Grounding energy: how to scale cloud computing and data centres with Cerio

When we say 'the cloud' what we mean is 'the data centre'. Globally, data centres are projected to consume over 1000 terawatt hours in 2026. What does that mean for energy production, distribution, and consumption? Guest Phil Harris, Cerio President and CEO, joins thinkenergy to shed light on something we all rely on but may not fully understand. From efficiency to sustainability, environmental concerns to Cerio's role improving how data centres manage energy. Listen in for the future of cloud computing.  - Related links  ●       Cerio: https://www.cerio.ai/ ●       Phil Harris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paharris/  ●       Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114  ●       Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected]. Hi everyone, and welcome back. Data centres have come up a number of times on this show, and for very good reason, they have become a key underpinning technology for so much of our lives, every time we pull out that phone from our pockets to pull up directions or buy something online or doom, scroll on your social media or new site of choice, every time you use your phone stream a movie, leverage an AI model, whatever you end up using it for, it's funny as I read this list, I'm sure there's like some university student out there who's thinking, man, what is this old man talking about? We don't use our phones for that, whatever the kids are doing these days, whatever we're doing these days with our phones, with our computers, our tablets, et cetera. All of that leverages infrastructure that most of us have never seen and, quite frankly, probably don't really understand we talk about the cloud like it's this amorphous, nebulous thing, but in reality, we're talking about real hardware in a real building that uses real energy, mainly electricity, a lot of water. And this isn't really new, like we've been leveraging centralized data centres for many years now, but what is changing is the scale of the data centres that we're seeing now, and the pace of growth in computing power that we need to do, the things that we want to do, and that our data centres are able to deliver. So just to throw a few numbers at it, the traditional data centre servers that maybe power the early days of on demand online streaming services, for example, they used anywhere from five to 15 kilowatts per rack. But modern server racks that are used to power AI searches, for example, can hit anywhere from 60 to 100 kilowatts per rack. This is great from a power output per rack perspective, but it means massive energy needs, and that is showing up in the size of load requests that we're seeing from new data centres. New data centres today are asking for service connections that are orders of magnitude higher than those built even just five years ago, globally, data centres are projected to consume over 1000 terawatts in 2026 or terawatt hours, sorry, in 2026 and just a quick kind of refresher from high school or wherever you would have learned this, a terawatt is 1000 gigawatts, which is 1000 megawatts. So 1000 terawatt hours, which is roughly equivalent to the annual electricity demand from the country of Japan, an entire country. So given all of this, there are a lot of incentives to find ways to maximize efficiency and reduce some of that energy demand, and that's where my next guest, Phil Harris and his company Cerio come into play. I'll let Phil get into the details of exactly what Cerio does, but essentially, their goal is to reimagine the data centre to maximize sustainability and reduce energy needs. Phil is Cerio's President and CEO, and has been in the networking and data centre industry for over 35 years, including at well known companies like Intel and Cisco. And I'm really excited about this conversation. One to understand, how do we make data centres a little bit more efficient, or maybe a lot more efficient, but also just to really understand, like, what are we talking about when we talk about a data centre? What is actually happening, what is physically inside these buildings, and we'll get into a little bit of that in our conversation. So Phil, welcome to the show.   Phil Harris  04:13 Well, thanks, Trevor. I appreciate it.   Trevor Freeman  04:13 So Phil, obviously we're here today to talk about your work building sustainable data centres, or trying to make data centres a little bit more sustainable. But before we get into that. You know, you've spent your career, you know, decades of your career at different tech giants. Let's call them in telecisco to to mention, you've seen quite a bit of change. No doubt, over your time, has that changed, like, does this industry change linearly? Does it grow fairly steady, or is it kind of big jumps? And are we on the cusp of any major shifts? What can you kind of tell us about the future of this, this sector, data, tech, etc?   Phil Harris  04:48 It's interesting, I think, as companies start, and I was at companies like Cisco, for example, when it was a very small company to when it was very large company. And this should be no surprise for anybody, the bigger the company gets, the harder. It is to change, and they really find that the only way they change is when they absolutely have to, not because they want to, and that's a combination of just inertia and shareholders expectations and a whole bunch of things. So I would say that the bigger the company is, the harder is them, for them to react. And so I think small, nimble companies tend to do much better when there's a lot of transformational technology and development and changes in the overall ecosystem we live in. I think just the second part of your question, you know, I look at the current situation as a point in time where a lot of companies will have to make some significant changes, simply because we're hitting too many walls, technological walls, commercial walls, geopolitical walls, that are really sort of confining what people can do. So I think what's going to about to happen is we're about to see a significant change, and this is not atypical in the industry. If we think about back into the into the start of what we would think of today as computer science around mainframes that were happening in the 60s. You know, for about a decade and a half, two decades, there was a lot of dominance around a particular way of doing things. And then some new innovational technology came along that rapidly changed, that scaled out, and it went from a very dominant set of players to a much larger number of smaller players who could then provide more innovation and more scale and more choice. And I think we're about to see that transition occurring as well.   Trevor Freeman  06:25 So is this, is there sort of like an analogous time, 10 years ago, 20 years ago? Are we on the cusp of, like, the big, the big change that we've seen before? Like, what would you compare this to? You know, in the last 2030, years?   Phil Harris  06:40 Yeah. I mean, I think there's been eras of compute. And if we say, I mean, we can find analogies outside of the compute world, but let's just stay in the compute, computing science world. I gave the mainframe example as one, and then we went to what we call client server, which scaled out rapidly. Telephony. We went from large, big telephone exchanges that started in in the government space, went to very large organizations. Now, basically we've completely scaled out how we make phone calls to use that now 20th century as a terminology. Nobody really makes telephone calls anymore. And we went through this with cloud computing and the Internet, where there was a change in the approach to the way we did things that suddenly gave us a scale out mentality, rather than a scale up mentality. And I think that's what we have to key in on here. Is it that we can take some of you? I was on a panel yesterday where we were talking about scale, and I say, well, to scale or not to scale? That is not the question. It's how do we scale? Do we continue to scale up, which is the current model, or do we start to think about scaling out, which is a more distributed model? So we go from a small number of big things to a large number of smaller things. And typically in computer science, whatever you want to start, storage, compute, memory, telephony, everything we've ever done goes through this arc.   Trevor Freeman  07:59 Yeah, it's it's interesting, and it's, there's obviously my brain's gonna immediately try and find those, those similarities between my world that I live in on the energy side of things. And it's the same question, like, there, there's, there is no path where we're not expanding the amount of energy we need. We're not going to be using more energy. But there are different ways to do that, and there are different paths we can take the business as usual that just grow, grow, grow, decentralized energy production and large scale transmission. Or there's a combination of like, grow those things, but also find alternative methods. More ders more sort of like close to consumer energy sources and storage, et cetera, et cetera. And people that listen to this podcast know I kind of go on ad nauseam about this. So lots of similarities. There another kind of framing or foundational thing that I want to talk through before we really get into the meat of our conversation is helping ground both myself and our listeners, and what exactly we're talking about here. So we, we all use, whether we know it or not, we use, you know, like cloud computing constantly, whether it's in our calls, how we're using the internet, using AI, more, more frequently. Now, what is the physical reality behind that? What's actually happening? What is the term data centre? What is a data centre for our listeners here? What does that look like?   Phil Harris  09:26 Yeah, let's start there. That's a great question. We started recognizing that the amount of power and space required for computers in companies and government in all sorts of different applications was getting larger than we could put in a room, in a closet near maybe where people were using it. We had to sort of create dedicated space, because the power requirements, the cooling requirements, just the noise. You can't hear this, but just in my basement, I have a few different compute systems that my wife continues to tell me is keeping my neighborhood awake. The reality is the environmentals of these things became very difficult. So we created these purpose built locations that had then different requirements in terms of access and facilities and power and cooling and staffing. And so they became a new way of thinking about building compute infrastructure at a building level, not just at the individual computers themselves. So a data is usually a very large room or building, I should say that houses large amounts of compute and storage and other networking equipment. There's a whole range of different technologies that go into a data centre that allows us to process information. That's what a data centre is. To give you some analogies in the US, there's about nearly 6000 data centres, depending on how you measure a data centre. In Canada, we have about 400 in Europe, there's about 750 that we can identify as standalone data centres. You can probably find more places where computers are outside of people's homes, but that's about the ratio we're looking at.   Trevor Freeman  10:59 And we're seeing, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong here, like, all this talk about the AI proliferation, data centre proliferation, we're seeing an expansion of these. Is that we're seeing the size of these data centres expand, or we're seeing just more of them popping up. Like, what does it mean when we say we're seeing, like, data centre growth because of AI, what does that mean?   Phil Harris  11:24 Well, it's fascinating, because now our worlds collide, because the way we now think about how to describe a data centre isn't in the square footage or the number of computers, it's in how much power it consumes, and we now measure it in megawatts, and it starts in 10 megawatts, or single digit megawatts, very small data centres, into average size data centres in the 10s of megawatts, up to now the hundreds and the gigawatts of consumption that you look at these hyperscalers. But I think we have to put this into a sort of a human scale. It helps us to put this in human scale. If I were to go back to ChatGPT actually about now, 15 months ago. ChatGPT-4. If you were to put that data centre footprint into the province of Ontario, for example, where you and I both are right now, it would be the equivalent of a million internal combustion engine cars driving 30 kilometers a day, if you ever drive up the 401 you probably don't want to see another million cars on the 401 Yeah, but that's the amount of energy that we can think of in terms of a data centre of that scale.   Trevor Freeman  12:33 Yeah, and again, kind of putting it in the electrical industry's terms, what we consider as a large load so we have a specific designation of a large load request that is anything five megawatts and higher. And like, up until recently, we would get one or two of those every once in a while, like, it's pretty rare to get a large load request. We are seeing large load requests coming in at a near constant pace now, like the number of large load requests we're getting, and a lot of it is because of this, not all because of data centres or anything like that, but a lot of them are certainly driven by that need for more more computing power, more facilities that support that.   Phil Harris  13:18 That's right. And at the same time, we're seeing a demand on on energy around now home, EV charging, and other aspects of the general distribution of the power, everything's taking a step function. But if I could just say one thing to your point about before I was seven megawatts, was a high load, then we may need to change that scale. It's almost inefficient to build a data centre unless you're somewhere above the 10 megawatt range, because at that point, get somebody else to do it for you.   Trevor Freeman  13:42 Interesting, yeah, and that's where it's sort of like, almost like, renting space in a data centre for a request of that size. Interesting, something that you know, I've seen kind of in your in your writing, on your on your blogs, is the idea that traditional data centres are really built for peak capacity, which absolutely mirrors the power industry. We build our electrical grids for peak capacity, and obviously that leads to a fair amount of inefficiencies. So if you're building just a peak capacity, if you're not at peak capacity, there is an inefficiency happening. There something that you identified. It's a stat from your research talks about graphics processing unit usage rates as low as 20 or 25% so I'm assuming that means kind of like three quarters of that hardware is sitting idle or not being used valuably. Tell us a little bit about what, what Cerio what you're doing, what your composable architecture specifically is doing to reclaim that wasted power and cooling capacity,   Phil Harris  14:44 Yeah, and so it starts off with your the premise you correctly raised is that, if we think about the the equipment, the physical equipment, and how we put these devices and these components together in a data centre, the same model we've been using today is, is about 3035, Years old in terms of individual compute systems, where we run applications, software that has memory and central processing units, those typical things you have in a laptop, or you have every computer. But then we put these accelerators, these GPUs, companies like Nvidia now are the one most valuable companies on the planet, if not the most valuable planet company on the planet, because that's the technology they develop. But we're trying to put these new class of accelerators into an existing compute model which wasn't designed for this. So then itself now starts to fragment the ability to leverage those resources in a data centre. And as you accurately said, it's interesting. If I could geek out on this a little bit for the energy consumer in the room, please. Do we think? We think about the notion not only the megawatts of power going into the data but we we think about what we call power usage efficiency. And that basically says, whatever the power delivered to a data centre, how much of that is applicable to the IT systems in that data centre, a good, well run, efficient data centre is about 1.2 that means about 1.2 times the amount of power that's used is delivered. Your home, for example, is about 30 times the amount of power we use is what's delivered. We are very inefficient from our home use, by the way. But that's another problem to solve in another podcast, but in this case, that's all true until we then ask the question, but what's actually being used at that equipment? And that's now in that 25 to 30% range at any point in time, and we refer to that as stranded and idle assets that, for whatever reason, aren't where the application is or aren't applicable to be used for the application that moment because they're in some other box, or it's a time of day when people use equipment. And by the way, equipment like that isn't being used 24 by seven, but it's drawing power 24 by seven, right? So there's lots of inherent inefficiencies in that model. So what we do is we provide the ability to dynamically have pools of resources where we can dynamically attach resources to a compute system as required, at the scale you're required, and allowing you to be much more efficient in the timing of that and the amount of equipment required to meet your end solution. And by doing that, we can increase the number of accelerators that you apply to a compute system, which inherently means you are much more efficient in those compute systems, because it's not just the computers. As I said before, there's storage, there's firewalls, there's load balances, there's networking equipment, all of that can now be much more efficiently used. All of that is drawing power.   Trevor Freeman  17:35 So is the idea, then, that the equipment not being used, or when you're at a lower demand time in terms of computing power, you've got physical equipment idling, sort of in more idle mode, drawing less resources that you can then ramp up so the peak amount of equipment still there. You're just being more efficient with it when it's not being used. And you've developed a way to sort of dynamically pull that in. Is that what I'm hearing.   Phil Harris  18:00 Exactly, I'll give you an example. A data centre here in Toronto wanted to have a block of 128 GPUs. They could have, they could they could service their customers with, with the current systems they were using previously to deploying our infrastructure, they had to require deploy, actually, 200 GPUs and a very large number of servers in the to house those GPUs. By deploying this area technology, they brought that down to 136 actual GPUs, and they reduced the number of compute platforms by a factor of four. So they reduced it by 75%.   Trevor Freeman  18:35 Yeah, that's fantastic,   Phil Harris  18:36 With exactly the same outcomes to their customers. With no no contention for resources, no oversubscription of resources, just more efficient use of those resources.   Trevor Freeman  18:46 Gotcha. So still able to meet that peak demand, but not sort of firing up that equipment when it's not needed.   Phil Harris  18:53 Well, not just not firing it, not having to have as much stranded equipment, because we can use all the equipment all the time.   Trevor Freeman  19:01 Gotcha. Okay, so in when I was kind of setting up that last question, I used the term composable architecture, and I'll admit that I pulled that from your material. Help me understand what that means. So you know that I've also seen you use composable infrastructure sounds a bit abstract, like, what? What are we talking about here? What does that actually look like?   Phil Harris  19:20 When a consumer, or someone who's building a data centre buys their computer equipment, they usually will actually buy the computers, the GPUs, the storage and other things at the same time, and they will get delivered together, and that box now becomes a unit of compute capacity. But the thing about that is whether you're able to use that entire capacity, the length in which that's a useful there's a lot of innovation churn right now as new things are coming through very quickly. But that box is now solid. You know, it's statically built for the rest of its life. Pretty much, it's very expensive. IBM did a study to take a server out of a rack, these big, six foot racks or bigger, where. These servers are housed with lots of wires going into them, power and data and all sorts of things. It's about $1,000 a minute to take one of those servers out of the rack and either change something that's broken, update something so they just don't get taken out of the rack. Because the average time to take a server out of the rack is about an hour. The math on that's pretty simple. So if I'm spending $60,000 to upgrade a 20,030 $1,000 server, I'm just gonna leave it there and buy another one. So that creates more of these stranded assets. So composability says, Let's separate these things into, as I said, pools of resources, compute accelerators and other devices, and have a fabric between them that allows us to, in real time, assemble a compute system that I need. That's the composing part as I need it, because I can now take the resources anywhere in my data centre, if you've got the right fabric, which we've built that allows you then to real time build that compute system with exactly the same capabilities, exactly the same performance, and without having to change any of your software or the way the service work. Everything has to be off the shelf to make this work, and that's what we've built.   Trevor Freeman  21:05 Got you. So, two of the terms, and you'll forgive me, this is sort of a new sector for me. Two of the terms that are used as metrics to determine performance are power usage, effectiveness, and you've kind of talked about, you know, GPU usage. Is the industry moving more towards that GPU usage metric? Is that just something that you guys are kind of leading the curve on? Or where are we at on that?   Phil Harris  21:34 Oh no, this is very much the industry way of describing not just efficiency, but requirements. And we use very weird terms for this. Every industry has their weird term. Weird terminology, and we're now moving to the for example, in AI, the number of tokens per second when you and I put a request or a question into ChatGPT or CoPilot or chord, whatever we use, those words get translated into tokens, actually numbers. Every compute system is just a big calculator. At the end of the day, we do, we do massive processing on numbers. How many of those tokens can I put into the system? How long does it take to process those tokens and give me a response? And the tokens per second, per watt is now what we're asking. So how many tokens a second, and what power per token is it costing me to process information? And that's the interesting way of thinking about how AI, for example, and that's value started this conversation will be measured is the most amount of tokens per second, per watt. Now, right now, we're focusing on tokens per second. We're not looking at the last denominator, which is watts. So that's why these data centres are getting so ridiculous. Ridiculously large. And you know, we even heard it in the in the State of the Union address in the United States earlier in the week, where, you know, there's now the administration pushing cloud vendors and AI vendors to say, Hey, pretty soon you're gonna be on your own about delivering power. Because, quite frankly, the way you're going. It's going to become untenable to think about that from a national grid perspective. Now, I think that may be a little bit into the future, but I don't think it's a completely unreasonable sentiment at this point.   Trevor Freeman  23:12 Yeah, and I mean, you're talking about, and we talked earlier about the just the scale of energy usage here is reaching a new height, a new level. And if we break it down to the individual racks, you know, these racks of servers or processors that you've got in your data centre, we're now talking about anywhere from 50 kilowatts to 100 kilowatts of cooling need. And that's the big driver of energy usage, I think, is correct here is the cooling need per rack multiplied by, of course, big numbers to get those, you know, 5-10-20-30, megawatt data cetnre we're talking about when we talk about cooling and we talk about, you know, hot spots within a data centre, how does your approach differ from kind of the standard way of doing it.   Phil Harris  24:02 So that's a great question, and I think we should explain why the cooling part, it's a bit like buying really good, expensive wagyu steak every day and then having to spend a lot of money on a gym membership to then go and burn off those calories. So we put all this power into power these compute systems, but then we have to keep them cool, and the harder they that, the faster they run, the more powerful they run, the hotter they get. But we need to cool them. So there's this relationship between the more power we draw, the more cooling we need, and cooling is becoming, as I said, that sort of trade off for performance. Now there's lots of exotic ways of cooling computer systems. We can just blow air across them. We can have a liquid like the radiator in your car, or we can literally drop these compute systems into bars of solvents. Ferdinand Porsche, I like to use of other industry analogies. Ferdinand Porsche, the guy who obviously designed the first Porsches and the VW Beetle, realized if I could distribute the heat of the engine block with a horizontal block, I could blow air across it. It was much more efficient than trying to put a radiator to actually cool down the engine block the way that other cars who have the engine in the front, and it's because of surface area. Now, if I've got to put all my GPUs and CPUs and memory close together, either in the same box or the same rack, that concentration of heat needs to be addressed with cooling. One of the ways we can address this is not only to be very selected when I compose the GPU, it's the only time it's drawing power, but also I can spread them out through my data centre by having a fabric that allows me to connect them to the compute systems with the same performance, but now I can distribute my heat generation. That means I can cool more efficiently, just like that Fernand Porsche analogy of the of the Porsche 911 because now heat over over, spread of distance and surface area is a more efficient way, which means it won't mean that we won't ever get to liquid cooling. I don't think immersion cooling is a good idea for lots of other reasons. It's a necessity, more than an optimization, but we can defer the complexity, the cost of those exotic cooling systems if we're more efficient in a way we use and design our data centres.   Trevor Freeman  26:18 And I guess there's a similar description there of, if you're concentrating all that heat in a specific, you know, physical area within a bigger building room, whatever you want to call it, that that cooling system is having to work to that peak cooling need, so to that hot spot effectively. But it's not working just on that spot. It's working across the whole physical area. If you're spreading that cooling need out across the whole room, one the peak is a little bit lower, and you're just more effectively using your whole cooling system. Is that fair to say?   Phil Harris  26:52 And that's exactly the right way of looking at this. And think about it from this perspective as well. The reason we have to cool is because if we don't call sufficiently, those devices become very unreliable and reduce a useful lifespan without going into who, because they keep this information confidential. But one large cloud provider in the US, for example, a GPU that normally has a lifespan of at least three years, is going down to about nine months right now. And the reason for that reduction the lifespan of the use of that GPU, is because of the heating characteristics within these boxes that are getting even with all these cooling mechanisms are becoming now a reduction in the lifespan. So that means we have to create even, remember, I said what it costs to take a system out of a rack. That means we don't have to apply an efficient and effective cooling strategy, our power strategy and cooling trategy, then we start hitting problems very quickly.   Trevor Freeman  27:50 Got you okay. Okay, so there's a mantra that I admit I hadn't seen before until kind of reading some of your material. It's, it's friends. Don't let friends build data centres. And I think it's referring to, you know, this, this move. And there's so many industries that kind of do this cycle of centralization to decentralization, and the sort of data movement went towards that centralization, and you saw these big, massive data centres. But there's, there's kind of a move now back to, let's call it decentralization or repatriation of data. And so for various geopolitical reasons, organizations, companies, governments, are wanting to pull their data back home and have it kind of be more in their control, living in their own servers. So how are you or how is Cerio helping companies kind of get back into the data centre business or repatriate their data without, kind of, you know, getting into the troubles that led for to that centralization in the first place?   Phil Harris  28:55 Yeah, and by the way, I can't take real credit for that quote. Cole Crawford, who was one of the early guys at Facebook before it became META, and was one of the leading voices in the Open Compute platform movement, which is try and standardize how we do these things. Cole is now the CEO of a company called Vapor IO, and what he was really saying is, it's so complicated and difficult to run data centres, let alone building the capital expense. AI isn't just one thing. There's lots of stages in the workflow of AI. We train these big models. You have heard of large language models like ChatGPT or copilot, but what we use them for the results of those trained models is what we call inference. Now you'll now hear about agentic AI, where we turn those results into actions. Okay, that's the agency part of agentic. Well, the use of AI in the corporate world is now becoming, as you said, both regulated, but from an intellectual property perspective, it's about how I control my data and my information. Because if I put that all into somebody else's large language model, I basically put. Populated somebody else's large language model with what might be my proprietary information or information that's very sensitive, and it's one of the reasons why you'll hear in the press about anthropic for example, trying to put guardrails around the use of their AI, because they're very sensitive to this. Most enterprises, governments of all sorts, have realized, though, they need to have run this in their own data centres, because they need to have control over this in control over this information and the use of this information, that's the repatriation you're talking about, moving these workloads now into the organization that previously said, Hey, cloud computing can take this problem. We're going to now figure out how enterprises, which are far many more of them in far more diverse locations, can now build their own data centres and get the right power, the right efficiency, the right capabilities at the right cost.   Trevor Freeman  30:47 Does that open the door? I mean, earlier, you talked about, you know, if we're talking about a five megawatt data centre, it's almost not worth it. You know, that's just sort of renting space in someone else's. How does that track with an organization that won't have enough data or enough computing power, whatever the metric is to warrant a 30 megawatt data centre for their own data, but wants to get that that control, wants to bring it more in house, is our is your technology helping those smaller data centres exist? Is that the correlation there?   Phil Harris  31:18 We can now move it into one of the things that we another couple of terms that may be an maybe not your your listeners may not be familiar with in the compute world or the data centre world, we talk of brownfield and Greenfield. Brownfield is that which is already there. Greenfield is something I have to build new. A lot of the Brownfield world is what is the predominant sort of quantity of compute power on the planet is primarily brownfield The question is, can I take that existing infrastructure and put the capabilities we've been describing in this discussion into those brownfields? So I can reduce the cost of the expansion of that because I can reuse the compute equipments there, I can now add just the discrete GPU technology, for example, into an existing data centre that doesn't therefore blow the power budget or the cooling envelope within that environment, but I can still now start taking advantage as I figure out what my larger plans are, and at the same time, how do we have a tier of providers? I'll give you an example. There's a company in, again, in Canada, think on who are building a data centre in in Ottawa, it's going to have its own liquid natural LNG as its source of power for its own power requirements. Why? Because they can have the power they need as they need it in that location, and they can provide that secure infrastructure for both government and private enterprises, and think on is certainly in Canada, one of those companies that's really seen to be a trusted partner in this. So it will be a bit of what can I do myself? How do I have a trusted partner? We think of sovereign AI a lot. That means trust more than anything, and that's becoming the new mechanism of thinking about this.   Trevor Freeman  33:04 Thinking about the environmental impact of tech and of data. We've talked about the energy usage here, but there's also the physical aspect to it. Of the pace of improvement in technology means we see obsolescence, or we see kind of technology being outdated fairly quickly. We all, like on the personal level. We all see this with our cell phones, our smartphones, our whatever tech we have at home that seems to be out of date fairly soon. I think that the stat, or that the saying that's out there is, you know, tech is kind of obsolete or becomes trash within three years. Obviously, this is not sustainable. Is this part of the drive of what you're doing? Is it? Are you looking to sort of extend the life of the physical equipment you've touched on this a little bit, but maybe expand a little bit on that?   Phil Harris  33:52 Yeah, this goes a little bit back to that Brownfield-Greenfield discussion. But one way of looking at I guess, is when I put all of these components into what the classic model, the current model, I put my central processing unit, my memory, my storage, my GPUs, all in the same box. What is the thing in that box that I want to take advantage of as new innovation happens, versus that which is happening over a slower evolutionary cycle? Well, right now, if I put everything in the same compute unit. Go back to my cost of taking that box out of the rack. I'm pretty much limited by the slowest innovation curve within that platform. Now as what I can take advantage over time. Interestingly, GPUs are innovating currently at a clip of about once a year. Nvidia comes out the new generation of GPUs once a year, but now we're getting more GPUs into the market. We're getting much more diversity, and that diversity means I'll have more options more often. But if my compute system itself is only innovating once every three years to your point, then if I don't decouple these things, if I don't have the ability to separate these innovations. Curves. I'm always stuck with the slowest innovation curve. One of the things we've done at serial with the fabric we've built and the platform we've built is to allow you now to, if you like, dislocate those innovation curves and those options, so as new technology comes along, I can apply it to the things that are innovating slower and still get the outcomes I'm looking for. And that will significantly increase the existing lifespan of equipment that's in people's data centre.   Trevor Freeman  35:26 So, looking at a data centre of the future, and not, you know, not far into the future, let's say 5-10, years from now, are we seeing some of the same technology still exist within that data centre, or is it, you know, everything gets cycled out within like, what's the generation of a data centre, for example? Like, how often, or how soon will we see it all cycle out?   Phil Harris  35:48 I think you there's a there's a technical answer to that, and the financial answer to that. The depreciation model, so that the capital infrastructure can be written off people's books over a three or five year window is very typical. So we see that there's just a financial inhibition to changing more or faster than that three to five year window. The technical churn, as I said, is happening much more rapidly in the technologies that are drawing most power but providing most capability. So one of the things that we're looking at is how companies now start leasing infrastructure, because if they lease the infrastructure, they can now recycle that and bring new technology in faster into their organizations. But to do that, you've got to have the ability to bring new technology in and not be stuck with these static systems that we have today. So there's a set of financial instruments, and now with work that Cerio is doing, technical capabilities that allow customers to really continue to innovate. So there's no real, hey, it's going to be all churned out in three years. I'll continue to innovate over those three years, reciting the technology that can stay where it is and bringing new technologies as it becomes available at the right financial model.   Trevor Freeman  36:56 I'm curious about what that innovation is. So you talked about Nvidia, kind of essentially a new GPU every year. There's a new version every year. What is the innovation? Are they just is it getting faster and more compute power, and therefore it's pulling more energy? And is that just like a perpetual increase, or is it kind of same compute power, less energy, like, do we ever see, I guess what I'm what I'm getting at with this little bit of a ramble here is, do we ever see that that rate of change in energy usage start to flatten out and come down while we still can grow our computing power? Or does energy usage just continue to grow? Like, are we on a bit of a path with no end right now,   Phil Harris  37:44 History taught us a little bit about this. Gordon Moore, who was one of the founders of Intel actually, we had this term called Moore's Law, and Moore's Law was basically this idea that every 18 months we'll double the number of transistors on a piece of silicon. Now, for those in the computer science world, we understand what that means. For the rest of the world, the Trans World. The transistor is the smallest unit of technology within the computer. It's the basic building block of how we build computers. The central processing is all the GPUs. They all come down to taking literally silicon and in a foundry, we call them, figuring out how to make as many transistors interconnect with each other in a in a smaller area as possible, or the most amount of transistors we can. So a bit of a geeky answer to your question. But the way that we look at how each innovation improves is, are we increasing the number of transistors, which means we can do more math? Remember, all we're doing is processing numbers.   Trevor Freeman  38:41 Per unit, per physical unit, right?   Phil Harris  38:43 Per physical unit.   Trevor Freeman  38:44 Okay.   Phil Harris  38:45 And the way we do that is in these big foundries that process all this silicon into these components. They have, what are called process nodes and the and literally how we etch a transistor, it's called lithography onto a piece of silicon. Tells us the power of that piece of silicon and the more I can etch. So we get into what we call the nanometer scale, or what we call a process node. So every time, if you really look into the spec sheets of Nvidia, every generation, they'll talk about how many nanometers their silicon process is based on. Because the smaller I can get that number, the more transistors I can have on the same amount of silicon, the more processing I have, but every transistor takes power. So with more transistors, I require more power, even though in the same physical space, it looks like the same amount of silicon. Therefore, your question was a great one. Do we ever get to zero nanometers? Well, no, we're going to hit a wall here eventually. So then the question is, that's the scale up model. Try and make one thing as big as possible. How about if we make lots of things powerful, but we have more of them in China, the last year, we heard of deep seek. Deep seek was a Chinese government sponsored effort to try and come up with a. Much more cost effective way of doing the equivalent to ChatGPT. They didn't do that with bigger GPUs. They did it with much smaller GPUs, but many more of them. And that comes back to how efficient I am in deploying lots of things together. And that goes back to my earlier point about we start with scale up. Inevitably, in the industry, we go to scale out.   Trevor Freeman  40:22 And is it fair to say that the power usage per transistor, is that fairly static? Like, is there efficiencies to gain there? Or your GPU is going to use more power because you're packing more transistors into it, and once you hit that wall, that's going to be the power consumption level, is that, right?   Phil Harris  40:43 Well, this is the games that these silicon manufacturers, like Intel, AMD, Nvidia, they're all trying to figure out how to sort of figure out new and interesting ways of packaging all of the silicon in these processing units. And we've got a whole industry and science around the packaging mechanism to make those tiles, and that we now think of them as little tiles of processing power, and some that will be doing very specific jobs. Some will be doing very general jobs. It's now getting to the point where the science around the packaging of these dyes or these tiles is as much as the of the of the innovation, as the actual tiles and the processing on them. So it's an extremely complex technical problem, and we are hitting some walls here, which is why I go back to my earlier point. We're now reaching a point where is it just a technical problem we're solving, or a technical, operational and commercial problem we have to think about? And this is that wall that wall that you asked me about right at the beginning of this conversation. Are we about to hit a wall? And the answer is, yes.   Trevor Freeman  41:46 Interesting. I mean, I'm always fascinated by like, what are the what are the really smart people in the industry focusing their time on? And it's so that's why we're talking to you. Of you know, you're looking at, how do we operationalize this. How do we get the most efficient combination and structure of what we're doing here? There's folks that are looking at, how do we pack the most computing power efficiency into these specific units? I guess there's an aspect of, how do we cool this in the in the most effective way, like, what's, how do we, you know, drive down the cooling power needed? What else is out there, in terms of, like, we have smart people focused on this efficiency. What's the thing that's missing from that, that sort of list?   Phil Harris  42:36 Well, I think maybe what's going on right now. And if I could just add a, unfortunately, just one more layer of complexity.  Remember said we were processing silicon? Well, the Earth's got lots of silicon, but we don't have lots of places to process that silicon. The companies that are formed to process silicon into these processing units, we call them foundries. The world's largest is TSMC, based in Taiwan. And then we have Intel, we have Samsung, we have a few others around the world. Global Foundry is another one. There is a limit, physical limit, because these foundries are huge and they take decades of development and optimization. So if we start breaking ground on a new foundry tomorrow, we'll see output in about five years. So we have a constrained supply. So if I'm if I'm Jensen at Nvidia or any of the big silicon manufacturers, I'm going to optimize that relatively constrained supply to where I'm going to get the best return on my investment. And that's why this scale up model is happening. So given that we know that we won't have any more foundry capacity of scale for another couple of years, at least, then the reality is we've got to think differently about how we're thinking about the processing of that silicon. Do I want just ever bigger processes that become more expensive, more limited in where I can deploy them. And quite frankly, the top 15 consumers in the world of silicon consume about 80% of that silicon, if not more. How do I democratize that? Again, it goes from scale up to a scale out model, where I can use that same processing capacity to produce more silicon.   Trevor Freeman  44:20 Fascinating. Yeah, I just, I took us down a little bit of a nerd out path. You had me really interested in that. Okay, so last question here, we hear this term for a bunch of different reasons. Around the world right now we're hearing this term democratizing, happening a lot, and I know you've talked about democratizing, AI, what does that mean? What does that mean to you, or describe that for us?   Phil Harris  44:48 Yeah, I think it really means. Going back to my last point about if 15 big consumers of silicon are going to consume the vast majority of verbal supply chain, that makes the. At a losing proposition for the rest of the organizations and the rest of the governments and the rest of the individuals on the planet. So how do we make sure that AI can be built both responsibly from a sustainability perspective, right? And I don't mean just the ecological side, but that's important here too, but also from the ability to I was on a panel yesterday between the UK Government and the Canadian government, where we're looking at how do countries around the world have the ability to control their own destiny? And there's this whole notion of sovereignty and AI sovereignty right now that isn't because people want to have closed walls around them, that you want to have choice. They don't want to be dictated to by very dominant players where they, quite frankly, don't have the buying power to compete. You know that the amount of capital going into some of the AI companies, we saw $30 billion going into anthropic last week. That's actually a small increase in their capitalization relative to the other big AI players on the planet. That's $30 billion so we've got to think to ourselves, is that a sustainable model commercially? And the answer is no. So we've got to have technology. We've got to have the right ability to deliver power. We've got to have the right designs of data centres that can keep them cooled in an effective and efficient and responsible way. And we've got to be able to give them enough power to make them viable, to make them useful. That's the democratization we all have to be focused on.   Trevor Freeman  46:25 And we need every, I guess, to sort of round of the point is we need everybody to be able, everybody being, you know, whatever, major industry, countries, whoever, to be able to access that equally, so that we don't have to rely on the major players out there in order to do those things you just said, gotcha.   Phil Harris  46:41 That's exactly right. And look, there'll always be a pyramid here. There always has been a technology. There's always still the big players, right? But the question is, have the big players the stifled out the ability for smaller players to come up, innovate, provide choice, provide alternative ways of looking at things, and that's what got to make sure that we keep the and this always relies on some new technology coming along that enables that. Sarah believes that we've created that next layer in the stack, if you like, of technologies that gives us that opportunity to rethink the innovation curve going forward.   Trevor Freeman  47:14 Very fascinating. Phil, thanks for your time. I really appreciate it. This has been super interesting. It's not an area that I often get to spend my time thinking about so is great to chat today. As as you know, we always kind of round out our interviews with the same series of questions to our guests. So what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?   Phil Harris  47:34 Well, I'm not sure I can recommend this for everybody. One of the people who basically, along the lines of some of the things I've been talking about today, who revolutionized the computer world was a gentleman by the name of Linus Torvald in Helsinki in Finland. At the time, he's now based in the States, he realized that there was a dominance around how the operating systems on computers, the things that run the software, was limiting, basically, innovation choice and forcing us down a very closed path. So he wrote something called Linux, which was a new operating system. So be on your phone, your TV, your microwave that's running Linux today. Interesting because there wasn't an operating system that we could then generally deploy. That meant there was more developers had the ability to write applications, more hardware vendors could now have software they could run on their on their platforms. He gave the world a new innovation curve. And every time this happens to my last point, good things happen. Very good things happen for the world, for every individual on the planet. And Linus was one of those individuals who saw that need. And so his book, just for fun, and he's a very quirky guy, as you can probably imagine, is a great book about his philosophical approach to what it takes to change really big problems. And I would encourage all of you just to even just read the first few chapters. It's a fascinating view of how an incredibly smart man, smart individual took on probably one of the biggest problems we had in the 20th and 21st Century of computing, and solved it by recognizing you take a different path.   Trevor Freeman  49:11 Yeah, very cool.   Phil Harris  49:12 As far as shows, um, I don't know. I'm one of these guys. I've got two 13 year old daughters. So my wife and I get to watch TV for a very limited amount of time where we can watch it, about the things we want to watch, so we tend to sort of cram things in. But I'm a huge Aaron Sorkin fan, so if I ever need something on a rainy day to go back just to think about how the world could be, I watch the West Wing. It's a show that's imaginary. It's got incredible script writing, it's got incredible character development, but it really talks about how to think about doing the right thing as well. Now, whether you agree with the politics or not, that's a different question, but just the thought that smart thinking solves big problems, again, sort of It's a bit like the Linus Torvald book. It just speaks to me about sometimes we can solve big problems. With individuals or people who just had the right way of thinking about things.   Trevor Freeman  50:00 Yeah, I think that's the kind of, you know, call it entertainment, because it is entertainment, but it's the entertainment that sticks with you, and that we go back to time and again, is the ones that we can also, like, see the the underlying philosophy, or, you know, theory of change that goes into that entertainment. And it's, it's fun to watch. It's, you know, either humorous or dramatic or whatever, but there's still that underlying message. And I think, yeah, West Wing is a great example of of that. There's a handful of those other sort of classic shows that are in that line too. A free round trip flight anywhere in the world. Where would you go?   Phil Harris  50:40 This is hard. My wife and I were talking about this the other day, and I've had the luxury of traveling just about everywhere. I think there's 15 countries on the planet I haven't been to, but if I ever want to go to one place is Bali. And there's two reasons. One, my wife and I went there for a honeymoon, and it was the beginning of the most important chapter of my life by far. And secondly, it's because it has that balance of everything. It's I love to scuba dive. I love the rainforests, the jungle, the architecture, the people, the food. It just brings everything into one package for me. And so it just again. It's those things that sort of speak to you emotionally and also intellectually. It's one of those things that I could always go back too.   Trevor Freeman  51:26 Fantastic. Who is someone that you admire?   Phil Harris  51:29 In history or today?   Trevor Freeman  51:32 You pick, anything.   Phil Harris  51:33 that's fascinating. I think historically it's under Brit it's hard not to go back to some of my forebears, or my country's forebears, Alan Turing, who, against all adversity, social, political, technical, came up with an inspirational way of thinking about solving what are deemed to be unsolvable. And again, it's a tragic story. I think we've all, if you see the movie that was made about his life, it's a very tragic story, but it's an inspirational story about how, again, if you just take a different approach to solving what seems to be an unsolvable problem, you can you get smart people together. Doesn't have to be a big army of people. I think so. Turing is one of those people that always comes back for me t think, wow, if I could have just some of his courage and some of his imagination and some of his intellect, I'd be a very happy person.   Trevor Freeman  52:29 Yeah, and it's almost, I mean, obviously, a brilliant man, but it's the willing to think in a different way, or willing to approach a problem in a different way that I mean, there's a long list in history of major turning points that are as a result of someone thinking in a different way or doing something in a different way. And I think that's a great example of it.   Phil Harris  52:49 Just about the entire course of human life are in the midpoint of the 20th century, change on that, that man's inspiration, that man's imagination.   Trevor Freeman  52:57 Yeah, and that's, that's not an understatement. That's fantastic. Okay, last question, what's something about, kind of the energy sector, or, you know, your sector that that you're really excited about, or something that you see in the future that you're really excited about?   Phil Harris  53:09 Actually, I see it now, to be honest, there are things in the future. Hey, I have two 13 year old kids. I want to have a sustainable ecology and world environment for them to live in and bring their own families up in. And I think about how we can use power more efficiently, but how we can make it look sustainability is important. I want to see renewable, sustainable energy for the general world as a thesis right now. It's how we can be much more efficient in the use of power and the right power delivery. And I think, as I said, I gave the think on example, that's incredibly exciting, because now, if we can do that at scale, that's an opportunity to do that democratization that I spoke about. So when I think about the things that really excited me about the data centre world, the world I live in, actually that power generation and power availability in a clean, effective, well managed fashion is exactly what we need right now, while the rest of us are solving these transistor problems.   Trevor Freeman  54:04 Yeah, it's, I mean, our listeners are probably going to roll their eyes, because I say this all the time, but one of the things that excites me the most is seeing like we're in a period of change, and that's a really exciting time to be working in this and I kind of hear that from you in your sector as well, and I see it in mine, in the energy sector of we're actually getting to see some of this innovation, some of these like leaps and bounds forward. That's not to say there aren't still problems. It's not to say there aren't steps backwards as well. But it's very cool to be working on this in a time when we're seeing that change, and that's kind of what I'm hearing from you as well. Indeed. Awesome. Phil, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. This has been great. Chatting with you.   Phil Harris  54:42 Trevor, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you.   Trevor Freeman  54:44 Fantastic. Take care.   Phil Harris  54:46 Take care.   Trevor Freeman  54:47 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you whether. Feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].

How are we preparing the next generation of energy professionals? Kieran Graham, student of the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University, is set to embark on his career in the energy sector. Kieran joins thinkenergy to chat about his studies, from thermodynamics to power generation, regulatory to economic aspects, and what's on the horizon for the industry and his future. Listen in for a fresh perspective on the future of energy with a next-gen energy professional. Related links: Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program, Carleton University: https://admissions.carleton.ca/programs/sustainable-and-renewable-energy-engineering/ APEX Lab, Carleton University: https://carleton.ca/apex/ Kieran Graham on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kierangraham1/ Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/  - Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone and welcome back. We know that we are already in this period of change that we call the energy transition, but this is not a short term thing. We will be in this period of change for years and likely decades to come. And that means that the next generation of energy professionals, so engineers, policy experts, customer focused, people, finance and so on and so on, they might spend their entire careers working on this. So I thought it would be interesting to check in with someone who's just about to enter the workforce to find out how we're preparing that next generation to dive head first into this challenge and hopefully bring innovative and exciting solutions to the table. This is a career and society defining challenge. This is something that we'll be focusing on for many, many years to come. So I really wanted to understand what is that next generation learning. Now I'm sure you'd all agree that what you learn in your formal schooling is only one small part of the knowledge base and skill set that is important for contributing in a meaningful way. I know that the things I became really excited about and passionate about as I was getting through my engineering degree really helped set my course and have led me to where I am today, and definitely was not the course I thought I was on when I started engineering school. And for the record, these things that I became really passionate exciting about weren't, you know, the fluid dynamics and soil mechanics and thermodynamics and all these courses I was taking. It was the concepts and the way of thinking and the things I became passionate about. So all that being said, I'm pretty excited today to talk to my guests about what he has been learning and how he thinks that's setting him up for a career focused on energy. Kieran Graham is in his final year of his degree at Carleton University here in Ottawa, and he's in the sustainable and renewable energy engineering program. I love the fact that we have a whole focus program on clean and renewable energy, that's fantastic. Kieran is the president of the Sustainable and Renewable Engineering Society, and he helps organize academic social and networking events for students in that program and others that are interested in sustainable and renewable energy. He has worked with the apex lab at Carleton, doing research on various carbon capture technologies, and he was also the organizer, or one of the organizers, for the 2026 Ontario Engineering Competition. Kieran Graham, welcome to the show.   Kieran Graham  02:48 Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited.   Trevor Freeman  02:50 So Kieran, let's start with a little bit of background on your program at University. So you're in the Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering program at Carleton University. Tell us a little bit about what that program is and what you focus on.   Kieran Graham  03:03 Yeah, so I will admit it's a little confusing at first, like Sustainable and Renewable Energy Engineering, the long name, and then we have two streams. So one's called Smart Technologies for Power Generation Distribution, the other one's about efficient energy conversion. So the easiest way to actually differentiate these two is electrical and mechanical. So smart technologies is electrical efficient conversion is a more mechanical. So like, if you have know anything about engineering disciplines, it's electrical and mechanical.   Trevor Freeman  03:35 Gotcha   Kieran Graham  03:36 Also, by the way, SREE is short form for sustainable renewable energy engineering, just to save us some fumbling over our words, in the future, perfect.   Trevor Freeman  03:45 This is a very acronym heavy podcast at time, so I appreciate you spelling that out for us. So when we when we hear SREE, you're talking about the program, gotcha. So give us an idea of, like, what's the focus of the program more broadly?   Kieran Graham  03:58 Yeah, so like, I'm in the electrical stream. So I take a lot of different courses at the beginning, ranging from fluid mechanics, and we take electrical courses like circuits and signals and just Electronics One. But then we also later take courses that are more SREE specific, that are more focused on learning how we are using thermodynamics to then put it through as a turbine and then create that energy. And then, how is it work, specifically with a nuclear power plant, or we even learn a little bit about natural gas, but just for context. And then, how does that differ from generating electricity with wind in a wind turbine. It's pretty similar, but like, how where's the difference? And like, how do we apply that in different scenarios?   Trevor Freeman  04:48 Got you so if I could say that back to you. You know, when I was in energy or engineering school, I learned a lot about those fundamentals. I learned, we know, we did thermodynamics, we did all that kind. Of stuff we just mentioned, but the application to power generation, and the renewable aspect of it, the sustainability side, that was all stuff I learned later in my career. You're building that into your programs. Kind of built that into what you're learning. So you're learning the more traditional engineering side of things, the thermodynamics and how this stuff works, but in the context of power generation, I assume, you know, like application of power generation, like how the grid works, things like that.   Kieran Graham  05:28 Yeah, exactly. So we take a little bits of courses that other programs will take, and then I got, first we're taking those same courses, and then we take other courses that are really specific, and we apply them to sustainable and renewable energy engineering. The other thing is, later in our degree, we also apply things on a more higher level, like energy is kind of like a high level topic. There's so many things that are happening and there's a lot of regulatory and economic aspects to it. So we have to look at, like, the energy market and like, yes, like nuclear fusion is like a great option if it works and if it's economically viable. And you know, nuclear has its own regulatory aspect, so we have that coverage of information and knowledge later in the years.   Trevor Freeman  06:17 Gotcha so. And for our listeners out there who are not kind of engineering nerds like Kieran and I. One of the things how I describe engineering more broadly is that it's sort of a systems thinking approach to things. So understanding, what are my inputs? What's the result of those inputs? What does that mean for the output? What are the feedback loops? And so what I'm hearing you say, Kieran, is that it's bringing that into the energy sector, the energy industry, which is fantastic, like, really exciting to hear that this is, this is what you're learning, and this is what the next sort of generation of engineers is being taught right now. How did you end up in this program? What drew you to this particular field of engineering?   Kieran Graham  07:01 Yeah, so it's a little complicated, because when I applied to university, I knew I wanted to stay in Ottawa, and my parents both went to Carleton. My grandpa worked at Carleton like when it was first established, so I had deep roots there. And in my mind, Carleton is a superior University in Ottawa. I know that's controversial, but, you know, it's okay. But anyways, I applied to three different engineerings at Carleton, and my first choice was actually aerospace engineering, because in high school, it was kind of like a this was the prestige of making aerospace engineering. And I actually got in and my first year I was in aerospace engineering, but at Carleton, first year, engineering is all general. So after first year, I decided that my goals, and I don't want to talk down to my aerospace colleagues, but my morals and my aspirations were more set towards a sustainable and renewable energy engineering focus. So sustainable renewable energy engineering was my second choice going into Carleton, so it's a pretty easy switch in second year, but from my childhood, I had an aunt who worked for Greenpeace Canada and also just learning about sustainability in my house and at school, this just seemed like a natural, good choice.   Trevor Freeman  08:28 My journey, and we won't get into the details of my journey, but it echoes that a lot of kind of having an idea going into engineering school and at some point, realizing that maybe this doesn't line up with my values, or what I want to do, the impact that I want to have. And that kind of gets into my next question of, you know, generally, the engineering profession is built around having an impact, a positive impact on society, on people, and using a, like I said, systems thinking approach to that. That's sort of the bar that we try and live up to. So, you know, you talked about wanting to have an impact. What does that impact me? Or what is having a positive impact mean for you, and how do you see yourself contributing as you're nearing the end of your education, at least formal education side of your undergrad?   Kieran Graham  09:14 Yeah, so I actually just took my engineering professional practices course, which I learned about the code of ethics and how the engineers duty is paramount to serving the public. And I think that actually really resonated with me as much as you know, the course is a lot of just talking about regulatory stuff, it actually was refreshing and good to hear that that's like the regulatory view on what engineering should be, because my personal goals are very much to have a positive and strong impact on society, and specifically like my local community. You know, my family's deeply rooted in Ottawa, so I want to have a good, positive impact. Impact on Ottawa. So I guess when I switched from aerospace to sustainable energy, I decided that, like, there's a climate crisis right now, and I just saw the opportunity to create a large positive impact within engineering, which I was really enjoying and helped solve those problems of having that net zero or clean energy solution, which was being so, like, stressed upon within, like, my whole life,   Trevor Freeman  10:31 That's great, yeah. I mean, it's, it's definitely, in my opinion, and I think this has been echoed a lot on this podcast, is, you know, the energy transition, the climate crisis, and sort of our reaction to that is definitely, the defining challenge of our of our time right now, and certainly, certainly your career, probably moving forward in this field. So looking at the energy transition, what skills or knowledge do you think you've developed throughout the last couple of years in your undergrad that have prepared you to contribute to this. You know, rapidly changing industry that the electricity sector, the energy sector of today is not the same as it was five years ago, and it won't be the same in five years. So coming into it at this point, what do you think you're bringing to the table that's going to help contribute to that?   Kieran Graham  11:23 Yeah. So, I mean, it's the whole point of the program. And you know, people running, I'll shout out Ahmed Abdullah, a professor who's really been heading the SREE  program. And so the, really, the big goal of SREE is like to be multidisciplinary, and being able to approach all the different aspects of this climate crisis and energy transition. You need to be able to understand how, like, I said, like the mechanical thermodynamics and fluid dynamics work, but also understand how a electric generator works, and then how transmission works, and need to understand, like, what's the point of creating solar in the desert, if you have to then transfer it all the way to, I don't know, somewhere in Europe, or something like, those are the large scale aspects that you need to be able to understand. The other thing that's also really important is just having the knowledge of understanding how like load profiles work and how data analysis and understanding like this is what a good load profile looks like. This is a problem like the duck curve or problems like this, like that, we as three engineers really understand, like how these different problems are created, and then how we can fix them and where they're being affected, like the duck curve in California, and like in Canada, we have a winter peaking system. Like all these problems are different, different aspects that we are very knowledgeable on and already have a base understanding of. And I think that's what's really important and helpful going into this industry.   Trevor Freeman  13:04 Yeah, that's great. Has there been a time during your program, during your undergrad, or a project that you've worked on that has really kind of changed the way you view energy or the electricity grid, or open your eyes to something that you weren't aware of before, really kind of, yeah, drove your passion for it?   Kieran Graham  13:27 Yeah, so, you know, there's been many problems and projects that I've had throughout my degree, and you know, the view and impact on my motivation has been very hopeful and very doubtful in equal amounts. But I would say maybe more helpful hopeful in the in the future, just because sometimes in school, things get a little stressful and blow up in proportion. But I'd say my biggest hopeful, I guess, and changing my my view of things would be my capstone project. So the capstone project that I'm working on currently is focusing on a net zero 2050 Ottawa. And how are we going to prepare for that? How are we going to handle the generation for that? How are we going to get energy places? How are we going to handle the winter peaks of electrifying, heating. How are we going to deal with EVs? It's a never ending puzzle slash scavenger hunt of finding data and how do things work together? How do we piece it together? Yeah, it's been a great challenge, but also really opened my eyes up to how all these, these different sectors that I've been learning about in my degree, how do these all work fit together and solve a problem.   Trevor Freeman  14:52 Great, yeah, and that's exactly where I want to go next. So, so I'm glad you brought up your capstone project. Just a quick backgrounder for our listeners. A part of an engineering undergrad in Ontario, at least, I think across Canada, is a final year project which is known as the capstone project. So the idea of the capstone project is it's supposed to be a culmination of all the different sort of theoretical things you've learned in your degree, bringing all that knowledge together and giving the students a chance to apply that in some real world scenarios. So, you know, it's interesting, Kieran, to know that your capstone was looking at what does a net zero 2050 reality look like for the City of Ottawa? Because the City of Ottawa has a 2050 Net Zero target, 2040 actually, for the corporation of the City of Ottawa, and 2050 for the community. And there's, there's lots of moving parts to that. It's a real world thing that's happening that a lot of folks are working on. So I'd like to dig into that a little bit more with you and find out. And I know you're not quite finished it yet, so you're not going to have all the answers, but you know what? What are some of the things that you're looking at? What are some of the must do's for us as society and us as a city and all the stakeholders involved if we're going to to achieve that net zero reality?   Speaker 1  16:17 Yeah, so we are a group of, I think, 18 or 19 different undergraduates for all, hopefully graduating at the end of the semester. And so this project is happens every year for the past, like four or five years, I think, and we're the third year focusing on Ottawa. So there's been a lot of things covered. And honestly, at the beginning of the project, we were like, how could we possibly have a third year of material to study? And I think now that we're approaching the final we're realizing how much there is to look at, and maybe we'll have some notes for next year saying, like, there really is a million things that we could look at in this scope. Like, it's just a really big scope, but we have, like, a buildings team, an energy storage team, a nuclear team, a solar team, and a transportation team, and I'm on the integration team, so my job is really just trying to put things together from all the different sub teams who are focusing on very specific things, and Specifically I'm the integration team lead. So I'm focusing on load prediction. So like, in 2050 what's the load that we're going to need to have? And that really, including working with transportation and buildings and understanding how, like, the EVS and the heat pumps and electrified heating are we going to have district heating, like, how is all this going to affect our 2050 load.   Trevor Freeman  17:46 And so what are some of those strategies? Like, the things you mentioned are bang on. That's of course, the things that are going to drive our demand. Are you looking at providing that additional capacity? You know, with local generation, what's the what's the strategy there? How do we have enough energy and have enough clean energy in order to meet that growing demand that you've identified?   Kieran Graham  18:10 Yeah, so that's like the big problem, right? So I'm doing load prediction, and then we have teams like nuclear and solar. And past years we've had wind teams, and I think there was a biofuels team as well past years, and we put all this data, kind of on two sides, and then we feed it through an optimization software that someone is working on in my team, and it's going to look at economically, how competitive something like solar or nuclear or wind or hydro, I guess would be looking within Ottawa like, how do all these compare? And it's all really about economics. When you're looking at it like, which is feasible because there's lots of cool technologies, like I mentioned earlier, but it's optimizing for cost, and then we're finding a low profile, and then ultimately, we want to run it through a software called eTap, which basically is like a digital twin for looking at energy load flow analysis and making sure the grid can actually handle this 2050 load.   Trevor Freeman  19:16 And so you've identified kind of the technology challenges and solutions. I'm glad to hear you talk about like, you know, the economics have to make sense. Of course, there are technologies out there that, yeah, if there was unlimited resources, it would solve our problems. What about the sort of, I guess there's sort of two streams here. There's the regulatory, or let's call it the political side, the enabling aspects of, how do we get this technology that makes sense and has a business case? How do we get that deployed, more deployed faster, you know, more broadly, how do we do that? Did you look at the sort of regulatory, political side of things?   Kieran Graham  19:56 Yeah, so in our capstone, we don't necessarily look. At it super specifically, like we're not necessarily looking at how regulations would affect it, but it's more we're going to be looking at scenarios of, if we have 100 per cent EV adoption in 2050 what is the load going to look like? But you know, the changing of the federal EV mandate, how is that going to look at change the load projection, and then, how is that going to affect our generation? Like, what do we like if we have huge peaks our nuclear teams generation, which won't necessarily be able to ramp as fast as something like a battery storage or or like a hydro dam, or something like these. These are the complications that we're looking at, not necessarily super focused on regulation, but keeping it as like a guiding prospect of, should we be considering 100 per cent EVs, like, is that really a realistic goal for 2015 at this point?   Trevor Freeman  20:59 Yeah. And I guess it's kind of the same thing. And so maybe the answer is similar, but it's this the societal side of things too. And so yeah, like, from a technology perspective, it would be great if we hit that 100 per cent EV coverage by 2050, if not sooner. We know that that's a big source of emissions. It'd be great if we could do sort of like mass heat pump deployment. But at the end of the day, people, you know, we're relying on individuals within our society to make those decisions, and so one aspect of this is, how do we help that be the right decision? And how do we help people want to do this? Because it is the smarter choices. Has that conversation come into the project, and it's okay if it hasn't, I know there's obviously a limited scope of the project. Scope of the project, but is that something that you guys are talking through?   Kieran Graham  21:52 Yeah, I think that's something that we are always like talking about as, like a bunch of young engineers who are really looking to understand the industry. And, you know, making sure these things actually happen is always kind of on our mind, like, what's the point of us doing all this work? And, you know, stressing ourselves till two and two in the morning getting our work done or getting ready for a presentation. It's like, why are we doing all of this? I think you know, the aspect of community involvement and the regulatory and making it make sense is part of our job. Like, yes, that maybe our focus isn't necessarily on making it all make sense for the public, but it's, it's something that we have to consider. Like, if it's not economically and like socially viable, then isn't there's no there's no point. Like, it's just not, not a proper engineering solution. So I think ultimately, it's not something that we're focusing on, but something that we talk about all the time, that like, like we go to community events and kind of learn about what people's like outlooks are on, on all these different problems. And would people be okay with having battery systems and solar systems on their house, and would they be okay with using those, as you know, distributed energy resources that can feed back to the grid? Would people be okay with bi directional charging on their EVs like these are big batteries that could be used for different things. Like these aren't necessarily direct considerations of our capstone, but something that we keep in mind when we're trying to create a solution.   Trevor Freeman  23:26 Yeah, great. And I'm glad to hear you say that, and I'm glad it's part of the conversation. It's certainly, it's certainly a huge aspect of how we actually deploy these strategies and solutions and how we develop them. It's a big part of you know what I get to do at Hydro Ottawa, being on the customer side of things, is listening to our customers and understanding what their realities are, and trying to find ways of okay, well, how does that match up with programs or opportunities that we have to be able to run. So really glad to hear that you're talking through that the challenge of decarbonizing our energy mix. So going from sort of like fossil fuel combustion energy generation to a cleaner solution is really only one challenge that's facing the energy sector. I'm sure you're aware, you've brought up things that are causing an increase in demand, but we're also seeing, you know, non-climate related drivers of increased energy demand. So I'm thinking about, like, AI proliferation and data center growth and all these things. Is that part of the calculus that goes into your project. Are you thinking of, how do we also meet this growing energy demand for non-climate related reasons?   Kieran Graham  24:48 Yeah. I mean, you know, understanding the energy mix, and you know, the load for the future is really difficult, and I know that's my whole job, but you know, if I had an A plus answer, I. Wouldn't have to worry about capstone for the next couple of months. But you know, all these considerations I'm thinking about, so like when I'm getting buildings data from the commercial sector and the residential sector, industry is not very big in Ottawa as an electrical load, at least, but I need to look at that for load prediction, because maybe industry load is going to increase with data center, like, where does that fall under the data the energy split, I know like Kanata Tech Center, like, that's going to be growing, and that's a big energy load, and I know it's a big stress on distribution systems, and the feeders over there struggling, and I know Hydro Ottawa is planning to upgrade those locations. But how can we maybe predict that, like data center or data center like load in Canada, that? How can we deal with that in different way, like adding a battery system over there, or maybe generation closer to there, which just stress the overall grid less.   Trevor Freeman  26:05 Yeah, I think it's in, you know, for our non-Ottawa listeners, Kanata is a part of the city that has a high concentration of, sort of the high tech sector. It's, it's certainly a growing area in Ottawa, and one of our constrained areas on the grid that we're investing in and bringing a lot additional capacity to in the coming years. So those challenges that you identified, how do we deal with, not only this energy transition from a clean technology perspective, but also a changing economic demographics like we're seeing more investment in these areas, and how do we make sure that we're keeping up. So yeah, that's definitely, definitely a part of it. So one of the goals of the podcast is definitely to make sure the message is clear that the energy transition is not something of the future. It's not something that will happen eventually. We're in it right now. We're seeing the change to our to the way we use energy, and the way we produce energy and move and store and all those things. So is there something that's happening now, you know, within the energy space that you're particularly excited about that you've, you've kind of learned about in the last little while that you want to get involved in when you when you graduate?   Kieran Graham  27:16 Yeah, so my whole degree is about this. So there's so many different aspects that I could talk about in that I'm interested in. And specifically to my capstone, machine learning is a big field in pretty much anything like machine learning and AI will be involved in any sort of capacity, in any industry. I'm sure. The problem with my specific application is I'm trying to predict 2050, load, and our load for the past few years hasn't really been increasing. Due to efficiency, and there was covid and different aspects like that. And so how do we apply that, and what, what kind of way is really interesting. But another thing that I'm really interested in is virtual power plants and stuff like micro grids. And how does all these, these little DERs and non-wire solutions, how do all these these work together? And how can we, like as a community, work with our So, like solar on our houses, or battery systems in our houses, our EVs, our bidirectional charging, as I mentioned earlier, like how, how could these technologies work together to really reduce the stress on the distribution system for you guys at Hydro Ottawa? And how could everything work together? And you see it happening in California. It's like being tested. If I think Ottawa would just be a great place for this, because of the nature of everyone having cars and everything's everyone has big, pretty big houses. We can have solar on our roofs, like, yes, we have a winter but which has less sunlight, but solar is still incredibly viable and useful. So how can all of this work together and become a virtual power plant that one house has energy and you know, the generations not able to keep up, or the distribution system is failing for whatever reason, you can rely on a community which has battery systems or generation systems just locally. How can we use that to then power each other's houses? I think that's really cool, a future thing that really looking forward to.   Trevor Freeman  29:26 Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that gets talked a lot about, and, you know, in the industry in general, but even, you know, at Hydro Ottawa, looking at, how do we leverage, you know, this is what you're talking about. How do we leverage customer owned devices, customer equipment, to help manage grid capacity needs. So if we're in a time of increased demand on the grid, how do we make calls out to people that have batteries, people that have EVs, that are plugged in, people that have smart devices in their home, and say, Hey, we need a little bit of capacity. We're going to ask you to draw from your battery instead of the grid, or we're going to ask you to pause your EV charging, or turn your thermostat down a degree in order to generate that capacity on the grid. And it's, it's not even so much, you know, it's, it's not that the grid is failing and able to keep up. It's otherwise we would have to build a much bigger grid. We'd have to invest more in the grid. This lets us be more efficient with how we invest in the grid and how we build out so we can sort of not over build, which traditionally what we do is we kind of build the worst case scenario. What? What would we do if that worst case scenario wasn't as bad, if we could pull on these, these other customer owned equipment? So yeah, very cool concept, and definitely something that we're looking at here at Hydro Ottawa, and have a couple pilots coming up on that.   Kieran Graham  30:53 Yeah. And I just wanted to say, like earlier, you're mentioning, like, how do we work on, how do we solve these solutions of net zero within a community, I just think, like the adoption and community incentives and how do we work together? Like, these are the solutions. These are, these are the things that if we as a community decide to do, it's just a very viable thing. It's just we need to be able to work together as a community to be able to do it.   Trevor Freeman  31:22 Yeah, so, you know, we've been talking a little bit about a different approach to energy and that community approach. I really like that based on on what you know from your studies and your experience in this area. What do you think the utility of the future looks like, like? What does that look like to you? What is the role of the utility moving forward?   Kieran Graham  31:47 Yeah, so it's a hard question, because obviously, there's so many things that could happen. And you know, like I was saying, predicting the future is very hard, and I can't just, can't just use machine learning. It's not a pattern. It's not like something that's going to be super predictable. But I do think like the idea of micro grids and working together and distributed energy resources, like all these things are going to be needed to be able to work together. So there's going to be so many little systems and organization, and the utility was going to be the person, kind of, like a mini IESO, I guess, like, how, like, you're going to be controlling, or not necessarily controlling, but organizing. Who's going to be using their DERs, like, which areas are going to need more solar deployment? Where can we integrate vehicle to grid charging? Where can we add more charging infrastructure for communities? Where can we put, like, community batteries, like, more of like an organizer of even smaller systems within the community. I think that's just the nature of technology is going to be, come more complicated, but we're also going to become more proficient and be able to organize those things. So, yeah, I guess that's, that's what I view the future of utilities.   Trevor Freeman  33:17 Yeah, it's, it's a little bit, you know, lots of, lots of, lots of concepts. There it's, it's getting a little bit closer to the end user when it when we look at, how do we operate the grid? So right now, you brought up the IESO, that's our Independent Electricity System Operator who operates on the provincial level. I think the future is that that that level of operation gets a little bit closer to the end user, and that the local distribution companies like Hydro Ottawa have more control to identify where does the grid need extra capacity? Where does it have capacity that we can shift? And that's all happening at the same time as technology is giving us more insight into that. We're having we're going to have more understanding of what's happening down at that granular level. So we're going to be able to make these calls a little bit better. So, yeah, I think, I think you're on the right track. I think that's, that's where we're going. We're going to more of a bidirectional flow of energy, a little bit more closer to the end user control over how the grid is operated.   Kieran Graham  34:20 Yeah, and in our classes, we learn about, like in Europe, how they have bidirectional charging and generation. In like Germany, people have solar panels on their balconies everywhere, and it the solar penetration like Germany, a lot of parts of Germany are on the same latitude as us. So it's like, it's not infeasible for like Ottawa, to have solar everywhere and have that be part of the grid, and not just for your own benefit or anything like that. Like, it's a, it's a real possibility.   Trevor Freeman  34:51 Yeah, yeah. I think there's, there's lots of things that we can do to really improve, to really leverage the devices that are out there, to leverage. Opportunities that we have in front of us. So, Kieran, as we kind of get close to the end of our conversation here, are there any words of wisdom that you'd like to share? You know, you're kind of at the end of the beginning of your career journey. Here, you're almost done your undergrad, about to take whatever next steps there are, that's, you know, starting your career or further education. What about you know someone who's maybe at the start of that part of their journey? You know someone that's thinking about wanting to get involved in the energy transition, maybe wanting a career in that space. What words of wisdom would you provide?   Kieran Graham  35:35 Yeah, so I mean, there's plenty of things I would recommend, you know, for young students, and for people similar approaching my situation, I think the biggest thing is just like networking and creating communities. Like, if you're a new student going into school, like, be part of socials. Be part of engineering societies, and or not engineering societies even like you can just any sort of club or sports team, or just have a community of people that you can really rely on to, like, if you're struggling with an assignment or a topic or a certain class, just like, have someone to be able to talk to talk through like that topic, and ultimately, like those connections who are helping you out with things Like, it'll go back, and they'll be like, Hey, do you understand this? You can get help them. And then you have a friendship, you have a connection, you have someone who's maybe going to work in a field that, like, in the future, you'll be able to leverage to get a job. Like, I have people who, you know, I helped in, or probably they helped me more because they were in older years, and they are working at different industries, and I can now talk to them and be like, hey, like, how do you like your new job now that you're in the workforce, and do you have any opportunities that I can, I could look into working for? So really creating that network of people who can help you out with those things, like you don't have to do it alone, and it really just opens your eyes and allows you to have really good conversations and prepare you for the future.   Trevor Freeman  37:08 Yeah, so if I could, if I could just build on that, it's the importance of creating those connections in that community is great for your own learning, your own knowledge, but also for solving problems, like, no problem is solved by a single discipline or a single focus. You know, it's great that you're learning all these tools in your engineering degree, but you know, real problems get solved by a mix of, you know, the engineer folks, the finance folks, the customer side of things, the, you know, societal side of things. So really great advice. Thanks for sharing that with us. So Kieran, we always end our interviews with a series of questions that I ask to all our guests, so I'll dive right into those. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?   Kieran Graham  37:56 Yeah, so a lot of my reading has been textbooks recently, but I think when I have the time I read a lot of dystopian, so I'll say Fahrenheit 451, even though it's a pretty common one, but it's just really good and really relevant to things.   Trevor Freeman  38:10 So yeah, definitely one of those classics that's important for everyone to read or at least be aware of. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's one that you would recommend everybody?   Kieran Graham  38:21 Yeah, there's plenty of good shows those are a little bit easier to find some time and brain power for, but big Star Wars fan, so I'm going to say Andor, just a really good show, really relevant, really love that show.   Trevor Freeman  38:34 Yeah, fantastic. I agree. And I just so my oldest kid is 12, and I've just got him starting to watch that one. So it's a great. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Kieran Graham  38:49 Yeah, another really hard question. I'm going to Peru right after I graduate. So if you guys wanted to pay for that, that would be great.   Trevor Freeman  38:56 It's not an offer. Just to be clear.   Kieran Graham  38:58 No, I know. I would just say, like, maybe I really have been seeing these videos about Kyrgyzstan, like the those, like East Asian or, guess, Western Asia countries like Kyrgyzstan would be really cool.   Trevor Freeman  39:17  Cool. Yeah, very neat. Who's someone that you admire?   Kieran Graham  39:20 Yeah, so I admire plenty of people. I think I'm going to say my grandpa, though. I've always looked up to him and like how he lives his life, and, you know, he's funny, and just like, has really good values. And I think he's just someone who I ultimately, as a person, look up to. And you know, he worked at Carlton, so I don't know it's just like, the future of like, where I would like to see myself.   Trevor Freeman  39:48 Great. Yeah, great answer. And finally, what's something that you're really excited about when it comes to the energy sector, its future, and you have the benefit of being at the very beginning of your career, you get to get involved in this. So what's something you're excited about?   Kieran Graham  39:59 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I said earlier, like, there's plenty of things, but I'll say virtual power plants again. Like, if we could create a community where we have DERs and are working together micro grids and all of this, like, that would be so amazing. It'd be so cool. So I think that's going to be, that's my thing. I'm super excited for.   Trevor Freeman  40:21 Very cool well, I'm very excited to see you get involved in that, and thanks for your time today. Kieran, it's great to chat with you. It's great to get some insight into kind of what the next generation of engineers are learning and really looking forward to, kind of seeing where you land in short order here and what your career starts to look like. So thanks very much.   Kieran Graham  40:41 Awesome. Thank you very much.   Trevor Freeman  40:43 Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].

Trees are a major cause of power outages. They're also a wildfire risk—when branches hit a conductor, a small spark can become a big blaze. Lynn Petesch of Overstory joins thinkenergy to talk trees, exploring how AI, satellite imagery, and vegetation intelligence help utilities prevent outages and reduce wildfire threats. Including Hydro Ottawa, who saw a 44% drop in tree-related outages since partnering with Overstory. Listen in for how we work together to keep the grid safe in an era of extreme weather.   Related links  Overstory: https://www.overstory.com/ Lynn Petesch on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynnpetesch/  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114  Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en    To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod ----- Transcript: Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected], Hi everyone. Welcome back. Today on thinkenergy, we're going to be talking about trees. Yes, you heard that correctly. Trees. I know this is a show about energy, but there's actually a very real connection between our electricity grid and those slow growing, majestic givers of shade, lumber, fruit and so many more benefits. Honestly, who doesn't love trees? But I'm not just kicking this episode off in my capacity as a tree hugger. Let's take a look at this through a utility lens, and I will use Hydro Ottawa as an example. Hydro Ottawa service territory includes some very rural and very forested areas. Even our urban territory has a fairly extensive tree canopy. As a result, Hydro Ottawa trims about 60,000 trees each year. Why? Because trees contracting power infrastructure is a big problem. Tree interference remains a leading cause of power outages for us. Strong winds force them onto our wires. Heavy snow or freezing rain builds up and weighs down branches, breaks limbs, and increases the risk that part of a tree may touch a line, and in some extreme cases, heavy storms can even send trees or branches crashing into our poles, damaging the poles. The struggle between power lines and trees, which, again, don't get me wrong, we all love trees, has been going on for years. There is a constant struggle between trimming enough and getting the right trees trimmed and maintaining as much tree coverage as we can. In 2022 we identified a disruptor in this dance, the solution came through a partnership with Overstory, a company that uses satellite imagery, infrared technology and artificial intelligence to help utilities manage vegetation and trim trees more efficiently. And the timing could not have been better. Just days after we started working with Overstory in the spring of 2022 the derecho hit Ottawa. Our Ottawa based listeners will remember this storm well. It was monumental in the history of our city, and indeed for us as utility, winds reached 190 kilometers an hour. For our non-metric listeners, that's nearly 120 miles per hour. The storm ripped through poles houses and cause considerable damage to our city's urban forests. Overstory played a crucial role during the cleanup and in helping us level up our vegetation management strategies moving forward, we realized that the insights we got from Overstory would help improve our proactive approach to tree encroachment and hazard identification, and this is essential in this era of extreme weather events. We know that climate change is causing more frequent and more extreme weather events. According to Climate Central, the number of weather related power outages in the United States increased by 78% between 2011 and 2021 and severe weather accounted for over 1000 outages across Nova Scotia just in the year of 2024 we want to keep you connected during these heavy storms, and that's why we're looking to organizations like Overstory. So what does Overstory do to help us keep the lights on? Well, without giving away too much, because we're going to get into the details shortly, Overstory through a detailed analysis of the scans they do of our entire grid, identifies high risk areas, which we can then prioritize and better focus our resources when it comes to vegetation management, this level of monitoring and focus reduces the risk of trees from coming into contact with our poles and disrupting Your connection to the grid, the results speak for themselves. Since partnering with Overstory, we've reduced vegetation related outages by 44% and that's only part of the story, as we'll discuss further, Overstory also plays a crucial role in helping utilities prevent wildfires in high risk areas across North America, similar to extreme weather, wildfire frequency and intensity is also increasing, in part due to climate change expanding cities and many other factors. And when wildfires do happen, these stories are heartbreaking. What many people don't realize is that lots of wildfires are sparked by trees making contact with power lines, and that is why Overstory plays a key role in tagging areas where those fires are most likely to ignite and spread, making it easier for utilities to prioritize trimming work and vegetation management in those areas. To dive more into how Overstory is helping us here at Hydro Ottawa and. And other utilities helping us identify and act to mitigate risk associated with vegetation. I'm really excited to have Lynn Petesch on the show today. Lynn is Overstory's, Head of Customer Success, and has spent the past 10 years building customer facing teams with a specific focus on technologies that tackle the climate crisis. She began her career working for the United Nations and the diplomatic service of her home country, Luxembourg, before moving into the tech sector to really work in environments where she could drive impact more quickly and at greater scale. Lynn Petesch, welcome to the show.   Lynn Petesch  05:34 Thank you. Thanks for having me.   Trevor Freeman  05:36 Okay, so let's start at the very top with a high level look at what Overstory does and how the organization came to be.   Lynn Petesch  05:45 Yeah, let me tell you about Overstory. I mean, we are a vegetation intelligence platform. We use remote sensing and AI to give electric utilities, including Hydro Ottawa and others, a clear, system wide view of their risk. They always do it because they want to address three things, or sometimes more, but kind of, there's always a few goal posts, and it's either improving reliability, reducing wildfire risk, if that is if they're in an area where there is a concern, and or improving operational efficiencies. So Overstory very much becomes a decision-making tool for their programs were used mostly by the vegetation management people, operations people, wildfire mitigation teams, and they each time they want to either use a program that exists, prioritize it, reshape their work. They might be preparing for storm. They might be working on a wildfire mitigation risk so the company, more broadly, was founded in 2018 by Anniek Schouten and Indra den Bakker. This was back in the Netherlands, and they were leveraging, or getting really interested in satellite imagery, and were very initially using it for deforestation purposes. So, the climate resilience DNA has always been with us. But like any startup, we were looking at that kind of target audience that was most interested in what we had to offer. And pretty quickly, we landed on the electric utilities. They had the most pressing need to use remote sensing at scale to solve very big problems, honestly. And so we pivoted into that space of electric utilities, and then in 2020 Fiona Spruill, who's our CEO right now, she joined us. She shaped the company into what it is today, and that is really around building safer and more reliable operations.   Trevor Freeman  07:33 That's great, and I want to dive into some of the details. Our listeners will know that we talk a lot about grid modernization here and talk a lot about better intelligence of what's happening on the grid in all aspects, and something we haven't really talked about, and I'm excited to talk to you about today is the sort of vegetation management side of it. So really excited to get into the details. But before we do that, I'm always really curious to understand, you know, the people behind the conversations. How did you get into this area of, you know, high tech vegetation management? I touched a little bit on your bio in the intro, but give us a sense of, you know, how did Lynn come to be in the space that you're in right now?   Lynn Petesch  08:12 Yeah, I wouldn't say I grew up thinking I was going to work in this space, but I love working in it now. So actually, right out of college, I went to work for the United Nations, but then in the last 15 years, I started working at high growth tech companies, startups, and I've always been focused on leading and building CS operations, which is basically the customer success teams. They're the ones that are in front of the customers, implementing these software programs, kind of working very closely with customer solving problems. And about four years ago, I decided that I did want to focus the rest of my career on solving the climate crisis more broadly. And I remember very clearly that I came across Overstory. And there was two things that really resonated with me. One was hearing that utility caused wildfires could be as thing of the past, like they are preventable. And the other thing was learning about this world where vegetation is the biggest cause of outages, which is, you know, I did not know before. And so I think, you know, having these very clear goals is very compelling to kind of work on something where it's so easy to understand what the big problems are. So I joined Overstory, and for the last couple of years, I've been building a team that gets really deeply embedded in these utilities, specifically with the vegetation management and the WiFi mitigation teams. And we work on their programs. We understand their programs, we help them reshape their programs. We roll out, obviously, the software element that is Overstory. It's been very fun and rewarding work   Trevor Freeman  09:40 That's great. And I really love, you know, talking to people from a variety of areas that they touch on climate change and the climate crisis. And I think there's a bunch of us who share that passion of wanting to do something. I spoke with a group of you know, recent grads about what is a green. In career. What is it? What does a career in climate change look like? And really it looks like whatever you want it to look like. There are so many aspects that touch on this. So kind of neat to hear how that was your passion, and then you figured out where it made sense for you to enter into the climate sphere. So that's great.   Lynn Petesch  10:15 Yeah, I guess when I was young, I thought you had to be a scientist to work on time, yeah. And I think now anyone can find an angle on how to contribute to it. And I think it needs everyone to help contribute.   Trevor Freeman  10:24 Yeah, any job can be a green job if you care about it and if you make it that okay. So let's get back to Overstory. Tell us a little bit about the evolution of the company. You talked about it kind of founding about seven years ago. Tell us how it's evolved and progressed over those seven years.   Lynn Petesch  10:41 Yeah, so when we started working with utilities, I think at that point, everyone was kind of assessing whether satellites could be kind of good use case for analyzing vegetation. We're now talking about 30 centimeter imagery. So the resolution of satellites has become incredible. You can really see branches. You can detect species of trees. You can see if they're healthy or not. So initially, that was kind of our m-o we really were the leading provider to find out, where are the trees, how close are they, in terms of proximity to your network, so to the conductor, which is the risk. You know, we're looking at the terrain. If you're looking in the mountains and in Colorado, you have very different terrain than maybe in Ottawa. So detecting tree species has been really interesting, detecting the health of trees, how that decline is furthering. A lot of utilities are experiencing a lot of tree decline die off right now. So that was how we started. And then we started working with the really big utilities. And you had to think about this problem at scale. Now, we might be scanning with satellites, hundreds, 10s of 1000s of miles at a time, and some of these utilities, they might have 1000s, if not 10s of 1000s, of trees that could pose a risk to their network. They might have had a really big, large weather event, a storm that knocked over some of their system. So at that point, it all becomes about that decisioning tool. Everything starts becoming a prioritization, and I think that's now where we're really leaning into is making not just surfacing the data, but making it very actionable. Utilities have a lot to deal with. They deal with very tight budgets, they deal with crew constraints. They might have an aging workforce, their regulatory pressure, they're really vulnerable to storms. Increasingly, there's a lot of wildfire exposure. So everything becomes a decision of, where should I focus my intention? Where can I get the biggest bang for my buck? What should I do? What should I not focus on? And that decisioning is where we really want to be a key player in.   Trevor Freeman  12:44 Absolutely. And looking forward, I know I'm kind of we're jumping the gun here. We haven't gotten into the details of what you do. But looking forward, what is your vision for, kind of the future of this space and how it's going to continue to evolve? Are you mature as a company yet, or as a sector, or is it still a lot of growth to happen?   Lynn Petesch  13:01 Yeah, I think vast majority utilities are now leveraging remote sensing. It could be lighter, it could be drones, it could be satellites. So that has become a pretty established tooling within the sector. I think what our vision really is, is providing utilities that shared resilience, first picture of risk. So you know, we imagine a world where you can, kind of like, see the emerging risks, and you can start becoming proactive. Being proactive in the space of vegetation management has been really challenging. You never know where the next tree is going to fall. And over the last couple of years, customers suddenly have access to this risk across their territory so that they can start being proactive about it. As a matter of fact, that was a key use case, also with the team at Hydro Ottawa, is to start launching these proactive programs. And I think when we think about it, we get very excited about the world in which anyone from the field crews to the vegetation managers to the operation folks to the execs, to the regulators, the community partners who think about the safety of their communities, the regulators all have that kind of shared view of risk. Just imagine, they all understand the same risk. They operate off the same sheet, and they make the same data driven decisions that could solve a lot of problems, because now the data is often scrambled across different people. Certain people have access to it and certain people don't.   Trevor Freeman  14:25 Great. Okay, so let's get into the specifics here. I want to actually talk about specifically what you what Overstory does. How do you find we've kind of talked about vegetation management, obviously, you're supportingHydro Ottawa and other utilities in our vegetation management programs. How do you find and tag high risk vegetation? What is high risk like? What do you actually do on a day to day basis?   Lynn Petesch  14:47 Yeah, that's the part that I deal with the most often. So excited to get into specifics. Implementing with Overstory is actually pretty easy. I mean, when we start working with a customer, we need to know where is your grid. So we need to understand where your power lines are. Planning. We need to understand the main configurations of them. How tall are the poles, etc, so we can really compute that whole focus of where the trees in relation to your power lines, to your conductors. That's all ultimately that we're focusing on. Increasingly, we're all seeing focusing on the ground. I'll be talking about that as well. We then task these satellites over your territory. We do that during the leaf on season, so that will be the summer, essentially. And then we run all these models. So we are first needing to understand, where are the trees, what is their height, what is their health? An unhealthy tree is much more likely to fall and cause damage to your power lines. We're looking at the fuels on the ground. We can help you determine what type of equipment you might need to attack certain types of vegetation. And we always compute it to that risk to the conductor. And we look at your right of ways. Now, I think the interesting part about your question is the what is high risk? And that is, can be very different across different utilities, and I think that's the maybe the unique part with Overstory is that we can configure it to your standards. So every utility has very unique components. If you're on the West Coast and you're concerned about wildfires, your tolerance to risk will be very different. And if you're on the East Coast, where you're mostly concerned about not causing too many outages, including that you might have specific trimming specifications. The crews running around with chainsaws, they know exactly how far out they need to trim, how much they can trim, and there's a bit of a risk tolerance thing. So we built very configurable risk frameworks for all of our utility partners, so high means one thing to hydro Ottawa means something different to a customer in California that is facing a very different type of risk.   Trevor Freeman  16:49 So you're out there assessing, essentially, just for the context of our listeners, you know, we've got power lines that run overhead. They run through residential neighborhoods, commercial areas, but also forested areas, treed areas where there's lots of vegetation near our equipment, your company really gets an understanding of the the interaction between the vegetation and our lines, and says, these ones are too close, or this is a tree that's, you know, not healthy, and could come in contact with your lines based on your analysis. So help us, like, let's paint that picture a little bit more detailed. How do utility companies take the information that you are coming up with, that your analysis is coming up with, and use that to run a vegetation management program more effectively? What does the utility do with that information?   Lynn Petesch  17:37 Yeah, so we always center it around four main use cases. One is optimizing a program that already exists. It's creating a targeted program for you. It's quantifying your work and risk reporting. And I'll dive into each and every one of them a little bit to illustrate a bit more what that could mean. So when we think about program optimization, a lot of utilities, they have existing vegetation management cycle. They might have a regulatory obligation to visit their territory every four years, for example. Now, a lot of times they've been doing their program the same way for the last 10 maybe 20 years, but the conditions in their territory are different, right? I mean, the things we're seeing, the storms are heavier. There's more tree decline that we're seeing right now. So they know they need to adapt and they need to adjust it. But it's big programs with lots of budgets attached to it, a lot of crews running around. So starting to think about how you can start pulling a socket that you're meant to trim forward, or starting to tackle an area where you say, is more residential, there's fewer trees, focusing on your high risk areas. First re managing these programs is one key component that we work with a lot of companies on. And thinking about Oklahoma, Gas and Electric, for example, that they have a budget, and they can only do that much with the budget, and it was really about reinventing where they can get the biggest impact. The other one, the second use case, is this targeted program creation, and I'll use the Hydro Ottawa use case for that. You know, they had suddenly a view about where are all of their hazard trees? Hazard trees are these trees that are declining, they're dying, or they're dead, and they could have an impact on your system. Now, suddenly you know where they are, so you can start building a targeted program about dedicating some time and budget and crews to actually going and addressing those trees that has a big impact on your reliability and on reducing tree cost outages. And there's many others, sort of like hotspotting, is a very common term about starting to become proactive and doing something for a specific program. And the third one is work quantification. And I think there, when you think about it again, there's large contractors that are running around, managing your territory. And now we utilities, for the first time, often have that data to actually assess how much work there is. So that's really helpful in terms of negotiating your contracts, getting better bids. Some utilities say it's really hard to find contractors that want to work on their system, because it's very hard to estimate how much work there is, or they might have a budget to mow certain vegetation along a transmission corridor. Just knowing how much vegetation there is is a really helpful tool to address it and prioritize it in the right way. And then the fourth use case is the risk reporting, and that is about getting that baseline view about your risk and tracking it year over year. And this is really where we want utilities to have that data to report it out to their boards, insurers, regulators, and often it's used to defend your budgets, secure your budgets, or really have some data to kind of back you up on what the problems are that you're facing.   Trevor Freeman  21:05 Great. So you talk about data, and you know, each of those use cases that you mentioned, or strategies that you mentioned really are about getting the right information in the hands of the right people to make decisions and sort of more efficiently and effectively make decisions, but it's a lot of data. And so Hydro Ottawa has over 6000 kilometers of lines. You know, this, of course, as our partner, we have a big territory, and we have a fairly treed territory. That's a lot of data points. You're collecting a lot of data from your satellites. You're doing analysis on that. How are you doing that analysis? Is it, you know, AI is kind of a buzzword, and every sector right now, and the utility sector is no different. Are you using some form of AI or machine learning analytics? What are you doing in terms of, you know, crunching the numbers and coming up with the right actions?   Lynn Petesch  21:59 Totally, yeah, AI is a buzzword, but it's also very exciting. I think utilities have really embraced it already. They're using it for demand forecasting. They're using it for customer service. They're using it for asset planning. I mean, at the core, Overstory has been using AI to turn remote sensing data into operationally useful intelligent about their vegetation. So when you say yes, Hydro Ottawa has that many 1000s of kilometers of overhead lines, we need to a rank it to them. This is your worst circuit. This is your worst area. This is the area where you have the most hazard trees, for example. So we can really rank order on a span level, from the worst to the best, right? So that could be one thing, it's still an overwhelming amount of data. So where we started by using AI to kind of predict that whereas the trees How tall are, they were and they were relation to the conductors. Now what we're really excited about, or kind of leaning into, with AI, is how to intelligently, kind of assess and prioritize risk. So not every hazard tree has the same impact. If a hazard tree falls on a line where more houses are dependent on you will knock out the power of more people. So it's always a prioritization exercise, and leveraging AI for that is what is most exciting to us right now. And I think it's important to note that we also don't just want it to be a black box. All of the models we've built, they're always validated by certified arborists and kind of our utility partners. And I think at this stage, this is very important, because every tree that we find exists in the real world, and so validating this, AI in the with ground truthing, has been really important for us to also build that trust in the technology.   Trevor Freeman  23:42 That's great. And I do think it's helpful for our listeners to kind of understand the context before this, this work is sort of done, you know, in the absence of a tool like yours, it's, it's sort of done. You know, there's a degree of manual effort here. There's a degree of patrolling the lines. There's a cycle of vegetation management. So if you've done a line this year in three years or four years or five years, you want to be looking at it again. This takes a little bit of that, I don't want to call it guesswork, but it takes a little bit of that manual effort out of the equation, and really focuses efforts in the right way. And it's only with the tools that you know you folks are using that you're able to do that volume of analysis and get that pinpoint accuracy. So that's fantastic. Let's, let's get into kind of the success of it at all, like the big picture. We've obviously talked a couple times here that you're our partner here at Hydro Ottawa, so I know that the success that we're having with you, but you know, tell us some of the great success stories with other utility partners. Are you, you know, are you actually reducing weather related outages? Are you seeing the impact of using the overstory tools and methodology to support utility partners?   Lynn Petesch  24:58 Yeah, I mean weather related outages can mean many things. You have trees knocking over, like the pole might crack, etc, you know, those there's a lot of things that can happen during a storm. And I've heard a lot of stories about side of some of the storms that Ottawa has experienced in the past years, where, you know, you could have had anything, and they're just heavier, and that the consequences are really strong, but what we can impact is the tree cost outages, right? And that we've proven with Hydro Ottawa, where, within a year, by focusing that targeted program on going to an area where you had a massive amounts of these trees that were dying off and they at any point, was just a little bit too heavy wind could be toppled over and fall on the line, we had a 44% reduction in tree cost outages. That's a real, tangible number. You can see, I'm thinking about utility as well. In the on the East Coast, a co op that runs through very rural areas. In those areas, you have a trees outside of the right of way that are toppling over on two lines. So tree cost outages are a huge issue for them, and it's really impacting their safety and safety those key, key KPIs that utilities are always tracking and by us just giving them a rank order of which has a tree they had so many of them, which has a tree to even go to first, because if that has a tree were to fall on a line, a ton more people are going to be out of power than if the other one were to fall the line, you will have, like one rural cabin that will not have power. And that led to a reduction of something around 90% of tree cause outages is to 70% it's still a long way to go, but it was a really tangible number that you can see, and it shows that if you then do that proactive work, you have real impact on your tree cost outages. And it's if I think about our customer in California, Pacific Gas and Electric, for example, it's a lot around helping them understand where they don't need to go. So it's kind of doing something of a visual inspection and actually skipping certain spans, that can be itself a really big use case. Because right now, if you don't have an understanding about where your risks are, you might be spending trucks to roll for hours around areas where there is not really any tangible work to be done. So redirecting them to the right areas is where we've seen a lot of success there, and that obviously leads to budget wins, right? You'll be saving a lot of money by doing that. And those are kind of the use cases that we chase and that we kind of help prove the cases on.   Trevor Freeman  27:29 Absolutely, yeah, there's, there's only so many resources you can you can throw at this, and making sure that we prioritize and focus those resources in the right spot is absolutely critical. You were just talking about the West Coast, and you mentioned this earlier. I know wildfires is is an area that is obviously of great interest for your organization. We're fortunate here at Hydro Ottawa, and that we haven't really had to deal with that much. But anybody who's you know following the news knows this is a major problem for us. So how, what is your role in helping those utilities prevent wildfires? Maybe give us, like, a very quick primer on why utilities are a factor when it comes to wildfires first, and then how your organization is supporting that.   Lynn Petesch  28:13 So unfortunately, utility cost wildfires tend to be the most catastrophic wildfires because they're critical infrastructure, and we've obviously seen that happen across the world, in in the US recently, again and again. But utility cost wildfires, as I said at the beginning, are also the actual wildfires that are preventable. So that's really where we're lying to lying into a lot of the forests right now. They've become Tinder boxes. That is obviously because of fire suppression policies? That's because of forest management techniques that have been leveraged in the last couple of 100 years that are slowly changing at different paces? Canada's had some, unfortunately, some really bad fire seasons recently as well. And so where overstory wanted to place itself as a net prevention space to even not add to the point where you have a spark, because there's a lot of tools out there that focus on mitigation and what is, what do you do when you see that first plume of smoke coming up? And so we've landed in kind of really focusing on the prevention side, so that utilities are hopefully in the future, not the ones that spark any of those catastrophic wildfires we've already always been looking at that the vegetation that could touch your conductor, right? That's I've been speaking about that a lot, but now we're really excited for the first time, and we recently announced that we launched a fuel detection model. So that's us looking at the ground fuel conditions, and those are actually usually the key contributors to the spark that spreads the fire. We're now providing that to utilities as a much higher resolution than ever before. For me, it's interesting because I've spent a lot of time looking at trees, and now I'm going into the field and I'm looking at the ground, and it's a new perspective. But yet again, we could just, you know, we don't want to overwhelm our customers. A lot of maps and showing the fuel conditions, necessarily, we can really help them identify those spans where a single failure would have the greatest consequence. So yet again, it's about how to make that data that, you know, there's a lot of wildfire risk map out there, but make it a very actionable list of spans that if they were to tackle those they are very proactively reducing the risk of igniting a fire. And as a result of the protecting their communities.   Trevor Freeman  30:29 Got you so it's not just about the overhead trees, branches, etc, contacting the line. It's, you know, if a switch goes, if an insulator pops, if, if something happens that will cause sparks. What's happening on the ground below that line, and how do we make sure it is able to withstand sparks? That might happen.   Lynn Petesch  30:49 Exactly if you have dry grasses, if you have sagebrush, if you have certain types of fuels, they're just much more likely to spark a fire and then spread, spread out without there even be any any trees you have these prairies along Texas that can blow up in a fire very quickly, and the fires can spread to tremendous sizes. And so understanding the fuels on the ground is really important.   Trevor Freeman  31:15 Super interesting and fascinating work to get involved in. As you mentioned, this is obviously an area of, I don't even know if I call it growing concern anymore, great concern for for the utility industry and all of us. Yeah. So with the technology that's, you know, we talked about AI a little bit ago, it's literally growing before our eyes. It's really evolving fast. Do you see your technology evolving along with it. What's what's kind of next for your organization? You talked about getting into sort of the ground vegetation management. What comes next? How do you see it evolving as AI and tools evolve?   Lynn Petesch  31:52 Yeah, I mean, if we see that the future is where we want to support a grid that is much safer and reliable, as I mentioned, we also want to make it sure it's resilient to the climate and the economic pressures that there are. So our initial focus and our continued focus, and where we have a lot of our expertise has been with vegetation. Now we're starting to look at the ground fuels, then that naturally evolves into looking at the asset vulnerabilities. So you know, the actual polls, and if there's any failures potentially on those as well as further weather exposures, right? It becomes, then about the soil moisture. It comes about the wind speed. It becomes around the rain, precipitation, etc. So there's a myriad of things that we can start looking at and that we want to start looking at in order to get that more holistic view of risk, and go beyond just vegetation right now, where we're investing most heavily in is that wildfire risk. There's also the resolution that we see with satellites right now is at 30 centimeter that may drop down to 15 or 10 centimeters, so the resolution will get higher. There's other sources that we're exploring already flying, sometimes aerial imagery that is at that five to 15 centimeters, then you would really start seeing soon, you can start seeing a leaf on a on a tree. It gets really impressive. There's lighter there's lots of other kind of remote sensing technologies that we're looking to leverage in the future. And then, as a company as well, we're starting to, obviously expand internationally. We started working with utilities in New Zealand that have very similar problems and various regulatory changes. They also have a problem with wildfire risks. So that is, that is another angle that at Overstorey We're chasing right now.   Trevor Freeman  33:35 Yeah, I'm glad you brought up that. You know, understanding of other assets beyond just vegetation, has kind of been running through my head of we talk about, and I think we've talked about it here on the show. If we haven't, I should do an episode on that, like a digital twin, a digital twin of our grid, and really having a good understanding of not just, you know, a line drawn on a map of, Hey, your circuits run this way, but really physically, what's happening out there, and being able to sort of model that interact with it in a digital way, to understand, if we do X, Y and Z, what happens. So the technology that you guys are using to really get good imagery and understanding of what's out there, well, I think what I'm hearing from you is could potentially be leveraged in that next level to understand, what pulls do we have? What health are they in? What you know, what's happening with that conductor? Is it sagging too much? Is it in good health? Like there's, there's all this opportunity that's really fascinating to hear.   Lynn Petesch  34:31 Yeah, already. Now, when we look at transmission corridors, we look at the sag of these lines, and the terrains are also really challenging, something to look at. So there's a lot of factors that need to be taken into account. And that can only expand as we want to look at risk more beyond just the vegetation element.   Trevor Freeman  34:48 Very cool. Well, Lynn, very interesting to hear this. I'm really glad you came on the episode or the show today to talk to us. Fascinating to hear what Overstory have to I know that we're super excited to be. Working with you here at Hydro Ottawa and excited for what comes next. We always end our interviews with a series of questions, so I'm going to dive into those and here we go. What is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?   Lynn Petesch  35:13 I was thinking about an author more than a book. My favorite author is Jonathan Franzen. If I would recommend one book, it'd probably be Corrections, his most famous one, I believe. But they're like, these chunky, 800-900 page books where you kind of get immersed in these families and you feel like you know them at the end, and they kind of, I think about them for like, months afterwards. They're really good reading, at least for the winter when it's cold and you spend a lot of time inside. So probably Jonathan Franzen books, yeah.   Trevor Freeman  35:41 Yeah, we're we're recording this just before the holidays, and I think we'll be releasing the episode after but winter is such a great time to curl up with a book, and it's awesome to have a good recommendation of a nice thing.   Lynn Petesch  35:53 It'll be called in January.   Trevor Freeman  35:56 Absolutely. So same question, but a movie or a show?   Lynn Petesch  36:00 Yeah, I'm not a big movie buff, but I recently rewatched What's Eating Gilbert Grape, seen it with Johnny Depp and Leonardo DiCaprio, and I always felt like Leonardo DiCaprio should have received an Oscar for that performance back when he was 14. But, yeah, it's a beautiful movie. awesome.   Trevor Freeman  36:20 Awesome yeah, that's a bit of a blast from the past, but you're right. That is a fantastic one. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would go?   Lynn Petesch  36:27 French Polynesia, because it's so far I've never been a friend who went. I'm sure it's very expensive to go there, so it'd be great for someone too. Yeah, no, that's a place I'll go one day.   Trevor Freeman  36:41 So, yeah, fantastic. Who is someone that you admire?   Lynn Petesch  36:45 Yeah, that's a it's a tricky one, because I was thinking about, like, people, you know, in, I know, family, etc. But like, if I were to think about a, and it's a little left field, about a public persona, and also a bit of a blast from the past, I'll think about Tina Turner. She's been my icon since I'm a kid, I was always listening with my dad to Tina Turner. And I think the word that I've probably most used in today's episode was like resilience. And I always think about her as like possibly the most resilient woman in the world who reinvented herself and her career in her 40s and 50s, and is this complete power woman, you know, always done everything at her own terms. So get so much energy from not just her music. I've seen so many documentaries about her, and she's always been this kind of woman that I know, filthy with energy and kind of like drive. So I'm a big, big fan of Tina Turner.   Trevor Freeman  37:38 That's fantastic. I have to say, that's never come up on the show before, and now I need to go and dive down a rabbit hole of like, learning about Tina Turner listening to some music.   Lynn Petesch  37:47 Yeah, she's great woman.   Trevor Freeman  37:48 Yeah, good answer. Last question, what's something about the energy sector, or let's expand that to kind of the climate sector that you're really excited about?   Lynn Petesch  37:59 Yeah, I'm gonna take a very high level. But I think the thing I've always been following the most is, like, that broad topic of the energy transition, and I think the recent changes, or like, kind of the way we talk about it, has become a lot more interesting, because it used to be this kind of fluffy, big kind of vision, and now we're in that phase where it just has to be very practically implemented, and we're trudging along with it, no matter the political climate, etc, there is kind of a move forward. And I actually really liked the way that, I think, when I first started learning about it, or getting interested in it, it was always about renewables, and now it's around just sort of like needing to build a system that is both, like low carbon and climate resilient. And there's something in that, like way we talk about it now that I find really interesting. There's immense amounts of innovation in it. So yeah, I'm just enjoying following what's happening on that and how we are. We're moving that direction, no matter what's happening right now. So that's exciting.   Trevor Freeman  38:55 Yeah, okay, when I know my listeners are probably roll their eyes, because I say this all the time, but it's a very exciting time to be in this industry, and very exciting to kind of see the evolution of energy and how we're interacting with it, how it's impacting our society. And we really feels like we're at an inflection point. And very great to have you working on one aspect of it that people probably don't think about a lot. So thanks very much for what you're doing.   Lynn Petesch  39:19 Yeah, exactly. When you start working for Overstory, the one thing that happens is, wherever you go, you see trees and power lines. And I have very keen eye for, unfortunately, trees that are in poor health right now. So that's one of the professional things I've developed.   Trevor Freeman  39:35 Carry like a spool of red ribbon around you can, like, tie on the at risk trees and just so someone could come along. Lynn, thanks so much for coming on the show today. Really appreciate it. It's been great chatting with you.   Lynn Petesch  39:45 Thank you so much.   Trevor Freeman  39:46 Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear. From you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected]..

It's a new year, so we're unpacking what 2026 could bring for Canada's energy sector. Host Trevor looks back at 2025, from shifting federal policy to rapid AI adoption. Then he scans the horizon: faster major project approvals, an east–west grid push, and new hydro and small modular reactor investments in Ontario. He also touches on AI-powered DER programs, battery storage, and wider support for industrial decarbonization. Plus a quick note on the podcast's new pace.   Related links   ●       Independent Electricity Systems Operator (IESO): https://www.ieso.ca/    ●       Save on Energy program: https://www.saveonenergy.ca/   ●       Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114   ●       Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405    To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl    To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/  --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa  Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa  Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Welcome to a thinkenergy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back and Happy New Year. Welcome to 2026 this is the first think energy podcast episode of this new year. Happy to be here with you. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman. So last year, we started off 2025 with a little bit of a look forward at some of the energy stories we might see throughout the year. And I think this goes without saying, 2025 was a pretty eventful year when it comes to energy and politics and all things associated with that certainly had lots of twists and turns, more than any of us expected. But I kind of think that's just the new normal in all things this during this time of history, but certainly when it comes to energy as well, I think we should just expect every year to be unexpected, lots of twists and turns. So I think the best way to start this one is to look back at some of the things we said we were keeping our eye on at the beginning of last year and see how they turned out, and see whether or not our predictions or guesses were correct and kind of what happened throughout the year. So just for a little bit of context, when we recorded this episode last year, Justin Trudeau, Canada's Prime Minister at the time, had just resigned the leadership of the party and as prime minister. So we knew that a new leader was coming for the Liberal Party, and likely a federal election was on the horizon. And at the time, the Conservative Party in Canada was much more popular with voters according to polls, and it looked very much like there would be a new government, a new federal government, but that is not what happened. And I'm sure Canadians will know that is not what happened. So after Justin Trudeau resigned, the liberals climbed in the polls. They chose Mark Carney to lead them, and not long after they won the election. Now in the episode last year, I had said that should the Liberals stay in power, which seemed like a long shot at the time, but should the Liberals stay in power? We knew what their energy policy was. They would keep the carbon the price on carbon. They would invest, continue to invest, in clean energy infrastructure and continue working towards their net zero goals. They had been working on that that was kind of a main pillar of the liberal party's approach to governing, and that felt like a safe bet. But even that did not come to pass. On his first day in office, Mark Carney canceled the price on carbon, and soon after that, he paused the previous government's EV target, or target to achieve certain sales on electric vehicles, and just recently, he has signed an MOU to work with Alberta on a new bitumen pipeline. So that is a little bit different than what we expected, should a Liberal government continue? So why is all this happening? Well, this, this isn't a politics podcast, so we're not going to get into all the specifics, but plainly stated, the government is saying they want to position Canada as a leader, both in clean energy, but also economically. And there are some economic pressures that the government is under, and this is what they are saying that is the best way to move forward in that so we'll get to some of the outlook on the new government, or not so new anymore government, but the current government shortly. But let's have a look at some of the other things that we said might happen for 2025 last year, we noted that utility companies would likely continue to use AI to streamline their processes and monitor infrastructure and just really take more advantage of AI. Personally, I can say that AI has moved forward in ways that we couldn't even predict last year, at least that, you know I couldn't predict last year. I'm sure there's folks out there who totally saw where this saw where this was going, but AI really is taking off in our personal lives, certainly in the workspace and definitely in the utility space as well. So we saw some of that come true, but we also see that AI is capable of way more than that in the energy sector, like all sectors of the economy and all areas of society are really looking at new ways to use AI and figure out what's the best way to integrate this into our business. How do we take this from pilot projects to, you know, actual core parts of our business? So that's continuing for sure. We also said that electricity companies or utility companies would continue to invest in. Grid modernization, and that certainly is happening. In August of 2025 the federal government announced a plan to spend over $13 million to update Ontario's power grid, with five major projects on the horizon, which is a huge investment, and investment of this size is really intended to make the system more reliable and help manage projected electricity demand. And you know the other thing, and I'm sure I've talked about this before on other episodes, so you'll be aware that hydro Ottawa is still in the in the process of getting approval for our next five-year plan, which has big investment in reliability and modernization and supporting continued electrification. And of course, we talked a little bit about the trade conflicts with the US, and you know how Canada is responding to that. And certainly, that was a major piece of 2025 it really formed a lot of the policy, or influenced a lot of the policy of both our federal government as well as provincial government when it comes to energy projects, it's increasing that look kind of east to west, rather than north to south. So making sure that we have good interprovincial energy cooperation and collaboration. And certainly, we've saw some progress on that throughout 2025 so on the sort of provincial side of politics, again, I'm in Ontario here, so we had suggested that we would likely see a provincial election in 2025 and certainly that's exactly what happened. The Ontario Conservative Party won another mandate, and part of their approach since they've come back into power, or one that new mandate is to look to expand clean energy, look to expand our nuclear fleet in particular. And we'll talk a little bit more about this in a little bit. So that's kind of a summary of the 2025 outlook that we did a year ago. Now let's get into what might we see moving forward in 2026 and again, you know, just the caveat here, this isn't a politics podcast. This is strictly about energy. So going to try not to weigh in on one side or the other of some of these issues, just highlighting what we might see moving forward. So, first off, major projects. So in 2025, this sort of newly elected Prime Minister of Canada, Mark Carney, founded the major projects office. This department looks to streamline the approval process for what they consider nation building projects. You know, trying to help take the approval process for those projects to be like a two-year decision rather than a five year decision under that kind of previous process that it went through. On the website for this the Liberal Party states that they open the major projects office in part to build clean energy infrastructure quickly, and of the 11 nation building projects that they've announced so far, they are categorizing eight of those 11 as clean economy projects. On top of these, Mark Kearney reiterated his commitment to building an East West electricity grid, which would link those our provinces together and help, like I said earlier, help that flow of electricity east to west, you know, between provinces improve, rather than, you know, right now, we have a lot of great north south connections between us and the United States. So the intent is that these projects will really position Canada as a leader in clean energy, help us achieve our own carbon reduction and net zero goals and ensure that we can manage growing demand for electricity. So we're in very early days of those projects yet, and what I'm highlighting here is that we expect to see a lot more information about those projects, about how they're going to proceed, timelines, etc, during the course of this year, and likely even see some new ones get added to that to that current list. So speaking of major projects, our next item that we're keeping an eye on is the Alberta to BC pipeline. This definitely has been a big news item in the latter part of 2025 and as we move into 2026 we expect to see a lot more about it and hear a lot more about it. So near the end of 2025 the federal government smart Carney signed an agreement with Alberta's Premier. Alberta's government, led by Danielle Smith, and this agreement acknowledges the plan to collaborate on and expedite the approval process for a new pipeline, which will transport oil from Alberta to the coast of BC. And the federal government is calling this a nation building project, and it would streamline the review process for this pipeline. So really make it a lot easier to get through the various hurdles in order to actually be built. And sort of initial timelines are saying Construction is expected to start in 2029 So still a few years out. But this pipeline was controversial before the agreement was signed. So this pipe. China has been on the books, or, you know, in the plans for a while, and it was controversial to start with, and this agreement has, you know, only made it more so it was really skyrocketed this project into the public's eye, and there's a lot of controversy around it. Once the announcement went public, Liberal MP, Stephen Gilbeau resigned from the Prime Minister's cabinet citing the government's decision to walk back their climate commitments. So this is definitely controversial, mainly because a new pipeline will increase fossil fuel production by, you know, at least a million barrels per day is sort of the current estimate, which is counter to Canada's stated target of reducing greenhouse gas emissions and achieving net zero emissions by 2050. In addition, BC's Premier, David Eby, also opposes the project, arguing that the federal government moved ahead without meaningfully considering BCS concerns British Columbia's concerns, particularly around environmental risk and the spill response on BC's sensitive coastline and on their marine ecosystem, which would be put at risk by adding another pipeline in the area that they're talking about. In addition to that, many indigenous people in BC and elsewhere stand against the pipeline, and the government is still looking for indigenous stakeholders as part of this project. Now, Mark Carney and Danielle Smith both say they want Canada to reach its net zero target by 2050 but even after the deal was signed, Alberta announced some changes to its industrial carbon pricing mechanism that, you know, in a sense, weakened that tool, which a lot of people are kind of pointing at to say, clearly, climate targets are not a key driver in consideration in this. And so this there's a weakening of the climate tools that we do have in place is not a great sign, and we'll leave it at that. So there's a few caveats to this deal. First, the pipeline is only supposed to move forward if there's real progress on carbon capture. In other words, the pipeline and large-scale climate capture are kind of being treated as a package. So in theory, you shouldn't get one without the other. But carbon capture is yet to be implemented at scale. It's not clear that it's actually a viable solution, something that can actually have a meaningful impact at that scale. So it remains to be seen whether or not that that can actually happen second. And this is a big one, the pipeline needs a private sector partner to actually build it, and nobody stepped up for that yet. So it's important to know that this agreement between the federal government and the Provincial Government of Alberta is just to help streamline the process. Should a private sector partner come along to actually build this, the federal government's not saying they're going to fund it and build it, which is sort of contrasts with how the previous Liberal government traded a pipeline many years back. But we won't get into that here. So all that to say, don't expect any actual movement or shovels in the ground on this one anytime soon. And certainly, as this progresses, there will be lots of legal challenges, and sort of you know, there are, there are people on both sides of this, but we will hear a lot more about this in 2026 it's going to be a big news story. Things are going to happen, and we'll hear both from proponents of the pipeline as well as opposition to the pipeline throughout this year, it will definitely be a big energy story here in Canada and even beyond that, Okay, next up investments in Ontario, so let's look a little bit closer to at least home. For me, on a greener note, Ontario will expand its clean energy sector in 2026 the government has announced several new partnerships with indigenous groups, including two large scale hydroelectric dams in northern Ontario. We talked a little bit about that in a previous episode, and they've also committed $4.7 billion to refurbish and update existing hydroelectric facilities to make sure that they can continue to provide clean electricity well into the future. So some of these new stations, there's the Nine Mile rapids project and the Grand Rapids project. They are coming online, you know, at a time when we really do need additional capacity on our grid. So ISO, as I've talked about many times, ISO is predicting that by 2050 we'll see a 75% increase overall in the province. But specifically in northern Ontario, demand for electricity will increase by over 80% and to meet that demand, there's, you know, this is an all tools in the toolbox. Kind of approach here, in addition to all the other great things that are happening, distributed energy resources, energy efficiency, etc, we also do need more infrastructure, more generation. The government also wants to expand Ontario's nuclear fleet. This is a government that's very keen on using nuclear. Energy and expansion of our existing nuclear assets as an important tool to provide emissions free electricity. One big step that they've taken towards this goal is investing $3 billion into four small modular reactors, which will produce, you know, 1200 approximately 1200 megawatts of energy, which is a lot that's enough to power over a million homes. Construction on these started in 2025 but the reactors aren't expected to come online until 2030 but the important point is that the government is very keen, as I said, on nuclear energy, looking to expand our emissions free electricity in order to meet our growing electricity demand, but to do so in a way that still tries to approach our climate targets and make sure that we're providing emissions free energy. Okay, next step is AI we talked about this last year, and it's well, it'll be a topic of conversation for many, many years to come. So AI and electrification, lots more in store. This year, it'll be a key investment area for energy companies. Moving forward, for sure, we'll see utilities continue to use it to build smart grids, for example, to analyze the flow of electricity on their grids in real time. And hydro Ottawa is no different. We're a part of that as well. So just in the last few weeks here, at the very end of 2025 in December, the federal government announced a $6 million investment into hydro Ottawa's der accelerator program. And part of that program looks to utilize AI to help us analyze electricity demand manage it. So this program really looks to partner with customers in specific areas, areas of constraint, to leverage their own devices. So customer owned devices like smart thermostats, battery storage systems in order to help us manage electricity demand. And we'll use AI as a function of that, or as a tool to help us do that to really forecast when we need to take action and what action we can take. But AI goes well beyond that. So electrification is going to grow. Overall, electricity demand is going to grow. We're going to see more utilities looking for solutions like large scale battery storage systems in order to tackle that demand. These systems, the storage will help relieve the grid from additional stress and better utilize the infrastructure that we do have in place. So lots more to come on, the sort of next gen of technology when it comes to AI and grid mod and how we're going to use those to help manage this growing electricity demand that we're seeing Next up, and our last kind of main topic is decarbonization. So that's not anything new. Obviously, if you're listening to this podcast, you'll know that we talk about this all the time, and it's one of the main drivers of what's happening in the energy industry right now. But decarbonization continues. It's not a constant flow of progress in the same direction. There's sort of ebbs and flows, if you will. We saw lots of change on the decarbonization front in the last year, but it continues to be something that organizations need to figure out. We know that we need to decarbonize as a society. Our different sectors of the economy all need to figure out how they're going to decarbonize, and the stakeholders of that really need to figure out what their role is. So the ieso, as one of those stakeholders, has also been focusing on their own decarbonization support, but mainly Their support has been focused on transportation and building heating. But we expect there to be, you know, a bit of a broadening of that look from the ISO in 2026 looking at other sectors like mining, paper, steel, you know, cement production, refining, chemicals, etc, the list goes on. So really look to see potentially more support for others, other areas of the economy, and how they will achieve decarbonization with, you know, could be industry specific programs or initiatives. We should probably see more of that in the coming year. But that's not to diminish from the existing programs that are already in place, and we'll see more leverage of, for example, of the ISOs existing save on energy incentive programming which helps existing commercial businesses, industrial businesses, residential customers, really target energy efficiency, energy reduction in the in the decarbonization in their own lives or workplaces. So there will be continued leverage of that. Utilities will continue to promote that. So expect to see that be a big piece of 2026 so that's the areas that we've that we've identified in 2026 it'll be interesting to look back a year from now to see you know what happened? Was it in line with what we said here? What came out of the blue that we totally didn't expect? Or what was a bigger deal than. Maybe we thought it would be but really look forward to this year. We've got lots of great conversations planned with some fantastic guests, and really looking forward to exploring some of these topics. Certainly, looking for you guys to connect with us and interact with us. Send us a note, find us on social media. Think energy at hydro ottawa.com is our email address always looking for guest recommendations, topic recommendations, questions, feedback. I'd certainly love to hear from you. You might know it's a little bit of a change in how we do things in 2026 we're certainly committed to continuing to bring you great content and great guests, but we might be shifting to maybe more of a monthly format, so really focusing on bringing those experts on, giving us the time and the space to plan those episodes, to coordinate with the guests and bring you great content. So we'll be looking at one episode a month moving forward, but always happy to hear from you. So if you have thoughts on that format or again topics, guests certainly reach out. Okay, so that wraps up our first episode of the year. Like I said, really looking forward to getting into all the great content this year with you guys. Thanks for tuning in. Happy New Year, and we'll chat with you again soon. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. To spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].

In Part 2 of the Holiday Rewind, Trevor revisits five standout episodes from thinkenergy in 2025. The conversations focus on renewable energy, from Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) and building decarbonization to energy storage, district energy, and the policy forces shaping it all. This episode reflects on how renewables are becoming personal, scalable, and central to Canada's smart energy future. Listen in for a thoughtful look at the momentum we've built and the progress we made.   Related links   Episode 163 (How Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) are reshaping the grid): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/thinkenergy-shorts-how-distributed-energy-resources-ders-are-reshaping-the-grid/  Episode 150 (Decarbonizing Canada's buildings with the Building Decarbonization Alliance): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-canadas-buildings-with-the-building-decarbonization-alliance/  Episode 152 (Capturing lightning in a bottle with Energy Storage Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/capturing-lightning-in-a-bottle-with-energy-storage-canada/  Episode 154 (Reimagining heating and cooling with district energy systems): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/reimagining-heating-and-cooling-with-district-energy-systems/  Episode 149 (Looking ahead at 2025 clean energy trends): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/looking-ahead-at-2025-clean-energy-trends/ Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone and welcome back. Welcome to the second of our special year end holiday rewind episodes that we do here on the think energy podcast, I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, in our last episode, we looked at five conversations or snippets of conversations that we thought, you know, helped shape the way we think about the grid, everything from politics to grid modernization to large scale investments, what Hydro Ottawa in particular is proposing to invest in our grid, but Today is all about the fuel that powers our clean energy future. And I don't mean all the candy and gingerbread and all the sugar that we're going to eat over the next little while, although those help too. I'm talking about renewable energy, solar, District Energy Systems, how we're using distributed technologies to really transform the way we generate and manage and use power here in Canada. Think of this episode as a bit of a, you know, warm fireside reflection on the progress that we've made, the momentum we're carrying into the year ahead. But also keep in mind how far we have to go. We've got more work to do, and 2026 needs to be another year of focusing on that. But today we're going to revisit portions of, you know, five conversations from 2025 that really show how renewable energy isn't just a trend, it's an accelerating shift that's reshaping our homes and our businesses, our communities and even the grid itself. So let's jump right in with our first clip. So today we're going to start with a clip that's close to my heart, because I talk about distributed energy resources all the time, and you guys hear me talk about that all the time with guests and in some of the solo episodes that I do, it's one of the clearest signs that renewable energy is moving from kind of the fringes of the grid, the very large centralized systems to really write on our own rooftops and backyards and on our businesses, DERs represent really that bottom up renewable revolution. So rooftop solar, home batteries, smart EV chargers and more, these are becoming technologies that our friends and neighbors and us, even the listeners of this podcast, have and are using to add real clean energy to the grid and using it in smarter ways. So here's a moment from my distributed energy resources episode that looks at how DERs are becoming those practical tools for resilience, for decarbonization and just for everyday energy use. So let's dive into what some of the reasons are why someone would want a der there's a couple of different reasons. The first is for backup during an outage. So using solar panels, especially if paired with a battery, can give you some backup if there's an outage from the grid, whether that's a storm or an accident or something like that, that backup power can be focused on your key devices or systems or appliances, or if your storage is big enough, or your system is big enough, it may be used to power your whole home for a period of time. Of course, if you're using one of those non renewable sources that I mentioned, like a fossil fuel power generator, for example, then your backup supply can last longer, really, as long as you've got fuel. But it's not clean, so you will be producing carbon emissions. One emerging technology that we'll likely see more of in the future is using an electric vehicle for this purpose. So while there's only a few different models that allow this right now, the Ford F150 is one of them, and there are some safety and regulatory considerations before you go ahead and do this, we can expect to see more of this in the future as the technology advances and it becomes a bit more widespread. Another reason for DERs is financial. Installing a der can actually help you save money every month, whether that's just by reducing what you consume from the grid, or by pushing back unused generation to the grid for credits, and I'll touch on this a little bit more shortly. Finally, if we're talking about those renewable DERs, they produce clean energy. So that's carbon free emissions, free energy. And if you are concerned about your carbon footprint, you're trying to decarbonize and reduce the amount of emissions that you cause. Renewable DERs are a great way to do that. You can lower your carbon footprint by reducing how much you draw from the electricity grid and any carbon emissions that are associated with that. You know what I love about this is just how simple. Empowering. It truly is. Renewable energy isn't industrial scale anymore. You know, everybody can at least envision themselves playing a part in the renewable transition. There's incentives out there to support putting renewables in the business case. Is starting to make sense for homes, for businesses, it's becoming local. And as these DERs grow, they don't just decarbonize homes, they also strengthen resiliency, and, you know, support the other drivers that people have for their energy, having more control over it, having resiliency and backup during outages, etc. And this theme of people having more agency and control over their energy really ties into the next clip that we're going to show as well. We're revisiting again we played this on the last holiday rewind, but we're revisiting our conversation with the Building Decarb Alliance about buildings. Buildings are one of Canada's largest sources of emissions. They're also one of the biggest opportunities for renewable driven change. So in this conversation with Brian Flanagan, we talk about how renewable energy and electrification, so from heat pumps to solar grid integrated building systems, how these things are reshaping the way we heat and cool and power the places that we live and work. And in this clip, I really think it captures the scale of the challenge and the optimism of the transition. You really can't overstate the importance of buildings in our lives. We eat, sleep, work, learn and socialize in buildings, among many, many other things, a huge percentage of our lives takes place inside buildings. In fact, most of us probably have to make a conscious effort to actually spend time outside of buildings. I know that I try to make a point of spending time outside every day, and I have to be conscious about it, because it might not otherwise happen. And as a result of that, centrality in our lives, buildings are major users of energy. Some estimates say that around 30 to 40% of energy use in Canada is associated with buildings, and they're also a major source of greenhouse gas emissions. So around maybe 18% or so in Canada. That means that the buildings themselves and the way we build them, the way we heat them, the way we use them, are an important part of our efforts to decarbonize and to further the ongoing energy transition.   Bryan Flannigan  07:24 We tend to focus on kind of four main areas, making sure that there's policy support at various levels of government, and understanding which policies might be effective and which ones might be less so, and trying to advance the ones that are high leverage, looking at the grid impacts of electrifying buildings. Because it's undeniable that if you switch from fossil combustion of fossil fuels to electricity, you require a clean electricity system that has to have the capacity and be robust enough to support that. So we want to be clear about that. We want to really address that in a cogent sort of way, and then really mobilizing and activating the sector to implement these changes and to find the solutions, because many of the solutions are at the intersection of different subsets of the of the sector, whether it's banking and finance, or whether it's development community or the utilities, every market actor has a role to play to find solutions. Is very rarely one sub sector that can really act to, you know, to overcome a barrier. And so we try to work at the intersection of these different groups, and by convening the players, we can roll up our sleeves and kind of get to that. And then, last but not least, you know, this is a very complex sort of question in terms of, how do we get there? What are the pathways? It kind of reminds me of nutrition, medicine, things like that, where, you know, at one instance, it's great to eat eggs, and another instance, terrible to eat eggs, and then it's good to eat eggs again, because the evidence is shifting right, and we have to follow the evidence. We have to understand that the systems are complex and that various investments in the grid will alter the landscape. And so we're working really hard to increase the analytical capacity of the sector, to model and to be able to understand how this will really play out when you have exponential sort of technological advancement coming to play, and you know, different investments and different dynamics that are bearing out as the sector decarbonizes, which is, it's really complex, and so we need better tools to be able to grapple with that. So those are the four sort of main areas, and it's a heavy lift. We arrive on the scene with great humility, recognizing that we stand on the shoulder of many, many other organizations who have come into the space, trying to take a slightly different approach by bringing all the players together and trying to find some common understanding of how we how we get this done. You know, we have to do something different. We've been doing energy efficiency for four decades, give or take with the programming that we've had, and it's been very effective. I don't think there's any more old T 12 light bulbs anywhere that worked. That's great, but we need to do something different now to get fossil fuels out of the buildings for heating purposes, right? That's the goal.   Trevor Freeman  09:53 So what resonates most for me about Bryan's message is the idea that buildings aren't obstacles to decarbonization. They're really. The engines for it, as the renewable electricity systems we have our buildings will become smarter, cleaner, more efficient, and as we talk about we spend a lot of our time in buildings. And so when we think about grid interactive homes to solar ready construction and thermal storage, the building sector is really becoming a major driver, or has the potential to become a major driver of renewable transformation. So speaking of storage, this next clip is a revisit of the conversation that I had with Justin Rangooni from Electricity Storage Canada, and we explored one of the biggest enablers of renewable energy growth, which is battery storage, because, you know, let's face it, the sun isn't always shining and the wind isn't always blowing in the right direction. And with batteries, you can really create flexibility and stability for your renewable systems. And ultimately, that comes down to possibility. So my conversation with Justin really walks through how these battery systems both utility scale but also behind the meter, kind of more individual sized unlock far more renewable energy by making it dispatchable, resilient, responsive, et cetera. And I think in this next clip, we really capture that beautifully.   Justin Rangooni  11:16 Okay, so the best way to think of it is. There's an analogy that one of our members had always said, and we continue to use it when we talk about energy storage. And the great things that can do is that it's like bacon. It makes everything better. I don't eat bacon, but I take I understand the concept, and what that means is, if you look at it from a grid management point of view is that we have all in Ontario, we're lucky to have a pretty clean grid. If it's nuclear power, or it's water power, or it's intermittent generation like wind and solar and even some gas too, which is which is near zero, low, low carbon, and we don't have coal, so it's a clean grid, and energy storage can make that better in the sense that it will optimize those generation assets so we're not wasting it. So those days before we would hear about when energy is needed but the wind's not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or we don't need the energy and we have to spill water, or, you know, we may have to power down a ramp, down a bit of the nuclear ramp, or the natural gas units. Now, energy storage can make sure we don't waste that now we can collect that power when it's done, when it's when it's being done, when it's being made, and we're holding it for when it's needed. And from a grid management that is the real key. That is the game changer that energy storage provides. And if we break it down, down to the customer themselves. You know, you're trying to think of now, not just helping keep the lights on. We're also talking about your rates now in terms of, now, we can kind of defer those investments in terms of more generation, because now you have energy storage that's getting more out of it. We're also talking from the distribution side of poles and wires. Maybe you don't you can defer those investments a little longer with more distributed, connected energy storage. So now the customer is starting to see the benefits of energy storage in their rates and in their electricity bill. And look, I just got an electric car, so really excited about it, and I can see the possibilities of that car being a battery from my home for my use, which, again, now maybe that's still a bit down the road with B to G and, you know, using it to power a residential energy storage unit in my house. But the possibilities are really endless. So this is really the exciting thing about energy storage, from a Grid Manager down to the customer,   Trevor Freeman  13:38 Yeah, and I think it's, it's important to think about the different contexts that energy storage can play, or the different roles that it can play for our individual customers, a homeowner. There is a role for storage there, and you get some of those benefits that you just mentioned, but then we can scale that all the way up to the grid level. And you know, us in the utility space also have some things that we can do with energy storage. And like you said, we can manage things a little bit better. We don't have to waste that energy. We can generate it when it's cheap and hold on to it and use it when it's maybe a bit more difficult in those peak periods. So lots of different uses. Thanks for laying that out for us. Now we hear a lot about, you know, decentralization and community based energy systems kind of more control at the community level. When it comes to energy what's the role of energy storage in systems like that?   Justin Rangooni  14:34 Well, I think that's energy storage can really make that a reality. Now, again, I think I'll go back to my example having an electric car, it seems like more getting closer to being more a prosumer than just a consumer now. So I can see the possibilities of using electric vehicle. You could and then you start to pair that with other kind of your thermostat or your other smart technologies in your home. So now, when we're talking about decentralizing community-based energy. Systems, the consumer, the utility, the system operator, you're all able to get in the space of playing with the technologies. And that's really again, where it gets kind of exciting, that everyone's playing a role. There are different possibilities to use, and we think energy storage is the key to doing that, because it can store that energy when it's not needed, and you can use it when it's needed. And if the technology evolution continues, eventually, the homeowner, the business owner, can start to use that. I can use buy power from the cars. I can use my power that I'm generating myself or from the distribution grid. And now I can start to play with it and use it store overnight when rates are low or when it's excess supply, I could store that energy and use it when it's needed during the day. So really exciting times, and that's why we think energy storage is key to any decentralized or community-based energy systems.   Trevor Freeman  15:53 Yeah, really unlocks that ability to push control into the hands of the end user, whether that's the homeowner or the business owner or the community, kind of pushes it downstream into their hands. So really, every renewable energy expansion story has, you know, a chapter on storage. Batteries are no longer just an add on. They're becoming really an essential part of the conversation and a consideration for all these projects. And like Justin said, you know, a battery is like bacon. It makes everything better. And I couldn't agree more about bacon and batteries, from batteries powering homes and emergencies to grid scale storage, smoothing out renewable intermittency to neighborhood level systems, supporting micro grids, these are all things that we'll hopefully start to see more in our lives and in our communities. Battery storage is really what turns renewable energy into performance, great performance, and we're actually going to see those impacts. It's also tying into our next episode, because if batteries make renewables flexible, then something like a district energy system is how you really take that to scale. So in this episode that we're going to play a clip from, we took a deep dive into a world that often operates behind the scenes. And it was really great to reconnect with kind of an old friend and colleague, Scott Demark, about district energy systems. These systems provide heating and cooling to entire neighborhoods or campuses by using centralized, efficient infrastructure. And you know, you maybe you're asking, why does this tie into renewable energy? And that's because district systems are one of the most effective ways to integrate large scale renewable heat sources, whether that's taking waste heat from existing sources or geo exchange biomass, you know, ultra-efficient thermal storage, and putting that to good use. And so listen to this clip from my conversation with Scott that kind of captures that idea. So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition this, this push to one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs, and two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, etc, to more of a two way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition? How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?   Scott Demark  18:29 I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in. That industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are just starting right. Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth and so they don't have the same cost structure. And oftentimes they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale, that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where you know you might want to go and recover heat from some process. And we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if you want to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it. But if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly, district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So once you've established that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings, what the source and what the sources doesn't matter. So you may have at one point, built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy Systems a great example of this. Markham district energy system was built on the concept of using a cogeneration facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity. They sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well here we are, 20 plus years later, and they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system, augment, not fully replace, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't have to rip up the pipes, they don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept. Now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.   Trevor Freeman  21:24 And because district energy systems make renewable energy more affordable through scalability and shared infrastructure, in some cases, the economic case for entire communities or neighborhoods or even large industrial complexes to adopt them is really becoming something that people are looking at. It's becoming more compelling. It's not going to work in every instance, as we talk about with Scott in the full episode, but it really kind of opens the door to more possibilities. And that brings us to our final episode highlight, which is a big picture look at some of the politics and trends and strategies that helped shape renewable energy in 2025 now we played a clip from this episode in our last rewind episode, but I want to revisit another part of that episode, and this is the beginning of the year when I kind of laid out some of the trends and things that we thought might shape energy politics in the year ahead, in 2025 and we looked at Canada and the US and global markets to really try and get a sense of where renewable energy was heading, just to remind you of where we were back then. We were facing a couple of elections ahead of us and the possibility for new or different federal governments, political government or provincial government. Sorry, looking at affordability conversations worldwide, momentum around clean generation. In this clip that we're going to play, we really talk about how renewable energy doesn't advance in isolation. It moves forward because of political, economic and technological factors that really help shape those conditions and create those conditions for growth, and those are essential if we do want to grow together. So I'm going to play this clip here and have a listen to kind of what we were thinking about at the beginning of 2025 and just a quick teaser, we'll be doing something similar in the early part of 2026 and so that'll give us a chance to maybe pick apart how close we were to reality. So without further ado, let's dive into those areas. Area number one is politics. So energy is political, and energy shapes politics, and politics shapes energy, and that's the same every year, but 2025, is shaping up to be a pretty significant year when it comes to political change that might impact energy policy. So to start with, we are mere days away, a little over a week away, as I record this from a new US administration. The Trump administration will take over on January 20, and like any change in administration, in what is arguably the biggest economy in the world that will have an impact on climate change policy, Energy policy, the flow of goods across borders. You know, there's talk of tariffs between Canada and the US. So just because it is in the United States, that doesn't mean it won't impact us here in Canada. So we'll be looking to see what change that does bring, what how that influences politics and energy policy and the flow of goods and all of those things that can impact what we do with energy a little bit closer to home. However, we also have some change potentially coming here in Ontario, at least, we are looking at potentially two elections this year. So to start with, there's the federal election. It is very, very likely, almost a sure thing, that we will see a federal election in the coming months. Justin Trudeau has recently announced his resignation, which will almost definitely trigger an election. So we could be looking at a new government or a new mandate for the existing government. So what might that mean? Well, if the. The liberal party, the current government manages to get another mandate and remain in power, we kind of know what their priorities are. They've been going down a path for the last little while. They will probably continue to invest in clean energy infrastructure. They will continue to push for net zero goals and look for ways to support others to achieve Net Zero targets as well. If there's a change in governments, which the polling suggests is likely that conservatives get into power, they are likely to look to prioritize affordability and resource sector competitiveness. They may also adjust timelines for emissions targets as a result of that, the one big thing that's worth mentioning, of course, is the price on carbon. This was brought in by the existing Liberal government, and they stand behind it. The Conservatives are very much campaigning on a platform of getting rid of the price on carbon, the Federal price on carbon, that will have significant impact on energy policy and how things move. There are a few previous episodes that you can listen to that talk a little bit about that, and I'm sure we'll talk about it throughout the year as things play out. And finally, in this section, in Ontario, it's very likely that we might see a provincial election as well. All signs are kind of pointing towards a provincial election this year. So what could that mean? Well, similarly, our existing government has kind of made their energy policy known. We know what their focus is, so they are focused on expanding our traditional energy mix, so nuclear, some natural gas, as well as some investments in renewables in order to make sure that the grid can handle growth and electrification in the sort of rising demand that we're seeing. Should we see a change in government to one of the opposition parties? There may be more of a push for more renewable sources and lowering those carbon emissions faster than the current pace of change, at least based on what they are saying. So we'll keep an eye on that and how that comes into play. Obviously, energy is sort of primarily in the provincial jurisdiction here, so a change in government or a new mandate for the existing government would certainly have a big impact on energy policy. So area number one politics, area number two is energy affordability. So as we've said, renewable energy progress doesn't just depend on the technology itself, it depends on the systems around it. 2025 really turned out to be a pretty pivotal year. And I think we'll probably look at every year in recent history and moving forward as pivotal years, because there was this convergence of political shifts and economic pressures and policy decisions that in some ways created a supportive environment for renewable energy planning and implementation, but not without barriers and not without challenges and so we're probably not where we would have wanted to be at the end of 2025 if we Were being absolutely optimistic. And thinking about a great outcome for the end of the year, but that's not to say progress wasn't made. As we close out part two of our holiday rewind, one thing becomes crystal clear, and something that I want to highlight, renewable energy isn't just a single technology or single story, it's a movement made of many different interconnected pieces, from the specific technologies of DERs that empower our customers to the buildings that are evolving into clean energy assets, to the batteries that are helping unlock flexibility in our renewable energy systems, to systems like district energy that are really transforming communities and campuses, and finally, to the policies and trends and, you know, other forces that are really shaping the pace of all this progress together, they show that there is a future that's cleaner and smarter and more resilient and far more electrified. These things are possible, and we are moving in that direction. The big question is always the pace that we're moving at. Thanks for joining me for our final rewind of the year. In fact, our final episode of the year. On behalf of the entire thinkenergy team, we really are grateful for your time, your curiosity and your commitment to understanding the energy transition, and, quite frankly, to your expertise. I know a lot of folks listening, and everybody that I have on the show really has a lot of great thinking and knowledge on these topics, and I'm really appreciative of getting to talk to those folks and bring some of that insight to the show. We will be back in the new year, absolutely, with more conversations that the goal is to illuminate and challenge and inspire and really continue this conversation with all of you and with our fantastic guests. Until then, stay warm, stay safe and stay energized. Thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].

Canada's energy transition isn't coming. It's already here. As 2025 winds down, Trevor shares a holiday rewind featuring five of the most electrifying conversations from the thinkenergy podcast this year. From clean energy trends and Hydro Ottawa's investment plan to grid modernization, the rise of DERs, and decarbonizing buildings. Sit down with something warm and revisit the insights, challenges, and big ideas that defined our fast-moving energy landscape in 2025.   Related links   Episode 149 (Looking ahead at 2025 clean energy trends): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/looking-ahead-at-2025-clean-energy-trends/ Episode 160 (Digging into Hydro Ottawa's historically large investment plan): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/summer-rewind-digging-into-hydro-ottawas-historically-large-investment-plan/  Episode 162 (Consumer impact: revisiting grid modernization with Capgemini Canada): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/consumer-impact-revisiting-grid-modernization-with-capgemini-canada/  Episode 163 (How Distributed Energy Resources (DERs) are reshaping the grid): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/thinkenergy-shorts-how-distributed-energy-resources-ders-are-reshaping-the-grid/  Episode 150 (Decarbonizing Canada's buildings with the Building Decarbonization Alliance): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/decarbonizing-canadas-buildings-with-the-building-decarbonization-alliance/  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod -------- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. This is our special holiday rewind edition of the thinkenergy podcast, which has become a bit of a tradition around here. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, and as we settle into the final days of the year, it feels like the perfect time to slow down and take a look back at some of the conversations that we feel really shaped 2025 at least, for the podcast and in our own minds. This year, we explored everything from grid modernization to decarbonizing buildings distributed energy resources (DERs) and some of the technologies that are really defining how Canadians live, work and stay connected. Today's episode is the first of a two-part holiday rewind series, each part highlighting five standout episodes that we feel really sparked ideas curiosity and great discussions throughout the year. So pull up a comfortable seat, pour yourself something seasonal and festive, and join me as we revisit some of the insights and innovations that we feel lit up 2025 to start with, we kicked off 2025 with a forward looking conversation on some of the trends that we thought might shape the year, and to be honest that many of them unfolded even more quickly than we expected. In our first episode of 2025 we looked at clean energy trends. We talked through how electrification and AI driven grid intelligence and new customer expectations were really going to change the landscape in real time for us, here's a moment that we captured just how quickly the industry is accelerating and why adaptability is so important to us. At the same time, utilities across the country will continue to invest in grid modernization. So as well as infrastructure expansion, not just modernization, we're also building and growing our grids to keep up with the pace of change, but we need to also be able to leverage more DERs on the grid, so more distributed energy resources, small scale solar generation, things like that. So we will continue to see utilities make steps in that direction. They will look to levels of government to support those initiatives, through programs and funding and regulatory change. So we will continue to see that change in grid modernization, but I know it's definitely a big topic for us here at hydro Ottawa. And finally, in this section, energy efficiency. Energy efficiency is not new. It's been around for quite a while. In fact, it was the primary focus, kind of before we shifted a little bit more towards thinking about carbon. But we cannot fully decarbonize, we cannot fully electrify without significant energy efficiency. We just won't be able to affordably build the infrastructure we need if we're not using energy in an efficient way. So that will continue to be a focus. And in fact, I mentioned the new incentive programs from the province of Ontario that is very much designed to support ongoing energy efficiency measures. So we will continue to see that as a focus in 2025 and our final area, area number five, is technology. So there is no year anymore. In fact, maybe there never was where technology doesn't continue to grow and expand and evolve in ways that we couldn't even imagine, and it does seem like the pace of change is picking up, but I think that's kind of normal. So we will see technology that supports or augments the energy transition continue to evolve in 2025 and the ways that technology influenced that really, you know, we have an idea on some of them, and it'll be interesting to look back in 12 months at what we know in December, 2025 that we didn't even know here today in January. So there you have it. That's going back 12 months. And my expectation of what 2025 might have in store in the new year, I'll be doing a similar deep dive on some of the trends that we've been seeing over the course of this year and what we might expect to continue into 2026 but that idea that the pace of change is accelerating certainly became one of the defining themes of the year, and I think is something that we can expect to stick with us for the foreseeable future. And I think you'll hear echoes of that in all the different episodes that we revisit today. Next up, a modern, reliable grid doesn't just happen. It's built through long term planning, thoughtful investments and a deep understanding of how our communities are growing and how their energy needs are changing. In an episode that we. Least back in June, we unpacked hydro Ottawa's 2026 to 2030 investment plan, and what that means for reliability and customer experience and preparing the system for tomorrow. In this next clip, I chat with Hydro Ottawa's Guillaume Paradis to really get into why it's so critical that we get our investment in the next five years, right for our grid, so that that's a nice segue into his next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this is why it is an investment plan we're out there outlining. These are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that, and so if we don't do this, if we said, look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas, what are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like, quality of service, reliability, safety, etc, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now.   Guillaume Paradis  06:03 Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? What we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 26 to 2030 is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years, what would be an appropriate rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues. We've looked at how we make sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years. And then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers, because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers live, yes, in a positive manner when our service is reliable and power is available, but also financially. From a cost standpoint, we add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives, and so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs the level of investments in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in in our setting the plans for the future. So doing so looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans, if we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers. And we took a very deliberate, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place. So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing. You know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it ranges from, you know, difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community so fairly direct, and frankly, you know, it's our obligation to connect, so we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult take more time on the reliability front again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80 year old wood pole doesn't get any younger and. Doesn't get any stronger if you wait five, six more years. And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those type of assets. And you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those polls that are deteriorated are more likely to fail, even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for our customers, with respect to other outcomes, like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources, that might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we're don't have good real time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest so old assets are inherently more likely to create failure risks and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint. So we would have to and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be an R always very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems. But reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences. And of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that, you know, we continue to deliver the best service we can, but that would become more difficult than it is today.   Trevor Freeman  12:29 So that forward focus, that planning for the city that Ottawa is becoming and our energy needs of the future really reflects that shifting mindset that we're seeing across the whole sector. And I think we saw that throughout 2025 and certainly are going to keep seeing that throughout 2026 for our next clip, one of our most popular conversations of the year, not surprisingly, was with Andrea Nuesser from Capgemini, Canada. Andrea and I dug deep into what it means to modernize the grid, how technology, data, cybersecurity and customer expectations are all coming together and pushing utilities into a new era of grid management and grid design. This was a really great, wide-ranging conversation, but there was one moment that really stood out for its clarity and simplicity, and it highlighted this idea that modernizing the grid isn't just about technology alone. It's primarily about people. Yeah, well, let's do that right now. Actually, it's exactly where I wanted to go. Next is you and I have chatted before and talked about how there is this shift in how utilities are seeing customers, and there's a traditional mindset of how utilities looked at their customers, which has been different from you know, take your average retail customer, or retail relationship between an organization and a customer, utilities are shifting more. So let's dive into that. Tell me a little bit more about what that shift is, and how you see utilities moving in terms of how they engage with customers.   Andrea Nuesser  14:00 Yeah, so when I started working with utilities, the term rate payer was a very prominent term. So utilities would refer to their customers as rate payers, or in terms of account numbers, really and what mattered was really just how much electricity do these accounts or these rate payers consume, and there was very little other consideration around that. So I think there's a real shift happening right now where utilities are trying to understand who is this, who is this family, who are these individuals behind these account numbers? Because if I understand and if I become interested as a utility in who is actually consuming electricity, I can have a very different relationship with them. I can reach them with the right messaging, because it matters a lot to me. And if somebody talks to me and understands that. Let's say I'm a growing family living in a more urban area versus a retired couple out in the booth somewhere. So I think demonstrating that understanding really opens up opportunities for much deeper relationship and more targeted customer programs and overall, different messaging and communication, and ultimately an opportunity to build trust between customers and utilities, something that in the past, has been a little bit shaky, I would say, but there's huge opportunity to build brand awareness, to build this, this value based relationship and to build trust.   Trevor Freeman  15:45 I really liked this conversation, and I liked this particular moment because it really conveys that grid modernization goes beyond just the technological improvements, and it really prioritizes the human relationships and human interaction at the heart of our energy system, ultimately, all of this that we talk about on the show, the technology, the strategies, the policies, it's all about how we as people, as energy consumers, interact with our energy systems and use it to do all the other things in our life that are important doing, you know, heating our spaces and traveling and moving our families from one place to another, and all these things that are actually the important things are tied up in the energy system. And I liked how this conversation really tied those, those two concepts together. Next up this year, we definitely talked about distributed energy resources. It's been a theme of the podcast for a long time now, but we really are seeing lots of movement and progress. And this episode that I'm about to highlight really broke down how rooftop solar, battery storage, EVs, smart devices, they're all creating a more dynamic, flexible and decentralized grid. So it's taking DERs from just kind of standalone devices that do their own thing to really this ecosystem of devices and technologies that interact together. In this clip that you're about to hear, we explore why DERs, they're not just a technical change, but they're really a cultural one as well. One option to set up your der for financial reasons, is net metering, which I kind of alluded to earlier. Net metering is a setup for renewable generation sources only that allows you to use as much of your generation as you can to power your home when you're using it, and then push back whatever you don't use to the grid. Whatever you push back to the grid will give you a credit on your bill that you can use to offset the electricity charge portion of your bill. In the near future, you will also likely see more utilities wanting to partner with der owners. Here at hydro Ottawa, we are working on a technology project that will be launched next year that will enable der owners to leverage their devices for an incentive to help manage the grid in targeted areas. It's pretty exciting stuff, and it's really the next wave of distributed energy resources on our grid and how we're going to interact with them. It's pretty exciting. And finally, last one for this episode, one of our more thought provoking conversations of the year was with Bryan Flannigan from the Building Decarbonization Alliance. In this conversation, we talked about decarbonizing Canada's buildings. Bryan helped us really unpack why buildings are such a significant part of Canada's emissions profile, and why solutions require systems thinking, collaboration and long-term commitment. This clip really kind of captures the heart of that conversation, balancing practicality with urgency. Yeah, I know on this show, we talk a lot about the different parts of, as you said, all of society that need to be decarbonized. Obviously, buildings kind of comes to the forefront often, and so specifically around buildings talk us through this, maybe kind of a basic question, but, you know, help our listeners understand, why are buildings so important? Why is the decarbonization of our built environments so important when it comes to decarbonizing all of society?   Bryan Flannigan  19:17 Yeah, I mean, that's the crux of the question, right? Well, there's a bunch of reasons. I mean, if you think about it, the building, this is where we live, right? These are our homes. These are this is where we go to work. This is our place. Is a business from an economic perspective, organizations arrive in jurisdictions for the purposes of meeting their overall objectives. And if you require energy intensive sort of production. Or if you want to have a big workforce, you want to house your workforce in buildings that align with your objectives. And increasingly, those objectives feature a carbon kind of future, right? And so just from that perspective, it's important for us to kind of get aligned with the global trend toward this, to make sure that we have the investments that we need. And that we want to attract, and we want to have places where people can live that are aligned with those kinds of values. But from an emissions perspective, it's hard to kind of overstate how important the sector actually winds up being. The building sector emits about 90 megatons, give or take, of direct scope one emissions. And if you factor in the grid emissions that result from being buildings being connected to the grids across Canada. It's about 120 megatons. There are digits there that we could go into. But to put it into context, that's about the same as all of the vehicles on the road. So when we think about how important it is to electrify the fleet of vehicles that we're all driving, the building sector is the same. It's the same level of importance. And if we think about all of the work that we've done to decarbonize our electricity system over the years, eliminating coal plants, and those kinds of initiatives that we hear are in the news recently, the building sector emits about twice as much as all of that. And so, the context is that buildings are pretty vast in terms of the overall emissions. And when we think about where those emissions come from, ultimately, it's combustion of fossil fuels for heating our buildings. We're in a cold climate in Canada, takes a lot of energy to heat buildings, and because of the abundance of the resource and a bunch of policy decisions that have been made decades ago, you know, we're in a situation where we've got an abundant and relatively inexpensive source of fossil fuel to heat our buildings. It's about 1500 petajoules, I guess, give or take, and ultimately, we need to move to eliminate that over time, or to largely eliminate it. I mean, I think there's always going to be a bit left in the system. There's, you know, it's, it's a very complex and daunting task, because the building sector itself is very diverse. The buildings last a really long time. It's not like, you know, technology change, where you have if you want to change a phone, you can upgrade it from one year to the next. It's small. It fits in your pocket. It's easy to manage. But buildings are constructed to last hundreds, 100 years. 50 years is the typical lifespan. But, you know, we have lots of buildings that are very, very old, and it's a slow kind of system to turn over. It's a slow inventory to turn over. So it's a really big challenge, a lot of a lot of emissions from the sector. And so it rises to the level of really needing close attention and a different approach than what we've been taking in the past.   Trevor Freeman  22:15 Bryan's point there about systems level planning really resonates deeply with all the things we've been talking about this year, because none of these challenges exist in isolation. And systems thinking and systems planning is really this important concept or this important ethos, and something I actually want to explore further. And so keep your eyes open for an episode on that sometime in 2026 so as we wrap up this first of two holiday rewind episodes. The few themes keep rising to the surface. There's the accelerating pace of electrification. No question that we're seeing electrification continue to move forward, and to do so at an increasing pace, despite some bumps in the road, and we're going to see that. We're going to see two steps forward and one step back. But I think we're still seeing an increased pace of electrification, we are seeing the importance of modernization, of moving the technologies that we use to monitor and manage the grid forward in terms of, you know, catching up to where we are with modern technology. And we're also seeing the need for long-term thinking as Canada transitions towards a, you know, low or no carbon future towards net zero as we electrify our lives, we need to have that long term vision in mind, whether we're talking about the future of buildings, upgrading the grid, embracing distributed energy resources or navigating some new and emerging technologies. There's one truth that kind of stood out, and it's something I've said before, but I really want to make sure everyone kind of sits with this and appreciates it. Is that the energy transition is not something that is going to happen? It's not something that's in the future. It is something that's happening right now. We are in the midst of the energy transition. It's not going to be over tomorrow. It's not one of these things that happens very quickly, but we are living it right now. We are seeing it all around us, and it's something that I'm really excited about, talking on this podcast about and with our fantastic guests, and I'm glad to have all of you along with us on that journey. So join us in two weeks for the second part of our holiday rewind series. On that one, we're going to turn the spotlight towards renewable energy and revisit some of the conversations that inspired us the most in 2025 until then, from all of us at think energy, warm wishes for the holiday season. I hope you're staying warm and safe and have a great December and thanks for listening. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].

Waves, river currents, and tidal turbines could help power Canada's clean energy future. Trevor speaks with Elisa Obermann, Executive Director at Marine Renewables Canada, about the promise of marine energy and how countries like Canada are pursuing its potential. They explore how emerging 'blue energy' technologies complement solar and wind, support coastal and Indigenous communities, and move us toward a more sustainable, diverse net-zero grid.   Related links    Marine Renewables Canada: https://marinerenewables.ca/ Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy (FORCE): https://fundyforce.ca/ canmetENERGY: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/science-data/science-research/research-centres/canmetenergy Yuquot Wave Energy Project: https://barkley.ca/project/yuquot-wave-energy-project/ Blind Channel Tidal Energy Demonstration Centre: https://onlineacademiccommunity.uvic.ca/primed/blind-channel/ European Marine Energy Center (EMEC): https://www.emec.org.uk/ Canadian Hydrokinetic Turbine Test Centre: (CHTTC): http://www.chttc.ca/ Elisa Obermann on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/elisa-obermann-07469245/    Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114    Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en      To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. I have a really great conversation for you today, but before I get to that, I think it's worth a minute or two of time to revisit some first principles people approach the energy conversation from all different backgrounds and angles, and I think it's good to make sure that we're all on the same page when it comes to some foundational knowledge before we dive into our topic today, the thing that I want to quickly review is electricity generation. Now don't worry, we're not going to get into an advanced physics level of knowledge on this, but I just want to quickly refresh everyone on the basics. And by the same token, to all of you advanced physics folks out there that are listening, please forgive me if I'm slightly off on a detail or two, as long as I don't mess up the core foundational information. So for the most part, the electricity that we use is primarily generated by spinning a coil of wire around a magnet, or inversely, spinning a magnet inside a coil of wire that causes electrons to move, and that flow of electrons is electricity. For the most part, that combination of coiled wire and magnets and a spinning motion is what makes most of our electricity. There is one major exception to this, which is solar power that doesn't involve spinning anything. But other than that, our major electricity sources utilize that spinning motion, and I'm not including hydrogen fuel cells here as a major source of electricity. So let's keep going with this spinning idea. Then the next question is, how do we make things spin? One very common method is heat. Let's say you burn something, coal or natural gas, for example, which creates heat. You then use that heat to boil water, which makes steam, which you can push at high pressure against turbine blades to make them spin. It's as simple as that. The problem is, burning things creates harmful emissions, which are causing climate change. You can also generate heat with non emitting sources, and a major one, especially here in Ontario, is nuclear power, splitting atoms in a controlled environment, a nuclear reaction generates heat and then the process is the same as previously described. So as complex as a nuclear reactor is its main purpose when it comes to electricity generation, is simply making heat so we can boil water and create steam, et cetera, other than heat. The other way to make things spin is to utilize naturally occurring kinetic energy. So that means something that's already happening out there that carries a lot of force that can push a turbine blade. This would include wind energy, so using the force of the wind to turn large wind turbines and hydro electricity, which uses water being pulled downhill by gravity, so a flowing river or a large dam to turn that turbine the same end results that spinning motion, but no need to create heat to get there. We're almost done with the science lesson, so just bear with me for another few seconds as we think about reducing our carbon emissions, finding ways to generate electricity that don't require burning fossil fuels is really important. Solar definitely has a role to play, but we also need more emissions free ways to spin things. I mentioned some of the more traditional ones, like solar and wind energy, but today's conversation is about some lesser known, emerging methods, which are covered by the term marine renewable energy generation. Phew, it was a long walk to get there, but we finally got here. All of that is to tee up my conversation today with Elisa Obermann, the Executive Director of Marine Renewables Canada. Marine Renewables Canada is the National Association for tidal wave and river current energy in addition to offshore wind. But it's those first three generation strategies that I am particularly interested in as non mainstream ways to spin things. These technologies are known as blue energy, but are often overshadowed by the more common renewable energies that we talked about, solar and wind generation. So I'm really excited to chat with Elisa to shed some light on them. Today. Elisa has served as the executive director of marine renewables Canada since 2015 she's a founding member of both the Electricity Alliance Canada and the Canadian Council on Renewable Electricity. She has also worked for several other organizations that focus on clean technology, tidal energy and the broader renewable energy sector, including Sustainable Development Technology Canada, the Fundy Ocean Research Center for Energy. Which you'll hear us talk about today as force and Nova scotia's Department of Energy. Elisa Obermann, welcome to the show.   Elisa Obermann  05:07 Hi. Thank you very much for having me.   Trevor Freeman  05:09 So, let's start off kind of with the basics. Elisa, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into this pretty unique space in the energy sector that we're going to dive into a little bit more.   Elisa Obermann  05:22 Sure. So I decided after doing my undergrad, so I'm going kind of way back here, all the way back. Yeah, exactly. I did a degree, a bachelor's degree in English, but I really wanted to get involved in something that would help me do more for the environment, play a role in the future. So I decided to go back to school to do a public policy degree. And the first internship I had was with Nova Scotia Department of Energy, and it was actually on the oil and gas side of things, but my thinking was, well, this will get me eventually to where I want to go and working more in renewables. And that's essentially exactly what happened. And so I started working more and more there on renewable energy. Then started working on the province's marine renewable energy strategy. So it really kind of got me into this kind of path of, you know, working on climate change and renewable energy. And the other thing I will also say is that I grew up in Maine and really close to the ocean, and so after university, I moved to Toronto for a while, and I thought to myself, like, I really just want to do something that takes me back to the ocean. So this really combines both kind of goals I had for myself, in terms of working to protect and help the environment, and then also staying close to the ocean.   Trevor Freeman  06:35 Yeah. I mean, that makes a ton of sense. It's interesting. I talked to a lot of people, obviously, and often the question of career path comes up, and it's funny to see the things that we're passionate about in those early days, no one could guess how that comes to fruition later on in our careers. And you know, I've got some similar stories of wanting to save the world when I was in university and having no idea how the different paths that that would take me on. So great to hear your story. Thanks for sharing that. Tell us now a little bit about your organization, marine renewable Canada, and you know, kind of its vision for how marine renewables will fit into the energy sector.   Elisa Obermann  07:10 Yeah. So marine renewables Canada is a National Association. We're headquartered in Halifax, but we do work across the country, and actually, our beginnings were in British Columbia, really starting around like wave energy, small scale projects. One of our founding members at the time was BC Hydro. We now have over 200 members, and that's really grown just in the past couple years, because our focus is on wave, tidal, river current energy, but also offshore wind. And so there's been a lot of excitement, especially on the East Coast, around offshore wind, but today I'll probably focus mostly on kind of those water resources and how we're working to advance those. Our mandate is really to champion the sector, help with advocacy, engagement, education, and also expand market opportunities. So obviously we do a lot of work around enabling policies that help open up that market, both here, but also globally. But ultimately, what we'd like to see is that marine renewables is playing a role in getting Canada to net zero and right now. I mean, it's a more emerging technology, if you look at wave, tidal and river, but there's a lot of potential for it to play a big role.   Trevor Freeman  08:20 Yeah, so great. And that's a great segue into kind of the next thing I want to talk about on this show. We often talk about, let's call them the more traditional or conventional or well known energy sources, so our kind of traditional fossil fuel combustion, our other renewable sources, solar and wind, and even offshore wind, I think people have a sense of what that is. I mean, wind energy is the same on land as off land. It's just in a different location. But tell us about the types of marine energy that you're talking about. You just referenced some of them here, you know, take us back to basics. What are we talking about when we talk about marine energy?   Elisa Obermann  08:56  Yeah, absolutely. So I would categorize it as four main kinds, but I also will mention that there are some that our association doesn't cover. And I will touch on those, sure, primarily. So we focus on tidal energy. And when I say tidal I don't mean barrages or dams, which were kind of a more prevalent technology, you know, decades ago. What I'm talking about is what we call tidal stream and so essentially, if you think of, you know, what wind turbines look like, it's essentially a wind turbine, but in the water, so it can be developed or deployed incrementally, which is a lot different than what you think of when you think of a dam that has, you know, very long lasting effects. The idea behind title is that you can install it incrementally if there's concerns and with any kind of impacts to the environment, or concerns with, you know, the technology failing, or anything like that, you are able to remove it, or, you know, have maintenance on it fairly quickly. Wave Energy is another one that we focus on. It's the technology is not as far along as tidal in terms of, you know, getting to a commercial state. And there are many different. Different types of concepts, still for Wave technologies, but essentially, they can be placed near shore or further offshore. One of the things that's been, I think, kind of cool to think about is there's discussions around and some prototype type projects around using wave energy to power, for example, oil and gas platforms and doing that kind of, you know, pairing to help decarbonize that sector's energy use, river current. So I will say a lot of people think marine like that doesn't, you know, make sense rivers, you know, not by the ocean. And the reason we look at it and categorize it as a Marine renewable energy is that the technology is very similar to title, and so it's essentially the same technology that's used, except that it is unidirectional. So when you think of the flow of river, it's going one way, whereas tides, the technology would be used as a bi directional because the tides are going in and out. So but otherwise very, very similar. And then we actually also cover offshore wind, which is, of all of those, you know, a more mature marine renewable technology. And as I said, I think probably today I'll talk mostly about some of the earlier stage technologies. Our association doesn't cover a few others, and I just feel like they're worth mentioning, just because they're kind of cool. Also, floating solar is one that is gaining, you know, I think some more popularity, and also people are looking more what you know, how much of an impact it could have, ocean current technology, which would be kind of further offshore, and ocean thermal. And you can imagine, Ocean Thermal hasn't really been talked about a lot in Canada, because you have colder waters. Like, the technology just isn't right, the right fit.   Trevor Freeman  11:35 Got you okay? So I want to, I've got a whole whack of questions I want to understand, make sure I'm understanding the technology correctly. So let's start with Tidal. For Tidal, obviously, just a quick refresher back to, let's say grade 10 science for our listeners. Tides kind of come in and come out. The water moves up and moves down. You're utilizing that flow of water, that movement of water, which happens twice a day. Is that, right? Twice a day, every 12 hours?   Elisa Obermann  12:02 Yep,   Trevor Freeman  12:02 Good, yeah, just making sure I remember my grades and science most part. And you're using that movement of water to turn turbines that are underwater. Describe those for us. Is that, like you kind of related it to wind energy? Is it like a big wind turbine underwater? Does it look the same? Is it similar to that?   Elisa Obermann  12:20 Yeah, I mean, there's still a few different concepts, but essentially, yeah, that's how you could picture in your mind. I will say some are bottom mounted. So as an example, like it might have a gravity base and be anchored to the well, not even anchored. It could just be the weight of it is holding it to the sea floor. Some of the newer tidal technologies are floating. They're kind of like, on a pontoon type device, and they will have kind of the, you know, the turbines connected to that. But essentially, they're, you know, either way, whether it's floating or seabed mounted, it would be capturing the kinetic energy of the tides   Trevor Freeman  12:54 Gotcha, okay. And then for the run of river ones, it's, it's kind of the same thing. Water is flowing. Typically, rivers are flowing downhill, so that water is always moving, and you've got a turbine in there taking advantage of the fact that that water is moving in a situation where there isn't a dam that's using sort of gravity flow. It's, but it's the same idea. It's, it's flowing water that's turning a turbine. Yes, exactly. So then the one that I'm, I'm sort of not entirely clear on, is waves, like, what is the mechanism there? Is it just the same thing? You're just putting it in a location where there's prevailing waves generated by wind or current or whatever.   Elisa Obermann  13:28 Yeah, that one, I will say, is harder to describe, because I've mentioned there's many different concepts for it, but essentially, if you think of waves like so one concept, maybe this will be easy to visualize, would be more of like a buoy type device, and so it's capturing the height of the wave, like that energy coming through. There's some also called like an oyster. So it opens, like the device opens and closes to capture kinetic energy from waves as well. There's a number of different devices when it comes to to wave energy. And I will also say, depending on where, whether it's closer to shore or further offshore, that the strength of the energy from waves is also can be different too. .   Trevor Freeman  14:08 Yeah. So that's actually what, exactly what my next question was is, how far offshore are we placing these things? Are they like, right at the shore's edge? Are they visible? Are they kind of, you know, whatever, 100 metre out? 500 metres out?   Elisa Obermann  14:22 Yeah, in terms of for TIDAL, I mean, it would be closer to shore, but not necessary. I mean, still quite far out. It's not like you're looking at it and you're, you know, few 100 feet away, further. As an example, like in Nova Scotia, the Bay of Fundy has had several tidal deployments, and it depends on where you are. So there was one that was in a area called southwest Nova Scotia, where, if you were in the harbor, there in Briar Island, is where it was. You could see it right there, like it was very, very close, whereas those being deployed further out. So it really just depends on the location, but also potential impacts to other users. You know. Fisheries, all those kinds of things are considered when they're they're just determining location.   Trevor Freeman  15:04 Got you. And one last question, I apologize, I'm totally going off script here, but you've got me all excited about this, and lots of questions. How is this connected back to land? So you must be running cables, you're generating electricity, you're bringing that back to land, and there's some sort of transformation or storage. It's connected to the provincial grid. Like, what's the connection back to the grid look like?   Elisa Obermann  15:28 Exactly, yeah. So you're exactly right. There will be subsea cables that these devices will be connected to. They'll run to shore. Typically, they'll be connected to a substation, which then would be, you know, transmitting that energy electricity, I should say, to a distribution system or the transmission system. So as an example, force has pretty impressive subsea cables that have already been laid about 64 megawatts capacity with those and they built a substation at that site that then connects to the transmission system.   Trevor Freeman  15:59 Cool, very cool, awesome. Thank you for that. Thanks for entertaining my sort of nerdy curiosity there. So tell us about the benefits. Why is this something that the energy sector should be looking at? What are the benefits of this type of generation?   Elisa Obermann  16:14 Good question, and we get asked a lot. I will say, you know, why are we looking at Marine Renewables when we have solar and onshore wind and hydro that are proven and come at a lower cost, but we know we're going to need more electricity, and so the way we look at we can't put all of our eggs in one basket. We need energy diversity. But also marine renewables, such as Tidal and waves, they have some attributes that other renewables don't, so they can be very complementary to other renewable energy, and actually help to bring on other sources of renewables because of that, you know the synergies that they have. So as an example, and you mentioned it at the beginning, tidal is predictable, so we know when the tides are going to come in and out. We can schedule that. I mean, for energy system planning, we would know even 100 years from now, when exactly is that tide coming out? When is it going to be at peak? And so that's one that is very helpful in terms of reliability, predictability, all those things with waves also, I will say, I mean, they're very similar in some ways, because they are created by wind. So it's kind of the same concept, if you think of bringing it onto the grid, but there is an ability to forecast them further out. And one of the interesting things with wave energy, British Columbia had done some work, and I will say, I think it was the University of Victoria A while ago, just looking at the timing of them and when they're the most strong and powerful and consistent. And they found that they were strongest during peak times, like when BC would really need more power, so in the winter, during stormier times, that kind of thing. So those resources can be a very good match with other resources that maybe, you know, sometimes they they're not generating as much power at a given time.   Trevor Freeman  17:56 Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of gets into to where I wanted to go next is, how does this work alongside wind and solar and sort of traditional hydro? You kind of answered that a little bit. We know that we need to grow our greater our energy demand is going to grow. You know, here in Ontario, we're looking at a 75% increase. Across Canada, we're looking at sort of two to three times the growth, and especially clean energy. What sort of percentage or how much of a foothold Do you think marine renewable energy has the capability of meeting of that?   Elisa Obermann  18:30 Yeah, that's a great question. So I will tell you now, I don't have the numbers for that, but I will this January, February. We're actually working on a sector vision, looking exactly at that, like the capacity scenarios, what could be feasible, but really trying to take realistic view of you know, this is how much electricity wave, tidal and river and offshore wind could contribute. But what I will say is that when it comes to Tidal, for example, there has been some resource assessments done in the past. Canada has 40,000 megawatts of potential tidal energy, and that's looking at, you know, the best locations. So it's technical potential, but it's, it's also looking at just feasibility in terms of locations, and what might be, you know, close to grids, that kind of thing. Wave energy is between, I think, 10,000 to 16,000 megawatts, looking at both Pacific and Atlantic coasts and with river current still in early phases of doing some of this work. But Natural Resources Canada can met energy, and also the National Research Council did a pretty extensive resource assessment, and it was around 340 gigawatts of river current, I will say, I mean, that's a lot, right? So there's some factors there that are still, you know, they're working on, trying to understand, so ice, for example, because where rivers, you know, some of the strongest river resources are in areas that are in northern Canada, maybe not feasible. So there's still some more work there to determine what's actually feasible for these technologies.   Trevor Freeman  19:59 Are there this kind of just jogged a question for me. Are there other parts of the world where this technology is, let's say, more mature and greater use, or is Canada kind of leading the fray here, like, where are we compared to other parts of the world?   Elisa Obermann  20:15 So I would say Canada has been pretty well known as a global leader in marine renewable energy, and we started this in kind of the early 2000s starting to look at the resources and the technologies and how we could lead. But this was alongside some other countries that have been also doing that work. So the United Kingdom, Scotland, in particular, France and a number of other European countries. The United States has also put quite a bit of investment in R and D technologies, but the UK probably is the furthest along. And one of the reasons for that, and this is different than what we've done in Canada, is they have targeted funding and programs to really support the sector where I find in Canada, there's been, you know, a lot of great supports by both provincial and federal governments, but most of the time we're competing like, there's not a, you know, a specific program for just marine renewable technology. So I think that's had a bit of an impact even on interacting investment here.   Trevor Freeman  21:13 Gotcha, yeah. So you're trying to fit your projects into a bigger project funding envelope that could cover a bunch of different sort of energy related projects, and you're having to say, Yeah, look, ours fits in here too. Is that fair to say?   Elisa Obermann  21:24 Yeah, exactly, exactly. .   Trevor Freeman  21:27 Cool. Okay, I want to shift a little bit here. We often talk on the show about the sort of relationship between energy and society and communities. So what are some community benefits from marine renewable projects. Is this something that sort of has community ownership over it? Does the community get involved in these projects? Tell us a little bit about how that impacts kind of that local level?   Elisa Obermann  21:52 Yeah, I would say, from what we've seen so far, and this is just with, you know, very early demonstration projects, is that the local supply chain has benefited a lot. So there's been some studies showing that for both tidal and wave projects, you would be using probably about 60% local supply chain to build the project. And that's also just because the technology is massive, like you're not going to be shipping this. It's more cost effective to have most of the work done close to the site. And so as an example, again, Bay of Fundy projects that force to date, and the, you know, the research that force has been doing, and some of the R and D, I believe they've, they've used up to 500 local suppliers, or Canadian suppliers, so that's one of the biggest ones. But also just with local communities, there's been a number of things that we've also seen where they've been very engaged in some of these projects. I mean, obviously local businesses have but there are opportunities for local ownership. I think that the challenge right now is that there's still a lot of risk because the technologies aren't as mature as some others, and so some communities are more hesitant to buy into the projects. That said, there is a project in British Columbia, the Yuquot Wave Energy Project, where the Mowachaht/Muchalaht First Nation there is partnering very closely with a wave energy developer to move ahead with a wave technology that can help power their community. So there's all those kinds of things that I think make it attractive to communities, allows them to have some self sufficiency. And in the case of some of these northern, remote and coastal and indigenous communities, there's also that whole, you know, it's potentially displacing diesel in their community. So that's one of the drivers for them, marine renewables. There's been some, you know, studies around this as well showing that it would actually be lower cost than the diesel fuel that they're using in those communities. So there's that benefit as well.   Trevor Freeman  23:42 Gotcha. Yeah, actually, I've got a question here that I wanted to ask you, and so I'll skip to that one about the impact on especially remote indigenous communities that are not connected to the grid. I've had, actually, a few conversations on this show about how, how we go about helping remote and indigenous communities decarbonize getting off of local diesel generation. Are there other projects you mentioned one? Are there other examples of collaboration here? Do you see this as being sort of a relevant tool for that challenge?   Elisa Obermann  24:12 Yeah. So there's another one that I would also mention that I think is a great example again, University of Victoria in British Columbia had been spearheading what they called, it's the blind channel demonstration center. So Initially it started as working to help a, you know, it was like a remote eco kind of lodge become, you know, fully environmentally friendly, using marine renewables for electricity rather than diesel. But since then, they've actually evolved into more of an initiative to test and demonstrate title technologies there, given that it's a remote location, but working very closely with indigenous partners. And so what I think is cool about that is that it's helping indigenous communities to get involved, but not really requiring them to take on. And know, the risk of financing a project, maintaining a project, but it's giving them the opportunity to get the skills and expertise they would need to eventually, you know, bring Tidal or wave energy into their communities at a, you know, at a later date, when they feel more comfortable with the technology and also learn about how that technology impacts the environment and vice versa. Because I have found with communities like that's one of the things that they're most concerned about, is how, you know, how is this technology going to interact with fish or other marine life or the habitat? And so those kinds of smaller demonstrations really help, especially when they're, you know, hands on, and allow community members to be part of the demonstration.   Trevor Freeman  25:40 Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're doing my job for me here, Elisa, you're setting up all my questions perfectly. How does it impact, sort of local marine wildlife? What's the what ecological impact of these we're talking about, fairly complex machinery located in a marine environment. Is there an impact? Has that been studied? Is it comparable it's a sort of a traditional hydro electric dam. What is, what is the impact there?   Elisa Obermann  26:05 So there's been a lot of work in this area, and depending on the location of the project, and that's kind of the caveat I give with us, it can be easier to understand what the impact is. So as an example, in Scotland, I mentioned there's, they've done a lot of work with marine renewables. There's a test center there called the European Marine Energy Center, EMAC, and they have very high flow tidal sites, similar to what we have in Canada. And they're able to use cameras and other equipment to really see exactly what's happening at the site. And so a number of researchers, you know, over the last couple of decades, have been doing environmental monitoring, collecting data, and what we've seen to date is, for the most part, fish and marine life avoid these devices. There's also been research done on electromagnetic fields sound, but I think the biggest concern that people still have is collision with the devices, and what could happen there. Now, coming to Canada, we're in a bit of a different situation. So at the forest site in the Bay of Fundy, you know, there has been quite a bit of environmental monitoring and research done, but the water is very different than what you'd see in Scotland. At this site EMAC, where in the Bay of Fundy, there's a lot of sediment. It's very it's a higher flow site even. So there's, you know, a lot of turbulence, and the environmental monitoring equipment there that you know that exists, it just can't gather all of that information at the site like you can't use a camera and see exactly where fish may be going. So we can't say 100% no, there has been no, you know, fish collisions. What has been happening is that force and government of Canada and the Province of Nova Scotia, and I think also indigenous partners and some of the local researchers in Nova Scotia. So Acadia University, for example, have been partnering, and just recently announced a project to be able to develop those environmental monitoring systems that can work in the Bay of Fundy. And so those will be something, you know, once that's solved, that knowledge and those systems and that technology can be used anywhere in the world to give us a better idea of exactly what are those environmental interactions. But I will say to date, the body of research does show that there hasn't been any significant interactions at this point, but I'm always hesitant to say there hasn't been any, because we can't say that yet.   Trevor Freeman  28:21 Yeah, sure, fair enough. It kind of raises another question in my mind about even just servicing the equipment, or the longevity of the equipment. I mean, in a in a solar field, if you've got a bad panel, you go and you change a panel. A wind turbine, at the very least, is above ground. Not that it's easy to change a blade on a turbine. But what is it like servicing and maintaining the equipment when it's out in a marine environment and underwater? How easy is it? Or is that a challenge?   Elisa Obermann  28:51 Yeah, it's a very good point. It's definitely more challenging than onshore technologies, because you also have, you know, weather windows. So with Tidal, for example, even though you know what stage of the tide is in, plays a huge role in when they can go out and maintain or and service the equipment. And so that's one of the reasons these technologies bring in higher cost for the project overall. Obviously. The other thing I would also mention is just that with both tidal and wave like just depending on what if it's a floating technology versus seabed mounted also makes a difference. So what we've seen is some of these technologies are now evolving to be floating, and again, one of the reasons for that is this whole operations and maintenance piece, because it's obviously a lot easier to bring a vessel out there, get onto the pontoon and be able to service it, versus a whole diving operation, or ROV to go underwater to service it.   Trevor Freeman  29:48 Gotcha, yeah, tow it back to the dock and work on it at the dock.   Elisa Obermann  29:51 Yeah, awesome, exactly.   Trevor Freeman  29:52 Okay, let's switch gears a little bit here and talk about the policy, and let's say regulatory. Worry landscape around this. I've got a question here on funding coming up too, but as our listeners will know, and as you certainly know, energy is a very regulated sector, lots of policy around it. What are some of the policy challenges? Or are there policy challenges when it comes to deploying marine renewables?   Elisa Obermann  30:20 Yeah, I would say, because they're emerging technology, that's actually been one of the biggest challenges. So when we look at legislation in Canada, I mean, it never a lot of it's very old, right? So it never envisioned that there'd be these clean technologies coming up in the market that would they would need to govern and regulate. We have had a lot of challenges with the Fisheries Act, again, just because of that, it never envisioned that it would be regulating an emerging technology. And so, I mean, luckily with that, we did a lot of work with federal and provincial governments, and we have found a path forward that had been an issue in terms of, like the regulatory barriers being created by the legislation. The other one, I would say, is just these projects are small at the moment, right? So we're talking kilowatts, maybe a couple megawatts. And what we found is the, you know, just the regulatory efficiency is not necessarily there. So applying regulation will look at it just as the same scale as any type of project, you know, could be a very large project. So I think what you know, we would ask is that regulators consider the scale of the project and the regulatory processes and requirements should balance that scale of the project, you know, with what the requirements are.   Trevor Freeman  31:34 Yeah. Do you see a world where I'm gonna assume the answer is yes to this, but I'm gonna ask anyway, do you see a world where this is just another option that utilities and energy policy makers have in their toolbox as a way to procure clean energy, that this just becomes one of an item on the menu with solar and wind, et cetera? Are we gonna get to that point? Do you see that happening in the sort of near, medium term future.   Elisa Obermann  32:01 I think we can get to that point. But what it's going to require is that there are more deployments, more demonstrations, and regulators will really need to look at those early projects of exactly that demonstrations, and not treat them as commercial projects. And the reason I say this is because to get costs down so that they can be looked at in comparison to onshore and solar, we need to see a lot more deployment like when you think of a cost curve for any technology, you have to get to that scale and volume before the costs start coming down. It's some time before we get to that point, but it's absolutely possible. It just requires the right supports.   Trevor Freeman  32:38 Got you. On the funding side. We talked about this a little bit earlier, about how you're kind of using existing funding programs. There aren't necessarily dedicated programs for this kind of technology or these projects. Are there other funding sources, like, are you attracting investors into this? Is there, you know, more public money going into this? What's the funding structure around some of these projects?   Elisa Obermann  33:02 Yeah, so,  I think to date, a lot of developers have and when I say developers, I mean the technology and project developers. But with marine renewables, sometimes it ends up being one in the same, because technology developers end up being the ones developing their projects. I think a lot of them are looking for two things at this time, so something to cover capital costs. So grants, whatever it might be, and there has, there have been a number of funding programs that the federal government has applied that have been quite useful for that, and then they usually look for something on the back end of the project once it's built. So what I mean by that is feed in tariff, something to help with their return on investment. And that seems to be kind of the right recipe for investment certainty at the moment, the other thing that I think Canada's recently done that's very helpful for this sector are the investment tax credits. And so our hope is actually that those get extended, because right now, where the sector is, and this also comes into play for offshore wind, is that they end, you know, in that 2033 timeline, 2034 I can't remember, whereas a lot of these projects wouldn't be online at that point. And so we're looking for a bit of a longer runway there. And I think tax credits are a very good tool that can help, you know, with attracting investment for these projects.   Trevor Freeman  34:16 So looking ahead, I mean, you've kind of touched on this in a few different spots, but to sum it up, what's next on the horizon for this technology and these projects? Are we expecting kind of innovation on the technological side, or is the focus still on the sort of funding and regulatory side right now? What can we expect for those of us who are going to maybe keep an eye on this moving forward?   Elisa Obermann  34:40 Yeah, it's a bit of both, I will say. So I mentioned that the tidal sector was having some challenges with the Fisheries Act a number of years ago, and that really kind of created a lull in development, but also in investment attraction. As a result of that, federal and provincial governments established a Tidal Task Force to. Look at the exact issues around you know, where the barriers are with the Fisheries Act, and then the outcome of that has been a new path under the Fisheries Act to support projects. And so there are developers that will be going through that new or revised, staged approach, is what they've been calling it. Time will tell, obviously, if that process works, but from what we've heard from developers, it does give them more certainty, because it essentially covers the entire project, rather than going through a device by device by device approach. And so that's on the regulatory side. I think if that goes well, it will give a lot of confidence to private sector and developers that this can move ahead, but it will also ensure that regulators know that they have an approach that is working, but still having those safeguards to ensure that you know they're protecting the environment and safety of communities and others on the technology side. So it's kind of like they go together hand in hand. So I mean, once we get through that process, I think there'll be more deployments, and we'll see the ability to test more technologies improve them. But to date, and where we are with especially with tidal energy, think the technologies are in, you know, they're in further generation. So we're not first generation technology anymore, and they've come a long way, and some of that's been through deployments and demonstration in other countries, Scotland, for example. So what I would envision happening is seeing some of those technologies tested in Canada, and then being able to, you know, deploy more than one and then, you know, multi device development.   Trevor Freeman  36:31 Great. One fine, maybe final question, although I keep thinking of things as we talk here, but you know, obviously this is very focused on coastal regions. You've mentioned, BC and sort of Nova Scotia where you're based. Do you envision, especially on the river side of things? Do you envision this as a technology that can be deployed kind of even in the interior provinces? Like, are we going to see river marine renewables in Saskatchewan, for example, or Ontario, where I'm based? Like, are you having those conversations? Or are we like, we're not quite ready for that yet, because we're still working on the technology piece.   Elisa Obermann  37:03 Yeah, I'm so glad that you asked that, because that's part I actually have missed in some of this. So there have been river current technologies deployed in Manitoba already. So the University of Manitoba has the Canadian hydro kinetic turbine Test Center. I know it's a bit of a mouthful, but they have been working with a number of river current developers. They've had several successful demonstrations. And there are also some companies that are that have been members of ours, that have deployed in other areas of Canada as well. In the past, even in Quebec, there's been some deployments. And so I think when it comes to river, you know, one of the challenges is there's, well, it's not a challenge. There's a huge opportunity there. It's just not very well known. And there are things like the ice, I think people are concerned about it being potentially closer to shore, just like the navigational issues, things like that, fish passage is different than what you'd see in tidal so there hasn't been as much of a focus on that. So it's earlier stage in terms of kind of that some of those environmental and social questions, but the technology is, you know, very close to where you'd see title at this point.   Trevor Freeman  38:12 Got you very cool we have so as our listeners know, I work for Hydro Ottawa, and Hydro Ottawa, parent company, owns the run-of-the-river generation dam here, right in the center of Ottawa, Chaudière Falls, and it's really fascinating. Now, it's not the same technology, of course. It's a it's a run of the river gravity fed dam, but the complexity around so the North American eel is an endangered species that's particularly impacted by dams and the technologies that we've had to put in place for that. It's really fascinating. Just kind of, I'm rambling a bit here, but all the different pieces that come together to make what should be a fairly straightforward thing, like use water to spin turbine, it's so much more complex than that. So I can appreciate that as you branch out into new areas, new technologies or new deployments of that, all those new complexities have to be figured out and worked on. But glad to hear that that's in the future, that that's on the horizon, because I think this is great, and it'd be cool to see more of this.   Elisa Obermann  39:08 Yeah, agreed. We're hoping we're getting there. It's taken time. I think things haven't gone as quickly as we had hoped. But you know, there's been a lot of learnings, lessons learned that have fed into where we are now, and I think just with what we're seeing, you know, with with government support, but also communities getting more excited about it, we'll see some real progress in the coming years.   Trevor Freeman  39:30 Okay, Elisa, we always wrap up our interviews with a series of questions to our guests. Some people love them, some people feel like they're on the hot seat, but I'm going to dive in anyway and fire these at you. So what is a book that you've read recently that you think everyone should read?   Elisa Obermann  39:45 Haven't read this one recently, but it kind of changed my thinking on everything. And I loved it, "Sapiens", I thought was great just with kind of the, you know, the history of humankind, and just made me rethink a lot of the things that. In terms of how society is structured and why we do the things that we do. Thought it was great, and if people haven't read it, I would highly recommend,   Trevor Freeman  40:06 Yes, very cool. That's a great book, and you're not the first one to mention that on the show. That's awesome. So same question. But for a movie or a show.   Elisa Obermann  40:14 There's probably a few that I would recommend, but really, I think the one that struck me the most recently, and I haven't watched a lot of movies recently, so I'll also say that, but just in the past couple years, was "Barbie". I loved it. It actually surprised me that, like, I had this totally different impression of what it was going to be, and just the kind of, you know, the key messages and things that it brought out, I thought were great. Like it was, it was very well done.   Trevor Freeman  40:38 Yeah, absolutely. It was one of those kind of cultural things that which seemed like it was going to be just another movie, and then there was some buzz behind it. And it got to the point where we, like, we did a family outing to go and, like, watch that movie with our kids, who were kind of at about the age where they can start thinking about some of these things. So it was pretty fun.   Elisa Obermann  40:56 Yeah, we did the same. We all wore pink. We really got on the bandwagon. I but it's great because as adults, you know, there were some really important things in it, but then also kids could relate, like it was a fun movie for them. So, yeah, it was good.   Trevor Freeman  41:09 Yeah, absolutely. My kids spent a long time, and still it'll come up singing the I'm Just Ken song that happens around our house often that song comes up, which, you know, wears on you after a while. Okay, so it sounds like you travel a little bit. So if someone offers you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Elisa Obermann  41:28 There's lots of places I would like to go, but I think probably Greece is where I would choose to go. I mean, I've been to Europe quite a bit for work and just also, you know, for fun. But my daughter has been saying for a really long time that she wants to go to Greece. She's only 10, so I've also kind of wondered where she got this idea, but I've also always wanted to go. So I think that would be my, my first choice.   Trevor Freeman  41:51 Very cool. I my wife and I honeymooned in Greece. It's a long time ago, but we had had a great time. It's gorgeous.   Elisa Obermann  41:56 Oh, amazing.   Trevor Freeman  41:58 Who is someone that you admire?   Elisa Obermann  41:59 That would probably be one of the tougher ones of these questions. Well, I'll say so generally, when I think about this kind of question, it's like, what are the kind of characteristics or qualities of someone that I would admire? And so I often look at how other women are, you know, conducting themselves, working in business world or in politics or whatnot. And I think what I admire most in some of those women is just the fact that they lift other women up. They're not afraid to be who they are and take a stand on things they really believe in. I think something I also really admire are women that are willing to take risks to build their business, and also in times of you know, where there's challenges or conflicts taking the high road. And so with all that said, you know, when I think about this, and I don't know if this sounds too cliche, but I think Michelle Obama's great, like when she said, 'When they go low, you go high', I just thought that was such an important message. And I actually share that with my daughter all the time when she's having trouble in school. I'm like, think of it this way. So she is a woman that I really admire. I think she's just done some wonderful things for women and just for people in general.   Trevor Freeman  43:08 Yeah, absolutely. And again, you're not the first one to mention that on the show, and I don't think that's because it's cliche. I think it's because you're right, absolutely fascinating person and leader, and just the strength of character is very evident, for sure. So, yeah, great answer. So final question, what's something about the energy sector that you're particularly excited about?   Elisa Obermann  43:29 Well, I would say, I mean, things are moving quite quickly, but also not never quick enough, yeah, and, but I think we have a lot to be excited about. So when I think about when I started my career in the energy sector, we were literally just starting to talk about renewable energy like it was a new thing, and things have evolved quite a bit since then, obviously, but in Atlantic Canada, where I'm based, so I'm in Nova Scotia, one of the things we've seen just in the past number of years has been An incredible evolution to a lot of projects being indigenous owned, indigenous LED. And I just think that's amazing so, you know, and I think that's going to continue. And it just shows, you know, that these communities are taking a lead. They're interested in ensuring that we're using clean energy, and it's also empowering them to, you know, have that ownership be able to provide investment to these projects, but it's been a big change. And so what I'm looking forward to, I guess, is what I'm saying here is that that continues, and we see more indigenous led projects, more indigenous participation in those projects, whether it be ownership, but also we've been actually working with a lot of indigenous businesses and suppliers that can get involved. And I think that will really change the energy sector. Actually, it's a lot different model from what we thought about, you know, few decades ago.   Trevor Freeman  44:49 Yeah, absolutely, I think. And again, it comes up so often on the show, the idea that there's the technological side of energy, but the societal side, and that interaction with the actual. Well stakeholders in local communities and indigenous communities. And you know, the people who are most impacted by this from a usage of energy perspective, but also a production and generation perspective. And of course, the in between, which is the transmission and distribution side of things, that's where the really interesting stories happen, and the opportunities for better collaboration and improving how we do things certainly happen. So I'm totally on the same page as you.   Elisa Obermann  45:25 Yeah, I think at the end, I always think of this like everything in the end is about people so and there's that factor that we we sometimes lose in all of this, but in the end, it comes down to the people who are involved or impacted.   Trevor Freeman  45:38 Absolutely. Elisa, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. It's been great to learn more about this sector, which doesn't have enough attention on it. So happy to kind of have you explain to us and talk us through some of the exciting things that are happening. Really appreciate it.   Elisa Obermann  45:52 Yeah, no. Thank you so much for the opportunity and the time. And like you said, a lot of people don't know about the sector, so I really appreciate the you know, the time spent with you to chat a little more about it. Thank you   Trevor Freeman  46:02 For sure. We'll check back in, maybe in a year or two, and see kind of how, how far things have come.   Elisa Obermann  46:07 Yeah, that'd be great. I'd appreciate that.   Trevor Freeman  46:09 Awesome. Thanks. Elisa, take care.   Elisa Obermann  46:11 Thank you.   Trevor Freeman  46:13 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review, it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].  

Hydropower is one of the oldest sources of renewable energy, powering Canada's first electric lights in 1881 and providing clean energy to six out of ten homes and businesses today. Ontario's north leads its next chapter. Trevor sums up how new hydro projects with First Nations transform remote communities, reduce diesel reliance, and support reconciliation. With billions invested in refurbishing plants and expanding the grid, it's a story of clean energy, collaboration, and Canada's sustainable future.   Related links   ●       Electrifying Canada's remote communities with QUEST Canada (thinkenergy episode 143): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/ ●       Watay Power Project: https://www.wataypower.ca/   ●       Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114   ●       Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod - Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back to think energy. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman, and today we're shifting our lens to the north. Across North America, we are seeing a resurgence of hydro power, and that includes here in Ontario, where I'm located, this province is looking to this long standing generation method to power Canada's growing and energy starved northern communities first. Let's take a quick look back at history. Canada's first electric lights were actually powered by hydro power. Back in 1881 a small hydro electricity plant in Sherbrooke, Quebec lit up the night and sparked a clean energy story that's still unfolding today, from those earliest River power lights to today, where we see more than 200 hydro stations generating over 60% of Canada's electricity and about 90% of our renewable power. Hydro power remains backbone of our clean energy system and powers six out of 10 homes and businesses. It's reliable, it's cost effective, and unlike solar wind, which can be intermittent, water, provides a steady stream of power pretty much 24/7 some plants have even been operating for more than a century. But according to water power Canada, because we've been relying on this source for so long, there is actually a lot of untapped potential that can be realized by refurbishing and modernizing our older facilities, not to mention developing new ones. We could significantly expand clean capacity, which would help us move closer to our net zero goals. As I've said before on the show, we need every tool in the toolbox, and expanding hydro power is one of those tools. So let's have a look at the North American resurgence of hydropower across the continent, there is a renewed focus on this source as a stable, long term solution to rising energy demand. Even the tech sector is taking notice. In July 2025 Google announced a $3 billion deal to secure hydro power from two US facilities in Pennsylvania through Brookfield asset management. It is the largest corporate clean energy agreement of its kind, which is a signal of how essential reliable renewable power has become. In this digital age, we need something to power these giant AI data centers, and these corporations are looking for something that's reliable and clean. The hydropower sites will be upgraded and relicensed under the agreement, and Google also intends to expand the deal into other regions of the US, Midwest and mid Atlantic, where it's investing $25 billion in new data centers. This deal signals a shift in corporate energy procurement, from simply buying renewable energy credits to offset their emissions to directly investing in specific, large scale, long duration infrastructure deals to power businesses. Of course, this definitely raises questions about the implications for how the grid and energy markets may evolve as demand in the tech and business sector continues to change and grow. That's something we'll explore at a different time. While Google's deal is driven by data and growth. Ontario's story is being shaped by geography, reconciliation and regional development. So let's have a look to the north. Like we said we would when electricity grids were first built, many northern and remote communities were left out because connecting them wasn't seen as practical or affordable. I talked about this with Gemma Pinchon from Quest Canada about a year ago on this show. Have a listen if you haven't already. With small populations spread across vast distances, it was considered too costly to run transmission lines that far north. So while the rest of the country was plugged into their provincial grids, many of these communities were left to rely on local diesel generation, a decision that might have made economic sense at the time, but definitely isn't equitable and not great for the environment. Thankfully, we're seeing some movement in this area. New investments and partnerships are changing how energy is produced and shared, and Ontario is turning once again, to our water power routes, but this time, it's doing it differently. This year, the Ontario government announced several new partnerships with First Nations that are changing the way clean energy projects take shape, emphasizing shared ownership, community leadership and lasting local benefits. New hydro developments in the north are being co created with First Nations who've lived alongside these rivers for generations. So let's have a look at some specifics. In July, the province announced plans for two new large scale hydro electric stations in northern Ontario, the Nine Mile rapids project on the Abitibi River and the Grand Rapids project on the Mattagami. Together, these could generate up to 430 megawatts of clean electricity that's enough to power. Nearly half a million homes. This is the province first large scale expansion of hydro electricity facilities in decades. What makes these projects truly historic is who's at the table. The stations will be co developed with the Taykwa Tagamu Nation and the Moose Cree First Nation, marking a shift towards shared ownership and long term community benefit. It's a model of collaboration that intertwines energy expansion with economic reconciliation, and this is just part of a larger effort. Ontario has also committed $4.7 billion to refurbish and expand existing hydro electric facilities across the province, from Northern Ontario to Niagara Cornwall and all the way out east. Together, these upgrades could add another 5000 megawatts of reliable clean power. It's a move that fits squarely within Ontario's long term plan to meet rising demand in the north with reliable low carbon power. The IESO, our system operator, predicts northern Ontario's demand for electricity will increase by 81% by 2050, higher than the provincial average. Of course, generating electricity is only half the story, as we've talked about before. It needs to reach the people in the industries that need it to make that happen, Ontario is working with transmission partners to build 1000s of kilometers of new power lines across the north. A prime example is Watay Power, the largest indigenous led grid connection project in Ontario's history. It's 1800 kilometers of transmission lines will connect more than 18,000 people across 16 remote First Nation communities to the provincial grid for the first time, ending decades of dependence on diesel. These grid expansions are also laying the groundwork for future economic development, especially in the mineral rich Ring of Fire region. The province recently signed a 39 and a half million dollar community partnership agreement with the Wabequie First Nation to support infrastructure early works and an all season road that will unlock access to critical minerals essential for EV batteries and clean technologies. Hopefully, this is a sign that we're seeing a real shift in how Canada views its north, not just as a remote region, but as a cornerstone of the country's future. The federal government is linking energy development, mining and national security in a way that we haven't seen in decades. There's renewed investment in hydro and transmission projects, plans to tap into critical minerals for the clean economy and a growing military infrastructure to reinforce sovereignty in the Arctic. It's all part of a bigger effort to power the north, protect it and ensure the communities who live there share the benefits of its growth. So what does all this mean? Ontario's investments aren't just about electricity. They're about sovereignty, sustainability and self determination. They represent a vision for Canada's north, where the local power generation, indigenous leadership and economic opportunity grow together. Still, there are important questions ahead that we'll all be watching. How will the province balance clean growth with ecological protection? How can partnerships ensure that the benefits of these projects are lasting and equitable for both the province and First Nations leading this work on their own traditional lands? In the end, the real energy transformation isn't just about megawatts. It's also about connection and making sure that we're smart about how we grow and expand our grid and our communities. Thanks for checking in. We'll chat next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think =energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].

Trevor reconnects with his former professor, Dr. Rupp Carriveau from the University of Windsor, to explore how Southern Ontario's agriculture and energy sectors intersect. From powering greenhouses and managing massive industrial demand to reimagining aging wind farms and testing "atomic agriculture," together they unpack how innovation, AI, and new tech are reshaping Canada's clean energy future. Listen to episode 164 of thinkenery.    Related links Dr. Rupp Carriveau on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rupp-carriveau-b4273823/ Environmental Energy Institute: https://www.environmentalenergyinstitute.com/ Turbulence and Energy Lab: http://www.turbulenceandenergylab.org/ Offshore Energy and Storage Society: https://www.osessociety.com/    Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114    Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en      To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. Today's episode brings us back to a few elements of my own personal history. Now you'll have to bear with me for a minute or two while I dive into my past in order to properly set up today's conversation, I grew up in southwestern Ontario, in and just outside the border town of Windsor, Ontario. Now for those of you not familiar with this area, Windsor and its surroundings are the most southern part of Canada. It might surprise you to know that Windsor is at the same latitude as Northern California and Rome, Italy. You can imagine that after growing up in Windsor and then living in various places around the globe, when I finally settled down here in Ottawa, adjusting to the more stereotypical Canadian winters of this northern capital, took a little bit of getting used to Windsor is so far south when you cross the border to its neighboring American city, Detroit, Michigan, you actually travel north. Have a look at a map if this seems to defy logic, but I promise you, it's true. This is the area that I grew up in. It's also where I went to school and got my engineering degree. More on that in a minute. Now, if you've ever driven down to the southwestern end of the 401 going past London and Chatham, you will notice two things. First, it is flat, very flat. You will not see a meaningful Hill anywhere in sight. I often joke with people that I used to toboggan when we did get any meaningful snow off of highway overpasses, because that was the only hill we could find. I was only partly joking, and I have indeed tobogganed off of said overpasses in my young and foolish days. But that is a story for another time. That brings us to the second thing you'll see, which is wind turbines. A lot of wind turbines. They are seemingly everywhere, stretching as far as you can see, southwestern Ontario is a hotbed of wind energy generation. Finally, a hint at why I'm going on about this part of the province on an energy podcast. But before we get into it, there's one other thing to touch on, and that is the fact that this area is also home to a large number of greenhouses growing produce year-round, as well as manufacturing. Windsor and its surrounding area is the automotive capital of Canada, with a number of plants from major car companies, as well as a supporting ecosystem of parts manufacturers. Incidentally, that's where I started my career, working as an environmental engineer for one of the automakers, and many members of my family have also worked or still work in that industry. The reason I bring up greenhouses in the auto industry is because they have some very high energy demand profiles, and that is how we get for me going on nostalgically about the area I grew up in, to our conversation today, I recently caught up with one of my engineering professors, Dr Rupp Carriveau, about the work that he and his colleagues have been doing that ties all of this together. And I thought it would be great to have him on the show to talk about that. Dr. Carriveau is the director of the Environmental Energy Institute and co-director of the Turbulence and Energy Lab and the CO lead of AGUwin at the University of Windsor. Back in the day, he was my fluid dynamics professor. But today, he balances his teaching duties with research into energy systems futures and advanced agricultural systems. He is a founder of the offshore energy and storage society, a recipient of the University Scholar Award, and has been named to Canada's clean 50 for his contributions to clean capitalism. Dr Rupp Carriveau, welcome to the show.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  03:59 Trevor, great to be here. Thanks.   Trevor Freeman  04:01 Yeah. So, Rupp, the last time we chatted, well, so you and I chatted a couple weeks ago, but before that, the last time that you and I interacted, I was in third year university. You were my fluid dynamics Prof. So, in addition to your professorial duties, you're now the director of the environmental Energy Institute at the University of Windsor. So, there's two questions around that. First off, how did you end up going from my fluid dynamics prof a number of years ago, probably close to 20 years ago now, to running this institute? And tell us a little bit about what the Institute does.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  04:40 Sure. Though. So, thanks. Yeah, and very memorable Trevor, because I, you know, I remember you well. And, yeah, that was, that was a very nice class that we had. I remember, well, I remember your colleagues too.   Trevor Freeman  04:54 If there's one thing I do, well, it's, it's be memorable, and you can take that however you want.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  04:58 That is, that is. Something to be said for that. Yeah, thanks for that question. So I should point out that in addition to EEI, I am a co-director in the Turbulence and Energy Lab, which is really where all of the EEI initiatives have started from, that's a lab that I co supervise with Dr David Ting in mechanical engineering and the nuts and bolts, the very serious engineering side of things, comes out of the Turbulence and Energy Lab. EEI kind of came about to handle topics that were, frankly speaking, less interesting to Dr Ting. So, things that push more, a little bit more into policy wider systems looks at things as opposed to, you know, pure thermodynamics and energy efficiency type pursuits, which underpin a lot of the EEI policy pieces, but are sort of beyond the scope of what turbulence and energy lab does. So those two things, and then more recently, actually, I'm co lead on, AGUwin, which is like a center of excellence, emerging Center of Excellence at the University of Windsor. So, Agriculture U Windsor is a group of about 40 professors that do work in agriculture in some shape or form. And we've, we've, we've taken to organizing that movement in seeking sort of group funding proposals, developing curriculum and organized sort of platforms to help industry in agriculture. And it's, it's really taking off, which I'm really excited about my extremely hard-working colleagues and CO lead, Isabel Barrett-Ng, she in particular, has been really driving a lot of really cool initiatives ahead and all the people that work with us. So, yeah, lots, lots happening at the University since I saw you last. But you know, time has a way of helping with that, people find ways to find efficiencies and get to do and build on, build on, hopefully incremental progress.   Trevor Freeman  07:08 Yeah, very cool. And you're teasing a few of the areas our conversation is going to go today, that sort of intersection between agriculture and obviously, this is an energy podcast, and so how does agriculture and the way we're moving in with agriculture impacts energy and vice versa. So, we're definitely going to get to that in a minute, I think, for our listeners that are not familiar with Southern Ontario, and I haven't talked about Southern Ontario on the podcast a lot, but people that know me know I will gladly talk about what goes on in the very southern part of our country. It's where I grew up. Help us paint a picture of what Southern Ontario is like. So, in the context of energy, what makes this area of Ontario unique?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  07:50 Well, it's that's a really good question, and I'm glad you phrased it that way, because I think it gets taken for granted. And also, folks, folks don't know energy isn't in the headlines every day, and if it is, it's not a headline that everybody pays attention to. But the southwestern Ontario region, if you take the 401 west of London, you'll start to see a high concentration of wind. So, there's a significant wind corridor in the region, and that's because it's very flat, so the whole area used to be a lake bed, and so we have very fertile agricultural lands as a result of that. And we also have very few obstacles to fetch, which is a huge aspect of how wind carries over the lakes, and is, you know, not, not obstructed. And so it's like you have offshore resources onshore, which is completely ideal. Also, we have, as it may be, we have massive natural gas resources in the area, in sort of the subterranean space of Devonian reefs for natural gas storage. We have natural gas generation facilities down around the Windsor area that help with provincial peaking and there is some solar in the region, because it is the Leamington Kingsville area is referred to as the sun parlor of Ontario. And as a result, we have a lot of under glass agriculture there, which benefits, obviously, directly from solar resources. And then we have solar photovoltaic that takes advantage of that sun as well. So there's, there's a lot happening here energy wise.   Trevor Freeman  09:38 Yeah, and there's a lot on the demand side of things as well. So, you mentioned the greenhouses, which are an up and coming, you know, source of demand draws on our grid. There's also a big manufacturing base. Talk a little bit about the manufacturing base in the area. Yeah, yeah. And that's that gets into my next question is talking about some of the specific, unique energy needs of greenhouses. I think on the manufacturing side, you know, you mentioned the auto industry and the parts industry that supports it, you're seeing more. There's a battery plant being built now I think that, I think people have a sense of that, but greenhouses are this thing that I think a lot of folks don't think about. So, you talked about the magnitude of the load, the lighting side of things. What else is this like, a 24/7 load? Is this sector growing like? Tell us a little bit about, you know where things are going with greenhouses?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  09:53 Yeah, thanks. So, yeah, I was, I was thinking about generation and, yeah, demand is. Significant we have. You know, Windsor has laid claim to Canada's automotive capital, and while I'm biased, I'd like to think it still is. And so we have significant manufacturing around the automotive industry, either automotive OEMs or tier one parts makers that have significant draws. We have Stellantis. Every minivan comes out of this area has come out of this area. The electric Dodge Charger comes out of this area. But there are engine plants for Ford, but they're also now, you know, sort of next generation transport technologies. You've talking about battery manufacturing. So, there's an enormous LG consortium with Stellantis here that's doing battery manufacturing. And so, these are huge loads that that add to existing and growing loads in the greenhouse space, which, again, I'll just mention it now, is something that isn't well understood. And we did a, we did a study for the province a couple years, three, four years ago. Now, I think grid Innovation Fund project that looked at sort of really getting into granular detailing of the loads that come with a lit greenhouse. A lot of people don't appreciate that a lit greenhouse, when switched on, depending on the lighting technology, depending on how it's used, can be like a 50-megawatt load, which is a significant load. And just imagine that's one so they can come on quickly, and they are non-trivial, significant loads. And so, this is something that we looked at trying to develop distributed energy resource sort of solutions for, because, simply speaking, you can't put up a new transmission line overnight, and we don't want to economically constrain the growth of the sector. Sure, yeah. I mean, it's, it's not a simple thing to characterize, because what you can take away from this is that these greenhouse developers are business dynamos, and frankly speaking, many of them do very well, because they're very good at what they do, and with the resources they have, they can largely do what they want. And if, if the infrastructure isn't there, they will build it so. So, you'll have folks that are operating off the grid, essentially not off the gas grid, of course, but they're using gas for cogeneration purposes, to produce heat for their crops, but also the electricity for their lights. So that is one aspect of it that further complicates how to figure out what these loads on the grid will be. But for the most part, of course, the grid provides quite clean and quite affordable electricity in the province, and you know where they can they want to be able to connect to the grid. Now, lights are designed to extend the growing day and extend the growing season as well. So, in terms of when they're switched on and how they're switched on, that is highly variable, and that is also something that is, I would say, in development, folks are looking at different ways to use intermittent lighting to be conscious of when peaking happens. It is dispatchable in a way, in that some growers are able to turn their lights off to avoid, you know, peaking charges. But again, there's a lot to manage. And, and it's, it's very complicated, both on the grid side and, and for the greenhouse grower.   Trevor Freeman  14:38 Yeah, so you mentioned natural gas for cogen for heating as well. So, as we look to decarbonize all different aspects of the sector, we talk often on the show of what are the specific areas where decarbonization might be challenging. Is, is greenhouses one of those areas? And, and what are the options available for heating these spaces? Like, is it realistic to think that there's an electric solution here, or what? What's happening in that sector related to decarbonization?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  15:10 Again, you've hit on a real sort of hot button issue for the for the sector, the trouble with natural gas is that it's spectacular. Oh, it's storable. It's dispatchable. It's a triple threat for greenhouses in the best way possible, because you can make your heat, you can make your electricity, and the plants crave CO2, and that comes out of the flue gas on the other side of the combustion reaction. So, you know, when you swing in there and you say, Oh, I've got this great new solution. It's called hydrogen. We'll burn hydrogen and we won't have these nasty CO2 release. And they're like, Okay, who's going to replace my CO2? So, it's a difficult fuel to displace. Now, admittedly, people understand that, you know, that's where we really need to go. And is, is electric? You know, electrification the path. So, people talk about, people talk about heat pumps, people talk about electric boilers. And then, as I mentioned, people talked about, you know, we've, we've also looked at the idea of blending hydrogen into a natural gas feed for existing infrastructure to, you know, because, because not all of the CO2, that is, you know, released is, is taken down by the plants. And so could you get to a magic blend where it's just the amount of CO2 that you need is what goes into the other side, and then there's nothing left after the plants take what they need. So, there's a lot of things that are being looked at. It is again, a challenging space to operate in, because it's highly competitive. Getting really granular. Data is very sensitive, because this, this, this is a, you know, it's a game of margins, and it's in its high stakes production. So to get in there and sort of be in the way is, is difficult. So, this work is being done. We're participating in a lot of this work. We just finished a study for the province, a Hydrogen Innovation Fund study on looking at the integration of hydrogen into the greenhouse space. And it was, it was pretty revelatory for us.   Trevor Freeman  17:36 So is the exhaust from burning natural gas on site. Does that get recycled through the greenhouse and therefore captured to some degree? Do we know how much you kind of hinted at finding out that sweet spot? Do we know how much of that gets captured?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  17:53 Yeah, so the short answer is yes. So, they have the cogen engines have scrubbers on them, and these, these machines are spectacularly capable of being tuned the combustion and the professionals that operate them at the greenhouse facilities are artists, and that they can get the sort of combustion profile a certain way, and so that that flue gas will go into the greenhouse, but to know exactly how much is being taken down, that is an area of active research, and we don't, we don't know that answer yet. There are people that are looking at it, and you can imagine it's kind of a provocative number for the sector. So, they're being very careful about how they do it.   Trevor Freeman  18:36  I'm sure, I'm sure. Okay, let's, let's park that just for a minute here, and jump back to something you mentioned earlier. You talked about one how flat Southern Ontario is, and it took me leaving, leaving the county before I really knew what skiing and tobogganing and everything else was. So, there's a lot of wind power generation. And for anyone listening, yeah, as rip mentioned, if you ever drive down the 401 going towards Windsor, you'll just start to see these massive wind turbines kind of everywhere you look. So, help us understand how these turbines, you know, you look out over a field and you see, you know, 2030, of them more in your line of sight. How do they connect to our provincial grid? How do the contracts work? Like, who gets that power? Give us a little bit of a sense of how that works.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  19:28 For sure. Yeah, well, so what most people don't realize, and again, it's not something that's talked about, and if it is, I don't know people are necessarily paying attention to it, but, but you know the comment I'll get from relatives we talked about Thanksgiving. So, you know people, because they know I'm a wind person, they'll be like, 'Hey, I was driving down the road and I saw they weren't spinning with, what's going on? Are they broken or what?' Well, you know, because we, we've got some pro wind and some non pro wind folks in the in the family, so it's an exciting time for me. But you know, and I mentioned that the greenhouses I'm working with are often starved for utility supply. And they said, well, how can that be? The turbines are right there. They're sharing the same space, right? And most people don't realize that. Really, I would say 95% of the wind in our corridor is put on a transmission line and sent up to, effectively, to Toronto, to be distributed throughout the province, which is great, but it's not really a local asset. And that was sort of what inspired us when we saw these two sorts of juxtaposed. We thought maybe you could turn these assets into something that acted as really a new type of distributed energy resource, and that you've got a transmission connected asset that's currently under contract, but if that contract could be modified, then the fiscal connections could potentially be modified so you could have local distribution, let's say at a time of maybe at a time of transmission curtailment, maybe under different conditions. So again, looking into the physical plausibility of it was part of our study, and then doing some sort of economic investigation of how that would work, having a nearly 20-year-old asset all of a sudden springing into a new role in a new life, where it continues to perform transmission duties for the province at large, but it also serves local needs in the production, let's say, of hydrogen through an electrolyzer, or just plain electrons turning lights on. That is something that isn't possible yet. Regulatory reasons exist for that that would require some, some significant changes. But it was a really interesting exercise to go through to investigate how that could happen.   Trevor Freeman  22:08 Yeah, so there's just trying to understand how this work. There's someone who owns these turbines. Some conglomerate somewhere, you know, Canadian, not Canadian, who knows. They contract with the Independent Electricity System Operator who operates the grid in the province. And they basically say, yeah, well, look, we'll provide you with X amount of power on some contract, and when ISO needs it, they call on it. How long do those contracts last? Is that a 10-year contract? A 20-year contract?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  22:35 So, they are in Ontario. The ones that I'm familiar with for 20 years. So it's possible there are others. I know. I have a there's a farm that operates in PEI that has a nice 30 year PPA. So the longer you can get, the better. Yeah, and these, these power purchase agreements are, are wonderful for developers, because they're known entities, doing the math on your finances is really straightforward with these contracts. And frankly speaking, when you had a sector that needed to be brought up from nothing, they were very necessary. They were very necessary. And but those contracts, and they're and they're locked down, as much as we try to, you know, persuade the province to get crazy, to amuse us with these new, newfangled ways of of connecting to people, commerce wise, through energy, they are not interested so far, at least in and they're like, let's finish these out, and then we can talk your crazy ideas, you know, and so, but that's we're getting glare, because I would say many, many, many farms in the province will be coming up on the sun setting end of Their power purchase agreements in the coming five, six years.   Trevor Freeman  24:03 Yeah, yeah. Which brings me to my next point, of the assets themselves, the actual physical turbine, I assume last longer than 20 years. You're going to build one of these things. You know, 20 years is not its end of life. So what are the options available today? You talked about regulatory barriers. We talk about regulatory barriers on this show often, what are, what are the options today for a wind farm that is at its end of contract? Does it look at re contracting? Can it kind of direct source to someone else? Like, what are the options available for an owner?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  24:40 Yeah, well, to me, it's an exciting time, because it could be work for us. We get excited about this. I think it could be a source of anxiety for owners, because there's nothing better than that long term contract. So many of them will try to apply for things like a medium, a new medium term length contract from the. Province, like an MT two, I think they're called. There are other contract types that are possible, but there'll be, it'll be a highly competitive landscape for those, and the in the province won't be able to give everyone one of these contracts. So some of these, some of these operators, will likely have to look at other options which may be going into the spot market, potentially, you know, getting into the capacity game by getting a battery on site and firming up their ability to provide power when necessary or provide capacity. And then there's a there isn't a relatively recent regulatory development in the around the middle of July, the province said, you know, if you're a non emitting generator and you're not under contract, you could provide virtual power someone else who might need it, if they're looking if they're a class, a customer that's trying to avoid peak charges. You know, rather than that class a customer buys a battery behind the meter and physically reduce their peaks. They could potentially virtually reduce their peaks by setting up a virtual power purchase agreement with another supplier. So these, these off contract spinning assets could have an opportunity to get into this game of peak relief. Which, which could be very lucrative. Because, based on last year's provincial global adjustment charges at large, you're looking at being paid something on the order of about $72,000 a megawatt hour for the, for the for the for the megawatt hours in question, which, which, of course, you know, try to get as many as you can. .   Trevor Freeman  26:31 Yeah. So there's a couple of things there. Bear with me while I connect a few dots for our listeners. So on different shows, we talk about different things. Global adjustment is one of them. And we've been talking here about these long term contracts. Global adjustment, as you might remember from previous conversations, is one of those mechanisms that bridges the gap between the spot market price, you know, the actual commodity cost of electricity that's out there, and some of the built-in cost to run the system, which includes these long term contracts. So there's a there's a fixed cost to run the system, global adjustment helps bridge that gap. The next concept here that is important to remember is this class, a strategy where the largest the largest customers, electricity customers in the province, have the opportunity to adjust how they are build global adjustment based on their contribution to the most intensive demand peaks in the province over the course of a year. So during a really high demand period, when everybody needs electricity, if they can reduce their demand, there's significant savings. And so what you're saying is there's this new this new ability for kind of a virtual connection, where, if I'm a big facility that has a high demand, and I contract with a generator, like a wind turbine that's not in contract anymore, I can say, hey, it's a peak time now I need to use some of your capacity to offset, you know, some of my demand, and there's those significant savings there. So you're absolutely right. That's a new thing in the province. We haven't had that ability up until just recently. So super fascinating, and that kind of connects our two topics today, that the large demand facilities in southern Ontario and these these generators that are potentially nearing the end of their contract and looking for what else might happen. So are you guys navigating that conversation between the greenhouses or the manufacturers and the generators?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  28:49 I'm so glad you asked. And here comes, here comes a shameless plug. Yeah? So yes. So there's a spin off company from the turbulence and Energy Lab, and it's called jailbreak labs. And jailbreak labs really represents sort of the space that is more commercial than research, but it also was sort of spurned, spurred from research. So jailbreak Labs has developed a registry, and we've been providing some webinars as well. So this, again, this is a company that that is essentially run by students, that this registry allows generators and consumers to ultimately find each other so that, so that these kinds of connections can be made. Because, as you may well imagine, there is no guarantee that the wind will be blowing at the time that you need it so, so and your load may be such that you need a different type of generation profile. So it needs to be profiling on the generation side. There needs to be profiling on the customer side. Yeah, and, you know, we've been doing this on our own for years. It was the time was right for us to sort of step in and say, because we were following this, we were real fanboys of this, of this reg, even before it came into play. And we kept bugging, you know, OEB for meetings and ISO and they, begrudgingly, to their credit, would chat with us about it, and then the next thing we know, it's announced that it's that it's happening. Was very exciting. So, so, yes, so we're really interested in seeing this happen, because it seems like such a unique, we're thrilled, because we're always interested in this sort of Second Life for assets that already have been depreciated and they're clean energy assets. Let's get everything we can out of them and to have this dynamic opportunity for them, and that will help Class A customers too hard for us to ignore.   Trevor Freeman  30:56 And you mentioned the last time we chatted about building a tool that helps evaluate and kind of injecting a little bit of AI decision making into this. Talk to us about that tool a little bit.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  31:08 Yeah. So we have a, we have a tool called quantract which is basically playing on the idea of quantifying all the risk and opportunity in in a contract. So it's really a contract visualization tool. Another way to think of it as a real time Net Present Value tool that allows renewable energy stakeholders to really, evaluate the value of their investment by not only understanding the physical life left in an asset. Let's say that a wind farm that's, you know, at 20 years and it looks like we may need to replace some blades. Do we just walk away and say, look at it. We had a good run contracts over, you know, we made some money. Let's sell the assets as they are. Or do we say, you know, I'm looking into this vppa game, and we could do okay here, but I'm not exactly sure how that's going to work and when. And so this, this tool that we've developed, will do things like will first of all identify all risk factors, and risk includes opportunities and then we'll profile them, and then builds them into basically what is more or less a glorified discounted cash flow model. So it is a way of measuring the potential value of investment in the AI space. I mean, the AI piece of it is that we have developed agents that will actually identify other things that are less, less sort of noticeable to people. In fact, this regulatory change is one of the things that our AI agents would have been looking for. Okay, now it pre it predated our tool going online, so we didn't see it, but it's the kind of thing that we'd be looking for. So the agents look for news, they look for changes online, and then, and then what happens is, they got brought, they get brought into a profiler. The profiler then determines the probability of or makes an estimate of the probability that this risk will occur. IE, a regulatory change will happen. IE, battery plant will come to town at a certain time. IE, a Costco facility will come in. Then we'll determine the potential magnitude. So there'll be uncertainty in the occurrence, there'll be uncertainty in the magnitude, and there'll be uncertainty in the timing. So we have basically statistical distribution functions for each one of those things, the likelihood of it happening, the magnitude and the timing. And so those are all modeled in so that people can push a button and, say, with this level of certainty your investment would be, would be worth this much. And that's dynamic. It's in real time. So it's changing constantly. It's being updated constantly. And so no so that that is something that goes in, and one of these virtual power purchase agreements would be one of the types of things that would go into this sort of investment timeline?   Trevor Freeman  34:22 Yeah, so it's giving these owners of these assets better data to make a decision about what comes next, as you said, and as we're talking I'm kind of doing the math here. If these are typically 20 year contracts, that's bringing us back to, you know, the mid, early, 2000s when we were really pushing to get off coal. So a lot of these assets probably started in and around that time. So you've probably got a whole bunch of customers, for lack of a better term, ready to start making decisions in the next you know, half a decade or so of what do I do with my. Sets. Have you seen this? Has it been used in the real world yet? Or is, are you getting close to that? Like, where are you at in development?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  35:07 Yeah, it actually started. It's funny. It started a little a little bit even before this craze. A couple years ago, we had, we had a manufacturer in our county come to us with, they had a great interest in, in just, just they were trying to be proactive about avoiding carbon tax and so, and they wanted to develop a new generation technology close to their facility. And so we used it there since that time. Yeah, so, so it was field proven that was a still a research contract, because they were the technology that they were interested in was, was, was not off the shelf. But since that time, we got a chance, because we represent Canada in the International Energy Agency, task 43 on wind energy digitalization. And so one of the mandates there was to develop a robust and transparent tools for investment decision support using digital twins. And we had a German partner in Fraunhofer Institute that had developed nice digital twin that would provide us remaining useful life values for things like blades, you know, towers, foundations, etc, and those are, again, those are all costs that just plug into our but they did. They didn't have a framework of how to work that into an investment decision other than, you know, you may have to replace this in three years. Okay, well, that's good to know, but we need the whole picture to make that decision, and that's sort of what we were trying to bring so the short answer is, yes, we're getting a lot of interest now, which is thrilling for us, but it's, I'll be honest with you, it's not, it's not simple, like, you know, I I've talked about it a bunch of times, so I'm pretty good at talking about it, but, but the doing it is still, it's computationally intensive and in the end, it's still an estimate. It's a, it's a, it's a calculated, quantified estimate, but it's an estimate. I think what we like about it is it's better than saying, Well, I have a hunch that it's going to go this way, but we could get beat by the hunches too. Yeah, totally, right. So, so, you know, I'm not trying to sell people things that, like I we have to be transparent about it. It's still probability.   Trevor Freeman  37:35 Well, I think if there's, if there's one thing that is very apparent, as we are well into this energy transition process that we talk about all the time here on the show. It's that the pace of change is is one of the things that's like no other time we are we are seeing things change, and that means both our demand is growing, our need to identify solutions is growing the way that we need to build out the grid and utilize the ers and utilize all these different solutions is growing at a rate that we haven't seen before, and therefore uncertainty goes up. And so to your point, yeah, we need help to make these decisions. We need better ways of doing it than just, as you say, having a hunch. That doesn't mean it's foolproof. It doesn't mean it's a guarantee.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  38:27 Nope, it is not a guarantee.   Trevor Freeman  38:30 Very cool. So Rupp, this is a great conversation. It's really fascinating to talk about to me, two areas of the energy sector that aren't really understood that well. I think the agriculture side of things, not a lot of people think about that as a major demand source. But also wind, I think we talk about solar a lot. It's a little bit more ubiquitous. People's neighbors have solar on their roofs. But wind is this unless you drive through Southern Ontario or other parts of the province where there's a lot of wind, you don't see it a lot. So it's fascinating to kind of help understand where these sectors are going. Is there anything else that the Institute is working on that that's worth chatting about here, or is what we've talked about, you know, kind of filling your day, in your students days?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  39:15 Well, actually there is something we haven't talked about the nuclear option. Literally, literally the nuclear literally the nuclear option. Yeah, so we've been really thrilled to have a growing relationship with Canadian Nuclear Laboratories, which is much closer to you than it is to me. And specifically in the connection of small modular reactors to meet these growing agricultural loads. So I have a science colleague at the University of Windsor, Dr drew Marquart, who was all hot and bothered about these s. Mrs. And he's like, we should drop one of these SMRs in Leamington. Then I this, this part I really enjoyed, because it's obviously so he came from Oak Ridge National Laboratories in the States, and he's and he's been at CNL as well. So he's fully indoctrinated into the nuclear space. But it just didn't occur to him that that would be provocative or controversial at all, that there wouldn't be some social he, you know, he's like, we can do the math. And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, we can do the math. But I'm like, I think you're missing something. I think you're missing something, right? So, but so it's, it's a super fascinating topic, and we're trying to connect, physically connect. So just before the weekend, I was in the turbulence and Energy Lab, and we were trying to commission what we believe is North America's first we're calling it a model synthetic, small modular reactor, synthetic being the key word, and that it's non nuclear, okay? And so it's non nuclear. What it what it is really and if I'm going to de glamorize it for a second, it's a mini steam thermal power plant, which doesn't embody every SMR design, but many SMRs are designed around this sort of where you've got a nuclear reaction that provides the heat, and then after that, it's kind of a steam thermal power plant. Our interest is in this physical little plant being connected to small electrolyzer, being connected to small thermal battery, being connected to a lab scale electric battery and being connected to a lab scale fully automated inlet, cucumber, small cucumber, greenhouse, mini cubes greenhouse, all this in our lab. The exciting thing around this is, you know, I I've said that I think nuclear technology needs to get out from behind the walls of nuclear facilities for people to start to appreciate it, and by that, to start doing that, you have to take the nuclear part out, which, to me, is not necessarily a deal breaker in terms of these dynamic issues that we want to solve. You know, because nukes have traditionally been said, Well, you know they're not that. You know, you can't just ramp them up and down, and that's true, you know, and small modular reactors are supposed to be considerably more nimble, but there's still lots of challenges that have to be solved in terms of having how it is an asset that is provides copious energy, but does so maybe not, not as dynamic, certainly, as a gas turbine. That how does it? How do you make it nimble, right? How do you partner it up with the right complimentary other grid assets to take advantage of what it does so well, which is crank out great amounts of heat and electricity so, so effortlessly, right? And so that's, that's sort of what we're trying to do, and connecting it to what we're calling atomic agriculture. I don't know that's a good name or not. I like it, but, but, but, yeah, so that that's another thing that we're that we're flirting with right now. We're working on. We've done a few. We've had a few contracts with Canadian Nuclear Laboratories to get us this far. We did everything computationally. We're continuing to do computational studies with them. They develop their own hybrid energy systems, optimizer software, HISO, which we use, and we are now trying to put it into sort of the hardware space. So again, just the idea that physically looking at the inertia of spinning up a turbine, the little gap, the little sort of steam powered turbine that we have in the lab that's run by an electric boiler. But our hope is to, ultimately, we're going to get the electric boiler to be mimicking the sort of reaction heating dynamics of a true reactor. So by, but through electrical control. So we'll imitate that by having sort of data from nuclear reactions, and then we'll sort of get an electrical signal analog so that we can do that and basically have a non nuclear model, small modular reactor in the lab.   Trevor Freeman  44:14 Very cool, very neat. Well, Rupp, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate it. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions here, so I'm going to jump right into those. What's a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  44:31 I would say any of the Babysitters Club. That's as high as I get in the literary hierarchy. I'm barely literate so and I thoroughly enjoyed reading those books with my daughters that they were great. So I recommend any, any of the Babysitters Club titles. I mean that completely seriously, I that was the peak of my that are dog man, yeah,   Trevor Freeman  44:56 I'm about six months removed from what i. Was about an 18 month run where that's, that's all I read with my youngest kiddo. So they've, they've just moved on to a few other things. But yes, I've been steeped in the Babysitter's Club very recently.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  45:11 So good. So, you know, absolutely.   Trevor Freeman  45:14 So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's something that you recommend?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  45:17 Everyone thrilled with that question. If you're looking for a good, good true story. I've always been romantically obsessed with the ghost in the darkness, the true story of, I guess, a civil engineer trying to solve a problem of man eating lions and Tsavo. That's a, that's a, that's a tremendous movie with Val Kilmer and Michael Douglas. Yeah, that's good then, and I think for something a little more light hearted and fun, a big fan of the way, way back and youth and revolt, nice.   Trevor Freeman  46:03 If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  46:05 I don't really like flying, I got to be honest. But if, if I was forced onto the plane, I think, I think I go to Japan. Nice. Have you been before? No, I haven't. I'd like to go. Okay, cool. You're not the first guest that has said that someone else was very That's understandable. Yeah, who is someone that you admire? I would say truly selfless people that help people when no one's looking and when it's not being tabulated for likes those people are who I aspire to be more like nice.   Trevor Freeman  46:47 And last question, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  46:53 I think maybe power to the people I really like, the movement of distributed energy resources. I'm sure there's a limit to it, but I think, I think if we have more responsibility for our own power production, and again, I can see there are limits where it's probably, you know, there's, there's a point where it's too much. I'm all for, for major centralized coordination and the security in the reliability that goes with that. But I think a little bit more on the distributed side would be nice, because I think people would understand energy better. They would they would own it more, and I think our grid would probably increase in its resiliency.   Trevor Freeman  47:37 Yeah, that's definitely something that no matter the topic, it seems, is a part of almost every conversation I have here on the show. It works its way in, and I think that's indicative of the fundamental role that decentralizing our energy production and storage is is already playing and is going to play in the years to come as we kind of tackle this energy transition drove this has been a really great conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us, and that's great to catch up. Great to chat with you again.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  48:11 Total privilege for me. Trevor, I really appreciate it. Outstanding job.   Trevor Freeman  48:15 Thanks for having me. Yeah, great to chat. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].  

Rooftop solar. Backup batteries. Smart EV chargers. Distributed energy resources (DERs) are changing the way electricity is generated, managed, and used in Ontario. In this thinkenergy short, Trevor Freeman breaks down how DERs can reduce your carbon footprint, provide backup power during outages, and help you manage your energy costs. Listen in for how net metering, load displacement, and evolving tech partnerships are reshaping the future of the grid and giving you more control over your energy.   Related links   Breaking down Distributed Energy Resources, with Hydro Ottawa's Trevor Freeman (thinkenergy episode 146): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/breaking-down-distributed-energy-resources-with-hydro-ottawas-trevor-freeman/     Consumer impact: revisiting grid modernization with Capgemini Canada (thinkenergy episode 162): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/consumer-impact-revisiting-grid-modernization-with-capgemini-canada/     Save on Energy programs: https://saveonenergy.ca/en/For-Business-and-Industry/Programs-and-incentives/Retrofit-Program     Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114    Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en      To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod - Transcript: Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back. Today on think energy, I'm going to talk about distributed energy resources, or DERs. Now, if you've been listening to the show for a long time or even a short time, you will have heard us talk about DERs many times before, and for good reason. DERs are an important and growing part of our energy lives. About a year ago, I did an episode diving into what DERs are, and I encourage you to go back and listen to that one. But today I thought I do a quick refresh and talk about some of the most common ways that DERs are used. So, let's dive right in. First the refresh.  DERs or distributed energy resources, are simply pieces of equipment that can generate or store power, generally on the smaller scale size of things, and spread throughout the grid. So, we're not talking about large scale, centralized generation plants here, but that small to medium scale, kind of think rooftop solar or batteries that are sized for home or facility use. And generally, when we're talking about DERs, we're focused on renewable technology like solar panels or batteries, and in some cases, you know, smaller wind turbines. For the most part on this show, that's what we're focused on. However, there are sort of non-renewable DERs as well, and we'll actually touch on that a little bit later. So, let's dive into what some of the reasons are why someone would want a der there's a couple of different reasons. The first is for backup during an outage. So, using solar panels, especially if paired with a battery, can give you some backup if there's an outage from the grid, whether that's a storm or an accident or something like that, that backup power can be focused on your key devices or systems or appliances, or if your storage is big enough, or your system is big enough, it may be used to power your whole home for a period of Time. Of course, if you're using one of those nonrenewable sources that I mentioned, like a fossil fuel power generator, for example, then your backup supply can last longer, really, as long as you've got fuel, but it's not clean, so you will be producing carbon emissions. One emerging technology that we'll likely see more of in the future is using an electric vehicle for this purpose. So, while there's only a few different models that allow this right now, the Ford f1 50 is one of them, and there are some safety and regulatory considerations before you go ahead and do this, we can expect to see more of this in the future as the technology advances and it becomes a bit more widespread. Another reason for DERs is financial. Installing a der can actually help you save money every month, whether that's just by reducing what you consume from the grid or by pushing back unused generation to the grid for credits. And I'll touch on this a little bit more shortly. Finally, if we're talking about those renewable DERs, they produce clean energy. So that's carbon, free emissions, free energy. And if you are concerned about your carbon footprint, you're trying to decarbonize and reduce the amount of emissions that you cause. DERs, renewable DERs are a great way to do that. You can lower your carbon footprint by reducing how much you draw from the electricity grid and any carbon emissions that are associated with that. Okay, so let's go back to the financial use case for a minute and talk about the different ways that that's possible. I'll be speaking about the Ontario context here. So, if you're listening from outside of Ontario, you'll have to do a little bit of your own research to figure out what options exist where you live. One option to set up your der for financial reasons is net metering, which I kind of alluded to earlier. Net metering is a setup for renewable generation sources only that allows you to use as much of your generation as you can to power your home when you're using it, and then push back whatever you don't use to the grid. Whatever you push back to the grid, will give you a credit on your bill that you can use to offset the electricity charge portion of your bill. Another option would be load displacement. With this arrangement, you can generate electricity exclusively for your own use, so you will reduce the amount that you pull from the grid, and that will save you money, but you don't push anything back to the grid, and therefore you don't earn any credits. And finally, there are standalone generation setups. This arrangement involves pushing all of your generation back to the grid for some agreed upon compensation. While there used to be programs for small scale standalone generation so you might be familiar and on. Ontario with the fit or the MicroFit programs that existed about 10 years ago. These programs are closed today, and generally only large generators have a standalone arrangement. Now, like any technology, DERs are not free to install. In fact, they can be quite pricey in some cases, but because they provide benefit to the grid. There are incentive programs out there to help reduce the upfront costs. Here in Ontario, the ISOs save on energy programs provide an incentive to any customer type, from residential all the way up to large commercial to install rooftop solar, and homeowners can access additional funding to install the battery along with their solar. If you're interested in doing this, or you want to learn a little bit more, you can reach out to your LDC, visit our website. If you're in hydro Ottawa's territory, or visit save on energy.ca. In the near future, you will also likely see more utilities wanting to partner with der owners. I talked about this a little bit in my last episode with Andrea Nusser About grid modernization here at hydro Ottawa, we are working on a technology project that will be launched next year that will enable der owners to leverage their devices for an incentive to help manage the grid in targeted areas. It's pretty exciting stuff, and it's really the next wave of distributed energy resources on our grid and how we're going to interact with them. It's pretty exciting. So, there you have it. That's a quick summary of the different ways that DERs are used. If you're looking at installing a der in your home, whether that's solar or battery or anything else, or for your business for that matter, have a look at our website. Make sure you fill out the application forms and reach out to us so that we can help get you set up and get you using your der thanks for tuning in to another think energy short and look forward to chatting with you next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].