Idealism vs. Pragmatism in Canine Training: Behavioral Science with Dr. Stewart Hilliard

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw and Dr. Stewart Hilliard discuss: Why your dog training should be based on theory, pragmatic results, and experience. Theoretical vs intuitive dog training.  How is idealist training different from pragmatic training?  Why you should not be removing all stressors from your dog training.  Control and learned helplessness.   Key Takeaways: Dog training is a long series of lonely decisions. You are a team of one training your dog, and even if you have a coach, in the moment, you are the one making each decision based on the problem facing you in the moment. Technical training is great, but you do need to be able to generalize the training for different locations and situations for the best results. If, in the course of doing its job, your dog will face adversity, then having a background in overcoming some adversity in training is going to stand the dog in good stead. There is considerable discussion and data that speak to the point that the ideal state for an animal to develop in is not necessarily one that is free of stress. Aversive control can be used without producing bad welfare for the subjects of the training. On the flip side, excellent positive reinforcement technicians also produce really good results in dog training.  Animals in avoidance are not running from something; they are running to something safe.    "If you want to engage with dogs intellectually, they're a very rich topic for intellectual engagement, because they're super interesting. And you can look at them at any level you want; you can look at dog training at any level you want. And for some people, the pathway to getting really good is becoming theoretically very, very strong." —  Dr. Stewart Hilliard   Episode References:  Go to Kynology.org now and start an account to stay up to date on Kynology events, upcoming resources, and products!   Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Stewart:  Website: https://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/  Book: Schutzhund, Theory and Training Methods - A Book by Susan Barwig and Stewart Hilliard, Ph.D. - https://www.amazon.com/Schutzhund-Theory-Training-Methods-Reference/dp/0876057318   Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training:  www.tarheelcanine.com YouTube:  tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon:   patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com The Drive Company: thedriveco.com  The Drive Company Instagram: instagram.com/thedrive.co  Dog Armour: dogarmour.com  Dog Armour Instagram: instagram.com/dogarmourpro  Rogue Arsenal: roguearsenal.com  Rogue Arsenal Instagram: instagram.com/rogue_arsenal_official    Train hard, train smart, be safe.     Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw discusses: What judges are looking for during the PSA Carjack Exercise. Safety precautions and training progressions for decoys, dogs, and trainers.  Keeping your dog focused in the right place.  Rewarding, capping, and knowing your dog's limits.   Key Takeaways: In training, you should be training in neutrality as you prepare for your PDC. Just because they have the skills in the exercise does not mean they are prepared for the neutrality between exercises.  If you are able to, get a vehicle to train with your PSA club on these Carjack Exercises. There are a lot of progressions you can do as you work up to the full exercise. It is the first impression of the aggression that's going to catch the judge's eye. Spend time focusing on transitions. Even in PDC, there are transitions you can work on. A good transition can help you be well prepared.    "One of the big mistakes I see is rushing into the vehicle without doing the proper neutrality to the vehicle when they're younger, not doing the proper neutrality to the vehicle, where they now have to experience the bite work, in addition to the unstable footing, and in addition to the enclosed area, the tight space of the vehicle. All of these things impinge on the dog's experience during that carjacking exercise." — Jerry Bradshaw   Episode References:  Josh Kirby at Kirby K9 / Demanet: www.k9irby.com More information on the Kynology Seminar with Dr. Stewart Hilliard: https://kynology.org/     Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training:  www.tarheelcanine.com YouTube:  tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon:   patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com The Drive Company: thedriveco.com  The Drive Company Instagram: instagram.com/thedrive.co  Dog Armour: dogarmour.com  Dog Armour Instagram: instagram.com/dogarmourpro  Rogue Arsenal: roguearsenal.com  Rogue Arsenal Instagram: instagram.com/rogue_arsenal_official    Train hard, train smart, be safe.     Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw discusses: Bridging the gap from training to deployment with low-profile equipment.  Comparing traditional and modern low-profile equipment. Mistakes to avoid with low-profile equipment.  Importance of having properly fitted equipment.  Training progressions with low-profile equipment.    Key Takeaways: Ideally, low-profile equipment contains both lower visibility and lower odor profiles. It is critical for the dog to feel the human underneath the equipment. While you should have protection, training the dog to find the human is also important. If a dog can't be satisfied with the bite they are getting on a suit, they may look for the human underneath and bite outside of the typical areas, such as ankles, which can cause more harm.  Use training techniques like equipment shredding drills to improve the dog's ability to find and get a successful bite.   "When we're introducing the hidden equipment, usually we want to introduce it in such a way that we can maximize the dog's experience, including having them in the right mood that we want them in when they're experiencing this hidden equipment. We also want to have decoy safety." —  Jerry Bradshaw   Episode References:  Josh Kirby at Kirby K9 / Demanet: www.k9irby.com Thad Peterson at Seynaeve US: www.seynaeve.us & www.ringsuits.com Dog Armour: www.DogArmour.com   More information on the Kynology Seminar with Dr. Stewart Hilliard: https://kynology.org/    Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training:  www.tarheelcanine.com YouTube:  tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon:   patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com The Drive Company: https://thedriveco.com/  The Drive Company Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedrive.co  Dog Armour: http://www.dogarmour.com/  Rogue Arsenal: https://roguearsenal.com/    Find out more about Hold The Line Conference 2026 at https://htlk9.com/    Train Hard, train smart, be safe.     Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw discusses: Pros and cons of prosthetics for canine training. The importance of teaching your dog to find the human being in the bite. Why training biting across different textures is key. Tips for safely and effectively utilizing prosthetics in training.    Key Takeaways: When you're trying to approximate down in training and are using equipment, you want to use equipment that is as thin as possible, but as thick as necessary. If you're beginning training with prosthetics, the arms can be a little easier to work with at first.  Leverage your dog's bite command right before they engage. If there is any confusion, leverage what they already know to get the behavior you're looking for.  Decoy schools should be teaching how to safely and properly incorporate prosthetic equipment.    "Biting any kind of equipment, the dogs are going to get used to a texture that gives their teeth some purchase in that particular piece of equipment…And so we want to make sure that they're willing to engage that new texture. We want to take advantage when we first introduce these things." —  Jerry Bradshaw   Episode References: Check out the Training Videos by Steve Sprouse at: https://www.arminleggan.com/  More information on the Kynology Seminar with Dr. Stewart Hilliard: https://kynology.org/    Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training:  www.tarheelcanine.com YouTube:  tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon:   patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org The Drive Company: https://thedriveco.com/  The Drive Company Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedrive.co  Dog Armour: http://www.dogarmour.com/  Rogue Arsenal: https://roguearsenal.com/    Train hard, train smart, be safe.     Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw and Dr. Stewart Hilliard discuss: The debate between purely positive training and balanced training.  How Kynology goes deeper than just basic dog training.  Ways in which the scientific process in research can go wrong.  The role of a canine trainer is to teach their dog to handle stress.  Stewart's two answers to the question "Why do you need aggression?"   Key Takeaways: While there are about 25 research studies that create the canon of dog training, a lot of them are based on pure science or theory alone and do not actually understand the practicality of dog training.  Research is often not replicated enough to know if the original model and data were structured and analyzed properly.  Punishing behaviors into existence is not really a thing that happens in real life, human, ethical training.  Good practitioners don't teach with adversives. They use aversives to facilitate generalization of behaviors that are established using positive reinforcement and generalization of those behaviors to different physiological and emotional states.   "You and I, in February, are going to run a seminar under the aegis of kynology. It's an effort…to provide really good, solid, formal education to other kynologists - which means people who are really, really interested in dogs, dog behavior, and learning. Not in a casual way, but those who want to know everything they can." —  Dr. Stewart Hilliard   Episode References:  Go to Kynology.org now and start an account to stay up to date on Kynology events, upcoming resources, and products!   Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Stewart:  Website: https://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/  Book:  Schutzhund, Theory and Training Methods - A Book by Susan Barwig and Stewart Hilliard, Ph.D. - https://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/product/B-SCH-BAR/Schutzhund-Theory-and-Training-Methods-A-Book-by-Susan-Barwig-and-Stewart-Hilliard-PhD      Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training: www.tarheelcanine.com YouTube:  tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon:   patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com The Drive Company: https://thedriveco.com/  The Drive Company Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedrive.co    Find out more about Hold The Line Conference 2024 at https://htlk9.com/    Train hard, train smart, be safe.     Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw discusses: Canine independence - identifying the problem and how to solve it.  Why you might need to be doing less obedience training.  Training independence behaviors.  Creating hunting games with progression for puppies of all ages.  Working with your dog near and away from you so they are comfortable in both positions.   Key Takeaways: Balance the inward and outward focus in your puppy training.  Wind plays a very important role in the hunting games. The windier it is, the narrower the scent cone; the less wind, the wider it is.  Watch your dog's intensity and speed and adjust the game accordingly. You don't want to push too fast, but you don't want them to get bored either. Progressive complexity should be done in a variable way. Some hunts should be easier and some should be harder.  Do not step in and solve problems for your dog; work on independent work. That stops it from being independent work.   "We're trying to create independence. So it's very important that when we start initiating these predatory sequences, the dog will start to, on his own, realize he and only he is going to be the one that can solve this problem, and you are irrelevant in this situation. And that's exactly what we're trying to teach, that there are going to be times where the dog has to work and you are going to be irrelevant." —  Jerry Bradshaw   Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training:  www.tarheelcanine.com YouTube:  tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon: patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com The Drive Company: https://thedriveco.com/  The Drive Company Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedrive.co    Find out more about Hold The Line Conference 2026 at https://htlk9.com/    Train hard, train smart, be safe.   Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw and Cameron Ford discuss: The creation of PSA and evolution of dog sport. How the rigidity in traditional dog sports has led to innovation and creativity. Being open to adaptation not fighting against it. Increasing complexity in training detection.  The responsibility of having an online platform for your dog training.  Training based on experience and on research.    Key Takeaways: PSA exploded in popularity the last decade due to the prevalence of younger trainers and social media.  A lot of traditional dog sport is built around breeding programs and registering your dogs. PSA allows for dogs of any breed and age as long as they can handle the training.  If you're interested in your dogs learning detection, teach your puppies to track and hunt. It is key for police work.  Training detection dogs is about more than odor, no matter what changes have occurred over the years.  Adjusting to what the dog is doing during training when they aren't following your progressions is where the fun and intrigue comes in.  Training is not a race. Do it right from the beginning and it will create a stronger, better dog than if you try and do it all in just a few weeks.    "Unfortunately, a lot of dog trainers get married to doing something because it's the way they've always done and they feel comfortable with it. But I think you have to be smart enough to jettison what's not working or is less efficient." —  Jerry Bradshaw   Contact Cameron: Website: https://www.fordk9.com/  Website: https://stratosk9.com/ K9s Talking Scents: https://www.fordk9.com/podcasts/   YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbLa_PL0uHeOK5WsSgjR-Mw  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/fordk9/    Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training:  www.tarheelcanine.com Youtube:  tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon:   patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com The Drive Company: https://thedriveco.com/  The Drive Company Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedrive.co    Find out more about Hold The Line Conference 2026 at https://htlk9.com/    Train Hard, train smart, be safe.   Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw and Brad Gillespie discuss: Positive and negative punishment in police dog training.  Pros, cons, and balancing the use of punishment markers.  Intentional and unintentional markers. The importance of consistency in punishment.  Marking for clearer communication. Biting through the muzzle.  Changing one variable at a time and reducing the number of variables in training.   Key Takeaways: In some cases, marking punishment may be more important than marking with positive reinforcement. Following the punishment marker with the punishment allows the dogs to understand what is happening. Be careful about the overuse of those punishment markers. They can oftentimes create a drift where the marker itself becomes the signal for the dog to rectify the behavior, rather than when you give that command. You need to be consistent in your timing and ready with the punishment. Dogs are great at recognizing when things are consistent or not.  Communication is the problem with most issues we have with dogs. Marking punishment is a way that can help us to have clearer communication. Train the dog (and the handler) in a way that makes it look and feel real.   "I really think that using a marker can allow us, both on negative reinforcement and on positive punishment, to use much higher levels of stimulation, and the dogs are able to better process what's happening. We have a system, or at least a way of communicating with the dog. And I think that the marker helps them understand that a little bit better on both ends of the spectrum." —  Brad Gillespie   Contact Brad:  Website: CanadianPoliceCanine.com   Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training:  www.tarheelcanine.com YouTube:  tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon: patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com The Drive Company: https://thedriveco.com/  The Drive Company Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedrive.co    Find out more about Hold The Line Conference 2024 at https://htlk9.com/    Train Hard, train smart, be safe.   Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw and Dr. Stewart Hilliard discuss: The influence of European sport dogs in early North American working dog training. Benefits and challenges of introducing KNPV-trained dogs to the American market. Evolution of Eastern European working dog trade.  Sourcing and importing working dogs. Institutional breeding programs, increased costs, and decreased quality. The future of dog training with kynology.   Key Takeaways: KNPV (Royal Dutch Police Dog Association) dogs were the gold standard for transitioning sport dogs to dual-purpose police dog prospects.  KNPV dogs were not trained to distinguish between equipment and humans, which gave those early Malinois dogs a bad reputation. Dogs that come from a deprived background with limited experiences often need to be deprogrammed before they can be taught to forget, then taught to learn what they need to know. Don't kill your dog by playing with it. The dog's reward is not a toy; it's a reward. Toy implies play, and these are working dogs. Malinois and German Shepherd dogs are not fully adult dogs until 2.5-3. Younger dogs are more vulnerable to mistakes and stress, leaving you, as the trainer, with the technical burden of not making many mistakes.   "I think the future is going to be agency-based breeding, heavily informed by scientific practice, but also with strong participation of practitioners - practical dog people who know how to produce results. Those are the agencies that are going to do really well." —  Dr. Stewart Hilliard   Contact Stewart:  Website: https://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/  Book:  Schutzhund, Theory and Training Methods - A Book by Susan Barwig and Stewart Hilliard, Ph.D. - https://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/product/B-SCH-BAR/Schutzhund-Theory-and-Training-Methods-A-Book-by-Susan-Barwig-and-Stewart-Hilliard-PhD    Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training: www.tarheelcanine.com YouTube:  tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon: patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com The Drive Company: https://thedriveco.com/  The Drive Company Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedrive.co    Find out more about Hold The Line Conference 2024 at https://htlk9.com/    Train hard, train smart, be safe.   Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it. 

In this episode, Jerry Bradshaw discusses: Why engagement is important, what it means, and how it differs between puppies and older dogs.  The importance of rituals in engagement, no matter the location.  Developing engagement and engagement rituals.  Creating and maintaining an emotional connection with your dog, no matter your emotional state that day.    Key Takeaways: If your dog is not in the right state of mind, you're not going to achieve your training goals in a particular session. If it happens too many times, you won't be moving forward in achieving your training goals.  You should be creating an emotional connection with your dog when you're training and working with your dog.  Whether you are training at a club or in your backyard, you want the ritual to be consistent so your dog knows that it is game time.  Engagement does not just happen at the beginning of your training session - it should go through the entire session to keep the dog's attention and keep them engaged no matter how many repetitions.  Stop training when you're at the peak of it. Leave the dog wanting more for next time.    "Developing good rituals for engagement means you're going to be training better, right? You're going to be ready ahead of time. You're going to be creating expectations in your dog. When one repetition is over, we want that dog to have the expectation that they're going to get to do it again." —  Jerry Bradshaw   Get Jerry's book Controlled Aggression on Amazon.com   Contact Jerry: Website: controlledaggressionpodcast.com Email: [email protected] Tarheel Canine Training:  www.tarheelcanine.com Youtube: tarheelcanine Twitter: @tarheelcanine Instagram: @tarheelk9 Facebook: TarheelCanineTraining Protection Sports Website: psak9-as.org Patreon: patreon.com/controlledaggression Slideshare: Tarheel Canine Calendly: https://calendly.com/tarheelcanine  Tarheel Canine Seminars: https://streetreadyk9.com/  Tarheel Canine Student Portal: https://tcstudentportal.com/    Sponsors:  ALM K9 Equipment: almk9equipment.com PSA & American Schutzhund: psak9-as.org Tarheel Canine: tarheelcanine.com The Drive Company: https://thedriveco.com/  The Drive Company Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thedrive.co    Train hard, train smart, be safe.   Show notes by Podcastologist Chelsea Taylor-Sturkie   Audio production by Turnkey Podcast Productions. You're the expert. Your podcast will prove it.