Thom Norman on whether diet change is a counterproductive ask (and what we could do instead)

Lewis Bollard should be a familiar name for those trying to improve the lives of farmed animals. For almost 10 years, he’s been running the farm animal welfare program at Open Philanthropy, the largest funder in the fight against factory farming. It's hard to think of someone who's had a large positive influence on the modern farm animal welfare movement. In this conversation, we discuss the many different approaches we can take to help animals. We talk about why some strategies are less promising than they initially seem, common misconceptions he sees amongst advocates, why creating good strategy is hard, where the movement is under-investing and what he’s learned from other social movements. See the full transcript on our Buzzsprout.Chapters:What Lewis has changed his mind on (00:02:33)The challenges of institutional meat reduction (00:06:05) Lewis' pessimism on animal welfare litigation (00:11:58)The case for animal welfare technologies (00:14:42)Why blocking new farms may not help (or even make things worse) (00:18:24)What Lewis thinks advocates commonly get wrong (00:23:11)Incrementalism vs moonshots & the speed of social change (00:26:50)What is the movement under-investing in? (00:36:44)Challenges in scaling large organisations (00:41:46)Prop 12 and the future of US legislation (00:45:43)How can we improve our political advocacy? (00:50:01)What can we do in the Global South? (00:55:32)How will transformative AI affect animal advocacy? (01:07:43)What is tough about Lewis' role? (01:15:41)Resources:For more about Open Phil as a funder, check out our episode with Amanda HungerfordLewis’ substack Lewis AMA on the EA ForumLewis' TwitterIf you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!

Cass Sunstein has one of the most impressive track records out there. He’s the author of the social change books Nudge and How Change Happens, a Harvard Law professor and former US government official in the Obama administration. He has been writing about animal rights law since as early as 1999 and has written several seminal papers on the topic. He has a forthcoming book, with the working title Animals Matter, discussing how we can normalise and popularise caring about animals in mainstream society.In this conversation, we speak about understanding the contradictory views held by the public on animal welfare, how our advocacy can help them overcome these contradicting views, how he was smeared by the media and even called “the most dangerous man in America” for his views on animal rights, and how we can get more people to speak only about pro-animal issues. For those interested in hearing more about his previous book, How Change Happens, and his views on social change, you can listen to this great episode of his with 80,000 Hours, which covers that topic in more depth.Referenced resources:Animals Matter – Substack Post by Cass Sunstein80,000 Hours podcast with Cass Sunstein on How Change Happens Justice for animals – Martha nussbaum If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!

There are never-ending conversations in the animal advocacy movement about whether diet change is an effective ask for the public. Today, we speak with Thom from FarmKind on why he thinks asking people to donate, rather than change their diet, can be a much more promising approach.We speak about why behaviour change is difficult, the many benefits of donating, what other social movements have used as their asks, as well as the different experiments FarmKind has run in their quest to figure out how to best raise funds for animal advocacy. Mentioned resourcesFarmKind website Farmkind LinkedInChange Meat Resistance: Systematic Literature Review on Consumer Resistance to the Alternative Protein Transition | Annual Reviews Research by Pax Fauna Moral ambition - Rutger Bregman Frans waal - mama’s last hugIf you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!

The EU is one of the most important institutions in the world. They had amazingly ambitious plans to transform the lives of the billions of farmed animals in the EU which sadly, were put on hold last year. Today, we speak to an expert in EU animal welfare policy, Alice Di Concetto from the European Institute for Animal Law & Policy, about what happened, what animal advocates might hope to win in the next few years and how we might improve our lobbying efforts.Resources: European Institute for Animal Law & Policy websiteAnimals in the EU Agricultural Policy, European Institute for Animal Law & Policy (2021).Recent Developments in EU Animal Law & Policy: 2019 – 2024 in Review, The European Institute for Animal Law & Policy (2025).You can find this research note and this special report, as well as all of our publications online at: https://animallaweurope.org/publications/ Alice Di Concetto, The Double Edged Sword : International Law and Its Effects on EU Farm Animal Welfare Legislation, Global Journal of Animal Law, Special Issue: Internal Law and Animal Health and Protection: Persistent Themes, New Prospects for Change, v. 10, n. 2. Available online: https://journal.fi/gjal/issue/view/11222 Coller Foundation, Advocating for Animals: A Guide to Legislative Advocacy (2022), available online: https://calf.law/legislative-advocacy-guides KraftwerkFranz Kafka (especially the unfinished works)The Institute’s NewsletterRethink Priorities: EU Farmed Animal Policy – Strategic Assessment If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!

Today, we’re sharing a different kind of episode. Not an episode of How I Learned to Love Shrimp but an appearance that I, James, made on another podcast, Changed My Mind. It's all about what causes people to change their mind and this time, I talk about my experience with changing my view on disruptive protests and social movements. This podcast is run by Aidan and Thom from FarmKind, who some listeners may know about, as a great new charity working to raise funds for animal issues. You can listen to more of their podcast here on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. How I Learned To Live Shrimp will be back as normal next week. Enjoy!If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!

There is an age-old debate within animal advocacy on the importance of educating the public. Is it simply enough to tell people about the harms of industrial animal agriculture and then they will change their behaviours? Sadly, not it seems. Many people have been disappointed about the amount of behaviour change that’s actually happened over the past few decades due to education, as seen in relatively stagnant numbers of people going vegetarian or vegan. That’s why I’m excited that this week’s guest, Katie Cantrell from Greener by Default, is trying a new approach to get people to change their behaviours – by changing their diets with them barely even noticing. Stick around for a great discussion on the importance of nudging, choice architecture and making the plant-based option the default path.For those who didn’t listen to our special 50th episode (which I think was awesome – go check it out!), this is a reminder that it will just be me hosting the podcast for the foreseeable future, as Amy sadly had to take a step back. ResourcesGreener by Default (website, LinkedIn)Research on the effectiveness of nudges (and another by the Food Climate League)US bans animal testing for certain drugsEve by Cat BohannonThe Mountain in the Sea by Ray NaylorIf you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!

To mark our 50th episode, we're bringing you something special: Five movement leaders talking about some of the biggest developments for animals in the past two years as well as what advocates should focus on next for the next two years. Highlighting advancements in policy, corporate campaigns, alternative proteins, and investment in overlooked species, this is an information-packed episode so don't miss out! Our guests:David Coman-Hidy from The Navigation FundCarolina Galvani from Sinergia AnimalAlex Holst from The Good Food Institute EuropeCarley Betts from The Open Wing AllianceKarolina Sarek from the Effective Altruism Animal Welfare FundPlease give the podcast a positive review on your podcast provider of choice. You can also find us on YouTube if you want to see these podcasts in beautiful color and video.If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!

Kelvey Vander Hart from the Wilberforce Institute joins us to share her approach to animal advocacy from a politically right-of-center view and how her Christian faith guides her activism.• The importance of bipartisan approaches to engage the masses in animal advocacy• Why animal welfare should be a cross-cutting issue that transcends political affiliation• How political coalitions can be built around specific animal welfare issues rather than comprehensive platforms• Reforming government subsidies that prop up factory farming and removing barriers to innovation• The connection between Christian values of mercy, compassion, and justice and animal welfare• Ways to engage faith communities in animal advocacy through shared values• The pragmatic necessity of working with people across the political spectrum to achieve progress• The story of William Wilberforce, who helped abolish the slave trade and founded the world's first animal welfare organisationNext week is our 50th episode where we'll be interviewing five guests and reflecting on the last two years since the podcast launched. Watch out for this special celebratory episode on April 15th.Resources:The Wilberforce Institute’s website The Wilberforce Institute’s newsletter sign-up pageThe Wilberforce Institute’s X account Kelvey Vander Hart’s website Kelvey Vander Hart’s LinkedIn The Saltwater ChroniclesMedia recommendations How to Be a Good Creature by Sy MontgomeryBlackfish Fear Factories by Matthew Scully Some articles I’ve written related to bipartisan animal advocacy, limited government animal advocacy“Cut Government, Save Animals: Here Are 3 Awful Agencies and Programs DOGE Can Eliminate Entirely”“Big Government Won’t Protect Animals” If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!

David Kay shares his experience as the first employee at Upside Foods, offering a deep dive into the cultivated meat industry's challenges, successes, and political landscape. As an animal advocate who entered the alternative protein space, he provides unique insights on depolarising the conversation around cultivated meat and building bipartisan support.›• Difference between focusing on environmental/health versus animal welfare messaging• David's journey from animal advocacy to becoming the first employee at Upside Foods• How cultivated meat differs from plant-based products as "real meat" grown from cells• Where hundreds of millions in investment funding goes in cultivated meat startups• State-level bans on cultivated meat and fighting political polarisation• How industry is organising through trade associations like AMPS Innovation• Importance of elite institutions in normalising animal advocacy• Recent FDA approval for Mission Barns' cultivated pork fatAdd David on LinkedIn to follow his work and learn more about his perspectives on the alternative protein industry.Resources:Animal liberation bookGFI website State of the industry reports AgFunder – Elaine WatsonMission Barns FDA ApprovalDavid Kay LinkedInIf you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!

A critical look at the entwined relationship between parenthood and the animal advocacy movement. Julia Reinelt shares her insights on how organisations can become more supportive to parents in the advocacy space.• Julia introduces herself and discusses her journey in the animal advocacy movement • The challenges of balancing advocacy work and parenting • Understanding the family-unfriendly aspects of the animal advocacy movement • Suggestions on creating more inclusive environments for parents within organisations • The impact of geographical location on parental support in advocacy • Insights on the necessity of normalising parenting conversations across the movement • How advocating for family-friendly policies can foster sustainability • The role of the AVA summits in promoting family-friendly initiatives • Calls for listeners to engage with these conversations and advocate for change www.avasummit.comSubscribe to our monthly newsletter and​ follow us on LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | YouTube  | TikTok If you enjoy the show, please leave a rating and review us - we would really appreciate it! Likewise, feel free to share it with anyone who you think might enjoy it. You can send us feedback and guest recommendations via Twitter or email us at [email protected]. Enjoy!