S04E12 - Paul Kirschner and Nidhi Sachdeva on The Hidden Difference Between Good Teaching and Expert Teaching

In this episode, Brendan Lee is joined by renowned educational psychologist Professor Paul Kirschner and teacher educator Dr Nidhi Sachdeva to discuss their new book, Becoming an Expert Teacher. Together they dismantle the myth that great teaching is an innate talent and explore why simply racking up years in the classroom often leads to a performance plateau rather than true expertise. Listeners will discover why the teaching profession has a completely inverted practice to performance ratio compared to elite athletes and how to realistically implement genuine deliberate practice during a busy school week. The episode also highlights the critical difference between surface-level brooding and the structured reflection required to build rich mental models. You will also hear the fascinating backstory behind Paul's famous 2006 paper Why Minimal Guidance During Instruction Does Not Work. Whether you are a new graduate or an experienced educator, this conversation provides a practical and research-backed roadmap to continuously refine your craft and master the unexpected moments in the classroom. * Use the code 26AEV2 to receive a 20% discount on Becoming an Expert Teacher Resources mentioned: Becoming an Expert Teacher (Book by Paul Kirschner and Nidhi Sachdeva) Science of Learning (Substack by Nidhi Sachdeva) How Learning Happens (Book by Paul Kirschner and Carl Hendrick) 10 Steps to Complex Learning (Book by Jeroen van Merriënboer) "Why Minimal Guidance During Instruction Does Not Work" (2006 Paper by Paul Kirschner, John Sweller, and Richard Clark) "Should There Be a Three-Strikes Rule Against Pure Discovery Learning?" (2004 Paper by Richard Mayer, referred to as his "three strikes" paper) How Teaching Happens (Book by Paul Kirschner, Carl Hendrick, and Jim Heal) Donald Schön's 1982 work on teachers as "reflective practitioners" (A reference to his book The Reflective Practitioner) Paul Kirschner:  Twitter/X: @P_A_Kirschner  Linkedin: @paulkirschner  Website: kirschnered.nl  Substack: paulkirschner173727.substack.com   Nidhi Sachdeva:  Twitter/X: @nsachdeva  Linkedin: @nidhi-sachdeva-toronto  Substack: scienceoflearning.substack.com   Brendan Lee: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website:learnwithlee.net Substack: knowledgeforteachers.substack.com/   Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast

How does a large, busy school move from "islands of excellence" to a coherent, low-variance instructional model? In this episode, Brendan Lee sits down with staff from the Junior School of Trinity Anglican College, Albury— Simon Fairall (Deputy Principal - Junior School), Lauren Naldrett (Dean of Studies - Junior School) and Kirby McDonald (Classroom teacher and Practice and Pedagogy lead)—to unpack their multi-year journey into the Science of Learning. We dive deep into how to manage teacher cognitive load by strategically sharing curriculum planning and resource development. The practical reality of navigating change management, moving from individual teacher flair to system-wide instructional coherence and how applying the instructional hierarchy and deliberate practice routines can fundamentally shift classroom engagement.  This conversation is a masterclass in building a culture where research-grounded practice and a deep sense of professional belonging go hand-in-hand. Resources mentioned: Facts on Fire (by Dr Brian Poncy) La Trobe University AIS NSW Literacy Project You can connect with Trinity Anglican College: Instagram: @trinityanglicancollege/ Facebook: @TrinityAnglicanCollegeAlburyWodonga Website: https://www.trinityac.nsw.edu.au/   You can connect with Brendan: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website:learnwithlee.net Substack: knowledgeforteachers.substack.com/   Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast

In this episode of Knowledge for Teachers, Brendan Lee is joined by Dr Haili Hughes. Haili is an Associate Professor at La Trobe University with over twenty years of experience leading secondary schools in England. They explore the realities of implementing evidence-informed instruction and how school leaders can avoid the lethal mutations that turn sound cognitive science into rigid compliance checklists. Listeners will discover why the rise of AI actually makes a teacher's deep subject knowledge more critical than ever. Haili also breaks down the stark difference between awkward roleplay and highly effective instructional rehearsal. Finally, she explains why true teacher wellbeing is never about cake in the staffroom, but rather sensible systems and genuine professionalism. This is a must-listen for educators seeking practical and research-grounded strategies to drive real improvement.   Resources mentioned: Teaching WalkThrus Tant, Maddox & Phillipsi - The Science of Learning and Generative AI: A Guide for Secondary Teachers Jamie Clark's one-pager on problems and principles Direct Instruction videos Rosenshine's Principles of Instruction Coaching for Adaptive Expertise (Upcoming book) Doug Lemov - Teach Like a Champion Oak National shared resources Ochre Education shared resources EEF (Education Endowment Foundation) research on implementation and professional development AERO (Australian Education Research Organisation) classroom resources Resources from subject associations (such as the English Association, Historical Association, Royal Society of Physics and Royal Society of Chemistry) You can connect with Haili: Substack: @hailihughes X / Twitter: @HughesHaili Bluesky: @hugheshaili.bsky.social LinkedIn: Haili Hughes   You can connect with Brendan: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website:learnwithlee.net Substack: knowledgeforteachers.substack.com/   Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast

If your school's intervention system feels like an endless treadmill, this episode is a must-listen. Dr Sarah Brown (President of System Impact Consulting) and Dr Stephanie Stollar (Creator of the Reading Science Academy) join the podcast to dismantle the most common mistakes schools make with Multi-Tiered Systems of Support (MTSS).     In this episode, you will learn why the MTSS pyramid is actually a map of school resources rather than a tool for sorting students. Stephanie reveals the dangers of the "screen to intervene" trap, explaining why we must evaluate core Tier 1 instruction before pulling kids into intervention groups. We also discuss why expecting teachers to overhaul their practice without structural support ignores the reality that adults go through an acquisition stage of learning too. Get ready to shift your focus from admiring the problem to taking definitive instructional action. Resources mentioned: MTSS for Reading Improvement by Dr Sarah Brown and Dr Stephanie Stollar MTSS for Reading Improvement - Free Reproducibles Routines for Reading Results (upcoming second edition of Teaching Struggling and At-Risk Readers) Effective Universal Instruction book by Bradley C. Niebling, Kimberly Gibbons and Sarah Brown StephanieStollarConsulting.com System Impact Consulting You can connect with Sarah: Linkedin: @sarah-brown-ph-d-9177b516 Website: systemimpactconsulting.com   You can connect with Stephanie: Twitter/X: @SStollar6 Facebook: @StephanieStollarConsulting Linkedin: @stephanie-stollar Website: stephaniestollarconsulting.com   You can connect with Brendan: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website:learnwithlee.net Substack: knowledgeforteachers.substack.com/   About Sarah Dr. Sarah Brown is a consultant and co-author of the books, Effective Universal Instruction, MTSS for Reading Improvement, and Routines for Reading Results. She empowers schools through her MTSS Data Academy. She’s served in a variety of educational roles, including Bureau Chief leading Special Education and MTSS implementation for Iowa, Special Education Director, Professional Learning Administrator, and School Psychologist. Dr. Brown is passionate about empowering systems to improve outcomes for every learner. She splits her time between the midwest and the southwest and her greatest accomplishment to date is toilet-training her cat, Oliver.   About Stephanie Stephanie is passionate about using MTSS as the framework for helping all students become skilled readers. She is the co-author of the books MTSS for Reading Improvement, Promoting Effective MTSS Implementation, Reading Assessment Done Right and Routines for Reading Results.    Stephanie is creator of the Reading Science Academy, co-creator of MTSS CollecAve, and serves on the boards of the Evidence Advocacy Center and the International MTSS Association.    Her past roles include Assistant Professor, Vice President of Professional Learning at Acadience Learning, and School Psychologist. Stephanie believes that supporting all educators to have deep knowledge about reading is foundational to high achievement for every student.   Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast

In this episode Brendan Lee is joined by Professor Stuart Kime, a leading voice in evidence-informed school improvement and co-founder of Evidence-Based Education. We dive into the Great Teaching Toolkit and explore how to bridge the knowing-doing gap in professional learning. Knowing the research is important, but it does not automatically translate into changing your teaching habits.  Stuart explains how to hold a mirror up to our practice using objective tools. You will discover why video feedback is critical for bypassing our expert blind spots and how student surveys can reveal the true reality of your classroom environment. They also discuss why schools need to move away from standalone courses and build a supportive culture of continuous improvement. If you want to turn evidence into concrete action this conversation is essential listening.  Resources mentioned: Evidence-Based Education (EBE) The Great Teaching Toolkit The Great Teaching Toolkit: Evidence Review (2020) The Great Teacher Toolkit: School Environment and Leadership Evidence Review (2022) EEF Teaching and Learning Toolkit (Steve Higgins) You can connect with Stuart: Twitter: @profkime Linkedin: @stuart-kime-ebe Website: evidencebased.education   You can connect with Brendan: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website: learnwithlee.net   Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast

In this episode of Knowledge for Teachers, host Brendan Lee sits down with Karen Robertson, national CEO of Life Ed Australia, to explore the escalating youth health crisis and the critical role of health literacy. Far from just kicking a ball around, modern preventative health requires a robust, evidence-backed approach. Listeners will discover surprising data from the frontlines of education, including why 81 per cent of children aged two to five are already using the internet. Karen unpacks how to transition from traditional, fear-based warnings to a strength-based curriculum that builds critical thinking. Crucially, you will learn how Life Ed carries the load for time-poor educators, with research revealing that 89 per cent of teachers report significantly improved confidence in embedding wellbeing strategies post-visit. Tune in for a thoughtful discussion packed with practical, research-grounded insights to help your students truly thrive.   You can connect with Karen: Linkedin: @karen-robertson-mtc Website: lifeed.org.au    You can connect with Brendan: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website:learnwithlee.net Substack: knowledgeforteachers.substack.com/ Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast

In this special follow-up to the popular episode with Dr. Kent Johnson and Andrew Kieta on the Morningside Model that Guarantees Two Years of Growth in One, host Brendan Lee draws out the practical learning science expertise of university lecturer Dr Russ Fox and MTSS leader Karina Stocker. This conversation bridges the macro principles of the Morningside model directly with the reality of the classroom through the lens of the Instructional Hierarchy. Listeners will hear Karina and Russ break down how to spot the hidden "tool skills" that frequently block student progress in reading and mathematics. They challenge common misconceptions about explicit instruction, detailing why the "We Do" phase must be a dynamic, data-driven interaction to build accurate acquisition. Plus, they share how to transition students into fluency building by measuring the rate of correct responses rather than simple percentages. If you’re keen to delve deeper into the key mechanisms behind the Morningside Model of Generative Instruction and more, then this conversation is essential listening. Resources mentioned: MorningsideAcademy.org Ryan O’Donnell’s documentary about Morningside Academy: The Morningside Model of Generative Instruction Thomas Gilbert’s Mathetics S01E01 – Dr. Russ Fox on building relationships, routines and using reinforcers  Trina Spencer: Learning How Learning Works Helps Teachers Teach  Mastery Schools Australia Brendan Lee: "Engineering the Aha! When Discovery Learning Actually Works" Stocker, K. L., Fox, R. A., Swain, N. R., & Leif, E. S. (2024). Between the lines: Integrating the science of reading and the science of behavior to improve reading outcomes for Australian children. Behavior and Social Issues, 33(1), 504-531. You can connect with Karina: Linkedin You can connect with Russ: Linkedin   You can connect with Brendan: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website: learnwithlee.net Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast  

As teachers, we’ve all felt the frustration of watching a student fall through the cracks because the curriculum is moving faster than they are. We’ve all wondered: how do we actually catch them up without just ‘watering down’ the work? In this episode, Brendan Lee is joined by Dr. Kent Johnson and Andrew Kieta from Morningside Academy. What makes this conversation so special is that it’s not just theory. Morningside has spent over 40 years in their Seattle lab school proving that these challenges have answers. They have essentially "cracked the code" on the most persistent problems we face in schools. They dive into their world-renowned model of Generative Instruction, exploring how they use "Precision Teaching" to build effortless fluency and why they group students by achievement rather than age. You’ll learn why a student who is 100% accurate can still be struggling and how a "Money Back Guarantee" on student growth is actually possible when you engineer instruction with this much precision. This is a deep look at how we can stop "praying and spraying" our teaching and start giving every student the success they deserve. Resources mentioned: MorningsideAcademy.org Morningside Summer Institute John Dewey: How We Think Lev Vygotsky Michael Maloney Israel Goldiamond Tom Gilbert - Mathetics Ogden Lindsley Carl Binder Owen White Norris Haring B.F. Skinner Jerome Bruner Fred Keller Brendan Lee: "Engineering the Aha! When Discovery Learning Actually Works" Ryan O’Donnell’s documentary about Morningside Academy: The Morningside Model of Generative Instruction You can connect with Kent: Linkedin You can connect with Andrew: Linkedin   You can connect with Brendan: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website: learnwithlee.net   Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast

In this episode of the Knowledge for Teachers podcast we explore how to transform classroom outcomes using the science of behaviour. Brendan Lee chats with Dr. Kimberley Nix Berens, a scientist-practitioner and the founder of Fit Learning. Together, they unpack the role of behaviour science in education and why observable, measurable learning matters. You’ll hear why fluency—not just accuracy—is the true indicator of mastery, how precision teaching can transform the way we assess and respond to students, and why many common approaches to instruction fall short of producing lasting outcomes.   Kim also challenges some widely held assumptions, including the limits of discovery learning and the over-reliance on grades as meaningful measures of progress.   If you’re looking for practical, research-informed ways to sharpen your teaching and better support every learner, this episode offers a powerful new lens. Resources mentioned: https://fitlearning.com/ Blindspots by Kimberly Berens The Technology of Teaching by B.F. Skinner Theory of Instruction by Sigfried Engelman and Doug Carnine The Standard Celeration Chart The Morningside Model of Generative Instruction (Johnson, Street, Kieta and Robbins) Program of International Student Assessment (PISA) National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) FitLite (and the FitLite Literacy model) Scientist Educator Training Series  You can connect with Kimberly: Twitter: @KimberlyBerens5 Instagram: @drkberens Linkedin Website: https://www.drkimberlyberens.com/   You can connect with Brendan: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website: learnwithlee.net   Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast   About Kimberly  Kimberly Nix Berens, Ph.D., is the Founder of Fit Learning and CEO of Fit Learning Online.  She co-created a powerful system of instruction based in behavior science and the Technology of Teaching, which has transformed the learning abilities of thousands of children worldwide. For more than 20 years, her system of instruction has produced at least one year’s worth of academic growth in only 40 hours of training.  Her learning programs effectively target such essential areas as early learning skills, basic classroom readiness, phonemic awareness, reading fluency, comprehension, inferential language, basic and advanced mathematics, logical problem solving, grammar, and expressive writing.  From her early beginnings in a broom closet at the University of Nevada – Reno, Dr. Berens has helped grow Fit Learning to an organization with centers located throughout the US, Canada, Europe, and Australia.  In her current role as CEO of Fit Learning Online, she focuses on increasing access for learners living in regions without a Fit Learning center. Dr. Berens is a frequent invited speaker and a contributor to many popular press publications such as Thrive Global, 74 Million, and Medium.  Her first book, Blind Spots: Why Students Fail and the Science That Can Save Them, was released in October of 2020. 

In this episode of the Knowledge for Teachers podcast, Brendan Lee is joined by Dr. Trina Spencer, a leading researcher in language and literacy and the co-developer of Story Champs. They dive deep into why oral language is the true, widely misunderstood foundation of reading comprehension. Dr. Spencer challenges the status quo of literacy instruction by unpacking why we absolutely shouldn't wait for skilled decoding before teaching comprehension. Tune in as they explore: Why the idea that academic language develops naturally is a damaging myth. Why some students struggle despite strong phonics teaching How just 30 minutes of explicit spoken language instruction daily can close the achievement gap. Why expecting teachers to act as instructional designers is an unfair burden. If you are looking for practical, evidence-based ways to boost your students' language skills without adding impossible workloads, this conversation is a must-listen. Resources mentioned: Story Champs trinaspencer.com/ CUBED DYMOND MAP (Measuring Academic Progress) Spencer, T. D. (2021). Ten instructional design efforts to help behavior analysts take up the torch of direct instruction. Behavior Analysis in Practice, 14(3), 816-830. Pamela Snow, Why the Big Six should actually be the Big Five. Doug Peterson You can connect with: Twitter/X: @TrinaDSpencer2 Facebook Instagram: @trinastoolbox/ Linkedin Website: https://trinaspencer.com/   You can connect with Brendan: Twitter/X: @learnwithmrlee Facebook: @learningwithmrlee Linkedin: @brendan-lee-kft Website: learnwithlee.net   Support the Knowledge for Teachers Podcast:  https://www.patreon.com/KnowledgeforTeachersPodcast