Ep 248 - Asserting Boundaries

In this episode, Wem and I chatted about feedback from previous episodes, preparing for incoming winter seasons, and whether it's possible to 'procrastinate' at Forest School.www.patreon.com/theforestschoolpodcast to support uswww.children-of-the-forest.com for CPD weekends and more!

This week Wem and I get into something that's been rumbling through forest school Facebook groups all summer: fires, heatwaves, drought, and where individual choice ends and collective responsibility begins.It started with a post about forest school leaders lighting fires during the current UK drought, and the pile of comments underneath it. Some people were arguing it's down to individual practitioners, their training and their risk benefit assessments. Others were pointing at local fire services actively fighting wildfires and asking whether "I've done my RBA" is really enough justification right now. We try to pull that apart properly rather than picking a side.Along the way we talk about the headline game, a tool I use for weighing up risky decisions, and how it applies just as well to cancelling a session as it does to lighting a fire. We get into whether forest school is a community or a collection of individuals doing their own thing, my ongoing argument against the mycelial network metaphor and my pitch for lichen instead, and where the line sits between influencing someone's practice and controlling it.We finish on training and accrediting bodies, what a climate-literate Forest School Leader Level 3 might actually need to cover, and how we might get better at critiquing each other's practice without it turning into a pile-on.Forest School Association, the UK's professional body for Forest School, which runs the Recognised Provider and Endorsed Trainer schemes we talk about: forestschoolassociation.orgThe Met Office Fire Severity Index, the tool fire services use to rate wildfire risk and which prompted our "what should Level 3 training actually cover" tangent: metoffice.gov.uk/services/government/environmental-hazard-resilience/fire-severity-indexThe Beaufort scale, referenced as the wind equivalent of the fire index conversationhttps://www.rmets.org/metmatters/beaufort-wind-scaleLinks and references mentioned

This week I'm joined by Ellie J, known online as Clown Daddy. I first came across her work online and knew straight away that forest school leaders and outdoor educators would get something out of hearing how she thinks about performance, status and play.Ellie trained as an actress at NYU before studying at the famous L'École Internationale de Théâtre Jacques Lecoq in Paris, sometimes called clown school even though it teaches far more than that. She now works as an actress, clown and puppeteer, blending all three into what she calls Clown Daddy, and her current show is a one woman version of Hamlet built entirely around the idea that the rest of the cast simply doesn't turn up.We talk about what happens when you take something as wordy and prescriptive as Shakespeare and hand it over to clowning instead. From there the conversation opens out into the stuff I really wanted to get into: status and hierarchy, the courage it takes to fail in front of a group, and why safety has to come before play, not the other way round. Ellie draws a brilliant distinction between offering someone a single kernel of popcorn and tipping the whole bucket over their head, and it maps almost exactly onto how I think about pushing kids gently rather than shocking them into growth.We also get into the darker side of performance training, the Philippe Gaulier school of "you are a piece of crap on my boot" teaching, and whether that culture still has a place anywhere. Ellie's answer is more generous than I expected. There's a good stretch on consent in performance, on reading a room without ever handing someone a form to fill in, and on why she doesn't record her workshops or shows. And we finish on nature, puppetry, and pine needle confetti, which I am now determined to actually make.Clown Daddy's website: clown-daddy.comClown Daddy Presents (shows, workshops and coaching): clowndaddypresents.comInstagram: @clowndaddypresentsL'École Internationale de Théâtre Jacques Lecoq, Paris (the "Lecoq school" Ellie trained at)Michael Chekhov, actor and teacher referenced for his work on embodiment and imaginationPhilippe Gaulier, the clowning teacher whose famously brutal teaching style we discussEllie J, also known as Clown Daddy, is an actress turned clown and puppeteer based in the Catskills. Trained at NYU Tisch and Lecoq in Paris, her work blends physical comedy, puppetry and vaudevillian slapstick with real emotional depth. Her current show, a solo take on Hamlet, has been touring venues in New York State.Links mentionedAbout Clown Daddy

This week, Wem and I chatted about Boundary setting and picked through Kami Orange's book of boundary scripts and frameworks!

What if the secret to better behaviour support in forest school isn't focusing on the child at all?Lewis and Wem are back for a wide-ranging, woodland-based chat that opens with lime plaster, kilts, and a mosaic pizza oven before diving into some genuinely rich territory: what does it actually mean to take an intraaction-based approach to behaviour? How do you move away from old-school "fix the child" thinking without sliding into permissiveness? And what can a day of interpretive dance, collective poetry, and drama research in Bristol teach us about forest school pedagogy? Plus: squirrels, rabbits round the fire pit, the Southwest FSA Gathering, tenon cutters, and Wem's mysterious single-name workshop listing at the national conference.Chapter Titles and Timestamps:0:00 - Lime plaster, kilts, and a mosaic pizza oven2:00 - Wearing messy, child-made things as a badge of honour4:29 - Following up on Dr Wendy Russell: intraaction and behaviour support6:54 - Old-school behaviour management vs. shifting what you can actually control8:50 - The soup of a person: inner worlds, neuroplasticity, and fixed mindset language14:20 - Persistent offering and not closing doors too early17:53 - Is intraaction-based behaviour support just permissive?20:02 - The communal cooking example: setting people up to succeed22:27 - How loudly does John's sadness exist? On heterarchy and roles26:07 - The Tangled Roots of Creative Research and Social Justice, Bristol33:42 - The Conference of Trees and the value of cross-disciplinary spaces35:49 - Space-setting intentions vs. ground rules: lessons from a research day40:12 - The Southwest FSA Gathering at Hateford Woods41:10 - Tenon cutters, turmeric dyeing, and beatboxing44:29 - National conference plans, and Wem's workshop: Looking at Play Playfully46:45 - Beech overhang, approaching rain, and goodbyeSupportive Elements:Listen back to the episode with Dr Wendy Russell on play, posthumanism, and spatial justice for children, which this conversation directly follows on from. We also reference our previous episode on Nonviolent Communication. Find everything at www.children-of-the-forest.com. Support the show from around £2/month at www.patreon.com/theforestschoolpodcast , and leave us a voice message via the SpeakPipe link on the website.

This one is special. Wem and I got to sit down with Dr Wendy Russell, independent play researcher, senior research fellow at the University of Gloucestershire, and 50 years into a career that started on an adventure playground apprenticeship in the 1970s. I came away from this conversation needing to go for a long walk and think about everything.The first half covers Wendy's work on spatial justice for children, the politics of public space, and what it would actually mean to have a statutory play sufficiency duty in England. We talk about what play sufficiency means in practice, why Wales has led the way, and why politicians keep defaulting to playgrounds when the picture is so much bigger than that.The second half goes deeper, into the relational capability approach to playing and being well that Wendy has developed with Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil of Ludicology. Drawing on Henri Lefebvre's production of space, Karen Barad's concept of intra-action, and the relational turn across academic disciplines, Wendy patiently walked Wem and me through a genuinely paradigm-shifting way of thinking about children, play, agency and wellbeing.By the end, the playwork principles themselves come under scrutiny. The idea of play as "freely chosen and personally directed" gets unpicked in a way that I'm still sitting with.Strap in. Press rewind as many times as you need. See you on the other side.In this episodeHow Wendy moved from adventure playground apprentice to academic researcher across 50 years in play and playworkThe politics of space and what spatial justice for children actually meansWhy falling road casualty statistics for children hide a much more troubling storyPlay sufficiency as a principle, what it is, what Wales has done with it, and why England feels like it's at a genuine policy moment right nowThe tension between play's intrinsic value and what funders and politicians actually want to measureWhy post-occupancy evaluation of housing developments almost never happens, and what Diana Bournat's research tells us when it doesHow repositioning a ball games area changes the way girls move across an entire spaceThe relational capability approach to playing and being well, resources, opportunities, and the conditions that allow children to playThe relational turn across academic disciplines and what it means to move away from the individual, atomised childKaren Barad's concept of intra-action and why "interaction" doesn't quite capture itWhat all of this means for forest school practice, the wind, the branch, the ants, and usFollowing an object across a play session as a practitioner reflective tool (I am absolutely trying this)Why "freely chosen and personally directed" is a useful definition and also, it turns out, a deeply adult-centric oneLinks and resourcesWendy Russell's publications, University of Gloucestershire research repository (search "Wendy Russell Gloucestershire") or via her LinkedIn profile [add link]Playing and Being Well, the Play Wales commissioned research review: playwales.org.ukPlay Wales: playwales.org.ukPlay England: playengland.org.ukLudicology, Mike Barkley and Ben Tawil: ludicology.comUNCRC General Comment 17 on Article 31, children's right to playHenri Lefebvre, The Production of SpaceKaren Barad, concept of intra-actionTim Gill, children's independent mobility and road space design: timgill.netComing up at Children of the ForestPedagogy Immersion Weekend, 15 and 16 August 2026, Devon. If you're already qualified and you want to have the kind of conversation we've just had, this is the place. Tickets and nearby accommodation listings at children-of-the-forest.comLevel 3 Forest School Leader Training, Sunday cohort and intensive holiday block formats. Details and booking on the website.Send us a voice noteGot thoughts on this episode? There's a button on the website where you can record us a voice note directly from your phone. We genuinely love getting them.

In this podcast, Nik Elvy, an artist, outdoor educator, and researcher, shares insights on neo-enclosure, folk traditions, and the impact of history on contemporary society. We explored themes of land access, cultural heritage, and social justice, offering a deep dive into how history and folklore shape our present and future.Chapters00:00 Introduction and Personal Anecdotes01:18 Nick Elvie's Background and Recent Work03:01 Understanding Neo-Enclosure: Definitions and Examples04:59 Green Spaces, Parking, and Neo-Enclosure06:48 Community Spaces and Exclusion09:01 Meeting with the Secretary of State on Poverty11:55 Poverty, Epigenetics, and Family History15:56 Historical Land Rights and Enclosure Movements20:02 Folklore, Folk Practices, and Cultural Heritage29:54 The Folk Renaissance and Cultural Appropriation39:57 Community Engagement and Folk Traditions50:05 Contemporary Challenges: Gentrification and Cultural Loss57:58 The Role of Outdoor Education and Land Access01:00:00 Closing Remarks and ResourcesFolklorican on Substack - https://folklorican.substack.com/Folkloric on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/folkloric

Unlocking the Secrets of Soil: An Interview with Ellen Fay from the Sustainable Soils AllianceDiscover the fascinating world beneath our feet with Ellen Fay, a passionate advocate for soil health and biodiversity. In this episode, we delve into what soil really is, why it's vital for our planet, and how we can all contribute to its preservation.Main Topics:The fundamental composition and diversity of soil across different landscapesThe significance of soil as a living ecosystem and its role in climate change mitigationThreats to soil health including erosion, contamination, compaction, and land usePractical ways for schools and individuals to support soil conservationThe importance of policy and research gaps in soil protection effortsKey Insights:Soil is a complex living ecosystem made up of minerals, organic matter, water, air, and a vast diversity of microorganisms and fauna.There are over 750 recognized soil types in the UK, each requiring specific management practices.Soil degradation poses significant threats to biodiversity, water management, and climate regulation.Protecting leaf litter, avoiding soil compaction, and understanding local soil types are critical practices for environmental stewardship.National soil monitoring and policies need nurturing to safeguard soil for future generations.Small everyday actions, such as avoiding peat and engaging kids in soil exploration, can make a substantial impact.Timestamps:00:44 - Introduction to Ellen Fay and her journey into soil advocacy01:33 - The importance of soil knowledge and the role of the Sustainable Soils Alliance05:23 - Simplified explanation of what soil is and its components09:36 - Diversity of soil types across the UK and their formation12:53 - How ancient woodland soils differ and why they are slow to recover15:00 - The debate over leaf litter and soil layers in forests17:31 - The vulnerability of soils and threats from land use and construction21:15 - The impact of soil compaction and how to remediate it24:52 - The ecosystem functions of soil and its importance for water and carbon storage29:52 - Current national initiatives and policies for soil protection32:18 - Practical actions individuals and schools can take to promote soil health40:45 - The potential impacts of using woodchip on pathways and soil protection42:48 - Final advice on making informed decisions to safeguard soilResources & Links:Sustainable Soils AllianceUK Soil Map & DataBook: "Teaming with Microbes" by Jeff LowenfelsResearch on Soil BiodiversityUnderstanding Soil Erosion and ConservationConnect with Ellen Fay:LinkedInTwitterWebsiteAdditional notes:Ellen emphasises the crucial role of education, policy reform, and everyday actions in preserving soil. Engaging children in soil ecology — through activities like wormeries and plant growth experiments — fosters early appreciation and stewardship of this vital resource.

We recorded this one outside in the sunshine, which felt almost unreasonably good. Wem and I had a lot to catch up on and approximately no plan for how to do it. This is what came out.Wem started with a holiday debrief from the Picos de Europa in northern Spain. A campervan, the mountains, storks nesting on telegraph poles, vultures, a scops owl that everyone else in the vicinity mistook for a car alarm, and a brief but passionate argument for why campervans are the best possible holiday format for families who find transitions hard. There is also a detour into the biggest swing in Spain and a childhood memory of Wem's involving shoes, fences, and wet morning grass that I will not spoil.Then I had some news to share. The woodland is growing. I have agreed a price on a flat, bluebell-filled acre right next to the existing site, which takes Children of the Forest from three acres of north-west-facing hill to over four acres, with open canopy, big old oaks, and a completely different feel to everything I have worked in for the last decade. Ten years to the month, as it happens. We talk about what that kind of change feels like when you have been going through a flat patch, and why Looby McNamara's Cultural Emergence design web has come back off the shelf to help me think through what comes next.Wem also gives a PhD update. Coming to the end of year one, with a redrafted research proposal about play at forest school in progress. We have a really honest conversation about what it feels like to step back into being a beginner when you have spent years being experienced in your field, about research ethics and children, who actually benefits from data, and what genuinely participatory research can look like when children are co-creators rather than subjects.And then we both get a bit ranty, in the best way, about AI-generated event posters, what folk art actually is, the difference between collecting skills and collecting outputs, and why a badly made Word document flyer tells you more about an event and the person running it than any AI image ever will. The Lost Folk gets a mention. So does an accordion Wem has apparently acquired. There is also a wren on a stump that derails everything completely for about two minutes and I have no regrets about that.References from this episode: Cultural Emergence by Looby McNamara, The Lost Folk, and the Bulworthy Project rewilding estate, where white storks are now nesting in the UK.

This episode explores the realities of forest school leadership, challenging idealized expectations with authentic experiences. Hosts Wem and Lewis share insights on community building, industry myths, and the importance of authenticity in outdoor education. keywordsforest school, outdoor education, community building, training realities, outdoor leadership, nature-based learning key topicsMyths vs. reality of forest school trainingCommunity building and relationship managementFlexibility and adaptability in outdoor educationChapters00:00 The Long-Tailed Tit's Nest Discovery05:28 Springtime Adventures and Nature's Bounty06:34 The Reality of Forest School Training11:45 Expectations vs. Reality in Outdoor Education19:48 The Challenges of Flexibility in Outdoor Settings25:57 Nature Bypassing and the Business of Outdoor Education31:58 Navigating the Business Side of Forest School34:24 Navigating Code Switching in Education37:25 The Journey of Continuous Learning40:35 Community Holding Beyond the Classroom45:23 Creating a Homely Outdoor Environment50:24 The Punk Spirit of Forest School57:18 The Future of Community-Funded Education59:22 Pod Fart.mp4 resourcesForest School Association - https://forestschoolassociation.org/Nests by Susan Ogilvie - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nests-Susan-Ogilvie/dp/XXXXXXOfsted - https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/ofsted