166: Harriet Knight and Hannah Penn on an agency world that’s open to all

This week we made difficult phone-calls to Ant & Dec, Torvill & Dean and, accidentally, the Neville Brothers, all in order to explain that the nation now has a new favourite double act – the joint chiefs of Pablo, Harriet Knight and Hannah Penn. Not content with leading Pablo to the very top of the creative charts in agency land – scooping up the Global Campaign Indie of the Year award on two separate occasions – H&H have set about tearing up the dusty old rulebook for agency leadership (especially all those pages about being greedy and horrible). They’ve poured their considerable energies into actually delivering the kind of culture every agency pretends they have, and even launched the Pablo Living Wage, a £30,000 minimum salary for entry level roles that opens up the industry to people who are usually left on the side-lines.  As well as turning Pablo into the creative, and cultural envy of agency world, Harriet and Hannah are also responsible for one of the most successful agency models around – earning a reputation for being superb to work with that translates into a barely believable 100% client retention rate.   In an episode that puts us all in the uncomfortable position of listening to agency bosses who are actually likeable and amusing, we ponder everything from how agency cultures are created to the dynamics that make their partnership tick.  This episode is proudly dedicated to Dan Watts.    Follow Hannah and Harriet on LinkedIn. /////   Timestamps 03:00 - Early Career Paths: Hannah's Journey 09:00 - Harriet's Background and Transition to Advertising 15:00 - The Importance of Diverse Experiences in Advertising 18:00 - Creative and Commercial Balance in Advertising 22:00 - How Harriet and Hannah Met 25:00 - The Dynamics of Their Partnership 29:00 - Legacy and Impact in the Advertising Industry Hannah and Harriet’s Book Recommendations are: Four Thousand Weeks– Oliver Burkeman Cork Dork – Bianca Bosko Super Communicators- Charles Duhigg /////

This week we tried to arrange a VIP brand event for Call To Action® fans in an abandoned toilet brush factory, all just to prove our cool credentials to Charlie Copsey, the founder of Underground Fan Club. Having conquered the media mountain earlier in her career – working in TV, radio and film with the likes of Johnny Vaughan and her good pal Colin Murray – Charlie realised that her next great mission would be to rescue fan experiences from the desperately dull doldrums they were in at the time. From there Underground Fan Club was born – a studio devoted to producing more memorable, more believable and more exciting experiences between brands, fans and talent. At the heart of the mission is something many marketers bang on about with no clue, or care, about what it means in reality – authentic connections with your most valuable audience, something Charlie is already proving to be much more than the same old brand baloney.  There’s an increasingly long line of brands queuing up for the Underground treatment but luckily for your ears and brains, CTA is nothing if not a queue jumper.  In an episode that’s all about fans, super-fans, stan-fans and ceiling fans (not that one) we learn what it takes for your brand to actually mean something more to the people you’re doing it all for. This episode is proudly dedicated to Colin Murray.   /////  04:09 - Studying Drama at Loughborough  10:12 - Working with Johnny Vaughan  12:28 - The Evolution of Fighting Talk and Live Events  16:38 - Identifying the Gap: Connecting Talent and Fans  17:52 - Building Underground Fan Club: The First Event  20:32 - The Importance of Authentic Experiences  22:21 - Navigating Brand Partnerships  26:13 - Finding the Right Brand Partners  28:05 - Balancing Involvement in Events  32:29 - The Challenges of Running a Business Charlie’s Book Recommendations are: Careless People - Sarah Wynn-Williams Shoe Dog – Phil Knight  Losing my Virginity – Richard Branson /////

This week we kept shouting things like HIT ME! TWIST! GO FISH! WHAT’S A SPADE? In order to win the professional attention, and personal sympathy, of Jo Living – founder of ‘poker for business’ consultancy Aces High. Having noticed that poker was less about bluff and bravado and more about strategy, empathy and teamwork, Jo realised it could be the perfect game for teaching people how to make smarter business decisions. From there she went on to run workshops teaching everything from communication and negotiation, to assertiveness and risk management, all done eye-to-eye through what she calls the ‘contact’ sport of poker. It’s an episode where we try very hard not to say things about ‘laying the cards on the table’ (but probably won’t succeed) covering everything from the real-world value of a poker face to the power of a timely pause.   This episode is proudly dedicated to Adam Living.    Follow Jo on LinkedIn. /////   Timestamps 07:33 - Investment Banking Experience 10:32 - Quarter Life Crisis 15:47 - The Poker Environment 18:15 - Poker as a Game of Strategy 19:50 - Women in Poker 22:39 - Parallels Between Poker and Business 26:02 - Skills Developed Through Poker 29:02 - The Power of the Pause 31:37 - Identifying Leadership Traits 37:13 - Getting More Women at the Table 39:12 - Subtle Tells for Leadership  Jo’s Book Recommendations are: Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke /////

This week we donned a smelly neon bib, distributed some tiny cones and shouted things like ‘THAT’S NEVER A PEN’ all in order to win the attention of Karen Dobres, one of the sporting world’s most genuine game changers. Advocating for equal budgets, facilities and recognition in women’s sport with all the tenacity of a crunching, shin-pad obliterating tackle, Karen is the co-founder of Equality FC and the Sistership Network. Her new book, soon to hit the shops, is called Pitch Invasion and tells the tale of her experiences as a feminist on the board of Lewes FC, the world’s first (hurray) and only (boo) equal football club. And, with all the creative energy of a box-to-box midfield dynamo, she’s also helped establish the #CallHimOut initiative, has served as a judge on the UN Women UK Awards, managed a counselling service at Polygram Records and, just because she could, helped arrange the installation of a statue celebrating bisexual female pirates. It’s an episode where we chatter ‘in and around’ all things relating to her hopes for women’s sport, the impact of equality on crowds and culture and the value of being an outsider.  This episode is proudly dedicated to Marios Christos Sfantos Follow Karen on LinkedIn. ///// Timestamps 06:10 - From Journalism Aspirations to Modelling 08:45 - Transitioning to Counselling and Music Industry 12:40 - Discovering Women's Football 15:31 - Feminizing the Football Environment at Lewis FC 18:14 - Impact of Equality on Crowds and Culture 24:48 - Challenges Faced by Women in Football 27:25 - Creating a Supportive Community through Football 30:37 - Football as a Vehicle for Social Change 32:06 - The Value of Being an Outsider in Football 34:15 - Pitch Invasion: Karen's Book Karen's Book Recommendations are: A Room of One's Own by Virginia Woolf Why Men Win at Work by Jill Whitty Collins /////

This week we kept on adding more and more and more irrelevant attachments to our so-called brief, in order to earn ourselves a swift rebuke from the marketing world’s Brief Batman – Howard Ibach. Inventor of the Creative Brief Mastery program, Howard is on a mission to make marketing briefs more meaningful. An advocate for clear thinking, proper collaboration and the single minded-proposition, Howard has been helping marketers all over the world put their bad briefing habits to bed (and then press a pillow over their drooling faces). He’s also an instructor at the Association of National Advertisers’ Marketing Training and Development Centre, the author of the brilliant ‘How To Write An Inspired Brief’ and host of the ‘Brief Bros’ podcast – confirming his undisputed status as the industry’s beefiest brief brain. In this episode, Howard will pick the art of briefing down to its rickety bones, sharing his invaluable expertise on what the perfect brief should say, be and do. This episode is proudly dedicated to Tom Jordan. Follow Howard on LinkedIn.  /////   Timestamps 03:45 - Lessons from Stonemasonry 06:14 - Path to Writing and Advertising 08:36 - The Influence of Advertising on Howard 12:29 - The Importance of a Good Brief 16:12 - Issues with Copying Client Briefs 19:49 - The Disconnect Between Clients and Agencies 24:24 - Collaboration in Brief Writing 32:13 - Commonalities in Effective Briefs 46:02 - Banishment of Purpose Advertising Howards Book Recommendations are: Chew with Your Mind Open by Cameron Day Spittin' Chiclets by Cameron Day Stones & Sticks by Cameron Day  /////

This week we have been exclusively watching 'Magic Mike', shaking a Magic 8-Ball and listening to '24k Magic' by Bruno Mars (which is just awful) in order to win the slightly nervous attention of Adam Ferrier, founder of Thinkerbell; the thinkers, tinkers and practitioners of ‘measured magic’.  A psychology brain sat on top of some sturdy strategy bones, Adam is a rare voice of reason in the largely barmy brand world – as well as being the chief sceptic when it comes to the industry obsession with ‘the customer’. He’s also the author of more superb books, including ‘The Advertising effect: How to Change Behaviour’ and supplements all this talk-talking with some serious walk-walking through his work that brings marketing science and creative thinking together.  In this episode Adam shares his expertise on brands who forget how to be brands, why every business problem is a behaviour change problem and the forgotten benefits of simply fitting in. This episode is very proudly dedicated to Anne Young.    /////    Follow Adam on LinkedIn Timestamps 09:16 - The impact of D&AD annuals on Adam's career choice 11:19 - Transition from forensic psychology to marketing 16:12 - The perils of customer obsession 22:57 - Balancing brand and customer needs 25:11 - The importance of consumer research Adam’s Book Recommendations are: Stop Listening to Your Customers by Adam Ferrier: The Advertising Effect: How to Change Behaviour by Adam Ferrier:  Love's Executioner and Other Tales of Psychotherapy by Irvin Yalom:  Existential Psychotherapy by Irvin Yalom:  Here and Now: Tales from the Heart  by Irvin Yalom:  /////

This week we went around slurping muddy water from puddles in order to win the sympathy of Shane Stewart – brand man, running man and fizzy drink saviour. Chief brand brain at XOXO soda, Shane has built his career around launching and marketing drinks that do good stuff for your innards, while looking extremely cool on your outtards. Before shaking up the canned drink business with XOXO he helped create a large and loyal community of slurpers for Moju, a ginger and turmeric shot that’s a bit like unleashing a troop of helpfully energetic monkeys inside your tired old brain. And, as well as bringing better branded bubbly beverages to Britain and beyond, he’s even found the time to launch Step by Steppers, a marvellous running club designed to help people dealing with grief to feel less alone. This episode is very proudly dedicated to his Dad. ///// Follow Shane on LinkedIn and Instagram Step by Steppers Run Club Timestamps 03:14 - Shane's Early Career in Hospitality 05:08 - Cultural Significance of Pubs in the UK 07:29 - Importance of University Experience Over Degree Choice 08:50 - Shane's Interest in Brands and Marketing 10:57 - Shane's Time in Australia and Farm Work Experience 13:04 - Transition from Hospitality to Marketing 14:40 - Working at Northern Block Ice Cream 16:05 - Joining Moju and Creative Job Application 18:22 - Continuous Learning and Mini MBA 20:19 - Transition to XOXO Soda 23:37 - Challenges and Opportunities in the Functional Soda Market 25:21 - Product Range and Flavor Development at XOXO 29:27 - Psychological Aspects of Product Taste and Health Benefits 31:12 - Listener Questions: Startups vs. Big Brands 34:47 - Listener Questions: Convincing Retailers to Stock Products 39:42 - Introduction to Step by Stepper Run Club Shane's Book Recommendation is: The Chimp Paradox - Prof Steve Peters /////

This week we positioned our most powerful fan at the rear end of a corpulent bull in hopes of snaring the attention of legendary bullshit fighter, Alex Smith A strategist who’s set himself the mountainous task of extracting all the nonsense from business strategy, Alex is very much a breath of a fresh air in a field that can, at its worst, smell a lot like somebody’s done a poo… on a dead crab… in the drains of an abandoned laundrette… and then set it on fire. He is the author of a bestselling book on strategy, titled, with Alex’s typical disregard for fluff, No Bullshit Strategy. In those pages – and through Alex’s wildly popular LinkedIn posts – he makes a compelling case for businesses to look more closely at the decisions they make and wheedle out the ‘anti-strategic’ ones that are causing 99% of all pickles. So, in true Alex fashion, we probably could have just said something like ‘he helps businesses get stuff right, more of the time’ instead of all that nonsense about the crab and the laundrette. Ah well. This episode is dedicated to Alex’s wife who is the engine and foundation underneath everything.  ///// Follow Alex on LinkedIn. Timestamps: (03:26) - First Jobs and Failures (06:19) - Reflections on Being Fired (08:53) - Finding the Right Fit (10:46) - The Challenge of Entering Advertising (12:24) - Polishing the Pig: Agency Work (15:36) - The Importance of Unique Value (19:08) - Theory vs. Practice in Strategy (20:26) - Defining Business Strategy (22:03) - Value Generation in Business (24:16) - The Role of Communication (28:04) - The Hierarchy of Business Strategy (30:28) - The Role of Founders in Strategy (32:10) - Navigating Corporate Structures (36:15) - The Myth of the Legendary Founder (40:05) - Mediocrity vs. Strategy (42:58) - Learning from Established Brands (45:11) - Applying Strategy to Personal Business (47:30) - The Shift from Freelancer to Entrepreneur Alex's Book Recommendations are:  Zero to One by Peter Thiel Incerto Series by Nassim Taleb Elon Musk by Walter Isaacson  Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson  The Matter with Things by Ian McGilchrist /////

This week we released AI from the punishment cupboard in which we’ve been keeping it in order to win the approval of author, marketing super-brain and AI believer Paul Dervan. As the Head of Brand Marketing at Miro, Paul has been busy bolstering his reputation as one of the industry’s smartiest pant-wearers when it comes to marketing effectiveness. Miro is just the latest stop in a marketing career you could only possibly describe as both distinguished and glittering (glittinguished?) and has seen Paul tackle the marketing challenges on behalf of everyone from O2 to Telefonica to the National Lottery in Ireland (scooping, along the way, the title of Ireland’s Marketer of the Year in 2022.) He’s also the author of Run With The Foxes, a superb book about marketing, mistakes and making much better decisions. This episode is very proudly dedicated to Peter Field. Peter has had a huge influence on Paul’s career both as a mentor and advisor. ///// Follow Paul on LinkedIn. Timestamps: 03:45 - First Job and Proper Job 05:10 - Early Career in Marketing 07:34 - Career Path and Focus 09:30 - Paul's Sweet Spot in Marketing 11:00 - Writing the Book: Run with Foxes 13:27 - Learning from Mistakes 15:51 - Mistakes and AI in Marketing 18:08 - Decision-Making Process 20:40 - Classical vs. Modern Marketing 22:22 - AI's Impact on Marketing 25:06 - Practical Applications of AI 30:05 - Advanced Uses of AI 33:08 - Synthetic Research 34:28 - Skepticism vs. Cynicism 36:42 - Curiosity and Experimentation 39:27 - Admitting Mistakes 43:27 - Listener Questions: Embedding Chapter One  Paul's Book Recommendations are:  Ogilvy on Advertising – David Ogilvy The Anatomy of Humbug – Paul Feldwick Decoded: The Science Behind Why We Buy – Phil Barden /////

This week we shredded our vision board and fed it to some ornamental carp, purely to win the approval of author, critic and quite possibly the world first demotivational speaker, Patrick Freyne. Before becoming the enormously popular columnist and critic for the Irish Times, Patrick spent his 20s chasing the rock star dream. But while the life of big hair, hard drugs and tight trousers wasn’t to be, it did give Patrick the time and space required to be one of the creative world’s leading authors, thinkers and sense-talkers. His book ‘Ok, Let’s Do Your Stupid Idea’ is a glorious celebration of curiosity, experimentation and letting your heart lead the way. And now he’s on a mission to dismantle the cult of ‘Big P’ productivity and remind people that ‘maximising your potential’ is a poor substitute for living your life.  This episode is dedicated to Patrick’s wife Anna Carey, who has been his biggest influence. She also has an amazing funny romance fiction book coming out later this year called Our Song.  ///// Follow Patrick on X and Bluesky Timestamps:  01:32 - The Concept of Demotivational Speaking 07:36 - Patrick's Early Jobs and Musical Aspirations 09:08 - The Influence of Music on Patrick's Life 12:04 - The Importance of Curiosity in Career Paths 15:18 - Exploring the Idea of 'Stupid Ideas' 17:14 - The Impact of Burnout and Productivity Culture 20:40 - Finding Peace in Accepting Average Productivity 22:37 - Cultural Expectations and Work-Life Balance 25:31 - The Role of Technology in Productivity Anxiety 30:17 - The Dangers of Measurable Metrics 32:03 - Writing Techniques and Approaches 36:30 - The Importance of Rhythm in Writing 39:01 - Listener Questions: Generational Perspectives on Productivity 42:57 - Antidotes to Hustle Culture and Finding Balance 45:27 - Final Thoughts on Productivity and Well-Being Patrick's Book Recommendations are:  The Fourth Time We Drowned – Sally Hayden  Commonwealth – Anne Patchett A Visit from Lagoon Squad – Jennifer Egan /////