Expanding our Moral Circle with Philosopher Jeff Sebo

Joe and Rolf continue their discussion of ideas relevant to AI and consciousness, this time tackling John Searle's famous Chinese Room thought experiment. Searle argues against functionalism, that that a symbol-manipulating computer lacks true understanding, even if inputs and outputs are the same as a conscious being. Common objections, as well as implications for modern AI systems, are discussed.

In this first in a series discussing the topic of AI and consciousness, Rolf and Joe discuss the Turing Test, a proposal by Alan Turing in 1950 to address the question of whether computers could think. A recent paper (Jones & Bergen, 2025) has convincing shown several LLMs to be capable of passing the test. What does this mean for thinking (or even conscious) artificial intelligence models?Jones, C. R., & Bergen, B. K. (2025). Large language models pass the turing test. arXiv preprint arXiv:2503.23674.

For the third time, Joe and Rolf talk to Dr. Balazs Szigeti about psychedelics for the treatment of depression. This time, Balazs discusses his recent paper that shows an equivalence between psychedelics and traditional medications in effectiveness for treating depression. This is surprising, given the size of effects that have been demonstrated in some early psychedelic trials, and can be accounted for, in part, by patient expectations.Williams ZJ, Barnett H, Szigeti B. Psychedelic Therapy vs Antidepressants for the Treatment of Depression Under Equal Unblinding Conditions: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis. JAMA Psychiatry. Published online March 18, 2026. doi:10.1001/jamapsychiatry.2025.4809

On this episode, Rolf and Joe talk to Dr. Valerie Bonnelle, a cognitive neuroscientist interested in the relation of processes in the body to peak experiences. We discuss her paper showing how heart rate variability and the interplay between the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems closely tracks phenomenological experience during the use of the psychedelic DMT.Bonnelle, V., Feilding, A., Rosas, F. E., Nutt, D. J., Carhart-Harris, R. L., & Timmermann, C. (2024). Autonomic nervous system activity correlates with peak experiences induced by DMT and predicts increases in well-being. Journal of Psychopharmacology, 38(10), 887-896.

What do the National Institutes of Health (NIH) do, and who works there? Rolf and Joe talk to Dr. Bradley Cooke, who works at the NIH as a Program Director in the Division of Diabetes, Endocrinology, and Metabolic Diseases (located within the National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases). Dr. Cooke talks about the research he conducted when he was in the academic world, including work on the biology of attraction and sex differences in the brain, and then discusses how the NIH monitors and guides the national research agenda, some of the essential and groundbreaking research the NIH has funded, as well as exciting research trends coming our way.

Fresh from Psychedelic Science 2025, Dr. Steve Levine, the chief patient officer at Compass Pathways, talks to us about new Phase 3 results for psilocybin in treating depression.

Joe reports back from the Psychedelic Science conference held recently again in Denver, Colorado. After some discussion about the conference, Joe speaks with Balasz Szigeti (who was on the podcast in 2023) about his recent work on the "Placebo Suppression Effect" in psychedelic research.

Joe and Rolf talk to blind activist and friend of the show Josh Miele.  Josh, a MacArthur Genuis Award winner and prodigious sushi eater, has just come out with a new autobiographical book called "Connecting Dots: A Blind Life".   We talk about his life growing up  in Park Slope, his freewheeling youth, the dog vs. cane debate, and his career as a blind accessibility scientist and inventor.

Rolf and Joe talk to NYU philosopher Jeff Sebo about his new book "The Moral Circle", which makes the case for expanding our circle of who is deserving of ethical consideration to nonhuman animals, insects, plants, and AI systems.

Rolf and Joe wrap up their 3-part series on dreaming with Finnish neuroscientist and philosopher Antti Revonsuo. Dr. Revonsuo is the originator of the Threat Simulation theory of dreams, which suggests that dreams are simulated worlds in which we may practice threatening situations. Topics include the history and methodology in dream research, how our brains create simulated worlds, the particular nature of the simulated dream world, and how this applies to waking consciousness. We base our discussion on three forthcoming papers:Revonsuo, A. (in press) Toward a Metaphysics of Consciousness: Science and the Fundamental Nature of Subjective Experience. To appear in The Scientific Study of Consciousness: Experimental and Theoretical Approaches. (Springer Nature).Revonsuo, A. & Tuominen, J. (in press) The Concept of Dreaming as a World. To appear in Threshold Worlds (Oxford University Press).Revonsuo, A., Valli, K., & Tuominen, J. (in preparation) Evolutionary Simulation Theories of Dreaming.