Episode 82: Is Attribution Solving the Wrong Problem? Adelaide CEO Marc Guldimann on Media Quality

Alan Chapell sits down with James Rosewell of Movement for an Open Web (MOW) to discuss Apple's Safari tracking restrictions, AI content monetization, and the future of digital advertising privacy. They explore the viability of MOW’s Model Terms for Marketing (MTM), and the Search-Only Contract as tools to empower the open web. The Chapell Regulatory Insider can be found at: https://chapellreport.substack.com/ Movement for an Open Web can be found at: https://movementforanopenweb.com/ Takeaways - Fighting Big Tech's Control: Movement for an Open Web challenges Google and Apple's influence over digital advertising, browser policies, and competition. - Protecting Publisher Revenue: Search-only contracts could help publishers charge AI companies for commercial use of their content. - Rethinking Data Privacy: Model Terms for Marketing (MTM) proposes a contractual approach to de-identified advertising data, although its legal viability remains uncertain, particularly in the US. - The Impact of Global Privacy Control: Expanding GPC requirements could significantly affect how ad tech companies collect, process, and use advertising data. - Publisher-Controlled Tracking: IAB Trusted Server offers a potential way for publishers to manage data flows despite Safari's tracking restrictions. - Turning Advocacy Into Action: Ad tech companies are encouraged to engage directly with regulators and policymakers rather than relying solely on industry commentary. Chapters 00:00 Marketecture Live 2027 Announcement 01:10 Introduction to The Monopoly Report 04:29 Meet James Rosewell of Movement for an Open Web 05:15 MOW's Mission and the Fight for an Open Web 08:01 How MOW Makes Decisions and Challenges Big Tech 09:51 Google's Privacy Sandbox and Third-Party Cookies 12:38 The W3C, Web Standards, and Competition Concerns 17:52 AI Content Monetization and Publisher Rights 20:34 Protecting Publishers From AI Crawlers 23:12 Search-Only Contracts and Publisher Compensation 26:18 Model Terms for Marketing (MTM) Explained 30:02 European vs. US Data Privacy Regulations 35:46 Global Privacy Control and Its Impact on Ad Tech 38:27 Balancing Personal and De-Identified Advertising Data 42:02 Apple's Privacy Practices and First-Party Advantages 47:22 Safari Tracking Restrictions and IAB Trusted Server 50:44 Why Ad Tech Must Engage With Regulators 55:27 Alan Chapell's Final Analysis and Key Takeaways 01:00:27 Closing Remarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is Apple's Safari browser becoming another gatekeeper for the open web? Host Alan Chapell sits down with Gene Burrus, competition and regulatory attorney and Global Policy Counsel for the Coalition for App Fairness. Gene and Alan discuss Apple’s App Tracking Transparency framework and the European competition response, the Safari domain block list, Google’s conspicuous absence from Apple’s block list, the role of interoperability as a key component of the growth of the web, and the risk of Apple’s actions leading to a splinternet. They also share a few of the (albeit limited) choices available to the adtech community. The Chapell Regulatory Insider can be found at: https://chapellreport.substack.com/ Gene Burrus may be found at https://burruscompstrategies.com/about Takeaways Apple's reported Safari domain blocking raises concerns about browser neutrality, competition, and transparency. Apple's App Tracking Transparency framework faces scrutiny over its potential impact on competing ad tech businesses. Apple's relationship with Google raises questions about consistent enforcement of browser privacy restrictions. Independent ad tech companies face significant legal and financial barriers when challenging powerful platforms. Industry collaboration and interoperable standards could help protect competition and the open web. Chapters 00:29 Introduction to Apple's Safari Blocking Controversy03:30 Coalition for App Fairness and Mobile Gatekeepers06:37 Why Companies Hesitate to Challenge Apple and Google09:39 App Tracking Transparency and EU Antitrust Scrutiny12:20 Safari's Reported Blocking of Ad Tech Domains14:24 Apple, Google, and Competition Concerns16:00 Why Browser Interoperability Matters20:22 Legal Options for Independent Ad Tech Companies24:01 European Class Actions and Regulatory Challenges27:16 Advocacy for Browser Competition32:16 Big Tech's Influence on Innovation34:28 The Risk of a Fragmented Internet38:52 Closing Thoughts with Gene Burrus39:22 Alan Chapell's Analysis of Browser Gatekeeping42:29 Why Independent Ad Tech Needs Collective Action43:22 Potential Solutions for the Ad Tech Industry44:51 Final Takeaways and Outro Guests: Alan Chapell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Keith Petry, SVP of Data and Identity at Viant, and Scott Messer of Messer Media and host of Ad Tech Therapy join Alan Chapell. They explore Google’s ad tech remedies, publisher economics, industry standards, AI’s impact on content, third-party cookies, measurement, and why stronger collective action may be critical to the future of the open web. The Chapell Regulatory Insider can be found at: https://chapellreport.substack.com/ Takeaways - Industry standards only matter when buyers actively adopt them. - Premium publisher inventory needs clearer economic recognition. - Publishers need to rethink how they create, distribute, and monetize IP. - AI is increasing pressure on publishers to protect original content. - Google’s ad tech remedies could create more vendor choice, but change may be gradual. - Third-party cookies and identity remain important to measurement and the open web.  Chapters: 00:29 Welcome to The Monopoly Report 01:13 Google, Publishing, Privacy and Identity 02:12 Keith Petry, SVP of Data and Identity at Viant 03:07 What Google’s Ad Tech Remedies Could Mean 04:11 What the Industry Needs From Trade Associations 06:12 Standards, Agentic Buying and Business Outcomes 07:02 The Future of Publisher Economics 09:20 Viant and the Future of Third-Party Cookies 10:58 Scott Messer on Publishers, AI and Ad Tech 11:40 What Gives Publishers Hope 12:31 Rethinking What It Means to Be a Publisher 14:03 Google’s Ad Tech Remedies and Publisher Choice 15:01 Why Trade Groups Need Stronger Collective Action 17:43 Content Marketplaces and AI Licensing 19:44 Protecting Publishers From AI Content Extraction 20:12 Google Search, Licensing and Model Dehydration 21:47 Why Publishers Need Coordinated Action 23:04 Will Third-Party Cookies Survive? 25:19 Apple ATT and the Future of Measurement 27:08 Key Lessons for Ad Tech and Publishers Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Alan Chapell speaks with Dr. Johnny Ryan, Director of ENFORCE at the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, about GDPR enforcement, real-time bidding, purpose limitation, publisher economics, and the growing power of major technology platforms. Johnny is a long-time critic of programmatic advertising - having characterized real-time bidding as “The biggest data breach in history.” Chapell and Ryan explore whether privacy-friendly advertising can support publishers, the costs of fraud and ad tech intermediaries, and what Europe’s regulatory approach means for the future of digital advertising. The Chapell Regulatory Insider can be found at: https://chapellreport.substack.com/ Takeaways: Weak enforcement has limited GDPR’s practical impact on the digital advertising industry. Purpose limitation and data minimization could reduce privacy risks while still supporting advertising. Reducing behavioral tracking may help publishers limit fraud and unnecessary ad tech costs. Greater transparency is needed around digital advertising measurement and platform data practices. Europe’s digital sovereignty depends partly on stronger enforcement, competition policy, and alternatives to dominant technology platforms. Chapters:00:00 Introduction: GDPR, Privacy and Ad Tech03:10 Dr. Johnny Ryan’s Journey Into Privacy and Ad Tech06:03 GDPR and Europe’s Enforcement Problem11:42 Consent and the European Privacy Framework13:42 Can Advertising Work With Less Personal Data?17:30 Publisher Economics and Contextual Advertising21:09 The Challenge of ID-Less Advertising23:31 Advertisers, Measurement and Ad Tech Transparency27:11 Purpose Limitation and Platform Power36:35 Data Ownership, Privacy and Competition40:07 Europe’s Digital Sovereignty and Big Tech46:04 What Should Ad Tech Companies Do Next?48:30 Tracking, Fraud and Publisher Revenue53:33 Lessons From Dr. Ryan’s Career55:07 Alan’s Key Takeaways and Closing Analysis Guests: Alan Chapell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Claire Stapleton joins Alan Chapell to discuss her years inside Google, from shaping the company’s internal communications to helping organize the 2018 Google walkout. They explore the following from multiple perspectives: Google’s “Don’t Be Evil” philosophy, employee activism, corporate messaging, the limits of worker dissent, and what Claire calls “PR jujitsu” and what Alan characterizes as “Regulatory jujitsu.” Alan and Claire compare notes as between Google’s approach to addressing internal consent, to the company’s approach to managing dissent within the broader digital media industry and within standards bodies. Drawing heavily from Claire’s book Don't Be Evil: Bad Bosses, Fake Promises, and My Escape from Big Tech.the conversation also examines how money, power, and institutional influence can reshape corporate values, plus why employees should build an identity and sense of purpose beyond their jobs. Don’t Be Evil by Claire Stapleton can be purchased at https://tinyurl.com/5n7kkhv3.Yield by Ari Paparo can be purchased at https://tinyurl.com/msfdwrry. The Chapell Regulatory Insider can be found at: https://chapellreport.substack.com/ Takeaways: Google’s early culture built a powerful internal story around openness, innovation, and doing good. The 2018 Google walkout exposed the limits of employee voice and internal dissent. “PR jujitsu” can acknowledge criticism without committing to meaningful change. Vague principles like “Don’t Be Evil” leave significant room for companies to define their own standards. Power and wealth can insulate executives from ordinary feedback and criticism. Employees should avoid making their corporate identity their entire source of self-worth and purpose. Chapters:00:29 Welcome and Introduction00:53 Meet Claire Stapleton01:11 The 2018 Google Walkout04:49 Claire’s Early Years at Google08:09 When Google’s Story Started to Crack10:08 The Road to Employee Activism16:06 Google’s Strategy, Power and Privacy18:19 Article 13 and the Limits of Employee Voice25:32 What “Don’t Be Evil” Really Meant30:03 When Google’s Culture Began to Change32:38 Google’s “PR Jujitsu” Playbook35:18 Alan’s Experience With Google’s Influence40:33 Money, Power and Executive Insulation44:48 Claire’s Advice to Her Younger Self50:22 Alan’s Key Takeaways55:01 Closing Guests: Alan Chapell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Marc Guldimann, founder and CEO of Adelaide, joins Alan Chapell to discuss why attribution may be solving the wrong problem, how AU measures media quality, and whether attention can become a true currency for digital advertising. The Chapell Regulatory Insider can be found at: https://chapellreport.substack.com/ Takeaways Attribution may be a symptom of poor media-quality signals. AU measures the probability of attention and outcomes. Adelaide wants AU to become a shared media-quality currency. Publisher audits could reduce reliance on impression-level tracking. AI-driven media buying will need reliable quality signals. Shared quality standards could reshape how digital media is bought and priced. Chapters00:00 Marc Guldimann’s Background05:45 Why Viewability Gets Gamed07:54 The Problem With Attention Duration10:50 Can AU Replace Viewability?15:06 How Adelaide Builds AU20:13 Adelaide’s Publisher Strategy23:35 AI Agents & Media Quality27:37 Browsers, Privacy & Tracking31:55 Are Outcomes the Real Currency?34:41 Private vs. Shared Measurement38:16 Closing Guests: Alan Chapell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Thirteen months of Google's search data is worth roughly seventeen years of Bing's. That single number explains why Google's search business is now under pressure from four directions at once—the DOJ's antitrust remedy, the EU's Digital Markets Act, the UK's CMA, and the proposed US SEARCH Act. Now that Google is required to share its search data with competitors, the question turns to whether such sharing can be done in a way that is privacy safe. Do PETs offer a solution? Is this simply a place where privacy interests and competition interests are perpetually at odds? Is this simply another opportunity for Google to delay? Alan Chapell sits down with Alissa Cooper of the KGI to discuss the DOJ search remedies, the EU Digital Markets Act, privacy, AI, and what search data sharing could mean for competition and innovation Alissa Cooper’s bio can be found at: https://kgi.georgetown.edu/people/alissa-cooper/  The Chapell Regulatory Insider can be found at: https://chapellreport.substack.com/ Takeaways Why regulators want Google to share search data Privacy vs. competition in search How AI is changing the data-sharing debate Why independent oversight is essential Chapters 00:00 Introduction 03:24 Why Google Must Share Search Data 08:35 Comparing Global Regulations 16:06 What Search Data Includes 19:34 Privacy Concerns 32:20 Independent Oversight 43:00 Final Takeaways 50:05 Closing Remarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is self-regulation still relevant in today's privacy-first advertising landscape? Alan Chapell sits down with Andy Dale, General Counsel and Chief Privacy Officer at OpenAP, to discuss the future of industry self-regulation, AI governance, privacy laws, and what ad tech organizations must do to remain valuable as regulation evolves. The Chapell Regulatory Insider may be found at https://chapellreport.substack.com/ The Data Protection Breakfast Club podcast may be found at https://rephonic.com/podcasts/data-protection-breakfast-club Takeaways: - Why self-regulation in ad tech needs to evolve beyond traditional compliance. - How AI governance, privacy laws, and managed services are reshaping the industry. - The future role of trade associations in supporting advertisers and ad tech companies. - Why collaboration and practical guidance may matter more than ever. Chapters: 00:00 Introduction 00:34 Meet Andy Dale, General Counsel & Chief Privacy Officer at OpenAP 02:54 Is self-regulation still relevant? 06:08 Why now is the time to rethink industry organizations 07:36 Privacy laws vs. self-regulation 10:18 What advertisers need today 13:12 The future of industry collaboration 19:17 The three pillars: Advocacy, Standards & Compliance 22:11 How best practices should evolve 28:50 Managed services and privacy support 32:04 AI governance and the next opportunity 33:18 Does the DAA still matter? 37:25 Industry partnerships and consolidation 44:20 The future value of trade associations 46:03 Final thoughts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Alan Chapell speaks with Martin Thomson, Distinguished Engineer at Mozilla, about the W3C Attribution API, browser-based measurement, privacy-enhancing technologies, interoperability, fraud, and the future of advertising attribution. They examine the tradeoffs between privacy, competition, and ad measurement. The Attribution API spec may be found here: https://github.com/w3c/attributionThe Chapell Regulatory Insider may be found here: https://chapellreport.substack.com/A Written Q&A between Alan and Martin may be found here: https://monopoly-report.com/p/the-w3c-attribution-api Takeaways Mozilla explains the goals behind the W3C Attribution API and browser-based measurement. The discussion explores privacy, interoperability, and the future of digital advertising. Martin Thomson addresses concerns around attribution accuracy, fraud, and competition. The episode examines what remains after Google's Privacy Sandbox initiative. Alan Chapell and Martin Thomson debate how future web standards could reshape ad measurement. Chapters00:00 Introduction01:26 Meet Martin Thomson of Mozilla06:04 What is the W3C Attribution API?10:57 Transparency and trust in browser measurement14:32 Privacy Sandbox and what remains16:07 Differential privacy explained18:37 Interoperability vs. user privacy23:27 Attribution, incrementality, and measurement challenges27:35 The future of measurement partners31:56 Fraud, attribution, and Google's role37:20 Designing standards for the future web41:20 Alan Chapell's key takeaways and analysis45:54 Closing remarks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Alan Chapell sits down with Cindy Cohn, former Executive Director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) and author of Privacy’s Defender. They discuss the landmark Bernstein encryption case, the Snowden revelations, surveillance, behavioral advertising, privacy regulation, competition law, some lessons for companies in the ads space, and the future of digital rights in an increasingly monitored world.  Privacy’s Defender is available at: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262051248/privacys-defender/ Can Privacy Technologies Replace Cookies? Ad Revenue in a Field Experiment is available at: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5284526  The Chapell Regulatory Insider is available at: https://chapellreport.substack.com/ Takeaways Cindy Cohn reflects on her role in the landmark Bernstein case that helped establish encryption as protected speech. The conversation explores how the Snowden disclosures exposed mass government surveillance and reshaped privacy debates. Privacy, competition, copyright, and technology policy are deeply interconnected and require a multi-pronged approach. Both guests agree that many privacy regulations unintentionally burden smaller companies while reinforcing Big Tech dominance. Behavioral advertising, surveillance pricing, and data-driven discrimination pose growing risks to consumers. Cohn argues that privacy rights must be continuously defended and that the next generation has a critical role to play. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Cindy Cohn and Privacy’s Defender 03:57 The Bernstein Case and the Fight for Encryption Rights 06:10 Human Rights Law as a Foundation for Privacy Advocacy 08:23 How an Early Court Victory Shaped a Career 13:22 The NSA, AT&T, and the Snowden Revelations 20:46 Centralized Power, Internet Architecture, and Digital Freedom 25:07 Privacy Regulation, the FCC, and the FTC Debate 29:19 Private Rights of Action and Privacy Enforcement 31:54 Behavioral Advertising vs. Contextual Advertising 35:20 Surveillance Pricing and Consumer Fairness 39:33 Competition Law, Big Tech, and Regulatory Capture 41:10 Why Privacy Is a Team Sport 45:02 Music, Community, and Avoiding Burnout 48:26 Key Lessons from the Conversation 53:08 Surveillance Pricing, AI, and Future Risks 54:06 The Growing Number of Privacy Choke Points 55:11 Final Thoughts and Book Recommendation Guests: Alan Chapell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices