How the Pandemic Exposed the Cruelties of Incarceration w/ VICTORIA LAW

How does the literature of a collective that shares neither one nation nor any one language function? What can the study of state violence in Latin America teach us about the dehumanization occurring in West Asia? And how do we imagine paths out of generations of violence to build new utopias?In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu talks with Serhat Tutkal and Hevin Karakurt to Speaking Out of Place. These two scholars engage in a broad discussion of Kurdish history, culture, politics, literature and language, with particular attention to issues of statelessness, identity, and violence. We talk about the current moment with regard to Turkey, Syria, Palestine, and the US-Israel war on Iran and beyond. We use as a starting poet Serhat’s remarkable essay, “Note from Non-People,” and then move to a discussion of his work on dehumanization. We end with imagining paths out of cycles of violence and dehumanization, and consider specifically the way we might imagine new sorts of utopias and vistas of life-affirmation.Hevin Karakurt is a PhD candidate in Comparative Literature at Stanford University, where she studies Kurdish literature across languages and territories. In this way, she works on the question of how a literature of a collective that shares neither one nation nor any one language might function. Before coming to Stanford, she worked as a researcher in the Swiss National Science Foundation funded research project “Half-Truths. Truth, Fiction, and Conspiracy in the ‘Post-Factual’ Age”, at the University of Basel.Serhat Tutkal is a Kurdish academic. He is a postdoctoral researcher funded by the Secretariat of Science, Humanities, Technology and Innovation (Secihti) in Mexico. He has a PhD from Universidad Nacional de Colombia (Bogotá) with a dissertation on the legitimation and delegitimation of Colombian state violence. He mainly works on violence, racism, and dehumanization in West Asia and Latin America.(3:54) READING "NOTE FROM NON-PEOPLE"(8:00) DECODING STATELESSNESSThe foundational aspects of Kurdish identity and existing outside the nation-state(17:00) THE STRUGGLE OF LANGUAGELESSNESSWhat it means to borrow languages when your native tongue is unrecognized.(31:00) DEHUMANIZATION & ACADEMIA'S ROLEExamining the legitimation of violence and the changing role of the university in critical thought(44:00) DATA RESEARCH & GEOPOLITICSConnecting data research on social media racism to current events in Turkey, Syria, Palestine, and Iran.(1:05:00) IMAGINING UTOPIASEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.comBluesky @palumboliu.bsky.social Instagram @speaking_out_of_place

“The United States has this mentality that if somebody is serving a prison sentence or if somebody is in jail, they somehow deserve whatever happens. Whether it is medical neglect, whether it is abuse by staff or the other incarcerated people, whether it is terrible food, whether it is not being able to communicate or see their family members and loved ones. What happened in 2020 is that being incarcerated became a possible death sentence. Because we saw that prison deaths jumped 77% compared to the previous year where there was not a pandemic in the United States.”In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu speaks with veteran journalist Victoria Law. She is the author of such books as Resistance Behind Bars: The Struggles of Incarcerated Women, Prison By Any Other Name: The Harmful Consequences of Popular Reforms (co-authored with Maya Schenwar), and “Prisons Make Us Safer” and 20 Other Myths about Mass Incarceration. Today we talk about her new book, Corridors of Contagion: How the Pandemic Exposed the Cruelties of Incarceration.In this devastating study, Law shows how instead of focusing on care during the outbreak of COVID, prisons took the pandemic as an opportunity to amplify their inhumanity, cruelty, and violence. We hear how contagion spread through ventilation systems and through guards who spread viruses from outside to the prisoners, we learn how things like solitary confinement and strip searches only intensified their worse aspects, and how extractive communications systems preyed on those hungry for news from their loved ones. Law also tells us of the personal stories she was able to track that give a human dimension to the statistics of the pandemic, and also remarkable stories of self-sacrifice and solidarity, as prisoners gave each other the care and support so badly needed. We end by learning about organizations that are at the forefront of fighting for decarceration and restructuring of parole boards, and other actions to fight against the inhumane and cruel practices of the prison industrial complex.(0:00) Corridors of Contagion(2:21) Pre-Pandemic Prison Conditions Severely crowded and destabilizing environment of jails and prisons before COVID-19(8:42) Global Releases vs. US Incarceration(12:44) The Horrors of Solitary Confinement An exploration of how isolation cells offer no protection from respiratory droplets or viruses(16:55) Punished for Seeking Safety(19:07) Dehumanization Through Video Visits(26:47) Extractive Electronic Messaging(33:43) Humanizing the Statistics(43:56) Solidarity Behind Bars(51:57) The Fight for DecarcerationEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.comBluesky @palumboliu.bsky.socialInstagram @speaking_out_of_place

“By pretending like science is neutral or apolitical, we're really feeding a particular discourse which serves whatever political structures are in place right now, whatever status quo is in place right now. Science can never be apolitical because it's a human activity, it's practiced in society with others, with human and more-than-human beings.”In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu talks with Fernando Racimo, a leading scientist-activist, about his new book, Science in Resistance. This book gives a riveting account of the founding and growth of the international group Scientist Rebellion, in which now thousands of scientists from around the world have organized direct actions to draw attention to the climate crisis. Breaking through the censorship and silencing carried on by big fossil fuel companies and also scientific groups in and out of academia, which often collude with each other, members of SR have put their careers and their bodies on the line to raise public consciousness and to spur action. We talk about the connection between power and knowledge, between ecocide and genocide and the need to democratize education and research if we are going to have the kind of world we want to both live in and to pass on to other generations.(2:00) Moving to Direct Action(6:00) The Power of the Teach-In(10:00) The Climate Killjoy(11:00) The Myth of Scientific Neutrality(15:00) Fossil Fuel Complicity in Universities(23:00) Education for a World on Fire(30:00) Ecocide and Genocide(36:00) Learning from the Global SouthRacimo is a scientist-activist and the author of the new book Science in Resistance. He co-founded the Danish chapters of Scientist Rebellion and Academics for Palestine and works at the intersection of academia and social movement organizing. He earned his bachelor from Harvard and his PhD from UC Berkeley and is now an assoc. professor in ecology and evolution at the Globe Institute, University of Copenhagen. He has written articles and OpEds on the urgent need for scientists to join and support social movements fighting structures of oppression, as well as on strategies for transforming and democratizing academic institutions to serve positive socio-ecological needs. He teaches ecology and evolution, degrowth and socio-ecological justice, decolonizing global health and social movement theory and practice.Episode Sitewww.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.comBluesky @palumboliu.bsky.socialIG @speaking_out_of_place

Today, we hear from writers Yann Martel, Carl Safina and David George Haskell on the practice of listening to the living world. Tom Chi discusses the dangerous volatility of a one-degree shift. Clayton Aldern explores how climate change alters brain health and behavior, while Ami Vitale,Osprey Orielle Lake and Martín Von Hildebrand remind us of the kinship we share with nature. Fred Pearce discusses 40 years as a journalist reporting on climate from around the world, while Richard Black of the environmental think tank Ember and Paula Pinho, European Commission’s Chief Spokesperson, talk about policy, hope and the radical empathy required to protect the planet for future generations.(0:00) Clayton Page Aldern – Finding awe and beauty in the world(0:40) David George Haskell – On consequences of humans tuning out the sounds of the living world(2:11) Yann Martel – How animals ask us to step out of our humanity(3:12) Carl Safina – The interior lives of non-human animals(5:08) Ami Vitale – Environmental collapse and human conflict(6:37) Martín von Hildebrand – Indigenous views of nature(8:00) Richard Black – Transition to clean energy and massive fossil fuel subsidies(10:01) Tom Chi – Climate destabilization(11:07) Paula Pinho – Europe’s vision for energy independence(14:04) Osprey Orielle Lake – Māori concept of "I am the river and the river is me”(16:08) Bill Hare – On limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees(17:19) Fred Pearce – A realistic path to hope through nature’s resilienceTo hear more from each guest, listen to their full interviews.Episode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/pod@creativeprocesspodcast

“Storytelling, which is a very whole person kind of activity, is one that delivers all kinds of truths. It's on the factual ground of reality that we build our cathedrals and our castles that we live in. And those are not just made of facts. They're made of other kinds of truths that make the stories of who we are, the cities we live in, the languages we speak—these are made of fact and fiction together, and those are the stories that define our lives.”My guest today is Yann Martel,the internationally acclaimed author best known for his Booker Prize-winning Life of Pi and weaving philosophy, imagination, and profound human questions into unforgettable stories. His new novel, Son of Nobody, is a feat of literary imagination. Written in Homer-esque verses and layered with footnotes, the book draws us into the voice of a Greek storyteller while simultaneously mirroring our own present moment. It’s a work rich with history and intertextual echoes—ancient stories resurfacing in modern life, reminding us how deeply the past still speaks through us.At its heart, Son of Nobody isa meditation on life, death, grief, and the fragile ways our human vanity can cloud our search for meaning. Through myth, memory, and philosophical storytelling, Martel explores what it means to long for home, to wrestle with ambition, and to confront loss. It’s a deeply moving reflection on how ancient tales—told and retold across centuries—can still teach us compassion, humility, and perhaps the courage to recognize that we can be nobody and still matter. It’s a beautiful, sometimes haunting story about what we can learn from the past when it comes to homesickness, love, grief, and ambition—and about remembering to value what we have before the search for more blinds us to it.(0:00) Why is there human suffering? Why humanizing conflict is essential to understanding it(5:48) The Limits of Rationality & Magical Thinking Why pure logic fails to answer life's deepest philosophical questions(6:41) Education is Everything(8:59) Why War Needs Stories How individual narratives help us comprehend the true tragedy of conflict(9:44) Facts vs. Truth in Storytelling How psychological and emotional truths surpass factual accuracy(11:47) The Iliad vs. The Gospels (15:21) The Heroism of Translators(16:03) AI vs. Human Creativity(17:07) Animals as Ambassadors of the Wild (18:08) Art, Religion and Ways to Go BeyondEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podInsta @creativeprocesspodcast

Why do ancient myths still hold the answers to our modern anxieties? When faced with inexplicable grief or the incomprehensible scale of modern war, where does rationality fail us? Can the stories of our past save our future?My guest today is Yann Martel, the internationally acclaimed author best known for his Booker Prize-winning Life of Pi and weaving philosophy, imagination, and profound human questions into unforgettable stories. His new novel, Son of Nobody, is a feat of literary imagination. Written in Homer-esque verses and layered with footnotes, the book draws us into the voice of a Greek storyteller while simultaneously mirroring our own present moment. It’s a work rich with history and intertextual echoes—ancient stories resurfacing in modern life, reminding us how deeply the past still speaks through us.At its heart, Son of Nobody is a meditation on life, death, grief, and the fragile ways our human vanity can cloud our search for meaning. Through myth, memory, and philosophical storytelling, Martel explores what it means to long for home, to wrestle with ambition, and to confront loss. It’s a deeply moving reflection on how ancient tales—told and retold across centuries—can still teach us compassion, humility, and perhaps the courage to recognize that we can be nobody and still matter. It’s a beautiful, sometimes haunting story about what we can learn from the past when it comes to homesickness, love, grief, and ambition—and about remembering to value what we have before the search for more blinds us to it.(0:00) Why is there human suffering? Why humanizing conflict is essential to understanding it(02:14) Introduction to Son of Nobody, Yann Martel’s latest mythic novel(04:20) The Limits of Rationality & Magical Thinking Why pure logic fails to answer life's deepest philosophical questions(09:48) Why Greek Myths Still Speak to Us The universal relevance of ancient stories(13:38) The Heroism of Translators(18:32) Facts vs. Truth in Storytelling How psychological and emotional truths surpass factual accuracy(21:23) Why War Needs Stories(24:38) Reflections on Iran and Modern Conflict(30:35) The Iliad vs. The Gospels(41:26) What Do You Do with the Sadness of Mortals?(45:52) How Life of Pi Changed Martel’s Spiritual Beliefs(51:58) AI vs. Human CreativityEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/pod@creativeprocesspodcast

In the face of devastating state violence, the people of Iran continue to find new ways to resist. From a female marathon runner pacing her cell in prison, to an underground concert staged in defiance of the law, the fight for a free Iran is fought daily with bodies, art and solidarity.In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu speaks with journalist Fatemeh Jamalpour about her book, For the Sun After Long Nights, which she wrote with fellow journalist Nilo Tabrizy. In September 2022, the world learned of the murder of a young Kurdish woman in Iran, Mahsa Jina Amini. Her death, while a captive of the Iranian state, sparked the Woman, Life, Freedom protests. Fatemeh and Nilo’s book frames those protests in the deep tradition of Iranian women leading political movements for rights and freedom, that date back at least a century. They also provide incredibly detailed and moving accounts of the everyday lives of people in Iran who are part of a collective movement under the most oppressive and violent conditions imaginable. Fatemeh talks about the significance of the many ethnic minorities in Iran, the unique role of Gen Z in the protests, and the many ways that women’s bodies have become a powerful weapon in the fight for collective freedom, in places as diverse as prisons and illegal music concerts. Clearing up myths and lies about Iran and the resistance, this is an especially important episode of Speaking Out of Place.(0:00) A Century of Resistance Fatemeh discusses the deep historical roots of the Iranian women's movement(2:58) Becoming a voice for suppressed women(4:15) Sisterhood and Co-Authorship Meeting Niloufar Tabrizi and collaborating across borders(7:15) Interrogations and Writing Documenting state interrogation as an act of defiance and survival(12:45) The Diversity of Iran Highlighting the vital roles of Kurdish, Turkish, Arab, and Baluchi minorities in the struggle(16:15) Personal Freedom vs. Collective Liberation Why returning to a "broken country" was an act of profound love and solidarity(21:15) Gen Z Gamers in the Streets How young Iranians are using online strategy to fight security forces(26:15) Turning Grief into Resistance(29:15) Correcting Western Media Myths(31:15) The Body as a Weapon Women reclaiming their agency through public presence without a hijab(32:20) The Imaginary Concert The story of an illicit, breathtaking public performance in Iran(35:15) The Future of Iranian JournalismEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.comBluesky @palumboliu.bsky.social@speaking_out_of_place

“We're looking at a lot of bad things in American history that we should have been thinking about over the past 50 years. What McCarthyism did, what it targeted with regard to the academic community—and that's really what I know the best—is that during the late 1940s and early 1950s, the focus of political oppression was on people who once were, had previously been near or were affiliated with the American Communist Party. It was focused on individuals who had once been in or near the Communist Party and who were refusing to cooperate with the witch hunt. That was it. That was what McCarthyism did. Today, what we're seeing is an attack on everything.”In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu speaks with Ellen Schrecker, who has been referred to as “the dean of the anti-anti-Communist historians.” Well known for her classic studies of McCarthyism, today Schrecker explains how much worse Trump’s regime is than what we saw in the 1950s and 60s. A fierce defender of democracy, Ellen explains the central role education plays in creating a public culture and in maintaining democracy. Our conversation takes many paths, including an indictment of Capitalism, of the dominance of economistic thinking and values, of the ways university leaders are bending a knee to Trump. We talk about the value of the humanities, the importance of autonomous forms of education and mutual support such as we saw in the pro-Palestinian encampments, and one of the most remarkable differences between the days of McCarthyism—the phenomenon of mass protests like #NoKingsDay.(0:00) The Prequel To The Civil War The threats to education today compared to the 1950s(7:20) Democracy And Education(13:40) Capitalism And Anti-Science How corporate interests fund the suppression of climate science and universities(23:20) The Capitulation Of Leaders Why modern university administrators are giving in to authoritarian blackmail(33:40) The Loss Of Cultural Capital The targeted elimination of the humanities and the arts in higher education(39:20) Unprecedented Resistance Finding hope in modern student politicization and mass protestsEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.comBluesky @palumboliu.bsky.socialInstagram @speaking_out_of_place

"I am a poet without language and an empath without root. I am overflowing in something I do not recognize... something like terror, but still not quite that."In this episode of the Speaking Out of Place podcast, Professor David Palumbo-Liu talks with poet, activist, and scholar Jamaica Osorio. Shortly after October 7, 2023, she began to write a series of astonishing poems about the war in Gaza and the genocide. Osorio graces us with readings of some of those poems, and engages in a rich, complex, and deeply moving discussion of what went into their composition. Throughout, we talk about the power of poetry to suspend time and allow us the space to contemplate the impossible. We talk about the nature of not knowing, of the inexpressible, and the ways certain poems can give us the strength, energy, and commitment to persist in working for the liberation of all peoples, even when dwelling in grief.Dr. Jamaica Heolimeleikalani Osorio is an Associate Professor of Indigenous and Native Hawaiian Politics at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa. Her award-winning poetry and activism were the subject of the Sundance Film Festival documentary This is the Way we Rise, and she is the author of Remembering our Intimacies: Moʻolelo, Aloha ʻĀina, and Ea, published by The University of Minnesota Press. She believes in the power of aloha ʻāina and collective action to pursue liberatory, abolitionist futures.(0:00) Intro(2:00) The Silence After October 7, Jamaica Osorio discusses the struggle to find language and the pressure to speak out(5:00) The Sounds of Empire in Hawaiʻi Connecting the military helicopters over Pālolo Valley to the skies of Gaza(7:00) Reading "For Palestine"(13:00) Lingering in the Inexpressible Why poetry must offer questions and suspensions rather than simple answers(18:00) Taking Risks and Earning Trust The vulnerability of sharing deeply personal, grief-stricken art with the public(24:30) Reading: "It's Time to Dance" A beautiful meditation on holding the joy of a child alongside the terror of a genocide(29:00) Children as Ancestors and Teachers How Osorio’s daughter teaches her to be fully present in both grief and joy(37:00) Reading: "Rafah Burns" A raw poem about parenthood, weeping with a newborn, and the global resonance of loss(42:00) Finding Connection in the Dark The shared emotional vocabulary of crying when the world becomes incomprehensible(44:00) ʻOnipaʻa: To Be Steadfast(46:00) The Ungovernable Belief in a Better World Why the organizers and poets will outlast the empires that try to dominate themEpisode Websitewww.palumbo-liu.comhttps://speakingoutofplace.comBluesky @palumboliu.bsky.socialInsta @speaking_out_of_place

Two weeks away from filming her most ambitious film to date, Cherien Dabis and her crew were forced to evacuate Palestine as the devastating events of October 2023 began. Instead of abandoning the project, they adapted, filming across Cyprus, Jordan, and Greece, creating a cinematic love letter to the resilience, joy, and humanity of the Palestinian people.My guest today is Cherien Dabis. She’s a filmmaker and actress who has spent much of her career trying to fill the silences in the American narrative. In 2022, she became the first Palestinian to receive an Emmy nomination. She has worked on everything from The L Word to Ozark, Only Murders in the Building to the hit Netflix series Mo, always with an eye toward breaking the one-dimensional mold that has historically defined Arab representation in the West. But her latest project is perhaps her most ambitious yet. It’s a film called All That’s Left of You. It follows one Palestinian family across three generations, beginning in 1948 and ending in 2022. It is a story of exile and memory, and it’s Jordan’s official submission for this year’s Academy Awards.(0:00) The Inheritance of Trauma Cherien Dabis discusses how collective trauma is passed down and the importance of showing Palestinian resilience and humanity(1:50) Inherited Trauma: Identity And History The passage of trauma requires a multi-generational lens to truly understand how history and political events shape people(2:37) The Bakri Acting Dynasty: Collaborative Lineage Collaborating with four generations of the Bakri Family brought immense authenticity to the screen(4:02) Filming The Nakba: Art Imitating Crisis Evacuating Palestine weeks before shooting forced the crew to adapt amidst devastating, ongoing events(7:09) The Moment Of Activation: Racism In Ohio Experiencing severe racism during the first Gulf War ignited a lifelong drive to challenge dangerous media stereotypes(9:34) Psychological Violence: Impact Of Humiliation The film explores how non-physical harassment and humiliation leave devastating, long-term relational scars(10:48) Broken Distribution: Industry Gatekeepers Navigating systemic fear and gatekeeping in Hollywood distribution remains a profound challenge for Palestinian cinema(11:37) Previous Films, Television And Craft Directing television hones the craft and expands the creative capacity needed for ambitious feature films(12:28) Truth Seekers: The Next Generation Hope lies with young people who refuse to accept the broken systems and hidden truths of previous generationsEpisode Websitewww.creativeprocess.info/podInstagram:@creativeprocesspodcast