82: Reimagining Humanitarianism Using Systems Thinking with Kate Moger

Show Notes In this conversation, Simon and Mishel explore the significance of First Nations worldviews, and how through the modern worldview we have lost our relationships to the land and wider ecologies including our ancestors.  Mishel McMahon, a proud Yorta Yorta woman living on Djaara Country, northern Victoria, Australia, and shares her lived experience and her academic research to help us break out of our limited modern mindsets, where humans are the top of a chain of being, rather than part of an ecology of co-existence and interdependence.  She emphasizes the need to reconnect, the importance of relationality, and the concept of cyclical time. Michelle shares insights on how these perspectives can inform health and healing practices, and the conversation culminates in a call for re-enchantment and recognition of our interdependence with the world around us. Reflections First Nations worldviews offer a broader understanding of reality. Modern mindsets often reduce our connection to nature and each other. Relationality extends beyond human relationships to include all entities. Cyclical time emphasizes the interconnectedness of past, present, and future. Ancestors play a crucial role in decision-making and identity. Everything in nature is infused with spirit, creating a sense of family. Collective identity fosters collaboration and mutual support. Re-enchantment is necessary to combat disenchantment in modern life. Thinking is a communal practice, influenced by our surroundings. Connection to place is fundamental for personal and collective transformation. Keywords First Nations, worldviews, modernity, relationality, ancestors, cyclical time, ecosystems, collective identity, re-enchantment, connection to nature Bio Mishel McMahon is a casual Senior Research Fellow, Violet Vines Marshman Research Centre and proud Yorta Yorta woman living on Djaara Country, northern Victoria. Through First Nations-led research Mishel positions First Nations worldviews, concepts and processes for application within the health and healing sector, and research methodologies. Mishel led the Victorian Aboriginal Research Accord project, an 'On Country' Aboriginal Youth Leadership Aboriginal youth mentoring: a pathway to leadership, Blak Butterfly: First Nations emergency care best practice framework Blak Butterfly and Replanting the Birthing Trees: Our Kids Growing Up Strong, Happy & Healthy. 

Breaking Together In this conversation, Jem Bendel discusses his journey from a career in corporate sustainability to advocating for a radical shift in how we approach climate change and societal collapse. He reflects on his influential paper, 'Deep Adaptation,' which argues that the sustainability movement is no-longer appropriate and that we should prepare for societal collapse. Jem introduces his new framework, 'Breaking Together,' which emphasizes community resilience and eco-libertarianism as a path forward. He shares personal insights about his upbringing and how they shaped his worldview, ultimately advocating for a collective approach to lead localised change.  Takeaways The sustainability movement has largely failed to address the urgency of climate change. Deep Adaptation provides a framework for discussing societal collapse. Many people have been radicalized by the realization of impending collapse. Eco-libertarianism offers a path that contrasts with eco-authoritarianism. Community resilience is essential in the face of societal challenges. Personal experiences can deeply influence one's worldview and actions. A good life is about inquiry, creativity, and connection, not just longevity. We must reclaim control over our resources and communities. The dominant narratives in society can limit our understanding of what is possible. Collective action and community engagement are crucial for creating a better future. Bio Prof. Jem Bendell is Founder of the Deep Adaptation movement, an emeritus professor with the University of Cumbria and the co-Founder of the International Scholars’ Warning on Societal Disruption and Collapse. He worked for over 20 years in corporate sustainability, helping launch or develop many international initiatives. That led to his recognition as a Young Global Leader. His 2018 paper "Deep Adaptation" was downloaded over a million times and is widely credited with helping inspire the growth of the Extinction Rebellion movement. That marked a departure, whereby he concluded the field of sustainability had failed. His new book "Breaking Together" goes further by outlining a collapse-based political framework. Jem also co-hosts the short online course Leading Through Collapse: https://www.katie-carr.com/leadingthroughcollapse.

Psychoanalysis and Humanising the Workplace Gabriella Braun, a renowned consultant and author, delves into her fascinating journey, sharing her insights from her latest book, All that we are: Uncovering the Hidden Truths Behind Our Behaviour at Work. Gabriella discusses how psychoanalytic principles can provide deep insights into organizational dynamics and group behavior, influencing everything from leadership to team cohesion. Her emphasis on emotional awareness highlights its critical role in effective coaching, while she explores how vulnerability in professional environments can foster stronger connections and transform group interactions. Gabriella underscores the importance of humanizing the workplace, particularly in the face of rapid digitalization and societal change. She reflects on the interplay between personal and professional boundaries, noting how understanding these elements can contribute to healthier organizations. Gabriella also touches on societal issues, emphasizing the need for sensitivity and awareness in addressing them within organizations.The discussion centers on the broader theme of living a balanced, meaningful life, where understanding human desire and behavior, curiosity, and playfulness contribute not just to workplace success but to a more connected, compassionate society. Bio Gabriella Braun is the Director of Working Well, a specialist consultancy firm using psychoanalytic and systemic thinking to help leaders and teams. She has consulted to hundreds of clients including British Library, RADA, Tate, NHS Trusts, Schools, Colleges, University of Cambridge and University of London. She holds a masters's degree in Consulting to Organisations: Psychoanalytic Approaches; and was a Principal Consultant with the Tavistock Consultancy Service. She was on on Associate Faculty of the Dynamics of Consulting Program (in US), and has directed and held staff roles in numerous experiential workshops about leadership and team dynamics in UK and abroad. 

Kate Moger is the Global Director of Pledge for Change, an NGO representing a mutual commitment towards building a stronger aid ecosystem based on the principles of solidarity, humility, self-determination and equality. Kate shares her journey in the humanitarian sector and her vision for transforming it. With over two decades of experience in various leadership roles, Kate reflects on how she entered the field somewhat accidentally and how her perspective has evolved over time. Kate discusses the changing landscape of humanitarian work, from her early days as part of the "last of the salvationists" to her current role in driving radical change. She candidly shares her experiences in South Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo, highlighting both the challenges and profound connections she found in these contexts. The conversation delves into the complexities of power dynamics, feminism, and decolonizing aid. Kate emphasizes the importance of intersectionality and understanding power imbalances in her approach to feminism and humanitarian work. She explains the origins and goals of Pledge for Change, an initiative aimed at transforming the humanitarian sector through equitable partnerships, authentic storytelling, and influencing wider change. Kate and Simon explore the tensions within the humanitarian system, questioning whether reform is possible or if a complete dismantling is necessary. They discuss the importance of nurturing emergent systems and leadership at the edges, while acknowledging the geopolitical complexities surrounding humanitarian work. The podcast concludes with Kate's reflections on what it means to live a good life and create a good society, drawing on the concept of Ubuntu and the importance of speaking truth to power with kindness. This conversation offers a thought-provoking look at the challenges and opportunities in reimagining humanitarian work for a more equitable future.

Eleanor shares her experiences and reflections on working closely with social movement activists for over 20 years. She lives in a Catalonian mountain village, where the Ulex Project she works for runs training and capacity-building events for a wide range of social movements. Eleanor reflects on the changes she has witnessed in social movement activists over time, such as how the hope for big social change has decreased due to the poly-crisis and complexity of the world's challenges. Simon and Eleanor discuss how the ideology of neo-liberalism presents itself as TINA, ‘there is no alternative’, which has been very effective in reducing expectations and diminishing the hope of change. Activists need to sustain and energise themselves, and Eleanor shares how Buddhism has helped her decenter her individualism, and expand her relationality to all beings. She shares how rock climbing provides her best leadership model, as when climbing there is total reliance on the leadership-followership relationship, and how the best plans get undone usually by nature intervening, forcing an emergent mindset. Bio  Eleanor Moore is part of the Ulex Project core team that provides pan-European capacity-building support for social movements. Her role bridges facilitation, developing partnerships, governance, strategy, and programme evaluation.  She is embedded in practices of distributed leadership, solidarity economy, and mutual care—a daily exploration of prefiguration. Before Ulex, Eleanor spent 10 years working across diverse social projects in the UK, such as housing, legal, and horticultural projects. These experiences and an immersion in critical theory in her early 20s led to an ongoing life exploration of the connections between the personal, the interpersonal, the socio-political, and the ecological. A climber of many years, she finds respite, sanctuary, and sense-making on high exposed ledges, hanging out with lichen and vultures, and connecting with the perspectives of the non-human world.

Leslie is a student at the Lacanian School of Psychoanalysis of San Francisco and shares an interest with Simon about how Lacan’s work can be very useful in our coaching practice.  Leslie shares how Lacan’s psychoanalytic approaches show up in her work saying the most important thing is that “it changes the way I listen”. She shares how this listening picks up on words and other speech acts that are often missed, such as repetitions, and sounds such as um and ah, and how these tell us something about our unconscious relationship to ourselves and others. Simon and Leslie share experiences of psychoanalysis and how it is used in coaching. Leslie talks of how the body holds so much of our unconscious experience, and how she might ask a client about any body symptoms they are experiencing as a way to engage with the unconscious.  This fascinating discussion meanders through many experiences and thoughts,  ranging from how Quakers and Buddhist practices are connected with psychoanalysis, and the overlaps between Leslie’s ceramic artwork and the unconscious.  We hope you enjoy this podcast and it enriches your day!    Bio Leslie Goldenberg is a Coach and an award-winning ceramic artist.  Over the past several years, her work has increasingly come to address the unconscious at work in organizational life. Leslie earned her M.A. from UCLA and is currently a student at the Lacanian School of Psychoanalysis of San Francisco.  She holds a PCC credential from the International Coaching Federation, has a Master Coach certification from the Hudson Institute of Coaching, and was trained in our own Eco-Leadership Institute Coaching approaches.

This conversation goes deep into an unplanned examination of the troubles of the world and arises from these to explore the changing workplace and how we reinvent ourselves. Susan is a Jew who lives in London, and she describes her experience with both the rise of anti-Semitism and the sadness at what is happening in Gaza, as well as her deep desire for justice and peace for Israeli, Jewish, and Palestinian people. She recently returned from visiting Israel and then Poland for the March of the Living 2024 to remember the Holocaust. Simon and Susan share how even talking about these issues seems dangerous and yet so necessary as the world becomes more divided.  The podcast returns to the theme of reinventing ourselves and the changing nature of the workplace. Susan shares a tale from her book reflecting on the need for a much more holistic understanding of the world and ourselves within it. We can easily see ourselves and others in partial ways, which doesn’t allow the full expression of our shared humanity. Simon reads a beautiful passage at the end of Susan’s book, called On Transience, drawing on Freud's 1916 essay.  This conversation is rich and touches on our deep humanity. Enjoy!   Bio  Susan Kahn is a business psychologist, a speaker, and an academic. She is a chartered psychologist, coaching psychologist, and supervisor with the British Psychological Society and a Fellow of the Association of Business Psychologists. She works as an executive coach, consultant, mediator, and observer of working life.  She has a particular interest in the behaviour of people at work and below-surface dynamics in organisations. She studied organisational consultancy using psychoanalytic methods at Tavistock and did her PhD at Birkbeck, University of London, where she teaches coaching psychology and established the Masters in Coaching Psychology. She also works as a group relations consultant. She uses psychoanalytic observation as a research method and has written about the psychoanalysis of endings and resilience. She is a board member of This Can Happen: empowering workplace mental health, ISPSO and OPUS. Her latest book is called Reinvent Yourself: Psychological Insights That Will Transform Your Work Life. Purchase it here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Reinvent-Yourself-Psychological-Insights-Transform/dp/1398613312 Get in touch: www.drskahn.com

Liz Rivers shares her rich engagement with nature and how it informs her work in leadership and as a coach. The seasonal organisation refers back to pre-modern times and draws on the Celtic Calendar as a way of connecting our workplaces with the rhythms and cycles of the natural world. The Celtic calendar marks times in the year when the light changes, when we have the shortest and longest days, which in turn mark the beginning and end of seasons. Life and work used to be organised around these seasonal changes, whereas in the process of urbanisation and industrialization, the clock took over and work was organised without reference to nature or its seasonal rhythms. Liz uses the seasonal organisation as part of her work to support women’s leadership in her Purpose Power Presence programmes delivered with Hetty Einzig. This training works with the body and the imagination to find space for something other than the constant, driven, male-dominated leadership styles we still find in today’s workplace. Simon and Liz reflect on how men would respond to this ‘women's course’ and how work and the environment can be more integrated in general. Enjoy this exploration of the seasonal organisation.   Bio Liz Rivers is a former commercial lawyer turned leadership coach and co-founder with Hetty Einzig of Purpose Power Presence: Leadership Programmes for Women. Disillusioned with the adversarial world of commercial litigation, Liz jumped ship and became the first woman to be accredited as a commercial and organisational mediator in the UK.  In her personal life, Liz's passions have included Chi Kung, wild swimming, storytelling, body psychotherapy, camping, and wilderness retreats. She has studied and worked with the Celtic Calendar for over a decade and found it a powerful tool for women leaders to align with their rhythms and create more humane workplaces.

In this fascinating and deeply insightful podcast, Chantal and Brad reflect on the meaning of disappearance. Chantal comes from Mexico where over 100,000 people have disappeared through violence and kidnapping. Human disappearance leaves a hole, an empty space, a void to which our human response is often one of confusion, desperation, pain, loss, anger and even guilt.  Chantal is an artist working with abstract art, she is self-taught and learnt her craft from her artisanal family and the small Mexican community she grew up in. Chantal and Brad discuss how art, and abstract art in particular can speak to us when language fails us. In this wide-ranging discussion, Brad shares his philosophical insights into violence and disappearance in particular, saying that it is not easy to disappear somebody, and to disappear thousands takes a huge organisational effort, and asks what lies behind this?   Brad also discusses the Rhonda valley and the disappearance of jobs, of community, of a vibrant culture after the coal mines were shut without anything to replace the jobs; in his most recent book, he describes how these communities have disappeared from the view of wider society in the UK. Disappearance of humans is one thing, another form of disappearance that is finally entering our collective awareness is the disappearance of nature and the loss of biodiversity; how do we make sense of that?  Each of us has a relationship to disappearance, for some, it is a cultural phenomenon shared by collective people due to drug cartels, war or state terrorism that leads to many being disappeared. For others, it can be a personal story. We hope this podcast stirs your thinking and raises awareness of the meaning of disappearance in our current world. Bio Chantal Meza is an abstract painter living and working in the United Kingdom. Her work has been featured in exhibitions, auctions and biennials in prominent Museums and Galleries in Mexico, the United Kingdom, Paraguay and Germany. She has delivered international lectures and workshops at reputable universities such as Harvard University, École Normale Superiéure, Goethe Univeristät, and Goldsmiths University among others, as well as being commissioned publicly and privately. Her work has received the support of grants, public recognition and awards of prominent institutions in the cultural sector. More recently, her first edited volume “State of Disappearance” was published by McGill Queens University Press.  Professor Brad Evans is a political philosopher, critical theorist, and writer, who specializes in the problem of violence. He is the author of over 20 books and edited volumes, including most recently State of Disappearance (with Chantal Meza, McGill Queens University Press: 2023) & Ecce Humanitas: Beholding the Pain of Humanity (Columbia University Press, 2020). He previously led a dedicated columns/series on violence in both the New York Times and the Los Angeles Review of Books. Brad currently serves as Chair of Political Violence and Aesthetics at the University of Bath, United Kingdom, where is he the founder and director of the Centre for the Study of Violence. His latest book How Black Was My Valley: Poverty and Abandonment in a Post-Industrial Heartland will soon be published by Repeater/Penguin Random House in April 2024.

This podcast reflects on my extensive and diverse work journey, which has been profoundly enriching. Yet, it transcends a mere work biography; it delves into an emotional journey shared. Work occupies a significant portion of our lives, yet we seldom reflect on how our experiences in the workplace impact and shape us. Every time I recount this story to a live audience, I am surprised by how it evolves. The adage "you can't step into the same river twice" holds. My unconscious seems to guide me as I speak, causing me to omit certain details or emphasize aspects that typically escape my attention. Sometimes, I even find myself becoming emotional at specific points that resonate deeply. This story has a life of its own, continually revealing new insights about my past and present self as I revisit it. We all have countless stories to tell about ourselves, and I've recounted my own tale, "what authored the author," numerous times, both in writing and in various settings. Interestingly, this particular narrative elicits a strong emotional response in people, a fact that initially caught me off guard. However, I've come to realize that this is precisely the essence of the story. It's not about me; rather, it serves as a mirror, reflecting something back to the reader. What it evokes, stirs, and ignites within you is significant; it prompts the question, "what authored you?" Bio  Simon Western is a leading academic and practitioner in coaching and leadership, and the author of several books, reports, and academic papers. He is the host of the Edgy Ideas Podcast and the author behind the Re-enchanting Our Worlds newsletter on Substack. Simon has also developed and led the organisation’s popular courses.  He is the founder of the Eco-Leadership Institute which runs coach training and leadership programmes and is a think-tank to create a more adaptive, ethical and impactful leadership approach for today's precarious-interdependent age.