How Will The Russia-Ukraine War Come To An End? Deep Dive Ukraine 03: John E. Herbst

Indonesia is facing a defining question: can it continue to grow its economy while making the shift towards a greener future? In this episode of Cleaning Up, guest host Marie Cheong speaks with Sandiaga Uno, chair of Mutuagung Lestari International and former Deputy Governor of Jakarta and Minister of Tourism, about Indonesia’s potential to become a major player in the green economy, and why the country’s natural resources, growing energy needs and entrepreneurial ecosystem could create significant opportunities for climate solutions and investment.They explore whether green investing could be the next major growth opportunity, why the economics need to stack up, and how moving beyond the idea of a “green premium” towards “green discounts” could make sustainable business models more competitive. From the challenge of moving away from coal while meeting rising energy demand, to the potential of carbon credits and nature-based solutions, the conversation looks at what it will take to turn Indonesia’s green potential into real economic and environmental value and what investors should consider before taking the plunge.Topics covered in this episode:Indonesia’s green growth potentialGreen investing’s next growth cycleGreen premiums vs. green discountsPolitics and the energy transitionMoving beyond coalCarbon credits and nature-based solutionsTurning green potential into profitsWhat green investors should look forLeadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.LinksSandiaga Uno’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sandiaga-salahuddin-uno-7803b642a/ Saratoga: https://saratoga-investama.com/Sandiaga’s article for the Center for International Relations and Sustainable  Development: https://cirsd.org/horizon-article/from-rebuilding-to-refining-2/ Mutuagung Lestari Tbk (MUTU): https://mutucertification.com/en/ Subscribe to the Cleaning Up Newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com Acronyms:MUTU: Mutuagung Lestari InternationalJETP: Just Energy Transition Partnership SBY: Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, previous President of IndonesiaChapters00:00 Intro00:51 About Indonesia13:03 Saratoga’s Evolution20:47 Green Discounts26:18 Energy Transition32:08 Rising Energy Demand37:14 Growth and Policy43:23 Carbon Credits52:33 Nature-Based Solutions55:21 Climate Investing01:02:31 Outro

One of the biggest questions when it comes to the brutal and drawn-out Russia-Ukraine war is how it can be brought to an end, and crucially, could it ever be replaced by a stable peace? To understand this, we have to ask not just where we are now, but how we got here.For episode 03 of our Deep Dive Ukraine, Michael Liebreich is in Kyiv with John E. Herbst, Senior Director of the Atlantic Council’s Eurasia Centre and former US Ambassador to Ukraine, to explore the origins of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, the chance for a stable peace, Russia and Ukraine’s vulnerabilities, and the role of NATO. They also examine the changing US approach to military support and negotiations, and the risks of a peace deal that forces Ukraine to surrender territory.Topics covered in this episode:Why Putin invaded UkraineUkraine’s strikes on Russian oil infrastructureNATO expansion and Russian aggressionThe legacy of the Orange RevolutionThe cracks in Putin’s regimeTrump’s shifting approach to peaceThe risks of territorial concessionsCan Russia’s regime collapse?Links:John E. Herbst’s bio: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/expert/john-e-herbst/Atlantic Council Eurasia Center: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/programs/eurasia-center Michael’s Substack on Ukraine striking Russian oil refineries: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/why-ukraine-should-keep-striking Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com MAP - Membership Action PlanFSB - Federal Security Service (Russia)Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Chapters:00:00 Intro02:15 The Orange Revolution06:45 Putin’s Ambitions11:00 NATO and Ukraine16:30 US Policy Shifts22:00 Ukraine’s Oil Strikes26:00 Sanctions Hit Russia29:00 Cracks in Putin’s Regime36:00 Ukraine’s Winter39:00 Paths to Peace44:27 Outro 

The world needs more metals than ever before, but can the mining industry deliver the resources responsibly? The energy transition depends on the mining industry, yet the sector faces hard questions over coal, carbon emissions, environmental damage and the rights of the communities whose land and resources it extracts.This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich puts those questions directly to Rohitesh ‘Ro’ Dhawan, President and CEO of the International Council on Mining and Metals (ICMM). Can mining companies credibly commit to net-zero 2050 while continuing to produce coal? Are they taking sufficient responsibility for the emissions generated by the products they sell? And can voluntary industry standards deliver meaningful accountability, or is the industry being trusted to police itself?Michael and Ro also touch on Indigenous consent, the lengthy process of permitting new mines, the economics of mineral processing and the challenge of electrifying some of the world’s largest machines.Topics covered:Responsible mining and global standardsMining's role in the energy transitionCoal production and Scope 3 emissionsTailings dams and industrial safetyIndigenous rights and community consentFaster permitting without weaker safeguardsAfrica's mineral wealth and value chainsElectrifying giant mining trucksChina's dominance in mineral refiningAI, automation and smarter extractionLeadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Rohitesh Dhawan’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rohiteshdhawan/ ICMM: https://www.icmm.com/ Mining Indaba 2027: https://miningindaba.com/ Mark Cutifani on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P50A_NfgE2A Subscribe to the Cleaning Up newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms:NGO: Non-Governmental Organisation PRI: Principles for Responsible InvestmentESG: Environmental, Social, and GovernanceR&D: Research and Development GFRP: Glass Fibre Reinforced PolymerChapters:00:00 Intro04:12 ICMM's Role09:38 Tailings Dam Safety13:01 Investor Accountability16:13 Global Mining Standards22:47 Coal and Emissions31:20 Permitting New Mines38:17 Who Benefits from Mining?42:04 Smelting Economics47:38 Moving Up Value Chains51:29 Electrifying Mine Equipment56:06 Mining Technology Breakthroughs01:01:12 Outro

Can you make energy investments work in a country at war? Since Russia’s full-scale invasion in 2022, repeated attacks on Ukraine’s energy infrastructure have devastated its power system. By spring 2024, the country’s dispatchable generating capacity had fallen from 38 GW before the war to just 12 GW, leaving electricity in short supply and heating disrupted for many households.For this week’s Deep Dive Ukraine, Michael Liebreich is in Kyiv speaking to Andrii Gerus, Chair of the Ukrainian Parliament's Committee on Energy, Housing and Utility Services, and Dmytro Boroday, Partner at Horizon Capital, about the race to rebuild Ukraine's energy infrastructure, and the capital needed to make it happen.They examine how Ukraine is attracting international investors into wind, solar and battery storage, why distributed generation makes commercial as well as strategic sense, and how political risk insurance and development finance institutions are helping unlock projects. They also discuss the regulatory reforms needed to attract private capital, the challenge of corruption, and the potential for Ukraine to export electricity to neighbouring European markets.Topics covered in this episode:Ukraine's energy system under attackThe shift to distributed generationWhy renewables strengthen energy resilienceWhat winter is like to live throughFinancing energy projects during warWar risk insurance for private investorsAttracting international capital into UkraineUkraine's future in European electricity marketsLeadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Andrii Gerus’ bio: https://forumkyiv.org/en/speakers/andrii-gerusDmytro Boroday’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmitryboroday/Horizon Capital: https://horizoncapital.com.ua/ European Energy Community fund: https://www.energy-community.org/Ukraine/Fund/overview.html Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms:CHP: Combined Heat and PowerTSO: Transmission System Operator DSO: Distribution System OperatorsIRR: Internal Rate of ReturnIC: Investment CommitteeGP: General PartnerLP: Limited PartnerEBRD: European Bank for Reconstruction DevelopmentIFC: International Finance CorporationDFI: Direct Foreign InvestmentPPA: Power Purchasing Agreement BESS: Battery Energy Storage SystemMIGA: Multilateral Investment Guarantee AgencyChapters:0:00 Intro 1:06 Ukraine's Energy Crisis3:29 Soviet Energy System6:46 War Damage10:09 Distributed Energy13:31 Attracting Investors17:03 War Risk Insurance21:19 Corruption and Reform27:04 Investing in Reconstruction35:16 Financing New Renewables41:03 Investing During War47:26 Insurance Against War51:26 Invitation To Investors 53:58 Outro

The world is facing a new era of geopolitical instability, rising energy costs and declining development finance. For many countries, access to reliable, affordable energy is no longer just an economic priority, it is a question of security.Recorded in New York during the United Nations General Assembly and Climate Week, this episode of Cleaning Up sees guest host Ana Rovzar, Chief of Staff at the Global Renewables Alliance, speak with Alexander De Croo, former Prime Minister of Belgium and now Administrator of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP).They explore how renewable energy can reduce dependence on volatile fossil fuel markets, how decentralised energy systems can strengthen resilience, and what Ukraine’s experience reveals about protecting critical energy infrastructure. The conversation also examines how to attract investment in grids and clean energy, the decline in development assistance, and AI’s potential to accelerate progress.Topics covered in this episode:Energy security as national securityRenewables and fossil fuel dependenceFinancing the global energy transitionUkraine's decentralised energy reconstructionWhy grids are holding back progressDe-risking investment in emerging marketsTurning climate targets into actionAI's potential to accelerate developmentLeadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Alexander De Croo’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexanderdecroo/ Ana Rovzar’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ana-rovzar-2546b149/ Achim Steiner on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2prrV1dPSUI Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Michael Liebreich’s Pragmatic Climate Reset:  https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-the-pragmatic-climate-reset-part-i/Acronyms:UNDP: United Nations Development ProgrammeUNGA: United Nations General AssemblyUNEP: United Nations Environmental ProgrammeODA: Official Development AssistanceSDG: Sustainable Development GoalOECD: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and DevelopmentChapters:00:00 Intro04:56 UNDP’s Mission07:11 Rethinking Development14:19 Energy Security17:39 Grids and Resilience25:52 From Ambition to Action28:23 Financing the Transition36:44 Development and Security41:27 De-risking Investment45:05 UN Funding50:06 AI and Development57:03 Outro

It's been over four and a half years since Russia unleashed its full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and still the war shows no sign of stopping. This week on Cleaning Up, we launch a new Deep Dive looking at Ukraine and how its people and energy systems cope through the war.In this first episode, Michael Liebreich travels to Kyiv to find out what is happening on the ground. How are people coping with these desperate and difficult circumstances? How is the energy system coping? What can we in the international community do to help? And what do we need to learn from Ukraine's energy workers, how have they managed to keep the lights on?In Kyiv, Michael meets Oleksandr Tolokonnikov, Deputy Head of the Kherson Regional Military Administration, to find out how a region on the frontlines is coping with constant bombardment from Russian drones and missiles. He also speaks with Sorina Seitvelieva and Emine Emirsalieva, co-owners of Musafir, a Crimean Tatar restaurant that’s become known as a resilience hub, keeping people fed and warm during winter. And he ventures to an electricity substation under renovation, where he is shown around Oleksandr Kozhukhar, head of the high-voltage network operations department at DTEK Kyiv Grids. Oleksandr tells Michael how he keeps his team safe as they repair Kyiv’s battered electricity system, and why it’s so dangerous being an energy worker in Ukraine.  From backup generators and emergency repairs to the challenges of protecting critical infrastructure from drones and missiles, the episode explores what resilience looks like in practice. It also asks what the rest of the world can learn from Ukraine’s experience, and what support is needed as the country prepares for another winter of war.Topics discussed in this episode:Energy workers repairing infrastructure under firePreparing Ukraine’s energy system for winterWhat life is like under constant drone attacksKherson’s fight to survive, and why civilians refuse to leaveHow local businesses are coping with damaged energy infrastructureThanks to all those who made this episode possible. In particular, Imogen Payter, Heather Buchanan and UK Friends of Ukraine, who've led over 30 parliamentary trips to Kyiv. Gary Edwards and the team at Frontier Global for keeping us safe. Special mention goes to Dominic Culverwell at the Kyiv Independent and Maria Vlokh for her help with translation. Jo Jagger for making sure it happened, the rest of the Cleaning Up team and our Leadership Circle. And to Oscar Boyd, who produced, filmed and edited this episode.Leadership CircleCleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.LinksOleksandr Tolokonnikov’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oleksandr-tolokonnikov/   Unbreakable Kherson book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Unbreakable-Kherson-Ukrainian-Wartime-Resilience/dp/B0H6CYRFH7 DTEK Group: https://dtek.com/en/ Musafir restaurant: https://www.musafir.com.ua/en/UK Friends of Ukraine: https://friendsofukraine.uk/ Kyiv Independent: https://kyivindependent.com/Sign up to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com“мета ”: Ukrainian meaning goal/purpose/aimChapters00:00 Intro01:40 Journey Into Ukraine04:15 Life During War05:55 The Kherson Frontline09:26 Community Resilience12:38 Preparing For Winter13:31 Energy Security Lessons15:04 The Drone Warfare Threat19:03 Life In Kyiv20:40 Musafir Restaurant29:45 Keeping Ukraine Powered35:35 Lessons For Europe37:49 Outro

There's an old joke that energy from nuclear fusion is 30 years away and always will be. For many decades, the industry did little to spoil the fun, running mammoth and unwieldy research projects, hoovering up a few billion dollars every science funding cycle and announcing breakthroughs that were scientifically interesting, but did little to move us towards actual production of electricity.Then three things happened. First, perhaps emboldened by Elon Musk's successful disruption of the space industry with SpaceX, a bunch of wealthy investors started to invest in much nimbler startups. Second, in December 2022, the National Ignition Facility at the US's Lawrence Livermore National Lab announced that it had finally got more energy out of a fusion experiment than it had put in. And third, AI exploded on the scene, offering dramatic acceleration in everything. These developments have turned the slow-moving world of fusion on its head.Over $14 billion has now flowed into fusion startups, and that is on top of the tens of billions already committed to national and international programs, like the International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (ITER) in France, the UK's Spherical Tokamak for Energy Production (STEP) and a variety of US national labs. This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with the director of one of those labs.Professor Sir Steven Cowley has been entrusted with leading one of the jewels in the US's scientific crown. He has dedicated his academic career to trying to make fusion energy work, and he's been known to joke that he hopes it does so before he dies.Michael and Steven discuss the breakthrough experiments that have shown fusion is possible, why getting from a successful experiment to a commercial power station is such a huge leap, and whether fusion can ever deliver affordable, dispatchable electricity. Steven puts forward the idea that fusion might have a Theranos moment, where over-promises in the industry come back to bite.Topics discussed in this episode:How fusion actually worksFrom experiments to electricityLaser versus magnetic fusionThe commercial fusion challengeHow AI can transform fusion researchFusion versus renewables and batteriesLeadership CircleCleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Steven's TED Talk from 2009: https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_cowley_fusion_is_energy_s_future Steven’s talk at IPAM 2026: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USPd6zvA8pk  Steven's talk at SOSV Steven’s talk at DeepTech Live, 2026: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-kb3784BPYPrinceton Plasma Physics Lab: https://www.pppl.gov/   Hax Plasma Forge Incubator: https://hax.co/Aneeqa Khan on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhEoMd7DEho Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms:ITER: International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor STEP: Spherical Tokamak for Energy ProductionJET: Joint European TorusTFTR: Tokamak Fusion Test Reactor DOE: Department of Energy (US)FLiBe: Fluoride Lithium BerylliumNIF: National Ignition Facility  Chapters:00:00 Intro03:24 Career in fusion06:39 Commercial fusion10:26 Laser fusion18:40 Breeding tritium23:33 Fusion startups25:24 Laser versus magnets29:21 Magnetic fusion35:35 Reactor optimisation40:35 AI controls fusion44:52 Spherical tokamaks46:33 Reversed-field fusion49:24 Private fusion53:07 Fusion economics56:30 The future57:14 Outro

This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington is joined by Peter Cox, Professor of Climate System Dynamics at the University of Exeter and Director of the Global Systems Institute. A former lead author of the IPCC climate reports, Peter has spent decades studying the complex feedbacks between the climate, carbon cycle and natural world. They delve into some of the biggest questions in climate science today: Is the planet warming faster than we thought? What is the role of forcing versus feedback? How much of the recent change is being driven by external forces, including the decline of reflective sulphur pollution, and how much is the climate system responding in ways that amplify warming?  They explore why the Earth is reflecting less sunlight back into space, the growing Earth energy imbalance, climate sensitivity, tipping points in the Amazon and Arctic, and whether solar radiation modification should remain taboo.Topics discussed in this episode:Why the Earth is darkeningIs global warming accelerating?The Earth’s energy imbalanceClimate sensitivity and feedbacksAmazon and Arctic tipping pointsThe hidden cooling from pollutionGeoengineering the planetPositive clean energy tipping pointsLeadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Professor Peter Cox’s bio: https://experts.exeter.ac.uk/962-peter-cox/about Professor Cox’s publications: https://experts.exeter.ac.uk/962-peter-cox/publications Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.comAcronyms:IPCC: Intergovernmental Panel on Climate ChangeCMIP6: Coupled Model Intercomparison Project 6CERES: Clouds and the Earth's Radiant Energy SystemARIA: Advanced Research and Invention Agency SO2: Sulphur DioxideRCP8.5: Representative Concentration Pathway 8.5SSP5-85: Shared Socioeconomic Pathway 5 - Radiative Forcing 8.5IAM: Integrated Assessment ModelAMOC: Atlantic Meridional Overturning CirculationPV: PhotovoltaicsSRM: Solar Radiation ModificationChapters00:00 Coming Up01:08 Professor Peter Cox03:40 Climate System Modelling07:36 Climate Tipping Points17:04 Accelerating Global Warming18:57 Earth’s Energy Imbalance22:13 The Darkening Planet37:59 Rethinking Climate Scenarios45:59 Positive Tipping Points52:24 Geoengineering The Planet 01:05:14 Outro

Around two-thirds of the energy we put into today’s energy system ends up as rejected heat. So are we measuring the energy transition all wrong?Professor Jan Rosenow joins Michael Liebreich to unpack the “primary energy fallacy”: why focusing on the energy going into the system can obscure the useful energy we actually get out.They explore why electrification can dramatically reduce energy demand, and what genuine systems thinking means for efficiency, waste heat and infrastructure. They also examine hydrogen versus electrification, including Jan’s review of more than 60 independent studies on hydrogen for heating, why hydrogen continues to attract support despite its disadvantages in many end uses, and how incumbent industries resist technological change.Key topics discussed:The primary energy fallacy Why useful energy mattersThe hidden inefficiency of fossil fuelsElectrification and shrinking energy demandRethinking energy efficiency through systems thinkingMaking better use of waste heatWhy energy statistics can misrepresent the transitionHydrogen vs electrification for heatingWhy incumbent technologies resist changeLeadership CircleCleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Jan Rosenow’s bio: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/find-an-expert/professor-jan-rosenow Jan Rosenow’s Substack: https://janrosenow.substack.com/ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Sankey Diagram: https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/sites/flowcharts/files/2026-08/2024-us-energy-flowchart-homepage.jpg Michael Liebreich’s “The Five Superheroes Of The Transition” article: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-ii-easier/ Our World In Data Energy Consumption Chart: https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption Innovation and Its Enemies: Why People Resist New Technologies book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Innovation-Its-Enemies-People-Technologies/dp/019046703 Jonathan Maxwell on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcN3Bqq8ehA Rob Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3wJorgo Chatzimarkakis on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NCiEhprSOc Subscribe to Cleaning Up’s newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms:LNG: Liquefied Natural GasIEA: International Energy Agency, EIA: Energy Information Administration.IIASA: International Institute for Applied Systems AnalysisOECD: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and DevelopmentChapters:00:00 Introduction07:34 Primary Energy Fallacy15:14 Fossil Fuel Inefficiency24:44 Rethinking Energy Efficiency27:05 Using Waste Heat35:00 Misleading Energy Statistics43:12 Hydrogen vs Electrification49:48 Resisting Technological Change58:00 Hydrogen Europe 01:03:14 Outro

More than 80% of the world’s advanced AI compute is concentrated in the US and China. For Europe and other middle powers, the question may no longer be how to win the AI race, but how to avoid becoming dangerously dependent on those that do.This week on Cleaning Up, James Cameron, Chair of Cleaning Up’s Editorial Council, takes over as guest host. He speaks with Sam Winter-Levy, Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and Afonso Salema, CEO of Exus Digital and founder of TerraByte Data Centers, about how compute is becoming a strategic resource.They explore how access to power and the grid is shaping where billions of dollars of AI infrastructure gets built, and how data centres could become a source of geopolitical leverage. They also discuss the security and public backlash facing this critical infrastructure, and whether AI’s enormous appetite for electricity could ultimately accelerate the clean energy transition.Topics covered in this episode:Compute as a strategic resourceThe US-China race for AIWhy Europe is falling behindAI’s rapidly growing electricity demandWhere the world builds data centresProtecting data centres from attackWeaponising chips and AI accessThe political backlash against data centresCan AI accelerate clean energy?Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live.Links:Afonso Salema’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/afonso-salema-336320/Sam Winter-Levy’s bio: https://carnegieendowment.org/people/sam-winter-levyJames Cameron’s bio: https://www.james-cameron.co.uk/bioCleaning Up 235. Inside Start Campus, Europe’s largest data centre: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3wJames Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn7GKiW5E4kJames Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2025: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPPjAbSxl5cSubscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/The Stanford 2026 AI index: https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-reportEdelman Trust in AI poll: https://www.edelman.com/trust/2025/trust-barometer/report-tech-sectorAcronyms:AWS: Amazon Web ServicesNIMBY: "Not In My Back Yard"Chapters:00:00 Introduction02:02 AI, security, geopolitics05:01 Compute as power11:34 The global AI race14:07 Building data centres18:02 Defending critical infrastructure23:53 Who pays for security?29:24 Designing for resilience32:48 Weaponising AI access40:02 Data centre backlash49:56 The balance of power54:09 Can Europe catch up?59:43 AI and clean energy01:04:01 Outro