Anthropic's Chief on A.I.: ‘We Don’t Know if the Models Are Conscious’

Even if you don’t believe he walked on water, the teachings of Jesus still have a certain power. My guest this week, the New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman, calls himself a “Christian atheist.” I asked Ehrman to come on the show to explore Jesus’ message, discuss how the Bible has shaped the morality of the Western world and explain what even the biggest skeptic can learn from one of mankind’s oldest texts. 0:00 - Intro 02:20 - Jesus’s moral teachings 08:15 - Ehrman’s path away from Christianity and faith 21:22 - The historical evidence for Jesus and the New Testament 33:26 - The challenges in interpreting the Gospels 52:07 - The contradictions in the New Testament 01:04:10 - Historical and geographical validity 01:09:25 - The visions and reality of the Resurrection  01:19:21 - A “Christian atheist” (A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Is the U.S. winning the war with Iran? Even though President Trump claims success, it doesn’t quite feel like it — oil and gas prices are high, the Strait of Hormuz is effectively closed, and the Iranian regime is still in place. Mark Dubowitz, the chief executive of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and a prominent Iran hawk, explains why “total victory” is within reach in spite of the cost. I pressed him on the gap between Trump’s desire for a quick deal and his desire to end the Islamic Republic. 00:00 - Intro 00:03:49 -  Is Iran biding its time until Trump leaves office? 00:07:07 -  Three phases to regime change 00:09:42 -  Iran's military capabilities and the Strait of Hormuz 00:14:54 -  How will the next American president treat Iran? 00:18:48 -  The battle for the Strait of Hormuz 00:23:27 -  Will Iran attack its neighbors? 00:28:43 -  Will Trump cut a deal? 00:38:19 -  Does Israel think Trump is its best chance? 00:43:04 -  Risk of U.S. alienation from Israel 00:48:01 -  The cost of inaction and the Iranian people Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The idea that white people — and white men in particular — face discrimination has become something of an obsession on the American right. It’s a view that my guest this week shares. Jeremy Carl was nominated to a State Department post by the Trump administration, which sparked a lot of controversy. Carl is the author of “The Unprotected Class,” in which he makes the case that white Americans are in danger of becoming “second-class citizens.”  I wanted to know what he thinks constitutes anti-white discrimination and whether focusing on it inevitably leads to white nationalism. After we taped this interview, Carl withdrew his nomination, acknowledging that he lacked enough support to be confirmed. 0:00 - Intro 01:59 - Jeremy Carl’s trajectory and State Department Nomination 05:24 - The Civil Rights Act and rise of anti-white Discrimination 12:20 - The impact of immigration on white Americans 24:53 - The "radicalization" of D.E.I. 37:37 - Carl’s provocative language and controversial tweets 51:06 - “White culture” vs. “civic nationalism” 01:01:00 - The fours pillars of “Americanness” (A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Can the Democrats finally seize on President Trump’s increasing unpopularity and end their slump? It seems to me as though 2026 is providing them ample opportunity. But I wanted to know what they actually stand for. Have they learned anything about immigration? Are they ready for the new politics of artificial intelligence? To find out, I asked someone I consider a true man of the left, Chris Hayes, the host of “All In With Chris Hayes” on MS NOW. 00:00 Intro 02:09 - Democrats: The state of play in 2026 06:46 - How Israel fractures the Democrats 09:19 - Immigration reform beyond the “old consensus” 19:46 - Models for Democratic leadership: Mark Kelly, Ruben Gallego, Rafael Warnock, and Jon Ossoff 27:22 - 2028: Kamala Harris, Gavin Newsom and “the Hillary Clinton problem”  30:41 - The politics of attention 36:19 - The challenges of achieving a Leftist society 45:37 - A Leftist case against A.I. 1:04:23 - Will A.I. define the 2028 election? (A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times With Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I don’t think a war with Iran is what Trump — or his voters — had in mind when he campaigned on “America first.” My guest this week is Curt Mills, the executive director of The American Conservative, a magazine that champions foreign policy restraint. Mills thinks the war with Iran is a major betrayal of the voters who put Trump in the White House and has the potential to shatter Trump’s domestic coalition.  01:27 - Tracking the Trump administration’s foreign policy shifts and dynamics 08:50 - The different strands of right-wing foreign policy 15:00 - Is the anti-war movement real?: Policy, polling and public opinion  27:49 - Israel, Saudi Arabia and the Middle East’s influence on U.S. foreign policy 40:17 - Why can’t Trump say no to Israel? 46:20 - How does the fallout in Iran impact Trump’s potential 2028 successors and insurgents? (A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We’re going back to the moon for the first time in more than 50 years. That is, if Artemis II can get off the ground. I sat down with Jared Isaacman, the billionaire leading NASA, to hear his perspective on everything from extraterrestrial life to the timeline for sending humans to Mars.  This interview was recorded before NASA announced the delay of Artemis II’s launch. 01:59 - Where are we? 04:00 - From entrepreneur to astronaut 09:04 - The “lunar futuristic junkyard” 15:06 - NASA’s budget 22:43 - Beyond NASA: Blue Origin, SpaceX and private industry 27:26 - The orbital economy 37:21 - How do we get to Mars? 43:31 - “Do you think there's life out there?” (A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The next global leader is waiting in the wings — and no, I don’t mean China. India is the major power with the fastest-growing economy and the world’s largest population, and on the heels of trade deals with the United States and the European Union, it’s poised to become even more influential. I wanted to speak with Amitav Acharya, a prominent international relations scholar, about whether a new Indian century is about to be born.01:49 - India vs. China: The race to development05:26 - “The mother of all trade deals”11:02 - India's “multi-aligned” foreign policy17:46 - What is India’s grand strategy?24:08 - The diaspora’s cultural and civilizational influence41:50 - India in 2060(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

A.I. is evolving fast, and humanity is falling behind. Dario Amodei, the chief executive of Anthropic, has warned about the potential benefits — and real dangers — linked to the speed of that progress. As one of the lords of this technology, is he on the side of the human race?01:37 - The promise and optimism of A.I.12:59 - White collar "bloodbaths"25:09 - Robotics and physical labor30:16 - The first “dangerous” scenario42:22 - What if it goes rogue?48:01 - Claude’s constitution(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Nearly four years after Roe v. Wade was overturned, where is the pro-life movement setting its sights? That’s what I wanted to know from the activist Lila Rose. We spoke last month in front of a live audience at the Catholic University of America. We debated whether her cause was prepared for the fall of Roe and whether abortion still matters at all to the right. 01:55 - Live Action and undercover activism05:53 - Pro-Life 101 and S.L.E.D.13:36 - “The mistake of feminism”17:02 - Pro-family policy22:47 - The political landscape after Roe 42:35 - The pro-life movement beyond politics47:39 - The medical “zone of uncertainty”53:53 - Why should women be pro-life?(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

I want to say something that few conservatives will admit right now: Donald Trump has lost the country. The coalition he assembled to defeat Kamala Harris has evaporated, and his aggressive agenda — never mind his legacy — won’t survive if Republicans can’t win the next election.Thoughts? Email us at [email protected]. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.