Working Within Systems – Thomas Legrand, Rachel Lilley & Wakanyi Macharia-Hoffman

In this episode of the mini-series on systems change, guest host Jamie Bristow turns the lens around. Rather than beginning with a particular inner approach and asking what it might offer, the conversation starts with the system itself: the patterns, power dynamics and meaning-making structures that shape the crises we face. Joined by Rachel Lilley, Thomas Legrand, and Wakanyi Macharia-Hoffman, Jamie explores why contemplative and embodied approaches may be vital not only for shifting deep leverage points such as worldview and values, but also for helping systems practitioners navigate complexity, bias, and uncertainty. From food systems and public policy to AI, Ubuntu, and embodied systems leadership, the discussion ranges widely while staying grounded in a central question: what does it take to work with systems in ways that are more relational, reflective, and transformative? The result is a rich conversation about inner-led change, viewed through a broader systems lens. Thomas Legrand is Lead Advisor for the UNDP-convened Conscious Food Systems Alliance, and the author of Politics of Being: wisdom and science for a new development paradigm. Rachel Lilley is an Associate Professor at the University of Birmingham, where she is programme director of the MSc in Systems Thinking and Leadership and pioneers the integration of embodied practice and inner inquiry into systems practice. Wakanyi Macharia-Hoffman is an Ubuntu philosophy thinker, the founder of African Folktales Project and the director of African AI Design Research at Inclusive AI Lab, Utrecht University. , where she bridges indigenous African knowledge for inner human development with AI design ethics.   Full show notes and resources

Jon Kabat-Zinn didn't invent MBSR as a stress reduction programme. He created it as a way of meeting suffering—individual, collective, planetary—with greater clarity and care. Somewhere in the journey to the mainstream, that wider vision narrowed in the public conception. This episode is, in part, a return to the source. Guest host Jamie Bristow is joined by Jon Kabat-Zinn, Paula Ramírez Díazgranados and Liane Stephan to explore what mindfulness becomes when it is brought back into relationship with the world: with trauma and conflict, with institutions and food systems, with the tragedy of ecological crisis. Their conversation moves through medicine, humanitarian response and sustainability work, but the deeper thread running through all of it is relational: the question of what contemplative practice can offer when the patient is not only the individual, but the communities and systems we are part of.   The result is a wide-ranging and genuinely hopeful conversation about resilience, interdependence and the fuller promise of mindfulness in a time that needs more than personal wellbeing. Jon Kabat-Zinn is internationally known for his work as a scientist, writer, and meditation teacher engaged in bringing mindfulness into the mainstream of medicine and society including MBSR (Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction). He is professor of medicine emeritus at the University of Massachusetts Medical School and author of numerous books, including Full Catastrophe Living, Arriving at Your Own Door, Coming to Our Senses, and Mindfulness Meditation for Pain Relief Paula Ramírez Díazgranados is a Colombian anthropologist, peacebuilder, therapist, and somatic facilitator whose work integrates trauma-sensitive mindfulness, Somatic Experiencing, ancestral practice, and cultural and ecological wisdom. Since 2009, she has worked across more than 20 countries with individuals, communities, and humanitarian teams navigating trauma, systemic violence, displacement, and recovery. She is co-director of RESPIRA in Colombia and Breathe/Emerge International, organizations that combine peacebuilding and mental health through the restoration of human resilience. Liane Stephan is the co-founder and CEO of Awaris GmbH and co-founder of the Inner Green Deal. With more than three decades of experience in leadership development, mindfulness, systemic organizational development, and culture change, she supports leaders, teams, and organizations in cultivating resilience, awareness, and sustainable transformation. She is also co-author of The Resilient Culture: How Collective Resilience Leads to Business Success. Full show notes and resources

In this panel conversation, guest host Jamie Bristow is joined by Katrin Kaufer,  Martin Kalungu-Banda and Megan Seneque to explore Theory U and the wider field of awareness-based systems change. Developed through the Presencing Institute, Theory U is one of the most widely applied approaches to systems change that explicitly integrates contemplative practice with collective transformation. Together, they examine how this work helps people move beyond habitual responses, deepen the quality of attention and relationship, and create the conditions for new futures to emerge. The conversation ranges from leadership and social innovation to public health, higher education, research, and global systems work, while also asking harder questions about evidence, integrity, access, and scale. The result is a rich and searching exploration of what it means to work with complexity in ways that are rigorous, relational, and open to emergence. Dr. Katrin Kaufer, is co-founding member and managing director of the Presencing Institute. She is also director of the Just Money program at MIT's Community Innovation Lab, CoLab, where she also teaches.  Martin Kalungu-Banda, is a leadership and organizational development practitioner who works across business, government, and civil society. He's visiting fellow at Oxford Said Business School, a core faculty member with the Presencing Institute and co-founder of the Ubuntu Lab Institute, bringing a strong practice lens on adaptive leadership and systems change.  Dr. Megan Seneque, is an associate with the Presencing Institute and a member of the editorial team with the Journal of Awareness-Based Systems Change hosted by the Presencing Institute. She is also a research associate at the University of Roehampton in London, an honorary fellow with the Crawford School of Public Policy at the Australian National University.

In the second panel conversation of this mini-series, guest host Jamie Bristow is joined by Laura Calderón de la Barca, Kazu Haga and Thomas Hübl to explore the rising significance of trauma healing for systems change. As trauma moves from the margins to the mainstream, the conversation asks what we are really naming when we speak of trauma, and how unprocessed experience shapes not only individual lives, but relationships, communities and whole societies. Together, they reflect on the growing recognition that healing need not be a solitary pursuit, and that collective, systemic and intergenerational approaches may be vital in an age of compounding crises. The result is a thoughtful and far-reaching conversation about whether our capacity to relate wisely to trauma may help determine how we meet the pressures of a rapidly changing and imperiled world. Laura Calderón de la Barca, PhD is a psychotherapist specialized in collective, systemic and intergenerational trauma, as well as a collective healing researcher, educator, consultant, and lead author of Healing Systems, the #1 read article of the Stanford Social Innovation Review for 2024 Kazu Haga is an educator and practitioner with over 25 years of experience in nonviolence, restorative justice and trauma healing work, and author of Fierce Vulnerability: Healing from Trauma, Emerging from Collapse.  Thomas Hübl, PhD, is a renowned teacher, author, and international facilitator who works within the complexity of systems and cultural change by integrating the core insights of the great wisdom traditions and mysticism with the discoveries of science.

In the first panel conversation of this mini-series, guest host Jamie Bristow is joined by Shayontoni Ghosh, Chris Johnstone, Stephanie Kaza and Phoebe Tickell to explore the legacy and living relevance of Joanna Macy’s Work That Reconnects - a pioneering contemplative process that helps people face ecological and social crisis without shutting down. Together, they reflect on how this work moves from gratitude, grief and reconnection into courage, imagination and action. They examine Joanna’s enduring influence, the evolution of Active Hope, the workshop practices that have touched lives around the world, and the challenge of adapting this work across cultures, generations and institutions. The result is a rich, energising conversation about how inner transformation can strengthen our collective response to a world in trouble. Shayontoni Ghosh is a writer, theatre-maker and facilitator, who is on the staff team at the Work That Reconnects Network.  Chris Johnstone is a resilience specialist involved with the Work that Reconnects for over 40 years, and co-author of the book Active Hope with Joanna Macy. Stephanie Kaza is Professor Emerita from the University of Vermont (UVM) and the author/editor of many books and articles on Buddhist environmental thought, including A Wild Love for the World: Joanna Macy and the Work of Our Time. Phoebe Tickell is a scientist and social entrepreneur whose mentorship by Joanna helped her to create Moral Imaginations, an organisation that is building a movement of change agents through the training of moral imagination.

In this episode, Mind & Life co-producer Phil Walker speaks with writer and policy advisor Jamie Bristow as a prelude to our upcoming mini-series on systems change. Over the coming weeks, Jamie will serve as guest host for five episodes with expert panelists diving into a variety of topics on contemplative based systems change. As our world grows in complexity, we also find ourselves more interconnected than ever with profound challenges that often require cooperation across diverse groups with different values or goals. Systems change refers to efforts to shift the underlying structures, relationships, power dynamics, and mindsets that shape how complex systems behave. These efforts increasingly recognize that inner dimensions—such as awareness, values, and ways of relating—play a critical role in enabling lasting change. In this interview, Jamie shares key concepts of systems change and highlight areas that will be explored throughout the five episodes of the mini-series: The Work that Reconnects: Enlivening our response with active hope Healing Systems: Integrating trauma for social change  Theory U: Guiding awareness-based systems change  Social and Ecological Mindfulness: Connecting personal and planetary health  Mindset Shift: Transforming whole systems with contemplative approaches

Since this podcast launched, Wendy Hasenkamp has guided listeners through 84 in-depth conversations, bringing warmth, curiosity, and intellectual depth to every episode. After five years with the show and over 13 years with the Mind & Life Institute, Wendy is stepping into a new chapter, returning to school and pursuing studies to become a clinical herbalist. While we’ll miss her deeply, we’re excited about this new path for her, where she will surely continue to share her wisdom and guide others toward greater well-being and connection. In this special episode, Mind & Life co-producer Phil Walker sits down with Wendy for a conversation reflecting on her time as host—the insights gained, the themes that emerged, and the questions that continue to inspire her. They cover many topics, including: her own path into contemplative science; finding a home in the Mind & Life community; the dialogue between Buddhism and science; supporting science education for Tibetan monastics; science communication, nuance & mindfulness hype; how this podcast was born and evolved over time; the importance of open-mindedness and critique in science; some key themes that emerged from years of conversations with leading thinkers and scholars; reckoning with an interdependent self; the problem of othering; mind-body connection; reflections on where contemplative science has been and where it’s going; interconnectedness with nature; and her next steps in the world of herbalism and holistic medicine. Full show notes and resources

Enjoy this episode with renowned meditation teacher, author, and creator of Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR), Jon Kabat-Zinn. This spacious and personal conversation is full of insights on a wide range of topics, including: what drew him to meditation; his development of and vision for Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction (MBSR); the mystery of the line between the inside and outside of any system; adapting Buddhist practices for Western audiences; how mindfulness has been taken up in society, and science as a main driver; moving from "me" to "we"; the challenges of repeatability in scientific studies of meditation; weaving together art and science; and how 50+ years of meditation has changed him. Full show notes and resources  

In this episode, Wendy speaks with Zen Buddhist teacher and author Roshi Joan Halifax. A pioneer in the field of end-of-life care, Roshi Joan was instrumental in developing the dialogue between science and Buddhism, and has been an advocate for engaged Buddhism, social activism, and compassion in response to today's crises. This conversation covers many topics, including: the birth of dialogues between the Dalai Lama and scientists; how our minds are "enactive"; compassion as emergent and dependent on context; the trainable factors that set the stage for compassion; the importance of embodiment in health care; non-referential compassion; interdependence, compassion, and climate change; working with dying people; how letting go is safe; clinical use of psychedelics; and reflections on the field of contemplative science. Full show notes and resources  

In this episode from the Mind & Life archive, Wendy spoke with the renowned Buddhist practitioner and author Matthieu Ricard. Matthieu was integral to the founding of contemplative science, serving as both a participant and co-investigator in many early studies, and has deep expertise in compassion, altruism, and well-being. This conversation covers many topics, including: his roots in both science and Buddhism, and his appreciation for rigorous inquiry; his role as a participant and collaborator in contemplative science; lessons from research on compassion vs. empathy; how the self shows up (or doesn't) in compassion; links between self-focus and vulnerability; hedonia, eudiamonia, and self; altruism and our current crises; reconciling three time scales of concern; sentience, life, and interdependence; caring for our whole interconnected system; the practice of awe; using photography to share basic human goodness; balancing fame and monastic life; and a poignant example of his own personal experience of care. Full show notes and resources