Creative skills programmes - The game before the game? | Yasmine Dankwah

I had the pleasure of interviewing the current Minister of State for Social Security and Disability, Sir Stephen Timms MP, in October 2026. Mr Timms and I discussed a new report on neurodivergent employment (and the Government's response), the shift to needs-based support, and how to create more equitable hiring and workplace practices. Please see the chapters below for specific topics. In the audio, I mention my regret that I didn't highlight more specific examples of challenges I believe neurodivergent people face when seeking and maintaining work. Some of those are mentioned in the episode 'Bonus: Neuroinclusion at Work - Insights from Neurodivergent Employees', which I would encourage you to listen to the episode if interested, or to seek more understanding (links below). Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/working-to-work/id1706140446?i=1000720237104 Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/episode/5ngBxJyS6Ejgss1Z2Lxhut?si=8d87ed6b5fdd49ab Expert Academic Panel on Neurodiversity: Final Report and Recommendations - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/expert-academic-panel-on-neurodiversity-final-report-and-recommendations/expert-academic-panel-on-neurodiversity-final-report-and-recommendations Government response to the Expert Academic Panel on Neurodiversity report - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/expert-academic-panel-on-neurodiversity-final-report-and-recommendations/government-response-to-the-expert-academic-panel-on-neurodiversity-report Working to Work Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/workingtoworkuk/ Chapters: 00:00 Coming up in this episode 00:36 Sam's episode intro 02:17 Differences between Buckland Review and the Expert Panel's report 04:49 Government's response to the expert panel's recommendations 07:35 Addressing the interpersonal challenges 11:32 Request for more accessible formats 12:30 Support provisions for people over 25 years old 15:35 What criteria are needed to access support? 17:20 Can the Job Centre develop a needs-based approach? 20:28 Nurturing 'double empathy' in the workplace 22:24 Employee protections in a needs-based system 24:31 The future of disability pay gap reporting 27:40 Sam's episode outro

In Working to Work Jukebox, host Sam presents a selection of songs produced by former guests on the series. 00:00 Welcome to the Working to Work Jukebox 01:25 Joanna Sternberg - People Are Toys To You - From the 2023 album ‘I’ve Got Me’ on Fat Possum Records. - Joanna talks about their journey so far as a working musician as it relates to neurodivergent traits - Season 2, Episode 7 04:15 Shakira Alleyne - Jump, I Insist - Single available on streaming platforms - Shakira speaks about their creative journey, their creative journey and the challenges some neurodivergent musicians face, which are the inspiration behind Shakira’s film 'Neurodiversity in Music ' - Season 2, Episode 1 07:39 Meadow House - Never Gonna Be Your Man - From the 2017 album ‘This Should Not Be Happening’ on Feeding Tube Records - Dan discusses his journey in sound, the ‘Outsider Musician’ label, and how it might relate to neurodivergence. - Season 2, Episode 4 10:46 Elinor Clare Rowlands - Wild Wood - Available to stream on Soundcloud (https://soundcloud.com/elinor-clare-rowlands) - Artist and Writer Elinor Rowlands talks about navigating a creative career as a neurodivergent person, and the work they’re doing to support other autistic / ADHD artists with their Magical Women project. - Season 2, Episode 5 12:46 Recap 1 16:09 Yasmine Dankwah - Welcome to Britain - Available to stream on Soundcloud (https://soundcloud.com/beingme77) - Yasmine Dankwah is a neurodivergent creative polymath and creator of Pathways, a podcast exploring how people try to find their way into the creative industries through skills development programmes. - Season 2, Episode 11 17:22 Kalou - When I Was - From an upcoming album. Currently available on the Kalou YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/@kaloutube) - Author and coach Alex Genadinik interviewed Sam about what managers might learn from listening more to neurodivergent employees. - Season 1, Episode 4 20:22 Robin Blamires - Voice Note: Anxiety In Audio - Available to stream on Soundcloud (https://soundcloud.com/robinblamires) - Robin is an audio and digital media producer. We spoke about his feature-length audio work ‘The Audio Rainbow’, which explores some of the challenges and successes he’s experienced in his career. - Season 1, Episode 5 22:43 Stephanie Ozuo (flotuk) - RAGE - Single available on streaming platforms - Stephanie Ozuo, a Careers Advisor, spoke about using her lived experience of ADHD to help fellow neurodivergent individuals secure and maintain fulfilling employment. - Season 1, Episode 6 25:11 Recap 2 29:20 Kalou x Meadow House - Social Bad (Alternative Universe mix) - Previously unreleased snippet of an upcoming song - Season 2, Episode 4

In this episode, I speak with Yasmine Dankwah, the creator of Pathways, a podcast exploring how people try to find their way into the creative industries through skills development programmes. Drawing on her own experiences, Yasmine reflects on the realities of navigating these opportunities, from the process of applying to dealing with rejection. We talk about how Pathways emerged as a creative response to these experiences - using sound, storytelling, and a game-inspired structure to question how these “pathways” actually function. 00:00 Introduction to Working to Work 02:53 Yasmine introduces her creative background 04:40 Navigating freelance creative employment 05:55 The challenge of professional articulation 06:33 Finding supportive multifaceted work environments 08:36 Dyslexia, ADHD and application fatigue 12:02 Deconstructing the generic job description 14:27 Inspiration behind the Pathways Podcast 16:30 Understanding creative skills development programs 18:59 Outcome-centred vs person-centred approaches 22:09 Identity resource lacks and artistic safe spaces 23:41 Responding to progressive tokenism in theatre 25:48 Rejecting masking and industry conformity 28:50 Collective solidarity and alternative funding routes 31:56 Gamification and sound design concepts 35:27 Breakdown of Pathways episode topics 39:38 Reducing emotional labour in applications 41:09 Navigating the reality of rejection 44:27 The institutional responsibility of organisations 46:23 Neurodiversity and intersectionality in the arts 48:23 Better structural support for neurodivergence 49:08 Rethinking rigid evaluation data forms 51:11 Final thoughts and wrapping up ~ Resources: Pathways Podcast: YouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLLfrQfmbUA9DECeAu-mVYoPBpDLfC_zGI&si=9lpXUjQTLjotVOBk Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7GUWvM7DN3TpBWIK87ADKe?si=B-ugiXpFSjCXmj7GiTCFlw Neurodiversity In Music: Improving Access Shakira Alleyne’s documentary exploring best practices, barriers, and next steps in supporting Neurodivergent creatives in the Music Industry/Education sector. https://youtu.be/DImV7c6RWFk?si=ir9RWHOilWqsmEVE Wired4Music: https://www.wired4music.co.uk Sound Connections: https://www.sound-connections.org.uk

What happens when a scientist turns his attention to his own mind?Assistant professor Youngmin Park shares how he began questioning the science behind ADHD, and what honesty looks like when you’re living the research. In this second part of my conversation with Youngmin Park, a mathematical biologist and professor at the University of Florida, we turn our attention to his YouTube channel, ADHD Mathematician. We talk about what motivated him to start sharing his experiences publicly, how he approaches openness with both care and honesty, and the ways his thinking about ADHD and mental health has evolved over time. We also discuss courage, vulnerability, and how the internet can both connect and confine us – and why, for Youngmin, authenticity is worth the risk. I had a few ongoing technical challenges with this recording, so apologies again for the less-than-optimal video quality, but I hope you’ll still enjoy this thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation. Youngmin’s website: https://youngmp.github.ioADHD Mathematician: https://www.youtube.com/@UCLtlPRveA1APQnGAI2YVDGw

I became aware of Youngmin through his YouTube channel ADHD Mathematician, in which he explores the research that underpins ADHD and, in a non-prescriptive way, shares his own journey with neurodivergence as it relates to his work, personal life, and sense of self. We’ll be talking more about the channel in the second part of this episode, but in this first hour, Youngmin spoke about his journey to becoming a professor at the University of Florida – despite difficulties, including my patience and self-compassion. I had some technical challenges with this episode, so apologies for the less-than-optimal video quality (I’ve learned for next time!). Youngmin's website: https://youngmp.github.ioADHD Mathematician: https://www.youtube.com/@UCLtlPRveA1APQnGAI2YVDGw

I sat down with Abbas Zahedi, a multidisciplinary artist working across sound, installation, and socially engaged practice. Their process-based, site-sensitive approach responds to space, history, and community, shaping work that resists easy categorisation. In this episode, we explore how neurodivergence informs Abbas’s creative practice, their non-linear path into the art world, and the challenges of navigating institutions while carving out space on their own terms. We also discuss access, self-advocacy, and the shifting definitions of success for neurodivergent creatives.

Talented musician and illustrator Joanna Sternberg speaks with me about the themes in their music, the dangers of people pleasing, inspirations, navigating the industry, and the empowering impact of trusted friends. We also speak about the benefits and challenges that come from neurodivergent diagnoses, including autism, ADHD, and dyslexia. Joanna offers suggestions for how aspiring musicians can move from having their music as a private practice to one they can share with friends and beyond. Timestamps: 00:00 Coming up in this episode03:16 Jo's introduction05:33 Themes in 'I've Got Me'09:58 Themes in 'People Are Toys To You'11:41 What sobriety offered Jo12:38 What neurodivergent diagnosis offered Jo13:30 The impacts of people pleasing16:11 What Jo's music offers them and others20:36 Elliott Smith and other inspirations 23:45 Social anxiety challenges 28:18 Jo's journey in the music industry32:00 Difficultly knowing who to trust34:48 Suggestions for developing music practice 36:32 Trusted friends help building confidence37:30 Jo's voice, it's evolution, and vocal trends45:57 Jo's advice for using social media48:00 Band names vs one's own name50:40 Jo asks about Sam's 'Kalou' music52:45 Balancing self-hatred and self-awareness54:15 Relating to autism 55:50 Jo's self-support strategies 58:00 Sam's outro Joanna's music: https://joannasternberg.bandcamp.com/Joanna's website: https://www.joannasternberg.comWorking to Work website: https://kalou.co.uk/w2w.htmlSam's music: https://kalou.bandcamp.com/

YouTuber Shaun speaks with Sam about his character ‘Jack Tisson’ — created to explore the causes of, and potential solutions to, challenges he’s experienced with work, and his wider life. Shaun's YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@UC3rlvVTY6_AevLtr9rQjQnQ

Artist and Writer Elinor Rowlands speaks with Sam about navigating a creative career as a neurodivergent person and the work they’re doing to support other autistic/ADHD artists to thrive through their Magical Women project. 00:00 Coming up in this episode 05:58 What Elinor believes creative practice offers that is essential for neurodivergent artists 08:44 Barriers Elinor has experienced in their career they relate to being autistic10:00 Elinor’s experience of 'abeism' and reaction to 'outsider art'22:27 The challenges of identifying the type of support one needs to thrive 23:50 How Elinor found the right kind of professional support and what that looks like in practice27:05 The creation and evolution of magical women, an initiative bringing together marginalised women and non-binary artists47:30 Elinor’s creative practice and how they’ve incorporated stimming into their methodology Throughout this episode, I’ve included some audio-visual examples of Elinor’s work, more of which is available on their website: https://www.elinorrowlands.com Click title to read: 'Beauty in the Gothic: Forms of Autistic Aesthetics': https://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=/context/ought/article/1177/&path_info=Beauty_20in_20the_20Gothic.pdf Please do follow the show to be notified when new episodes are released, and leave a rating and review if you appreciate it, or have feedback. You can subscribe to the YouTube channel for video versions of each episode, and the opportunity to engage via the comments section. For more, see the Working to Work home page, and follow on Instagram @workingtoworkuk

Daniel Wilson (Meadow House, Post Electronics, Oscillatorial Binnage) joins Sam to discuss being labelled an outsider musician—how he relates to the term, and whether it connects to neurodivergence. They explore the challenges of sustaining a creative career outside conventional structures and how Dan’s approach to sound and music reflects a truly divergent way of thinking—one that embraces what he calls “a point of difference.” Topics Discussed:• Being labelled an outsider musician – How Dan has been described as an outsider artist, how he relates to that label, and whether it resonates with his own creative identity.• Sustaining a creative career outside conventional structures – The challenges of making a living as an experimental musician working outside mainstream support systems.• The evolving meaning of outsider art – How the term “outsider” has changed over time and whether it still holds relevance today, especially in an internet age.• A divergent approach to music and sound – Dan’s creative philosophy, his use of unconventional methods (e.g., tape dropping, found objects, and Post Electronics), and his emphasis on creating a “point of difference.” Chapters:00:00 Coming up in this episode 00:29 Episode intro04:00 Dan discusses his creative work04:53 Tape dropping08:21 Developing post-electronics and Oscillatorial Binnage10:34 Dan on ‘creating a point of difference’12:27 How Dan gains opportunities (I)13:46 MTV work16:16 Dan’s relationship with the label ‘outsider musician’22:22 What can ‘othering’ mean?25:35 Daphne Oram’s ‘mismatched impedance’ theory 27:14 Mental health vs creative output 31:00 Dan on the history of outsider art34:44 Are labels like ‘outsider’ useful?39:36 How Dan gains opportunities (II)40:46 Post-pandemic challenges39:39 What support would benefit ‘outsider artists’?47:54 Commission success (Radionics Radio)52:05 What has Dan learnt through his career?54:11 Episode outro