Bonus – Inside Mentalization-Based Treatment: Borderline & Narcissistic Personality Disorders (308)

When life changes overnight, how do we find our way forward? After losing Thomas’s mother to pancreatic cancer and navigating Thomas’s aggressive leukemia diagnosis, bone marrow transplant, relapse, and ongoing recovery, Lindsay and Thomas join Dr. Ann Kelley to share their deeply personal journey through cancer, caregiving, grief, and resilience. Together, they explore the emotional realities of serious illness, the often-overlooked grief experienced by caregivers, and how vulnerability, honest communication, and mutual support can strengthen relationships during life’s most uncertain moments. “If I’m going to go through this, I want to grow through this.” – Thomas Kealey Time Stamps for The Other Side of Caregiving: Grief, Vulnerability & Finding Joy with Lindsey & Thomas Kealey (315) 03:59 Transition from caregiver to patient 09:52 Keys to acceptance and trust in medical care 24:51 Supporting each other through grief and fear 34:59 Practical tools for caregivers and patients 45:11 Talking about fear and end-of-life conversations 55:10 Creating normalcy and connection in the hospital 59:51 Living with uncertainty and foreboding joy About our Guests – Lindsey & Thomas Kealey  Thomas is a dedicated Preoperative & Post Anesthesia charge nurse in Bend, Oregon. As a co-host of the Brain it On! Podcast, he shares insights from his personal journey with Multiple Phenotype Acute Leukemia (MPAL) and a bone marrow transplant. His mission is strengthened by the mutual support he shared with his mother, who had pancreatic cancer, to inspire and help others facing medical challenges. Lindsey is an instructor of Human Development and Family Sciences at Oregon State University and the author of PAWsitive Choices Social and Emotional Learning. Her experience teaching in elementary schools and higher education led her to create a curriculum that integrates neuroscience and problem-solving to foster children’s resilience. As a co-host of the Brain it On! Podcast, she shares key learnings from her journey through her husband’s cancer treatment to help others navigate adversity. Resources for The Other Side of Caregiving: Grief, Vulnerability & Finding Joy with Lindsey & Thomas Kealey (315) Brain It On! – Thomas and Lindsey’s podcast The Comfort & Healing Companion: A Patient and Caregiver Toolkit for Treatment, Recovery, and Beyond – Thomas &Lindsey’s book, get your copy! Instagram – Following the Brain It On podcast’s profile YouTube – Check out their Youtube channel Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Therapy can be costly, but part of the mission of Talkspace is to provide quality care that is accessible and affordable—whether or not you are insured. As a listener of this podcast, you’ll get $80 off of your first month with Talkspace when you go to Talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. Talkiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medication management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, and more. Head to Talkiatry.com/TU to complete the short assessment and get matched with an in‑network psychiatrist in just a few minutes.   Many new events coming up at TU – Check out our events page to see our highlights and happenings!  Just a few of our fun opportunities!   Beyond Attachment Styles – Deepening Security in Yourself and Fostering More Secure Relationships Course available NOW – New LIVE Q&A Coming December 2026! Everyone’s heard of attachment styles – but you likely don’t know how much the popular press gets wrong and what the science actually says about how to improve your relationships long term (including how we relate to ourselves).  This course is for anyone wanting to more deeply understand attachment (styles vs patterns), unconscious defense activation patterns, implicit scripts… and most importantly, what to do once you do get activated!  Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout. Ready to dive deeper into Secure Relating? Grab the book or explore the course, and use code BAS15 for a limited-time listener discount. Or read Marriott & Kelley’s critically-acclaimed book, Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World (HarperCollins,2023) for the most in-depth experience of learning about Secure Relating. Therapists love it, but it’s accessible to everyone.  If you aren’t interested in the background science, just start at Part 2 and we will be talking directly to you – it’s fun! Attention self-proclaimed Neuronerds!🚨 If you refer others to the pod, use it in your professional life or just love this stuff – you’re in the right place! Your fellow Neuronerds are waiting – Join our exclusive community to get exclusive bonus content, early access to training opportunities, and an ad-free, private podcast feed. It’s this warm community that allows us to donate half of all corporate profits to mental health access for marginalized peoples. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! 

Patreon/Supercast Special Release – Bonus – Curiosity Over Certainty: The Secret to More Secure Relationships with Ann & Sue (314) This is a sneak peek of our newest episode – available only on our Premium Supercast and Patreon platforms. For as little as $5/month you can have access to special releases like this one, first-to-know about upcoming events and discounts and an ad-free feed. Click here to join & finish the episode!! Are you curious—or just looking for reassurance? Sue and Ann are back to explore why genuine curiosity is harder than it sounds—and why our need for certainty can quietly interfere with connection. Through relatable examples, attachment science, and a little self-reflection, Ann and Sue highlight the difference between seeking answers and cultivating true curiosity. They explore how our assumptions about ourselves and others shape our relationships, why uncertainty can feel threatening, and how learning to sit with discomfort can open the door to deeper understanding. From challenging the stories we tell ourselves to recognizing our own emotional reactions, discover practical ways to move beyond defensiveness, strengthen self-awareness, and build more secure, connected relationships—starting with yourself. “You need to point your curiosity inward first.” – Sue Marriott, LCSW CGP Time Stamps for Bonus – Curiosity Over Certainty: The Secret to More Secure Relationships with Ann & Sue (314) 01:05 Exploring curiosity as a tool for connection 09:35 Understanding our stories and assumptions 14:47 The importance of self-reflection in curiosity 25:12 Challenging certainty 31:59 The role of attachment in curiosity 39:47 Practical steps to cultivate curiosity Looking for our Upcoming Events? Click here!! – Ann & Sue have LIVE training sessions in November and December in partnership with the Trauma Therapist Institute… you won’t want to miss them! Our Beyond Attachment Styles course is available NOW! Learn how your nervous system, your mind, and your relationships work together in a fascinating dance, shaping who you are and how you connect with others. Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s – Next Q&A Coming December 11th 2026!   …and the course pairs wonderfully with our book – Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World – get your copy HERE! “Comprehensive, courageous, creative and clear, Sue Marriott and Ann Kelley expertly and compassionately guide us through a deep understanding of attachment and how to rewire our nervous systems toward more secure and fulfilling relationships. This is a cutting-edge essential read for those at any stage of the self-discovery journey who seek to make meaningful changes in their lives.  A wonderful contribution to our collective conversation about how to make our shared world a better place for us all.” – Daniel Siegel, M.D.

Testimony is more than telling your story—it’s reclaiming the power to heal Psychologist, scholar, and activist Dr. Makungu Akinyela explores Testimony Therapy, an African-centered approach that emphasizes storytelling, cultural identity, ancestral wisdom, and community connection. Alongside co-host Sue Marriott, they examine how colonialism and systemic oppression shape mental health, the power of oral traditions in healing, and why meaningful change requires moving beyond individual treatment toward collective healing and liberation. “The story is not just one person’s story. It’s a shared story.” – Dr. Makungu Akinyela Time Stamps for Beyond Western Psychology: Decolonizing Mental Health Through Testimony Therapy with Dr. Makungu Akinyela (313) 01:09 Dr. Akinyela’s background and activism 02:22 The influence of Western psychology and decolonial thought 03:56 Fanon, Du Bois, and the roots of testimony therapy 10:32 Testimony therapy and the question of cultural narratives 13:40 Double consciousness and the experience of Blackness 17:58 Colorism, internalized racism, and social trauma 21:28 Fanon’s zone of non-being and political realities 28:10 African-centered worldview and community healing 34:04 Orality, storytelling, and the power of testimony 42:53 Signification, rhythm, and body in oral traditions 48:41 Cultural practices and healing modalities 58:13 Decentering the therapist and collaborative healing 01:02:03 Global resistance and decolonial mental health movements About our Guest – Dr. Makungu M. Akinyela  Dr. Makungu M. Akinyela (Mah-koon-goo Ah-keen-yay-Lah) is a leading authority on cultural democracy, narrative practice, anti-racist resistance, and mental health. He is a licensed psychotherapist practicing in Atlanta, Georgia, and an Associate Professor of Africana Studies at Georgia State University. He is the creator of the African-centered approach to narrative practice called testimony therapy and the author of the book Testimony Therapy: Decolonizing Mental Health for Black Therapists and Clients, published by W.W. Norton. He is also the author of the book Culture, Politics, Spirituality and Practice: A book of resistance and critical theory for disturbing times, published by Dulwich Publications. As a scholar activist and a therapist. Dr. Akinyela is a lifelong committed social justice organizer with a focus on struggles for human rights and justice for Black people in the United States and the African diaspora. His research and writing include such subjects as cultural democracy and mental health care; cultural domination and therapeutic resistance; reparations and the role of mental health workers in repairing oppressive wounds; and African-centered family therapy. He is a Clinical Fellow and an Approved Supervisor of the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy (AAMFT). Resources for Beyond Western Psychology: Decolonizing Mental Health Through Testimony Therapy with Dr. Makungu Akinyela (313) Testimony Therapy: Decolonizing Mental Health for Black Therapists and Clients – Get your copy of Dr. Akinyela’s book Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  Therapy can be costly, but part of the mission of Talkspace is to provide quality care that is accessible and affordable—whether or not you are insured. As a listener of this podcast, you’ll get $80 off of your first month with Talkspace when you go to Talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80. Beyond Attachment Styles – Deepening Security in Yourself and Fostering More Secure Relationships Course available NOW – New LIVE Q&A Coming December 2026! Everyone’s heard of attachment styles – but you likely don’t know how much the popular press gets wrong and what the science actually says about how to improve your relationships long term (including how we relate to ourselves).  This course is for anyone wanting to more deeply understand attachment (styles vs patterns), unconscious defense activation patterns, implicit scripts… and most importantly, what to do once you do get activated!  Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout. Ready to dive deeper into Secure Relating? Grab the book or explore the course, and use code BAS15 for a limited-time listener discount. Or read Marriott & Kelley’s critically-acclaimed book, Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World (HarperCollins,2023) for the most in-depth experience of learning about Secure Relating. Therapists love it, but it’s accessible to everyone.  If you aren’t interested in the background science, just start at Part 2 and we will be talking directly to you – it’s fun! Attention self-proclaimed Neuronerds!🚨 If you refer others to the pod, use it in your professional life or just love this stuff – you’re in the right place! Your fellow Neuronerds are waiting – Join our exclusive community to get exclusive bonus content, early access to training opportunities, and an ad-free, private podcast feed. It’s this warm community that allows us to donate half of all corporate profits to mental health access for marginalized peoples. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! 

What does self-worth really look like when we stop trying to be perfectly secure? Dr. Ann Kelley talks with psychologist and bestselling author Dr. Marisa G. Franco about her new book, Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment. Dr. Franco challenges the idea that healing means becoming perfectly “secure,” arguing instead for becoming “secure-ish”—learning to acknowledge insecurity, shame, vulnerability, and other difficult emotions without judging or rejecting those parts of ourselves. She explores the difference between self-esteem and true self-worth, why some people struggle to receive love or positive feedback, and how our deeply held stories about ourselves can shape the relationships and experiences we seek out. The conversation also navigates into the science of memory and memory reconsolidation, including how past experiences can continue to influence our emotions and reactions even when we don’t consciously remember them. “Being a steward of self-worth for self and for others is about allowing people to make mistakes and be imperfect.” – Dr. Marisa G. Franco Time Stamps for Secure-ish: Rethinking Self-Worth & Attachment with Dr. Marisa G. Franco (312) 01:57 Why friendship matters more than we think 04:01 The problem with attachment styles as status symbols 08:00 Memory as the database of self-perception 13:58 The role of implicit and explicit memory 25:59 The role of body sensations in healing 31:59 Overcoming self-criticism and building resilience 36:07 The Science of Memory and Emotional Triggers 40:02 Addressing detachment and dissociation 47:57 Practical tools for lasting change 49:55 The Future of Self-Worth and Emotional Freedom About our Guest – Dr. Marisa G. Franco An enlightening psychologist, international speaker, and New York Times bestselling author, Dr. Marisa G Franco is known for digesting and communicating science in ways that resonate deeply enough with people to change their lives. She works as a professor at The University of Maryland and authored the New York Times bestseller Platonic: How The Science of Attachment Can Help You Make—and Keep—Friends and Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment. She writes about friendship for Psychology Today and has been a featured connection expert for major publications like The New York Times, The Telegraph, and Vice. She speaks on belonging and self-worth at corporations, government agencies, non-profits, and universities. For tips on friendship, you can follow her on Instagram (DrMarisaGFranco), or go to her website, www.DrMarisaGFranco.com, where you can take a quiz to assess your strengths and weaknesses as a friend & reach out for speaking engagements. Dr. Marisa G. Franco professor, speaker, and author of Platonic and the forthcoming Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment.   Resources for Secure-ish: Rethinking Self-Worth & Attachment with Dr. Marisa G. Franco (312) Worth: The New Science of Self-Esteem and Secure Attachment – Marisa’s book, get your copy! Dr. Franco’s LinkedIn – Profile @DrMarisaGFranco – Instagram profile Newsletter – Subscribe to receives yours Website – Information, speaking engagements and more Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  SimplePractice is an all-in-one EHR that is HIPPA compliant, HITRUST certified and built specifically for therapists. If you are ready to simplify the business side of your practice, now is a great time to try SimplePractice. Start with a 7-day free trial, then get 50% off your first three months. Just go to SimplePractice.com to claim the offer. Beyond Attachment Styles – Deepening Security in Yourself and Fostering More Secure Relationships Course available NOW! Everyone’s heard of attachment styles – but you likely don’t know how much the popular press gets wrong and what the science actually says about how to improve your relationships long term (including how we relate to ourselves).  This course is for anyone wanting to more deeply understand attachment (styles vs patterns), unconscious defense activation patterns, implicit scripts… and most importantly, what to do once you do get activated!  Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout. Ready to dive deeper into Secure Relating? Grab the book or explore the course, and use code BAS15 for a limited-time listener discount. Or read Marriott & Kelley’s critically-acclaimed book, Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World (HarperCollins,2023) for the most in-depth experience of learning about Secure Relating. Therapists love it, but it’s accessible to everyone.  If you aren’t interested in the background science, just start at Part 2 and we will be talking directly to you – it’s fun! Attention self-proclaimed Neuronerds!🚨 If you refer others to the pod, use it in your professional life or just love this stuff – you’re in the right place! Your fellow Neuronerds are waiting – Join our exclusive community to get exclusive bonus content, early access to training opportunities, and an ad-free, private podcast feed. It’s this warm community that allows us to donate half of all corporate profits to mental health access for marginalized peoples. Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! 

Explore expanded states of consciousness with Patty Nagle's insights on breathwork and psychedelics for personal transformation.

Learn how attachment healing can improve your relationships and foster deeper connections within your community and beyond.

Discover how DBT can cultivate joy and self-acceptance, addressing the effects of chronic invalidation on queer identities.

Delve into Mentalization-Based Treatment to support those with Borderline Narcissistic traits and strengthen emotional intelligence.

Borderline and narcissism are often misunderstood—this episode separates myth from science. Robert Drozek explores the science behind borderline and narcissistic personality disorders, separating common myths from current research. Together, he and Sue discuss attachment, trauma, genetics, parenting, evidence-based treatments, and why understanding these often misunderstood conditions can bring greater compassion, hope, and healthier relationships. “Borderline is driven by a need to reconnect.” – Robert P. Drozek, LICSW Time Stamps for Challenging Personalities: Understanding Borderline & Narcissism with Robert Drozek (307) 04:14 Understanding Borderline Personality Disorder 09:25 Exploring narcissism: Definitions and types 13:29 Vulnerable vs. grandiose narcissism 18:56 The Role of Trauma in Personality Disorders 22:25 Parenting styles and their impact on narcissism 27:14 Identifying narcissism in relationships 33:34 Treatment approaches for Borderline Personality Disorder 36:45 Challenges in treating Narcissistic Personality Disorder 45:26 Navigating relationships with narcissistic individuals About our Guest – Robert P. Drozek, LICSW Robert P. Drozek, LICSW is the clinical director of the Mentalization-Based Treatment Clinic at McLean Hospital in Belmont, Massachusetts. He is a teaching associate in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, specializing in the treatment of borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, and post-traumatic stress disorder. He is author of the new book, Mentalization: Utilizing reflection to heal from borderline personality disorder—the first book for the general public about mentalization-based treatment.   Resources for Challenging Personalities: Understanding Borderline & Narcissism with Robert Drozek (307) Download page – Free worksheets and handouts from the book Mentalization Coach App – The first mobile app for mentalization and MBT, adapted from my new book Mentalization-based Treatment for Pathological Narcissism – Handbook Mentalization-based Treatment for Personality Disorders–  A practical guide Cambridge Guide to Mentalization-based Treatment Anna Freud Centre – The worldwide training hub for mentalization-based treatment (MBT) NPD Basic – A free guide to narcissistic personality disorder MBT Boston – An organization that Robert co-founded that offers training and supervision to clinicians across the world in MBT MBT USA – A consortium of MBT providers and organizations in the United Robert’s faculty page at McLean Hospital Instagram: @RobertDrozek Mentalization book – Facebook page Get your copy of Mentalization: Utilizing Reflection to Heal from Borderline Personality Disorder here! Please support our sponsors – they keep our podcast free and accessible to all!  SimplePractice is an all-in-one EHR that is HIPPA compliant, HITRUST certified and built specifically for therapists. If you are ready to simplify the business side of your practice, now is a great time to try SimplePractice. Start with a 7-day free trial, then get 50% off your first three months. Just go to SimplePractice.com to claim the offer. Beyond Attachment Styles – Deepening Security in Yourself and Fostering More Secure Relationships Course available NOW!   Everyone’s heard of attachment styles – but you likely don’t know how much the popular press gets wrong and what the science actually says about how to improve your relationships long term (including how we relate to ourselves).  This course is for anyone wanting to more deeply understand attachment (styles vs patterns), unconscious defense activation patterns, implicit scripts… and most importantly, what to do once you do get activated!  Online, Self-Paced, Asynchronous Learning with Quarterly Live Q&A’s! Earn 6 Continuing Education Credits – Available at Checkout. As a listener of this podcast, use code BAS15 for a limited-time discount. Or read Marriott & Kelley’s critically-acclaimed book, Secure Relating: Holding Your Own in an Insecure World (HarperCollins,2023) for the most in-depth experience of learning about Secure Relating. Therapists love it, but it’s accessible to everyone.  If you aren’t interested in the background science, just start at Part 2 and we will be talking directly to you – it’s fun!   You are invited!  OK for those of you who refer others to the pod, use it professionally or consider yourself nerdy and just love this stuff, hello, you are our people! Join our exclusive community to get exclusive bonus content, early access to training opportunities, and an ad-free, private podcast feed. It’s this warm community that allows us to donate half of all corportate profits to mental health access for marginalized peoples.  Sign up for our premium Neuronerd plan!! Click here!! 

What is responsible externalization? Learn how therapists can address systematic trauma and create space for grief and imagination in their practices. This episode brought to you by Simple Practice and www.therapistuncensored.com/join.