36: Geoff Mann – It Was Not Supposed To End This Way

Professor Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im is the Charles Howard Candler Professor of Law Emeritus at Emory Law, associated professor in the Emory College of Arts and Sciences, and senior fellow of the Center for the Study of Law and Religion of Emory University. A world-renowned scholar of Islam and human rights and human rights in cross-cultural perspectives, An-Na'im teaches courses in international law, comparative law, human rights, and Islamic law. His research interests include constitutionalism in Islamic and African countries, secularism, Islam and politics and human rights. Our conversation was inspired by his latest book, Decolonizing Human Rights, which challenges both historical interpretations of Islamic Sharia and neocolonial understanding of human rights. Abdullahi proposes a transformation from human rights organised around state-determined practice to one that is focused on what he calls a “people-centric” approach that empowers individuals to decide how human rights will be understood and integrated into their communities. This argument serves as the starting point for our conversation on the complexities, paradoxes and cultural dimensions that challenge a traditional Western perspective on human rights and invites inquiry into what a decolonized, culturally-inclusive alternative might look like. Abdullahi’s official profile can be found here: https://law.emory.edu/faculty/faculty-emeritus/annaim-emeritus-profile.html We discussed: Decolonizing Human Rights, 2021: https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/decolonizing-human-rights/decolonizing-human-rights/1A39889DEDE614E07D18FFF988BF085F Human Rights and its Inherent Liberal Relativism, 2019: https://goldsmithspress.pubpub.org/pub/v1c6tsos/release/1 Human Rights in Cross-Cultural Perspectives: A Quest for Consensus, 2010: https://muse.jhu.edu/book/340

Professor Cynthia Enloe is a Research Professor in the Department of Sustainability and Social Justice at Clark University in Worcester, Massachusetts. Cynthia is one of the leading voices on gender and militarism, as well as one of the main proponents of feminist international relations. With fifteen published books and numerous awards to her name, Cynthia is a passionate lecturer and activist, dedicated to raising awareness about how feminist and gendered perspectives have shaped both national and international political discourse. Her contribution to advancing gender justice in international politics has been recognised by the inclusion on the Gender Justice Legacy Wall unveiled at the International Criminal Court at The Hague. Our conversation was inspired by her latest book, Twelve Feminist Lessons of War, which urges us to contemplate and maintain curiosity about the diverse realities of women’s wartime lived realities. In a world marked by conflict, Cynthia emphasises the need to acknowledge that “women’s wars are not men’s wars” as a foundation for building enduring peace. This principle serves as the starting point for our conversation on the gendered experiences of war, hierarchies of femininities and masculinities, and the importance of transnational feminist solidarity. Cynthia can be found here: https://www.clarku.edu/faculty/profiles/cynthia-enloe/ We discussed: • Twelve Feminist Lessons of War (London: Footnote Press; Berkeley: University of California Press), 2023. • Bananas, Beaches and Bases: Making Feminist Sense of International Politics (Berkley: University of California Press), 2014. • The Curious Feminist: Searching for Women in a New Age of Empire (Berkley: University of California Press), 2004. • Maneuvers: The International Politics of Militarizing Women's Lives (Berkley: University of California Press), 2000.

Bonnitta Roy is an author and a teacher. Her work focuses on breaking away from limiting patterns of thought. She is the founder of Alderlore Insight Centre, a non-profit educational organisation focusing on secondary education and insight training for post-formal thinkers. She is Professor in Residence for the MA in Consciousness Studies and Transpersonal Psychology at the Graduate Institute, and an Associate Editor of Integral Review. Bonnitta is among a brilliant cast of metamodern thinkers. In this regard, her work considers how the sense of crisis many of us feel has as much to do with how we perceive the world as with what goes on within it. We are living through a period of disruptive change and Bonnitta sees these times as an invitation to grapple with the limitations of our inherited toolbox of linear and causal ways of thinking. In this episode we reflect on the limitations of human consciousness and discuss the potential for good that stems from reimagining the way we think. Bonnitta’s work can be found here: https://bonnittaroy.substack.com/ https://www.kosmosjournal.org/contributor/bonnitta-roy/ https://tllp.org/people/bonnitta-roy/ https://systems-souls-society.com/origin/people/ Keep up with Bonnitta on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bonnittaroy We discussed: “Complex Potential States: A theory of Change that can account for beauty and generate life” in The Side View, November 2021 https://thesideview.co/journal/complex-potential-states/ “Time, Change and Causality: Notes toward metamorphosis of mind” in Dispatches from a Time Between Worlds: Crisis and emergence in metamoderntiy (Pespectiva, 2021) (ed. Jonathan Rowson & Layman Pascal)

Professor Michael Barnett is University Professor of International Affairs and Political Science at the George Washington University. Michael is one of the leading International Relations scholars of his generation and a major figure in the field of humanitarianism, global governance, global ethics and the United Nations. He has set the coordinates for major debates in the field, including investigation of the sometimes positive, sometimes pernicious effects of international organisations on global politics, as well as bringing issues of institutional bias, privilege and power inequity to the fore when thinking about global governance. Among his many books are Eyewitness to a Genocide: The United Nations and Rwanda; Empire of Humanity: A History of Humanitarianism; Rules for the World: International Organizations in World Politics (with Martha Finnemore); and Power and Global Governance (co-edited with Raymond Duvall). In this podcast we talk about humanitarian intervention, the liberal biases of the post-Cold War and whether global governance has reached its sell-by-date. Michael can be found here: https://elliott.gwu.edu/michael-barnett We also discussed: ‘Is Israel on the Precipice of Genocide?’ Political Violence at a Glance, 6 March 2023: https://politicalviolenceataglance.org/2023/03/06/is-israel-on-the-precipice-of-genocide/ ‘COVID-19 and the Sacrificial International Order’, International Organization, 2020: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-organization/article/covid19-and-the-sacrificial-international-order/7D64519B3541BD20C77D4DE82702243F ‘Accountability and global governance: The view from paternalism’, Regulation & Governance, 2016: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/rego.12083 Power in Global Governance, Cambridge University Press, 2005 (with Raymond Duvall).

Professor Geoff Mann is Distinguished Professor of Geography at Simon Fraser University, Vancouver BC. Geoff is an award-winning political economist and writer, known as a leading researcher on the historical development and future trajectory of economic governance set against the backdrop of the climate crisis. He is a senior fellow at the Institute for New Economic Thinking and a 2022 recipient of a Guggenheim Fellowship award for his contributions to his field. Among many publications, the book Climate Leviathan: A Political Theory of Our Planetary Future (Verso, 2018) (with Joel Wainwright) is a vital referent point for anyone interested in the radical political consequences of climate change. But it is the quite brilliant 2019 article in the Boston Review ‘It Was Not Supposed to End This Way’ and his intriguing claim that ‘the tragedy of liberalism is its inability to narrate the end progress’ which serves as the point of departure for our conversation. In this podcast we talk about the scale and depth of the challenge posed by the Anthropocene, the impossible ‘We’, the tragedy of liberalism, and where we might look for alternative stories to narrate the end of progress, and much, much more. Geoff can be found here: https://www.sfu.ca/geography/about/our-people/profiles/Geoff-Mann.html And tweets @GeoffPMann: https://twitter.com/GeoffPMann We discussed: ‘Markets Won’t Stop Fossil Fuels’, Dissent Magazine, Spring 2023: https://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/markets-wont-stop-fossil-fuels/ ‘It Was Not Supposed to End This Way’, Boston Review, 13 August 2019: https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/geoff-mann-it-was-not-supposed-end-way/ Climate Leviathan: A Political Theory of Our Planetary Future (Verso, 2018) (with Joel Wainwright): https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/products/520-climate-leviathan

Professor David Kennedy is the Manley O. Hudson Professor of Law and Faculty Director of the Institute for Global Law and Policy at Harvard Law School. Described by prominent historian Samuel Moyn as “the single most important innovator in international legal thought of the past several decades,” David is renowned for his penetrating and critical analysis of the place of law in global governance. He is the author of numerous books and articles exploring issues of global governance, human rights, development policy and the nature of professional expertise. His most recent book with Harvard University Press, Of Law and the World, is a searching dialogue between himself and close associate and renowned critical legal scholar in his own right, Professor Martti Koskenniemi: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674290785 In this conversation we talk about a political economy approach to global governance, what international law has got to do with it, experts and lawyers as “governors,” the role of critical scholarship, and much, much more. David can be found here: https://hls.harvard.edu/faculty/david-w-kennedy/ We discussed: A World of Struggle: How Power, Law and Expertise Shape Global Political Economy, Princeton University Press (2016): https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691146782/a-world-of-struggle Interview with David Kennedy, “Global Governance in Crisis Time,” 25 June 2020: https://www.centeronnationalsecurity.org/vital-interests-issue-37-david-kennedy “The mystery of global governance,” Ohio Northern University Law Review, vol. 34 (2008): http://iglp.law.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Kennedy_GlobalGovernance.pdf The Rights of Spring: A Memoir of Innocence Abroad, Princeton University Press (2009): https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691141381/the-rights-of-spring

Dr Rhoda E. Howard-Hassmann is Canada Research Chair in International Human Rights and Professor Emeritus at the Department of Political Science and the School of International Policy and Governance (Balsillie School of International Affairs), Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario, Canada. A sociologist by training, Professor Howard-Hassmann is widely recognized as a leading interdisciplinary scholar in the field of human rights, named in 2006 the first Distinguished Scholar of Human Rights by the Human Rights Section, American Political Science Association and in 2014 a Distinguished Scholar of Human Rights by the Human Rights Section of the International Studies Association. In this conversation we talk about the universality of human rights, women’s rights, citizenship apartheid, cultural relativism, the limits of philosophy, and much, much more. Rhoda can be found here: https://www.wlu.ca/academics/faculties/faculty-of-arts/faculty-profiles/rhoda-e-howard-hassmann/index.html She blogs at: https://rhodahassmann.blogspot.com/ We discussed: 2018. In Defense of Universal Human Rights: https://www.wiley.com/en-us/In+Defense+of+Universal+Human+Rights-p-9781509513536 2021. ‘A new hope for human rights.’ Journal of Human Rights: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14754835.2021.1920896?journalCode=cjhr20 2021. ‘Human Rights: What Does the Future Hold?’ (by Daniel Braaten). International Studies Review: https://academic.oup.com/isr/article-abstract/23/3/1164/6041199?login=false Image: Frans Francken (II) - Mankind's Eternal Dilemma – The Choice Between Virtue and Vice

Professor Thomas Oatley is the Corasaniti-Zondorak Chair of International Relations at Tulane University. He focuses his research and teaching on the intersection of American hegemony and international political economy (IPE). Widely regarded as a scholar at the leading-edge of IPE research, Thomas has in recent years adopted an explicit complex systems frame to undergird a powerful critique of orthodox IPE and international relations approaches to studying the global economy and world order. In this conversation we talk about the value of thinking in terms of complex systems, why complexity theory remains on the margins of global political scholarship, the nexus between our global financial and energy systems, green industrial policy and much, much more. Thomas can be found here: https://liberalarts.tulane.edu/departments/political-science/people/thomas-oatley He tweets @thoatley We discussed: ‘Energy and the Complexity of International Order’, Global Environmental Politics (2021): https://direct.mit.edu/glep/article-abstract/21/4/20/107829/Energy-and-the-Complexity-of-International-Order ‘Green industrial policy and the global transformation of climate politics’ (with B. Allan and J. I. Lewis), Global Environmental Politics (2021): https://direct.mit.edu/glep/article/21/4/1/107853/Green-Industrial-Policy-and-the-Global ‘Toward a political economy of complex interdependence’, European Journal of International Relations (2019): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1354066119846553?journalCode=ejta Joseph Tainter, The Collapse of Complex Societies (1990): https://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/archaeology/archaeological-theory-and-methods/collapse-complex-societies?format=PB&isbn=9780521386739

Professor Sheldon Solomon is the Ross Professor for Interdisciplinary Studies at Skidmore College, New York. Professor Sheldon is one of the true pioneers in the fields of social and evolutionary psychology. Best known for developing terror management theory (TMT), along with Jess Greenberg and Tom Pyszczynski, Sheldon and colleagues have revolutionised our understanding of how humans deal with their own sense of mortality and the often destructive effects of ‘death denial’ on individual and collective behaviour. An engaging speaker and raconteur, in more recent years Sheldon has turned his attention to how death anxiety might be related to the anthropocene and the insatiable appetite of humans for more, whether that be cheap energy or lethal consumption. In this conversation we talk about why death denial is so pervasive, evidence underpinning TMT, death and the Hobbesian imperative in global politics, hope without optimism, Epicurus, Heidegger and much, much more. Solomon can be found here: https://www.skidmore.edu/psychology/faculty/solomon.php We discussed: ‘Death Denial in the Anthropocene’ In the book: K. Zywert & Stephen Quilley (eds.), Health in the Anthropocene: Living Well on a Finite Planet (University of Toronto Press, 2020): https://utorontopress.com/9781487524142/health-in-the-anthropocene/ The Worm at the Core: On The Role of Death in Life (with Jeff Greenberg and Tom Pyszczynski) (Penguin/Random House, 2015): https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/170217/the-worm-at-the-core-by-sheldon-solomon-jeff-greenberg-and-tom-pyszczynski/ Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death (Free Press/Macmillan, 1973): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death Flight from Death, 2003 documentary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_from_Death

Adrienne Buller is the Director of Research at Common Wealth, an organization focused on promoting democratic ownership to transform how the economy operates and for whom. Adrienne has recently published ‘The Value of a Whale: On the Illusions of Green Capitalism’ (2022), offering a deep dive into the fatal biases that have shaped the response of our governing institutions to climate and environmental breakdown. Tracing the intricate connections between financial power, economic injustice and ecological crisis, she exposes the myopic economism and market-centric thinking presently undermining a future where all life can flourish. Adrienne also has significant experience at the coalface of climate policy advocacy, having served as the Co-Director of the campaign group Labour for a Green New Deal through 2017 and 2018. Adrienne holds an MSc in Global Governance and Ethics from our very own University College London and a Bachelor of Science from McGill University. We discussed ‘The Value of a Whale,’ the flaws in mainstream climate and environmental governance, corporate ‘green growth’ mindsets, the commodification of nature. and much, much more. Adrienne tweets @adribuller: https://twitter.com/adribuller Publications: The Value of a Whale: On the Illusions of Green Capitalism (Manchester University Press, 2022): https://manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk/9781526162632/ Owning the Future: Power and Property in an Age of Crisis (with Matthew Laurence) (Verso Books, 2022): https://www.versobooks.com/books/3981-owning-the-future