Toby Phelps, Co-President of BGO - From Lehman Collapsing Next Door to Leading a $100 Billion Real Estate Platform

This week on People Property Place, we do something different. Recorded live on the ground at Mipim in Cannes, this episode is the first of a new format: People Property Place Profiles. Where I walk and talk with some of the most outspoken and influential figures across the real assets industry. This week's conversation features Shaun Simons, co-founder of Compton, whose previous episode held the number one download spot on the show for nearly two years. Recorded in the middle of one of the industry's biggest annual gatherings, Shaun is characteristically unfiltered, direct and full of conviction. The conversation opens with Shaun making a bold call — he is more optimistic about the market right now than he has been since 2021. He breaks down the three specific forces he believes are converging to make 2026 a genuinely pivotal year for the London office market, and why the narrative of an industry circling the drain is finally starting to shift. Shaun also takes aim at one of commercial property's biggest blind spots — the industry's chronic failure to communicate with the people it is actually trying to do business with — and explains why he believes the big surveying firms have been getting this fundamentally wrong for years. The discussion turns to the role of personal brand and social media in building a real estate business, where Shaun shares a remarkable story about how four years of consistent LinkedIn activity resulted in a 40,000 sq ft instruction he never had to pitch for. He also reveals that he attributes somewhere between 25 and 30% of Compton's total revenue directly to social media. Finally Shaun shares his outlook for the year ahead, why he believes the stars are aligning for a genuine market recovery and what keeps him up at night as he leads a growing team of over 30 people. Drop your thoughts in the comments. We would love to hear your take. The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers. 🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Toby Phelps, Co-President of BGO, who has spent 30 years at the top of European real estate investing and been involved in over $20 billion of transactions across logistics, office, retail, residential and healthcare assets. In this conversation, Toby traces a career that took him from JLL in the mid-nineties through Morgan Stanley's private equity real estate team, where he was in the building next to Lehman Brothers when the financial crisis hit. He reflects on what that moment did to his understanding of risk, and how the lessons absorbed at Tishman Speyer under Jerry Spier shaped everything that followed. We explore the strategic evolution from Green Oak to BGO, now approaching $100 billion in AUM, why the merger with Bentall Kennedy made sense when so many others didn't, and what institutional investors are really demanding from managers today. Toby also makes a compelling case for why European real estate remains one of the most misunderstood opportunities in global capital markets right now and why location, location, location needs a serious update. And of course, I asked Toby the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy? Drop your thoughts in the comments. I would love to hear your take. Key Topics ✅ From JLL to Morgan Stanley — building the foundations of a 30 year career ✅ Lehman Brothers, the financial crisis and what it really teaches you about risk ✅ Green Oak to BGO — the merger strategy that changed everything ✅ Why Europe is misunderstood by global capital ✅ AI, data science and the US versus Europe gap in real estate investing Episode Chapters 00:00 - Introduction 00:09 - How Toby Got Into Real Estate 01:58 - Early Career at JLL 05:19 - Joining Morgan Stanley Real Estate 07:47 - Lessons from the Global Financial Crisis 09:49 - Tishman Speyer and Jerry Spier 12:42 - The Genesis of Green Oak 23:07 - Investment Strategy — Top Down Bottom Up 28:09 - Green Oak to BGO 31:36 - Sun Life and the Importance of a Capital Partner 33:57 - BGO's Five European Strategies 37:44 - Private Wealth Capital 42:27 - Location, Asset Quality and Power 44:01 - Is Europe Undervalued by Global Capital 46:20 - Succession Planning and Leadership 49:15 - AI and Data Science in Real Estate 54:00 - Attitude and Advice for the Next Generation 55:15 - The £500 Million Question The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers. 🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Mathieu Elshout to explore the journey that took him from environmental sciences into institutional real estate investing, and how he is now helping build the European property platform for one of Australia's fastest growing pension funds. Mathieu is Head of European Property at Aware Super UK. Before joining Aware Super, he spent more than a decade at PGGM managing European real estate investments through the Global Financial Crisis and subsequent recovery, and later worked at Patrizia where he helped develop the firm's sustainability and impact investing strategy. In this conversation, Mathieu shares how his early career began in environmental consultancy before gradually transitioning into the real estate sector. That background continues to shape the way he thinks about real assets today, particularly the growing importance of sustainability, long term value creation and the role real estate plays in the wider economy.   We discuss his time at PGGM and the experience of managing institutional real estate portfolios during the Global Financial Crisis. Mathieu explains how those years shaped his perspective on leverage, liquidity and market cycles, and why some of the most valuable lessons in investing are learned during periods of stress.   The conversation also explores his move to Patrizia and the development of its impact investing strategy. Mathieu explains how sustainability evolved from a niche topic into a core investment consideration, and why institutional investors increasingly see environmental and social outcomes as aligned with long term financial performance.   Finally, we discuss Aware Super's growing presence in Europe and how the Australian superannuation model is creating some of the largest and most influential pools of capital in global real estate. Mathieu explains how the fund is building its European portfolio through partnerships and platforms including investments in UK residential, Spanish rental housing and hospitality, and why alignment with operating partners is critical when deploying long term capital.   Key Topics Covered in This Episode ✅ From Environmental Science to Real Estate Mathieu's path from sustainability consultancy into institutional property investing. ✅ Lessons from the Global Financial Crisis What managing real estate portfolios through a market downturn teaches investors. ✅ Sustainability and Impact Investing How ESG and impact strategies became central to institutional real estate investing. ✅ Building Aware Super's European Platform Why the Australian pension fund model is expanding rapidly into global real estate. ✅ Investing Through Partnerships Why alignment with operating partners is essential for long term capital. EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction 01:32 From Environmental Science to Real Estate 06:45 Early Career and Moving into Institutional Investing 14:10 Managing Portfolios Through the Global Financial Crisis 25:34 Sustainability and Impact Investing at Patrizia 36:22 The Aware Super Platform and European Expansion 47:18 Partnerships, Platforms and Investment Strategy 56:40 Where Opportunities Exist in Today's Market 01:02:11 The £500M Investment Question And of course, I asked Mathieu the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy? If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take. The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers. 🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Michael Zerda to unpack a career that spans private equity real estate, distressed credit, structured capital and some of the most complex investment situations across Europe and the United States. Michael is Global Head of Real Estate at Santander Alternative Investments and CEO of Deva Capital, the real estate and corporate capital solutions investment arm of the business. Over a 25 year career, he has helped raise more than $5 billion of capital and overseen the deployment of more than $11 billion of equity across more than 200 transactions across Western Europe. In this conversation, Michael shares the story behind his journey from a Polish immigrant growing up in Texas to becoming a global real estate investor working across debt, equity and special situations. We explore how his early career developed through private equity real estate, distressed debt and high yield investing, and how those experiences shaped the way he approaches market cycles today.   We discuss why the widely predicted wave of real estate distress following the interest rate shock of 2022 has not materialised in the way many investors expected. Michael explains how stronger bank balance sheets, lower leverage and asset owners holding positions for longer have fundamentally changed the dynamics compared with previous cycles.   The conversation also explores where stress is actually appearing in the market today. Rather than dramatic distress events, Michael highlights a quieter liquidity squeeze affecting operators whose business models rely on transactions and capital raising. For investors able to deploy flexible capital across debt, structured equity or partnerships, this environment may present significant opportunities.   Finally, we discuss Michael's current role within Santander Alternative Investments, how the platform integrates real estate investing with corporate special situations, and where he sees opportunities emerging across Europe as markets adjust to the new interest rate environment.   Key Topics Covered in This Episode ✅ From Poland to Texas Michael's unconventional journey into global real estate investing. ✅ The Distress That Never Came Why the expected wave of distressed real estate has taken longer to appear. ✅ Liquidity Stress Beneath the Surface How fundraising challenges and fewer transactions are impacting operators. ✅ Debt, Equity and Special Situations Why flexible capital structures are becoming increasingly important. ✅ Where Opportunities Exist in Europe How different markets are behaving very differently in the current cycle.   EPISODE CHAPTERS 00:00 Introduction 01:08 From Poland to Texas 05:12 Discovering Real Estate Investing 11:04 Early Career in Private Equity Real Estate 19:42 Distressed Debt and Market Cycles 30:11 Why the Distress Wave Never Came 42:05 Liquidity Stress in Real Estate 51:15 Building Deva Capital 57:55 Where Opportunities Exist in Europe 01:02:48 Deep Value Investing in Today's Market 01:07:10 The £500M Investment Question   And of course, I asked Michael the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy? If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take. The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers. 🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Emma Cariaga, Chief Operating Officer at British Land, to unpack what it really takes to run one of the UK's largest listed real estate businesses during a period of structural change, capital market pressure, and sector consolidation. Emma is COO of British Land, a FTSE 100 property company with over 170 years of history and a portfolio concentrated in retail parks and London campuses. Having built her career from trainee land buyer to development director at Landsec before joining British Land, Emma brings deep operational and development experience across residential, mixed use, large scale regeneration and campus strategy, including the transformation of Canada Water into a major London campus. In this conversation, Emma explains how real estate has fundamentally shifted from a passive, rent collecting asset class into an operational business requiring agility, data, customer centricity and active asset management. We explore why British Land continued developing while others paused, how limited supply of prime London office space is driving rental growth, and why retail parks have repositioned themselves into a 99% occupied format built around affordability, flexibility and convenience. We also discuss the increasing importance of scale in listed real estate, the wave of M&A activity across the REIT sector, and whether smaller platforms can realistically survive in today's capital constrained environment. Emma shares insights on leadership, transitioning from being "on the tools" to operating at executive level, and why building non executive experience alongside an executive career can sharpen judgement. Finally, we look at British Land's strategic positioning, its new headquarters move onto one of its own campuses, and what the next chapter may look like for the listed real estate sector.   Key Topics Covered in This Episode ✅ From Land Buyer to FTSE 100 Leadership Emma's route into real estate and the lessons learned along the way. ✅ The Return of Prime London Offices Why top quality space near transport nodes is in limited supply and delivering rental growth. ✅ Retail Parks Repositioned How omni retailing and cost efficiency have driven 99% occupancy. ✅ Real Estate Has Become Operational Flex products, shorter leases and a more customer focused asset model. ✅ Scale, M&A and The Future of Listed Real Estate Why scale may now be essential in public markets. And of course, I asked Emma the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy? If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take. The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers. 🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Michela Hancock to unpack the journey from psychology graduate to property entrepreneur, and how she helped pioneer institutional build to rent in the UK long before it was widely accepted. Michela is the Co-Founder and CEO of Hilltop Property Partners. Before launching Hilltop, she worked across US and UK real estate, including early exposure to multifamily housing in the United States, and later bringing that institutional rental mindset into the UK market at a time when many believed renting would never become a lifestyle choice. In this conversation, Michela shares how growing up in a family business shaped her entrepreneurial mindset, and why she made the difficult decision to pivot away from a career in clinical psychology after years of study. That willingness to change direction led her into real estate development, where she combined US multifamily experience with a long term conviction around UK rental housing. We explore the early days of institutional build to rent in the UK, when pension funds and advisors were sceptical, and Michela was repeatedly told that everyone in Britain wanted to own rather than rent. She explains how she built conviction around demographic change, quality rental supply gaps and the concept of renting as a lifestyle choice. The conversation then moves into Hilltop's strategy, targeting the so called squeezed middle and key worker demographic, where the need for high quality, attainable rental housing is most acute. Michela outlines the viability pressures facing mid market rental delivery today, and why building now into a supply constrained environment could create long term opportunity. We also discuss capital raising in a global market where UK development competes for attention and allocation, and why resilience, persistence and finding the right partner can be more important than finding hundreds of investors. Michela shares candid lessons on entrepreneurship, including the advice she received that starting a business is like being in a rowboat with no oars, and why she chose to do it anyway. This is a conversation about conviction, mid market housing, entrepreneurship and building through difficult cycles. Key Topics Covered in This Episode ✅ From Psychology to Property Why Michela pivoted careers after years of study and what that taught her about risk and conviction. ✅ Early Institutional Build to Rent How she introduced US multifamily thinking into a sceptical UK market. ✅ Renting as a Lifestyle Choice Challenging the assumption that everyone wants to own. ✅ The Squeezed Middle Opportunity Targeting key workers and mid market rental housing in a viability constrained environment. ✅ Raising Capital in a Global Market Why alignment and persistence matter more than volume. ✅ Building Hilltop Property Partners Entrepreneurship, partnership and long term platform thinking. ✅ Resilience and Founder Mindset The "never leave your chair" philosophy and showing up every day. And of course, I asked Michela the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy? If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take. The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers. 🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Andrew Hynard to unpack a corporate career that spans more than three decades at JLL, the chief executive leadership of one of London's most prestigious estates, and a post-executive chapter advising some of the most interesting property businesses in the UK. Andrew spent the majority of his career at JLL focused on Capital Markets, ultimately becoming Deputy Chairman of the UK business. He later became Chief Executive of The Howard de Walden Estate, overseeing 90 acres in Marylebone with a portfolio heavily weighted toward private healthcare in and around Harley Street. Today, he advises businesses including Clipstone Investment Management, Howard Group, Orega, Taurus Developments and Love Ventures, a VC investor in early stage technology companies   In this conversation, Andrew reflects on growing up as the son of a surveyor in Hastings and deciding at just ten years old that property would be his path. We explore his early decision to specialise in investment rather than rotate through departments, and why he later regretted not gaining broader technical grounding despite accelerating his capital markets career. We go deep into his time at JLL, including the cultural and strategic forces behind the merger with King Sturge, how he navigated internal politics without burning bridges, and why playing the long game and treating people with decency became his defining leadership philosophy. Andrew also shares the transition from advisory to client side when he became CEO of Howard de Walden, what it really means to run a £3–4 billion estate in one of London's most complex submarkets, and why attracting world class healthcare operators like Cleveland Clinic was a defining moment. We then turn to today's market. Andrew gives a candid view on the state of UK real estate, the leadership reset across major advisory firms, where growth is actually coming from, why income will dominate returns for the foreseeable future, and why he believes we are approaching an inflection point rather than a falling knife moment. Finally, we explore his portfolio of advisory roles, his work in venture capital, and why mentoring the next generation is one of the most important investments he now makes.   Key Topics Covered in This Episode ✅ From Hastings to Deputy Chairman How Andrew set his sights on property at age ten and built a 30+ year capital markets career. ✅ The King Sturge Merger The first conversation that led to one of the most significant UK advisory mergers of the past two decades. ✅ Advisory vs Client Side What changes when you move from broker to principal and how to make that transition successfully. ✅ Leading the Howard de Walden Estate Healthcare, tenant mix strategy, stakeholder management and long term estate stewardship. ✅ The State of the UK Market Flat growth, tentative optimism, income driven returns and why 2025 could be a turning point. ✅ Leadership Change Across UK Agencies Why so many CEOs have changed and what the next generation must get right. ✅ Building a Post Executive Portfolio Advisory roles, venture capital, mentoring and giving back to the industry. And of course, I asked Andrew the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy? If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take. The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers. 🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Pavel Streblov to unpack how one of Central Europe's most established private real estate groups is entering the UK market, why London still matters, and what it really takes to build and deliver at scale as a developer in today's environment. Pavel is Business Director at Penta Real Estate, a privately owned investment group founded by five university classmates, with major interests spanning healthcare, banking, media, and large scale urban real estate. Pavel leads Penta's UK platform and is responsible for its expansion into London, bringing institutional capital, long term thinking, and a developer led mindset into a market facing structural supply constraints. In this conversation, Pavel explains why Penta chose to expand beyond its home markets in the Czech Republic and Slovakia, how the group reached scale domestically, and why development requires a fundamentally different approach to buying standing assets. We explore why building a credible pipeline matters more than one off success, and how local knowledge, council dynamics, and delivery track record determine whether a developer is taken seriously. We discuss Penta's first major UK move, a joint venture with Ballymore across two residential schemes totalling around 700 homes and approximately £700 million of development value. Pavel shares how Penta thinks about quality, amenity, and long term ownership, and why entering the market at the bottom of the cycle can create asymmetric opportunity when supply is constrained. The conversation also goes deep on the UK market itself. Pavel offers a blunt comparison between the UK and the Czech Republic, explaining how stamp duty, transaction costs, and mortgage pricing actively discourage ownership and push local buyers into renting. We unpack Gateway 2, viability pressure, delivery delays, and why flexibility and speed of decision making have become critical advantages in a market full of stalled and so called zombie projects. We close by looking ahead. Pavel explains how Penta is already using AI in early stage design and option testing, and why being a developer ultimately requires optimism. If you fully price every risk, nothing ever gets built.   Key Topics Covered in This Episode   ✅ Why Penta Chose the UK How scale limits in home markets pushed Penta to expand and why London stood out. ✅ Development Versus Standing Assets Why development is a long term commitment that requires local conviction and pipeline depth. ✅ The Ballymore Joint Venture 700 homes, £700m of value, and why scale matters from day one. ✅ Ownership, Stamp Duty and Market Friction Why UK tax structures discourage buying and reshape demand dynamics. ✅ Gateway 2 and Viability Pressure How regulation and delays are constraining supply and reshaping opportunity. ✅ Zombie Projects and Flexible Capital Why creativity, speed, and structure now unlock returns. ✅ AI and the Developer Mindset How technology supports decision making and why optimism still matters.   And of course, I asked Pavel the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy? If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take. The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers.   🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Dr. Kate Jarvis to unpack a journey that spans childhood instability, academic rigour, early machine learning, and the building of an AI native platform designed to fundamentally change how real asset decisions are made. Kate is CEO and co founder of Fifth Dimension, a technology company powering decision making across real assets, underwriting, asset management and portfolio strategy for some of the world's largest real estate and investment organisations. With a PhD from Stanford and more than fifteen years building machine learning backed businesses across the US, UK and Europe, Kate sits at the intersection of deep technical expertise and real world operational experience. In this conversation, Kate shares how growing up with her family home repossessed at a young age shaped her relationship with risk, security and institutions, and why those early experiences still influence how she builds businesses today. We explore her path through linguistics and early AI research, long before machine learning became mainstream, and how understanding language, prediction and inference laid the foundations for her later work in real assets. We discuss how Kate entered real estate through shared ownership and institutional capital deployment, where she encountered the reality of manual underwriting, endless spreadsheets, PDFs and investment committee drag. That frustration became the catalyst for Fifth Dimension. Kate explains why most AI tools fail in regulated, high stakes environments, why auditability matters more than automation, and how Fifth Dimension works alongside investment teams to amplify judgement rather than replace it. The conversation also looks ahead to what it really means to be AI native, who wins over the next decade, and why smaller, smarter teams may soon outperform incumbents with scale alone. Key Topics Covered in This Episode ✅ From Instability to Resilience How early life experiences shaped Kate's approach to risk, ambition and long term thinking. ✅ From Linguistics to Machine Learning Why language, prediction and inference sit at the heart of modern AI and real asset decision making. ✅ Why Real Estate Underwriting Is Broken The operational drag inside institutional real estate and why spreadsheets still dominate billion pound decisions. ✅ Building Fifth Dimension How shared ownership, manual IC processes and frustration with legacy workflows led to an AI native platform. ✅ AI as an Amplifier, Not a Replacement Why human judgement, creativity and context still matter and how AI should support decision makers, not remove them. And of course, I asked Kate the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy? If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take. The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers.   🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/

This week, I sat down with Ian Rickwood to unpack a career that spans entrepreneurship, private equity, consumer businesses, failed exits, market downturns, and ultimately the building of a long term real estate investment and capital platform. Ian is Founder and Chairman of Henley, a fast growing private equity real estate investment and venture capital business operating across the UK, Europe and the US. Over the last two decades, Henley has invested across residential, industrial, social and supported housing, urban regeneration and large scale development, working with institutional capital, high net worth investors and operating partners. In this conversation, Ian shares how early years in FMCG and entrepreneurial ventures laid the foundations for his approach to risk and execution, why scaling consumer businesses taught him lessons that many investors only learn later, and how navigating both successful exits and painful failures shaped his long term mindset. We discuss what it really feels like when a deal does not work, why some businesses are structurally broken regardless of management quality, and how those experiences directly influenced Ian's transition into real estate and private capital. Ian also explains how Henley was formed out of operational experience rather than financial engineering, why long dated and complex projects can offer an edge, and how the firm thinks about platform building, partnerships and capital alignment. We explore social and supported housing, urban regeneration at scale, the challenges of deploying capital through cycles, and why conviction becomes more important as markets tighten. The conversation also touches on US expansion, joint venture models, and what experienced operators look for when backing people rather than just projects.   Key Topics Covered in This Episode ✅ From Operator to Investor How early entrepreneurial and operating experience shaped Ian's approach to capital, risk and decision making. ✅ When Exits Do Not Go to Plan Why some businesses fail despite strong management and what those lessons teach long term investors. ✅ Building Henley Through Cycles How private equity thinking, real estate fundamentals and operational discipline came together. ✅ Complexity as a Competitive Advantage Why long dated, operationally intensive and misunderstood assets can outperform. ✅ Capital, Partnerships and Conviction How Henley approaches joint ventures, institutional capital and platform growth across markets. And of course, I asked Ian the big question: Who are the People, what Property, and which Place would you invest in if you had £500 million to deploy? If you have thoughts or questions about this episode, drop them in the comments. I'd love to hear your take. The People Property Place Podcast is powered by Rockbourne, recruiting leadership talent for real estate funds, owners, investors, and developers. 🔊 LIKE ➡ SHARE ➡ SUBSCRIBE 👉 http://peoplepropertyplace.com/