see any of the 4000 years of Jewish wisdom growing up?  The first thing was, I trained to be a volunteer hospital chaplain, and you know, chaplaincy is multifaith, open to chaplains of all backgrounds. But you know, the training was kind of weirdly Christian. You know, we would talk about our ministry and our theology. And I was told that prayer is God, please heal so and so who's right here in front of me, and I'm just making this prayer up spontaneously, and they can hear me, and that's prayer. And everyone prays that way, I was told. I said, You know that that's not really a common form of Jewish prayer. But I was told, No, no, as long as you don't say Jesus, it is universal. That's interesting.  And then something else that happened is I visited a college campus probably a year before October 7, and I was talking to students there at the Hillel, talking to a bunch of Jewish students. And one of them asked me, What did you do to respond to antisemitism when you were in college? And I was so stunned, I didn't even understand the question at first. And then I said, I didn't, not once, never. Not a single time did I deal with antisemitism.  And the kids just looked kind of shocked, like they didn't believe me. And they started sharing stories of the antisemitism they were facing on campus. And I thought, uh oh, something's going on here. And then I really began kind of taking a deep dive into my identity.  Of like, wait, so why did I spend my whole life being like, oh, I'm just a cultural Jew. I knew nothing about Jewish culture. Which is a beautiful way to be Jewish, being a cultural Jew, but I knew nothing about history, language, anything like that. When I said I'm an ethnic Jew, but Jews are of every ethnicity, so that's nonsense.  Or I'd say social justice is my Judaism, but I didn't know anything about what Judaism said about social justice. Unlike these wonderful Jews who do know about social justice and spend their lives acting out Jewish social justice.  And so I took a deep dive into history, and what I discovered was 2000 years of antisemitism and anti-Judaism and 200 years of Jews in Western Europe in a very understandable attempt to escape that persecution, kind of erasing many of our traditions. And I think that was kind of my answer to, where has this been all my life? And also my answer to, why did I have such an apologetic Jewish identity for so much of my life? Manya Brachear Pashman:     In my introduction, I left off half the title of your first book because it was very long, but I am curious, kind of, when did you realize . . . well, let me give the full title of your book, it's Here All Along: Finding Meaning, Spirituality, and a Deeper Connection to Life--in Judaism (After Finally Choosing to Look There).  So I guess, how was that delayed connection to Judaism, can you elaborate a little bit more about how it was tied to these forces that you just talked about? Sarah Hurwitz:  Yeah, so, you know, something that I didn't really fully understand, I had intimations of this, but didn't really understand this, is that, you know, 2000 years ago, early Christianity very much defined itself against Judaism. There was actually a name for this, the Aversos Judeos tradition, which means against the Jews in Latin.  And you know, early Church Fathers very much were defining Christianity against Judaism, because back then, both of these traditions had originated from Judaism. And you know they parted ways at some point, and the Church Fathers were really trying to distinguish Christianity from Judaism, and to get people to stop kind of practicing both traditions. This tradition really continues with Judaism defined as unspiritual, legalistic, depraved, dead, spiritually superseded. A lot of very, very ugly tropes that kind of have common themes that say that Jews are diabolically powerful, so supernaturally powerful, you can't even believe it. They are also profoundly depraved, evil, bloodthirsty, perverse, and they're in a conspiracy to hurt you. So there may be very few of them, but man, they are working together to really do harm.  And you see these three themes kind of making their way through history, unfortunately, all the way basically, until the Holocaust. And I based a lot of my writing on the work of a number of really distinguished Christian scholars who make this argument. It's actually a pretty common argument among Christian scholars.  And, you know, in recent decades, the church has very much disavowed its historic anti-Judaism and has worked very hard to, you know, fight antisemitism in the church. But, you know, these things really did kind of continue on through the 20th century. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So you do describe in your book moments when you got oddly defensive about your Judaism, or perhaps a bit revisionist about Jewish history and the origin of Jewish traditions, or the reason why they exist now in modern day. Can you elaborate on some of those moments for our listeners and explain how you've self-corrected thatdefense? Sarah Hurwitz:  You know, I think a lot of it took the form of, oh, I'm Jewish, but not that Jewish. It was just sort of this immediate, but I'm not one of those Jews. You know, those really Jewish Jews. Well, I'm sorry, would it be a problem if I were? What if social justice wasn't my Judaism, but Judaism was my Judaism? Would that be okay? You know, just beginning to notice, like, Why am I always kind of pushing it away, claiming that I'm not too Jewish? That's a very strange way to announce someone's identity. I think, you know, Dara Horn has actually a really, quite an amazing essay called The Cool Kids, and she talks about these two different types of antisemitism. And one is this kind of eliminationist antisemitism which says the Jews are bad, there's nothing they can do to be good. We must kill them. And you know, that is the Holocaust, pogroms. We learn about that kind of antisemitism in school. But there's another kind of antisemitism, which is conversionist, which says, yes, the Jews are bad, but there is something they can do to be okay and saved. And that is, they can disavow whatever we, the majority, find disgusting about Jewish civilization.  So you know, back in the day, it was, reject Jewish religion and convert to Christianity, and you'll be saved, maybe. For some amount of time, possibly. In my parents and grandparents generation, it was, you know, reject your last name, get a nose job. Stop being so "Jewy", be a little bit more "waspy," and then maybe we'll let you into our club. Then maybe we'll accept you.  And today, what you see is you have to reject your ancestral homeland, you know, reject Israel, and then you'll be okay. And, you know, I visited 27 college campuses, and I kind of saw how this sometimes takes on the format of almost like a Christian conversion narrative, where it goes something like, you know, growing up, my rabbi and my parents told me Israel was perfect and amazing and a utopia. And then I got to college, and I realized that actually it's a colonialist, Nazi, racist society, and I had an epiphany. I saw the light, and I took anti-Zionism and anti-colonialism into my heart, and now I'm saved. Now I'm a good Jew. And their classmates are like, now you're a good Jew.  And as Dara Horn puts it, this kind of antisemitism involves the weaponization of shame. It involves really trying to convince Jews that there is something fundamentally shameful about some aspect of themselves, their identity, their tradition. And today, that thing is Israel. This idea that there's something fundamentally . . . it's like the original sin of the world. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And you also talk about the tradition of circumcision, and how that came up, and you found yourself explaining this to someone. Can you elaborate on that for our listeners? Which I thought was really interesting.  Sarah Hurwitz:  This was during an encounter with a patient. I was doing a chaplaincy shift, and  usually I don't tell my patients my religious background, I'm very neutral, unless they're Jewish, in which case, I do tell them I'm Jewish. But, you know, I was finishing up a conversation with this very lovely lady. And she was very curious about my background. And so I told her, you know, I'm Jewish. And her eyes kind of lit up, and she said, Oh, you know, many of my neighbors are Jewish. I've actually been to two brisses in the past month.  And she just, you know, and she was so lovely, like, she actually seemed to be just really happy to be included in this tradition of her neighbors. And I got weirdly defensive, and was like, Oh, well, you know, just so, you know, medical professionals, they say whether you circumcise or don't circumcise, it's really, it's equally safe either way. And you know, we often, you know, when we do brisses, they're often done by a medical provider.  And I'm going on and on and like, this woman did not say the slightest negative thing about this tradition, but suddenly I am defensive. Suddenly it's like, Huh, interesting. You know, I think that it was an illustration to me of the way that we can sometimes really imbibe all of the kind of negative views about Jews and Jewish traditions that are around us, and become defensive, and sometimes we don't even realize that they're there. It's almost like they're the air that we breathe. Manya Brachear Pashman:     But let me challenge that and push back a little bit. I mean, is it okay to not agree with some of the traditions of the Jewish faith and be open about your disagreement with that? I certainly know a lot of Christians who don't like things that emerge from their tradition or from their community. Is that okay? Or is it not when Judaism is threatened? Sarah Hurwitz:  So I actually do think that's okay. You know, I have no problem with that, but I think the problem in this situation was that I have no problem with circumcision, but I'm suddenly getting defensive and trying to convince this woman that it's not weird. And I'm thinking, why am I doing this? It was very interesting to me that I felt so suddenly defensive and anxious. You know, it was very surprising to me. Manya Brachear Pashman:     And similarly, it's okay to criticize Israeli policy too, right? I mean, it's totally acceptable.  Sarah Hurwitz:  Absolutely. This is the thing that I'm so confused about. Where people are saying, well, you know, you're saying that it's not okay to criticize Israel. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Have you been to Israel? It's like the national pastime there to criticize the government. I criticize the Israeli government all the time, as do millions of American Jews.  This idea that this is somehow… that we're somehow reacting to criticism of Israel, that's ridiculous. I think what we're reacting to is not criticism of Israel, but it's something else. You know, when you have students on a college campus saying from water to water, Palestine should be Arab, or Israelis are Nazis. I just, with all due respect, I don't see that as criticism. Nor would I see it as criticism if, God forbid, a Jewish student ever said from water to water, Israel should be Jewish, or, Palestinians are terrorists. That is hateful, disgusting, racist, eliminationist language. And if I ever heard a Jewish student say that, I mean, let me tell you, I would have quite a talking to with that kid.  So that's not criticism. Criticism is, I am vehemently opposed and abhor, this policy, this ideology, this action, for these reasons. That's criticism. And I think you can use real strong language to do that kind of criticism. But there's a difference between a criticism and slurs and baseless accusations. And I think we need to be just clear about that. Manya Brachear Pashman:     All right, so you just use the term from water to water instead of from river to sea. Was that on purpose? Sarah Hurwitz:  Not necessarily. It's just a clearer illustration of what I think from the river to the sea really means, you know, I think  that is the Arabic that is used. Infrom the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free. It's like, you can kind of make an argument that this is about Palestinian Liberation. And okay, fair enough. But I think when you get the from water to water, it shall be Arab, that's when I think there's less of an argument that it's about freedom, and it seems a little bit more eliminationist to me. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Interesting. I've not heard that before. But I like that. So you call antisemitism the least mysterious phenomenon. Can you please explain what you mean by that? Sarah Hurwitz:  Yeah, you know, I think, like a lot of young people, my antisemitism education was mainly just Holocaust education. And I kind of walked away thinking like, huh, how wild that the civilized world just lost its mind in the mid-20th century and started killing Jews. That's so shocking and disturbing, you know, why is that? And the answer was kind of like, well, you know, the Germans lost World War I. They blamed the Jews. There was a depression. They blamed the Jews.  And when you ask why the Jews, it's like, well, because of prejudice and scapegoating. I'm like, Okay, right. But again, why the Jews? Prejudice and scapegoating, that's the answer. It's like, well, actually, the answer really is because of 2000 years of Christian anti-Judaism that preceded that. It wasn't mysterious why the Jews were targeted.  This was a 2000-year neural groove that had been worn into the Western world psyche. And this is not my argument. This is the argument of countless Christian scholars whose brilliant work I cite. And so I think that the unfortunate thing about some forms of Holocaust education is that it leaves you with the impression that, oh, this is so mysterious, it's just kind of eternal and kind of comes out of nowhere. Or even worse, you might even think maybe we did something to deserve this. But it's not mysterious. I can show you its path through history.  And I think it's very important that Jews understand this history. And look, I think this is very hard to teach in an average American public school. Because, you know, we live in a country where, you know, saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas is very upsetting for some people. They feel very threatened and triggered by that.  So for a teacher to say, like, Okay, kids today we're going to learn about how 2000 years of Christian anti-Judaism paved the way for the Holocaust . . . I don't think that's going to go well. Even if many mainstream Christian scholars would agree that that's true, this is a challenge that we face. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So you have continued, as you said, to visit college campuses where antisemitism has been an issue since October 7, more of an issue than it even was beforehand. And yet, when you were at Harvard and Harvard Law, you've said you could have walked through Harvard Yard wrapped in an Israeli flag and no one would have said a word or reacted negatively. So what has changed, and does it signal a more general shift on campuses of kind of uncensored, unbridled speech?  In other words, if black students support black lives matter, or gay students are marching for pride, do you feel like there's a sense that students who disagree with that from either the right or the left, have kind of claimed a license to criticize that too? Sarah Hurwitz:  No. I try to explain to college students when they say, Well, okay, my campus isn't that bad, you know, I can wear my Jewish star, and I won't get, you know, harassed or ostracized. And I say, like, okay, great, if it's not that bad, I'll just wear my Israel t-shirt and we'll see how it goes. They're like, No.  And then I have to go through this long litany of like, okay, if your black classmate said to you, well, this campus isn't so bad for black students, but I can't wear my Black Lives Matter t-shirt or else I'll be harassed and ostracized. I hope you would say that's not okay, that's racism, pretty clear. Or if your queer classmate said, Well, this campus is pretty good for queer people, but I can't wear my pride t-shirt, I hope you would say, That's not pretty good. That's homophobia.  You know, when the majority feels entitled to decide how the minority can embody and express their identity, I think we have a really serious problem. And  sometimes the kids will push back on me. Well, no, no, but the problem isn't being Jewish. It's Israel. I'm like, okay, but if your Chinese American classmate wore a t-shirt that said China, even if all your classmates knew that the Chinese government had been interning a million Muslim Uighurs in camps and subjecting them to horrific human rights violations, would they harass and ostracize her?  And they're like, Well, probably not. Right, because they would assume that she has a relationship to China that maybe involves having heritage there, or maybe she studied abroad there, or maybe she's studying Chinese, maybe she has family there. I think they would assume that she has some connection to the country that doesn't involve agreeing with the policies of the Chinese government, and Jewish students on campus really aren't afforded that courtesy.  And I'll tell you, most of the Jewish students I spoke with on campus, they, like me, are extremely critical of this current Israeli government. Extremely, extremely critical. They have all sorts of criticisms about what's happening in Gaza, of the occupation.  You know, their views are quite nuanced and complex, but there is no room given for that. You know, I think on some college campuses, Israel has been put into the same bucket as the KKK and the Nazi party. So I can't say to you, look, you know, I'm a Nazi, but I'm a liberal Nazi. Or, oh, you know, I'm in the KKK, but I'm not racist. It's like, come on, right?  These are vile entities with which no connection is acceptable, period. And I think once Israel ceases to be a country and instead becomes the representation of all evil in the world, there's really no relationship that you can have with it that's acceptable. And I think that is a pretty devastating place for it to be today.  And I'll tell you, I think it's a really challenging moment right now where I, like a lot of American Jews, I'm a Zionist. I believe that Jews have a right to a safe and secure home state in their ancestral homeland. I believe we have the right to national independence and self determination, like Japanese people have in Japan and Latvians have in Latvia, and on and on. And you know, we've run that experiment of Jewish powerlessness for 2000 years, and it didn't go well. Even as late as the 20th century. It wasn't just that two thirds of Jews in Europe got wiped out because of the Holocaust.  It's that nearly a million Jews who lived in Arab lands had to flee persecution, most of them to Israel. It's that 2 million Russian Jews had to flee persecution, half of them to Israel. It's that 10s of 1000s of Ethiopian Jews, I can go on and on. So we know, we've run that experiment of Jewish statelessness, and it doesn't go well.  And at the same time, we are looking at this current Israeli government, and we are appalled. We're appalled by the ideology, we're appalled by many of the policies. And you know, for me as an American, this feels very familiar, because I love this country. I'm a proud, patriotic American, and I happen to very much disagree with the current president. I happen to be very much appalled by the current president's policies and ideology. And so, I think many people are able to hold that, but somehow it's harder with Israel, because of what is in the air right now. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So, really you're saying that antisemitism has distorted history. Distorted people's understanding of Israel's history, their understanding of modern Israel's rebirth and existence. It spawned anti-Zionism. Correct?  Sarah Hurwitz:   Yes. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Did you encounter that during your time in the Obama administration? Do you see it now, in hindsight or or is it a more recent emergence? Sarah Hurwitz:   I think this is more recent. I mean, you know, probably in some spaces it was, you know, I was in the administration from 2009 to 2017. I never once saw any kind of anti-Zionism or antisemitism. I mean, it was one of the best places to be a proud, passionate Jew. I knew my colleagues could not have been more supportive of my Jewish exploration. They were so proud when I wrote my first book.  So I never saw any of this ever, once. And I think, you know, I think what is so confusing about this is that we often think about antisemitism as a kind of personal prejudice, like, oh, you know, Jews are fill in the blank, nasty thing. They are dirty, cheap, crass. I don't want my daughter to marry one. I don't want one in my country club.  You don't really see that kind of antisemitism in the circles where I travel anymore. What you see instead is more of political antisemitism, which is antisemitism as a kind of conspiracy theory that says that we, the majority, are engaged in a grand moral project, and the only thing stopping us are these Jews. We the majority are Christianizing the Roman Empire.  The only thing stopping us, these Jews who won't convert. We the majority are bringing about the brotherhood of man, the great communist revolution. The only thing stopping us, these capitalist Jews. We the Germans, are bringing about the great, racially pure Aryan fatherland. The only thing stopping us – these race-polluting Jews.  And today in America, you see it on the right and the left. On the right, it's, you know, we white Christian Americans are bringing back white Christian civilization to America. And the only thing stopping us are these Jews who are importing black and brown immigrants to replace white people. That is the extremely racist and antisemitic theory known as the Great Replacement theory. It is an ugly, disgusting lie.  On the left you have, you know, we this very moral group of people. we are bringing about the revolution of anti-colonialism, anti-Zionism. And the only thing stopping us are these colonialist Zionists, which is a polite way of saying Jews. And so, you know, I think it's very important to understand, as Yossi Klein Halevi, the journalist, puts it, you know, what you see again and again is whatever is the worst thing in a society, that is what the Jews are deemed to be. Whatever is the worst thing among a particular population, that is what the Jews are deemed to be. And I think we're kind of seeing that on both the right and the left today. Manya Brachear Pashman:     If antisemitism defines so much, or has defined so much of Jewish identity, how do we reclaim that? How have you reclaimed that? And how have you found joy in your Jewish identity, especially after doing this book and immersing yourself and all of this extremely depressing perspective? Sarah Hurwitz:   I hear this kind of line among many Jews that breaks my heart. It's this sort of self-flagellation, of like, if we just had the right PR campaign, if we just had the right tweet, then we would fight antisemitism. It's our fault, we're doing such a bad job fighting antisemitism. And, you know, I love the ambition there. I think that is so sweet.  But there are 16 million of us in the whole world. That's with an M, million, like the size of like, the fifth largest city in China. We are a Chinese city. There are billions of people who don't really love us out there. And the idea that we, this tiny group of people, is going to somehow change the minds of billions of people. I really respect the ambition, but I think that's a tough one.  I think it's sort of like trying to bail out a tsunami with buckets. You know, if enough of us do it, I'm sure we can make a difference. And I have such respect for the people who are doing that work. I think it's very important. But I also would just suggest that maybe we should put a little more of our energy into building an ark to weather the storm.  And you know, to me, that ark is, engaging deeply with our traditions. It's reclaiming, I think, some of what we lost when we were assimilating and trying to fit in. You know, we have thousands of years of text that have such wisdom about the human condition, about how to be a good person and lead a worthy life and find profound spiritual connection. We have just so many beautiful traditions. And so I think that what we can really do is, we can be Jews. And to be a Jew has always been to be different.  That was kind of our value proposition thousands of years ago when we came along and said, hey guys, monotheism. Totally different way of thinking. We said, hey, every human being is created in the image of God, which is an idea that every human being is infinitely worthy. Which, again, this is the idea that underlies things like liberalism, democracy, human rights. These are really Earth-shatteringly different counter cultural ideas, and we have so many more of those that I still think the world needs today.  So I think that rather than just being anti-anti-semites, that we can be proud Jews instead, and we can really focus on becoming more learned, more vibrant members of our communities, you know, engaging in more of our traditions and our rituals.  I also think, you know, Dara Horn has been doing a lot of great work about educating kids about Jewish civilization. Rather than having young people only know about the Jews via the Holocaust, she really wants to teach young people about Jewish civilization, ideas, and people. I think that is a very, very powerful and very helpful idea. Manya Brachear Pashman:     So how are you doing this? How do you spend each week? How do you reclaim some of these traditions and joy? Sarah Hurwitz:    For me, it's studying. That's really how I engage, you know, I have various chavrutas or I study Jewish texts. I love reading Jewish books, and I love participating in the Jewish community. You know, I love engaging with various Jewish organizations, you know, serving on various committees, and just trying to be part of this project of reclaiming Judaism, of making it more accessible to more Jews. This is what I love doing, and I'll be starting in January. I'm actually going to be starting a rabbinic program at the Hartman Institute. It's a part time program.  And I'm not not planning to be a congregational rabbi, but I do want to keep writing books, and I am really grateful for this opportunity to get a much deeper, more thorough Jewish education than the one I've kind of given to myself, and, you know, kind of cobbled together. I think this is going to be a really extraordinary opportunity. So I'm very excited about that.  Manya Brachear Pashman:     Oh, wow. Well, congratulations. I look forward to welcoming you back to the podcast and calling you Rabbi.  Sarah Hurwitz: Thank you. Manya Brachear Pashman:     Thank you so much for joining us, Sarah. Sarah Hurwitz:  Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.   

How did the Israeli economy react to the war against Hamas?  Hear from a major player on the ground – Dr. Eugene Kandel, former economic adviser and Chairman of the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange, discusses Israel's financial resilience after the war against Hamas. Having made aliyah from the Soviet Union in 1977 with his family, Dr. Kandel covers the stock market rebound, missed economic opportunities with Jordan and Egypt, and the success of the Abraham Accords.  *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Take Action: Elected Leaders: Demand Hamas Release the Hostages  Key Resources: AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:   Professor Eugene Kandel served as economic adviser to the Prime Minister of Israel from 2009 to 2015, and with Ron Sor is a co-founder of Israel's Strategic Futures Institute. He is also chairman of the Tel Aviv stock exchange, the only public stock exchange in Israel, known locally as the Bursa. He is with us now to talk about the impact of Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza on Israel's economy, the potential and impact so far of the Abraham Accords, and how history could one day view October 7 as a turning point for Israel's democracy.  Dr. Kandel, welcome to People of the Pod. Eugene Kandel:   Thank you. Thank you for having me.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   Before we begin, your family came to Israel in 1977. Can you share your family's Aliyah story? Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, when I was 14, my family was living very comfortably in the Soviet Union. My father was a quite known writer, playwright, a script writer. And around him was a group of Jewish people of culture that were quite known in their domains, mostly Jewish. And so at some point in 67 he sort of had this vision and started studying Hebrew. But 1970 and then by '73 when I was 14 years old, he came to me and said, Look, your mom and I decided to immigrate to Israel. What do you think about it, and I said, I don't know what I think about it. Okay, you know, if we want to immigrate, let's immigrate. I never felt too much belonging there. So unfortunately, Soviet authorities had other ideas about that. So we spent four years as refuseniks. My father, together with Benjamin Fine, were the editors of the underground publication called Tarbut. And for people who did not live there, they put their names on it. So this was, these were typewritten copies of Jewish culture monthly. And there were two names on it. You could go to jail for this. My father was always pretty brave man for his petite size, because during the Second World War, he was very, very hungry, to say the least. So he didn't really grow very much. But he's very big inside.  And so the following four years were pretty tough on them, because he couldn't work anywhere. Just like in McCarty years in this country, people would give work to their friends and then publish it under their own name. That's what he did for his friends, and they would share the money with him, or give him most of the money. There were very, very brave people. And then, you know, there was an incident where they wanted to send a message to my father to be a little less publicly outspoken. And so two KGB agents beat me up.  And that started a whole interesting set of events, because there was an organization in Chicago called Chicago Action for Soviet Jewry. Pamela Cohen. And I actually met Pamela when I was studying at the University of Chicago. And thanked her. So they took upon themselves to harass Soviet cinema and theater and culture officials. And so they were so successful that at some point, the writers league from Hollywood said that nobody will go to Moscow Film Festival unless they release us because they do not want to associate with people who beat up children. I wasn't a child, I was 17 years old, but still. And that sort of helped. At least, that's how we think about it.  So it's worthwhile being beaten up once in a while, because if it lets you out, I would take it another time. And then we came to Israel in a very interesting time. We came to Israel four hours after Anwar Sadat left. So we came to a different Israel. On the brink of a peace agreement with Egypt. And so that was it.  We came to Mevaseret Zion, which was an absorption center. A small absorption center. Today I actually live probably 500 yards from where we stayed. Sort of full circle.  And today, it's a significant, it's about 25,000 people town. And that's the story, you know, in the middle, in between then and now, I served in the military, did two degrees at Hebrew University, did two degrees at the University of Chicago, served as professor at the University of Rochester, and then for 28 years, served as professor of economics and finance at the Hebrew University. So I keep doing these circles to places where I started. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You say you arrived four hours after Sadat's visit to Israel on the brink of a peace agreement with Egypt. Did that peace agreement live up to expectations? Eugene Kandel:   Well, it depends what are your expectations. If your expectation will continue in the war, it definitely did, because, you know, for the last, you know, whatever, 48 years, we didn't have any military activity between Israel and Egypt. And we even have security collaboration to some extent. But if you're thinking about real peace, that would translate into people to people peace, business to business peace, it did not generate that at all. Because there was a very, very strong opposition on the street level and on the intellectuals level.  It actually started to break a little bit, because today you can find analysts on Egyptian television that are saying that we are, we are stupid because we don't collaborate with Israel. It is allowed today, It's allowed to be said in, you know, 20-30, years [ago], that person would have been ostracized and would never be allowed to speak.  So there is some progress, but unfortunately, it's a huge loss for the Egyptian economy. For Israeli economy, it is probably also a loss, but Israeli economy has a lot of alternatives in other countries. But Egyptians don't seem to be able to implement all the things that Israelis implemented a long time ago. You know, whether it's water technologies, whether it's energy technologies. Lots of lots of stuff, and it's really, really unfortunate that we could have helped Egyptian people, the same people who rejected any relations with us. And that's a pity. Manya Brachear Pashman:   The next peace agreement that came was with Jordan in 1994, quite some time later. Did that peace agreement live up to expectations, and where were you in 1994? Eugene Kandel:   1994, I was a professor at the University of Rochester, so I wasn't involved at all. But again, it was a very, very similar story. It was the peace that was sort of forced from above. It was clearly imposed on the people despite their objections, and you saw demonstrations, and you still see. But it was clear to the leadership of Jordan that Israel is, in their case, is absolutely essential for the survival of the Hashemite Dynasty. In the end the Israeli intelligence saved that dynasty, many, many times.  But again, it wasn't translated into anything economic, almost anything economic, until in the early 2000s there were some plants in Jordan by Israeli businessmen that were providing jobs, etc. But I was privileged to be the first to go to Jordan together with American officials and negotiate the beginning of the gas agreement.  We were selling gas to Jordan, because Jordan was basically going bankrupt because of the high energy costs. Jordan doesn't have its own energy, apart from oil shale. Sorry, shale oil. And for some reason they weren't able to develop that. But Israeli gas that we are selling to them as a result of what we started in 2012 I believe. Actually very important for the Jordanian economy. And if we can continue that, then maybe connect our electrical grid, which is now in the works, between the water-energy system.  And now maybe there is a possibility to connect the Syrian grid. If we have an agreement with Syria, it will help tremendously these countries to get economic development much faster. And it will help Israel as well, to balance its energy needs and to maybe get energy, provide energy, you know, get electricity, provide gas. You know, there's all these things where we can do a lot of things together. If there is a will on the other side. There's definitely will on the Israeli side. Manya Brachear Pashman:   In addition to gas, there's also water desalination agreements, as well, right? Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, there was a Red to Dead project, which was to pump the water all the way from the Red Sea along the Arava Valley. And then there is a 400 meter, 500 meter drop. And so to generate electricity through that desalinate that water that you pump, and then send that water to Egypt, send the electricity that was generated and not needed to Israel and then dump this salt stuff into the Dead Sea. Frankly, I don't know where this project is. Nobody talks about it for the last seven, eight years. I haven't heard.  Now there are different projects where you would get energy generated in Jordan and sold to Israel in Eilat, for example, because it's difficult for us to bring electricity all the way South. And so if the Jordanians have large fields of photovoltaic energy they can sell, they can satisfy the needs of a lot, and then in return, we can desalinate water and send it to them. So there's all kinds of projects that are being discussed. Manya Brachear Pashman:   But Israel does provide water to Jordan, correct? Eugene Kandel:   There are two agreements. One agreement, according to our peace agreement, we are supposed to provide them with a certain amount of water. I don't remember the exact amount. But that's not enough, and so we also sell them water. So think about it. There is a sweet water reservoir called Tiberius, Kinneret, in the north, and we sending water from there into two directions according to the agreement. We're sending it to Amman, pumping it up to the mountains, and then we're sending it throughout the Jordan Valley, all the way along the Jordan River, to the Jordanian side. So it's quite striking when I used to go between Jerusalem and Amman, it's actually an hour and a half drive. That's it. You go down, you go up, and you're there.  And so when you're passing the Israeli side, you see the plantations of date palms that are irrigated with drip irrigation. So very, very economically, using the brackish salt water that is pumped out of the ground there. You cross two miles further, you see banana plantations that are flood irrigated at 50-centigrade weather, and the water that comes from them comes on an open canal. So basically, 50% of the water that we send this way evaporates. Growing bananas in that climate and using so much water, it's probably, if you take into account the true cost of water, it's probably money losing proposition, but they're getting the water. The people that are the settlements on that Bank of Jordan River, are getting it for free. They don't care. And if somebody would just internalize that, and instead of sending the water down in an open canal, would send the whole water up to Amman, where there is a shortage of water, enormous shortage of water. And then you would take the gravity and use that water to generate electricity, to clean that water, the sewage, clean it and drip irrigate plantations, everybody would make enormous amounts of money. Literally enormous amounts of money. And everybody's lives would be better, okay? And I'm not talking about Israelis. It's within Jordan. And you can't say that there's no technology for that, because the technology is two miles away. You can see it.  And it just puzzles me. Why wouldn't that be done by some entrepreneurs, Jordanian entrepreneurs. We could really help with that. We could even help by buying the water from them back. The water that we give them, we can buy it back. Because in Israel, the water is very expensive. So we could finance that whole thing just by sending the water back, but that would be probably politically unacceptable, I don't know. But it's really, really . . . for an economist, it's just a sad story. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Missed opportunities. Well, let's go back. I introduced you as the chair of the Tel Aviv stock exchange, the Bursa. And I am curious. Let's talk about the economy. Does Israel treat its stock market the same way we do? In other words, are there opening and closing bells at the beginning and end of every day? How does the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange work compared to the United States? Eugene Kandel:   Well, we do have the opening bell, but it's usually reserved for some events. We don't have the events every day. Usually, if there's a new listing, or there's somebody celebrating, like, 20 years of listing, we have all kinds. Recently, we had Mr. Bill Ackman came and gave a speech and opened the trading together with us.  There are events around Jeffries Conference. But it's much more, you know, ceremony, I mean, it's not really connected to anything. Trading starts whether you press the button or don't. But Israeli stock exchange is unique in the following sense: it is an open limit book. What means that there is, you know, buyers meet sellers directly, and it works like that, not only in stocks, which is similar to what it is everywhere, but it's also in bonds, government bonds, corporate bonds, and in derivatives.  So in that sense, we do have our ceremonies, but the interesting thing is, what is happening with the exchange in the last two years. Accidentally, I joined two years ago as the chairman, and over the last two years, the stock exchange, the indices of Israeli Stock Exchange were the best performing out of all developed countries, by far. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Did that have something to do with the war? Eugene Kandel:   Well, it should have been, you know, in the opposite direction, but, the war is, not this length of war, not this intensity of war . . . but if you look back over at least 25 years, the Israeli economy responds very robustly to military conflict. Usually they're much shorter. If you look at even quarterly returns of the stock exchange, you would not know that there was a war in the middle, definitely not annual. If you look over the last 25 years, and you look at this stock, annual returns of the indices, you would not know that there was anything wrong, apart from our 2003 crisis, and Corona. Even the great financial crisis, you would not see it. I mean it was basically past us, because we didn't have a financial crisis in Israel. We had repercussions from, you know, the rest of the world's financial crisis, but we didn't get our own. And so we do have resilience built in, because we're just so used to it. However, having said that, it's the first time that we have such a long and intensive war on seven, whatever fronts. So it is quite surprising that just like any other time, it took about three months for the stock market to rebound after October 8. It was a big question whether to open the market on October 8. We struggled with it, and we decided that we do not want to give anybody the right to disrupt the Israeli economy.  I mean, it was a really tough decision, because there was certain people were saying, Well, how can you do that? It's a national tragedy. And of course, it was a national tragedy. But closing the market would have meant two things.  First of all, it would have shown the world that our economy can be interrupted. It would have given the benefit to those people that did these atrocities, that they managed to do more damage than they already did. And we didn't want to do that. And it didn't collapse. It went down, of course, but it rebounded within less than three months. By the end of that year, it was back on the same level. And then it did this comeback, which was quite phenomenal. And it's an interesting question, how come? Because during that time, we had some cases where Israel was boycotted by investors, very few, by the way, but we also saw many, many new investors coming in.  You could look at the war from the negative side. Of course, huge costs. But with all that, it was about 10% of annual GDP, because we are, you know, we're a big economy, and we borrowed that very easily because we had a very strong macro position before that. So we now 76% debt to GDP ratio. It's much lower than majority of developed countries. But we still had to borrow that. It was a lot of money, and then the defense budget is going to go up. So there is this cost.  But vis a vis that, A, Israeli technology has been proven to be unmatched, apart from maybe us technology in certain cases, but in some cases, even there, we have something to share. And so we have huge amounts of back orders for our defense industries. During the war, and they were going up when some of the countries that are making these purchases were criticizing us. They were learning from what we did, and buying, buying our equipment and software, etc.  And the second thing, we removed the huge security threat. If you look before October 7, we were quite concerned about 150,000 missiles, some of them precise missiles in Hezbollah's hands, an uninterrupted path from Iran through Syria to Hezbollah, constantly replenishing. We would bomb them sometimes in Syria, but we didn't catch all of them. We had Hamas, we had Hezbollah, we had Syrians, we had Iranians. We had, you know, not, you know, Iraqi militia. So, Hezbollah doesn't exist. Well, it exists, but it's nowhere near where it where was at. And the Lebanese Government is seriously attempting to disarm it. Syria, we all know what happened in Syria. We didn't lift a finger to do that. But indirectly, from what happened in Hezbollah, the rebels in Syria became emboldened and did what they did. We know what happened with Hamas. We know what happened with Iran. Okay, Iran, even Europeans reimposed the sanctions. So that's the side effect.  So if you look at the Israeli geopolitical and security situation, it's much, much better. And in that situation, once the war is over and the hostages are returned, and hopefully, we will not let this happen again, ever, to work hard so we remember that and not become complacent. It's an enormous, enormous boost to Israeli economy, because this security premium was quite big.  So that is on the positive side, and if we play smart, and we play strategically, and we regain sort of good relations with some of the countries which are currently very critical of us, and somehow make them immune to this anti Israeli antisemitism propaganda, we can really get going. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You mentioned investors. There were more investors after the war. Where were those investors coming from, internally or from other countries?  Eugene Kandel:   It's interesting that you asked this question, because in 2020, early 2024 a lot of Israeli institutions and individuals moved to S&P 500, and they got really hammered. Twice. Because A, S&P 500 was lagging behind the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange. So there was some other players coming in, because otherwise, when you move money, usually, you should see a drop, but you saw an increase. That meant that there are others came in. But the more interesting thing is that shekel was very weak when they bought dollars, and now shekel is about 15% stronger, so they lost 15% just on the exchange rate. And so a lot of money that went to S&P came back in the last six, eight months. So the internal money came back.  But on top of internal money, we looked at the behavior of foreign investors right after October 7. They didn't flee the country. Some of them sold stocks, bought bonds. And then so Israeli institutions made money on that, because Israeli institutions bought stocks from them at about 10%, 15% discount, and then when it rebounded, they made money. But that money didn't leave, it stayed in Israel, and it was very costly to repatriate it, because the shekel was very weak. And so buying dollars back was expensive. And the money slowly went into stocks. And then people made quite a lot of money on this. Manya Brachear Pashman:   The last topic I want to cover with you is external relations. You mentioned Syria, the potential of collaborating with Syria for water, gas. Eugene Kandel:   Electricity. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Electricity. And I presume that you're referring to the possibility of Syria being one of the next members to join the Abraham Accords. That has been mentioned as a possibility. Eugene Kandel:   Maybe. But we can, we can do something much less. Manya Brachear Pashman: Outside of the Accords. Eugene Kandel:   Outside of the Accords, or pre-Accord, or we can, we can just create some kind of collaboration, just we had, like as we had with UAE for for 15 years before the Accord was signed. Was a clear understanding.  Maybe. But we can, we can do something much less outside of the Accord, or pre-Accord, or we can, we can just create some kind of collaboration, just we had, like as we had with UAE for for 15 years before the Accord was signed. Was a clear understanding.  You know, I was in UAE, in Dubai on the day of signing of the Accord. I landed in Dubai when they were signing on the on the green loan, on the White House lawn. And we landed. It was amazing. It was the degree of warmth that we received from everybody, from ministers in the economy to ministers that came to speak to us, by the dozen to people in the hotel that were just meeting us. They issued, for example, before signing the Accord, there was a regulation passed by by UAE that every hotel has to have kosher food. We don't have that in Israel. I mean, hotels mostly have kosher food, but not all of them, and, and it's not by law.  This was, like, clear, we want these people to feel comfortable. It was truly amazing. I've never, I could never imagine that I would come to a country where we didn't have any relations until today, and suddenly feel very, very welcome. On every level, on the street, in restaurants. And that was quite amazing, and that was the result of us collaborating below the surface for many, many years. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Parity of esteem, yes? Suddenly. Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, they didn't feel they did exactly the important part when the UAE businessman or or Ambassador order you feel completely no chip on the shoulder whatsoever. They feel very proud of their heritage. They feel very proud of their achievements. They feel and you feel at the same level. They feel at the same level, just like you would with the Europeans. We always felt that there was something like when, when, Arab delegations, always tension. I don't know whether it was superiority or inferiority. I don't know. It doesn't matter, but it was always tension in here. I didn't feel any tension. Was like, want to do business, we want to learn from you, and you'll to learn from us. And it was just wow. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Same in Bahrain and Morocco? Eugene Kandel:   I haven't been to Bahrain and Morocco. I think Bahrain wants to do business. They were very even, sort of some of, we sent the delegation to Bahrain to talk about sort of Israeli technology and how to build an ecosystem in the same with Morocco. I think it's a bit different. I think it's a bit different because we didn't see much going on from from these two countries. Although Morocco is more advancing much faster than Bahrain. There are a lot of interesting proposals coming out of it.  There's a genuine desire there. In the last two years, of course, it was difficult for for anybody to do anything in those but interestingly, when almost no European airlines or American airlines were flying to us, Etihad and Emirates were flying to Israel. They were flying. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Past two years? Eugene Kandel:   Yeah, they would not stop. And you're just like, wow. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So would you say the Abraham Accords have had a significant impact on Israel's economy at all? Eugene Kandel:   I do not know. I mean, I don't have data on that by the sheer number. I mean, the the number of Israeli tourists Sue UAE, it's probably 10 or 20 to one to the vice versa. So we've been Israelis flooding UAE. In terms of investments, there are some technology investments. There's some, some more infrastructural investors, like they bought 20% of our gas field. There are collaborations between universities and research centers. So it's hard to measure, but you have to remember that there was a huge amount of trade and collaboration under the surface. So it surfaced. But that doesn't mean that there was an effect on the economy, just people suddenly saw it. So you don't know what the Delta was. If the same amount of business was suddenly coming out of Jordan, we would have seen, you know, big surge. So I'm not sure how much . . . I don't mean to say that there was no impact. I'm just saying that the impact was much more gradual, because there was so much already, right? But I'm sure that it is continuing, and the fact that these airlines were continuing to fly, indicates that there is a demand, and there's a business. Initially a lot of Israelis thought that there was, this was a money bag, and they would go there and try to raise money and not understanding culture, not understanding. That period is over. I mean, the Emiratis conveyed pretty clearly that they not. They're very sophisticated investors. They know how to evaluate so they do when they make investments, these investments make sense, rather than just because you wanted to get some money from somebody. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Well, thank you so much.  Eugene Kandel:   Thank you.  Manya Brachear Pashman:   If you missed our last episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with AJC's Director of Congressional Affairs Jessica Bernton. We spoke shortly after receiving the news that a deal had been reached and the hostages from the October 7 Hamas terror attack might finally come home after two years in captivity. That dream was partially realized last week when all the living hostages returned and the wait began for those who were murdered.  

"Since before he was President, he [Trump] has made it clear that this is a priority, and he has instructed his team to work on this issue day in and day out . . . " More than two years after the October 7 massacre, Hamas has agreed to return the 48 hostages still in Gaza under the U.S.-brokered peace deal. Jessica Bernton, AJC's Director of Congressional Affairs, shares details of AJC's joint advocacy with the hostage families of returned hostages—how personal stories, bipartisan meetings with Congress and the White House, and coordinated delegations kept the issue at the forefront. She reflects on the emotional weight of this work, its impact on the U.S. administration, and the ongoing need to press policymakers to ensure that all hostages are safely returned. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Take Action: Elected Leaders: Demand Hamas Release the Hostages Key Resources: AJC's Efforts to Support the Hostages Listen – AJC Podcasts: Architects of Peace The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:  More than two years after the October 7 massacre, the Hamas terror group has reportedly agreed at long last, to return the 48 hostages that remain in Gaza. With us now is Jessica Bernton, AJC's director of Congressional Affairs, who has been working with the families of hostages since day one to bring them all home. Jessica, welcome to People of the Pod. Jessica Bernton:  Thanks so much, Manya, it's a pleasure to be here.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  So you must be so relieved. I know you've been so immersed in all of this. When can we celebrate though? Is now too soon? Jessica Bernton:  Oh, what a great question. I would say, I have this cautious optimism at the moment. There have been many ups and downs. There have been starts and stops throughout these long months and now two years, but this one does feel different. I would say, you know, this is the most progress we've seen since the spring, and we have to continue to have hope.  We also cannot afford to let up the pressure until every single hostage is returned home. And so I would say we cannot exhale until everyone is returned. And once everybody is walking across the border, or the deceased are returned home for burial, that is when we can truly celebrate. Once every single person is returned. Manya Brachear Pashman:  You said it feels different? How? How does it feel different? Jessica Bernton:  You know, there's been a lot of pressure exerted in recent weeks. I'd say the US administration has stepped up their efforts as well, working with other countries, including partners across the world here. And a deal was signed.  And so I think a lot can happen, though, between this announcement and actually, again, when hostages are returned, or when the first phase begins, and both sides need to continue to adhere to each side of the agreement. But this really is the most progress that there has been in some time. Manya Brachear Pashman:  As I said in the introduction, you've been working since day one, bringing delegations to Washington to meet with members of Congress, meet with White House staff, including both President Biden and President Trump. What has happened most recently that might have made a difference here? Jessica Bernton:  I think the most important thing here is that the families as well as the returned hostages, because we've been so far down in this process that we were advocating for the release of certain hostages, and now those individuals have come to DC and have been traveling across the world to make sure that their voice is heard. And they're speaking up for those that they were held in captivity with, who don't have a voice at the moment.  And so it's been really incredible and emotional to have advocated, let's say, for somebody like the return of Keith Siegel or Doron Steinbrecher. And now we have joined them in going to the Hill, into these meetings, advocating for the return of every single hostage, and that's been really incredible.  But I think the most important thing here is that these conversations have continued. And keeping this issue at the forefront of everybody's minds. The American public, government officials, foreign officials, community leaders, ensuring that the hostages have not been forgotten has been our top priority here, and ensuring that this remains a foreign policy priority for the US government in particular.  And clearly it has paid off, because these hostages have been able to continue to tell their story, and we are where we are today, and hopefully this progress will continue. But it's been really incredible to see this, especially in the past couple months, as those who have been returned or released have now come to Washington, DC as well and are able to do this type of advocacy.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  You mentioned Keith Siegel, one of the American-Israeli hostages, who was released earlier this year. They've been able to talk about their experiences, former hostages have been able to talk about their experiences in captivity and share that with President Trump in a way that their loved ones who were advocating for their release could not. What have they revealed about their experience that their loved ones could not possibly have known? Jessica Bernton:  You know, I think it's one thing to read articles or, you know, hear about what happened to them, and then it's another thing to hear it firsthand. And I think hearing about the brutality and the heartbreak and everything that they suffered, as well as what they've shared publicly about who they were held with and the information that they've been able to also offer to families and hope that they've been able to give to the families who don't know the status of their loved one.  Again, it's one thing to read an article and it's another to be sitting in a room listening to these incredibly powerful, emotional, and moving stories. And I think, you know, having them be able to share this has been incredibly important, and I think very impactful. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Is there a particular story or experience that stands out in your mind, that perhaps someone shared with you first intimately, before they shared it publicly? One that really stands out. Jessica Bernton:  I think I'll share a little bit about Ilana Gritzewsky, because we've hosted her for delegations, and our CEO, Ted Deutch joined with her at a press conference on Capitol Hill on Tuesday, on the second anniversary of the October 7 attacks. And she was also on Capitol Hill earlier this year, testifying at the House Foreign Affairs Committee at a bipartisan round table there. And she was brutally kidnapped alongside her partner, Matan Zangauker, who's still being held captive.  And the words that have stuck with me about Ilana, and also sort of you know the story with her partner, Matan, is that she said she cannot heal until everyone has returned home, and the rest of the hostages who have come home also cannot heal until every single person has been returned. And I think that is something that we've heard time and time again, this process, you know, in order for them to grieve, to heal, to process. I don't think there will ever be getting back to a normal life, but as much as they can, it will begin once everybody is returned home. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Former hostages, families of hostages have met with President Trump. He's welcomed them into the Oval Office. It seems like President Trump has made this a personal mission of his to get the hostages home. Perhaps that's why we've finally seen success and a deal made. Why do you think that might be the case? What moved the needle finally? Jessica Bernton:  Yeah, I mean, I think since before he was President, he has made it clear that this is a priority, and he has instructed his team to work on this issue day in and day out, and to have this access to a president like this is very notable. And we've seen these incredibly powerful images of released hostages, returned hostages, and also family members of those who are still captive meeting in the Oval Office.  And one can only assume that this has to be a priority for the President here, he's shown his seriousness. And again, we've now ended up with this current deal, which hopefully can be seen to fruition and can be implemented all the way. But it does seem like this has taken on greater importance as the months have gone on this past year, and it's truly incredible. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Any final thoughts, Jessica, as we wait to see the hostages actually return and the various components of this deal come to fruition? Jessica Bernton:  Yeah, I think you know, again, going back to this cautious optimism, I saw a video posted online where there's several returned hostages and released hostages, as well as family members who are in town this week, they've been in town for the second anniversary, and have been doing different meetings and events this week in Washington, DC. And they were on the phone with the President last night, you know, expressing their gratitude. And I think again, that's a powerful symbol here.  But going back to your initial question, and, is it too early to celebrate? We need to be cautiously optimistic and keep the pressure on, and hopefully we really can be celebrating on Monday, if that's when everyone is returned. But AJC will not stop until everybody, every single hostage, has been returned, and that's when we will truly celebrate here. Manya Brachear Pashman:  Thank you so much, Jessica. Really appreciate you joining us, and may we see all of this materialize in the days to come.  Jessica Bernton:  Absolutely thank you, Manya.  Manya Brachear Pashman:  Prior to the High Holidays, we brought you five episodes of our limited podcast series, architects of peace, the story of the Abraham accords. Our final episode deals with the challenges presented by the Israel-Hamas war.  As we approach a potential end to that war, we are pressing pause on that episode to make sure we include any significant developments. Until then, People of the Pod will resume its regular weekly interviews. Stay tuned for the final episode of Architects of Peace.

On the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, AJC hosted a conversation with Jason Greenblatt, a key architect of the Abraham Accords, and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro. They discussed the challenges threatening regional stability, from unilateral moves on Palestinian statehood to political pressures within Israel, and underscored what's at stake—and what it will take—to expand the Abraham Accords and advance peace. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  Episode lineup: Dan Shapiro (1:00) Jason Greenblatt (18:05) Full transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/accords-of-tomorrow-architects-of-peace-episode-5 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. AJC.org/AbrahamAccords - The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: AJC.org/ForgottenExodus AJC.org/PeopleofthePod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years – decades – in the making: landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords – normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf states, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs and turning the spotlight on some of the results. Introducing the Architects of Peace. On the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly in September, American Jewish Committee hosted conversations with former Middle East envoy Jason Greenblatt, a key architect of the Abraham Accords, and former U.S. Ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro:. Both diplomats discussed the dangers threatening peace in the region, including some countries' unilateral calls for Palestinian statehood. They shared what's at stake and what it will take to expand the Abraham Accords and make progress toward peace in the region. We're including those conversations as part of our series.  AJC's Chief Strategy and Communications Officer Belle Yoeli starts us off with Ambassador Shapiro. Belle Yoeli:  Ambassador Shapiro, thank you so much for being with us. We're going to speak primarily about unilateral recognition of Palestinian statehood, but I, of course, want to ask you a couple of questions, because you have so much to share with us before we dive in.  First and foremost, as we've said, It's been almost two years, and at AJC, we're all about optimism and playing the long game, as you know, but it does feel like the challenges for the Jewish community and the state of Israel continue to build. And of course, the war looms very large. What is your analysis of the geopolitical horizon for the war in Gaza. Dan Shapiro:  First, thanks for having me. Thank you to American Jewish Committee and to Ted and everybody for all you do. Thank you, Ruby [Chen], and the families, for the fellowship that we can share with you in this goal. I'll just say it very simply, this war needs to end. The hostages need to come home. Hamas needs to be removed from power. And aid needs to surge into Gaza and move forward with a reconstruction of Gaza for Palestinians who prepare to live in peace with Israel. This is something that is overdue and needs to happen. I think there have been a number of missed opportunities along the way. I don't say this in a partisan way. I think President Trump has missed opportunities at the end of the first ceasefire, when the first ceasefire was allowed to expire after the Iran strike, something I strongly supported and felt was exactly the right thing to do. There was an opening to create a narrative to end the war. I think there have been other missed opportunities. And I don't say in a partisan way, because the administration I served in, the Biden administration, we made mistakes and we missed opportunities. So it can be shared. that responsibility.  But what I do think is that there is a new opportunity right now, and we saw it in President Trump's meeting with Arab leaders. It's going to take very significant, deft, and sustained diplomatic effort. He's got a good team, and they need to do the follow through now to hold the Arabs to their commitments on ensuring Hamas is removed from power, on ensuring that there's a security arrangement in Gaza that does not leave Israel vulnerable to any possibility of a renewal of hostilities against it. And of course, to get the hostages released. That's pressure on the Arabs. And of course, he's got a meeting coming up with Prime Minister Netanyahu, and I do think he's going to need to lean on Prime Minister Netanyahu to overcome the resistance that he has to deal with in his cabinet, from those who want to continue the war or who those who rule out any role of any kind for the Palestinian Authority in something that will follow in the day after in Gaza.  So there is a real opportunity here. Once the war is over, then we have an opportunity to get back on the road that we were on. Two years ago at this UN General Assembly, I was serving as the Biden administration's Senior Advisor on regional integration, the first State Department position to hold that, trying to follow through on the excellent work that Jason Greenblatt and Jared Kushner and, of course, President Trump did in the first term in achieving the Abraham Accords. And we were building out the Negev Forum. And in fact, at that UNGA meeting, we had planned the next ministerial meeting of the Negev Forum. It was to take place October 19 in Marrakesh. Obviously, no one ever heard about that summit. It didn't happen. But getting back on the road to strengthening and expanding the Abraham Accords, to getting Saudi Arabia to the table as a country that will normalize relations with Israel, to expanding regional forums like the Negev Forum. Those are all still within reach, but none of them are possible until the war ends, till the hostages are home, till Hamas is removed from power.  Belle Yoeli:  Absolutely. And we look forward to talking more about the day after, in our next segment, in a segment coming up. Ambassador, you just got back from Israel. Can you tell us about your experience, the mood, what's the climate like in Israel? And any insights from your meetings and time that you think should be top of mind for us? Dan Shapiro:  I think what was top of mind for almost every Israeli I spoke to was the hostages. I spent time in the hostage square in Tel Aviv, spent time with Ruby, spent time with other hostage families, and everywhere you go as everybody who spin their nose, you see the signs, you hear the anxiety. And it's getting deeper because of the time that people are worried is slipping away for, especially for those who are still alive, but for all of those hostages to be returned to their families, so deep, deep anxiety about it, and candidly, some anger, I think we just heard a little bit of it toward a government that they're not sure shares that as the highest priority. There's a lot of exhaustion. People are tired of multiple rounds of reserve duty, hundreds of days. Families stressed by that as well the concern that this could drag on with the new operation well into next year. It's allowed to continue. It's a lot of worry about Israel's increased isolation, and of course, that's part of the subject. We'll discuss how countries who have been friends of Israel, whether in the region or in Europe or elsewhere, are responding in more and more negative ways, and Israel, and all Israelis, even in their personal lives, are feeling that pinch. But there's also some, I guess, expectant hope that President Trump, who is popular in Israel, of course, will use his influence and his regional standing, which is quite significant, to put these pieces together. Maybe we're seeing that happening this week. And of course, there's some expectant hope, or at least expectant mood, about an election next year, which will bring about some kind of political change in Israel. No one knows exactly what that will look like, but people are getting ready for that. So Israelis are relentlessly forward, looking even in the depths of some degree of anxiety and despair, and so I was able to feel those glimmers as well. Belle Yoeli:  And relentlessly resilient, absolutely resilient. And we know that inspires us. Moving back to the piece on diplomatic isolation and the main piece of our conversation, obviously, at AJC, we've been intensely focused on many of the aspects that are concerning us, in terms of unfair treatment of countries towards Israel, but unilateral recognition of Palestinian state is probably the most concerning issue that we've been dealing with this week, and obviously has gotten a lot of attention in the media. So from your perspective, what is this really all about? Obviously, this, this has been on the table for a while. It's not the first time that countries have threatened to do this, but I think it is the first time we're time we're seeing France and other major countries now pushing this forward in this moment. Is this all about political pressure on Israel? Dan Shapiro:  Well, first, I'll say that I think it's a mistake. I think it's an ill advised set of initiatives by France, by Canada, Australia, UK and others. It will change almost it will change nothing on the ground. And so to that sense, it's a purely rhetorical step that changes nothing, and probably does little, if anything, to advance toward the stated goal of some sort of resolution of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And in many ways, it may actually set it back in part because of the way it appears to and certainly many Israelis understand it too. And I'm sorry to say, many Arabs understand it to reward Hamas. Hamas is celebrating it as an achievement of October 7, and that October 7 will find its place in the pantheon of the Palestinian Liberation story that should never be allowed to happen. So doing it this way, doing it without conditioning it on the release of hostages, on the disarming and removal of Hamas from Gaza, is a mistake. And of course, it tells Israelis that their very legitimate concerns about obviously the hostages, but also that some future Palestinian state, wherever and whatever form it might take, could become a threat to them from other parts, from parts of the West Bank, as it was from Gaza on October 7. And you cannot get to that goal unless you're willing to engage the Israeli public on those concerns, very legitimate concerns, and address them in a very forthright way.  So I think it's a mistake. I'm sure, to some degree, others have made this observation. It is motivated by some of the domestic political pressures that these leaders feel from their different constituencies, maybe their left, left wing constituencies, some right wing constituencies, and some immigrant constituencies. And so maybe they're responding to that. And I think that's, you know, leaders deal with those types of things. I think sometimes they make bad decisions in dealing with those types of pressures. I think that's the case here, but I it's also the case. I think it's just fair to say that in the absence of any Israeli Government articulated viable day after, plan for Gaza, something we were urged Israel to work with us on all the time. I was serving in the Biden administration, and I think the Trump administration has as well, but it's remained blurry. What does what is that vision of the day after? Not only when does it start, but what does it look like afterwards? And is it something that Arab States and European states can buy into and get behind and and put their influence to work to get Hamas out and to do a rebuild that meets the needs of both Israelis and Palestinians. There hasn't been that. And so that could have been a way of satisfying some of those domestic pressures, but it wasn't really available. And so I think some of the leaders turn to this ill advised move instead. Belle Yoeli:  So perhaps catering to domestic political concerns and wanting to take some sort of moral high ground on keeping peace alive, but beyond that, no real, practical or helpful outcomes, aside from setting back the cause of peace? Dan Shapiro:  I think it has limited practical effects. Fact, I think it does tell Israelis that much of the world has not internalized their legitimate concerns, and that they will be, you know, cautious at best for this. Everybody knows that there are many Israelis who have been long standing supporters of some kind of two state resolution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And post October 7, they've, they don't still hold that position, or at least they say, if it can happen, it's going to take a long time, it's going to look very different. And I think that actually is some a real practical takeaway, that if we are going to talk about some future establishment of a Palestinian state and some two state arrangement, certainly separation between Israelis and Palestinians, so they don't try to live intermixed in a way that they govern each other. I think that is that is desirable, but it's not necessarily going to look like two state outcomes that were envisioned in the Oslo period, in the 90s and the 2000s it's going to look different. It's going to take longer. And so that is something that I think we have to make sure is understood as people raise this initiative, that their goal is not the goal of 1993 it's going to have to look different, and it's going to have to take longer. Belle Yoeli:  So as more and more countries have sort of joined this, this move that we find to be unhelpful, obviously, a concern that we all have who are engaged in this work is that we've heard response, perhaps, from the Israelis, that there could be potential annexation of the West Bank, and that leads to this sort of very, very, even more concerning scenario that all of the work that you were discussing before, around the Abraham Accords, could freeze, or, perhaps even worse, collapse. What's your analysis on that scenario? How concerned should we be based on everything that you know now and if not that scenario? What else should we be thinking about? Dan Shapiro:  We should be concerned. I was actually in Israel, when the UAE issued their announcement about four weeks ago that annexation in the West Wing could be a red line, and I talked to a very senior UAE official and tried to understand what that means, and they aren't, weren't prepared to or say precisely what it means. It doesn't necessarily mean they're going to break off relations or end the Abraham Accords, but that they would have to respond, and there's a limited range of options for how one could respond, with moving ambassadors or limiting flights or reducing certain kinds of trade or other visits. Nothing good, nothing that would help propel forward the Abraham accords and that particular critical bilateral relationship in a way that we wanted to so I think there's risk. I think if the UAE would take that step, others would probably take similar steps. Egypt and Jordan have suggested there would be steps. So I think there's real risk there, and I think it's something that we should be concerned about, and we should counsel our Israeli friends not to go that route. There are other ways that they may respond. In fact, I think we've already seen the Trump administration, maybe as a proxy, make some kind of moves that try to balance the scales of these unilateral recognitions. But that particular one, with all of the weight that it carries about what how it limits options for future endpoints, I think would be very, very damaging. And I don't think I'm the only one. Just in the last hour and a half or so, President Trump, sitting in the Oval Office, said very publicly that he, I think you said, would not allow Netanyahu to do the Analyze annexation of the West Bank. I think previously, it was said by various people in the administration that it's really an Israeli decision, and that the United States is not going to tell them what to do. And that's perfectly fine as a public position, and maybe privately, you can say very clearly what you think is the right course, he's now said it very publicly. We'll see if he holds to that position. But he said it, and I think given the conversations he was having with Arab leaders earlier this week, given the meeting, he will have his fourth meeting. So it's obviously a very rich relationship with Prime Minister Netanyahu on Monday, I think it's clear what he believes is necessary to get to the end of this war and not leave us in a worse position for trying to get back on the road to his goals. His goals of expanding the Abraham accords his great achievement from the first term, getting Saudi Arabia to normalize relations, of course, getting hostages released and getting Arabs involved in the reconstruction of Gaza in a way that Gaza can never become the threat it was again on October 7, those are his goals. They'll be well served by the end of the war that I described earlier, and by avoiding this cycle that you're referencing. Belle Yoeli:  Putting aside the issue of unilateral recognition, I think we've seen in our work with our Israeli counterparts, sort of differences in the political establish. Around how important it is in thinking about the day after and seeing movement on the Palestinian issue. And we've seen from some that they perhaps make it out that it's not as important that the Palestinian having movement towards a political path. It's not necessarily a have to be front and center, while others seem to prioritize it. And I think in our work with Arab countries, it's very clear that there does have to be some tangible movement towards the political aspirations for the Palestinian for there to really be any future progress beyond the Abraham accords. What's your take? Dan Shapiro:  My take is that the Arab states have often had a kind of schizophrenic view about the Palestinian issue. It's not always been, maybe rarely been their highest priority. They've certainly had a lot of disagreements with and maybe negative assessments of Palestinian leaders, of course, Hamas, but even Palestinian Authority leaders. And so, you know, it's possible to ask the question, or it has been over time, you know, how high do they prioritize? It? Certainly those countries that stepped forward to join the Abraham accords said they were not going to let that issue prevent them from advancing their own interests by establishing these productive bilateral relations with Israel, having said that there's no question that Arab publics have been deeply, deeply affected by the war in Gaza, by the coverage they see they unfortunately, know very little about what happened on October 7, and they know a lot about Israeli strikes in Gaza, civilian casualties, humanitarian aid challenges, and so that affects public moods. Even in non democratic countries, leaders are attentive to the views of their publics, and so I think this is important to them. And every conversation that I took part in, and I know my colleagues in the Biden administration with Arab states about those day after arrangements that we wanted them to participate in, Arab security forces, trainers of Palestinian civil servants, reconstruction funding and so forth. They made very clear there were two things they were looking for. They were looking for a role for the Palestinian Authority, certainly with room to negotiate exactly what that role would be, but some foothold for the Palestinian Authority and improving and reforming Palestinian Authority, but to have them be connected to that day after arrangement in Gaza and a declared goal of some kind of Palestinian state in the future.  I think there was a lot of room in my experience, and I think it's probably still the case for flexibility on the timing, on the dimensions, on some of the characteristics of that outcome. And I think a lot of realism among some of these Arab leaders that we're not talking about tomorrow, and we're not talking about something that might have been imagined 20 or 30 years ago, but they still hold very clearly to those two positions as essentially conditions for their involvement in getting to getting this in. So I think we have to take it seriously. It sounds like President Trump heard that in his meeting with the Arab leaders on Tuesday. It sounds like he's taking it very seriously. Belle Yoeli:  I could ask many more questions, but I would get in trouble, and you've given us a lot to think about in a very short amount of time. Ambassador Shapiro, thank you so much for being with us. Dan Shapiro:  Thank you. Thank you everybody.  Manya Brachear Pashman: As you heard, Ambassador Shapiro served under President Obama. Now AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson speaks with Jason Greenblatt, who served under President Trump. But don't expect a counterpoint. Despite their political differences, these two men see eye to eye on quite a bit. Jason Isaacson: Jason first, thank you for the Abraham Accords. The work that you did changed the history of the Middle East. We are so full of admiration for the work of you and your team. Jared Kushner. Of course, President Trump, in changing the realities for Israel's relationship across the region and opening the door to the full integration of Israel across the region.  It's an unfinished work, but the work that you pioneered with the President, with Jared, with the whole team, has changed the perspective that Israel can now enjoy as it looks beyond the immediate borders, Jordan and Egypt, which has had relations with a quarter a century or more, to full integration in the region. And it's thanks to you that we actually are at this point today, even with all the challenges. So first, let me just begin this conversation by just thanking you for what you've done.  Jason Greenblatt: Thank you. Thank you, and Shana Tova to everybody, thank you for all that you do. Jason Isaacson: Thank you. So you were intimately involved in negotiations to reach normalization agreements between Israel and the Kingdom of Morocco, the Kingdom of Bahrain, of course, the United Arab Emirates. Can you take us behind the scenes of these negotiations? At what point during the first term of President Trump did this become a priority for the administration, and when did it seem that it might actually be a real possibility? Jason Greenblatt: So I have the benefit, of course, of looking backward, right? We didn't start out to create the Abraham Accords. We started out to create peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which, as Dan knows, and so many people here know, including you Jason, seems to be an impossible task. But I would say that if I follow the breadcrumbs, my first meeting with Yousef Al Otaiba was a lunch, where it was the first time I actually ever met an Emirati, the first time I understood the psychology of the Emiratis. And others. I realized that the world had changed tremendously.  Everything that you heard about anti-Israel wasn't part of the conversation. I'll go so far as to say, when I went to the Arab League Summit that took place in Jordan in March of 2017 where I met every foreign minister. And I'm not going to tell you that I loved many of those meetings, or 85% of the conversation, where it wasn't exactly excited about Israel and what Israel stood for. There were so many things in those conversations that were said that gave me hope.  So it was multiple years of being in the White House and constantly trying to work toward that. But I want to go backwards for a second, and you touched on this in your speech, there are many parents and grandparents of the Abraham Accords, and AJC is one of those parents or grandparents. There are many people who work behind the scenes, Israeli diplomats and so many others. And I'm sure the Kingdom of Morocco, where the architecture was built for something like the Abraham Accords, everybody wanted regional peace and talked about Middle East peace. But we were fortunate, unfortunately for the Palestinians who left the table, which was a big mistake, I think, on their part, we're very fortunate to take all of that energy and all of that hard work and through a unique president, President Trump, actually create that architecture.  On a sad note, I wouldn't say that when I left the White House, I thought I'd be sitting here thinking, you know, five years out, I thought there'd be lots of countries that would already have signed and all the trips that I take to the Middle East, I thought would be much. Now they're easy for me, but we're in a very, very different place right now. I don't think I ever would have envisioned that. Jason Isaacson: Thank you. The administration has talked a great deal about expanding the Abraham Accords, of course, and as have we. Indeed, at an AJC program that we had in Washington in February with Special Envoy Steven Witkoff, he talked publicly for the first time about Lebanon and Syria joining the Accords. Obviously, with both of those countries, their new political situation presents new possibilities.  However, the ongoing war in Gaza, as we've been discussing with Ambassador Shapiro, and Israel's actions, including most recently striking Hamas in Doha, have further isolated Israel in the region and made an expansion of the accords harder to envision. At least, that's the way it seems. Given the current situation in the Middle East. Do you think the Trump administration can be successful in trying to broker new agreements, or do the current politics render that impossible in the short term? How hopeful are you? Jason Greenblatt: So I remain hopeful. First of all, I think that President Trump is a unique president because he's extremely close to the Israeli side, and he's very close to the Arab side. And he happens to have grandchildren who are both, right. I think, despite this terrible time that we're facing, despite hostage families, I mean, the terrible things that they have to live through and their loved ones are living it through right now, I still have hope. There's no conversation that I have in the Arab world that still doesn't want to see how those Abraham Accords can be expanded. Dan, you mentioned the Arab media. It's true, the Arab world has completely lost it when it comes to Israel, they don't see what I see, what I'm sure all of you see.  I'm no fan of Al Jazeera, but I will say that there are newspapers that I write for, like Arab News. And when I leave the breakfast room in a hotel in Riyadh and I look at the headlines of, not Al Jazeera, but even Arab News, I would say, Wow, what these people are listening to and reading, what they must think of us. And we're seeing it now play out on the world stage. But despite all that, and I take my kids to the Middle East all the time, we have dear friends in all of those countries, including very high level people. I've gotten some great Shana Tovas from very high level people. They want the future that was created by the Abraham Accords. How we get there at this particular moment is a big question mark. Jason Isaacson: So we touched on this a little bit in the earlier conversation with Dan Shapiro:. Your team during the first Trump administration was able to defer an Israeli proposal to annex a portion of the West Bank, thanks to obviously, the oped written by Ambassador Al Otaiba, and the very clear position that that government took, that Israel basically had a choice, normalization with the UAE or annexation. Once again, there is discussion now in Israel about annexation. Now the President, as Ambassador Shapiro just said, made a very dramatic statement just a couple of hours ago. How do you see this playing out? Do you think that annexation is really off the table now? And if it were not off the table, would it prevent the continuation of the agreements that were reached in 2020 and the expansion of those agreements to a wider integration of Israel in the region? Jason Greenblatt: To answer that, I think for those of you who are in the room, who don't know me well, you should understand my answer is coming from somebody who is on the right of politics, both in Israel and here. In fact, some of my Palestinian friends would say that sometimes I was Bibi's mouthpiece. But I agree with President Trump and what he said earlier today that Dan had pointed out, I don't think this is the time. I don't think it's the place. And I was part of the team that wrote the paperwork that would have allowed Israel to . . . you use the word annexation. I'll say, apply Israeli sovereignty. You'll use the word West Bank, I'll use Judea, Samaria.  Whatever the label is, it really doesn't matter. I don't think this is the time to do it. I think Israel has so many challenges right now, militarily, hostages, there's a million things going on, and the world has turned against Israel. I don't agree with those that are pushing Bibi. I don't know if it's Bibi himself, but I hope that Bibi could figure out a way to get out of that political space that he's in. And I think President Trump is making the right call. Jason Isaacson: So, I was speaking with Emirati diplomats a couple of days ago, who were giving me the sense that Israel hasn't gotten the message that the Palestinian issue is really important to Arab leaders. And we talked about this with Ambassador Shapiro earlier, that it's not just a rhetorical position adopted by Arab leaders. It actually is the genuine view of these Arab governments. Is that your sense as well that there needs to be something on the Palestinian front in order to advance the Abraham Accords, beyond the countries that we've established five years ago? Jason Greenblatt: You know, when I listened to Dan speak, and I told him this after his remarks, I'm always reminded that even though we disagree around the edges on certain things, if you did a Venn diagram, there would be a lot of overlap. I agree with how he sees the world. But I want to take it even back to when I was in the White House.  There are many times people said, Oh, the Arabs don't care about the Palestinians. They don't care. We could just do whatever we want. It's not true. They may care more about their own countries, right? They all have their visions, and it's important to them to advance their own visions. The Palestinian cause may not have been as important, but there is no way that they were going to abandon the Palestinians back then, and I don't think the UAE or the Kingdom of Morocco or others having entered into the Abraham Accords, abandoned the Palestinians. I think that was the wrong way to look at it, but they are certainly not going to abandon the Palestinians now. And I think that how Dan described it, which is there has to be some sort of game plan going forward. Whether you want to call it a state, which, I don't like that word, but we can't continue to live like this. I'm a grandfather now of three. I don't want my grandchildren fighting this fight. I really don't. Is there a solution?  Okay, there's a lot of space between what I said and reality, and I recognize that, but it's incumbent on all of us to keep trying to figure out, is there that solution? And it's going to include the Palestinians. I just want to close my answer with one thing that might seem odd to everybody. I'm not prone to quoting Saeb Erekat, who I disagreed with, the late Saeb Erekat, who I disagreed with just about on everything, but he used to tell me, Jason, the answer isn't in the Koran, it's not in the Torah, it's not in the Christian Bible, and the Israelis and the Palestinians are not leaving the space. So let's figure out a solution that we could all live with. So that's how I see it. Jason Isaacson: Thank you for that. One last question. I also heard in another conversation with other em righty diplomats the other day that the conflict isn't between Arabs and Israelis or Arabs and Jews, it's between moderates and extremists, and that the UAE is on the side of the moderates, and Morocco is on the side of the moderates, and the Kingdom of Bahrain is on the side of the moderates, and Israel is on the side of the moderates. And that's what we have to keep in our minds.   But let me also ask you something that we've been saying for 30 years across the region, which is, if you believe in the Palestinian cause, believe in rights for the Palestinians, you will advance that cause by engaging Israel, not by isolating Israel. Is that also part of the argument that your administration used five years ago? Jason Greenblatt: 100%. I think, I mean, I kept pushing for it and eventually they did it, for the Israelis and the Arabs to engage directly. Yes, the US plays a role, and they could play a moderating role. They could play somewhat of a coercive role. Nobody's going to force the Israelis, or frankly, even the Palestinians, to do anything they don't want to do, but getting them in the room so there are no missed signals, no missed expectations, I think, is the key part of this solution. I'm still hopeful, just to go back to your prior question, that they could get the right people in the room and somebody like President Trump, together with Emirati diplomats, Moroccan diplomats and others. They could talk rationally, and sanely, and appropriately, and we'll get somewhere good. Jason Isaacson: Ok, look ahead. We just marked the fifth anniversary of the Abraham Accords. Will there be a 10th Anniversary of the Abraham Accords, and will it look the same that it is now? Jason Greenblatt: No, I think it's going to be better. Yes, I think there's going to be a 10th Anniversary. I think there will be challenges. But maybe the best way I could answer this is, when the, I'll call it, the beeper incident in Lebanon happened. Okay, quite, quite a feat. I was in a conference room at a client of mine in the Middle East. Most of the room was filled with Lebanese Arabs, Christians and Muslims and some Druze. And it was unusual for everybody's phone to buzz at once, because I'm usually following the Israeli and American news. They're following Arab news. All the phones buzz. So somebody stopped talking, and we all picked up our phone to look at it. And I'm looking at the headlines thinking, oh, boy, am I in the wrong room, right?  And after a minute or so of people kind of catching their breath, understanding what happened, two or three of them said, wow, Jason. Like, that's incredible. Like, you know, I wasn't in the White House anymore, but they also want a different future, right? They are sick and tired of Lebanon being a failed state. Their kids are like my kids, and they're just . . . they're everything that they're building is for a different future, and I see that time and time again. So to go back to the UAE diplomats comment, which I hear all the time as well. It really is a fight of moderates against extremists. The extremists are loud and they're very bad. We know that, but we are so much better. So working together, I think we're going to get to somewhere great. Jason Isaacson: Very good. Okay. Final question. You can applaud, it's okay. Thank you for that. Out of the Abraham Accords have grown some regional cooperation agreements. I too, you too, IMEC, the India, Middle East, Europe, Economic corridor. Do you see that also, as part of the future, the creation of these other regional agreements, perhaps bringing in Japan and Korea and and other parts of the world into kind of expanding the Abraham Accords? In ways that are beneficial to many countries and also, at the same time, deepening the notion of Israelis, Israel's integration in the region. Jason Greenblatt: 100% and I know I think AJC has been very active on the IMEC front. People used to say, Oh, this is not an economic peace. It isn't an economic peace, but nor is economics not a very important part of peace. So all of these agreements, I encourage you to keep working toward them, because they will be needed. In fact, one of the fights that I used to have with Saeb Erekat and President Abbas all the time is, I know you're not an economic issue, but let's say we manage to make peace. What's going to happen the next day? You need an economic plan. Let's work on the economic plan. So whether it's IMEC or something else, just keep working at it. Go, you know, ignore the bad noise. The bad noise is here for a little while, unfortunately, but there will be a day after, and those economic agreements are what's going to be the glue that propels it forward. Jason Isaacson: Jason Greenblatt, really an honor to be with you again. Thank you.  Manya Brachear Pashman: In our next episode of the series, we will explore more of the opportunities and challenges presented by the Abraham Accords and who might be the next country to sign the landmark peace agreement.  Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland Inspired Middle East: ID: 241884108; Composer: iCENTURY Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher

Tune into the fourth installment of AJC's latest limited podcast series, Architects of Peace. Go behind the scenes of the decades-long diplomacy and quiet negotiations that made the Abraham Accords possible, bringing Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and later Morocco, together in historic peace agreements.  From cockpits to kitchens to concert halls, the Abraham Accords are inspiring unexpected partnerships. In the fourth episode of AJC's limited series, four "partners of peace" share how these historic agreements are reshaping their lives and work. Hear from El Mehdi Boudra of the Mimouna Association on building people-to-people ties; producer Gili Masami on creating a groundbreaking Israeli–Emirati song; pilot Karim Taissir on flying between Casablanca and Tel Aviv while leading Symphionette, a Moroccan orchestra celebrating Andalusian music; and chef Gal Ben Moshe, the first Israeli chef to ever cook in Dubai on his dream of opening a restaurant in the UAE. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  Episode lineup: El Mehdi Boudra (4:00) Gili Masami (11:10) Karim Taissir (16:14) Gal Ben Moshe (21:59) Read the transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/partners-of-peace-architects-of-peace-episode-4 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: The Forgotten Exodus  People of the Pod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: El Mehdi Boudra: All the stereotypes started like getting out and people want to meet with the other. They wanted to discover the beauty of the diversity of Israel. And this is unique in the region, where you have Arabs Muslims, Arab Christians, Druze, Beta Yisrael, Ashkenazi, Sephardic Jews, Jews from India, from all over the world. This beauty of diversity in Israel is very unique for our region. Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years – decades – in the making: landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords – normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf states, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco.  Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs and turning the spotlight on some of the results. Introducing: the Architects of Peace. ILTV correspondent: Well, hello, shalom, salaam. For the first time since the historic normalization deal between Israel and the UAE, an Israeli and an Emirati have teamed up to make music. [Ahlan Bik plays] The signs have been everywhere. On stages in Jerusalem and in recording studios in Abu Dhabi. [Camera sounds]. On a catwalk in Tel Aviv during Fashion Week and on the covers of Israeli and Arab magazines. [Kitchen sounds]. In the kitchens of gourmet restaurants where Israeli and Emirati chefs exchanged recipes. Just days after the announcement of the Abraham Accords, Emirati ruler Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed Al Nahyan formally ended the UAE's nearly 50-year boycott of Israel. Though commerce and cooperation had taken place between the countries under the radar for years, the boycott's official end transformed the fields of water, renewable energy, health, cybersecurity, and tourism.  In 2023, Israel and the UAE signed a Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement (CEPA) to advance economic cooperation, and by 2024, commerce between the UAE and Israel grew to $3.2 billion. Trade between Bahrain and Israel surged 740% in one year. As one of the world's most water-stressed countries, Bahrain's Electrical and Water Authority signed an agreement to acquire water desalination technology from Israel's national water company [Mekorot].  Signs of collaboration between Israeli and Arab artists also began to emerge. It was as if a creative energy had been unlocked and a longing to collaborate finally had the freedom to fly. [Airplane take off sounds]. And by the way, people had the freedom to fly too, as commercial airlines sent jets back and forth between Tel Aviv, Casablanca, Abu Dhabi, and Manama.  A gigantic step forward for countries that once did not allow long distance calls to Israel, let alone vacations to the Jewish state. At long last, Israelis, Moroccans, Emiratis, and Bahrainis could finally satisfy their curiosity about one another. This episode features excerpts from four conversations. Not with diplomats or high-level senior officials, but ordinary citizens from the region who have seized opportunities made possible by the Abraham Accords to pursue unprecedented partnerships. For El Medhi Boudra, the Abraham Accords were a dream come true.  As a Muslim college student in 2007 at Al Akhawayn University in Ifrane, Morocco, he founded a group dedicated to preserving and teaching the Jewish heritage of his North African home. El Mehdi knew fostering conversations and friendships would be the only way to counter stereotypes and foster a genuine appreciation for all of Morocco's history, including its once-thriving Jewish community of more than 100,000. Five years later, El Mehdi's efforts flourished into a nonprofit called Mimouna, the name of a Moroccan tradition that falls on the day after Passover, when Jewish and Muslim families gather at each other's homes to enjoy cakes and sweets and celebrate the end of the Passover prohibitions. Together.   El Mehdi Boudra: Our work started in the campus to fill this gap between the old generation who talk with nostalgia about Moroccan Jews, and the young generation who don't know nothing about Moroccan Judaism. Then, in the beginning, we focused only on the preservation and educating and the promotion of Jewish heritage within campuses in Morocco. In 2011, we decided to organize the first conference on the Holocaust in the Arab world. Manya Brachear Pashman: So did the Abraham Accords make any difference in the work you were already doing? I mean, I know Mimouna was already a longtime partner with AJC.  El Mehdi Boudra: With Abraham Accords, we thought bigger. We brought young professionals from Morocco and Israel to work together in certain sectors on challenges that our regions are overcoming. Like environment, climate change, water scarcity and innovation, and bring the best minds that we have in Morocco and in Israel to work together. But we included also other participants from Emirates and Bahrain. This was the first one that we started with.  The second was with AJC. We invited also young professionals from United States and France, which was an opportunity to work globally. Because today, we cannot work alone. We need to borrow power from each other. If we have the same vision and the same values, we need to work together.  In Morocco, we say: one hand don't clap. We need both hands. And this is the strategy that we have been doing with AJC, to bring all the partners to make sure that we can succeed in this mission.  We had another people-to-people initiative. This one is with university students. It's called Youth for MENA. It's with an Israeli organization called Noar. And we try to take advantage of the Abraham Accords to make our work visible, impactful, to make the circle much bigger. Israel is a country that is part of this region. And we can have, Israel can offer good things to our region. It can fight against the challenges that we have in our region. And an Israeli is like an Iraqi. We can work all together and try to build a better future for our region at the end of the day. Manya Brachear Pashman: El Mehdi, when you started this initiative did you encounter pushback from other Moroccans? I mean, I understand the Accords lifted some of the restrictions and opened doors, but did it do anything to change attitudes? Or are there detractors still, to the same degree? El Mehdi Boudra: Before the Abraham Accords, it was more challenging to preserve Moroccan Jewish heritage in Morocco. It was easier. To educate about Holocaust. It was also OK. But to do activities with civil society in Israel, it was very challenging. Because, first of all, there is no embassies or offices between Morocco. Then to travel, there is no direct flights.  There is the stereotypes that people have about you going to Israel. With Abraham Accords, we could do that very freely. Everyone was going to Israel, and more than that, there was becoming like a tendency to go to Israel.  Moroccans, they started wanting to spend their vacation in Tel Aviv. They were asking us as an organization. We told them, we are not a tour guide, but we can help you. They wanted to travel to discover the country.  All the stereotypes started like getting out and people want to meet with other. They wanted to discover the beauty of the diversity of Israel. And this is unique in the region where you have  Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, Druze, Beta Israel, Ashkenazi, Sephardic Jews, Jews from India, from all over the world. This beauty of diversity in Israel is very unique for our region.  And it's not granted in this modern time, as you can see in the region. You can see what happened in Iraq, what's happening in Syria, for minorities. Then you know, this gave us hope, and we need this hope in these dark times. Manya Brachear Pashman: Hm, what do you mean? How does Israel's diversity provide hope for the rest of the Middle East North Africa (MENA) region?  El Mehdi Boudra: Since the MENA region lost its diversity, we lost a lot. It's not the Christians or the Yazidis or the Jews who left the MENA region who are in bad shape. It's the people of the MENA region who are in bad shape because those people, they immigrated to U.S., to Sweden, they have better lives. But who lost is those countries.  Then us as the majority Muslims in the region, we should reach out to those minorities. We should work closely today with all countries, including Israel, to build a better future for our region. There is no choice. And we should do it very soon, because nothing is granted in life.  And we should take this opportunity of the Abraham Accords as a real opportunity for everyone. It's not an opportunity for Israel or the people who want to have relation with Israel. It's an opportunity for everyone, from Yemen to Morocco. Manya Brachear Pashman: Morocco has had diplomatic relations with Israel in the past, right? Did you worry or do you still worry that the Abraham Accords will fall apart as a result of the Israel Hamas War? El Mehdi Boudra: Yes, yes, to tell you the truth, yes. After the 7th of October and things were going worse and worse. We said, the war will finish and it didn't finish. And I thought that probably with the tensions, the protest, will cut again the relations. But Morocco didn't cut those relations. Morocco strengthened those relations with Israel, and also spoke about the Palestinians' cause in the same time.  Which I'm really proud of my government's decisions to not cut those relations, and we hope to strengthen those relations, because now they are not going in a fast dynamic. We want to go back to the first time when things were going very fastly. When United States signed with the Emirates and Bahrain in September 2020, I was hoping that Morocco will be the first, because Morocco had strong relations with Israel. We had direct relations in the 90s and we cut those relations after the Second Intifada in 2000.  We lost those 21 years. But it's not [too] late now. We are working. The 7th of October happened. Morocco is still having relations with Israel. We are still having the Moroccan government and the Israeli government having strong relations together.  Of course, initiatives to people-to-people are less active because of the war. But you know, the war will finish very soon, we hope, and the hostages will go back to their homes, Inshallah, and we will get back to our lives. And this is the time for us as civil society to do stronger work and to make sure that we didn't lose those two years. [Ahlan Bik plays] Manya Brachear Pashman: Just weeks after the White House signing ceremony on September 15, 2020, Israeli music producer Gili Masami posted a music video on YouTube. The video featured a duet between a former winner of Israel's version of The Voice, Elkana Marziano, and Emirati singer Walid Aljasim.  The song's title? Ahlan Bik, an Arabic greeting translated as "Hello, Friend." In under three weeks, the video had garnered more than 1.1 million views. Gili Masami: When I saw Bibi Netanyahu and Trump sign this contract, the Abraham Accords, I said, 'Wow!' Because always my dream was to fly to Dubai. And when I saw this, I said, 'Oh, this is the time to make some project that I already know how to do.' So I thought to make the first historic collaboration between an Israeli singer and an Emirati singer.  We find this production company, and they say, OK. We did this historic collaboration. And the first thing it was that I invite the Emirati people to Israel. They came here. I take them to visit Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, and then I get a call to meet in Gitix Technology Week in the World Trade Center in Dubai. Manya Brachear Pashman: Gitix. That's the Gulf Information Technology Exhibition, one of the world's largest annual tech summits, which met in Dubai that year and invited an Israeli delegation for the first time. Gili Masami: They tell me. 'Listen, your song, it was big in 200 countries, cover worldwide. We want you to make this show.' I said, OK. We came to Dubai, and then we understand that the production company is the family of Mohammed bin Zayed al Nayhan, the president of UAE. And now we understand why they agree.  The brother of Muhammad bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Sheik Issa Ben Zahid Al Nahyan, he had this production company. This singer, it's his singer. And we say, 'Wow, we get to this so high level, with the government of Dubai.' And then all the doors opened in Dubai.  And then it was the Corona. 200 countries around the world cover this story but we can't do shows because this Corona issue, but we still did it first. Manya Brachear Pashman: The song Ahlan Bik translates to "Hello, Friend." It was written by Israeli songwriter Doron Medalie. Can you tell our listeners what it's about? Gili Masami: The song Ahlan Bik, it's this song speak about Ibrihim. Because if we go to the Bible, they are cousins. They are cousins. And you know, because of that, we call this Abraham Accords, because of Avraham. And they are sons of Ishmael. Yishmael. And we are sons of Jacob.  So because of that, we are from back in the days. And this is the real cousins. Saudi Arabia, UAE, Morocco. They are the real ones. And this song speak about this connection. Manya Brachear Pashman: After Morocco joined the Abraham Accords, you also put together a collaboration between Elkana and Moroccan singer Sanaa Mohamed. But your connection to UAE continued. You actually moved to Dubai for a year and opened a production company there. I know you're back in Israel now, but have you kept in touch with people there?   Gili Masami: I have a lot of friends in UAE. A lot of friends. I have a production company in UAE too. But every time we have these problems with this war, so we can do nothing. I was taking a lot of groups to Dubai, making tours, parties, shows, and all this stuff, because this war. So we're still friends.  Manya Brachear Pashman: Given this war, do you ever go back and listen to the song Ahlan Bik for inspiration, for hope?  Gili Masami: I don't look about the thinking that way. These things. I know what I did, and this is enough for me. I did history. This is enough for me. I did [a] good thing. This is enough for me. I did the first collaboration, and this is enough for me. Manya Brachear Pashman: Moroccan pilot and music aficionado Karim Taissir also knows the power of music. In 2016, he reached out to Tom Cohen, the founder and conductor of the Jerusalem Orchestra East & West and invited him to Morocco to conduct Symphonyat, an orchestra of 40 musicians from around the world playing Jewish and Arab music from Morocco's past that often has been neglected.  Karim Taissir: In 2015 I contacted Tom via Facebook because of a story happening in Vietnam. I was in a bar. And this bar, the owner, tried to connect with people. And the concept was a YouTube session connected on the speaker of the bar, and they asked people to put some music on from their countries. So when he asked me, I put something played by Tom [Cohen], it was Moroccan music played by the orchestra of Tom. And people said, 'Wow.'  And I felt the impact of the music, in terms of even, like the ambassador role. So that gave me the idea. Back in Morocco, I contacted him. I told him, 'Listen, you are doing great music, especially when it comes to Moroccan music, but I want to do it in Morocco. So are you ready to collaborate? And you should tell me, what do you need to create an orchestra that do this, this excellency of music?'  And I don't know why he replied to my message, because, usually he got lots of message from people all over the world, but it was like that. So from that time, I start to look of musician, of all conditions, asked by Tom, and in 2016 in April, we did one week of rehearsals. This was a residence of musician in Casablanca by Royal Foundation Hiba. And this is how it starts. And from that time, we tried every year to organize concerts. Sometimes we succeed, and sometimes not. Manya Brachear Pashman: I asked this of El Mehdi too, since you were already doing this kind of bridge building Karim, did the Abraham Accords change anything for you? Karim Taissir: In '22 we did the great collaboration. It was a fusion between the two orchestras, under the conductor Tom Cohen in Timna desert [National Park], with the presence of many famous people, politician, and was around like more than 4,000 people, and the President Herzog himself was was there, and we had a little chat for that.  And even the program, it was about peace, since there was Moroccan music, Israeli music, Egyptian music, Greek music, Turkish music. And this was very nice, 18 musicians on the stage. Manya Brachear Pashman: Oh, wow. 18 musicians. You know, the number 18, of course, is very significant, meaningful for the Jewish tradition.  So, this was a combination of Israeli musicians, Moroccan musicians, playing music from across the region. Turkey, Greece, Egypt, Israel. What did that mean for you? In other words, what was the symbolism of that collaboration and of that choice of music? Karim Taissir: Listen, to be honest, it wasn't a surprise for me, the success of collaboration, since there was excellent artists from Israel and from Morocco. But more than that, the fact that Moroccan Muslims and other people with Israeli musicians, they work together every concert, rehearsals.  They became friends, and maybe it was the first time for some musicians, especially in Morocco. I'm not talking only about peace, happiness, between people. It's very easy in our case, because it's people to people. Manya Brachear Pashman: How have those friendships held up under the strain of the Israel-Hamas War? Karim Taissir: Since 7th October, me, for example, I'm still in touch with all musicians from Israel, not only musicians, all my friends from Israel to support. To support them, to ask if they are OK. And they appreciate, I guess, because I guess some of them feel even before they have friends from all over the world. But suddenly it's not the case for us, it's more than friendships, and if I don't care about them, which means it's not true friendships. And especially Tom. Tom is more than more than a brother. And we are looking forward very soon to perform in Israel, in Morocco, very soon. Manya Brachear Pashman: So I should clarify for listeners that Symphonyat is not your full-time job. Professionally you are a pilot for Royal Air Maroc. And a week after that concert in Timna National Park in March 2022, Royal Air Maroc launched direct flights between Casablanca and Tel Aviv. Those flights have been suspended during the war, but did you get to fly that route? Karim Taissir: They call me the Israeli guy since I like very much to be there. Because I was kind of ambassador since I was there before, I'm trying always to explain people, when you will be there, you will discover other things. Before 7th of October, I did many, many, many flights as captain, and now we're waiting, not only me, all my colleagues.  Because really, really–me, I've been in Israel since 2016–but all my colleagues, the first time, it was during those flights. And all of them had a really nice time. Not only by the beauty of the Tel Aviv city, but also they discover Israeli people. So we had really, really, very nice memories from that period, and hoping that very soon we will launch flight. Manya Brachear Pashman: Chef Gal Ben Moshe, the first Israeli chef to earn a Michelin Star for his restaurant in Berlin, remembers the day he got the call to speak at Gulfood 2021, a world food festival in Abu Dhabi. That call led to another call, then another, and then another.  Before he knew it, Chef Gal's three-day trip to the United Arab Emirates had blossomed into a 10-day series: of master classes, panel discussions, catered dinners, and an opportunity to open a restaurant in Dubai. Gal Ben Moshe: Like I said, it wasn't just one dinner, it wasn't just a visit. It's basically from February '21 to October '23 I think I've been more than six, eight times, in the Emirates. Like almost regularly cooking dinners, doing events, doing conferences. And I cooked in the Dubai Expo when it was there. I did the opening event of the Dubai Expo. And a lot of the things that I did there, again, I love the place. I love the people. I got connected to a lot of people that I really, truly miss. Manya Brachear Pashman: When we first connected, you told me that the Abraham Accords was one of your favorite topics. Why? Gal Ben Moshe: I always felt kind of like, connected to it, because I was the first Israeli chef to ever cook in Dubai. And one of the most influential times of my life, basically going there and being there throughout basically everything from the Abraham Accords up to October 7. To a degree that I was supposed to open a restaurant there on the first of November 2023 which, as you probably know, did not happen in the end.  And I love this place. And I love the idea of the Abraham Accords, and I've had a lot of beautiful moments there, and I've met a lot of amazing people there. And, in a way, talking about it is kind of me missing my friends less. Manya Brachear Pashman: So you were originally invited to speak at Gulfood. What topics did you cover and what was the reception like? Gal Ben Moshe: The journalist that interviewed me, he was a great guy, asked me, 'OK, so, like, where do you want to cook next?' And I said, 'If you would ask me six months ago, I would say that I would love to cook in Dubai, but it's not possible.' So having this happened, like, anything can happen, right? Like, if you would tell me in June 2020 that I would be cooking in Dubai in February 2021, I'm not sure I was going to believe you. It was very secretive, very fast, very surprising. And I said, 'Yeah, you know, I would love to cook in Damascus and Beirut, because it's two places that are basically very influential in the culture of what is the Pan-Arabic kitchen of the Levant. So a lot of the food influence, major culinary influence, comes from basically Aleppo, Damascus and Beirut. Basically, this area is the strongest influence on food. A lot of Jordanians are probably going to be insulted by me saying this, but this is very this is like culinary Mecca, in my opinion.'  And I said it, and somebody from the audience shouted: 'I'm from Beirut! You can stay at my place!' And I was like, it's just amazing. And the funny thing is, and I always talk about it is, you know, I talk about my vegetable suppliers in Berlin and everything in the Syrian chefs and Palestinian chefs and Lebanese chefs that I met in the Emirates that became friends of mine. And I really have this thing as like, I'm gonna say it is that we have so much in common. It's crazy how much we have in common.  You know, we have this war for the past two years with basically everyone around us. But I think that when we take this thing out of context, out of the politics, out of the region, out of this border dispute or religious dispute, or whatever it is, and we meet each other in different country. We have so much in common, and sometimes, I dare say, more than we have in common with ourselves as an Israeli society. And it's crazy how easy it is for me to strike a conversation and get friendly with the Lebanese or with a Palestinian or with the Syrian if I meet them in Berlin or in Dubai or in New York or in London. Manya Brachear Pashman: I should clarify, you run restaurants in Tel Aviv, but the restaurant that earned a Michelin star in 2020 and held on to it for four years, was Prism in Berlin. Tel Aviv was going to be added to the Michelin Guide in December 2023, but that was put on hold after the start of the Israel-Hamas War. Did your time in the Emirates inspire recipes that perhaps landed on your menu at Prism? Gal Ben Moshe: I was approached by a local journalist that wrote cookbooks and he did a special edition cookbook for 50 years for the Emirates. And he wanted me to contribute a recipe. And I did a dish that ended up being a Prism signature dish for a while, of Camel tartar with caviar, quail yolk, grilled onion, and it was served in this buckwheat tortelet. And at the time, it's a concept dish. So basically, the story is this whole story of Dubai. So you have the camel and the caviar, so between the desert and the sea. And then you have the camel, which basically is the nomadic background of Dubai, with the Bedouin culture and everything, and the caviar, which is this luxurious, futuristic–what Dubai is today. And it was really a dish about the Emirates. And I was invited to cook it afterwards in a state dinner, like with very high-end hotel with very high-end guests.  And basically the chef of the hotel, who's a great guy, is like, sending, writing me an email, like, I'm not going to serve camel. I'm not going to serve camel in this meal. And I was like, but it's the whole story. It's the whole thing. He's like, but what's wrong with Wagyu beef? It's like, we're in Dubai. Wagyu beef is very Dubai. And I was like, not in the way that the camel is in that story. Listen, for a chef working there, it's a playground, it's heaven. People there are super curious about food. They're open-minded. And there's great food there. There's a great food scene there, great chefs working there. I think some of the best restaurants in the world are right now there, and it was amazing. Manya Brachear Pashman: There have been other Israeli chefs who opened their restaurants in Dubai before October 7. I know Chef Eyal Shani opened with North Miznon in a Hilton hotel in Dubai. You recently closed Prism, which really was a mom and pop place in Berlin, and you've now opened a hotel restaurant in Prague. Would you still consider opening a kitchen in Dubai? Gal Ben Moshe: I have not given up on the Emirates in any way. Like I've said, I love it there. I love the people there. I love the atmosphere there. I love the idea of being there. I would say that there is complexities, and I understand much better now, in hindsight of these two years. Of why, basically, October 7 meant that much. I live in Berlin for 13 years, and I work with my vegetable suppliers for the past, I would say nine or eight years. They're Palestinians and Syrians and Lebanese and everything.  And even though October 7 happened and everything that's happened afterwards, we're still very close, and I would still define our relationship as very friendly and very positive. The one thing is that, I don't know, but I think it's because we know each other from before. And I don't know if they would have taken the business of an Israeli chef after October 7. So having known me and that I'm not a symbol for them, but I am an individual.  For them it is easier because we're friends, like we worked together, let's say for five years before October 7. It's not going to change our relationship just because October 7 happened. But I think what I do understand is that sometimes our place in the world is different when it comes to becoming symbols. And there are people who don't know me and don't know who I am or what my opinions are, how I view the world, and then I become just a symbol of being an Israeli chef. And then it's you are this, and nothing you can say at that moment changes it.  So I don't think that me opening a restaurant in Dubai before October 7 was a problem. I do understand that an Israeli chef opening a restaurant in Dubai after October 7 was not necessarily a good thing. I can understand how it's perceived as, in the symbolism kind of way, not a good thing. So I think basically, when this war is over, I think that the friendship is there. I think the connection is there. I think the mutual respect and admiration is there. And I think that there is no reason that it can't grow even further. Manya Brachear Pashman: In our next episode, expected to air after the High Holidays, we discuss how the Abraham Accords have held during one of Israel's most challenging times and posit which Arab countries might be next to join the historic pact.  Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace. The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC. You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland אלקנה מרציאנו & Waleed Aljasim - אהלן ביכ | Elkana Marziano AHALAN bik أهلاً بيك Moroccan Suite: Item ID: 125557642; Composer: umberto sangiovanni Medley Ana Glibi Biddi Kwitou / Ma Nebra - Symphonyat with Sanaa Marahati - Casablanca - 2022 Middle East: Item ID: 297982529; Composer: Aditya Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher  

Dive into the third episode of AJC's latest limited podcast series, Architects of Peace. Go behind the scenes of the decades-long diplomacy and quiet negotiations that made the Abraham Accords possible, bringing Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and later Morocco, together in historic peace agreements.  On September 15, 2020, the Abraham Accords were signed at the White House by President Trump, Prime Minister Netanyahu, and the foreign ministers of the UAE and Bahrain. In this third installment of AJC's limited series, AJC CEO Ted Deutch and Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson—who stood on the South Lawn that day—share their memories and insights five years later. Together, they reflect on how the Accords proved that peace is achievable when nations share strategic interests, build genuine relationships, and pursue the greater good. *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC.  Read the transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/from-the-white-house-lawn-architects-of-peace-episode-3 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: Ted Deutch: It was a beautiful day and there was this coming together, this recognition that this was such an historic moment. It's the kind of thing, frankly, that I remember having watched previously, when there were peace agreements signed and thinking that's something that I want to be a part of. And there I was looking around right in the middle of all of this, and so excited about where this could lead. Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years, decades in the making, landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords, normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf States, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs. Introducing: the Architects of Peace. Announcer: Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States. Accompanied by the Prime Minister of the State of Israel; His Highness the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International cooperation of the United Arab Emirates, and the Minister of the Foreign Affairs of the Kingdom of Bahrain.  Manya Brachear Pashman: The guests of honor framed by the South Portico of the White House were an unlikely threesome. Two Arab foreign ministers and the Prime Minister of Israel, there to sign a pair of peace agreements that would transform the Middle East.  Donald Trump: Thanks to the great courage of the leaders of these three countries, we take a major stride toward a future in which people of all faiths and backgrounds live together in peace and prosperity. There will be other countries very, very soon that will follow these great leaders. Manya Brachear Pashman: President Trump's team had achieved what was long thought impossible. After decades of pretending Israel did not exist until it solved its conflict with the Palestinians, Trump's team discovered that attitudes across the Arab region had shifted and after months of tense negotiations, an agreement had been brokered by a small circle of Washington insiders. On August 13, 2020, the United Arab Emirates agreed to become the first Arab state in a quarter century to normalize relations with Israel. Not since 1994 had Israel established diplomatic relations with an Arab country, when King Hussein of Jordan and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin signed a treaty, ending the state of war that had existed between them since Israel's rebirth. A ceremony to celebrate and sign the historic deal was planned for the South Lawn of the White House on September 15, 2020. Before the signing ceremony took place, another nation agreed to sign as well: not too surprisingly the Kingdom of Bahrain.  After all, in June 2019, Bahrain had hosted the Peace to Prosperity summit, a two-day workshop where the Trump administration unveiled the economic portion of its peace plan – a 38-page prospectus that proposed ways for Palestinians and Arab countries to expand economic opportunities in cooperation with Israel.  In addition to Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE all participated in the summit. The Palestinians boycotted it, even as Trump's senior advisor Jared Kushner presented plans to help them. Jared Kushner: A lot of these investments people are unwilling to make because people don't want to put good money after bad money. They've seen in the past they've made these investments, they've tried to help out the Palestinian people, then all of a sudden there's some  conflict that breaks out and a lot of this infrastructure gets destroyed. So what we have here is very detailed plans and these are things we can phase in over time assuming there's a real ceasefire, a real peace and there's an opportunity for people to start making these investments. Manya Brachear Pashman: Now Israel, the UAE, and Bahrain would open embassies, exchange ambassadors, and cooperate on tourism, trade, health care, and regional security. The Accords not only permitted Israelis to enter the two Arab nations using their Israeli passports, it opened the door for Muslims to visit historic sites in Israel, pray at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, the third holiest site in Islam, and finally satisfy their curiosity about the Jewish state. Before signing the accords, each leader delivered remarks. Here's Bahrain's Foreign Minister Abdullatif bin Rashid Al-Zayani. Abdullatif bin Rashid Al-Zayani: For too long, the Middle East has been set back by conflict and mistrust, causing untold destruction and thwarting the potential of generations of our best and brightest young people. Now, I'm convinced, we have the opportunity to change that. Manya Brachear Pashman: UAE's Minister of Foreign Affairs Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan echoed that sentiment and also addressed accusations by Palestinian leadership that the countries had abandoned them. He made it clear that the accords bolstered the Emirates' support for the Palestinian people and their pursuit of an independent state. Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan:  [speaking in Arabic] Manya Brachear Pashman: [translating Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan] This new vision, he said, which is beginning to take shape as we meet today for the future of the region, full of youthful energy, is not a slogan that we raise for political gain as everyone looks forward to creating a more stable, prosperous, and secure future. This accord will enable us to continue to stand by the Palestinian people and realize their hopes for an independent state within a stable and prosperous region. Manya Brachear Pashman: The Truman Balcony, named for the first American president to recognize Israel's independence, served as the backdrop for a few iconic photographs. The officials then made their way down the stairs and took their seats at the table where they each signed three copies of the Abraham Accords in English, Hebrew, and Arabic. The brief ceremony combined formality and levity as the leaders helped translate for each other so someone didn't sign on the wrong dotted line. After that was settled, they turned the signed documents around to show the audience. When they all rose from their seats, Prime Minister Netanyahu paused. After the others put their portfolios down, he stood displaying his for a little while longer, taking a few more seconds to hold on to the magnitude of the moment. Benjamin Netanyahu: To all of Israel's friends in the Middle East, those who are with us today and those who will join us tomorrow, I say, 'As-salamu alaykum. Peace unto thee. Shalom.' And you have heard from the president that he is already lining up more and more countries. This is unimaginable a few years ago, but with resolve, determination, a fresh look at the way peace is done . . . The blessings of the peace we make today will be enormous, first, because this peace will eventually expand to include other Arab states, and ultimately, it can end the Arab Israeli conflict once and for all. [clapping] [Red alert sirens] Manya Brachear Pashman: But peace in Israel was and still is a distant reality as Palestinian leadership did not participate in the Accords, and, in fact, viewed it as a betrayal. As Netanyahu concluded his speech to the audience on the White House Lawn, thousands of miles away, Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system intercepted 15 rockets fired by terrorists in Gaza, at least one striking Israel's coastal city of Ashdod. Iran's regime condemned the agreement. But across most of the region and around the world, the revelation that decades of hostility could be set aside to try something new – a genuine pursuit of peace – inspired hope. Saudi journalists wrote op-eds in support of the UAE and Bahrain. Egypt and Oman praised the Abraham Accords for adding stability to the region. Germany, the United Kingdom, France, and Spain commended the monumental step. United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres welcomed the deal for paving the way toward a two-state solution. AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson was one of more than 200 domestic and foreign officials on the White House Lawn that day taking it all in. The guest list included members of Congress, embassy staff, religious leaders, and people like himself who worked behind the scenes – a cross section of people who had been part of a long history of relationship building and peacemaking in the Middle East for many years. Jason Isaacson: To see what was happening then this meeting of neighbors who could be friends. To see the warmth evident on that stage at the South Lawn of the White House, and then the conversations that were taking place in this vast assembly on the South Lawn. Converging at that moment to mark the beginning of a development of a new Middle East. It was an exciting moment for me and for AJC and one that not only will I never forget but one that I am looking forward to reliving. Manya Brachear Pashman: Jason, of course, is talking about his confidence in the expansion of the Abraham Accords. Through his position at AJC he has attended several White House events marking milestones in the peace process. He had been seated on the South Lawn of the White House 27 years earlier to watch a similar scene unfold -- when Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestinian Leader Yasser Arafat met to sign the Oslo Accords with President Bill Clinton. Yitzhak Rabin: What we are doing today is more than signing an agreement. It is a revolution. Yesterday, a dream. Today, a commitment. The Israeli and the Palestinian peoples who fought each other for almost a century have agreed to move decisively on the path of dialogue, understanding, and cooperation. Manya Brachear Pashman: Brokered secretly by Norway, the Oslo Accords established mutual recognition between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, which claimed to represent the Palestinian people. It also led to the creation of a Palestinian Authority for interim self-government and a phased Israeli withdrawal from parts of the West Bank and Gaza.  Jason Isaacson: I mean, 1993 was a tremendous breakthrough, and it was a breakthrough between the State of Israel and an organization that had been created to destroy Israel. And so it was a huge breakthrough to see the Israeli and Palestinian leaders agree to a process that would revolutionize that relationship, normalize that relationship, and set aside a very ugly history and chart a new path that was historic. Manya Brachear Pashman: While the Oslo Accords moved the Israelis and Palestinians toward a resolution, progress came to a halt two years later with the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin. In July 2000, President Clinton brought Arafat and then Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak to Camp David to continue discussions, but they could not agree.  In his autobiography, "My Life," President Clinton wrote that Arafat walked away from a Palestinian state, a mistake that Clinton took personally. When Arafat called him a great man, Clinton responded "I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you made me one." Arafat's decision also would prove fatal for both Israelis and Palestinians. By September, the Second Intifada – five years of violence, terror attacks, and suicide bombings – derailed any efforts toward peace. Jason says the Abraham Accords have more staying power than the Oslo Accords. That's clear five years later, especially after the October 7 Hamas terror attacks sparked a prolonged war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. Two years into the war, the Abraham Accords have held. But Jason recalls feeling optimistic, even as he sat there again on the South Lawn. Jason Isaacson: It's a different kind of historic moment, maybe a little less breathtaking in the idea of two fierce antagonists, sort of laying down their arms and shaking hands uneasily, but shaking hands. Uneasily, but shaking hands. All those years later, in 2020, you had a state of Israel that had no history of conflict with the UAE or Bahrain. Countries with, with real economies, with real investment potential, with wise and well-advised leaders who would be in a position to implement plans that were being put together in the summer and fall of 2020. The Oslo Accords, you know, didn't provide that kind of built in infrastructure to advance peace. Manya Brachear Pashman: Jason pointed out that the only source of conflict among the signatories on the Abraham Accords was actually a point of mutual agreement – a frustration and desire to resolve the conflict with the Palestinians. UAE and Bahrain were part of the League of Arab States that had sworn in 2002 not to advance relations with Israel in the absence of a two-state solution.  But 18 years later, that had gone nowhere and leaders recognized that perhaps it would be more beneficial to the Palestinian cause if they at least engaged with Israel. Jason Isaacson: I had no fear, sitting in a folding chair on the White House Lawn on September 15, that this was going to evaporate. This seemed to be a natural progression. The region is increasingly sophisticated and increasingly plugged into the world, and recognizing that they have a lot of catching up to do to advance the welfare of their people. And that that catching up is going to require integrating with a very advanced country in their region that they have shunned for too long. This is a recognition that I am hearing across the region, not always spoken in those words, but it's clear that it will be of benefit to the region, to have Israel as a partner, rather than an isolated island that somehow is not a part of that region. Donald Trump: I want to thank all of the members of Congress for being here … Manya Brachear Pashman: AJC CEO Ted Deutch also was at the White House that day, not as AJC CEO but as a Congressman who served on the House Committee on Foreign Affairs and chaired its Subcommittee on the Middle East, North Africa and Global Counterterrorism. Ted Deutch: It was a beautiful day and there was this coming together, this recognition that this was such an historic moment and it's exactly the kind of thing, frankly, that  I remember having watched previously, when there were peace agreements signed and thinking that's something that I want to be a part of. And there I was looking around right in the middle of all of this, and so excited about where this could lead. Manya Brachear Pashman: Despite his congressional role, Ted learned about the deal along with the rest of the world when it was initially announced a month before the ceremony, though he did get a tip that something was in the pipeline that would change the course of the committee's work. Ted Deutch: I found out when I got a phone call from the Trump administration, someone who was a senior official who told me that there is big news that's coming, that the Middle East is never going to look the same, and that he couldn't share any other information. And we, of course, went into wild speculation mode about what that could be. And the Abraham Accords was the announcement, and it was as dramatic as he suggested. Manya Brachear Pashman: It was a small glimmer of light during an otherwise dark time. Remember, this was the summer and early fall of 2020. The COVID pandemic, for the most part, had shut down the world. People were not attending meetings, conferences, or parties. Even members of Congress were avoiding Capitol Hill and casting their votes from home. Ted Deutch: It was hard to make great strides in anything in the diplomatic field, because there weren't the kind of personal interactions taking place on a regular basis. It didn't have the atmosphere that was conducive to meaningful, deep, ongoing conversations about the future of the world. And that's really what this was about, and that's what was missing. And so here was this huge news that for the rest of the world, felt like it was out of the blue, that set in motion a whole series of steps in Congress about the way that our committee, the way we approach the region. That we could finally start talking about regional cooperation in ways that we couldn't before. Manya Brachear Pashman: The timing was especially auspicious as it boosted interest in a particular piece of legislation that had been in the works for a decade: the bipartisan Nita M. Lowey Middle East Partnership for Peace Act. Approved by Congress in December 2020, around the same time Morocco joined the Abraham Accords, the law allocated up to $250 million over five years for programs advancing peaceful coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians and supporting a sustainable two-state solution. Passed as part of a larger appropriations bill, it was the largest investment of any single country in Israeli-Palestinian civil society initiatives. Ted Deutch: Here we were having this conversation about increasing trade and increasing tourism and the countries working more closely together and being able to freely fly back and forth on a regular basis – something that we've seen as the tourism numbers have taken off. The trade has taken off. So it really changed what we do. Manya Brachear Pashman: The other thing Ted recalls about that day on the White House lawn was the bipartisan spirit in the air. Although his own committee didn't tend to divide along party lines, Congress had become quite polarized and partisan on just about everything else. On that day, just as there was no animus between Israelis and Arabs, there was none between Republicans and Democrats either. And Ted believes that's the way it always should be. Ted Deutch: It was a bipartisan stellium of support, because this was a really important moment for the region and for the world, and it's exactly the kind of moment where we should look for ways to work together. This issue had to do with the Middle East, but it was driven out of Washington. There's no doubt about that. It was driven out of the out of the Trump administration and the White House and that was, I think, a reminder of the kind of things that can happen in Washington, and that we need to always look for those opportunities and when any administration does the right thing, then they need to be given credit for it, whether elected officials are on the same side of the aisle or not. We were there as people who were committed to building a more peaceful and prosperous region, with all of the countries in the region, recognizing the contributions that Israel makes and can make as the region has expanded, and then thinking about all of the chances that we would have in the years ahead to build upon this in really positive ways. Manya Brachear Pashman: On that warm September day, it felt as if the Abraham Accords not only had the potential to heal a rift in the Middle East but also teach us some lessons here at home. Even if it was impossible to resolve every disagreement, the Abraham Accords proved that progress and peace are possible when there are shared strategic interests, relationships, and a shared concern for the greater good.   Ted Deutch: I hope that as we celebrate this 5th anniversary, that in this instance we allow ourselves to do just that. I mean, this is a celebratory moment, and I hope that we can leave politics out of this. And I hope that we're able to just spend a moment thinking about what's been achieved during these five years, and how much all of us, by working together, will be able to achieve, not just for Israel, but for the region, in the best interest of the United States and in so doing, ultimately, for the world. That's what this moment offers. Manya Brachear Pashman: In the next episode, we meet Israelis and Arabs who embraced the spirit of the Abraham Accords and seized unprecedented opportunities to collaborate. Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace.  The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC.  You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us.

Tune into the second episode of AJC's newest limited podcast series, Architects of Peace. Go behind the scenes of the decades-long diplomacy and quiet negotiations that made the Abraham Accords possible, bringing Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and later Morocco, together in historic peace agreements.  Former U.S. Ambassador to Israel David Friedman, U.S. Army General Miguel Correa, and AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson unpack the first Trump administration's Middle East strategy, share behind-the-scenes efforts to engage key regional players, and reveal what unfolded inside the White House in the crucial weeks before the Abraham Accords signing. Full transcript: https://www.ajc.org/news/podcast/behind-the-breakthrough-architects-of-peace-episode-2 Resources: AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. AJC.org/AbrahamAccords - The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: AJC.org/ForgottenExodus AJC.org/PeopleofthePod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: Donald Trump: I think we're going to make a deal. It might be a bigger and better deal than people in this room even understand. Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years – decades – in the making: landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords -- normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf states, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain. Later, in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs. Introducing: the Architects of Peace. Shortly after he was elected in 2016 and before he took office, President Donald Trump nominated his company's former bankruptcy attorney David Friedman to serve as U.S. Ambassador to Israel. He gave Friedman two simple tasks.  Task No. 1? Build peace across the Middle East by normalizing relations between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Task No. 2? Solve the Israeli Palestinian conflict that a half dozen previous White House residents had failed to fix.  After all, according to conventional wisdom, the first task could not happen before the second. The future of cooperation between Israel and 20-plus other Arab countries hinged on peace between the Israelis and Palestinians.  Here's former Secretary of State John Kerry. John Kerry: There will be no advance and separate peace with the Arab world without the Palestinian process and Palestinian peace. Everybody needs to understand that. Manya Brachear Pashman: Ambassador Friedman disagreed with this conventional wisdom. David Friedman: We were told initially by most countries that the road to peace began with the Palestinians. This was a hypothesis that I rejected internally, but I thought: 'OK, well, let's just play this out and see where this can go. And so, we spent a couple of years really working on what could be a plan that would work for Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians, you know, rejected discussions early on, but we had a lot of discussions with the Israelis. Manya Brachear Pashman: The son of a rabbi who grew up in Long Island, Ambassador Friedman had been active in pro-Israel organizations for decades, He had advised Trump on the importance of the U.S.-Israel bond during the 2016 presidential election and recommended nothing less than a radical overhaul of White House policy in the region. Not long after his Senate confirmation as ambassador, that overhaul commenced. In February 2017, President Trump invited Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to the White House – his first invitation to a foreign leader —  and a symbolic one. After their meeting, they held a joint press conference. Donald Trump: With this visit, the United States again reaffirms our unbreakable bond with our cherished ally Israel. The partnership between our two countries, built on our shared values. I think we're going to make a deal. It might be a bigger and better deal than people in this room even understand. That's a possibility. So, let's see what we do.  He doesn't sound too optimistic. But he's a good negotiator. Benjamin Netanyahu: That's the art of the deal. Manya Brachear Pashman: Nine months later, President Trump made another symbolic gesture -- recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital city and moving the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. Though such a move had been approved by Congress in 1995, no president had ever acted upon it. When Trump's son-in-law, businessman, and senior White House advisor Jared Kushner opened conversations about that 'bigger and better deal,' Palestinians refused to participate, using the pretext of the Jerusalem decision to boycott the Trump administration. But that didn't stop Ambassador Friedman and others from engaging, not only with Israel, but with Arab countries about a new path forward. AJC's Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson, who has been building bridges in the region since the early '90s, recalls this strategy at the time. Jason Isaacson: It was very clear for many months, 2019 on into early 2020, that there was a team working under Jared Kushner in the White House that was going from country to country in the Gulf and North Africa, looking to make a deal, looking to make deals that would lead to normalization with Israel, would involve various benefits that the United States would be able to provide. But of course, the big benefit would be regional integration and a closer relationship with the United States. Manya Brachear Pashman: The pitch for a new path forward resonated in the United Arab Emirates, a Gulf country of 10 million residents, some 11% of whom are Emiratis — the rest expats and migrants from around the world. The UAE had designated 2019 the Year of Tolerance, an initiative aimed at promoting the country as a global capital for tolerance and respect between diverse cultures and nationalities. That year, the Emirates hosted a historic visit from Pope Francis, and 27 Israeli athletes competed in the 2019 Special Olympics World Games held in the capital city of Abu Dhabi.  The pitch also resonated in Bahrain. In June of that year, during a two-day workshop in Bahrain's capital city of Manama, the Trump administration began rolling out the results of its Middle East tour – the economic portion of its peace plan, titled "Peace to Prosperity." Jason Isaacson: The White House plan for Peace to Prosperity was a kind of an early set of ideas for Israeli Palestinian resolution that would result in a small, but functional Palestinian state, created in a way that would not require the displacement of Israelis in the West Bank, and that would involve large scale investment, mostly provided by other countries, mostly in the Gulf, but not only, also Europe, to advance the Palestinian economy, to integrate the Palestinian and Israelis' economies in a way that had never happened. And there was discussion that was taking place that all led up to the idea of a very fresh approach, a very new approach to the regional conflict. Manya Brachear Pashman: The 38-page prospectus set ambitious goals — turning the West Bank and Gaza into tourism destinations, doubling the amount of drinkable water there, tripling exports, earmarking $900 million to build hospitals and clinics. The Palestinians, angered by Trump's recognition of Jerusalem and viewing the Manama workshop as an attempt to normalize Arab-Israel ties while sidelining their national rights, boycotted the meeting and rejected the plan before ever seeing its details.  But the workshop's host Bahrain, as well as Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the Emirates participated, to varying degrees. Trump's team rolled out the rest of the plan in January 2020, including a map of land carved out for Palestinians and for Israel. The plan enabled Palestinians and Arab countries to expand economic opportunities. It enabled Israel to demonstrate that it was open to cooperation. It enabled the Trump administration to illustrate the opportunities missed if countries in the region continued to let Palestinian leadership call the shots. David Friedman: The expectation was not that the Palestinians would jump all over it. We were realistic about the possibility, but we did think it was important to show that Israel itself, under some circumstances, was willing to engage with the Palestinians with regard to a formula for peace that, you know, had an economic component, a geographic component, a governance component.  Manya Brachear Pashman: The Palestine Liberation Organization accused the United States of trying to sell a "mirage of economic prosperity." Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh criticized the Arab leaders attending the al-Manama conference, saying "The (Palestinian) people, who have been fighting for 100 years, did not commission anyone to concede or to bargain." But that's the thing. Arab leaders weren't there solely on behalf of the Palestinians. They wanted to learn how their own countries' citizens could enjoy peace and prosperity too. David Friedman: The real point of all this that got the Abraham Accords jump started was not the fact that the Palestinians embraced this, but more so that they rejected it in such a way that enabled these other countries to say: 'Look, guys, you know what? We can't be more pro-Palestinian than you.' Here you have, you know, the U.S. government putting on a table a proposal that gets you more than halfway there in terms of your stated goals and aspirations. Maybe you don't like all of it, that's fine, but you're never going to get everything you wanted anyway. And here's the first government in history that's willing to give you something tangible to talk about, and if you're not going to engage in something that they spent years working on, talking to everybody, trying to thread the needle as best they could. If you're not willing to talk to them about it, then don't ask us to fight your fight. There's only so far we can go. But we thought that putting this plan out on a table publicly would kind of smoke out a lot of positions that had historically been below the surface. And so, beginning right after the 28th of January of 2020 when we had that ceremony with the President's vision for peace, we began to really get serious engagement. Not from the Palestinians, who rejected it immediately, but from the countries in the region. And so that's how the Abraham Accords discussions really began in earnest. Manya Brachear Pashman: AJC had been saying for years that if Arab leaders truly wanted to foster stability in the region and help the Palestinians, engaging with Israel and opening channels of communication would give them the leverage to do so. Isolating Israel was not the answer. Nothing underscored that more than the COVID-19 pandemic, the worst global health crisis in a century. As everyone around the world donned N95 masks and went into self-imposed isolation, some governments in the Middle East concluded that isolating innovative countries like Israel was perhaps not the wisest or safest choice.  In May 2020, UAE Ambassador to the United Nations Lana Nusseibeh said as much during a virtual webinar hosted by AJC. Lana Nusseibeh: Of course, we've had Israeli medics participate in previous events in the UAE, that wouldn't be unusual. And I'm sure there's a lot of scope for collaboration. I don't think we would be opposed to it. Because I really think this public health space should be an unpoliticized space where we all try and pool our collective knowledge of this virus. Manya Brachear Pashman: A month later, UAE Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Dr. Anwar Gargash echoed that sentiment, during AJC Global Forum. Anwar Gargash: I think we can come to a point where we come to a given Israeli government and we say we disagree with you on this, we don't think it's a good idea. But at the same time there are areas, such as COVID, technology, and other things that we can actually work on together. Manya Brachear Pashman: Not surprisingly, the UAE was the first Arab country to begin negotiating with the White House to normalize relations with Israel. However, talks that summer hit a stalemate. Israel was moving forward with a plan to annex a significant portion of the West Bank, including Israeli settlements and the Jordan Valley. Even though President Trump himself had cautioned Prime Minister Netanyahu to hold off, Ambassador Friedman was not about to stop them.  David Friedman: I thought that the idea of Israel walking away from its biblical heartland. Anything that required Israel to make that commitment was something I couldn't support. I was so dead set against it. Israel cannot, as a price for normalization, as great as it is, as important as it is, Israel cannot agree to cede its biblical heartland. Manya Brachear Pashman: Not only was this personal for Ambassador Friedman, it was also a major incentive for Israel, included in the Peace to Prosperity plan. The ambassador didn't want to go back on his word and lose Israel's trust.  But annexation was a dealbreaker for the Emirates. In June, UAE's Ambassador to the U.S. Yousef Al Otaiba wrote a column speaking directly to the Israeli public. He explained that the UAE wanted diplomatic relations with Israel – it really did – but unilateral annexation of land that it considered still in dispute would be viewed as a breach of trust and undermine any and all progress toward normalization.  David Friedman: It was a kind of a tumultuous period, both internally within our own team and with others, about what exactly was going to happen as a result of that Peace to Prosperity Plan. And even if there was an agreement by the United States to support Israeli annexation, was this something that was better, at least in the short term? Manya Brachear Pashman: Otaiba's message got through, and the team ultimately agreed to suspend the annexation plan — not halt, but suspend — an intentionally temporary verb.  In addition to writing the column, Otaiba also recommended that a friend join the negotiations to help repair the trust deficit: General Miguel Correa, a U.S. Army General who had spent part of his childhood in the Middle East, served in the Persian Gulf War and as a peacekeeper maintaining the treaty between Israel and Egypt. General Correa had joined the National Security Council in March 2020 after serving as a defense attaché in Abu Dhabi. He had earned the respect of Emiratis, not as a dealmaker so much as a lifesaver, once orchestrating a secret rescue mission of wounded Emirati troops from inside Yemen. Among those troops, the nephew and son-in-law of Crown Prince Mohamed bin Zayed, the then-de facto ruler and now the current president of the UAE. Kushner and Friedman had never met Correa.  Miguel Correa: I didn't know them, and they didn't know me. No one else had any military experience on the team. I had a unique perspective of the Arab side of the equation.  And had relationships. So, it was a match made in heaven.  Jared, David Friedman, these guys obviously understood Israeli politics and understood the Israeli side, and somewhat Jewish American side. I could provide a different dynamic or a different view from the Arab side, as someone who's kind of grown up with this. It really got serious when the team came together and, and we could start working on real, concrete things. Manya Brachear Pashman: Months of negotiations had already unfolded. It was already late July, first of August, when General Correa became the last person to join the tiny circle of a half dozen negotiators – kept intentionally small to keep a lid on the conversations. It's hard to keep a secret in Washington. David Friedman: The secrecy here was very, very important, because to be honest with you, I think anything bigger than that group of six or seven, we would have put it in jeopardy. Manya Brachear Pashman: In this situation, leaks not only threatened the deal, they could threaten lives. Though word trickled out that a deal was in the works, no one guessed just how transformational the result might be. In General Correa's opinion, the UAE had the most to lose. Miguel Correa: That was the concern that, frankly, guys like me had, that, I hurt a nation of good people that is incredibly tolerant, that builds synagogues and churches and Sikh temples, or Hindu temples, and tolerance 101, that everybody can pray to who they would like to pray to.  And I was worried that all these extremists were going to come out of the woodwork and hurt that trajectory in the UAE, that was going to be a great nation with or without the normalization. But this ruler said: 'No, no, it's the right thing to do. Peace is the right thing to do.' Manya Brachear Pashman: General Correa actually had quite a few concerns. He didn't want the negotiations to be hijacked for political gain. He wanted leaders to have a security and public relations response in place before anything was announced. And the agreement? It lacked a name. Miguel Correa: A lot of it has to do with my military side. We love to name cool task forces, and things like that. And then I felt like: 'Hey, it has to be something that rolls off the tongue, that makes sense and that will help it, you know, with staying power. Let's do something that ties the people together. There was going to be a shock, a tectonic shock that was going to occur. From 1948, we're going to do a complete 180, and wow. So what do we do to take the wind away from the extremists? As a guy who's fought extremism, militant extremism, for most of his military career, I figured, hey, we've got to do what we can to frame this in a super positive manner. Manya Brachear Pashman: To the general's dismay, no one else shared his concern about what to call their project. A lot was happening in those last few weeks. Landing on a name – not a priority. On the morning of August 13, once all the details were hammered out, the team sat in the Oval Office waiting to brief the President before it was announced to the world. David Friedman: It came about 10 minutes before the end, we were all sitting around the Oval Office, waiting for this announcement about the UAE. And somebody, not me, said: 'Well, we need a name for this,' and I said, why? And they said, 'Well, you know, you have the Oslo Accords, you have the Camp David Accords. You need a name.' And I said, you know, Who's got an idea? And General Miguel Correa, he said: 'How about the Abraham Accords?' And I said: 'That's a great name.' And then we had a rush to call the Israelis and the Emiratis to make sure they were OK with it.  Five minutes later we're broadcasting to a few hundred million people this groundbreaking announcement. And the President looks at me and says, 'David, explain why you chose the Abraham Accords?' So that was when we explained what the name was, which I hadn't really thought of until that point. We just thought it was a good name.  So at that point I said, 'Well, you know, Abraham was the father of three great religions. He's referred to as Abraham in English, and Ibrahim in Arabic, and Avraham in Hebrew. And no single individual better exemplifies the opportunity and the benefits of unity among all peoples than Abraham.' And that was sort of on the fly how we got to the Abraham Accords. Manya Brachear Pashman: General Correa said he chose a name that would remind people of all faiths that what they have in common far outweighs what separates them. It was also important that the name be plural. Not the Abraham Accord. The Abraham Accords.  Even if only one country – the UAE – was signing on at that moment, there would be more to come. Indeed, Bahrain came on board within a month. Morocco joined in December.  Miguel Correa: I felt in my heart that this has to be more than one. As a guy that's been affected by this extremism and it allowed this, this craziness and that people decide who can get to know who and and I felt like, No, we can't allow this to be a one-shot deal. We have to prove that this is an avalanche. This could be sustained, and this is the way it should be. Everyone has to come into this one way or another. And it's not, by the way, saying that, hey, we're all going to walk lockstep with Israel. That's not the point. The point is that you have a conversation, the leaders can pick up the phone and have that conversation. So it has to be, has to be plural. By the way, this is the way that it was. This isn't new. This isn't like a crazy new concept. This is the way it was. It's not an introduction of Jews in this region, in society. This is a reintroduction. This is the way it's supposed to be. This is what's happened for thousands of years. So why are we allowing people to take us back, you know, thousands of years? Let's go back to the way things should be, and develop these relationships. It makes us all better. Manya Brachear Pashman: Next episode, we step out from behind the scenes and on to the South Lawn of the White House where leaders from the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Israel and the U.S. signed the Abraham Accords, while the world watched in awe. Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace.  The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC.  You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland Frontiers: ID: 183925100; Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI); Composer: Pete Checkley (BMI) Meditative: ID: 115666358; Composer: DANIELYAN ASHOT MAKICHEVICH (IPI NAME #00855552512), UNITED STATES BMI Arabian: Item ID: 214336423; Composer: MusicForVideos Arabian Strings: ID: 72249988; Publisher: EITAN EPSTEIN; Composer: EITAN EPSTEIN Desert: Item ID: 220137401; Publisher: BFCMUSIC PROD.; Composer: Andrei Marchanka Middle East Violin: ID: 277189507; Composer: Andy Warner Arabic Ambient: ID: 186923328; Publisher: Victor Romanov; Composer: Victor Romanov Oriental: Item ID: 190860465; Publisher: Victor Romanov; Composer: Victor Romanov Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher    

Listen to the first episode of AJC's new limited podcast series, Architects of Peace. Go behind the scenes of the decades-long diplomacy and quiet negotiations that made the Abraham Accords possible, bringing Israel, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and later Morocco, together in historic peace agreements.   Jason Isaacson, AJC Chief of Policy and Political Affairs, explains the complex Middle East landscape before the Accords and how behind-the-scenes efforts helped foster the dialogue that continues to shape the region today. Resources: Episode Transcript AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace - Tune in weekly for new episodes. The Abraham Accords, Explained AJC.org/CNME - Find more on AJC's Center for a New Middle East Listen – AJC Podcasts: The Forgotten Exodus People of the Pod Follow Architects of Peace on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript: Jason Isaacson: It has become clear to me in my travels in the region over the decades that more and more people across the Arab world understood the game, and they knew that this false narrative – that Jews are not legitimately there, and that somehow we have to focus all of our energy in the Arab world on combating this evil interloper – it's nonsense. And it's becoming increasingly clear that, in fact, Israel can be a partner. Manya Brachear Pashman: In September 2020, the world saw what had been years – decades – in the making: landmark peace agreements dubbed the Abraham Accords -- normalizing relations between Israel and two Arabian Gulf states, the United Arab Emirates and the Kingdom of Bahrain.  Later in December, they were joined by the Kingdom of Morocco. Five years later, AJC is pulling back the curtain to meet key individuals who built the trust that led to these breakthroughs. Introducing: the Architects of Peace. Manya Brachear Pashman: On the eve of the signing of the Abraham Accords, AJC Chief Policy and Political Affairs Officer Jason Isaacson found himself traveling to the end of a tree filled winding road in McLean, Virginia, to sip tea on the back terrace with Bahraini Ambassador Shaikh Abdulla bin Rashid Al Khalifa and Bahrain's Minister of Foreign Affairs Dr. Abdullatif bin Rashid Al Zayani. Jason Isaacson: Sitting in the backyard of the Bahraini ambassador's house with Dr. Al Zayani, the Foreign Minister of Bahrain and with Shaikh Abdulla, the ambassador, and hearing what was about to happen the next day on the South Lawn of the White House was a thrilling moment. And really, in many ways, just a validation of the work that AJC has been doing for many years–before I came to the organization, and the time that I've spent with AJC since the early 90s.  This possibility of Israel's true integration in the region, Israel's cooperation and peace with its neighbors, with all of its neighbors – this was clearly the threshold that we were standing on. Manya Brachear Pashman: If you're wondering how Jason ended up sipping tea in such esteemed company the night before his hosts made history, wonder no more. Here's the story. Yitzchak Shamir: The people of Israel look to this palace with great anticipation and expectation. We pray that this meeting will mark the beginning of a new chapter in the history of the Middle East; that it will signal the end of hostility, violence, terror, and war; that it will bring dialogue, accommodation, co-existence, and above all, peace. Manya Brachear Pashman: That was Israel's Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir speaking in October 1991 at the historic Madrid Peace Conference -- the first time Israel and Arab delegations engaged in direct talks toward peace. It had taken 43 years to reach this point – 43 years since the historic United Nations Resolution that created separate Jewish and Arab states – a resolution Jewish leaders accepted, but Arab states scorned. Not even 24 hours after Israel declared its independence on May 14, 1948, the armies of Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria attacked the new Jewish state, which fought back mightily and expanded its territory. The result? A deep-seated distrust among Israel, its neighboring nations, and some of the Arab residents living within Israel's newly formed borders. Though many Palestinian Arabs stayed, comprising over 20 percent of Israel's population today, hundreds of thousands of others left or were displaced. Meanwhile, in reaction to the rebirth of the Jewish state, and over the following two decades, Jewish communities long established in Arab states faced hardship and attacks, forcing Jews by the hundreds of thousands to flee. Israel's War of Independence set off a series of wars with neighboring nations, terrorist attacks, and massacres. Peace in the region saw more than a few false starts, with one rare exception.  In 1979, after the historic visit to Israel by Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, he and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin joined President Jimmy Carter for negotiations at Camp David and signed a peace treaty that for the next 15 years, remained the only formal agreement between Israel and an Arab state. In fact, it was denounced uniformly across the Arab world.  But 1991 introduced dramatic geopolitical shifts. The collapse of the Soviet Union, which had severed relations with Israel during the Six-Day War of 1967, diminished its ability to back Syria, Iraq, and Libya. In the USSR's final months, it re-established diplomatic relations with Israel but left behind a regional power vacuum that extremists started to fill. Meanwhile, most Arab states, including Syria, joined the successful U.S.-led coalition against Saddam Hussein that liberated Kuwait, solidifying American supremacy in the region and around the world. The Palestine Liberation Organization, which claimed to represent the world's Palestinians, supported Iraq and Libya.  Seizing an opportunity, the U.S. and the enfeebled but still relevant Soviet Union invited to Madrid a joint Jordanian-Palestinian delegation, along with delegations from Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Israel. Just four months before that Madrid meeting, Jason Isaacson had left his job on Capitol Hill to work for the American Jewish Committee. At that time, AJC published a magazine titled Commentary, enabling Jason to travel to the historic summit with media credentials and hang out with the press pool. Jason Isaacson: It was very clear in just normal conversations with these young Arab journalists who I was spending some time with, that there was the possibility of an openness that I had not realized existed. There was a possibility of kind of a sense of common concerns about the region, that was kind of refreshing and was sort of running counter to the narratives that have dominated conversations in that part of the world for so long.  And it gave me the sense that by expanding the circle of relationships that I was just starting with in Madrid, we might be able to make some progress. We might be able to find some partners with whom AJC could develop a real relationship. Manya Brachear Pashman: AJC had already begun to build ties in the region in the 1950s, visiting Arab countries like Morocco and Tunisia, which had sizable Jewish populations. The rise in Arab nationalism in Tunisia and rebirth of Israel eventually led to an exodus that depleted the Jewish community there. Emigration depleted Morocco's Jewish community as well.  Jason Isaacson: To say that somehow this is not the native land of the Jewish people is just flying in the face of the reality. And yet, that was the propaganda line that was pushed out across the region. Of course, Madrid opened a lot of people's eyes. But that wasn't enough. More had to be done. There were very serious efforts made by the U.S. government, Israeli diplomats, Israeli businesspeople, and my organization, which played a very active role in trying to introduce people to the reality that they would benefit from this relationship with Israel.  So it was pushing back against decades of propaganda and lies. And that was one of the roles that we assigned to ourselves and have continued to play. Manya Brachear Pashman: No real negotiations took place at the Madrid Conference, rather it opened conversations that unfolded in Moscow, in Washington, and behind closed doors in secret locations around the world. Progress quickened under Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. In addition to a peace treaty between Israel and Jordan, reached in 1994, secret talks in Norway between Israel and PLO resulted in the Oslo Accords, a series of agreements signed in 1993 and 1995 that ended the First Intifada after six years of violence, and laid out a five-year timeline for achieving a two-state solution. Extremists tried to derail the process. A Jewish extremist assassinated Rabin in 1995. And a new terror group  launched a series of suicide attacks against Israeli civilians. Formed during the First Intifada, these terrorists became stars of the Second. They called themselves Hamas. AP News Report: [sirens] [in Hebrew] Don't linger, don't linger. Manya Brachear Pashman: On March 27, 2002, Hamas sent a suicide bomber into an Israeli hotel where 250 guests had just been seated for a Passover Seder. He killed 30 people and injured 140 more. The day after the deadliest suicide attack in Israel's history, the Arab League, a coalition of 22 Arab nations in the Middle East and Africa, unveiled what it called the Arab Peace Initiative – a road map offering wide scale normalization of relations with Israel, but with an ultimatum: No expansion of Arab-Israeli relations until the establishment of a Palestinian state within the pre-1967 armistice lines and a so-called right of return for Palestinians who left and their descendants.   As the Second Intifada continued to take civilian lives, the Israeli army soon launched Operation Defensive Shield to secure the West Bank and parts of Gaza. It was a period of high tension, conflict, and distrust. But behind the scenes, Jason and AJC were forging ahead, building bridges, and encountering an openness in Arab capitals that belied the ultimatum.  Jason Isaacson: It has become clear to me in my travels in the region over the decades that more and more people across the Arab world understood the game, and they knew that that this false narrative that Jews are not legitimately there, and that somehow we have to focus all of our energy in the Arab world on combating this evil interloper – it's nonsense. And it's becoming increasingly clear that, in fact, Israel can be a partner of Arab countries. Manya Brachear Pashman: Jason led delegations of Jewish leaders to Arab capitals, oversaw visits by Arab leaders to Israel, and cultivated relationships of strategic and political consequence with governments and civil society leaders across North Africa, the Levant, and the Arabian Peninsula. In 2009, King Mohammed VI of Morocco bestowed on him the honor of Chevalier of the Order of the Throne of the Kingdom of Morocco. Jason's priority was nurturing one key element missing from Arab-Israeli relations. An element that for decades had been absent in most Middle East peace negotiations: trust.   Jason Isaacson: Nothing is more important than developing trust. Trust and goodwill are, if not synonymous, are so closely linked. Yes, a lot of these discussions that AJC's been engaged in over many years have been all about, not only developing a set of contacts we can turn to when there's a crisis or when we need answers to questions or when we need to pass a message along to a government. But also, develop a sense that we all want the same thing and we trust each other. That if someone is prepared to take certain risks to advance the prospect of peace, which will involve risk, which will involve vulnerability. That a neighbor who might have demonstrated in not-so-distant past animosity and hostility toward Israel can be trusted to take a different course. Manya Brachear Pashman: A number of Israeli diplomats and businesspeople also worked toward that goal. While certain diplomatic channels in the intelligence and security spheres stayed open out of necessity – other diplomats and businesspeople with dual citizenship traveled across the region, quietly breaking down barriers, starting conversations, and building trust.  Jason Isaacson: I would run into people in Arab capitals from time to time, who were fulfilling that function, and traveling with different passports that they had legitimately, because they were from those countries. It was just a handful of people in governments that would necessarily know that they were there. So yes, if that sounds like cloak and dagger, it's kind of a cloak and dagger operation, a way for people to maintain a relationship and build a relationship until the society is ready to accept the reality that it will be in their country's best interest to have that relationship. Manya Brachear Pashman: Privately, behind the scenes, signs emerged that some Arab leaders understood the role that Jews have played in the region's history for millennia and the possibilities that would exist if Muslims and Jews could restore some of the faith and friendship of bygone years.  Jason Isaacson: I remember sitting with King Mohammed the VI of Morocco just weeks after his ascension to the throne, so going back more than a quarter century, and hearing him talk with me and AJC colleagues about the 600,000 subjects that he had in Israel. Of course, these were Jews, Israelis of Moroccan descent, who are in the hundreds of thousands. But the sense that these countries really have a common history. Manya Brachear Pashman: Common history, yes. Common goals, too. And not for nothing, a common enemy. The same extremist forces that have been bent on Israel's destruction have not only disrupted Israeli-Arab peace, they've prevented the Palestinian people from thriving in a state of their own and now threaten the security and stability of the entire region. Jason Isaacson:  We are hopeful that in partnership with those in the Arab world who feel the same way about the need to push back against extremism, including the extremism promoted, promulgated, funded, armed by the Islamic Republic of Iran, that we can have enough of a network of supportive players in the Arab world, in the West. Working with Israel and working with Palestinian partners who are interested in the same future. A real future, a politically free future, where we can actually make some progress. And that's an ongoing effort. This is a point that we made consistently over many years: if you want to help the Palestinian people–and we want to help the Palestinian people–but if you, fill in the blank Arab government official, your country wants to help the Palestinian people, you're not helping them by pretending that Israel doesn't exist.  You're not helping them by isolating Israel, by making Israel a pariah in the minds of your people. You will actually have leverage with Israel, and you'll help the Palestinians when they're sitting at a negotiating table across from the Israelis. If you engage Israel, if you have access to the Israeli officials and they have a stake in your being on their side on certain things and working together on certain common issues. Manya Brachear Pashman: Jason says more and more Arab leaders are realizing, with some frustration, that isolating Israel is a losing proposition for all the parties involved. It has not helped the Palestinian people. It has not kept extremism at bay. And it has not helped their own countries and their own citizens prosper. In fact, the limitations that isolating Israel imposes have caused many countries to lag behind the tiny Jewish state. Jason Isaacson: I think there was just this sense of how far back we have fallen, how much ground we have to make up. We need to break out of the old mindset and try something different. But that before the Abraham Accords, they were saying it in the years leading up to the Abraham Accords, with increasing frustration for the failure of Palestinian leadership to seize opportunities that had been held out to them. But frankly, also contributing, I think, to this was this insistence on isolating themselves from a naturally synergistic relationship with a neighboring state right next door that could contribute to the welfare of their societies. It just didn't make a whole lot of sense, and it denied them the ability to move forward. Manya Brachear Pashman: Jason remembers the first time he heard an Arab official utter the words out loud – expressing a willingness, daresay desire, to partner with Israel. Jason Isaacson: It took a long time, but I could see in 2016, 17, 18, 19, this growing awareness, and finally hearing it actually spoken out loud in one particular conference that I remember going to in 2018 in Bahrain, by a senior official from an Arab country. It took a long time for that lesson to penetrate, but it's absolutely the case. Manya Brachear Pashman: In 2019, Bahrain hosted an economic summit where the Trump administration presented its "Peace to Prosperity" plan, a $50 billion investment proposal to create jobs and improve the lives of Palestinians while also promoting regional peace and security. Palestinians rejected the plan outright and refused to attend. Bahrain invited Israeli media to cover the summit. That September, on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, AJC presented its inaugural Architect of Peace Award to the Kingdom of Bahrain's chief diplomat for nearly 20 years. Shaikh Khalid bin Ahmed Al Khalifa, Bahrain's Minister of Foreign Affairs at the time, told Jason that it was important to learn the lessons of the late Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and late Jordanian King Hussein, both of whom signed peace treaties with Israel. He also explained the reason why Bahrain invited Israeli media.  Shaikh Khalid bin Ahmed Al Khalifa: President Anwar Sadat did it, he broke a huge barrier. He was a man of war, he was the leader of a country that went to war or two with Israel. But then he knew that at the right moment he would want to go straight to Israeli and talk to them. We fulfilled also something that we've always wanted to do, we've discussed it many times: talking to the Israeli public through the Israeli media.  Why not talk to the people? They wake up every day, they have their breakfast watching their own TV channels, they read their own papers, they read their own media, they form their own opinion.    Absolutely nobody should shy away from talking to the media. We are trying to get our point across. In order to convince. How will you do it? There is no language of silence. You'll have to talk and you'll have to remove all those barriers and with that, trust can be built. Manya Brachear Pashman: Jason had spent decades building that trust and the year to come yielded clear results. In May and June 2020, UAE Ambassador to the UN Lana Nusseibeh and UAE Minister of State Dr. Anwar Gargash both participated in AJC webinars to openly discuss cooperation with Israel – a topic once considered taboo.  So when the Abraham Accords were signed a few months later, for Jason and AJC colleagues who had been on this long journey for peace, it was a natural progression. Though no less dramatic.  Sitting with Minister Al Khalifa's successor, Dr. Al Zayani, and the Bahraini ambassador on the evening before the White House ceremony, it was time to drink a toast to a new chapter of history in the region. Jason Isaacson: I don't think that that would have been possible had there not been decades of contacts that had been made by many people. Roving Israeli diplomats and Israeli business people, usually operating, in fact, maybe always operating with passports from other countries, traveling across the region. And frankly, our work and the work of a limited number of other people who were in non-governmental positions. Some journalists, authors, scholars, business people, and we certainly did a great deal of this over decades, would speak with leaders in these countries and influential people who are not government officials. And opening up their minds to the possibility of the advantages that would accrue to their societies by engaging Israel and by better understanding the Jewish people and who we are, what we care about, who we are not.  Because there was, of course, a great deal of decades, I should say, centuries and millennia, of misapprehensions and lies about the Jewish people. So clearing away that baggage was a very important part of the work that we did, and I believe that others did as well. We weren't surprised. We were pleased. We applauded the Trump administration, the President and his team, for making this enormous progress on advancing regional security and peace, prosperity. We are now hoping that we can build on those achievements of 2020 going forward and expanding fully the integration of Israel into its neighborhood. Manya Brachear Pashman: Next episode, we hear how the first Trump administration developed its Middle East policy and take listeners behind the scenes of the high stakes negotiations that yielded the Abraham Accords.  Atara Lakritz is our producer. T.K. Broderick is our sound engineer. Special thanks to Jason Isaacson, Sean Savage, and the entire AJC team for making this series possible.  You can subscribe to Architects of Peace on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and you can learn more at AJC.org/ArchitectsofPeace.  The views and opinions of our guests don't necessarily reflect the positions of AJC.  You can reach us at [email protected]. If you've enjoyed this episode, please be sure to spread the word, and hop onto Apple Podcasts or Spotify to rate us and write a review to help more listeners find us. ___ Music Credits: Middle East : ID: 279780040; Composer: Eric Sutherland Middle East Violin: ID: 277189507; Composer: Andy Warner Frontiers: ID: 183925100; Publisher: Pond5 Publishing Beta (BMI); Composer: Pete Checkley (BMI) Middle East Tension: ID: 45925627 Arabic Ambient: ID: 186923328; Publisher: Victor Romanov; Composer: Victor Romanov Arabian Strings: ID: 72249988; Publisher: EITAN EPSTEIN; Composer: EITAN EPSTEIN Inspired Middle East: ID: 241884108; Composer: iCENTURY Middle East Dramatic Intense: ID: 23619101; Publisher: GRS Records; Composer: Satria Petir Mystical Middle East: ID: 212471911; Composer: Vicher    

"Our duty as Jewish youth is paving the way for ourselves. Sometimes we may feel alone . . . But the most important thing is for us as youth to pave the way for ourselves, to take action, to speak out. Even if it's hard or difficult." As American Jewish college students head back to their campuses this fall, we talk to three leaders on AJC's Campus Global Board about how antisemitism before and after the October 7 Hamas terror attacks revealed their resilience and ignited the activist inside each of them. Jonathan Iadarola shares how a traumatic anti-Israel incident at University of Adelaide in Australia led him to secure a safe space on campus for Jewish students to convene. Ivan Stern recalls launching the Argentinian Union of Jewish Students after October 7, and Lauren Eckstein shares how instead of withdrawing from her California college and returning home to Arizona, she transferred to Washington University in St. Louis where she found opportunities she never dreamed existed and a supportive Jewish community miles from home.  *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Key Resources: AJC Campus Global Board Trusted Back to School Resources from AJC  AJC's 10-Step Guide for Parents Supporting Jewish K-12 Students AJC's Center for Education Advocacy Listen – AJC Podcasts: The Forgotten Exodus: Untold stories of Jews who left or were driven from Arab nations and Iran People of the Pod:  Latest Episodes:  War and Poetry: Owen Lewis on Being a Jewish Poet in a Time of Crisis An Orange Tie and A Grieving Crowd: Comedian Yohay Sponder on Jewish Resilience From Broadway to Jewish Advocacy: Jonah Platt on Identity, Antisemitism, and Israel Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: MANYA: As American Jewish college students head back to their campuses this fall, it's hard to know what to expect. Since the Hamas terror attacks of October 7, maintaining a GPA has been the least of their worries. For some who attend universities that allowed anti-Israel protesters to vandalize hostage signs or set up encampments, fears still linger.  We wanted to hear from college students how they're feeling about this school year. But instead of limiting ourselves to American campuses, we asked three students from AJC's Campus Global Board – from America, Argentina, and Australia – that's right, we still aim for straight A's here. We asked them to share their experiences so far and what they anticipate this year. We'll start on the other side of the world in Australia. With us now is Jonathan Iadarola, a third-year student at the University of Adelaide in Adelaide, Australia, the land down under, where everything is flipped, and they are getting ready to wrap up their school year in November.  Jonathan serves as president of the South Australia branch of the Australian Union of Jewish students and on AJC's Campus Global Board. Jonathan, welcome to People of the Pod. JONATHAN: Thank you for having me. MANYA: So tell us what your experience has been as a Jewish college student in Australia, both before October 7 and after. JONATHAN: So at my university, we have a student magazine, and there was a really awful article in the magazine that a student editor wrote, very critical of Israel, obviously not very nice words. And it sort of ended with like it ended with Death to Israel, glory to the Intifada. Inshallah, it will be merciless. So it was very, very traumatic, obviously, like, just the side note, my great aunt actually died in the Second Intifada in a bus bombing. So it was just like for me, a very personal like, whoa. This is like crazy that someone on my campus wrote this and genuinely believes what they wrote. So yeah, through that experience, I obviously, I obviously spoke up. That's kind of how my activism on campus started. I spoke up against this incident, and I brought it to the university. I brought it to the student editing team, and they stood their ground. They tried to say that this is free speech. This is totally okay. It's completely like normal, normal dialog, which I completely disagreed with.  And yeah, they really pushed back on it for a really long time. And it just got more traumatic with myself and many other students having to go to meetings in person with this student editor at like a student representative council, which is like the students that are actually voted in. Like student government in the United States, like a student body that's voted in by the students to represent us to the university administration.  And though that student government actually laughed in our faces in the meeting while we were telling them that this sort of incident makes us as Jewish students feel unsafe on campus. And we completely were traumatized. Completely, I would say, shattered, any illusion that Jewish students could feel safe on campus. And yeah, that was sort of the beginning of my university journey, which was not great. MANYA: Wow. And that was in 2022, before October 7. So after the terror attacks was when most college campuses here in America really erupted. Had the climate at the University of Adelaide improved by then, or did your experience continue to spiral downward until it was addressed? JONATHAN: It's kind of remained stagnant, I would say. The levels haven't really improved or gotten worse. I would say the only exception was maybe in May 2024, when the encampments started popping up across the world. Obviously it came, came to my city as well. And it wasn't very, it wasn't very great. There was definitely a large presence on my campus in the encampment.  And they were, they were more peaceful than, I would say, other encampments across Australia and obviously in the United States as well. But it was definitely not pleasant for students to, you know, be on campus and constantly see that in their faces and protesting. They would often come into people's classrooms as well. Sharing everything that they would like to say. You couldn't really escape it when you were on campus. MANYA: So how did you find refuge? Was there a community center or safe space on campus? Were there people who took you in?    JONATHAN: So I'm the president of the Jewish Student Society on my campus. One of the things that I really pushed for when the encampments came to my city was to have a Jewish space on campus. It was something that my university never had, and thankfully, we were able to push and they were like 'Yes, you know what? This is the right time. We definitely agree.' So we actually now have our own, like, big Jewish room on campus, and we still have it to this day, which is amazing.  So it's great to go to when, whether we feel uncomfortable on campus, or whether we just want a place, you know, to feel proud in our Jewish identity. And there's often events in the room. There's like, a Beers and Bagels, or we can have beer here at 18, so it's OK for us. And there's also, yeah, there's bagels. Then we also do Shabbat dinners. Obviously, there's still other stuff happening on campus that's not as nice, but it's great that we now have a place to go when we feel like we need a place to be proud Jews. MANYA: You mentioned that this was the start of your Jewish activism. So, can you tell us a little bit about your Jewish upbringing and really how your college experience has shifted your Jewish involvement, just activity in general? JONATHAN: Yeah, that's a great question. So I actually grew up in Adelaide. This is my home. I was originally born in Israel to an Israeli mother, but we moved, I was two years old when we moved to Adelaide. There was a Jewish school when I grew up. So I did attend the Jewish school until grade five, and then, unfortunately, it did close due to low numbers. And so I had to move to the public school system.  And from that point, I was very involved in the Jewish community through my youth. And then there was a point once the Jewish school closed down where I kind of maybe slightly fell out. I was obviously still involved, but not to the same extent as I was when I was younger. And then I would say the first place I got kind of reintroduced was once I went to college and obviously met other Jewish students, and then it made me want to get back in, back, involved in the community, to a higher level than I had been since primary school.  And yeah, then obviously, these incidents happened on campus, and that kind of, I guess, it shoved me into the spotlight unintentionally, where I felt like no one else was saying anything. I started just speaking up against this. And then obviously, I think many other Jews on campus saw this, and were like: 'Hang on. We want to also support this and, like, speak out against it.' and we kind of formed a bit of a group on campus, and that's how the club actually was formed as well.  So the club didn't exist prior to this incident. It kind of came out of it, which is, I guess, the beautiful thing, but also kind of a sad thing that we only seem to find each other in incidences of, you know, sadness and trauma. But the beautiful thing is that from that, we have been able to create a really nice, small community on campus for Jewish students.  So yeah, that's sort of how my journey started. And then through that, I got involved with the Australsian Union of Jewish Students, which is the Jewish Student Union that represents Jewish students all across Australia and New Zealand. And I started the South Australian branch, which is the state that Adelaide is in.  And I've been the president for the last three years. So that's sort of been my journey. And obviously through that, I've gotten involved with American Jewish Committee.  MANYA: So you're not just fighting antisemitism, these communities and groups that you're forming are doing some really beautiful things.  JONATHAN: Obviously, I really want to ensure that Jewish student life can continue to thrive in my city, but also across Australia. And one way that we've really wanted to do that is to help create essentially, a national Shabbaton. An event where Jewish students from all across the country, come to one place for a weekend, and we're all together having a Shabbat dinner together, learning different educational programs, hearing from different amazing speakers, and just being with each other in our Jewish identity, very proud and united. It's one of, I think, my most proud accomplishments so far, through my college journey, that I've been able to, you know, create this event and make it happen.  MANYA: And is there anything that you would like to accomplish Jewishly before you finish your college career? JONATHAN: There's a couple things. The big thing for me is ensuring, I want there to continue to be a place on campus for people to go and feel proud in their Jewish identity. I think having a Jewish space is really important, and it's something that I didn't have when I started my college journey. So I'm very glad that that's in place for future generations.  For most of my college journey so far, we didn't have even a definition at my university for antisemitism. So if you don't have a definition, how are you going to be able to define what is and what isn't antisemitic and actually combat it? So now, thankfully, they do have a definition. I don't know exactly if it's been fully implemented yet, but I know that they have agreed to a definition, and it's a mix of IHRA and the Jerusalem Declaration, I believe, so it's kind of a mix. But I think as a community, we're reasonably happy with it, because now they actually have something to use, rather than not having anything at all.  And yeah, I think those are probably the two main things for me, obviously, ensuring that there's that processes at the university moving forward for Jewish students to feel safe to report when there are incidents on campus. And then ensuring that there's a place for Jewish students to continue to feel proud in their Jewish identity and continue to share that and live that while they are studying at the university.  MANYA: Well, Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us, and enjoy your holiday. JONATHAN: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.  MANYA: Now we turn to Argentina, Buenos Aires to be exact, to talk to Ivan Stern, the first Argentine and first Latin American to serve on AJC's Campus Global Board. A student at La Universidad Nacional de San Martin, Ivan just returned to classes last week after a brief winter break down there in the Southern Hemisphere.  What is Jewish life like there on that campus? Are there organizations for Jewish students?  IVAN: So I like to compare Jewish life in Buenos Aires like Jewish life in New York or in Paris or in Madrid. We are a huge city with a huge Jewish community where you can feel the Jewish sense, the Jewish values, the synagogues everywhere in the street. When regarding to college campuses, we do not have Jewish institutions or Jewish clubs or Jewish anything in our campuses that advocate for Jewish life or for Jewish students.  We don't actually need them, because the Jewish community is well established and respected in Argentina. Since our terrorist attacks of the 90s, we are more respected, and we have a strong weight in all the decisions. So there's no specific institution that works for Jewish life on campus until October 7 that we gathered a student, a student led organization, a student led group.  We are now part of a system that it's created, and it exists in other parts of the world, but now we are start to strengthening their programming and activities in Argentina we are we now have the Argentinian union with Jewish students that was born in October 7, and now we represent over 150 Jewish students in more than 10 universities. We are growing, but we are doing Shabbat talks in different campuses for Jewish students. We are bringing Holocaust survivors to universities to speak with administrations and with student cabinets that are not Jewish, and to learn and to build bridges of cooperation, of course, after October 7, which is really important. So we are in the middle of this work. We don't have a strong Hillel in campuses or like in the US, but we have Jewish students everywhere. We are trying to make this grow, to try to connect every student with other students in other universities and within the same university. And we are, yeah, we are work in progress. MANYA: Listeners just heard from your Campus Global Board colleague Jonathan Iadarola from Adelaide, Australia, and he spoke about securing the first  space for Jewish students on campus at the University of Adelaide. Does that exist at your university? Do you have a safe space?  So Hillel exists in Buenos Aires and in Cordoba, which Cordova is another province of Argentina. It's a really old, nice house in the middle of a really nice neighborhood in Buenos Aires. So also in Argentina another thing that it's not like in the U.S., we don't live on campuses, so we come and go every day from our houses to the to the classes. So that's why sometimes it's possible for us to, after classes, go to Hillel or or go to elsewhere. And the Argentinian Union, it's our job to represent politically to the Jewish youth on campus. To make these bridges of cooperation with non-Jewish actors of different college campuses and institutions, as I mentioned before, we bring Holocaust survivors, we place banners, we organize rallies. We go to talk with administrators. We erase pro- Palestinian paints on the wall. We do that kind of stuff, building bridges, making programs for Jewish youth. We also do it, but it's not our main goal. MANYA: So really, it's an advocacy organization, much like AJC. IVAN: It's an advocacy organization, and we are really, really, really happy to work alongside with the AJC more than once to strengthen  our goals. MANYA: October 7 was painful for all of us, what happened on university campuses there in Argentina that prompted the need for a union? So the impact of October 7 in Argentina wasn't nearly as strong as in other parts of the world, and definitely nothing like what's been happening on U.S. campuses. Maybe that's because October here is finals season, and our students were more focused on passing their classes than reacting to what was happening on the Middle East, but there were attempts of engagements, rallies, class disruptions and intimidations, just like in other places. That's why we focused on speaking up, taking action. So here it's not happening. What's happening in the U.S., which was really scary, and it's still really scary, but something was happening, and we needed to react. There wasn't a Jewish institution advocating for Jewish youth on campus, directly, getting to know what Jewish students were facing, directly, lively walking through the through the hallways, through the campus, through the campuses. So that's why we organize this student-led gathering, different students from different universities, universities. We need to do something. At the beginning, this institution was just on Instagram. It was named the institutions, and then for Israel, like my university acronym, it's unsam Universidad national, San Martin unsam. So it was unsam for Israel. So we, so we posted, like every campaign we were doing in our campuses, and then the same thing happened in other university and in other universities. So now we, we gathered everyone, and now we are the Argentinian Union of Jewish students.  But on top of that, in November 2023 students went on summer break until March 2024 so while the topic was extremely heated elsewhere here, the focus had shifted on other things. The new national government was taking office, which had everyone talking more about their policies than about Israel.  So now the issue is starting to resurface because of the latest news from Gaza, So we will go where it goes from here, but the weight of the community here, it's, as I said, really strong. So we have the ability to speak up.  MANYA: What kinds of conversations have you had with university administrators directly after. October 7, and then now, I mean, are you, are you communicating with them? Do you have an open channel of communication? Or is are there challenges? IVAN: we do? That's an incredible question there. It's a tricky one, because it depends on the university. The answer we receive. Of course, in my university, as I said, we are, we are lots of Jews in our eyes, but we are a strong minority also, but we have some Jewish directors in the administration, so sometimes they are really focused on attending to our concerns, and they are really able to to pick a call, to answer back our messages, also, um, there's a there's a great work that Argentina has been, has been doing since 2020 to apply the IHRA definition in every institute, in every public institution. So for example, my university, it's part of the IHRA definition. So that's why it was easy for us to apply sanctions to student cabinets or student organizations that were repeating antisemitic rhetorics, distortioning the Holocaust messages and everything, because we could call to our administrators, regardless if they were Jewish or not, but saying like, 'Hey, this institution is part of the IHRA definition since February 2020, it's November 2023, and this will be saying this, this and that they are drawing on the walls of the of our classrooms. Rockets with Magen David, killing people. This is distortioning the Jewish values, the religion, they are distortioning everything. Please do something.'  So they started doing something. Then with the private institutions, we really have a good relationship. They have partnerships with different institutions from Israel, so it's easy for us to stop political demonstrations against the Jewish people. We are not against political demonstrations supporting the Palestinian statehood or anything. But when it regards to the safety of Jewish life on campus or of Jewish students, we do make phone calls. We do call to other Jewish institutions to have our back. And yes, we it's we have difficult answers, but we but the important thing is that we have them. They do not ghost us, which is something we appreciate. But sometimes ghosting is worse. Sometimes it's better for us to know that the institution will not care about us, than not knowing what's their perspective towards the problem. So sometimes we receive like, 'Hey, this is not an antisemitism towards towards our eyes. If you want to answer back in any kind, you can do it. We will not do nothing.  MANYA: Ivan, I'm wondering what you're thinking of as you're telling me this. Is there a specific incident that stands out in your mind as something the university administrators declined to address? IVAN: So in December 2023, when we were all in summer break, we went back to my college, to place the hostages signs on the walls of every classroom. Because at the same time, the student led organizations that were far left, student-led organizations were placing these kind of signs and drawings on the walls with rockets, with the Magen David and demonizing Jews. So we did the same thing. So we went to the school administrators, and we call them, like, hey, the rocket with the Magen David. It's not okay because the Magen David is a Jewish symbol. This is a thing happening in the Middle East between a state and another, you have to preserve the Jewish students, whatever. And they told us, like, this is not an antisemitic thing for us, regardless the IHRA definition. And then they did do something and paint them back to white, as the color of the wall.  But they told us, like, if you want to place the hostages signs on top of them or elsewhere in the university, you can do it. So if they try to bring them down, yet, we will do something, because that this is like free speech, that they can do whatever they want, and you can do whatever that you want. So that's the answers we receive.  So sometimes they are positive, sometimes they are negative, sometimes in between. But I think that the important thing is that the youth is united, and as students, we are trying to push forward and to advocate for ourselves and to organize by ourselves to do something. MANYA: Is there anything that you want to accomplish, either this year or before you leave campus? IVAN: To keep building on the work of the Argentinian Union of Jewish Students is doing bringing Jewish college students together, representing them, pushing our limits, expanding across the country. As I said, we have a strong operations in Buenos Aires as the majority of the community is here, but we also know that there's other Jewish students in other provinces of Argentina. We have 24 provinces, so we are just working in one.  And it's also harder for Jewish students to live Jewishly on campus in other provinces when they are less students. Then the problems are bigger because you feel more alone, because you don't know other students, Jews or non-Jews. So that's one of my main goals, expanding across the country, and while teaming up with non-Jewish partners.  MANYA: You had said earlier that the students in the union were all buzzing about AJC's recent ad in the The New York Times calling for a release of the hostages still in Gaza.Are you hoping your seat on AJC's Campus Global Board will help you expand that reach? Give you some initiatives to empower and encourage your peers. Not just your peers, Argentina's Jewish community at large.  IVAN: My grandma is really happy about the AJC donation to the Gaza church. She sent me a message. If you have access to the AJC, please say thank you about the donation. And then lots of Jewish students in the in our union group chat, the 150 Jewish students freaking out about the AJC article or advice in The New York Times newspaper about the hostages. So they were really happy MANYA: In other words, they they like knowing that there's a global advocacy organization out there on their side? IVAN: Also advocating for youth directly. So sometimes it's hard for us to connect with other worldwide organizations. As I said, we are in Argentina, in the bottom of the world. AJC's worldwide. And as I said several times in this conversation, we are so well established that sometimes we lack of international representation here, because everything is solved internally. So if you have, if you have anything to say, you will go to the AMIA or to the Daya, which are the central organizations, and that's it. And you are good and there. And they may have connections or relationships with the AJC or with other organizations. But now students can have direct representations with organizations like AJC, which are advocating directly for us. So we appreciate it also. MANYA: You said things never got as heated and uncomfortable in Argentina as they did on American college campuses. What encouragement would you like to offer to your American peers?  I was two weeks ago in New York in a seminar with other Jewish students from all over the world and I mentioned that our duty as Jewish youth is paving the way for ourselves. Sometimes we may feel alone. Sometimes we are, sometimes we are not. But the most important thing is for us as youth to pave the way for ourselves, to take action, to speak out. Even if it's hard or difficult. It doesn't matter how little it is, but to do something, to start reconnecting with other Jews, no matter their religious spectrum, to start building bridges with other youth. Our strongest aspect is that we are youth, Not only because we are Jewish, but we are youth. So it's easier for us to communicate with our with other peers. So sometimes when everything is, it looks like hate, or everything is shady and we cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel. We should remember that the other one shouting against us is also a peer. MANYA:. Thank you so much, Ivan. Really appreciate your time and good luck going back for your spring semester. IVAN: Thank you. Thank you so much for the time and the opportunity.  MANYA:  Now we return home. Campus Global Board Member Lauren Eckstein grew up outside Phoenix and initially pursued studies at Pomona College in Southern California. But during the spring semester after the October 7 Hamas terror attacks, she transferred to Washington University in St. Louis. She returned to California this summer as one of AJC's Goldman Fellows.  So Lauren, you are headed back to Washington University in St Louis this fall. Tell us what your experience there has been so far as a college student. LAUREN: So I've been there since January of 2024. It has a thriving Jewish community of Hillel and Chabad that constantly is just like the center of Jewish life. And I have great Jewish friends, great supportive non-Jewish friends. Administration that is always talking with us, making sure that we feel safe and comfortable. I'm very much looking forward to being back on campus.  MANYA: As I already shared with our audience, you transferred from Pomona College. Did that have anything to do with the response on campus after October 7? LAUREN: I was a bit alienated already for having spent a summer in Israel in between my freshman and sophomore year. So that would have been the summer of 2023 before October 7, like few months before, and I already lost some friends due to spending that summer in Israel before anything had happened and experienced some antisemitism before October 7, with a student calling a pro-Israel group that I was a part of 'bloodthirsty baby killers for having a barbecue in celebration of Israeli independence. But after October 7 is when it truly became unbearable. I lost hundreds of followers on Instagram. The majority of people I was friends with started giving me dirty looks on campus. I was a history and politics double major at the time, so the entire history department signed a letter in support of the war. I lost any sense of emotional safety on campus. And so 20 days after October 7, with constant protests happening outside of my dorm, I could hear it from my dorm students going into dining halls, getting them to sign petitions against Israel, even though Israel had not been in Gaza at all at this point. This was all before the invasion happened. I decided to go home for a week for my mental well being, and ended up deciding to spend the rest of that semester at home. MANYA: What did your other Jewish classmates do at Pomona? Did they stay? Did they transfer as well? LAUREN: I would say the majority of Jewish students in Claremont either aren't really–they don't really identify with their Jewish identity in other way, in any way, or most of them identify as anti-Zionist very proudly. And there were probably only a few dozen of us in total, from all five colleges that would identify as Zionists, or really say like, oh, I would love to go to Israel. One of my closest friends from Pomona transferred a semester after I did, to WashU. A few other people I know transferred to other colleges as well. I think the choice for a lot of people were either, I'm going to get through because I only have a year left, or, like, a couple years left, or I'm going to go abroad.  Or I'm just going to face it, and I know that it's going to be really difficult, and I'm only going to have a few friends and only have a few professors I can even take classes with, but I'm going to get through it. MANYA: So have you kept in touch with the friends in Pomona or at Pomona that cut you off, shot you dirty looks, or did those friendships just come to an end? LAUREN: They all came to an end. I can count on one hand, under one hand, the number of people that I talked to from any of the Claremont Colleges. I'm lucky to have one like really, really close friend of mine, who is not Jewish, that stood by my side during all of this, when she easily did not need to and will definitely always be one of my closest friends, but I don't talk to the majority of people that I was friends with at Pomona. MANYA: Well, I'm very sorry to hear that, but it sounds like the experience helped you recognize your truest friend. With only one year left at WashU, I'm sure plenty of people are asking you what you plan to do after you graduate, but I want to know what you are hoping to do in the time you have left on campus. LAUREN: I really just want to take it all in. I feel like I haven't had a very normal college experience. I mean, most people don't transfer in general, but I think my two college experiences have been so different from each other, even not even just in terms of antisemitism or Jewish population, but even just in terms of like, the kind of school it is, like, the size of it and all of that, I have made such amazing friends at WashU – Jewish and not –  that I just really want to spend as much time with them as I can, and definitely spend as much time with the Jewish community and staff at Hillel and Chabad that I can. I'm minoring in Jewish, Islamic, Middle Eastern Studies, and so I'm really looking forward to taking classes in that subject, just that opportunity that I didn't have at Pomona. I really just want to go into it with an open mind and really just enjoy it as much as I can, because I haven't been able to enjoy much of my college experience. So really appreciate the good that I have. MANYA: As I mentioned before, like Jonathan and Ivan, you are on AJC's Campus Global Board. But you also served as an AJC Goldman Fellow in the Los Angeles regional office this summer, which often involves working on a particular project. Did you indeed work on something specific?  LAUREN: I mainly worked on a toolkit for parents of kids aged K-8, to address Jewish identity and antisemitism. And so really, what this is trying to do is both educate parents, but also provide activities and tools for their kids to be able to really foster that strong Jewish identity. Because sadly, antisemitism is happening to kids at much younger ages than what I dealt with, or what other people dealt with.  And really, I think bringing in this positive aspect of Judaism, along with providing kids the tools to be able to say, 'What I'm seeing on this social media platform is antisemitic, and this is why,' is going to make the next generation of Jews even stronger. MANYA: Did you experience any antisemitism or any challenges growing up in Arizona? LAUREN: I went to a non-religious private high school, and there was a lot of antisemitism happening at that time, and so there was a trend to post a blue square on your Instagram. And so I did that. And one girl in my grade –it was a small school of around 70 kids per grade, she called me a Zionist bitch for posting the square. It had nothing to do with Israel or anything political. It was just a square in solidarity with Jews that were being killed in the United States for . . . being Jewish.  And so I went to the school about it, and they basically just said, this is free speech. There's nothing we can do about it. And pretty much everyone in my grade at school sided with her over it.  I didn't really start wearing a star until high school, but I never had a second thought about it. Like, I never thought, oh, I will be unsafe if I wear this here.  MANYA: Jonathan and Ivan shared how they started Jewish organizations for college students that hadn't existed before. As someone who has benefited from Hillel and Chabad and other support networks, what advice would you offer your peers in Argentina and Australia? LAUREN: It's so hard for me to say what the experience is like as an Argentinian Jew or as an Australian Jew, but I think community is something that Jews everywhere need. I think it's through community that we keep succeeding, generation after generation, time after time, when people try to discriminate against us and kill us. I believe, it's when we come together as a people that we can truly thrive and feel safe.  And I would say in different places, how Jewish you want to outwardly be is different. But I think on the inside, we all need to be proud to be Jewish, and I think we all need to connect with each other more, and that's why I'm really excited to be working with students from all over the world on the Campus Global Board, because I feel like us as Americans, we don't talk to Jews from other countries as much as we should be. I think that we are one people. We always have been and always will be, and we really need to fall back on that. MANYA: Well, that's a lovely note to end on. Thank you so much, Lauren. LAUREN: Thank you. MANYA:  If you missed last week's episode, be sure to tune in for my conversation with Adam Louis-Klein, a PhD candidate at McGill University. Adam shared his unexpected journey from researching the Desano tribe in the Amazon to confronting rising antisemitism in academic circles after October 7. He also discussed his academic work, which explores the parallels between indigenous identity and Jewish peoplehood, and unpacks the politics of historical narrative.  Next week, People of the Pod will be taking a short break while the AJC podcast team puts the finishing touches on a new series set to launch August 28: Architects of Peace: The Abraham Accords Story. Stay tuned.  

As the school year kicks off, Adam Louis-Klein shares his unexpected journey from researching the Desano tribe in the Amazon to confronting rising antisemitism in academic circles after October 7. He discusses his academic work, which explores the parallels between indigenous identity and Jewish peoplehood, and unpacks the politics of historical narrative.  *The views and opinions expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect the views or position of AJC. Listen – AJC Podcasts: The Forgotten Exodus: Untold stories of Jews who left or were driven from Arab nations and Iran People of the Pod:  Latest Episodes:  War and Poetry: Owen Lewis on Being a Jewish Poet in a Time of Crisis An Orange Tie and A Grieving Crowd: Comedian Yohay Sponder on Jewish Resilience From Broadway to Jewish Advocacy: Jonah Platt on Identity, Antisemitism, and Israel Follow People of the Pod on your favorite podcast app, and learn more at AJC.org/PeopleofthePod You can reach us at: [email protected] If you've appreciated this episode, please be sure to tell your friends, and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Transcript of the Interview: Manya Brachear Pashman:   Adam Louis-Klein is a PhD candidate in anthropology at McGill University, where he researches antisemitism, Zionism, Jewish peoplehood, and broader questions of indigeneity and historical narrative. His work bridges academic scholarship and public commentary, drawing on field work with indigenous communities in the Amazon and studies in philosophy at Yale, The New School and the University of Chicago.  He writes on translation and the politics of peoplehood across traditions, and is committed to developing a Jewish intellectual voice grounded in historical depth and moral clarity. He blogs for The Times of Israel, and he's with us today to talk about his experience emerging from the Amazon, where he was doing research after October 7, 2023, and discovering what had happened in Israel. Adam, welcome to People of the Pod. Adam Louis-Klein:   Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here on this podcast with the American Jewish community. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So tell us about the research that you are doing that took you into the depths of the Amazon rainforest. Adam Louis-Klein:   So I work with a group called the Desano people who live in the Vaupés region, which is a tributary of the upper Rio Negro. Part of it's in Brazil, part of it's in Colombia today. I went there because I was really interested in trying to understand how people were often seen at the margins of the world, the periphery of the global economy. See themselves and their own sort of role in the cosmos and in the world in general.  And what I found actually is that these people see themselves at the center of it all, as a unique people, as a chosen people. And that was something that really inspired me, and later led me to rethink my own relationship to Jewish peoplehood and chosenness, and what it means to be a kind of indigenous people struggling for survival and recognition. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So were you raised Jewish? Did you have a Jewish upbringing? Adam Louis-Klein:   Yeah, I was raised as kind of a cultural and reform Jew. I wouldn't say that Israel was super present in our lives, but we did travel there for my younger brother's Bar Mitzvah at the Kotel, and that did have an impression on me. And then later on, I wear a wristband of Brothers for Life, which is a charity for injured Israeli soldiers. But as time went on, I got involved in these radical academic scenes.  And you know, my own field, anthropology, has fundamentally turned against Jewish peoplehood and Israel, unfortunately. But it was really in the Amazon, actually, that my journey of Teshuvah and rediscovering my Jewishness and the importance of Jewish peoplehood was really re-awoken for me. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You were involved in these radical circles. Did you ascribe to some of the beliefs that a lot of your academic colleagues were ascribing to? Did you start to question the legitimacy of Israel or the actions of the Israeli government?  Adam Louis-Klein:   I think I started to ascribe to them in a kind of background and passive way. In the way that I think that many people in these communities do. So I had actually learned about Israel. I did know something. But as I wanted to kind of ascribe to a broader social justice narrative, I sort of immediately assumed when people told me, that Israelis were the ones doing the oppression and the injustice, that that had to be true. And I didn't question it so much.  So it's ironic that those spaces, I think, that are built around critical thought, have become spaces, in my opinion, that are not so critical today. And I think we really need a critical discourse around this kind of criticism, sort of to develop our own critical discourse of what anti-Zionism is today. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So what inspired the research? In other words, so you're involved in these radical circles, and then you go and immerse yourself with these tribes to do the research. What inspired you to do it, and was it your Jewishness? Adam Louis-Klein:   So I think what led me to anthropology was probably a kind of diasporic Jewish sensibility. So I'd studied philosophy before, and I was very entrenched in the Western tradition. But I was kind of seeking to think across worlds and think in translation. I've always kind of moved between countries and cities, and I think that's always been an intuitive part of who I am as a Jew.  And anthropology was founded by Jews, by Franz Boas, Emile Durkheim, Claude Lévi-Strauss, so I think that's kind of part of what brought me there. But I ended up rediscovering also the meaning of, you know, homeland as well, and what it means to be part of a people with a unique destiny and relationship to territory and land. And that made me understand Zionism in a completely new light. Manya Brachear Pashman:   And did you understand it when you were there? Did you come to these realizations when you were there, or did you start to piece all of that together and connect the dots after you emerged? Adam Louis-Klein:   So part of my research looks at how indigenous people engage with Christian missionaries who try and translate the Bible into indigenous languages. So when that encounter happens, it's actually quite common throughout the world, that a lot of indigenous people identify with the Jewish people quite strongly. So this might sound a little counterintuitive, especially if someone's used to certain activist networks in which indigeneity is highly associated with Palestinians, Jews are treated now as settler colonists, which is basically the opposite of indigeneity. And that's become a kind of consensus in academia, even though it seems to fly in the face of both facts and our own self understanding as Jews. So I saw that in the Amazon, in the way people at the margins of the world who might not already be integrated in the academic, activist kind of scene, sort of organically identify with the Jewish people and Israel.  And they admire the Jewish people and Israel, because they see in us, a people that's managed to maintain our cultural identity, our specific and distinct civilization, while also being able to use the tools of modernity and technology to benefit us and to benefit the world. So I think that also kind of disrupts some primitivist notions about indigenous people, that they should remain sort of technologically backwards, so to speak. I think that they have a more nuanced approach. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So I guess, what did you discover when you did emerge from the Amazon? In other words, October 7 had happened. When did you emerge and how did you find out? Adam Louis-Klein:   So I'd been living in a remote Desano village without internet or a phone or any connection to the outside world for months. And then I returned a couple days after October 7 to a local town, so still in the Amazon, but I was signing onto my computer for the first time in months, and I remember signing onto Facebook and I saw the images of people running from the Nova Festival. And that was the first thing that I saw in months from the world. So that was a very traumatic experience that sort of ruptured my sense of reality in many ways, but the most difficult thing was seeing my intellectual milieu immediately transform into a space of denial or justification or even just straightforward aggression and hate to anyone who showed any solidarity with Israelis in that moment, or who saw it as a moment to to say something positive and inspiring and helpful about the Jewish people. That was actually seen as an act of violence.  So I went to Facebook, and I don't remember exactly what I said, I stand with the Jewish people, or with Israelis, or Am Yisrael Chai, or something like that. And many people in my circles, really interpreted that as an aggression. So at that point, it was really strange, because I'd been living in the Amazon, trying to help people with their own cultural survival, you know, their own struggle to reproduce their own civilization in the face of assimilation and surrounding society that refuses to validate their unique identity. And then I came back to the world, and I was seeing the exact same thing happening to my own people.  And even stranger than that, it was happening to my own people, but in the language of critique and solidarity. So the very language I'd learned in anthropology, of how to support indigenous people and sort of to align myself with their struggles was now being weaponized against me in this kind of horrible inversion of reality. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Had you sensed this aggressive tone prior to your time in the Amazon and when you were involved with these circles? Adam Louis-Klein:   No, I'd never witnessed anything like this in my life, and so it took some real searching and going inward, and I was still in the jungle, but encountering all this anti-Zionist hate online from people I thought were my friends. And I had to really ask myself, you know, maybe I'm in the wrong, because I've never seen people act like . . .  people who are scholars, intellectuals who should be thinking critically about antisemitism. Because antisemitism, you know, we talk a lot about in the academy, critical race theory. So we look at ideologies, tropes, and symbols that are used to dehumanize minority groups, and we learn to be skeptical.  So we learn that there are discourses that speak at times, in languages of reason, of justice, even that are actually biased, structurally biased, against minorities. So then I was deeply confused. Why did these same people not know how to apply those same analytics to Jews? And not only did they not know how, they seemed to think it was offensive to even try. So that was really strange, and I had to kind of think, well, you know, maybe I'm wrong, you know, I think there's a process of they've attempted to sort of stabilize this consensus at such a degree. That Israel is committing genocide, that Israel is a settler colonial entity that is fundamentally evil, basically. And Israelis are fundamentally oppressors. They've created a space it's almost impossible to question them.  And it took me a long time to emerge and to come to that realization that I think anti-Zionism is really a discourse of libel, fundamentally. And these accusations, I wouldn't say, are offered in good faith. And it's unfortunately, not much use to try and refute them. And so instead, I started writing, and I started trying to analyze anti-Zionism itself as an object of critique and as an ideology that we can deconstruct. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So did this change the course of your academic research? In other words, you said you started writing, are you writing academic articles, or is it more The Times of Israel blog and your more public writings? Adam Louis-Klein:   So I've been writing publicly. I started writing on Facebook, and then the readership on Facebook started to grow, and then I sent it to the Times of Israel. And I do have some plans lined up to try and get this material out in the academic context as well. Because I think that's really important, that we build parallel academic spaces and our own language of academic legitimacy. Because I think that academic language, and as well, that kind of activist language, critique of oppression is valuable, but it's also culturally hegemonic today. And so I think that as Jews, if we abandon that language, we will have trouble telling our story. So I think there are also projects like this. I'd like to mention the London Center for the Study of contemporary antisemitism. I think that's a great model. So they're doing serious academic work on contemporary antisemitism, not just classical antiSemitism, which we're all familiar with, Neo Nazis, etc. You know, what does it look like today? You know, red triangles, Hamas headbands. This is a new language of hate that I think we need to be on top of. Manya Brachear Pashman:   In fact, you presented a paper recently, there, correct, at the London Center, or at a conference sponsored by the London Center? Adam Louis-Klein:   Yeah, I did. I presented a paper. It was called the Dissolving the Denotational Account of Antisemitism. So denotational means, what words refer to. Because what I found very often is that it's a trope that's become really familiar now. Anti-Zionists, they say, we don't hate Jews, we only hate Zionists. We don't hate Judaism, we hate Zionism. We're not antisemitic, we're critical of Israel.  So these distinctions that are made are all about saying, you can't point to us as attacking Jews, because our language is such that we are denoting we are referring to something else. So in my talk, I was trying to explain that I like look at anti-Zionism more like a symbolic anthropologist. So when an anthropologist goes and works with an indigenous culture, we look at the kinds of symbols that they use to articulate their vision of the world. The Jaguar, for example, becomes a symbol of certain kinds of potency or predation, for example. So I look at anti-Zionism in the same way. It's not important to me whether they think they're referring to Israel or Jews. What's important to me is the use of conspiratorial symbols, or a symbol of child killing, for example. So we see that classical antisemitism accused Jews of killing children. Anti-Zionism today constructs Israelis as bloodthirsty and desiring to kill children. So when we see that, we see that even if they say not Jews, Zionists, they're using similar symbols that have mutated. So I think that's what I'm trying to track, is both the mutation of classical antisemitism into anti-Zionism, and also the continuities between the two. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Did you ever experience antisemitism from your academic circles or really anywhere in life through from childhood on? Adam Louis-Klein:   Not particularly. So I went to a northeastern prep school, and we were, there were very few Jews, so I think we were sort of seen as another to the kind of traditional northeast New England aristocracy. But it wasn't something that overt, I would say. I think that antisemitism is something that occurs more so in cycles. So if you look at the 19th century, emancipation of Jews and integration of Jews into society, that was the up part of the cycle, and then the reaction to that came on the down part of the cycle. So unfortunately, I think we're in the same thing today.  So Jews have very successfully assimilated into American society and became very successful and integrated into American society. But now we're seeing the backlash. And the backlash is taking a new form, which is anti-Zionism, which allows itself to evade what classical antisemitism looks like, and what we're used to identifying as classical antisemitism. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So I do want to talk about the word indigenous or indigeneity. Jews celebrate the creation of Israel as a return to their indigenous homeland, and Palestinians also consider it their indigenous homeland. So how are their definitions of indigeneity, how are those definitions different or distinct? I mean, how are their experiences distinct from each other's and from the people and the tribes with whom you immersed yourself in the Amazon? Adam Louis-Klein:   So I think indigeneity, in its fundamental meaning, captures something very real that's common to tons of different groups across the world. Which is a certain conception of the way that one's genealogical ancestry is connected to a specific territory where one emerged as a people, and through which one's own peoplehood  is defined. So as Jews, our own peoplehood is connected to the land of Israel. It's the Promised Land, it's the place where our civilization first flourished, and it's the place we've always looked to return to. And so that is very similar to indigenous groups around the world.  Now, at the same time, I think there's another concept of indigeneity that gets thrown in and sometimes confuses the issue a little bit, and that's that being indigenous relates to a specific history of dispossession, usually by European colonialism, starting in the 16th century. Now, in fact, there have been many colonialism throughout history. So there have been Islamic civilization practiced widespread colonialism. The Romans practiced colonialism. The Babylonians. But there is a tendency to only look at this form of colonialism.  And now when we look at the Middle East, what we find then is these analytics are becoming confused and applied in strange ways. So we see that Palestinians, for example, their genealogical traditions, they understand themselves as tribally derived from tribes in Arabia that expanded with Muhammad's conquest, and that's very common. And Arabian culture and Arabic language is what they practice.  And so at that level, from a factual perspective, Palestinians are not indigenous in the genealogical sense. However, there's a tendency to believe, since Jews have a state today, then since they appear not as dispossessed, because Jews have actually repossessed our ancestral land, that Jews can't be indigenous. But so I think that's a confusion. The basic understanding of what indigenous means, and largely what the UN definition is based on, is this notion of continuous identification with the territory.  So I really think that this isn't so much a question of who can live where. I think Palestinians' right to live in the land has largely been recognized by the UN Partition Plan in 1947, or the Oslo Accords, and other peace deals, but it's a question of conceptual clarity and fact. And so at this level, I believe that the UN and other institutions should formally recognize Jews as indigenous to the land of Israel. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You have written, and I want to read this line, because it's so rich you have written that the recursive logic of an antiSemitic consensus builds upon itself, feeds on moral certainty, and shields its participants from having to ask whether what they are reproducing is not justice at all, but a new iteration of a very old lie. I. So are there other examples of that phenomenon in academia, either currently or in the past? Adam Louis-Klein:   So what I was trying to grasp with that was my sense of despair in seeing that it was impossible to even point to people, point people to fact within academia, or debate these issues, or explain to non Jews who Jews even are. So I got the sense that people are talking quite a lot about Jews, but don't seem to really care about our voices.  So some of that writing that you're quoting is an attempt to understand anti Zionism, not just not only as libel, but also as a kind of practice of exclusion, where Jews feel silenced in spaces. And where, where for all the talk of Academic Freedom versus antisemitism, which I think can sometimes be a tricky issue, I believe that Jews own academic freedom has fundamentally been violated by this discourse so that recursive logic is the way rumor and repeating slogans and repeating notions, regardless of their factual content, like the Jews or settler colonists, sort of builds on itself, as well as on social media, with this algorithmic escalation until it's almost impossible to talk back to it.  So an example would be in 2024 the American Anthropological Association had its big conference, and the Gaza genocide was the main theme. But it wasn't a theme we were all going to go and debate. It was a theme that we assumed was true, and we were going to talk about it as a thing in the world, and then the Society for cultural anthropology released an issue with the exact same premise.  It was glorifying Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas and Nasrallah of Hezbollah. And then, interestingly enough, just the other day, they released another edition, which was about settler colonialism, and saying, We want to come back to this issue and and reaffirm that settler colonialism applies to Israel and Palestine against people who are attacking the concept, and we're against the exceptionalization of Israel in their terms.  And so I searched through the document, but I couldn't find anywhere where Jews were talked about as indigenous, not even as a fact, but even as a claim. I couldn't find anywhere in this journal where Jew it was even acknowledged that Jews might believe that we are indigenous. So it's almost as if the very notion is just completely erased by consciousness within academia. Which is quite frightening. Manya Brachear Pashman:   And do you feel able to push back on that. In other words, as a fellow anthropologist, are you able to ask, why is this omitted from this paper, from this journal? Adam Louis-Klein:   No, because they will simply ignore you. So that's why I believe these parallel spaces are so important and what I see my work trying to do is to help build a Jewish intellectual discourse. And unfortunately, I think we have to start a little bit internally. So we've been somewhat ghettoized.  But if we build up that space, and construct these spaces where we have, where we can share the same premises and we don't have to argue from the bottom up every time. I think that will give us strength and also more clarity on our own understanding of what's happening. You know, both of the level of what is anti-Zionism, what is this new discourse? And at the level of, how can we speak from Jewish peoplehood as a legitimate place to even theorize from or build academic theories from. Manya Brachear Pashman:   You mentioned earlier that you held on to doubt. You kept open the possibility that Israel is in the wrong here, and you were watching for, looking for signs or evidence that your colleagues were correct. But as you've watched the horrors unfold, and wondered to yourself whether maybe Israel isn't really defending itself, why have you not concluded that that is indeed the case? Why have you reached the opposite conclusion? Adam Louis-Klein:   Yeah, so I talked earlier about using, like a critical race theory analysis, so thinking about ideologies and the kind of tropes they're using and the way they're talking about Israelis, but I think that's only one part of the picture. So what I noticed is, one, they didn't want to do that kind of analysis, but two, they also weren't interested in empirical fact. So when I would sometimes try and do that analysis like this. This sounds like antisemitic, right? They would say, oh, but it's true. Israel is doing this stuff. Israel is intentionally killing Palestinian children. Israel is going completely beyond the laws of war. This is a genocide of unique proportions. Completely irrational and exaggerated statements.  They also didn't want to engage with fact. I spent a lot of time digging up the sources of this material, given disinformation. For example, the Al-Ahli incident, where it was claimed by the Hamas health ministry that Israel had intentionally bombed the Al-Ahli hospital, killing 500 people. Al Jazeera promoted it. Western outlets also promoted it, and I had people all over my wall attacking me, saying that I'm justifying this by standing with Israel. And I saw what happened after, which was that they looked into it. The casualty count was tragic, but it was far lower than reported. It was about 50 people, and it was an Islamic Jihad rocket, so Israel was not even responsible.  So I think that any rational person who sees what happened in that incident becomes skeptical of everything else they're being told and of the information circuits. And so when I also saw that the people who were talking about the Gaza genocide, weren't seemed completely unfazed by that. That made me have to rethink also what they were doing, because if they're unfazed by something like that, that suggests this isn't a truth that they're being forced to acknowledge, it sounds a bit more like a truth that has its own sort of incentive to believe in despite fact, rather than being pushed towards it because of fact. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So I'm curious, if you went back to the people that you had been immersed with and had been studying for the matter of months before October 7, did you go back to them and tell them what had happened, or did they somehow know what had happened? And I'm just curious if there was any kind of response from them? Adam Louis-Klein:   Interesting. Yeah, I speak with them regularly, on a regular basis. They don't know exactly what's happened. I think they see sometimes news, but it's largely their understanding, is that there's a lot of wars in the Western world. And they ask why? Why is there so much war? Why is there so much suffering?  I mean, they were particularly interested in in the Ukraine war, because they couldn't wrap their head around why Putin was doing this, which I think is pretty similar to a lot of people, but they do see, some of them see Israel as kind of, you know, a figure of strength, and compare Israel almost to their own notions of ancestral, sort of potency or power. So they have a very different understanding of the relationship between, let's say, power and victimhood. They don't necessarily fetishize being powerless. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Tell me a little bit about this tribe, these people that you spent time with.  Adam Louis-Klein: So the Desano there, they're one of a number of many ethnicities who inhabit the Northwest Amazonian region in northwest Brazil and southeast Columbia. They live in an extremely complex world in which there are over 25 languages in the region. And they have a very unique form of marriage, where you have to marry someone who speaks a different language than you. And so any community has a kind of nucleus of people who speak the same language, and they're from the same tribe. But the women in the community all speak different languages and come from different tribes.  So I think it's a kind of space where you have to think across difference. You're constantly confronted with people who are other than you, who are from different tribes and different communities, as well as the relationship between the Western world and the indigenous world itself. And I think that's really part of the promise of anthropology, like coming back to what I was saying earlier about a diasporic Jewish sensibility, I think it's also just a Jewish sensibility. Part of being a distinct people is that we need to think with other people, and I think that includes Muslims and Arabs and Christians as well. Manya Brachear Pashman:   That is such an enlightened approach that they have taken to marriage. Isn't that what marriage is all about, crossing those differences and figuring out and they just do it from the very beginning. And I'm also curious, though, are they also mixing with Western cultures. In other words, have they broadened that, or do they keep it within those villages? Adam Louis-Klein:   Yeah, so they've taken on a lot of features of the surrounding, Colombian Spanish language culture, and that is the struggle today. Because there's a lot of economic pressures to move to the towns and the cities in order to get work and employment. And that can pose problems to the reproduction of the traditional village community.  And so that's part of what we've been struggling with and part of the project with them. So we're currently translating an old book about anthropology, about them into their language, so they have the Bible, which was translated into the language by missionaries. And now we also want to translate their own cultural material into their language so that can help them preserve the language and preserve their own cultural knowledge. Manya Brachear Pashman:   So what's next for you, Adam? Adam Louis-Klein:   So I'm hoping to continue writing and to continue getting out this work. I'm hoping to also work with grassroots organizers to try to put some activist meat onto this opposition to anti-Zionism. So I believe that, as I was talking about parallel academic spaces are really important, I also think it's important to be able to speak back to anti-Zionism with activist language. Not only the academic side, but the activist side. So I'm working with the group now, a decentralized group, developing infographics, memes, things that can circulate to educate people about anti-Zionism as the new form of antisemitism today. Manya Brachear Pashman:   Thank you for taking on this work and for sharing your story. Adam Louis-Klein:   Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.