KOL465: Sheldon Richman on Corporations, Limited Liability, Price Controls, Thickism, Abortion, Pipes

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 465. On stupid and confused "thickism" see various posts under tag thickism, and Cory Massimino, "Libertarianism is More than Anti-Statism," C4SS (April 8th, 2014). GROK SHOWNOTES: [0:00–9:16] In this engaging episode of the Kinsella on Liberty podcast, Stephan Kinsella and Sheldon Richman tackle the contentious issue of pharmaceutical price controls under Trump’s executive order, questioning their equivalence to traditional price controls that distort markets. Kinsella, drawing on his extensive critique of intellectual property (Patents and Pharmaceuticals, 2023; Patents, Pharma, Government: The Unholy Alliance, 2024), argues that patents create artificial monopolies, so price controls countering these are not standard interventions but responses to government-granted privileges. Richman highlights FDA-imposed costs, which patents partially offset, though Kinsella counters that these costs are overstated, citing lower drug prices abroad (Drug Reimportation, 2009). They endorse reimportation as a market-based solution, referencing Connor O’Keefe’s analysis (Mises: How Trump Can Lower Drug Prices Without Price Controls, 2025), but criticize Trump’s coercive tactics as resembling a protection racket (Trump’s Worst Idea: Pharmaceuticals, 2025) (0:02–6:00). The discussion also critiques antitrust laws and secondary regulations, with Richman warning against Kevin Carson’s approach of layering controls atop privileges (Kevin Carson on Confiscating Property from the Rich, 2016) (6:00–9:16). [9:16–1:13:35] The conversation shifts to a robust defense of the corporate form, addressing left-libertarian criticisms of limited liability and shareholder responsibility. Kinsella, aligning with Robert Hessen’s contractual view and his own writings (Corporate Personhood, Limited Liability, and Double Taxation, 2011; Left-Libertarians, Corporations, Expropriating Stakeholders, 2008), argues that limited liability is not a privilege but a logical outcome of action-based responsibility, where shareholders are not liable unless causally responsible for torts (Van Dun on Freedom versus Property and Hostile Encirclement, 2009). Richman decries the pejorative use of “corporate” by figures like Roderick Long, rejecting claims that corporations inherently rely on state favoritism (Comment on Left-Libertarianism on Roderick Long’s Sub-Ex Dep Post, 2009) (9:16–36:01). They explore thick libertarianism, agreeing that individualism connects to broader values but remains distinct, and critique Walter Block’s evictionism on abortion, with Kinsella arguing fetuses are not trespassers due to maternal actions (Together Strong Debate with Walter Block, 2022) (36:01–1:13:35). A lighthearted discussion on pipe tobacco reflects their commitment to personal liberty, underscoring their broader libertarian principles (Wombatrons: Why I Am a Left-Libertarian, 2009). https://youtu.be/5YaTsoDH9Eg Grok detailed shownotes: Detailed Segment Summary for Show Notes Segment 1: Price Controls, Patents, and Reimportation (0:02–9:16) Description and Summary: Kinsella andMemphis-based Robert Hessen and Sheldon Richman discuss Trump’s pharmaceutical price control executive order, questioning its implications. Kinsella, per his writings (Patents and Pharmaceuticals, 2023; Patents, Pharma, Government: The Unholy Alliance, 2024), argues that patents create monopoly prices, so price controls countering these aren’t standard market distortions, as patents themselves are government-granted (IP vs. Antitrust, 2005). Richman notes FDA costs inflate drug prices, but Kinsella cites lower prices abroad to argue these costs are overstated (Drug Reimportation, 2009) (0:02–2:28). They advocate reimportation, citing Connor O’Keefe’s market-based approach (Mises: How Trump Can Lower Drug Prices Without Price Controls, 2025), and criticize Trump’s coercive tactics as a protection racket (Trump’s Worst Idea: Pharmaceuticals, 2025) (2:28–6:00). The segment critiques antitrust laws and secondary regulations, with Richman comparing them to Kevin Carson’s flawed approach (Kevin Carson on Confiscating Property from the Rich, 2016) (6:00–9:16). Segment 2: Defending the Corporate Form (9:16–24:04) Description and Summary: The discussion shifts to corporations, with Kinsella and Richman defending Robert Hessen’s view that corporations are contractual, not state-privileged. Kinsella argues shareholders aren’t liable for torts unless causally responsible, aligning with his causal responsibility principle (Van Dun on Freedom versus Property and Hostile Encirclement, 2009) (9:16–11:51). They explore Hessen’s rejection of respondeat superior, noting corporate assets and insurance cover damages, making shareholder liability moot (11:51–15:37). The segment challenges the assumption that shareholders are “owners” responsible for corporate actions, emphasizing action-based liability (15:37–24:04). Segment 3: Anti-Corporate Sentiment and Accountability (24:04–40:03) Description and Summary: Kinsella and Richman critique left-libertarian hostility toward corporations, with Richman decrying the pejorative use of “corporate” by figures like Glenn Greenwald. They reject claims of corporate privilege, particularly around limited liability, arguing it’s not a subsidy but a logical outcome of action-based responsibility (24:04–29:34). They challenge Roderick Long’s example of a VPN company’s misconduct, asserting markets and corporate structures foster accountability via stock watchers and reputation (29:34–35:56). They propose updating Hessen’s work, humorously suggesting Grok could draft it, reflecting their pro-market stance (Decouple Trade and IP Protection, 2024) (35:56–40:03). Segment 4: Pipe Tobacco and Regulatory Impacts (40:03–56:01) Description and Summary: The conversation lightens as Kinsella and Richman discuss pipe tobacco preferences, including cherry, vanilla custard, and Latakia blends. They note FDA regulations and Trump’s tariffs affect tobacco imports, but recent FDA personnel changes may ease restrictions, aligning with their anti-regulatory views (40:03–51:04). Richman explains his zero-nicotine vaping, reflecting personal liberty in consumption choices (51:04–56:01). This segment underscores their resistance to overregulation, consistent with Kinsella’s broader critiques (Price Controls, Antitrust, and Patents, 2011). Segment 5: Thick Libertarianism, Abortion, and Obligations (56:01–1:13:35) Description and Summary: The episode explores thick libertarianism, with Kinsella agreeing that individualism links to values like empathy but remains distinct from economics or ethics. They critique Roderick Long’s view that libertarianism implies opposing non-aggressive harms like bullying (56:01–1:02:28). Kinsella challenges Walter Block’s evictionism on abortion, arguing fetuses aren’t trespassers due to maternal actions, consistent with his debate with Block (Together Strong Debate with Walter Block, 2022) and his action-based responsibility framework (1:02:28–1:10:29). They discuss positive obligations, rejecting unchosen duties but acknowledging contextual ones, and conclude with a nod to libertarian debates, reflecting their analytical rigor (1:10:29–1:13:35). Resources: O’Keeffe (Mises): How Trump Can Lower Drug Prices Without Price Controls Sheldon's facebook post about Trump's price controls Randy Barnett, “What’s Next for Libertarianism?” Van Dun, Barnett on Freedom vs. Property Van Dun on Freedom versus Property and Hostile Encirclement Corporate Personhood, Limited Liability, and Double Taxation Wombatron’s “Why I Am A Left-Libertarian” Left-Libertarians on Corporations “Expropriating the Efforts of Stakeholders” Comment on Left-Libertarianism on Roderick Long’s “Sub, Ex, & Dep” Post Trump’s “Worst Idea”: Undercutting Patent-Inflated Monopoly Pharmaceutical Patents FDA and Patent Reform: A Modest Proposal Cato on Drug Reimportation; Cato Tugs Stray Back Onto the Reservation; and Other Posts “Patents, Pharma, Government: The Unholy Alliance,” Brownstone Institute (April 1, 2024) Patents and Pharmaceuticals “Decouple Trade and IP Protection,” Brownstone Institute (Dec. 4, 2024) “Price Controls, Antitrust, and Patents” Patents, Prescription Drugs, and Price Controls The Schizo Feds: Patent Monopolies and the FTC (Aug. 2006) IP vs. Antitrust Kevin Carson on Confiscating Property from the Rich KOL442 | Together Strong Debate vs. Walter Block on Voluntary Slavery (Matthew Sands of Nations of Sanity) Update: From Wikipedia: Libertarianism in the United States: Thin and thick libertarianism: Thin and thick libertarianism Thin and thick libertarianism are two kinds of libertarianism. Thin libertarianism deals with legal issues involving the non-aggression principle only and would permit a person to speak against other groups as long as they did not support the initiation of force against others.[231] Walter Block is an advocate of thin libertarianism.[232] Jeffrey Tucker describes thin libertarianism as "brutalism" which he compares unfavorably to "humanitarianism".[233] (( Libertarianism Is More Than Just Rejecting Force The "thick" and "thin" of libertarian philosophy. Reason. Sheldon Richman | 4.6.2014 8:00 AM  )) Thick libertarianism goes further to also cover moral issues. Charles W. Johnson describes four kinds of thickness, namely thickness for application, thickness from grounds, strategic thickness and thickness from consequences.[234] Thick libertarianism is sometimes viewed as more humanitarian than thin libertarianism.[235] Wendy McElroy has stated that she would leave the movement if thick libertarianism prevails.[236] (( A Letter to My Father )) Stephan Kinsella rejects the dichotomy altogether, writing: "I have never found the thick-thin paradigm to be coherent, consistent,