Monty Roberts, Alexandra Kurland, and the Future of Horse Training

There's one horse you would cross the country for. You know the one. The horse who found you when you had the least to give and somehow handed you back to yourself. Now hold that horse in your mind, and sit with this: roughly 20,000 of them a year get loaded onto trailers bound for Canada and Mexico, and it reaches every kind of horse — the show jumper, the Thoroughbred who ran too slow, the lesson pony grown old, the wild horses rounded up off land that was meant to protect them. Ashley Avis has looked straight at it. She sewed a button cam into her shirt and walked into the Texas auctions where kill buyers wait. She founded the Wild Beauty Foundation, directed the mustang documentary Wild Beauty: Mustang Spirit of the West, and remade Black Beauty for Disney+. And she has turned all of it toward one aim: passing the SAFE Act in the year of the horse. This conversation goes to the place most people flinch from. Ashley and I talk about why horse people, of all people, find horse slaughter the hardest thing to watch — and how she makes you look anyway, through ninety-second films voiced by Mackenzie Foy, Jessica Springsteen, and Diane Lane, and scored by Billie Eilish's "What Was I Made For?" We talk about my mare Lady, one of those wild horses herself, who ran feral for fifteen years before she came to me, and who could have ridden that same truck to Mexico. We talk about the black colt with pneumonia that Ashley coaxed out of a kill buyer's pasture, and the economics that let a man triple his price on a horse's life. And we talk about Black Beauty — what Anna Sewell did in 1877 by writing from a horse's point of view, and why it still rearranges the people who meet it. Then Ashley tells you exactly what two minutes of your day can do. A microsite. Your zip code. A pre-written letter your member of Congress will read. If you have ever been remade by a single horse, this is the reason to pull the car over. Ashley Avis is a filmmaker and the founder of the Wild Beauty Foundation. She directed Disney+'s Black Beauty and the mustang documentary Wild Beauty: Mustang Spirit of the West, and her Lost Horses campaign is carrying the SAFE Act toward a vote. Make the call to Congress to pass the SAFE Act: Call the U.S. Capitol Switchboard to directed to your Senators and Representative: 202-224-3121. Once connected, all you have to say is, "Hi, my name is [NAME] and I am calling from [City/State] to ask that the [Senator/Representative] pass the SAFE Act (H.R. 1661, S. 775) to protect American horses, both domestic and wild, from being exported out of the United States to slaughter. Thank you." Share the Lost Horses PSA: The Lost Horses campaign and legislation to stop horse slaughter is gaining momentum and we must keep up the awareness. Please share the PSA on social media and with your friends and family. Vimeo, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook. Donate to the Lost Horses campaign: Help continue to reach the masses so that no horse is lost again. losthorses.org/support   Episode Sponsor:  YETI Made for early mornings in the barn and long days in the saddle. Whether you're hauling feed, chasing daylight on the trail, or loading up for a weekend on the road, YETI coolers and drinkware are built to handle it. No shortcuts. No compromise. Just gear that works as hard as you do. Explore more at YETI.com | @YETI | facebook.com/YETI   And for even more expert-led workshops, in-depth courses, and exclusive lectures designed to elevate your riding and horsemanship, visit NoelleFloydPlus.com and use code 'DHW' for 15% off annual memberships! NF+ brings you direct access to top equestrian professionals, training insights, and a passionate community of riders dedicated to learning and improving.    

You get the thing you chased for five years. And the ride is the worst one you've ever put down. Kasey Perry-Glass reached the Olympic Games on the horse she bought to take her there — Doublé — and came home into a depression that blindsided her. This is the conversation under the medal photo. What it costs to want something that badly, and what she found on the far side of it. She married a cowboy. Dana Glass starts colts and takes in the horses other people gave up on — the rearers, the buckers, the bolters, carrying baggage nobody unpacked. Two worlds under one roof: her classical dressage, his groundwork. What one taught the other is most of this hour. We get into the perfectionism that dressage rewards and then punishes — a score out of 100 that stays out of reach, a sport where the best mark is a C or a D on a good day. Why she stopped posting to social media. The line Martin Black uses, let them cook, and why ending a ride a little early beats grinding it into the ground. Pain versus behavior, and the checklist she taught Dana: clear the ulcers, the hindgut, the teeth, before anyone calls it attitude. Then the mental game she learned the hard way. Finding her number with Annette Paterakis — the exact pitch of nerves and calm that lets her ride her best. The work with Dr. Jenny Susser. Blacking out in the saddle, ten minutes gone, grinding the same movement. Boundaries. Getting told she was "too nice" for this sport, and what she kept anyway. Behind the vertical, point of balance, throughness without a single draw rein — she explains the dressage the way she explained it to Dana, the sport he first met through her. This one is for anyone who has wanted something so badly it made them small, and found their way back to the size they actually are. Kasey Perry-Glass is a US Olympic dressage rider — team bronze at Rio 2016 (America's first Olympic dressage medal since 2004) and team silver at the 2018 World Equestrian Games — who competes as Kasey Perry. Her longtime partner was the Grand Prix gelding Doublé (Goerklintgaards Dublet), now retired; she currently campaigns Heartbeat W.P. She and her husband, cowboy and colt-starter Dana Glass, run Two Worlds Equestrian, joining Western horsemanship and Grand Prix dressage under one program. To Learn more about Kasey Perry-Glass: website | instagram | facebook In This Episode You'll Learn What it costs to reach an Olympic Games and ride your worst test there, and the depression Kasey came home to The perfectionism dressage rewards and then punishes,  chasing a score out of 100 in a sport where a great mark is a C Let them cook: why ending a ride a little early beats grinding a movement into the ground The pain-versus-behavior checklist Kasey taught Dana — ulcers, hindgut, teeth, before anyone calls it attitude Finding your number with sports psychologist Annette Paterakis — the exact pitch of nerves and calm that lets you ride your best Blacking out in the saddle, ten minutes gone on the same movement, and the mental work that pulled her out Behind the vertical made plain: the poll as the highest point, and why a horse's own point of balance can't be copied and pasted Throughness without a single draw rein, and how groundwork gave an Olympic rider tools her dressage babies never had Chapters:   0:00    How Kasey met a cowboy 4:51    What Dana does: colt starting & unpacking a horse's trauma 8:41    Groundwork, the rope halter & being a beginner again 14:34   [ad: Total Feeds] 15:14   The perfectionism dressage rewards and punishes 19:51   Let them cook: ending on a good note 23:17   Pain vs. behavior: what we blame on the horse 29:05   Bringing two worlds together 30:36   Welfare, eliminations & the "blood" rule 33:44   [ad: Noëlle's Substack] 36:07   Judging transparency & educating the viewer 39:21   Behind the vertical, explained 41:44   Point of balance & throughness without draw reins 44:47   Training aids as tools; groundwork informs the saddle 49:34   The Olympics — and the depression after 53:44   Patience in a same-day world 57:22   The mental game: finding your number 1:02:29 Boundaries, thick skin & remaking herself 1:07:19 Tough vs. strong; raising horses and kids 1:12:50 Rapid-fire questions Episode Sponsor: Connaway & Associates Equine Insurance Services, Inc. The friendly and knowledgeable team at Connaway & Associates brings together more than 30 years of experience to offer a wide range of insurance services, including horse insurance, farm insurance, and liability insurance. Visit www.connaway.net | @connawayassociates | facebook.com/connawayassociatesequine    Episode Sponsor: YETI Made for early mornings in the barn and long days in the saddle. Whether you're hauling feed, chasing daylight on the trail, or loading up for a weekend on the road, YETI coolers and drinkware are built to handle it. No shortcuts. No compromise. Just gear that works as hard as you do. Explore more at YETI.com | @YETI | facebook.com/YETI   Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments.  https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening!      

You think the cow is the hard part. She isn't. You are. You get ahead of her to turn her, and she beats you to the herd every time. You spur, you pull, the horse's head comes up, and now nobody is watching the cow at all. Martin Black has read millions of head of cattle, and the horse training lesson underneath all of it is the one almost everybody gets backwards. To cut one cow out, you leave her alone and stir the herd around her. To turn her, you turn away — not toward. The horse rates the cow the way a foal learns to rate its mother in the first thirty minutes of life. It's already in there. Our job is to stay out of the road so the horse can use it. This is Part 2 of my week with Martin on his ranch in the Great Basin. Part 1 is the ranch, the horses, and reading the moment — start there. We work the balance point and the flight zone, and why a cow reads your horse's head like a horn and your horse's hip like something softer. Why getting in front of a cow to block her only sends her faster. What Tom Dorrance told Martin decades ago about turning tail, and how that one idea makes a green horse handier by the day. Gene Lewis, his mother's cousin, and jumpers that rate a fence with nobody telling them where to put their feet. Then the part that reshaped how I keep my own horses. Turnout over stalls. Bare feet when the ground allows. A crick to cross and rocks to pick through, because a horse who has to sort out the terrain grows savvy, and a horse who never has to stays a passenger. Martin runs horses as a business, not a companion animal, and says his vet bills will stand against anyone's. Colic almost unheard of. Feet the ground keeps honest. It made me ask what I was really protecting when I bubble-wrapped mine. The horse training here is subtraction, not addition. Cows think more like horses than you'd guess, and empathy runs under all of it. Martin Black is a lifelong Great Basin horseman and stockman from a multi-generation ranching family, working in the vaquero tradition and the lineage of Tom Dorrance. He spent ten years starting young horses at Calumet Farm in Lexington and now teaches horsemanship and stockmanship through clinics and a ranch school.  If you want to go further with your own horse, NF+ has 70+ masterclasses at noellefloydplus.com or through the app link in the show notes.   In This Episode You'll Learn The move almost everyone gets backwards: to hold a single cow, you leave her alone and stir the herd around her Why getting in front of a cow to block her only sends her faster back to the herd — and what to do the instant she turns How a cow reads your horse's head like a horn and your horse's hip like something softer, so a leg-yield moves her where a headbutt would spook her What Tom Dorrance told Martin about turning tail to a cow, and how it makes a green horse rounder and handier by the day Gene Lewis and colts that rate a fence themselves, with nobody telling them where to put their feet Why a collected walk finally had a purpose the day Noelle worked cattle on Lady What ten years starting babies at Calumet and a lifetime in the Great Basin say about turnout, bare feet, and letting a horse sort out rough ground The barbed-wire story, and what a horse who navigates real terrain has that a bubble-wrapped one lacks Chapters 0:00    Part 2: cutting a cow by leaving her alone 1:40    Holding cattle without a fence — what it takes 3:40    Sorting without stalking: keeping a cow parasympathetic 5:40    Cows think like horses — Dr. Peters & Temple Grandin 8:30    The old way wasn't the cruel way 10:40   After WWII: how the mechanized age lost the horsemanship 11:20   What a chuck wagon really was (Great Basin history) 14:34   [ad: Total Feeds] 17:49   The balance point & flight zone, explained 21:00   Rating: the foal, the herd, and the safe place 26:40   Headbutt vs. tail-butt: why a leg-yield moves a cow softer 30:40   The move most people get backwards: never turn into the cow 33:43   [ad: Noelle's Substack] 34:47   Predator habits that get in the way 37:30   Tom Dorrance on turning tail 40:50   Gene Lewis: horses that rate the jump themselves 47:00   Managing horses naturally: turnout over stalls 49:00   Barefoot when the ground allows 52:00   Rough terrain makes a savvy horse — the barbed-wire story 55:00   Horses as a business, not a companion animal 59:40   Advice for urban riders: get out of the arena Episode Sponsor: Total Feeds Our mission to provide quality nutrition to people and animals puts us in contact with all manner of interesting folks. Whether you're interested in our animal feed, or the people involved in the animal industry: you'll find it at Total Feeds! Check out our line of Quality Animal Feeds here: https://totalfeeds.com   Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments.  https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening!  

We pat our horses to tell them they did well. Martin Black says the horse would rather we kept our hands to ourselves. He has spent a life inside western horse training — starting close to five hundred colts a year on the same Great Basin country his family has ranched since the 1860s, seventy miles from his nearest neighbor, the road over the mountain closed all winter. And what he showed me this week is that the pat is for us. The reward the horse is after is chemical: the flood of serotonin and dopamine that arrives when pressure lifts and the body comes home to rest. Martin calls it the cocktail. Rouse the horse, bring him down, and he licks his lips — he got his drink, and he will go to that edge with you again because he knows you will take him to the bar after. This is western horse training as one of its living masters practices it, and almost none of it looks like technique. Martin reads a colt the way the rest of us read a single sentence — ten things at once. He calls it peripheral thinking. The predator in us locks onto the prey: the outcome, the lead change, the plan for the day. Martin holds the objective and lets the plan bend to whatever the horse hands him. The seed that wants to grow today gets watered today. The one that is not ready waits. We talk about the hours. I could shadow him in Idaho for years and still not own his timing, because feel does not transfer. You earn it one horse at a time, and no clinic sells it. We talk about why he trains his cattle the way his family has since the 1860s — the rodear, the old vaquero work that crossed from Spain and reached Texas two centuries late — and why a dressage horse belongs on a cow as much as any ranch gelding does. And we go into the cowboy neuroscience of it: sympathetic arousal, homeostasis, pressure and its relief as one thing rather than two. Dr. Steve Peters pulled Martin out of a lineup for this. Martin calls himself a bartender. He once waited forty-five minutes on a traumatized cutting mare, feeling her heartbeat through the saddle horn, until she finally licked her lips and found her way home. Part one of two. In part two, Martin takes it to the ground — reading cattle by the million, and moving one cow out of a herd by leaving her alone. Martin Black is a Great Basin horseman and colt starter who has started close to five hundred colts a year, working the same remote Idaho country his family has ranched since the 1860s. He carries the lineage of Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt into a plainer, harder question: what does the horse in front of you need? In This Episode You'll Learn Why the pat you give after a good round is for you, and what the horse is asking for instead. The cocktail — how serotonin and dopamine turn pressure and its release into the reward the horse remembers. Peripheral thinking: reading ten things at once, and why the predator in us locks onto only one. Why Martin holds the objective and lets the horse choose which seed grows today. The forty-five-minute wait on a traumatized cutting mare, and the heartbeat he felt through the saddle horn. The hours nobody can hand you — why feel is earned one horse at a time. Find out more about Martin Black: website | facebook | youtube Chapters  0:00 — The pat is for you, not the horse (cold open) 0:30 — Seventy miles from the nearest neighbor 5:00 — No formula fits all: hold the objective, bend the plan 14:38 — Peripheral thinking and the predator's focus 19:33 — Moving the feet: sympathetic arousal and self-preservation 28:45 — Why loving on your horse is for you 31:01 — The invitation: the cocktail, the margarita, the lick of the lips 39:29 — Cowboy neuroscience: pressure, relief, homeostasis 50:40 — The colt-starting science project 51:53 — Can a jumper work a cow? Stockmanship and the rodear 57:29 — Holding the herd without a fence — and what empathy means Total Feeds Our mission to provide quality nutrition to people and animals puts us in contact with all manner of interesting folks. Whether you're interested in our animal feed, or the people involved in the animal industry: you'll find it at Total Feeds! Check out our line of Quality Animal Feeds here: https://totalfeeds.com Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments.  https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening!  

When I was eleven, my mom handed me The Man Who Listens to Horses. Last week, the man who wrote it died. Within days, the horse world also lost Alexandra Kurland — the woman who spent decades convincing us that a clicker and a handful of food belonged in serious horse training. This is a solo episode. An essay, read aloud, on two pioneers who stood in opposite corners of horse training and still moved the same conversation forward. On join up, and what it asks of a flight animal sent around a round pen. On positive reinforcement, and why handing a horse food never automatically creates consent. On the disputed parts of Monty's story, and why we can hold gratitude and discernment at the same time. And underneath it all, the question I keep circling: why do we need our teachers to be heroes? We put trainers on pedestals. The flaws appear — they always do — and reverence flips to contempt overnight. Either way, the person is never allowed to be human. And pedestals are useless to horses. A pedestal has never once made a horse feel safer, calmer, or less confused about what we are asking. I believe we are living through the biggest shift in the human-horse relationship since machines took horses out of our fields and our wars. The question used to be: can the horse do it? The question becoming ours is: what does it cost the horse to do it? Did the horse understand, or did it simply stop resisting? Does the absence of conflict mean the horse feels safe? One day, we will be the outdated ones. The next generation will see pressure we could not recognize and pain we rationalized. I hope so. If they never outgrow us, we failed to help them see farther. Monty Roberts and Alexandra Kurland do not need us to decide which one was right. They need us to carry the torch. And the torch is not join up. The torch is not the clicker. The torch is the responsibility to keep listening. Thank you, Monty. Thank you, Alexandra. This one is for the lineage — and for my mom, who put that book in my hands. In This Episode: Why join up is pressure and release in learning-theory terms — and why naming that honors Monty more than sainthood ever could The question Alexandra Kurland made possible: how do I create a learning environment where the horse becomes an active participant What the clicker teaches the human — poor timing, criteria that jump too fast, a missed try; the horse reports every one Why food on its own creates neither agency nor consent, and what positive reinforcement still demands of the person holding it Becky Moody at the top of dressage: trained with Carl Hester, embracing clicker work — evolution over allegiance The pedestal inversion: how reverence flips to contempt when the flaws appear, and why both extremes abandon the horse The three sentences responsible learning gets to say: this is what you made possible, this is where I believe you were wrong, this is what I will carry forward Learn more about Monty Roberts: website | facebook | youtube Learn more about Alexandra Kurland: website | facebook Chapters  0:00 — The book that started it 2:30 — What positive reinforcement changed first 6:00 — Two truths about Monty Roberts 8:40 — The biggest shift since mechanization 13:00 — Pedestals are useless to horses 15:20 — The torch and the next generation Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments.  https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening!

You measure with your hand while he stands there. Then he takes a step, and the horse you measured is gone. Saddle fit is horse care. I rode my whole life before anyone said that to me plainly. I met Letitia Glenn, founder of Contour Saddlery™, at Road to the Horse. She had seen footage of me riding, and the first thing she thought—which she then said to my face, out loud—was that I did not know what I did not know about saddles. She was right. I brought her to Florida on the hottest day of that summer, rode in one of her saddles, and felt my mare Lady's scapula move with a freedom it never had on the whole road trip. Letitia came to horses at 47, with a two-year-old Paso Fino stallion named Echo, and has spent the last quarter century asking one question: Why do so many saddles fit a standing horse, yet interfere with the horse once it begins to move? She found part of the answer backpacking. Fifty-five pounds, eight miles, the Rocky Mountains. Picture the corner of a book pressed into your spine. You will contort away from it. Horses do the same. Pressure behind the scapula changes posture, alters movement through the entire body, and creates compensation patterns that no amount of riding can truly fix. So we explore what she looks for: the upward head nod at the walk on a loose rein, the Four Bs, the belly tickle test, and the hollow behind the scapula that reveals chronic restriction. We also discuss why the interface (the space between the saddle and the moving back) matters just as much as the saddle itself, and how the Contour Saddlery™ Saddle System and the VersaFit™ Saddle Pad System were developed to help accommodate the horse's changing shape in motion by restoring shoulder freedom and improving pressure distribution. We also get into the part of horse care that never appears on a bill of sale. Saddle fitters are often paid by the brand they recommend. Trainers sometimes receive commissions on the tack their students buy. An expensive saddle isn't proof of a better fit—it may simply reflect a larger marketing budget. Lady gave me a scar on my stomach the first year I had her, reaching back for me while I tightened the cinch. I used to call that her temperament. Now I wonder if she was trying to tell me something. I wanted the horse world to hear this conversation because Lady had been telling me the same story for years—I just wasn't ready to listen. Learn more about Letitia Glenn, Contour Saddlery™, and the VersaFit™ Saddle Pad System, and request a free saddle fit evaluation: website | instagram | youtube  This episode is sponsored by Contour Saddlery™ At Contour Saddlery™, we believe saddle fit should be based on the horse in motion—not standing still. Our complete Contour Saddlery™ Saddle System and the VersaFit™ Saddle Pad System work together to create a dynamic fitting solution that supports shoulder freedom, accommodates your horse's changing shape, and helps improve comfort, movement, and performance. Whether you're looking to optimize your current saddle or invest in a complete saddle system, our goal is simple: Every Horse. Every Saddle. Every Ride.™ Learn how to improve the fit and function of your saddle: Experience the difference a truly horse-first saddle can make. Visit Naturalhorsemansaddles.com to learn more. Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments.  https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening! Chapters: 0:00      "Saddles are torture devices" 2:13      She doesn't know what she doesn't know 6:41      Lady's shoulder, and what freedom felt like 10:07     The fourth component nobody talks about 12:23     The upward head nod at the walk 16:08     The four Bs: bone, bulge, behind the bulge 17:17     The belly tickle test 22:20     The hollow behind the scapula 26:09     A steward at the end of the arena 32:00     Lady's scar and the cinch 33:41     The Black Stallion, age 47, and Echo 39:04     Dr. Stephen Peters: 27 saddlings a day 43:31     The Therm-a-Rest pad and the living interface 46:15     Where the shim goes, English and Western 50:41     A birdhouse roof on a beach ball 56:47     The free saddle fit evaluation 1:02:40   A body that changes 1:08:20   Rapid fire

We say we want a willing horse. Then we climb on, and we start cramming. And when the horse gets tight, or slow, or stuck, we do the one thing that guarantees it gets worse — we add pressure. This is Part 2 of my conversation with Dr. Stephen Peters, and this time he brought a horse's brain. Cut in half, in his hands, on the table between us. He points to the cingulate. He points to the little kidney-bean pituitary. And he shows me, physically, the difference between a horse who can talk itself back down and a horse who has no way back. That difference has a name. It's a chemical called GABA. An empowered horse can produce it — can send the "stand down" signal before the cortisol ever floods the system. A horse in learned helplessness can't reach it. Same event, two completely different animals, and most of what separates them is what we wired in, and the state we wired it in. We get into the cocktail — dopamine, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, oxytocin, serotonin — and why drilling the same exercise seven times flattens every one of them. Why release is not the same thing as relief, and only the horse gets to tell you which one it was. Why recovery, the part everyone skips, is where the learning actually locks in. And why an hour on the clock is a human invention your horse never agreed to. Then it opens out — touch, exercise, diet, the five domains, allo-grooming, the prairie voles who fall apart in isolation and settle the second the herd rushes back in. And we close on Charles Darwin. Not the line everyone quotes. The one almost nobody does — the one where he says it's the cooperative communities, the ones that bond and help each other, that represent the highest level of evolution. Horses have the chemistry for that built in. Dr. Peters' whole argument is simple: let's use it. Start with Part 1 if you haven't — this picks up right where we left off. Dr. Stephen Peters is a neuroscientist who directed a clinic for brain health and memory, and co-author of Evidence-Based Horsemanship (with Martin Black). His most recent books are Horse Brain Science and A Horse's Life (with Mark Rashid and Chrissy McDonald), which pairs 19 real case studies with the neurological detective work behind each one. You can find all the books by Dr. Stephen Peters here: https://www.horsebrainscience.info/books  Horse Brain Science: The Neuroscience of Ethical Horsemanship Horse Brain Science: A Foundation for Equine Neuroscience The Book of Neuropoetry Evidence Based Horsemanship A Horse's Life: The Neuroscience of Equine Welfare You can find out more about Dr. Stephen Peters on his website -  Horse Brain Science And on Substack Episode Sponsored by: Total Feeds Our mission to provide quality nutrition to people and animals puts us in contact with all manner of interesting folks. Whether you're interested in our animal feed, or the people involved in the animal industry: you'll find it at Total Feeds! Check out our line of Quality Animal Feeds here: https://totalfeeds.com 0:00   Why we get in the way of our own horses 2:00   A horse brain, cut in half: corpus callosum & the cingulate 5:00   The stress circuit — HPA axis, cortisol, and GABA 8:00   Empowered vs. helpless: who can reach the brake 9:06   Wiring confidence vs. wiring fear 11:15  Lady's three stations: rebuilding a horse's love of learning 13:40  The neurochemical cocktail — and why drilling drains it 16:00  Sending the horse away: oxytocin, prediction, and the payoff 18:00  Release is not relief 19:25  A word from Total Feeds 23:00  Recovery, hippocampal replay & why silence matters 27:38  Short sessions, switching horses & the neurodivergent brain 28:57  Spaced vs. massed learning; every nervous system is a snowflake 32:11  The petals on the flower: touch, exercise, diet & the five domains 40:45  Allo-grooming, oxytocin & the prairie voles 44:13  Darwin's Descent of Man: cooperation as the highest evolution 46:43  Dr. Peters' books, Substack & wrap Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments.  https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening!  

Every rider has said it. He's being stubborn. She's testing me. He knows better. Here's the harder, truer thing underneath: the horse isn't being anything. The horse is a nervous system, doing the one job every nervous system has — trying to stay safe. Dr. Stephen Peters spends this conversation taking me under the behavior, into the brain that produced it. He's a neuropsychologist, co-author of Evidence-Based Horsemanship, and the person I call when I want to actually understand my horses instead of just managing them. This time we sat down as two diagnosed neurodivergent people talking about horse behavior from the inside — which is its own kind of honesty. He explains why the horse that shoves past you off the trailer isn't defiant. It's running a pathway you built, three good grazes at a time. He calls it myelination, and once you hear how it works, you stop blaming the horse and start watching what you're teaching when you think you're not teaching anything. We go into the thing so many of us get exactly backwards. You hit a wall, so you add pressure. More leg, more spur, more insistence. And Peters says it plainly: almost always the answer was to let the nervous system reset, not to push harder. Push harder and you don't get through the noise — you become the noise. Then we get to the part I asked him to slow down on. Learned helplessness. The old experiment neither of us can listen to without flinching, and what it tells us about the quiet, compliant, "well-behaved" horse who has simply learned that nothing he does matters. That's not a trained horse. That's a horse who stopped voting. And near the end, something bigger opens up. Peters describes the freeze — the shutdown that isn't a choice, the body flooding itself with its own opioids so it can survive what it can't escape. He says the thing I most needed someone with his credentials to say out loud: that response is the nervous system deciding, not the animal, and not the person it happens to. If you've ever been asked why you didn't fight back, this part is for you as much as your horse. What you'll hear, underneath all of it, is a kinder and more accurate way to be with a horse. Not softer for its own sake — more correct. Work with the nervous system and you get performance and behavior far past anything pressure buys you. The willing partner everyone wants isn't obedient. He's involved. Dr. Stephen Peters is a board-certified neuropsychologist and co-author of Evidence-Based Horsemanship with Martin Black. He studies the equine brain and nervous system and is launching a new podcast, The Skeptical Horseman, with Jillian Kreinbring, M.S., dedicated to separating good research from pseudoscience in the horse world. This is Part 1 of our conversation. In Part 2, Steve puts a real horse brain on the table, cut in half, and shows me exactly what agency does to it. If someone you ride with keeps calling their horse the problem — send them this one first. You can find out more about Dr. Stephen Peters here: Horse Brain Science Chapters: 0:00 — "They have good days and bad days": meeting the horse's nervous system where it is 0:26 — Who Dr. Stephen Peters is, and why brain-first is a different conversation 2:19 — Critical thinking, bias, and the "baloney sandwich" problem in horse science 4:50 — Two neurodivergent people on masking — and the horse equivalent 8:00 — The predictive brain: why "predictable = readable = safe" 9:42 — Myelination, oligodendrocytes, and paving the horse's highways 11:59 — The trailer example: habit vs. the labels we assign it (defiant, disrespectful) 15:24 — Clever Hans: the horse who was reading, not counting 17:11 — Nervous systems, sympathetic arousal, and why more pressure adds noise 21:03 — Down-regulation, pendulation, and training the nervous system itself 23:30 — [Sponsor: Total Equine by Total Feeds] 26:45 — Dopamine, "special forces" horses, and solution-seeking vs. robotic horses 32:41 — Learned helplessness: the Seligman experiment and what it does to the brain 37:27 — The five domains, agency, and why every creature needs its behavior to matter 38:55 — The freeze response, the periaqueductal gray, and the opioid flood 43:35 — When words fail the nervous system: compliance is not consent, or courage 46:53 — Dissociation, wearable tech, hyperscanning, and Peters' Substack work 50:37 — "We're stopping here": the cliffhanger into Part 2 and the real horse brain This Episode is Sponsored by: Total Feeds Our mission to provide quality nutrition to people and animals puts us in contact with all manner of interesting folks. Whether you're interested in our animal feed, or the people involved in the animal industry: you'll find it at Total Feeds! Check out our line of Quality Animal Feeds here: https://totalfeeds.com Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments.  https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App  Enjoyed this episode? Subscribe wherever you listen, leave us a review — it genuinely helps more people find these conversations — and please share this episode with someone who needs to hear it ..........thank you!!!  

Everybody wants the clear round. The win. The photo at the top of the podium. Here's the part the sport keeps offstage — the doubt, the grief, the voice at the in-gate asking if you even belong here. Joe Stockdale knows that voice well. He calls it imposter syndrome, and he feels it at the very top of show jumping, which is its own kind of honesty for a 26-year-old already riding at five-star. In 2018 he lost his dad, Tim Stockdale, to cancer. Almost overnight Joe inherited a business, a famous name, a string of owners, and a mare his father picked out before he died. A young rider usually eases into all of that across years. Joe got a phone call and a yard to run. This one goes straight at the thing under the results — what grief does to ambition, where riding confidence comes from, and why Joe would rather be home doing the work than chasing a spotlight. He takes me inside the year everything turned. Less than five years after losing his dad, he's standing at the World Championships in Herning on the mare his father found, winning team bronze for Great Britain. He says it plainly: stories like that barely happen to anyone. We talk about the people who caught him. William and Pippa Funnell, his dad's closest friends, who started watching every one of his rounds on video and calling with notes they took on their own. Joe is blunt about it — that web of mentors is the reason he's still standing here. And we get to the line I keep turning over. Joe wants the pressure: last to go in a Nations Cup, the whole thing resting on him, the chance to be the hero. Then he goes home and rides like a horseman over a competitor, because the horse gets to have an off day, and his job is to listen. When Joe was young, he told his dad he wished he could be as good as him. His dad's answer: you're going to be way better than me. Trust me. He carries that. You can hear it. If you've ever stood at the edge of something you wanted, certain everyone could see right through you — this one is for you. Riding confidence, the real kind, sounds a lot like Joe describes it here: hours of work off-camera, so you're ready the day someone finally watches. Joe Stockdale is a British show jumper based at the family yard his parents made with their own hands. He rides for Great Britain at five-star level and trains alongside his mentors William and Pippa Funnell. His late father, Tim Stockdale, was a well-regarded British show jumper who selected the mare Joe later took to the World Championships. If someone you love is carrying a name, a loss, or a doubt they keep to themselves — send them this one. You can find out more about Joe Stockdale here: website | instagram | youtube This episode is sponsored by - Connaway & Associates Equine Insurance Services, Inc. The friendly and knowledgeable team at Connaway & Associates brings together more than 30 years of experience to offer a wide range of insurance services, including horse insurance, farm insurance, and liability insurance. Visit www.connaway.net | @connawayassociates | facebook.com/connawayassociatesequine   Chapters 2:42 — Losing a parent young: the grief he and Noelle share 6:55 — A famous name, two paths, and the weight of a legacy 22:00 — Inheriting a yard, a system, and his dad's owners 24:34 — William & Pippa Funnell: the mentors who answered the phone 30:10 — From loss to bronze: the World Championships in Herning 41:29 — Home vs the spotlight: wanting the pressure 46:54 — The Olympic medal on the bingo card 56:18 — Patience: letting the horse have an off day 57:18 — Why John Whitaker is the greatest horseman 1:01:52 — Mares, stallions, geldings Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments.  https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening!  

There is a question almost every one of us carries to the barn and never says out loud. Not how do I get him to do this. But: does he actually trust me — or is he just complying? This is Part 2 of my conversation with Elsa Sinclair, and it's the half where I kept having to stop and close my eyes. Because Elsa reads horse behavior in a way most of us were never taught to. She breaks leadership into five kinds — dominant, persistent, assertive, passive, supportive — and then says the thing that reorganized my brain: that leadership is simply any action that results in harmony. That dominance and abuse are not the same thing. She takes us back inside the year she spent with a wild mustang named Myrnah — three to six hours a day, five days a week. The morning she got on at three months, did it badly, and wasn't allowed back on for another three. Not because anything went wrong. Because her timing was off by a hair, and the horse simply told the truth about it. Then comes the line I haven't stopped repeating: "I'm not going to try to be the best horse trainer in the room. I'm going to try to be the most accurate." This is freedom based training as a craft — not a philosophy you admire from a distance, but a practice you can take to the barn tomorrow. Elsa shows how to actually see a horse's thought before you reward it — the ear that flicks, the eye that moves, the breath — and gives a homework exercise you can start in the morning. We get into why hyperfocus on the goal keeps you tripping over the next step. Why confidence, quietly, trumps every strategy. And Atlas — the horse she bought off a slaughter truck, the one who broke everything she thought she knew. If you've ever felt like you're learning too slowly with your horse, this episode reframes that ache as the whole point. Elsa Sinclair is a lifelong horsewoman, horse behavior researcher, and filmmaker. Her year with the mustang Myrnah became a documentary, Taming Wild, and a book by the same name. She now teaches freedom based training to students across Europe, Australia, and New Zealand. If you have a horse who's been trying to tell you something — this one is for you. And if you know someone still fighting the horse they love, send it to them. IN THIS EPISODE YOU'LL LEARN Elsa's full leadership spectrum — dominant, persistent, assertive, passive, and supportive — and why she defines leadership as any action that results in harmony The difference between dominance and abuse, and how a single raised hand tells her which one a horse has lived through Why she got on Myrnah bareback and bridleless at three months — and the timing mistake that cost her the next three The distinction between feel and timing, and why she'd rather be the most accurate trainer in the room than the best one How to read a horse's thoughts through its senses instead of projecting the thought you wish were there Why confidence can trump every technique, and how to build it from the bottom up if you don't have it yet The case for the slowest training method on Earth, and how slowing down actually deepens what you learn To find out more about Elsa Sinclair: website | instagram | facebook | patreon CHAPTERS & TIMESTAMPS [00:00] Leadership options most training never breaks down [00:23] The leadership spectrum: dominant, persistent, and assertive [04:36] Building it bottom-up: passive and supportive leadership [07:30] Riding bridleless: the year with Myrnah, and getting on at three months [10:00] Feel versus timing, and rewarding the thought, not the action [12:47] Why she'd rather be the most accurate trainer than the best [15:33] Untraining yourself: the sensory system over mechanical habit [21:44] "Playing in Puddles": letting go of the goal of riding [36:00] The horse who decided humans always make bad decisions [40:20] Confidence wins: when it trumps every technique [45:36] The two horses who shaped her: the generous one and the mold-breaker [54:00] The beauty of slowness, and learning to enjoy the snail's pace [56:24] Rapid fire: the one book, the most undervalued skill, mares vs stallions This Episode is Sponsored by: Total Feeds Our mission to provide quality nutrition to people and animals puts us in contact with all manner of interesting folks. Whether you're interested in our animal feed, or the people involved in the animal industry: you'll find it at Total Feeds! Check out our line of Quality Animal Feeds here: https://totalfeeds.com Interested in more from Noëlle? Noëlle's writing again — head to her Substack for essays, observations, and the kind of thinking that doesn't fit in an episode. https://noellefloyd.substack.com Every episode is also on YouTube, where the conversation continues in the comments.  https://www.youtube.com/@noellefloyd_plus And if you're ready to go deeper, NF+ is where the real work happens — masterclasses, curated content, and a community that takes horses seriously. https://noellefloydplus.com You can also download the app - NF+ App Thank you for your listening!