161: Subramanian Rangan - Capitalism 2.0: Cultivating Leaders with Character

Professor Subramanian (Subi) Rangan, Professor of Strategy and Management at INSEAD and Endowed Chair in Societal Progress, explores "Capitalism 2.0". He explains how traditional model succeeded in development and wealth creation goals, yet leaving critical gaps from focusing on efficiency over equity, output over outcomes, and growth over sustainability. He discusses the "K-shaped" economy, concentrated power, and leadership responsibility to use influence with more moral character to improve well-being. Subi recommends "better not new" models, urges leaders to consider more human-centric assumptions, and reframes business as a platform for both performance and societal progress.     KEY TAKEAWAYS   [01:29] Professor Subi Rangan describes early influences shaping his career and perspective. [02:25] Subi explains his exposure to Tata's positive societal impact in India. [04:06] During his PhD, Subi observes multinational firms as platforms for global human capital. [05:50] Contrasts between business income generation and societal impact outcomes. [06:37] Government intervention rises when markets fail to self-correct. [07:14] Since 1980s, liberalization increased legitimacy of private enterprise self-regulation. [07:30] Capitalism 2.0 addresses gaps in the current system – e.g. enormous wealth creation, but well-being is lacking. [10:15] Efficiency over equity is one driver of the modern "K economy". [10:59] Emphasis on outputs neglected sustainability despite economic growth and scale. [11:47] Mass production and consumption can produce better outcomes with more thoughtful producers and consumers. [12:58] Society is influenced by four systems: bio, cultural, political, and economic. [13:35] Interdependence is regulated to resolve differences – using culture's soft power. [15:00] Hard power, civic interdependence with norms and consequences. [15:51] Economic interdependence excels at efficiency with inherent contradiction. [18:01] Highlights divergence of opportunity and income fuels dissatisfaction. [19:00] The concentration of power comes with moral responsibility to exercise it. [21:04] Inequality is a choice influenced by leadership values. [22:03] Lack of fairness and wellbeing can bring down society. [24:19] Focus on outcomes not outputs, especially fairness as an outcome. [24:56] Economic drivers of ill- or well-being – adjusting the structure of employment. [25:55] Labor immobility challenges adaptation pushing for an ecosystem of adjustment. [26:33] Adaptive individuals emphasises workplace learning over formal education. [26:52] An ecosystem approach supports workforce adaptation and stability. [27:35] How to incorporate non-price value outcomes like wellbeing and equity. [29:05] We have a moral problem, not a technical one. [29:33] After achieved development, wellbeing, equity, and sustainability need economic integration. [31:08] Deeper leadership character must complement competence in AI era. [31:52] AI can be a potential equalizer if guided intentionally. [34:32] Moral reasoning can be incorporated into business education systems. [35:20] Updating applied professions to combine competence and character for meaningful careers. [36:55] Points to Better Life Index as multidimensional well-being measurement model. [38:14] Outcome-based metrics rarely exist at the enterprise level thus far. [39:30] Ideas, academic research, and conversation can drive systemic change.     RESOURCES   Professor Subramanian Rangan's biography   Societyforprogress.org website   Professor Rangan's chapter "From Market-Pareto to Moral-Pareto: Seven Problematic Assumptions in Business Economics Theory" in the 2025 book "Core Assumptions in Business Theory: A Wedge Between Performance and Progress"       QUOTES   "The models that we have really do work to enable this wealth creation. However, they seem to not have done a good job on creating wellbeing."   "There is an anxiety that is quite unprecedented about the future and about the state of the world."    "The 20th century economy produced great output, but it fell short on outcomes."   "It's not about the concentration of power, it's about the exercise of concentrated power."   "Business actually is a great platform for not only positive income, but also for positive impact."

Maya Middlemiss is Founder of Remote Work Europe, a Remote Work Strategist, and author of 'Remote Readiness for Jobseekers'. With over two decades of remote work experience, Maya reflects on developing and scaling fully remote teams long before pandemic-related "forced remote" distorted perceptions of flexible work. She highlights the mindsets, autonomy, self-discipline, and trust required for sustainable remote models, along with practical hiring indicators for remote readiness. Maya describes collaboration infrastructure, leadership evolution, and how companies and workers can intentionally position themselves for the future of distributed work.   KEY TAKEAWAYS   [01:12] Maya works abroad before studying psychology to better understand herself and others.   [03:24] An offer to supply research via the internet launches Maya's early remote work.   [04:17] Early remote work requires experimental setups with basic technology at home.   [05:40] Maya hires independent, self-directed people suited to technical and remote autonomy.   [07:33] Entrepreneurship, novel writing, and marathon training clues signal remote readiness.   [11:17] Technologies enabling remote work are solved pre-pandemic while versioning issues remain.   [12:45] Distributed collaboration needs shared repositories and synchronous communication.   [13:42] Video meetings are now basic expectations using seamlessly integrated tools.   [15:46] COVID forces remote adoption without change management.   [16:40] Pandemic burnout experiences from surveillance management and excessive Zoom calls.   [17:44] Despite challenges, people recognise the long-term potential of working remotely.   [18:18] Pause and reflection causes workers to seek guidance to work remotely permanently.   [19:20] Lifestyle redesign becomes central as people relocate and reassess commuting.   [20:23] Return-to-office pressure generates panic for those who had restructured their lives.   [21:24] Remote Work Spain and Europe emerges to systematize advice for job seekers.   [23:15] Media narratives about productivity often mask commercial real estate interests.   [23:50] Personal preference strongly aligns with productivity in distributed settings.   [25:09] Remote work increases self-awareness about lifestyle and motivation.   [26:21] Decoupling work from location unlocks global life design possibilities.   [28:08] Geoarbitrage enables cost-of-living flexibility and portfolio career strategies.   [30:16] Distributed teams need intentional leadership to replace passive office-based osmosis.   [34:28] Remote work's five C's: Console, Culture, Communication, Connection, and Collaboration.   [35:42] Technical self-sufficiency and redundancy are essential remote competencies.   [37:45] Everyone needs to contribute with new broader spectrums of knowledge and expertise.   [38:41] New remote hires should actively observe onboarding to recognise cadence, styles etc.   [42:19] Managers can learn from new remote recruits' views to improve distributed systems.   [44:22] AI is embedded everywhere, requiring critical use and human differentiation.   [46:25] Job seekers must show AI literacy without communication sounding machine-generated.   [47:33] Authenticity and visible individuality help candidates stand out remotely.   [48:46] Cultural fit should add diversity and evolution rather than sameness.   [50:32] Remote work is harder to secure but delivers significant life rewards.   IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: Remote work is different to previous traditional working norms making it harder to find a remote job or managing a distributed team. However, the rewards are significant and worth the additional effort.     RESOURCES   Maya Middlemiss on LinkedIn Remote Resilience Hub Remote Work Europe 'Remote Readiness for Jobseekers' Maya's new book QUOTES   "The people who've mastered that intentionality of leading distributed teams actually really celebrate what new people could bring."   "To figure out how to lead your team properly in a distributed way, you'll get so much more from them and you'll get so much more from your own life as a leader, as a manager."   "Remote work is here. It has been here for a long time."   "The sheer spectrum of knowledge and expertise is much broader and so everybody can't know everything…We are so much more atomised now. We need to try to be good synthesists and have a good overview."   "Try to find the best job for you in the whole world where you will have the greatest satisfaction and experience and productivity and flow. Of course, that's going to be harder, but just consider the rewards that that can bring and it's worth doing the work. "

Matt Poepsel, PhD is author of "Expand the Circle: Enlightened Leadership for Our New World of Work", VP of Talent Optimization at The Predictive Index, and part-time faculty at Boston College. Matt discusses how leaders must prioritise human systems to adapt their approaches amid ongoing turbulence and disruption. Drawing from his military background and psychology expertise, Matt breaks down how to shift from control to connection, fostering hope, mutual trust and commitment. He offers clear guidance on managing through volatility, aligning teams in hybrid settings, exploring how to sustain motivation, rethink productivity, and embrace the opportunities.     KEY TAKEAWAYS   CHAPTER 1: Psychology, Empathy, and the Foundation of Leadership [01:19] During a Marine deployment, Matt is drawn to human behaviour and psychology. [02:49] For high performance and intense situations, military entities have psychology wired in. [03:37] Empathy and cohesion are underappreciated drivers of military agility and effectiveness. [05:15] High stakes work recognise 'softer' factors. Employers often miss the essential social glue.   CHAPTER 2: Transitioning to Human-Centred Tech-based Coaching [06:21] Matt leaves the military focused on product but is drawn to team leadership dynamics. [07:27] After a PhD on technology-assisted coaching, Matt starts a company to scale the concept. [08:05] Early coaching efforts centred on behaviour change, connection building and achievement orientation. [08:40] Millennials', and later Gen Zers, arrival highlighted need for new leadership approaches. [09:12] Even early technologies held innovation possibilities to improve human connection.   CHAPTER 3: Technology Acceleration and the Human Impact [10:45] Today's technology has increased convenience and productivity as well as disassociation.   [13:10] Mandated and mismanaged tech rollouts generate fear and resistance in employees. [13:55] Leaders can push productivity too fast, miss reactions showing people aren't yet on board. [15:37] First Principles are vital to understand actionable and effective priorities.   [16:10] Leaders need to counter employees withdrawing and reverting to self-interest. CHAPTER 4: Core Leadership Strategies for Unstable Times   [17:05] Hope acts as social gravity for leaders to bring teams back together. [18:58] Mutual understanding and trust between employers and employees needs cultivating. [20:35] Empathising with others reduces people the misjudgement of motives that increase fear. [22:40] Hierarchical org structure and career progression are outdated and block upward mobility. [24:00] Organisations need to be creative, evolve structures and upskill workers for adaptability. [25:03] Commitment to shared goals builds cohesion and counters fragmentation [28:45] Leadership training must emphasize empathy and collaboration skills [30:47] Leaders who aren't supported must proactively learn and adapt.   CHAPTER 5: Building Cohesive Teams in a Fragmented World     [31:50] Synchrony—aligned workflows—strengthens team connection and performance [32:52] Poor communication and decisions often isolate rather than unify [34:54] Redesigning how work gets done can restore belonging and efficiency [35:56] Leaders must assess cohesion and identity to guide 2026 planning [36:58] Focus on collective progress as the pace of change increases [38:00] Strong teams come from intentional connection, not just output   IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: "To manage successfully through 2026, first take stock of your team, You need to know how things are. Then focus on cohesion because the way you're going to get through it is together."       RESOURCES   Matt Poepsel on LinkedIn Matt Poepsel's website The Predictive Index website Matt's Book "Expand the Circle: Enlightened Leadership for Our New World of Work"       QUOTES   "We can't succumb to the transactionalisation, the reductionism that's affecting the modern workplace. Because there are real economic consequences in terms of performance, but also human consequences in terms of our lived experience."   "The only way out is through."   "We have to take our people with us."   "I have to be the magnet rod that kind of draws us all back together through the way that I show up, the way that I diagnose problems, the way that I provide my coaching."   "Our human systems evolution is falling woefully behind our technology evolution."   "Let's try to get more creative… Let's emphasize those things that AI can't do and let's help our employees remain competitive and more valuable as a result."   "We have to check in with our teams and basically do that temperature check."

Antony Slumbers is a global keynote speaker on AI in real estate and pioneering voice behind 'Space as a Service.' He explores how different tiers of office buildings are evolving to meet human- and task-centric work needs. Drawing on deep experience as a Proptech entrepreneur, Antony discusses how AI and digital tools are transforming static real estate assets into dynamic environments supporting workers cognitive capacity, productivity, and wellbeing. He shares how shifting real estate models—from bonds to service-based businesses—is essential to attract people back to the office, enhance productivity, and support hybrid and flexible work strategies.     TAKEAWAYS   Chapter 1 - From Art to Real Estate Innovation   [01:26] Antony studies history and art history which sharpens his eye for aesthetics. [02:01] Antony starts work at an art gallery then enters real estate unexpectedly through an client. [03:27] An epiphany that the internet has great potential for real estate coordination. [03:57] Antony starts coding then build a web agency focused on serving commercial real estate. [04:56] A partnership with British Land to develop digital property management tools. Chapter 2 - Reframing Real Estate: Space as a Service   [06:01] Antony coins "Space as a Service" to reframe office thinking and real estate mindsets. [06:56] Real estate starts shifting from bond-based investments to human experience businesses. [08:26] Buildings must support focus, collaboration, and task-based work types. [09:13] Pure Adam Smith - productivity depends on environments that support individual output.   [10:30] Office buildings must attract people. They have purpose, but they're no longer needed. [12:30] Hybrid working existed pre-COVID, but the pandemic proved remote work works.   [13:20] Most corporations continue to mismanage hybrid work having had years to improve. [13:51] Only top-tier offices and flex space providers now fit workers needs and desires. [14:40] A significant portion of office spaces today are functionally obsolete. [16:23] Flex offices fit needs well but are expensive to operate based on high expectations.   Chapter 3 - Technology, AI, and Smart Environments   [17:40] Predictive AI can be used at once but needs much data, now possible within building environments. [19:22] Generative AI is a thinking partner to enhance any language, code and audio task. [21:04] Antony's six PropTech pillars include sustainability, wellbeing, technology and flexibility. [24:45] Smart buildings must adjust to maintain cognitive performance levels. [25:40] Top tier offices will start guaranteeing environmental conditions to support performance.   [27:16] AI enables mass personalization based on user behaviour patterns. [28:13] Next step: buildings respond to what users plan to do. [29:58] Trust is critical for personalized data-driven space services. [32:19] Personas help anonymise data for tailored building experiences. [32:36] Antony disagrees with surveillance and advocates for trust-based data sharing. Chapter 4 - Connection, Community, and Purposeful Space   [34:09] Individual top-tier buildings will draw tenants by enabling industry-specific performance. [34:56] Buildings as a connector, matchmaking tenants for networking and collaboration. [36:19] AI can suggest connections through apps or curated events such as lunch and learns. [40:51] Construction City example shows design drives chance interactions and community. Chapter 5 - Workforce Strategy and AI Readiness   [42:49] Many employers aren't honest about why they are using AI and the workforce impact. [43:42] Fewer people may be needed as each person become much more productive with AI. [44:10] Companies must redeploy talent instead of cutting staff. [45:45] Some use AI to grow; others shrink workforce. [48:11] Small firms can become agile with AI-powered super teams. [50:22] AI fluency matters—employees not engaging with AI risk falling behind. [52:01] Everyone must upskill individually to stay competitive. IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: Gather data and talent inputs to analyse and discover how your offices can be designed to actively support your teams' office-based work.       RESOURCES   Antony Slumbers on LinkedIn Antony's website        QUOTES   "You've got to make a building that people really, really want to go to because they don't need it anymore."   "Generative AI is really good for mass personalization because it can understand data and break it down at a very granular level."   "Real estate was going to move from being about a bond to a business."   "Health and wellbeing doesn't just happen in a building. You are controlling the environmental conditions in which someone works."   "You are paying someone a hell of a lot of money to be there, so if their cognitive capabilities are downgraded 10%, you are actually costing yourself money."   "We will start to get to that base level—perfect conditions for whatever it is you need to do at the time."

Cali Williams Yost, CEO and Founder of Flex+Strategy Group, has pioneered workplace flexibility since 1995. Cali shares her journey from banking to becoming a flexibility strategist. She explains why flexible work is essential for business growth and attracting and retaining top talent. Cali explains the pitfalls of hybrid and flexible model policy-only approaches and the need for full operational system-wide integration. She urges leaders to rethink outdated work constructs and outlines practical steps for embedding flexibility into organizational culture for sustainable success.       TAKEAWAYS   Chapter 1: Origins of a Flexibility Strategist   [01:19] Cali studies English and Economics appealing to her two contrasting interests. [02:08] Cali's first job at a bank gives her training and allows her to go to New York City!   [02:43] Client relationships are key to success, but rigid systems cause Cali's colleagues to quit. [03:35] Cali sees flexible work as logical and proposes it, unsuccessfully to bank leadership. [04:30] A bank client CEO explains he offers flexible working to retain his employees long-term. [05:14] Urged by his business-driven reasoning, Cali leaves to become a flexibility strategist. [05:47] Cali gets an MBA to have credibility with business leaders about workplace innovation. [06:10] Cali joins Families and Work Institute, developing strategies to operationalize flexibility. [07:35] Workplace flexibility becomes an employee benefit part of policy, not operationalised. [08:45] Making policies operational, Cali develops 'work-life fit' and publishes her first book.   Chapter 2: Workplace Flexibility Before & During COVID   [10:13] Top down approaches are not effective so Cali dives deep into change management.   [11:15] Cali starts her own firm to take an operational, integrated approach to flexible working.   [12:26] Pre-2020, most companies had flexible work policies but they weren't operationalised. [13:50] Widespread flexibility was organic and inconsistent with more men working remotely.   [13:55] When COVID hit, companies with operationalised flexibility policies adapted easily. [14:19] Executives must reassess foundational work constructs and beliefs to adapt effectively. [17:00] The work challenges presented by leaders and younger employees "clash of contexts". [18:55] The upcoming demographic cliff makes flexible work necessary to attract and retain talent.   Chapter 3: Leading in the Modern Work Era   [19:26] Finding those ready to lead the change, challenge their context and hold space.   [19:48] Three change phases—assess, align, activate—are critical for embedding flexibility. [20:10] Leadership alignment is essential; one resistant leader can derail an entire initiative. [22:45] Employers investing in defining new working parameters unlock many benefits.   [23:59] Leaders need to be aware of what is and isn't working with employees.   [25:31] Critical willingness to hold space for change being messy and looking at work differently. [27:11] Mandating in-office days without data and strategic input erodes employee confidence. [27:52] Executives co-creating with employees to achieve aligned operational flexibility.   [29:55] Trust increases when employees participate in experimenting and defining the process.   Chapter 4: Intentional Future of Work Transformation   [32:11] Senior leaders must be intentional about work transformation.   [32:50] The sustainability of 5-day/week RTO policies especially for talent attraction/retention. [34:07] The significant, essential hurdle of stepping back and rethinking the old work model.   [35:12] Younger employees successfully create an intern integration program when empowered. [37:45] Talent shortages by 2032 make flexible models essential to business continuity. [38:33] AI will supplement, not replace, human workers—talent attraction remains vital. [39:42] Rigid workspace metrics must evolve to support dynamic, flexible workforce needs. [42:16] Organizational transformation requires change management and relationships with systems thinking.   IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: Leaders need to assess their talent reality from now through 2030 – aligning the expectations of their workforce and the needs of the business.         RESOURCES   Cali Williams Yost on LinkedIn flex+strategy group website         QUOTES   Pre-pandemic "Flexibility was happening organically. It was happening inconsistently, and it was not optimized."   "The consistent recognition is - I need to do this differently. So what does that look like?"   "You have to be willing to hold the space because change is messy."   "This [flexibility] isn't a policy. This is a way of operating."   "We're getting ready to hit a historic labour cliff demographic cliff. There aren't gonna be people. The workers who are left? They are going to dictate how they're gonna work.  So you should be working right now on being employer of choice."  

Andrew Mawson, Founder and Managing Director of Advanced Workplace Associates, explores how organizations can enhance performance, especially by helping employees better manage their brain capacity. Andrew shares six evidence-based factors most impacting knowledge worker productivity. He discusses the neuroscience-researched factors affecting brain function and performance. Andrew offers actionable leadership guidance to reduce mental load, enhance employee well-being and resilience, and achieve sustainable results.       TAKEAWAYS   Chapter 1: Andrew's Early Career    [01:18] Andrew studies applied statistics finding it useful, later describing reality through numbers.   [01:59] Working in tech and defence, Andrew then joins Fujitsu and leads a program on intelligent buildings.   [02:47] Intelligent building initiatives aim to increase computing adoption and data integration.   [04:54] Advanced Workplace Associates is founded to bring a business- and people-focused lens to workplace strategy.   Chapter 2: Six Key Factors of Knowledge Worker Productivity   [07:31] Analysis of past research identifies top factors impacting knowledge worker productivity.   [09:28] Factor 1: Social cohesion emerges as the top factor boosting collaboration and innovation.   [10:43] Factor 2: perceived supervisory support with leaders tailoring their approach for each person.   [11:41] Factor 3: Information sharing enables a culture of openness, countering knowledge-hoarding.   [11:59] Factor 4: vision clarity helps employees connect their work to the team and corporate purpose.   [12:45] Factor 5: external communication makes teams challenge their ideas and be open to others' views.   [13:29] Factor 6: Trust underpins all factors, fostering belief that leaders and colleagues do the right thing.   [15:10] Leaders must create a level of certainty to reduce employee anxiety despite external turmoil.   [16:21] Social cohesion usefully creates a buffer during uncertain times, enhancing resilience.   Chapter 3: Research into Brain Performance   [17:16] Humans are individual brains – research identifies 14 key factors to optimise performance.   [18:42] Sleep (7.5 hours) is key for brain performance, with quality and preparation critical enablers.   [19:50] Hydration, exercise, and a good diet—with breakfast—are also essential for cognitive health.   [21:39] Leaders must recognize that lifestyle habits affect their team's productivity and wellbeing.   [23:00] AWA is running a cohort trial to educate leaders on brain health and track performance.   [23:57] After baselining, coaching how to integrate new habits and track performance.   Chapter 4: Cognitive Capacity & Managing Load   [24:56] Recognising finite brain capacity, environments can be designed to reduce mental loads.   [25:55] Everyone can better manage their well-being and outcomes using workspace that increases capacity.   [28:10] A story of making tea illustrates how cognitive load varies by individual and context.   [29:37] Brains are managing humans' entire systems unconsciously, consuming much energy.   [30:20] Personal stressors, such as family and finances, compound work demands and brain strain.   [31:24] Leaders need to monitor workload and not exceed employees' brains' capacity limits.   [32:34] When excessive load get to a point that it blocks capacity for planning and logic.   [33:26] Managers and employees can manage load together to restore cognitive function quickly.   [34:13] Organizations are communities of connected brains aiming to optimise knowledge flow.   [35:05] All six factors are linked and applied together can improve productivity and wellbeing.   Chapter 5: How Leaders can Improve Performance    [36:26] Leaders need to better understand how the brain works to enable high-performing teams.   [37:07] Most managers lack vital training; the six factors offer a useful playbook for leaders.   [38:17] How many managers believe social cohesion is their responsibility?   [38:58] Competitive pressures between teams create division and undermine collaboration.   [39:54] Leaders must promote and model trust and social cohesion to cultivate environments that enable success.       RESOURCES   Andrew Mawson on LinkedIn Advanced Workplace Associates (AWA) website       QUOTES   "The name of the game is to get everybody as socially cohesive as possible to allow fluidity of movement, of knowledge and, and collision of knowledge."   "[External communication is] the idea that you should expose your knowledge and your brain to other things…. going to other places and have other people challenge your understanding so that your understandings remain fresh."   "Humans have got a finite capacity and how that capacity is loaded and eaten into is also another important part of the jigsaw."   "Organizations really are communities of connected brains…I think the first thing the leaders need to do is understand more about the brain."   "Brains are the unit of production going forward in the world of knowledge work."   "We are all actually different…We should be trying to create an environment and giving people knowledge about the status of different spaces and things in the places in the building so they can go and choose."   "The duty of a leader is to try to create a level of certainty, create a vision, and create a direction of travel that is almost independent of the turmoil that's going on."

Corinne Murray, Director of Global Workplace Experience Strategy at American Express, and Sara Escobar, Founder of Wielding Workplace, are co-authors of newly-released 'WORK then PLACE'. Corinne and Sara draw on rich backgrounds from Gensler, WeWork, Hulu, and Netflix to share insights on culture, workplace experience, and productivity. They explain the need for intentional work design driven by employee experience—digital, physical, and experiential—and how human-centric, flexible approaches empower performance in the distributed modern work ecosystem.     TAKEAWAYS   [01:50] Sara starts out in TV production and then moves to Hulu.   [03:01] Joining Hulu as a startup, Sara chooses to develop their workplace experiences. [04:10] Corinne's time at CBRE, Amex, and Gensler, inform her strategic research at WeWork. [05:23] Strong cultures at Hulu and Netflix differ but are both developed with intentional design. [06:12] American Express builds its strong culture based on benefits resulting in long-tenure norms. [07:02] Organizations are not prepared for formal hybrid models before 2020.   [07:56] Employees pushed experience and flexibility into focus post-COVID. [09:20] Architects' and Real Estate's periodic interventions limit impact on ongoing work design.   [10:45] Flexibility jumped to a top employee after their pandemic experiences. [11:36] Empathy influenced leaders to formalize more balanced, hybrid work options.   [12:45] Executives reacted emotionally to shifting work models, resisting a major overhaul. [14:30] Mandates fail to justify office returns since workplace experience is not just physical. [15:44] Corinne and Sara connect in 2021 amid return-to-office debates. [17:08] Sara launches a consultancy to inform and facilitate new workplace strategies. [17:54] Sara reaches out to Corinne to co-author a book, sharing practical strategy frameworks.   [20:05] Corinne shifts focus from productivity to effectiveness. [22:56] To 'fix' productivity, it must be shared across teams, not owned by workplace. [24:56] Managers must hold accountability and measure output, not observe activity. [26:02] HR, IT, and workplace must partner to enable teams' effective outcomes. [27:21] Physical-first remits clash with flexible work goals. [28:36] Employees now better understand what makes work function well. [30:17] Team agreements are key to performance in modern work environments.   [30:48] Trust grows from enablement, not perks or parties. [33:27] Change must be incremental to facilitate adoption and avoid burnout. [37:10] Start with high-impact, low-effort changes for users. [39:40] Strategy must flex for global, regional, and role differences. [41:03] 'Standards' can allow interpretation, like principles, to enable adaptability. [41:50] The "Daisy" model supports incremental workplace changes. [42:59] Corinne highlights knowledge work – its growth, volatility and success factors. [47:01] Sara highlights external research, such as parenting models, that offer workplace insights. [48:30] WORK then PLACE encourages humans to focus on what technology cannot replace. [49:15] Start by auditing what works to incorporate rather than rebuilding from scratch. [51:25] IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: To shift workplace experiences and outcomes, find an executive sponsor, then clarify why and how the change should happen, and how to measure progress.     RESOURCES Sara Escobar on LinkedIn Corinne Murray on LinkedIn WORK then PLACE     QUOTES   "The companies that I've worked with where the culture has been truly wonderful and truly driven forward the company's mission are where that culture is intentional." — Sara Escobar   "We are workplace people. We do believe in the value of the physical place. But it's not the catchall for everything." — Corinne Murray   "The workplace environment is truly physical, digital, and experiential." — Sara Escobar   "Productivity is the responsibility of everyone from the individual to the executives to workplace to HR to IT." — Sara Escobar   "We need to do this in a way that doesn't feel threatening and doesn't feel like an extra burden." — Corinne Murray   "If you think about, you know, old factory lines, you watched the widgets being produced. That is what we've still fallen into in knowledge work. But you can't watch knowledge work get done." — Sara Escobar   "We've identified things that are fundamentally harmful to the ability of knowledge work succeeding. And if knowledge work isn't succeeding, that means the humans doing the knowledge work aren't succeeding" — Corinne Murray  

Trond Aas is CEO and Co-Founder of Attensi, a leader in AI-powered gamified simulation training. Trond shares his background spanning quantum physics, consulting and gaming. He explains how gamification grounded in behavioral science drives engagement which enhances initial and long-term learning especially for younger employees. Trond describes motivation as a critical success factor for sustainable upskilling. He discusses metrics to demonstrate return on investment in skills development and how to improve skills gap issues starting with cultivating a trust-based culture of learning   KEY TAKEAWAYS   [01:17] Trond starts studying quantum physics to explore fundamental questions about nature.   [02:01] After doing research for his military service, Trond goes into industry seeking practical impact.   [02:38] Trond joins McKinsey as a business school type experience before pursuing entrepreneurship.   [03:10] Interest in games stems from early programming and creativity cultivated during university.   [04:08] In gaming, Trond reveals how behavioral science is used to drive engagement and learning.   [06:12] Tribal, team-based successes are key to stimulating successful collaboration online.   [06:25] Fascination with learning and awareness of superficial gamification drives Attensi's founding.   [07:44] Attensi applies science to drive motivation and behavior change with measurable results.   [09:40] Correlating simulated behavior with real-world outcomes to track learning impact.   [10:23] Measuring soft skills progress when observable behavior is hard to track.   [12:10] As technology evolves rapidly, upskilling must be ongoing across high-competence industries.   [12:50] Skill development tailored to specific job challenges is more effective than one-size-fits-all.   [13:45] Self-motivated learners thrive, while others need help to develop the motivation that anchors learning.   [14:47] Many Gen Zers lack key communication skills and may not recognize this development need.   [15:49] Most learning programs fail on motivation, which must be addressed first to succeed.   [16:22] Creating mastery experiences significantly increases learner motivation and outcomes.   [15:15] Game-based learning builds confidence that translates into better real-world performance.   [19:43] Companies underinvest in onboarding due to unclear ROI, hindering workforce readiness.   [20:08] Trond emphasizes data, ROI, and clear impact as critical for better training investment decisions.   [20:34] Attensi's research shows poor onboarding leads to lower confidence and performance.   [23:42] Skill masking arises when employees hide learning gaps, often from lack of psychological safety.   [24:18] Cultivating trust-based cultures is essential to reduce skill masking and promote learning.   [25:48] Focusing on core skills for each role facilitates the shift to becoming a skills-first organization.   [26:44] Skill-based organizations can start small and ensure programs drive skill improvements.   [28:33] Maintaining skill use needs continuous feedback, clear expectations, and learning structures.   [29:13] Organizations must define competencies to stand out and align training with competitive goals.   [30:37] Tailoring programs to learner motivation and challenges supports effective skills development.     IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: Learning motivation and skills usage are cultivated through mastery. Help employees sense their achievement to encourage their enhanced performance and growth.   RESOURCES   Trond Aas on LinkedIn Attensi's website     QUOTES   "We can use these principles of games to drive engagement, drive interest, drive motivation—and then we should be able to impact real behaviors and measure that with data."   "Most people experience poor onboarding and most people are convinced that it affects their work afterwards."   "Skill masking is that people are actually hiding the challenges that they are having."   "Are your people motivated? And if not, address that—that's what you need to address to be able to develop your organization."   "When you are able to instill a feeling of mastery in people that has a huge effect on their motivation."   "A lot of people think that one [training] system or one approach will fit with all the different employees... and I think it needs to be a lot more nuanced than that."

Will Sentance, Founder at Codesmith and Visiting Fellow at Oxford University, explores why empathy is a foundational skill in engineering. He explains how empathetic interactions are core to building software, teams, and the trust necessary to scale tech-based companies. Will reflects on Codesmith's mission to empower people through thoughtful communication in a non-hierarchical learning environment. He describes how empathy, as a relational tool, expands technologists' critical communication capabilities driving clarity and collaboration, propelling their careers.     TAKEAWAYS     [00:26] Will is drawn to the intersection of analytical and intuitive disciplines from early education.   [01:45] Will feels a deep sense of possibility through his PPE studies and aims to pass that on.   [03:05] A mentor at Oxford influences Will's brief foray into international relations at the UN.   [04:30] Not suited to be an employee, Will seeks autonomy and creative power in software engineering.   [06:00] Will finds software to be materially satisfying and empowering as a pathway to opportunity.     [07:20] A surprising response to an early JavaScript workshop reveals his teaching clarity.   [08:15] Struggling to understand complex concepts helps Will become a better educator.   [09:30] Codesmith is founded to be an alternative path to power by mastering technology.   [10:20] Teaching coding is not just technical but an empowerment vehicle for long-term careers.   [11:40] Thoughtful communication at CodeSmith recognizes others' knowledge and emotional states.   [13:00] Empathy is about adapting communication to another person's experience.   [14:30] Coding success requires explaining systems clearly—communication is as vital as code.   [16:10] Leaders like Sam Altman show that technical communication drives modern tech leadership.   [17:45] CodeSmith uses pair programming to instill empathy through precise verbal technical articulation.   [19:00] Empathy begins with self-understanding and is trained through iterative collaboration.   [20:20] Breaking down code for others builds resilience and fosters a capacity to learn continuously.   [21:45] How different learning speeds and imposter syndrome are combatted by sharing struggles.   [23:00] Codesmith instructors are alumni because lived experience cultivates trust and relatability with students.   [24:20] Will's Oxford Fellowship explores how certain skills drive opportunity in an AI-transformed job market.   [25:50] The real skill is learning how to learn and explain complex ideas using unfamiliar tools.   [27:15] Codesmith interviews measure communication, problem-solving, and how applicants handle the unknown.   [28:30] The focus is on cultivating capacities, not just teaching frameworks or programming languages.   [29:40] Engineers and non-technical people alike must build clear, empathetic communication skills.   [30:55] Workshops for non-programmers empower leaders to engage confidently with technical concepts.   [32:00] Empathetic leadership respects team members' potential rather than relying on rules-bound oversimplification.   [34:20] Scaling AI must be matched with scaling human trust across teams and organizations.   [36:00] Will warns against systems that machines understand but humans cannot, which risks alienation.   [37:30] Open-source tools preserve accessibility and transparency in a fast-moving tech landscape.   [38:45] Many leaders are not engaging with AI tools, missing key learning and leadership opportunities.   [40:10] Building the engineering mindset—problem-solving and communication—without coding.   [41:30] Struggle is not a problem in learning; it is the engine of understanding and growth.   [42:40] Empathetic development depends on trusted relationships and cannot be scaled without sincere human investment.   [44:00] IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: Deep learning happens through struggle which takes place in trust-based environments, so build trusting relationships to facilitate learning.     RESOURCES   Will Sentence on LinkedIn Codesmith's website     QUOTES   "The hardest part of coding isn't writing code—it's explaining code to others so that they can also either build it, understand it, or write it themselves." "Struggle is not a bug—it's the engine of growth." "We train empathy like nothing else in the program. We train it through pair programming." "You can't scale trust with AI. You need humans to scale trust." "We've even called it empathetic engineering at times. One of the principles of Codesmith is grow others even before yourselves." "It is not how vibey you are. It is not how chummy you are. It's pure and simply, can you precisely walk through based on the understanding of another person?" "Breaking something down means that I can have clarity about how I'm thinking about it, and therefore I can then build it up for you." "Struggle-based growth depends on someone else saying, 'You're important to me enough that I'm going to invest in you.'"  

Ginger Dhaliwal is Co-founder and Chief Product Officer of Upflex. A long-time tech entrepreneur and investor, she shares her human-first orientation which drives her passion for solving systemic challenges using technology and data—from micropayments to elder healthcare to flexible workspaces. Ginger discusses how intentional design, empathy, and sustainability are essential for building data-driven ecosystems that support a diverse, distributed workforce. She highlights behavioral indicators for shaping future-ready on-demand and long-term work environments, emphasizing collaboration and relationships.     KEY TAKEAWAYS   [00:29] Ginger studies social work and first focuses on understanding people and reskilling immigrants.   [01:40] Ginger's travel takes her to Malaysia where she joins a tech startup as the Internet takes off.     [02:35] At a government-supported R&D lab, Ginger builds a venture studio model.   [03:20] They attract international talent to spin off multiple startups solving real-world problems.   [04:05] One early product enables micropayments using mobile phone billing instead of credit cards.   [05:12] Learning to persuade large corporations to adopt emerging innovations and enter new markets.   [06:10] A healthcare venture connects remote patients in S.E. Asia to providers through internet cafés.   [06:48] Healthcare tech is adapted for the U.S. to support elders aging in place with sensor systems.   [07:50] Adoption fails to take off due to lack of interest from medical professionals in holistic data.   [08:40] Ginger gets disheartened, entrenched in the elder care community, and feels burned out.      [09:30] Considering identity, AI's impact, and future career direction.   [10:45] Personal remote work experience and coworking exposure lead to co-founding Upflex.   [11:50] Ginger sees coworking catalysing innovation with people from diverse industries co-located.   [13:10] Upflex becomes a platform to aggregate access to coworking spaces globally.   [14:40] Early clients like Nokia highlight retention, recruitment, and cost control needs.   [15:20] Real estate lacks actionable data, pushing Upflex to build a decision-support layer for companies.   [16:25] Ginger champions flexibility as a strategic asset for talent engagement, not a perk.   [17:35] COVID causes companies to confront data about remote work and location preferences.   [18:40] Upflex helps firms explore questions around hybrid work behavior using their data tools.   [19:25] Focus on location can mask deeper control and change adaptation issues in hybrid transitions.   [20:45] Data shows employees' behavior is consistent across corporate offices and on-demand coworking spaces.   [22:25] The global shift from individual desks to more collaborative meeting spaces.   [23:38] Most day passes are booked same day, while meeting rooms are booked days in advance.   [25:55] Coworking supports relationship-building and community connection as well as collaboration.   [27:30] Companies are repurposing coworking memberships for team days, pods, and local clusters.   [29:40] Upflex advises clients to view coworking as workplace strategy infrastructure.   [31:25] Businesses experiment with timeshare-type space arrangements to balance cost and access.   [33:10] Exploring partnerships with landlords to offer on-demand overflow capacity.   [34:50] AI is being integrated to optimize seat allocation and dynamic workplace management.   [36:15] Comparing Upflex's model to AWS—scalable space usage tailored to demand and cost savings.   [37:25] Ginger emphasizes redirecting real estate savings to reskilling as rapid tech changes cause workforce disruption.   [39:15] Identity loss from desk removals prompt incremental workspace changes. [41:00] IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: To problem solve right now, there's no playbook, it's iterative. Come up with questions to test. Start small. Figure out a solution. Get buy in. Gather data for feedback to refine and grow.     RESOURCES   Ginger Dhaliwal on LinkedIn Upflex website       QUOTES   "I don't need to know the answers to things as long as I'm constantly thinking about solving these problems for people."   "Coworking as a model for innovation and ideation is a wonderful thing and it's in your backyard. It's a block away from your, where you live."   "How do we create a more sustainable lifestyle for people looking at the data. People losing 15 days of their lives commuting just didn't make any sense to us."   "We can create that data layer so that people can actually make decisions based on data and understanding those preferences and how people are using space."   "A lot of office space today is designed for productivity and it's shifting to collaboration. Coworking spaces are designed for that too, but also relationships. I think the evolution is we are all going to be craving relationships. It's not the collaboration that you're going for. You're going for the relationships."   "We're working with landlords to figure out how you can create those overflow spaces and, from a corporate standpoint, be able to not build for the peak, but build for the average and then have the resources, the unlocking of the network, to handle the overflow."