Nat Dyer - Economics, Power and the Real World

In this episode, we’re joined by Professor Simon Dalby, one of the most original thinkers in critical geopolitics and environmental security. His scholarship has fundamentally reshaped how we understand the relationship between ecology, violence, and global governance – pioneering the concept of political geoecology and, more recently, probing the incendiary entanglements of fossil fuels, statecraft, and planetary breakdown. We explore Simon’s intellectual journey, from early work on geopolitics and discourses of security, to his provocative interventions on anthropogenic fire and the combustible politics of the climate crisis, captured in his recent book Pyromania: Fire and Geopolitics in a Climate-Disrupted World. With characteristic clarity and urgency, Simon unpacks the dangerous inertia of existing institutions and the need to stop “governing as if the Earth were not burning.” We discuss the challenge of reimagining sovereignty, security, and governance in the context of Earth system disruption – and why a politics of planetary responsibility must begin with confronting fossil modernity head-on. Simon Dalby is Professor Emeritus at Wilfrid Laurier University. He is a former co-editor of the journal Geopolitics and author of multiple influential books on climate, war, and the changing foundations of global order. Simon’s profile can be found here: https://balsillieschool.ca/people/simon-dalby/ We discussed: • Pyromania: Fire and Geopolitics in a Climate Disrupted World (2024): https://cup.columbia.edu/book/pyromania/9781788216517/ • Review of Children of a Modest Star: Planetary Thinking for an Age of Crises by J. Blake & N. Gilman (2024): https://issforum.org/roundtables/PDF/Roundtable-XXVI-24.pdf • Firepower, Climate and the Dilemma of Security, RUSI Commentary, May 2022: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/firepower-climate-and-dilemmas-security • Rethinking Environmental Security (2022): https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/rethinking-environmental-security-9781800375840.html

In this episode, we welcome Dr Nat Dyer, journalist, researcher and author of Ricardo’s Dream: How Economists Forgot the Real World and Led Us Astray. With clarity and wit, Nat takes us inside the story of how mainstream economics became unmoored from reality, tracing its detachment back to the legacy of David Ricardo and the seductive pull of abstract models. Drawing on insights from his new book, we explore the ways in which economics has lost sight of power, politics and people – and why that matters for tackling today’s global crises. From Ricardo’s imagined dream-world to the rise of neoliberal technocracy, Nat argues for a re-grounding of economics in the messy, contested terrain of the real world. Along the way, we discuss the influence of International Political Economy scholar Susan Strange – a formative intellectual figure for Nat and a powerful critic of economics’ neglect of structural power. With references to Strange’s notion of “casino capitalism,” the seduction of mathematical formalism, and the dangers of expert overreach, this is a conversation about reclaiming economics for democratic debate and social purpose. At a time of deep planetary and political instability, the stakes of getting economics right – and getting it real – could not be higher. Nat is an independent researcher, writer and journalist. His book Ricardo’s Dream is published by Bristol University Press. He writes regularly on the history of economics, the politics of expertise and the legacy of Susan Strange. Nat Dyer’s website can be found here: https://www.natdyer.com/ We discussed: • Ricardo’s Dream: How Economists Forgot the Real World and Led Us Astray: https://bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/trade/ricardos-dream • ‘Stand Up for Your Own Ideas’ – Susan Strange’s Remarkable Life: https://www.natdyer.com/stand-up-for-your-own-ideas-susan-stranges-remarkable-life/ • ‘I Never Meant to be an Academic,’ by Susan Strange: https://www.natdyer.com/i-never-meant-to-be-an-academic-by-susan-strange/

In this episode, we welcome one of the most influential voices in international relations, Professor Craig Murphy. A pioneer in global governance scholarship, Craig has been at the forefront of research on international organizations, industrial change, and the historical evolution of global political structures. His work bridges critical theory, historical materialism, and the study of transnational social movements, offering a sweeping perspective on the forces that have shaped our world. In recognition of his significant contribution to the field, Craig has received the Distinguished Senior Scholar Award in International Political Economy (2013) and International Organization (2024) from the International Studies Associations. In this conversation, we trace Craig’s trajectory through the intellectual landscape of the 1970s, where emerging ideas on world-systems theory, quantitative peace research, and environmental limits reshaped the study of international politics. With trademark humour, he reflects on the influence of Robert Cox and historical materialism, the critical need to challenge “relentless presentism” in global governance research, and the dual role of international institutions – as both market-builders for industrial capitalism and platforms for political resistance. We close by reflecting on a world grappling with existential threats and Craig’s salutary reminder that the task ahead is not just to critique existing governance but to fundamentally rethink and remake it. Craig Murphy is the Betty Freyhof Johnson ’44 Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Wellesley College. A leading scholar of global governance, he has served as President of the International Studies Association (2000-2001) and co-editor of the journal Global Governance. Craig Murphy’s Wellesley profile can be found here: https://www1.wellesley.edu/politicalscience/faculty/murphy We discussed: • ‘Every Just Peace is Something New: Translating a Difficult Finding from the Social Sciences to the Humanities and Back’, unpublished manuscript. • International Organization and Industrial Change: Global Governance since 1850 (Oxford, 1994). • ‘Global Governance Over the Long Haul’, International Studies Quarterly (2014). • ‘Global governance: poorly done and poorly understood’, International Affairs (2000).

In this episode, we welcome longtime friend and collaborator of the UCL Global Governance Institute, Professor Philipp Pattberg, to the podcast, a leading scholar in global environmental governance and sustainability transitions. As Director of the Amsterdam Sustainability Institute and Professor of Transnational Environmental Governance at VU Amsterdam, Philipp’s research examines the role of non-state actors, polycentric governance, and institutional complexity in shaping environmental policy. His work has not only advanced our understanding of governance arrangements beyond the nation-state but has also been instrumental in defining the contours of global governance itself – critically interrogating how the very concept of governance is framed, structured, and, ultimately, deployed in the world. With the UN Climate Change Conference (COP30) in Belém, Brazil, fast approaching, we take stock of the evolving governance landscape under the Paris Agreement. A decade after its adoption, the Paris framework continues to define global climate efforts – but does it still hold promise as an effective governance mechanism? In this episode, Pattberg explores the tensions between ambition and implementation, the growing role of private authority and climate clubs, and the need for transformative governance approaches to meet the urgency of the climate crisis. He also reflects on the broader implications of environmental governance beyond climate, from biodiversity loss to planetary boundaries, and what lessons can be drawn for possible futures of multilateralism. Throughout, he challenges us to consider how governance itself is shaped by ideological assumptions, questioning the analytical ‘boxes’ that define the field. Philipp is Professor of Transnational Environmental Governance at VU Amsterdam and Director of the Amsterdam Sustainability Institute. His research focuses on climate governance, biodiversity policy, and institutional change in global sustainability governance. He has published extensively in leading journals, including Global Governance, Global Environmental Politics and Environmental Policy and Governance, and is the author of Private Institutions and Global Governance and Environmental Politics and Governance in the Anthropocene (with Frank Biermann). Philipp’s VU Amsterdam profile can be found here: https://research.vu.nl/en/persons/ph-pattberg We discussed: • ’20 Years of global climate change governance research: taking stock and moving forward’, International Environment Agreements (2022). With Cille Kaiser, Oscar Widerberg and Johannes Stripple. • ‘Forum: Global Governance: Decline or Maturation of an Academic Concept?’ International Studies Review (2010). With Hans Overbeek, Klaus Dingwerth and Daniel Compagnon. • ‘The Fragmentation of Global Governance Architectures: A Framework for Analysis’, Global Environmental Politics (2009). With Frank Biermann, Harro van Asselt and Fariborz Zelli. • ‘Global Governance as a Perspective on World Politics’, Global Governance (2006). With Klaus Dingwerth.

Jonathan Blake and Nils Gilman join us to discuss their recent book, Children of a Modest Star: Planetary Thinking for an Age of Crises, in which they propose a framework of "planetary thinking" to address the interconnected crises facing humanity. Drawing on historical lessons from the COVID-19 pandemic, the International Atomic Energy Agency, and the eradication of smallpox, among other examples, Blake and Gilman advocate for moving beyond traditional state-centered responses. They urge a reorientation toward systemic, planetary-scale challenges that acknowledge humanity’s deep entanglement with ecological and biogeochemical systems. In this episode, we explore why "planetarity" is an idea whose time has come, the limitations of anthropocentric institutions, the practicalities of planetary governance in a world marked by socio-political differences, and the critical role of new epistemological frameworks in addressing climate change, biodiversity loss, and global security. Jonathan Blake is the Associate Director of Programs at the Berggruen Institute, where he oversees research projects and the broader research agenda for the Planetary Program. A political scientist with a PhD from UC Berkeley, his work focuses on planetary politics, ethnic conflict, and migration, among other topics. His writing has appeared in Noema, where he serves as Associate Editor, as well as in The Atlantic, Boston Review, The Nation, Los Angeles Review of Books, and various academic journals. Nils Gilman is the Chief Operating Officer and Executive Vice President at the Berggruen Institute and also serves as Deputy Editor of Noema Magazine. He is the author of Mandarins of the Future: Modernization Theory in Cold War America (2004), Deviant Globalization: Black Market Economy in the 21st Century (2011), and Children of a Modest Star: Planetary Thinking for an Age of Crises (2024). Holding a Bachelor’s, Master’s, and Doctorate in History from UC Berkeley, Gilman is a historian and political theorist with a career spanning academia and consultancy in international security. His work has contributed to foundational insights on climate security and governance, and his writings frequently explore the limitations of current institutions in addressing planetary-scale crises, positioning him as a leading voice in reimagining governance frameworks for the Anthropocene. Jonathan tweets @jonathansblake: https://x.com/jonathansblake Nils tweets @nils_gilman: https://x.com/nils_gilman We discussed: Children of a Modest Star: Planetary Thinking for an Age of Crises (Stanford University Press, 2024): https://www.sup.org/books/politics/children-modest-star

In this episode, we welcome one of the foremost scholars in international relations to the podcast, Professor Martha Finnemore. Recognized globally for her pioneering contributions to the field, Finnemore recently received the 2023 Johan Skytte Prize in Political Science alongside Alexander Wendt. This prestigious accolade celebrates their groundbreaking work in constructivism, a theory that has reshaped how we understand international politics by emphasizing the role of shared ideas and norms. In this episode, Finnemore reflects on the journey and impact of constructivism, tracing its rise from a niche critique to a central framework in global governance. We explore the intellectual and real-world challenges of persuading a discipline once dominated by materialist paradigms to take seriously the power of ideas. With enviable clarity, she explains how constructivism reveals the social underpinnings of power, from norms shaping cybersecurity to the shared authority in the governance of AI. Martha Finnemore is University Professor of Political Science and International Affairs at George Washington University. A leading scholar in global governance, international organizations, and social theory, her award-winning books include Rules for the World and The Purpose of Intervention. Her research has appeared in top journals like International Organization and World Politics. A Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, she has held research appointments at Brookings and Stanford and received fellowships from the MacArthur Foundation and the United States Institute of Peace. Martha’s GWU profile can be found here: https://elliott.gwu.edu/martha-finnemore We discussed: The Skytte Prize citation: https://www.skytteprize.com/prize-laureates/martha-finnemore-and-alexander-wendt Who Governs the Globe (with Deborah Avant and Susan K. Sell): https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/who-governs-the-globe/6B6B62E4C2E00E560DF3B2B35E79C839 Rules for the World: International Organizations in Global Politics (with Michael Barnett): https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9780801488238/rules-for-the-world/

Join me and some of our amazing UCL students as we delve into the world of global governance! Olivia Crosby, Oliver Parker, and Rachel Dodimead, all part of the MSc in Global Governance and Ethics in the Department of Political Science at University College London, chat about what it’s like studying here, their favourite moments from the year, and their aspirations for the future. We talk about their year full of discoveries, heaps of reading, hard work, and an eventful international trip to Geneva. As they wrap up their classes and start their research projects (and look for jobs!), it’s the perfect time to reflect on everything they’ve learned and what makes their group (and global governance) so special. The MSc Global Governance and Ethics website can be found here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/political-scien... UCL Political Science can be found here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/political-science/ UCL Global Governance Institute: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/global-governance/ UCL Global Governance Futures: Imperfect Utopias or Bust? podcast: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/global-governan... We discussed: Bonnita Roy – We Need to Watch Each Other Grow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMyXBSHoL3s&t=0s

Craig Murphy and Jonathan Rowson join us for a dialogue on global politics and the metacrisis, using as a springboard for this conversation the essay ‘Prefixing the World: Why the polycrisis is a permacrisis, which is actually a metacrisis, which is not really a crisis at all’, published by Jonathan on his Substack blog in late 2023. Craig recently participated in a panel on Crisis in Global Governance at the International Studies Association annual meeting where he engaged with Jonathan’s work in his remarks, seeing certain affinities between Jonathan’s claim that all global problems of the moment are connected to a single source, a single metacrisis and Craig’s own insights into the importance of grappling with the possible interconnections across global problems if problem solvers are going to develop the kind of complex solidarity that is likely to be essential to any adequate response to the daunting challenges of our times. We were honoured to be able to bring these two distinguished scholars and authors together for a far-reaching and deeply meaningful conversation. Craig Murphy is Betty Freyhof Johnson ’44 Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Wellesley College and is a leading light in the fields of international relations and political science, known particularly for his pioneering research on global governance. Jonathan Rowson is Co-founder and Chief Executive of Perspectiva, which is a collective of scholars, artists and activists who produce and publish outputs concerned with understanding the relationship between systems, souls and society in theory and practice. He was previously Director of the Social Brain Centre at the RSA where he authored a range of influential research reports on behaviour change, climate change and spirituality, and curated and chaired a range of related events. Craig’s official website profile can be found here: https://www1.wellesley.edu/politicalscience/faculty/murphy Jonathan’s profile can be found on the Perspectiva website: https://systems-souls-society.com/origin/people/ He tweets @Jonathan_Rowson His essays can also be read at Substack: https://substack.com/@jonathanrowson We discussed: Ursula Le Guin, ‘The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas’, 1973: https://shsdavisapes.pbworks.com/f/Omelas.pdf Geoff Mann, ‘It Was Not Supposed to End This Way’, August 2019: https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/geoff-mann-it-was-not-supposed-end-way/ See our podcast conversation Geoff Mann here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFmOtlbJPts Craig Murphy, ‘Leadership, Global Governance, and Peace’, November 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ_nXvzcOEE Craig Murphy, ‘Engineering Rules’, 2024: https://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title/11653/engineering-rules#:~:text=of%20the%20internet.-,In%20Engineering%20Rules%2C%20JoAnne%20Yates%20and%20Craig%20N.,on%20all%20of%20our%20lives. Kim Stanley Robinson, The Ministry of the Future: https://www.orbitbooks.net/orbit-excerpts/the-ministry-for-the-future/ Jonathan Rowson, ‘Prefixing the World,’ September 2023: https://perspecteeva.substack.com/p/prefixing-the-world Jonathan Rowson, ‘Tasting the Pickle: ten flavours of meta-crisis and the appetite for a new civilisation’, February 2021: https://systems-souls-society.com/tasting-the-pickle-ten-flavours-of-meta-crisis-and-the-appetite-for-a-new-civilisation/ Adam Tooze, ‘Welcome to the world of the polycrisis’, Financial Times, 28 October 2022: https://www.ft.com/content/498398e7-11b1-494b-9cd3-6d669dc3de33

Tim Maughan is a British science fiction writer whose work critically explores the intersections of technology and society. He is perhaps best known for his debut novel, “Infinite Detail,” which was a 2020 Locus Award finalist for best first novel and shortlisted for the British Science Fiction Association Award for Best Novel. "Infinite Detail" presents a prescient examination of the dystopian implications of surveillance capitalism and the fragility of the internet. Prior to this novel, Maughan gained recognition for his short stories, such as those compiled in “Paintwork,” which delve into similar themes of urban culture and future technologies. He has written for TV and film, including being a story producer and writer for the Emmy nominated Netflix show The Future Of. His non-fiction writing and analysis has been published by the BBC, Esquire, MIT Technology Review, New Scientist and Vice, and has included in-person reporting from massive container ships and factories in China, alongside features and commentary on subjects as varied as fashion in the Metaverse and the political impacts of large, complex systems. In 2015 he was the receiver of the Seahorse Award for Supply Chain Journalist of the Year. In this conversation, we reflect on the themes in Infinite Detail, the fragility of technological civilization, and the future direction of our increasingly digital world. Tim’s official website can be found here: https://www.timmaughanbooks.com/ He tweets @timemaughan We discussed: Infinite Detail (2019): https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374175412/infinitedetail The invisible network that keeps the world running (2015): https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150209-the-network-that-runs-the-world

Philip Cunliffe joins us to talk about his recent book ‘The New 20 Year Crisis’ which draws inspiration for the classic 1939 text ‘The 20 Year Crisis’ by E. H. Carr to advance a powerful, incisive critique both of the liberal internationalist project of the past two decades, as well as the discipline of IR itself which beguiled by the ‘unipolar imaginary’ has failed to comprehend the depth of the transformations currently underway in international politics. Philip provocatively argues that we are living through a wholesale structural reconfiguration of the international political order, a reconfiguration which spells the end of ‘the utopian dream of the receding era of unipolarity’. This claim sets the stage for a lively conversation where we touch upon questions of realism versus idealism, the autonomous logic of realpolitik, liberalism post-unipolarity, why Karl Rove is the ultimate constructivist(!), and, ultimately, why a fundamental rethink in how we practice and teach international relations is now essential if we are to fully reckon with rising multipolarity and shifting global power dynamics. Philip Cunliffe is Associate Professor in International Relations at the Institute for Risk & Disaster Reduction, University College London where he researches and teaches on the topics of international order, multinational military intervention and conflict management. He has 20 years of academic experience, having previously worked as a Senior Lecturer at the University of Kent and a Temporary Lecturer at the UK’s Joint Services Command and Staff College. He obtained his PhD in War Studies from King's College London. He has also worked as a contributor to the Economist Intelligence Unit. He is a prolific author and editor, having published eight books and numerous academic articles and chapters on various aspects of international politics and security. He is committed to engaging with the public and the media, and writes for various outlets, including UnHerd, the New Statesman, the Spectator, the Times (London), Daily Telegraph, Compact, among others. He has also appeared on TV and radio including BBC Radio 4 and GB News. Philip co-hosts the @bungacast podcast: https://bungacast.com/ And tweets @thephilippics: https://x.com/thephilippics His Substack is at https://thephilippics.substack: https://thephilippics.substack.com/ Philip’s UCL profile can be found here: https://profiles.ucl.ac.uk/88668-philip-cunliffe/publications We discussed: The New Twenty Years’ Crisis A Critique of International Relations, 1999-2019 (2020): https://www.mqup.ca/new-twenty-years--crisis--the-products-9780228001027.php#:~:text=The%20New%20Twenty%20Years'%20Crisis%20reveals%20that%20the%20liberal%20international,of%20the%20crisis%20are%20internal. Cosmopolitan dystopia International intervention and the failure of the West (2020): https://manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk/9781526105738/