47: Martha Finnemore – The Power of Ideas in Global Politics

Jonathan Blake and Nils Gilman join us to discuss their recent book, Children of a Modest Star: Planetary Thinking for an Age of Crises, in which they propose a framework of "planetary thinking" to address the interconnected crises facing humanity. Drawing on historical lessons from the COVID-19 pandemic, the International Atomic Energy Agency, and the eradication of smallpox, among other examples, Blake and Gilman advocate for moving beyond traditional state-centered responses. They urge a reorientation toward systemic, planetary-scale challenges that acknowledge humanity’s deep entanglement with ecological and biogeochemical systems. In this episode, we explore why "planetarity" is an idea whose time has come, the limitations of anthropocentric institutions, the practicalities of planetary governance in a world marked by socio-political differences, and the critical role of new epistemological frameworks in addressing climate change, biodiversity loss, and global security. Jonathan Blake is the Associate Director of Programs at the Berggruen Institute, where he oversees research projects and the broader research agenda for the Planetary Program. A political scientist with a PhD from UC Berkeley, his work focuses on planetary politics, ethnic conflict, and migration, among other topics. His writing has appeared in Noema, where he serves as Associate Editor, as well as in The Atlantic, Boston Review, The Nation, Los Angeles Review of Books, and various academic journals. Nils Gilman is the Chief Operating Officer and Executive Vice President at the Berggruen Institute and also serves as Deputy Editor of Noema Magazine. He is the author of Mandarins of the Future: Modernization Theory in Cold War America (2004), Deviant Globalization: Black Market Economy in the 21st Century (2011), and Children of a Modest Star: Planetary Thinking for an Age of Crises (2024). Holding a Bachelor’s, Master’s, and Doctorate in History from UC Berkeley, Gilman is a historian and political theorist with a career spanning academia and consultancy in international security. His work has contributed to foundational insights on climate security and governance, and his writings frequently explore the limitations of current institutions in addressing planetary-scale crises, positioning him as a leading voice in reimagining governance frameworks for the Anthropocene. Jonathan tweets @jonathansblake: https://x.com/jonathansblake Nils tweets @nils_gilman: https://x.com/nils_gilman We discussed: Children of a Modest Star: Planetary Thinking for an Age of Crises (Stanford University Press, 2024): https://www.sup.org/books/politics/children-modest-star

In this episode, we welcome one of the foremost scholars in international relations to the podcast, Professor Martha Finnemore. Recognized globally for her pioneering contributions to the field, Finnemore recently received the 2023 Johan Skytte Prize in Political Science alongside Alexander Wendt. This prestigious accolade celebrates their groundbreaking work in constructivism, a theory that has reshaped how we understand international politics by emphasizing the role of shared ideas and norms. In this episode, Finnemore reflects on the journey and impact of constructivism, tracing its rise from a niche critique to a central framework in global governance. We explore the intellectual and real-world challenges of persuading a discipline once dominated by materialist paradigms to take seriously the power of ideas. With enviable clarity, she explains how constructivism reveals the social underpinnings of power, from norms shaping cybersecurity to the shared authority in the governance of AI. Martha Finnemore is University Professor of Political Science and International Affairs at George Washington University. A leading scholar in global governance, international organizations, and social theory, her award-winning books include Rules for the World and The Purpose of Intervention. Her research has appeared in top journals like International Organization and World Politics. A Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, she has held research appointments at Brookings and Stanford and received fellowships from the MacArthur Foundation and the United States Institute of Peace. Martha’s GWU profile can be found here: https://elliott.gwu.edu/martha-finnemore We discussed: The Skytte Prize citation: https://www.skytteprize.com/prize-laureates/martha-finnemore-and-alexander-wendt Who Governs the Globe (with Deborah Avant and Susan K. Sell): https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/who-governs-the-globe/6B6B62E4C2E00E560DF3B2B35E79C839 Rules for the World: International Organizations in Global Politics (with Michael Barnett): https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9780801488238/rules-for-the-world/

Join me and some of our amazing UCL students as we delve into the world of global governance! Olivia Crosby, Oliver Parker, and Rachel Dodimead, all part of the MSc in Global Governance and Ethics in the Department of Political Science at University College London, chat about what it’s like studying here, their favourite moments from the year, and their aspirations for the future. We talk about their year full of discoveries, heaps of reading, hard work, and an eventful international trip to Geneva. As they wrap up their classes and start their research projects (and look for jobs!), it’s the perfect time to reflect on everything they’ve learned and what makes their group (and global governance) so special. The MSc Global Governance and Ethics website can be found here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/political-scien... UCL Political Science can be found here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/political-science/ UCL Global Governance Institute: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/global-governance/ UCL Global Governance Futures: Imperfect Utopias or Bust? podcast: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/global-governan... We discussed: Bonnita Roy – We Need to Watch Each Other Grow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMyXBSHoL3s&t=0s

Craig Murphy and Jonathan Rowson join us for a dialogue on global politics and the metacrisis, using as a springboard for this conversation the essay ‘Prefixing the World: Why the polycrisis is a permacrisis, which is actually a metacrisis, which is not really a crisis at all’, published by Jonathan on his Substack blog in late 2023. Craig recently participated in a panel on Crisis in Global Governance at the International Studies Association annual meeting where he engaged with Jonathan’s work in his remarks, seeing certain affinities between Jonathan’s claim that all global problems of the moment are connected to a single source, a single metacrisis and Craig’s own insights into the importance of grappling with the possible interconnections across global problems if problem solvers are going to develop the kind of complex solidarity that is likely to be essential to any adequate response to the daunting challenges of our times. We were honoured to be able to bring these two distinguished scholars and authors together for a far-reaching and deeply meaningful conversation. Craig Murphy is Betty Freyhof Johnson ’44 Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Wellesley College and is a leading light in the fields of international relations and political science, known particularly for his pioneering research on global governance. Jonathan Rowson is Co-founder and Chief Executive of Perspectiva, which is a collective of scholars, artists and activists who produce and publish outputs concerned with understanding the relationship between systems, souls and society in theory and practice. He was previously Director of the Social Brain Centre at the RSA where he authored a range of influential research reports on behaviour change, climate change and spirituality, and curated and chaired a range of related events. Craig’s official website profile can be found here: https://www1.wellesley.edu/politicalscience/faculty/murphy Jonathan’s profile can be found on the Perspectiva website: https://systems-souls-society.com/origin/people/ He tweets @Jonathan_Rowson His essays can also be read at Substack: https://substack.com/@jonathanrowson We discussed: Ursula Le Guin, ‘The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas’, 1973: https://shsdavisapes.pbworks.com/f/Omelas.pdf Geoff Mann, ‘It Was Not Supposed to End This Way’, August 2019: https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/geoff-mann-it-was-not-supposed-end-way/ See our podcast conversation Geoff Mann here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFmOtlbJPts Craig Murphy, ‘Leadership, Global Governance, and Peace’, November 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ_nXvzcOEE Craig Murphy, ‘Engineering Rules’, 2024: https://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title/11653/engineering-rules#:~:text=of%20the%20internet.-,In%20Engineering%20Rules%2C%20JoAnne%20Yates%20and%20Craig%20N.,on%20all%20of%20our%20lives. Kim Stanley Robinson, The Ministry of the Future: https://www.orbitbooks.net/orbit-excerpts/the-ministry-for-the-future/ Jonathan Rowson, ‘Prefixing the World,’ September 2023: https://perspecteeva.substack.com/p/prefixing-the-world Jonathan Rowson, ‘Tasting the Pickle: ten flavours of meta-crisis and the appetite for a new civilisation’, February 2021: https://systems-souls-society.com/tasting-the-pickle-ten-flavours-of-meta-crisis-and-the-appetite-for-a-new-civilisation/ Adam Tooze, ‘Welcome to the world of the polycrisis’, Financial Times, 28 October 2022: https://www.ft.com/content/498398e7-11b1-494b-9cd3-6d669dc3de33

Tim Maughan is a British science fiction writer whose work critically explores the intersections of technology and society. He is perhaps best known for his debut novel, “Infinite Detail,” which was a 2020 Locus Award finalist for best first novel and shortlisted for the British Science Fiction Association Award for Best Novel. "Infinite Detail" presents a prescient examination of the dystopian implications of surveillance capitalism and the fragility of the internet. Prior to this novel, Maughan gained recognition for his short stories, such as those compiled in “Paintwork,” which delve into similar themes of urban culture and future technologies. He has written for TV and film, including being a story producer and writer for the Emmy nominated Netflix show The Future Of. His non-fiction writing and analysis has been published by the BBC, Esquire, MIT Technology Review, New Scientist and Vice, and has included in-person reporting from massive container ships and factories in China, alongside features and commentary on subjects as varied as fashion in the Metaverse and the political impacts of large, complex systems. In 2015 he was the receiver of the Seahorse Award for Supply Chain Journalist of the Year. In this conversation, we reflect on the themes in Infinite Detail, the fragility of technological civilization, and the future direction of our increasingly digital world. Tim’s official website can be found here: https://www.timmaughanbooks.com/ He tweets @timemaughan We discussed: Infinite Detail (2019): https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374175412/infinitedetail The invisible network that keeps the world running (2015): https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150209-the-network-that-runs-the-world

Philip Cunliffe joins us to talk about his recent book ‘The New 20 Year Crisis’ which draws inspiration for the classic 1939 text ‘The 20 Year Crisis’ by E. H. Carr to advance a powerful, incisive critique both of the liberal internationalist project of the past two decades, as well as the discipline of IR itself which beguiled by the ‘unipolar imaginary’ has failed to comprehend the depth of the transformations currently underway in international politics. Philip provocatively argues that we are living through a wholesale structural reconfiguration of the international political order, a reconfiguration which spells the end of ‘the utopian dream of the receding era of unipolarity’. This claim sets the stage for a lively conversation where we touch upon questions of realism versus idealism, the autonomous logic of realpolitik, liberalism post-unipolarity, why Karl Rove is the ultimate constructivist(!), and, ultimately, why a fundamental rethink in how we practice and teach international relations is now essential if we are to fully reckon with rising multipolarity and shifting global power dynamics. Philip Cunliffe is Associate Professor in International Relations at the Institute for Risk & Disaster Reduction, University College London where he researches and teaches on the topics of international order, multinational military intervention and conflict management. He has 20 years of academic experience, having previously worked as a Senior Lecturer at the University of Kent and a Temporary Lecturer at the UK’s Joint Services Command and Staff College. He obtained his PhD in War Studies from King's College London. He has also worked as a contributor to the Economist Intelligence Unit. He is a prolific author and editor, having published eight books and numerous academic articles and chapters on various aspects of international politics and security. He is committed to engaging with the public and the media, and writes for various outlets, including UnHerd, the New Statesman, the Spectator, the Times (London), Daily Telegraph, Compact, among others. He has also appeared on TV and radio including BBC Radio 4 and GB News. Philip co-hosts the @bungacast podcast: https://bungacast.com/ And tweets @thephilippics: https://x.com/thephilippics His Substack is at https://thephilippics.substack: https://thephilippics.substack.com/ Philip’s UCL profile can be found here: https://profiles.ucl.ac.uk/88668-philip-cunliffe/publications We discussed: The New Twenty Years’ Crisis A Critique of International Relations, 1999-2019 (2020): https://www.mqup.ca/new-twenty-years--crisis--the-products-9780228001027.php#:~:text=The%20New%20Twenty%20Years'%20Crisis%20reveals%20that%20the%20liberal%20international,of%20the%20crisis%20are%20internal. Cosmopolitan dystopia International intervention and the failure of the West (2020): https://manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk/9781526105738/

Professor Giorgio Savini is an astrophysicist at University College London, specialising in instrumentation for space exploration. As a key figure at UCL’s Department of Physics and Astronomy, his work bridges the gap between astrophysics and engineering, focusing on the development of cutting-edge technologies for space telescopes and satellite systems. He has been involved in major international consortiums, including working on the Planck Probe’s High Frequency Instrument and currently serving as Payload Scientist on the European Space Agency ARIEL mission. In this conversation, we delve into the practical implications of space governance on the work of scientists and technicians tasked with pushing the frontiers of space exploration, why the 1967 Outer Space Treaty is not fit for purposes, the very real dangers posed by Kessler Syndrome (space debris), and what global governance should have to do with it. Giorgio’s official profile can be found here: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/physics-astronomy/people/professor-giorgio-savini We discussed: The Outer Space Treaty, 1967: https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/introouterspacetreaty.html The Moon Agreement, 1984: https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/spacelaw/treaties/intromoon-agreement.html The Artemis Accords, 2020: https://www.nasa.gov/artemis-accords/

Deborah Avant is the Sié Chéou-Kang Chair for International Security and Diplomacy at the Josef Korbel School of International Studies, University of Denver. She is a distinguished scholar in the field of international relations, renowned for her expertise in global governance, security studies, and civil-military relations. Her groundbreaking 2005 book, The Market for Force: The Consequences of Privatizing Security earned her widespread acclaim and shone an important light on privatization of military services and its implications for global security. Her current research uses network and pragmatic theory to understand how security and governance are actually conducted – both historically and in the contemporary world. In this conversation, we reflect on the role of private military companies and the aftermath of the Iraq War. challenges and opportunities in security studies, the role of academia in addressing global crises, the importance of questioning conventional wisdom, and much more. Deborah’s official profile can be found here: https://korbel.du.edu/about/directory/deborah-avant We discussed: The Market for Force: The Consequences of Privatizing Security, 2005: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/market-for-force/0EAE220EDCBF4ADF88F97B6F7B1BDD10 Who Governs the Globe (with M. Finnemore and S. Sell), 2010: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/who-governs-the-globe/6B6B62E4C2E00E560DF3B2B35E79C839 The Ethics of Engaged Scholarship in a Complex World, 2024: https://academic.oup.com/ia/article-abstract/100/1/159/7506709?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Professor Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im is the Charles Howard Candler Professor of Law Emeritus at Emory Law, associated professor in the Emory College of Arts and Sciences, and senior fellow of the Center for the Study of Law and Religion of Emory University. A world-renowned scholar of Islam and human rights and human rights in cross-cultural perspectives, An-Na'im teaches courses in international law, comparative law, human rights, and Islamic law. His research interests include constitutionalism in Islamic and African countries, secularism, Islam and politics and human rights. Our conversation was inspired by his latest book, Decolonizing Human Rights, which challenges both historical interpretations of Islamic Sharia and neocolonial understanding of human rights. Abdullahi proposes a transformation from human rights organised around state-determined practice to one that is focused on what he calls a “people-centric” approach that empowers individuals to decide how human rights will be understood and integrated into their communities. This argument serves as the starting point for our conversation on the complexities, paradoxes and cultural dimensions that challenge a traditional Western perspective on human rights and invites inquiry into what a decolonized, culturally-inclusive alternative might look like. Abdullahi’s official profile can be found here: https://law.emory.edu/faculty/faculty-emeritus/annaim-emeritus-profile.html We discussed: Decolonizing Human Rights, 2021: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/decolonizing-human-rights/decolonizing-human-rights/1A39889DEDE614E07D18FFF988BF085F Human Rights and its Inherent Liberal Relativism, 2019: https://goldsmithspress.pubpub.org/pub/v1c6tsos/release/1 Human Rights in Cross-Cultural Perspectives: A Quest for Consensus, 2010: https://muse.jhu.edu/book/340

Professor Cynthia Enloe is a Research Professor in the Department of Sustainability and Social Justice at Clark University in Worcester, Massachusetts. Cynthia is one of the leading voices on gender and militarism, as well as one of the main proponents of feminist international relations. With fifteen published books and numerous awards to her name, Cynthia is a passionate lecturer and activist, dedicated to raising awareness about how feminist and gendered perspectives have shaped both national and international political discourse. Her contribution to advancing gender justice in international politics has been recognised by the inclusion on the Gender Justice Legacy Wall unveiled at the International Criminal Court at The Hague. Our conversation was inspired by her latest book, Twelve Feminist Lessons of War, which urges us to contemplate and maintain curiosity about the diverse realities of women’s wartime lived realities. In a world marked by conflict, Cynthia emphasises the need to acknowledge that “women’s wars are not men’s wars” as a foundation for building enduring peace. This principle serves as the starting point for our conversation on the gendered experiences of war, hierarchies of femininities and masculinities, and the importance of transnational feminist solidarity. Cynthia can be found here: https://www.clarku.edu/faculty/profiles/cynthia-enloe/ We discussed: • Twelve Feminist Lessons of War (London: Footnote Press; Berkeley: University of California Press), 2023. • Bananas, Beaches and Bases: Making Feminist Sense of International Politics (Berkley: University of California Press), 2014. • The Curious Feminist: Searching for Women in a New Age of Empire (Berkley: University of California Press), 2004. • Maneuvers: The International Politics of Militarizing Women's Lives (Berkley: University of California Press), 2000.