The Limits of Rationality & the Enduring Power of Myth with YANN MARTEL

“Storytelling, which is a very whole person kind of activity, is one that delivers all kinds of truths. It's on the factual ground of reality that we build our cathedrals and our castles that we live in. And those are not just made of facts. They're made of other kinds of truths that make the stories of who we are, the cities we live in, the languages we speak—these are made of fact and fiction together, and those are the stories that define our lives.”My guest today is Yann Martel,the internationally acclaimed author best known for his Booker Prize-winning Life of Pi and weaving philosophy, imagination, and profound human questions into unforgettable stories. His new novel, Son of Nobody, is a feat of literary imagination. Written in Homer-esque verses and layered with footnotes, the book draws us into the voice of a Greek storyteller while simultaneously mirroring our own present moment. It’s a work rich with history and intertextual echoes—ancient stories resurfacing in modern life, reminding us how deeply the past still speaks through us.At its heart, Son of Nobody isa meditation on life, death, grief, and the fragile ways our human vanity can cloud our search for meaning. Through myth, memory, and philosophical storytelling, Martel explores what it means to long for home, to wrestle with ambition, and to confront loss. It’s a deeply moving reflection on how ancient tales—told and retold across centuries—can still teach us compassion, humility, and perhaps the courage to recognize that we can be nobody and still matter. It’s a beautiful, sometimes haunting story about what we can learn from the past when it comes to homesickness, love, grief, and ambition—and about remembering to value what we have before the search for more blinds us to it.(0:00) Why is there human suffering? Why humanizing conflict is essential to understanding it(5:48) The Limits of Rationality & Magical Thinking Why pure logic fails to answer life's deepest philosophical questions(6:41) Education is Everything(8:59) Why War Needs Stories How individual narratives help us comprehend the true tragedy of conflict(9:44) Facts vs. Truth in Storytelling How psychological and emotional truths surpass factual accuracy(11:47) The Iliad vs. The Gospels (15:21) The Heroism of Translators(16:03) AI vs. Human Creativity(17:07) Animals as Ambassadors of the Wild (18:08) Art, Religion and Ways to Go BeyondEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podInsta @creativeprocesspodcast

Why do ancient myths still hold the answers to our modern anxieties? When faced with inexplicable grief or the incomprehensible scale of modern war, where does rationality fail us? Can the stories of our past save our future?My guest today is Yann Martel, the internationally acclaimed author best known for his Booker Prize-winning Life of Pi and weaving philosophy, imagination, and profound human questions into unforgettable stories. His new novel, Son of Nobody, is a feat of literary imagination. Written in Homer-esque verses and layered with footnotes, the book draws us into the voice of a Greek storyteller while simultaneously mirroring our own present moment. It’s a work rich with history and intertextual echoes—ancient stories resurfacing in modern life, reminding us how deeply the past still speaks through us.At its heart, Son of Nobody is a meditation on life, death, grief, and the fragile ways our human vanity can cloud our search for meaning. Through myth, memory, and philosophical storytelling, Martel explores what it means to long for home, to wrestle with ambition, and to confront loss. It’s a deeply moving reflection on how ancient tales—told and retold across centuries—can still teach us compassion, humility, and perhaps the courage to recognize that we can be nobody and still matter. It’s a beautiful, sometimes haunting story about what we can learn from the past when it comes to homesickness, love, grief, and ambition—and about remembering to value what we have before the search for more blinds us to it.(0:00) Why is there human suffering? Why humanizing conflict is essential to understanding it(02:14) Introduction to Son of Nobody, Yann Martel’s latest mythic novel(04:20) The Limits of Rationality & Magical Thinking Why pure logic fails to answer life's deepest philosophical questions(09:48) Why Greek Myths Still Speak to Us The universal relevance of ancient stories(13:38) The Heroism of Translators(18:32) Facts vs. Truth in Storytelling How psychological and emotional truths surpass factual accuracy(21:23) Why War Needs Stories(24:38) Reflections on Iran and Modern Conflict(30:35) The Iliad vs. The Gospels(41:26) What Do You Do with the Sadness of Mortals?(45:52) How Life of Pi Changed Martel’s Spiritual Beliefs(51:58) AI vs. Human CreativityEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/pod@creativeprocesspodcast

In the face of devastating state violence, the people of Iran continue to find new ways to resist. From a female marathon runner pacing her cell in prison, to an underground concert staged in defiance of the law, the fight for a free Iran is fought daily with bodies, art and solidarity.In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu speaks with journalist Fatemeh Jamalpour about her book, For the Sun After Long Nights, which she wrote with fellow journalist Nilo Tabrizy. In September 2022, the world learned of the murder of a young Kurdish woman in Iran, Mahsa Jina Amini. Her death, while a captive of the Iranian state, sparked the Woman, Life, Freedom protests. Fatemeh and Nilo’s book frames those protests in the deep tradition of Iranian women leading political movements for rights and freedom, that date back at least a century. They also provide incredibly detailed and moving accounts of the everyday lives of people in Iran who are part of a collective movement under the most oppressive and violent conditions imaginable. Fatemeh talks about the significance of the many ethnic minorities in Iran, the unique role of Gen Z in the protests, and the many ways that women’s bodies have become a powerful weapon in the fight for collective freedom, in places as diverse as prisons and illegal music concerts. Clearing up myths and lies about Iran and the resistance, this is an especially important episode of Speaking Out of Place.(0:00) A Century of Resistance Fatemeh discusses the deep historical roots of the Iranian women's movement(2:58) Becoming a voice for suppressed women(4:15) Sisterhood and Co-Authorship Meeting Niloufar Tabrizi and collaborating across borders(7:15) Interrogations and Writing Documenting state interrogation as an act of defiance and survival(12:45) The Diversity of Iran Highlighting the vital roles of Kurdish, Turkish, Arab, and Baluchi minorities in the struggle(16:15) Personal Freedom vs. Collective Liberation Why returning to a "broken country" was an act of profound love and solidarity(21:15) Gen Z Gamers in the Streets How young Iranians are using online strategy to fight security forces(26:15) Turning Grief into Resistance(29:15) Correcting Western Media Myths(31:15) The Body as a Weapon Women reclaiming their agency through public presence without a hijab(32:20) The Imaginary Concert The story of an illicit, breathtaking public performance in Iran(35:15) The Future of Iranian JournalismEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.comBluesky @palumboliu.bsky.social@speaking_out_of_place

“We're looking at a lot of bad things in American history that we should have been thinking about over the past 50 years. What McCarthyism did, what it targeted with regard to the academic community—and that's really what I know the best—is that during the late 1940s and early 1950s, the focus of political oppression was on people who once were, had previously been near or were affiliated with the American Communist Party. It was focused on individuals who had once been in or near the Communist Party and who were refusing to cooperate with the witch hunt. That was it. That was what McCarthyism did. Today, what we're seeing is an attack on everything.”In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu speaks with Ellen Schrecker, who has been referred to as “the dean of the anti-anti-Communist historians.” Well known for her classic studies of McCarthyism, today Schrecker explains how much worse Trump’s regime is than what we saw in the 1950s and 60s. A fierce defender of democracy, Ellen explains the central role education plays in creating a public culture and in maintaining democracy. Our conversation takes many paths, including an indictment of Capitalism, of the dominance of economistic thinking and values, of the ways university leaders are bending a knee to Trump. We talk about the value of the humanities, the importance of autonomous forms of education and mutual support such as we saw in the pro-Palestinian encampments, and one of the most remarkable differences between the days of McCarthyism—the phenomenon of mass protests like #NoKingsDay.(0:00) The Prequel To The Civil War The threats to education today compared to the 1950s(7:20) Democracy And Education(13:40) Capitalism And Anti-Science How corporate interests fund the suppression of climate science and universities(23:20) The Capitulation Of Leaders Why modern university administrators are giving in to authoritarian blackmail(33:40) The Loss Of Cultural Capital The targeted elimination of the humanities and the arts in higher education(39:20) Unprecedented Resistance Finding hope in modern student politicization and mass protestsEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.comBluesky @palumboliu.bsky.socialInstagram @speaking_out_of_place

"I am a poet without language and an empath without root. I am overflowing in something I do not recognize... something like terror, but still not quite that."In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu talks with poet, activist, and scholar Jamaica Osorio. Shortly after October 7, 2023, she began to write a series of astonishing poems about the war in Gaza and the genocide. Osorio graces us with readings of some of those poems, and engages in a rich, complex, and deeply moving discussion of what went into their composition. Throughout, we talk about the power of poetry to suspend time and allow us the space to contemplate the impossible. We talk about the nature of not knowing, of the inexpressible, and the ways certain poems can give us the strength, energy, and commitment to persist in working for the liberation of all peoples, even when dwelling in grief.Dr. Jamaica Heolimeleikalani Osorio is an Associate Professor of Indigenous and Native Hawaiian Politics at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa. Her award-winning poetry and activism were the subject of the Sundance Film Festival documentary This is the Way we Rise, and she is the author of Remembering our Intimacies: Moʻolelo, Aloha ʻĀina, and Ea, published by The University of Minnesota Press. She believes in the power of aloha ʻāina and collective action to pursue liberatory, abolitionist futures.(0:00) Intro(2:00) The Silence After October 7, Jamaica Osorio discusses the struggle to find language and the pressure to speak out(5:00) The Sounds of Empire in Hawaiʻi Connecting the military helicopters over Pālolo Valley to the skies of Gaza(7:00) Reading "For Palestine"(13:00) Lingering in the Inexpressible Why poetry must offer questions and suspensions rather than simple answers(18:00) Taking Risks and Earning Trust The vulnerability of sharing deeply personal, grief-stricken art with the public(24:30) Reading: "It's Time to Dance" A beautiful meditation on holding the joy of a child alongside the terror of a genocide(29:00) Children as Ancestors and Teachers How Osorio’s daughter teaches her to be fully present in both grief and joy(37:00) Reading: "Rafah Burns" A raw poem about parenthood, weeping with a newborn, and the global resonance of loss(42:00) Finding Connection in the Dark The shared emotional vocabulary of crying when the world becomes incomprehensible(44:00) ʻOnipaʻa: To Be Steadfast(46:00) The Ungovernable Belief in a Better World Why the organizers and poets will outlast the empires that try to dominate themEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.comBluesky @palumboliu.bsky.socialInsta @speaking_out_of_place

Two weeks away from filming her most ambitious film to date, Cherien Dabis and her crew were forced to evacuate Palestine as the devastating events of October 2023 began. Instead of abandoning the project, they adapted, filming across Cyprus, Jordan, and Greece, creating a cinematic love letter to the resilience, joy, and humanity of the Palestinian people.My guest today is Cherien Dabis. She’s a filmmaker and actress who has spent much of her career trying to fill the silences in the American narrative. In 2022, she became the first Palestinian to receive an Emmy nomination. She has worked on everything from The L Word to Ozark, Only Murders in the Building to the hit Netflix series Mo, always with an eye toward breaking the one-dimensional mold that has historically defined Arab representation in the West. But her latest project is perhaps her most ambitious yet. It’s a film called All That’s Left of You. It follows one Palestinian family across three generations, beginning in 1948 and ending in 2022. It is a story of exile and memory, and it’s Jordan’s official submission for this year’s Academy Awards.(0:00) The Inheritance of Trauma Cherien Dabis discusses how collective trauma is passed down and the importance of showing Palestinian resilience and humanity(1:50) Inherited Trauma: Identity And History The passage of trauma requires a multi-generational lens to truly understand how history and political events shape people(2:37) The Bakri Acting Dynasty: Collaborative Lineage Collaborating with four generations of the Bakri Family brought immense authenticity to the screen(4:02) Filming The Nakba: Art Imitating Crisis Evacuating Palestine weeks before shooting forced the crew to adapt amidst devastating, ongoing events(7:09) The Moment Of Activation: Racism In Ohio Experiencing severe racism during the first Gulf War ignited a lifelong drive to challenge dangerous media stereotypes(9:34) Psychological Violence: Impact Of Humiliation The film explores how non-physical harassment and humiliation leave devastating, long-term relational scars(10:48) Broken Distribution: Industry Gatekeepers Navigating systemic fear and gatekeeping in Hollywood distribution remains a profound challenge for Palestinian cinema(11:37) Previous Films, Television And Craft Directing television hones the craft and expands the creative capacity needed for ambitious feature films(12:28) Truth Seekers: The Next Generation Hope lies with young people who refuse to accept the broken systems and hidden truths of previous generationsEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podInstagram:@creativeprocesspodcast

“These oppressive structures are built to strip us of our humanity. One of the ways they do that is by filling us with anger and hatred. If we allow ourselves to stay there, we're doing the job of the oppressor for them by slowly killing ourselves. I wanted to make a movie that would remind people that we can't allow them to win by giving up our humanity. We have to hold onto our humanity and try in these impossible circumstances.”My guest today is Cherien Dabis. She’s a filmmaker and actress who has spent much of her career trying to fill the silences in the American narrative. In 2022, she became the first Palestinian to receive an Emmy nomination. She has worked on everything from The L Word to Ozark, Only Murders in the Building to the hit Netflix series Mo, always with an eye toward breaking the one-dimensional mold that has historically defined Arab representation in the West. But her latest project is perhaps her most ambitious yet. It’s a film called All That’s Left of You. It follows one Palestinian family across three generations, beginning in 1948 and ending in 2022. It is a story of exile and memory, and it’s Jordan’s official submission for this year’s Academy Awards.(0:00) The Inheritance of TraumaCherien Dabis discusses showing the multifaceted humanity of Palestinians beyond just pain and suffering(3:41) Inherited Trauma: Identity And History The film explores how collective trauma is passed down across generations and shapes individual identities(5:52) The Bakri Dynasty: Collaborative Lineage Working with the legendary Bakri Family brought deep, authentic relational dynamics to the screen(9:25) Filming The Nakba: Art Imitating Crisis The crew faced severe challenges and had to evacuate Palestine during the October 2023 escalation(16:10) Representation Gap: Dehumanization In Media Growing up in Ohio, Cherien Dabis witnessed the dangerous misrepresentation of Arabs in Western media(21:24) The Moment Of Activation: Racism In Ohio The stark racism experienced during the first Gulf War ignited her passion to become a filmmaker(33:40) Psychological Violence: Impact Of Humiliation The film depicts how psychological harassment under occupation leaves devastating, long-term impacts on families(38:23) Broken Distribution: Industry Gatekeepers Despite international success, systemic fear and gatekeeping in the US distribution market remain significant obstacles(45:28) Previous Films, Television And Craft Directing television shows like Only Murders in the Building expanded her creative capacity and adaptability(51:45) Truth Seekers: The Next Generation Cherien Dabis shares her profound hope for young people who refuse to accept the broken systems of the pastEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podInstagram:@creativeprocesspodcast

"To be in the process of making things, to be in the process of talking to people about what things mean. The creative process is actually, I think, the most meaningful part of life, but it's very hard to measure. When we get shoved towards a world that demands easy measurables, it's very hard to optimize away from the creative process and optimize towards things that are more static."On this episode of The Creative Process, philosopher C. Thi Nguyen joins us to discuss his new book, The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game. He unpacks the profound concept of "value capture"—the moment we stop caring about the rich, subtle experiences of life and start obsessing over simplified, external metrics like grades, likes, and screen time.Beyond the trap of quantification, C. Thi Nguyen explores the liberating power of games and art. We discuss how true play requires us to step lightly between different rule sets, the difference between art and craft, and how reclaiming our creative process might just be the ultimate meaning of life.(0:00) THE TRAP OF VALUE CAPTURE How external metrics and scoring systems hijack our personal values and creativity(7:09) THE LOGIC OF QUANTIFICATION Why simple numbers travel well but strip away vital human context, from screen time to grades(11:58) THE MAGIC CIRCLE OF PLAY Understanding the difference between a gamified life and the true, disattached beauty of struggle(14:57) ART, CRAFT, AND METRICS Why taking the hard way leads to genuine creative expression, and how to spot value-laden systems(19:34) THE POLITICS OF MEASUREMENT Questioning the assumption that complex human traits, like IQ or consciousness, can be quantified on a single scale(21:31) THE SPIRIT OF PLAY Using constraints to boost collaborative storytelling and learning to step lightly between different rule worldsEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podInstagram:@creativeprocesspodcast

We live in a world obsessed with tracking. From our sleep scores to our social media engagement, invisible systems constantly quantify our worth. But when we replace our deepest values with these thin, easily measurable numbers, we lose a part of our humanity. It is time to step outside the magic circle of optimization and reclaim the unstructured joy of being alive. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work gets to the heart of the invisible structures that define modern life. He first established himself as a food writer, exploring the sensory world, before turning his intellectual gaze toward the philosophy of games and agency. He’s the author of Games: Agency As Art.His new book is The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else's Game.He argues that when we simplify our values for the sake of a leaderboard, something inside the human spirit begins to die. In it, he explores a concept called "value capture"—the moment we stop caring about the experience and start obsessing over the metric. He joins me now to discuss how we can lead a playful, spontaneous life without getting lost in the scoring systems of the 21st century.(0:00) THE MEANING OF LIFE IS THE CREATIVE PROCESS Why the most valuable parts of life are impossible to measure(6:46) VALUE CAPTURE DEFINED How external metrics and institutional scoring systems take over our personal values(11:38) THE METRICS WE LIVE BY The invisible toll of screen time, credit scores, and daily optimization(19:44) THE LOGIC OF QUANTIFICATION Why simple numbers travel well but strip away vital human context(24:13) THE MAGIC CIRCLE OF PLAY Understanding the difference between a gamified life and the true beauty of struggle(31:56) ART AS A GAME How taking the hard way and avoiding efficiency leads to genuine creative expression(38:48) THE POLITICS OF TECHNOLOGY Why tools and systems like factories and databases are never truly value-neutral(44:23) AI AND HUMAN CREATIVITY Navigating the tension between automated efficiency and expressive human art(50:44) THE POLITICS OF IQ Questioning the assumption that complex human traits can be measured on a single scale(1:01:12) NARRATIVE SCAFFOLDING How structured constraints in role-playing games can actually boost collaborative storytelling(1:10:00) THE SPIRIT OF PLAY Stepping lightly between different rule worlds and reclaiming our agencyEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/pod@creativeprocesspodcast

Are the walls of our most celebrated museums actually monuments to wealth extraction and labor suppression? How did the violent union-busting tactics of the 19th-century robber barons pave the way for modern philanthropy? And what happens when we expose the hidden racial capitalism behind the "genius" of modern art?In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu talks with Eunsong Kim about her stunning book, The Politics of Collecting: Race & the Aestheticization of Property. It is remarkable in its theoretical conceptualization, argument, and archival work. Kim argues that the beginnings of elite art collection in the United States coincided with the rise of the robber barons and the suppression of the labor movement. She connects this to Taylorism and the idea of scientific management, that further extenuated the rift between the mind and the body, between intellectual activity and labor. Not coincidentally, this distribution of kinds of work created a new distribution of value. In each case, Kim argues, race played a fundamental role. Ranging from the “found” art of Duchamp to the pseudo-Marxist conceptual art of Sierra, Kim eviscerates both pretention and cruelty, and restores the laboring body and what it produces to prominence, along with a truly reinvigorated and capacious sense of the Imagination outside of the constraints of neoliberal aesthetics.(0:00) The Politics of Collecting(2:16) The Rise of the Museum Form How art spaces are fundamentally tied to racial capitalism and settler colonialism(5:18) Carnegie, Frick, and the Homestead Strike, Violent de-unionization of steelworkers that preceded modern philanthropic projects(10:04) Taylorism and Scientific Management How Frederick Taylor's experiments sought to separate "mind work" from "hand work"(13:00) The De-skilling of Labor(16:11) The PR of Robber Barons(19:42) Duchamp and the Illusion of Meritocracy(26:17) Racial Violence and the "Ready-Made" Reading Duchamp's Fountain through the lens of segregation and white freedom(32:26) Santiago Sierra and Neoliberal Aesthetics Critiquing art that replicates capitalism by enacting humiliation on marginalized and precarious workers(43:12) Artists vs. Workers at the Whitney, 1969 anti-Vietnam War protest(47:58) Professors as Managers On private university labor laws, unionization, and the weaponization of the "manager" title(51:24) AI and the Alienation of ThoughtEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.com https://speakingoutofplace.com Bluesky @palumboliu.bsky.social@speaking_out_of_place