Daniel Thong: Bootstrapping AI, Spinning Out AI, and Surviving the VC Downturn – E606

Shiyan Koh, Managing Partner at Hustle Fund, joins Jeremy Au to explore Singapore’s exploration of nuclear energy, the Southeast Asia startup downturn, and how AI is changing both business and social behavior. They discuss how the government seeds long-term energy strategy, what optimism looks like in a bear market, and why human interaction must remain a priority as digital tools evolve. Together, they reflect on resilience, founder mindset, and parenting in an increasingly AI-driven world. 02:15 Singapore is quietly exploring nuclear power as an energy source: In 2024, Singapore signed a civil nuclear cooperation "123 Agreement" with America and launched the Singapore Nuclear Research and Safety Initiative (targeted ~100 researcher lab) at the National University of Singapore (NUS). 03:46 Hitting carbon net zero may require nuclear energy: International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) director-general Rafael Grossi: “When it comes to decarbonising, what are your options? Here, there is no hydropower. You have renewables, but you don’t have much territory... It’s a small country, so you cannot have wind parks for kilometres on end... In my opinion... Singapore could rightly (be) the most perfect example of a country that needs nuclear energy." 06:28 Nuclear acceptance may follow the NEWater playbook: They compare it to the early skepticism around NEWater, which underwent societal education, trial balloons, and gradual integration. Hurdles include nuclear safety, exploration of small modular reactor designs and concerns/ collaborations with neighboring countries. 13:59 Southeast Asia’s startup mood has soured post-boom: After years of hype and capital, many founders now face disillusionment. Shiyan calls it a hangover from the zero-interest era but also notes new AI-driven opportunities are emerging. 15:36 Founders can now build global-first with AI: Southeast Asia’s fragmented markets make regional scaling hard. Shiyan explains that founders can now launch globally from day one using AI tools, bypassing local limitations. 19:32 AI changes what’s possible, but customers, not VCs, decide: Even with better tools, Shiyan reminds founders that most startups still fail. What matters is whether customers are willing to pay, not just whether investors believe. 23:00 Real connection still beats AI companionship: They explore whether AI waifus can help people practice social skills or just create more isolation. Shiyan argues nothing replaces shared quirks, jokes, and emotional presence in real life. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/shiyan-koh-singapore-nuclear-energy Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts

Jeremy Au breaks down why most startups fail and what it really takes to succeed in the AI age. He explains the six patterns of startup failure, the tricky economics of service businesses, and why AI will wipe out average workers. He also explores how caring about a problem gives founders their edge and why listening, not output, is the real marker of a great marketer or executive. 00:59 Startup Failure Is the Default: Jeremy explains that failure is the norm in startups and outlines six common patterns including false starts, speed traps, bad luck, and weak founding teams. 03:30 Service Startups Need Tech to Scale: He shares how AI and automation can transform service businesses like call centers into high-margin ventures by replacing labor with scalable technology. 07:00 GPT Raised the Bar: Repeating what AI can do is not enough. The gap between average and exceptional performance has narrowed and effort alone is no longer a differentiator. 09:39 Founder Problem Fit Drives Impact: Success is easier when people work on problems they care about. Founder problem fit is just as important as product market fit. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/startup-failure-ai-takeover Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts

Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code BRAVESEA for an extra 4 months at www.surfshark.com/BRAVESEA Daniel Thong, founder of Nimbus, returns to BRAVE to share how he built a profitable, tech-enabled service business without venture capital. He and Jeremy Au unpack the rise and fall of tech companies like Zilingo, examine the structural issues behind finance misconduct, and explore how AI is reshaping service operations. Daniel discusses why bootstrapping gave him more control, how he spun off a new AI startup from within, and what it takes to retain talent and stay healthy as a founder. The conversation offers a grounded look at sustainable growth, founder philosophy, and the realities of Southeast Asia’s startup landscape. 06:25 Bootstrapping helped Nimbus outlast VC-backed clients: Daniel avoided risky burn rates and pointed to Zilingo as a cautionary tale. 11:45 AI-enabled WhatsApp sales sparked a spinout: After AI sold painting services over the weekend, Daniel launched ChatAvocado with his tech team as co-founders. 13:50 Spinning off helped retain talent: Rather than cutting R&D, Daniel gave capital and ownership to the team and kept the business ecosystem strong. 16:27 AI now improves routing, HR, and customer service: Generative AI reduces headcount by handling job matching and admin tasks internally. 19:35 Survival beats ambition in Southeast Asia: Daniel emphasized Buffett’s rule to never lose money and stay close to revenue. 26:50 Retention comes from delivering promises: Daniel saw founders renege on ESOPs and vowed to be consistent, realistic, and trustworthy with his team. 35:37 Founding cost him family presence and health: Daniel admits he neglected the intangibles and is now trying to balance better. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/daniel-thong-bootstrap-beats-vc-collapse Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts

Jeremy Au explores how exponential tech progress is reshaping the future, why Southeast Asia is positioned for a surge in unicorns, and how venture capitalists evaluate founders. From AI relationships to realistic startup odds, this discussion challenges assumptions about the next 100 years of innovation and entrepreneurship. 01:15 100 Years of Progress: Jeremy compares sampans to reusable rockets to illustrate the speed of change in the last century. He asks if anyone in 1924 could have predicted the internet and cat GIFs in 2024. The message is clear, by 2124, what feels absurd today may become normal. 02:26 AI Companions as Real Startups: Jeremy shares that the latest wave of venture-backed startups in California are focused on building AI-powered romantic partners. What started as a joke has become a funded reality, forcing us to consider how digital relationships could redefine human connection. 04:01 Unicorn Odds and Reality: Many students are surprised to learn that seed-stage startups have a 1 in 40 chance of becoming unicorns. Jeremy emphasizes that while the journey requires effort and resilience, the odds are better than most assume and worth pursuing with intent. 04:34 Southeast Asia’s Golden Era: Asia Partners believes the next 50 years will bring more unicorns in Southeast Asia. Jeremy highlights that local universities like NUS are producing many of these founders, signaling strong homegrown potential in the region. 10:00 VCs as Elite Talent Scouts: Jeremy explains that venture capitalists are not teachers or advisors, but high-performance coaches who are assembling winning teams. They focus on backing the best early, not out of charity, but to generate home runs that deliver massive returns. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/billion-dollar-futures Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts

Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code BRAVESEA for an extra 4 months at www.surfshark.com/BRAVESEA Bernard Leong, founder of Dorje AI and host of Analyse Asia, joins Jeremy Au to explore how AI is transforming software development, business models, and professional roles across Southeast Asia. They break down why dev houses are losing ground, how AI accelerates coding and reshapes team structures, and why traditional SaaS and education models must evolve. Bernard shares how he replaced an outsourced dev team using AI tools, the dangers of hallucinated code libraries, and his vision for a new enterprise software model powered by prompt engineering and cloud-based trust. 00:42: Traditional software development can’t keep up with AI timelines: Bernard shares how he replaced a dev house that took five months with a feature he built in 20 minutes using 50 AI prompts during a flight. This led to firing the team and redesigning the internal workflow around speed and AI tools. 06:26: Frontend moves fast with AI, but backend demands real engineering: While vibe coding speeds up prototypes, Bernard highlights backend risks like hallucinated libraries from ChatGPT. He stresses the need for strong DevOps rules, audit trails, and secure infrastructure to prevent system vulnerabilities. 09:18: Dev houses need to reskill or become obsolete: Bernard criticizes dev houses for slow JIRA-based processes and poor QA. His lean team rebuilt what took five months in just six weeks by focusing on code quality, automation, and prompt engineering. He urges retraining junior developers to stay relevant. 20:43: AI is replacing repetitive junior roles across professions: Bernard sees AI displacing junior coders, lawyers, accountants, and consultants. He shares how his ex-lawyer wife saw this coming, and cites an MIT study where only senior professionals could spot and fix AI mistakes, while juniors added little value. 23:39: Education must shift from banning AI to measuring real thinking: Bernard describes showing students how ChatGPT completes their essays in seconds. He calls for testing reasoning and prompting skills rather than memorization. 31:57: Organizations will become lean, AI-native teams: Bernard predicts companies will move from pyramids to diamond-shaped org charts. He now trials contractors and only hires those who scale with AI. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/bernard-leong-code-without-coders Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts

Secure your privacy with Surfshark! Enter coupon code BRAVESEA for an extra 4 months at www.surfshark.com/BRAVESEA Saurabh Chauhan, Co-founder and CEO of Peakflo, returns to BRAVE with Jeremy Au to reflect on their journey since first meeting at Entrepreneur First in 2020. They unpack how Saurabh identified pain points in finance ops during his time with Rocket Internet, how he structured his co-founder search, and how early customer interviews shaped Peakflo’s product roadmap. They explore why he rejected the social commerce hype, how Y Combinator reset his scale ambitions, and how Google’s AI Accelerator helped move Peakflo from traditional SaaS to agentic workflows. They also discuss startup fraud detection and how external stakeholders can cut through opacity. 02:40: Why Saurabh joined EF: He had identified cash flow and supplier payment issues in past startups and wanted to solve this. EF was attractive for its high technical founder density, which led to matching with Dmitry, a PhD in AI and former CDO at AirAsia. 10:02: Rejected social commerce despite hype: Saurabh entered EF with two ideas—cutting customer acquisition costs and finance automation. Interviews with 30 to 40 operators in social commerce showed no real CAC compression and surfaced product quality and platform leakage issues. 23:47: Peakflo started with accounts receivable automation: They built modules like collections, dispute management, customer portals, and payment reconciliation. It took over a year to fully build the AR stack from late 2020 to 2022. 25:40: Accounts payable followed based on demand: Customers didn’t want to use two systems. Peakflo added AP features like invoice capture, PO matching, and supplier payments, which took another year and launched by late 2023. 28:30: Google AI Accelerator pushed the move toward agentic workflows: Peakflo now builds AI agents to perform human tasks like logging into client portals, submitting invoices, and reconciling ERP systems. 30:26: Voice AI agents now handle collection calls: The agent knows invoice details, dispute history, and broken promises to pay. It engages clients like a collection officer, takes notes, and feeds updates into follow-up workflows. 36:32: Agentic workflows are the future of finance ops: Saurabh sees Peakflo evolving into a workflow engine powered by AI agents across back-office functions like lead qualification, collections, and month-end closing. Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts

Jeremy Au breaks down the hidden math behind venture capital: why only a few startups matter, how VCs double down or walk away, and what real exits look like. Using the case of Instacart and Southeast Asia IPOs like SEA, Grab, and GoTo, he explains what separates paper value from cash returns, and why timing is everything. 01:07 VC Fund Economics and Decision Making: Covers how venture capitalists allocate time and support across their portfolio. Highlights the paradox where top performers need little help, while struggling startups consume the most resources. 04:04 Instacart IPO Case Study: Breaks down how early and late investors in Instacart performed. Shows how investment timing, conviction, and follow-on decisions shape actual returns. 08:34 Instagram vs. Snapchat: Acquisition Decisions: Compares two founders who faced billion-dollar buyout offers. One sold early and built long-term value inside a larger company. The other kept control but faced a bumpier ride. 11:20 VC Fund Performance and Metrics: Explains how to interpret MOIC and DPI. Focuses on the gap in Southeast Asia where paper returns look strong but real liquidity is still limited. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/paper-vs-profit Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts

Kelvin Subowo, CEO of Daily Co., joins Jeremy Au to share how he built one of Indonesia’s fastest growing F&B groups after seven failed ventures. They talk through how Kelvin’s early failures taught him the realities of Indonesia’s price sensitive market, how cloud kitchens initially succeeded but quickly collapsed post-Covid, and how Daily Co. pivoted by acquiring and scaling offline food brands. They explore how founder retention, backend integration, and M&A discipline enabled sustainable growth. Kelvin also explains how Chinese brands are entering Indonesia with capital and speed, and why his team is doubling down on scale, team culture, and long-term local partnerships. 05:22 He failed seven times: His early startups included a potato chip brand, a HappyFresh-style grocery delivery, a classified forum, and an Instagram-era Etsy clone, all of which failed due to underfunding, misaligned business models, and reliance on customer subsidies 11:39 The cloud kitchen model collapsed post pandemic: Customer subsidies ended, delivery and platform fees remained high, and fuel prices surged, making unit economics unsustainable and causing Daily Co. to shut down over 200 outlets by mid-2022 16:09 Kelvin acquired Bread Life and shifted to central production: The team repurposed its delivery network to support offline brands, bought the mall-based bakery chain, centralized baking to lower costs, and reopened with a profitable retail model 21:58 Daily Co. now acquires profitable founder led brands: It targets three to five times EBITDA valuations, only acquires IP and assets to avoid legacy liabilities, retains founders to run operations, and integrates backend services like HR, finance, and supply chain 29:47 Kelvin believes team loyalty helped Daily Co. survive downturns: Many team members have been with him since 2011, and instead of layoffs, they pivoted together to scale new categories like bakery, aiming to build an ecosystem focused on staple food and "share of belly" consumption across meals and snacks Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/kelvin-subowo-scaling-after-shutdown Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts

Adriel Yong, Orvel Venture Partner, joins Jeremy Au to reflect on five years of career transitions from investing to building startups across Southeast Asia and the US. They unpack how American venture capital has turned inward, the unintended consequences of remote work, and why AI is upending both work and relationships. Through candid stories from fundraising dinners in San Francisco to AI-generated breakup scripts they explore how technology is transforming how we build companies, make decisions, and stay human. 03:12 American and Asian startup growth models differ: In San Francisco, startups often grow fast by selling to other startups and riding internal network effects, while Southeast Asian startups focus on capturing value chains and relationship-based sales. 06:05 Revenue in SF isn’t always real: Founders in SF can reach $10 million ARR by selling to friendly peers, but in LA or Southeast Asia, sales are slower and relationship-driven, especially in industries like entertainment. 08:53 US venture capital is becoming protectionist: Where American VCs once backed global founders, they now prioritize companies based in or from the US, making it harder for Southeast Asian startups to access funding. 11:49 AI is replacing VC advisory work: Founders now use large language models to flag red flags in term sheets before reaching out to VCs, shifting the VC’s role from explainer to final verifier and negotiation coach. 14:59 AI is eroding help-based relationships: As people ask ChatGPT instead of friends for advice, the everyday opportunities for give-and-take shrink, which could weaken social bonds especially in task-focused societies like Singapore. 18:13 Generative AI amplifies Western perspectives: Tools like ChatGPT default to American individualist values unless prompted otherwise, meaning users across Asia may unconsciously adopt Americanized ways of thinking and problem-solving. 20:53 Graduate employment in Singapore is dropping: Unemployment dipped below 80 percent as MNCs cut back due to trade wars and AI displaces entry-level roles. Many graduates prefer brand-name firms, leaving SME jobs overlooked despite being the bulk of local employment. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/trained-by-ai Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts

Jeremy Au breaks down the evolving power dynamics between VCs and founders in Southeast Asia, diving into board control, investor rights, and why most startups fail despite support. He shares practical lessons from both sides of the table, highlights the return of convertible debt, and explains how founders should think about conflict, dilution, and boardroom politics. 00:54 Key Investor Rights and Control: Jeremy outlines the top 10 investor rights such as drag-along, tag-along, and anti-dilution. These clauses define how power and decision-making are structured in startup financing. 03:47 Conflicts of Interest in Startups: He explains how interests between founders, board members, and shareholders evolve over time. Alignment becomes harder as companies grow and stakes increase. 08:26 Convertible Debt and Financing Trends: Jeremy describes why convertible debt is gaining traction again. In uncertain markets, it offers downside protection and upside potential for investors. 10:22 Board Dynamics and Founder Control: Founders in Southeast Asia often lose control by Series A. Jeremy explains how board decisions work, how founders can push back, and what happens when alignment breaks. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/founder-vc-powerplay Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts