A Conversation with Elizabeth Debold

In this Second Renaissance episode from Life Itself, Rufus Pollock sits down with Bonnitta Roy for part II of their conversation.Listen above or watch the episode hereAbout the EpisodeIn this episode, Bonnitta Roy delves into the challenges of large-scale collective action, the limitations of extrinsic motivation, and the importance of fostering intrinsic motivation and prosocial behavior. Drawing from her own personal experiences and work with the UN, she and Rufus examine the evolution of human cooperation, the role of identity, and the need for new strategies that emphasize inner development for transformative leadership.They also explore the four key skills taught in the Divinity School—awakened perception, visionary scholarship, crazy wisdom, and passionate action—skills that Bonnitta argues are vital for guiding free and willing participants towards positive change. Their conversation addresses the essential qualities of healthy leadership, voluntary obligation, and effectively managing difficult personalities within conscious communities.You can read more about the Divinity School here.Listen to our first interview with Bonnitta Roy here.Chapters00:01:11 Who gets to build the world we live in and the role of investors 00:07:20 Challenges of large-scale collective action and the role of intrinsic motivation00:12:55 The evolution of human prosociality and cultural factors enabling collective action00:21:35 The importance of identity, evaluative reasoning, and enforced social protocols00:37.25 Circles of trust and transcending the Self 00:53:00 The role of trust and voluntary obligation in community building 01:05:00 The need for transformative leadership and toxicity 01:10:02 The four key leadership skills of the Divinity School About Bonnitta RoyBonnitta Roy teaches insight practices for individuals who are developing meta-cognitive skills, and hosts collective insight retreats for groups interested in breaking away from limiting patterns of thought. She teaches a masters course in consciousness studies and transpersonal psychology at the Graduate Institute. Her teaching highlights the embodied, affective and perceptual aspects of the core self, and the non-egoic potentials from which subtle sensing, intuition and insight emerge. Through her company, APP-AI, Bonnitta is developing applications that can visualize changing patterns as teams work through complex problems. Her research shows how simple but powerful protocols that underlie these patterns can be used to represent various dispositional states of human systems. Bonnitta is the author of the popular Medium publication Our Future at Work. She is an associate editor of Integral Review where you can also find her articles on process approaches to consciousness, perception, and metaphysics.About Rufus PollockRufus Pollock is an entrepreneur, activist and author as well as a long-term zen practitioner. He is passionate about finding wiser, weller ways to live together. He has founded several for-profit and nonprofit initiatives including Life Itself, Open Knowledge Foundation, and Datopian. His book Open Revolution is about making a radically freer and fairer information age. Previously he has been the Mead Fellow in Economics at the University of Cambridge as well as a Shuttleworth and Ashoka Fellow. A recognized global expert on the information society, he has worked with G7 governments, IGOs like the UN, Fortune 500s as well as many civil society organizations. He holds a PhD in Economics and a double first in Mathematics from the University of Cambridge. Find out more about his work on his website: rufuspollock.com. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org

In this conversation, Zak and Rufus examine the shift that has taken place from a belief in the intrinsic value of the universe to the modernist view that denies the reality of value.Listen above or watch the episode here:About the episodeZak explains how this loss of value has contributed to the current metacrisis, impacting areas such as education, architecture, and technology. The concept of "civilizational transvaluation" and the dangers of a potential civilizational collapse during this period of profound change are also discussed. Alongside this, the potential for conscious evolution is explored, which could enable new forms of human cooperation and flourishing—provided that we establish an urgent, coherent discourse around value to address the challenges we are facing. This conversation supports the recent book First Principles and First Values: Forty-Two Propositions on CosmoErotic Humanism, the Meta-Crisis, and the World to Come. See detailed notes on the book and our summary here. Chapters00:03:15 - Ideas and motivations behind First Principles and First Values00:13:12 - The shift from intrinsic to denied value00:22:00 - The cold and warm streams of modernity00:32:35 - The dangers of civilizational transvaluation00:46:45 - The importance of value in education and society00:54:58 - The denial of value in architecture01:03:26 - The transhumanist ideology and the denial of value01:30:27 - The path to conscious evolution and homo-moreAbout Zak SteinDr. Zachary Stein is co-founder of the Civilizational Research Institute, the Center for World Philosophy and Religion and Lectica, Inc, and is a widely sought after and award winning speaker. Zak is a leading authority on the future of education and contemporary issues in human development. He was trained at the interface of philosophy, psychology, and education, and now works in fields related to the mitigation of global catastrophic risk. Dr. Stein is the author of several books and many peer-reviewed papers, including most recently First Principles and First Values: Forty-Two Propositions on CosmoErotic Humanism, the Meta-Crisis, and the World to Come, by Zak Stein, Marc Gafni and Ken Wilber writing under the name David J. Temple. About Rufus PollockRufus Pollock is an entrepreneur, activist and author as well as a long-term zen practitioner. He is passionate about finding wiser, weller ways to live together. He has founded several for-profit and nonprofit initiatives including Life Itself, Open Knowledge Foundation, and Datopian. His book Open Revolution is about making a radically freer and fairer information age. Previously he has been the Mead Fellow in Economics at the University of Cambridge as well as a Shuttleworth and Ashoka Fellow. A recognized global expert on the information society, he has worked with G7 governments, IGOs like the UN, Fortune 500s as well as many civil society organizations. He holds a PhD in Economics and a double first in Mathematics from the University of Cambridge. Find out more about his work on his website: rufuspollock.com. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org

In this episode of Ordinary People, Rufus Pollock speaks with Kyle Kowalski, the founder of Sloww. Kyle shares his journey that led him from a high-powered marketing career to becoming a self-described "student of life" and creator of a digital platform dedicated to the art of living. In 2015 Kyle experienced a turning point that shattered his then current and conventional path and set him off on a deeper quest for meaning and purpose. Kyle candidly shares how he navigated the cognitive dissonance of staying in his unfulfilling job while simultaneously immersing himself in the world of intentional living, minimalism, and spiritual self-inquiry. Kyle's story highlights the power in questioning, learning, and trusting the unfolding of one's life journey. In this episode he shares insights into the stages of ego development, the impact of his family conditioning, and the joyful yet challenging process of transcending one's socialized identity. Chapters 00:03:39 The Existential Crisis Catalyst 00:10:22 Embracing Intentional Living 00:18:04 The Path to Entrepreneurship 00:27:15 Reconnecting with Life through Self-Inquiry 00:37:42 Ego Development and Spiritual Evolution 00:44:00 Trust the Extraordinary Unfolding About Kyle Kyle Kowalski is the founder of (and human behind) Sloww. He’s an ex-marketing executive turned self-education entrepreneur after an existential crisis. In one sentence, his purpose is synthesizing lifelong learning that catalyzes deeper development. But, he’s not a professor, philosopher, psychologist, sociologist, anthropologist, scientist, mystic, or guru. He’s an interconnector across all those humans and many more—an “independent, inquiring, interdisciplinary integrator” (in other words, it’s just him, asking questions, crossing disciplines, and making connections). To keep it simple, you can just call him a “synthesizer,” and Sloww is his synthesis on the art of living for students of life. Over the last decade, Kyle has deeply explored lifelong learning, human development, intentional living, life purpose, mental mastery, and spiritual growth. He shares all his learning and living with 10,000+ email subscribers and 50,000+ social followers.About Rufus Rufus Pollock is an entrepreneur, activist and author as well as a long-term zen practitioner. He is passionate about finding wiser, weller ways to live together. He has founded several for-profit and nonprofit initiatives including Life Itself, Open Knowledge Foundation, and Datopian. His book Open Revolution is about making a radically freer and fairer information age. Previously he has been the Mead Fellow in Economics at the University of Cambridge as well as a Shuttleworth and Ashoka Fellow. A recognized global expert on the information society, he has worked with G7 governments, IGOs like the UN, Fortune 500s as well as many civil society organizations. He holds a PhD in Economics and a double first in Mathematics from the University of Cambridge. Find out more about his work on his website: rufuspollock.com. Ordinary People is a podcast series as part of The Life Itself Podcast that delves into the lives of individuals who have defied societal expectations and embarked on extra-ordinary paths despite their seemingly ordinary backgrounds. Join us as we dive deep into their lives, uncovering their motivations, beliefs, practices, and moments of transformation. We demystify hero worship and share accessible narratives of real individuals who have transcended societal expectations and norms. Each guest delicately navigates the balance between introspection and worldly engagement. Listeners are offered empowerment, kinship and inspiration for embarking on their own extra-ordinary journey. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org

In this episode from the Ordinary People series, Rufus Pollock sits down with Bonnitta Roy to explore her extraordinary life journey, from her early days in a Connecticut factory town to her groundbreaking work in neuroscience, philosophy, and spiritual practice. Bonnitta recounts her adventurous childhood, her academic achievements, and the profound moments of introspection that shaped her worldview. As she navigates her college years and early career, Bonnitta shares the transformative experiences that led her to leave a promising scientific career and dive into the world of philosophy and art in San Francisco.Bonnitta also delves into her spiritual awakening, recounting intense experiences that deepened her understanding of herself and the world around her. Her story includes a powerful psychological split that allowed her to see the world in a new light, ultimately leading her to innovative approaches in horse training and teaching. Throughout the conversation, Bonnitta emphasizes the importance of living a balanced life, grounded in reality while embracing deep spiritual insights.About Bonnitta RoyBonnitta Roy teaches insight practices for individuals who are developing meta-cognitive skills, and hosts collective insight retreats for groups interested in breaking away from limiting patterns of thought. She teaches a masters course in consciousness studies and transpersonal psychology at the Graduate Institute. Her teaching highlights the embodied, affective and perceptual aspects of the core self, and the non-egoic potentials from which subtle sensing, intuition and insight emerge. Through her company, APP-AI, Bonnitta is developing applications that can visualize changing patterns as teams work through complex problems. Her research shows how simple but powerful protocols that underlie these patterns can be used to represent various dispositional states of human systems. Bonnitta is the author of the popular Medium publication Our Future at Work. She is an associate editor of Integral Review where you can also find her articles on process approaches to consciousness, perception, and metaphysics.About Rufus PollockRufus Pollock is an entrepreneur, activist and author as well as a long-term zen practitioner. He is passionate about finding wiser, weller ways to live together. He has founded several for-profit and nonprofit initiatives including Life Itself, Open Knowledge Foundation, and Datopian. His book Open Revolution is about making a radically freer and fairer information age. Previously he has been the Mead Fellow in Economics at the University of Cambridge as well as a Shuttleworth and Ashoka Fellow. A recognized global expert on the information society, he has worked with G7 governments, IGOs like the UN, Fortune 500s as well as many civil society organizations. He holds a PhD in Economics and a double first in Mathematics from the University of Cambridge. Find out more about his work on his website: rufuspollock.com.Ordinary People is a podcast series that delves into the lives of individuals who have defied societal expectations and embarked on extra-ordinary paths despite their seemingly ordinary backgrounds. Join us as we dive deep into their lives, uncovering their motivations, beliefs, practices, and moments of transformation. We demystify hero worship and share accessible narratives of real individuals who have transcended societal expectations and norms. Each guest delicately navigates the balance between introspection and worldly engagement. Listeners are offered empowerment, kinship and inspiration for embarking on their own extra-ordinary journey.Chapters5:07 Childhood experiences & self-awareness12:23 College culture, social games, & personal growth25:47 Power dynamics & inauthenticity in a college setting32:31 LSD use & academic career choices39:35 San Francisco & New York in the late 80s & early 90s46:09 Personal experiences with poverty & homelessness1:02:20 Spiritual experiences, limitations of the self, & the perception of beauty1:14:00 Using Qigong & horse training to understand fundamental nature of reality1:30:15 Cultivating inner capacities & awakened perception This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org

In this episode of Ordinary People host Sylvie Barbier speaks with Rainer von Leoprechting, an inspiring figure who transitioned from a structured career in the European Commission to a fulfilling life as an independent consultant working internationally from his small farm place in  Austria.Rainer shares his journey from studying Economics and Business Administration in Germany to embracing a critical view of economic systems. After joining the European Commission in 1994, he eventually left to co-found initiatives like the Frændi Partnership and the Obenaus community in Austria, focusing on innovative leadership and long-term strategic thinking. Rainer reflects on the systemic challenges of his generation, the importance of fostering new approaches for younger generations, and the transformative power of leaving behind the "golden cage" of conventional success. He emphasizes the value of community, creativity, and proactive change in leadership roles.This episode is a testament to how stepping away from comfort zones can lead to a richer, more authentic life. Join us for a compelling conversation that delves into the heart of personal and societal transformation, highlighting the potential within each of us to impact the world positively.#community #economicsystems #transform #leadership #podcast #ordinarypeopleAbout Rainer von LeoprechtingRainer von Leoprechting is a German entrepreneur and philanthropist. He works as an independent consultant and is co-founder of the Fraendi partnership.About Sylvie BarbierSylvie Barbier is a French-Taiwanese performance artist, entrepreneur and educator. She co-founded Life Itself to build a wiser future through culture, space and community. Ordinary People is a podcast series that delves into the lives of individuals who have defied societal expectations and embarked on extra-ordinary paths despite their seemingly ordinary backgrounds. Join us as we dive deep into their lives, uncovering their motivations, beliefs, practices, and moments of transformation. We demystify hero worship and share accessible narratives of real individuals who have transcended societal expectations and norms. Each guest delicately navigates the balance between introspection and worldly engagement. Listeners are offered empowerment, kinship and inspiration for embarking on their own extra-ordinary journey.Chapters00:02:25: The 2035 Process: Preparing for the Future00:07:54: Founding the Frændi Partnership00:12:33: Inspiration from Jean Monnet00:19:49: Rainer’s Formative Years00:22:39: Family Background and Education00:27:10: Transition to Independent Consultancy00:34:20: The Role of Community in Leadership This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org

In this episode of Ordinary People host Sylvie Barbier sits down with Natalia Lombardo, a multifaceted community developer and psychedelic guide. Natalia shares her journey from her roots in Argentina to her current endeavors in Europe, where she engages in community development, permaculture, and creative activism. She opens up about her personal healing journey following a severe brain injury and how this led her to explore and integrate psychedelics into her therapeutic practices. Natalia's story is one of transformation, resilience, and the continuous pursuit of innovative ways to foster collaboration and personal growth. #permaculture #collaborative #psychedelics #collective #activism #ordinarypeople #podcast About Natalia Lombardo Nati helps groups to cultivate a collaborative culture through values-driven behavioral change. Her focus is the self in "self-organising": the beliefs, attitudes and behaviours each of us brings into any collective endeavour. Co-founder and Collaboration Coach at The Hum . Co-owner of Loomio and member of Enspiral. About Sylvie Barbier Sylvie Barbier is a French-Taiwanese performance artist, entrepreneur and educator. She co-founded Life Itself to build a wiser future through culture, space and community. Ordinary People is a podcast series that delves into the lives of individuals who have defied societal expectations and embarked on extra-ordinary paths despite their seemingly ordinary backgrounds. Join us as we dive deep into their lives, uncovering their motivations, beliefs, practices, and moments of transformation. We demystify hero worship and share accessible narratives of real individuals who have transcended societal expectations and norms. Each guest delicately navigates the balance between introspection and worldly engagement. Listeners are offered empowerment, kinship and inspiration for embarking on their own extra-ordinary journey. Chapters 00:02:09: Current Projects and Passions 00:03:23: Nati's Childhood Journey from Argentina to Europe 00:15:51: Discovering Permaculture and Community Living in Argentina 00:21:43: Intergenerational Communication in Communities 00:29:37: Unlearning Societal Norms and Exploring New Models 00:36:14: Healing with Psychedelics 00:42:34: Embracing a New Identity Post-Trauma 00:45:33: Discovering New Energies and Capabilities This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org

In this episode of Ordinary People Walking Extra-Ordinary Path, Life Itself Co-Founder Sylvie Barbier is joined by Liam Kavanagh. Liam reflects on his transition from observing environmental changes to spearheading initiatives like the Climate Majority Project. From his childhood curiosity and nourished creativity to his adult inquiries into the nature of thought and emotion, Liam shares how an openness to people from all walks of life, a thirst for understanding truth, and a dedicated meditation practice have shaped his unconventional journey. His story invites us to question societal norms and embark on our own journey of spiritual inquiry in service of an awakening society. #ordinarypeople #climatechange #meditation #buddism #curiosity #adhd #secondrenaissance About Liam Kavanagh Liam Kavanagh is co-founder of Life Itself and Director of the Climate Majority Project. About Sylvie Barbier Sylvie Barbier is a French-Taiwanese performance artist, entrepreneur and educator. She co-founded Life Itself to build a wiser future through culture, space and community. Ordinary People is a podcast series that delves into the lives of individuals who have defied societal expectations and embarked on extra-ordinary paths despite their seemingly ordinary backgrounds. Join us as we dive deep into their lives, uncovering their motivations, beliefs, practices, and moments of transformation. We demystify hero worship and share accessible narratives of real individuals who have transcended societal expectations and norms. Each guest delicately navigates the balance between introspection and worldly engagement. Listeners are offered empowerment, kinship and inspiration for embarking on their own extra-ordinary journey. Chapters0:00 - Liam's path from economist to climate activist 03:12 - Growing up, family values and curiosity 10:06 - Creativity, ADHD, and family support 14:47 - Living in a squat, visiting Compton, and encountering gang violence 25:45 - Buddhism and the book that opened my mind 35:40 - Economics, neuroscience, and understanding the emotional holes of economic ideas 42:35 - Meditation and practice 53:15 - Questioning societal norms and the thirst for enquiry This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org

In this episode of Ordinary People Sylvie Barbier speaks with Elizabeth Debold in a thought-provoking dialogue exploring the intersections of gender, identity, and culture. Elizabeth shares her journey of questioning societal norms around gender roles and relationships, stemming from witnessing the destructive dynamic between her parents. She talks about her early spiritual experience that opened her up to a sense of unity, and her involvement in feminist activism and spiritual communities. The conversation explores themes of community, interbeing, postmodernism, and the tensions between different generations.#societalchange #genderidentity #growth #resilience #feminine #masculine #ordinarypeople #secondrenaissance #developmentalpsychology About Elizabeth Debold Elizabeth Debold is a developmental psychologist, gender futurist and author of the bestselling Mother Daughter Revolution. She has spent the past four decades working as an activist, researcher, journalist, spiritual explorer, and transformative educator in relation to gender and cultural evolution. About Sylvie BarbierSylvie Barbier is a French-Taiwanese performance artist, entrepreneur and educator. She co-founded Life Itself to build a wiser future through culture, space and community.Ordinary People is a podcast series that delves into the lives of individuals who have defied societal expectations and embarked on extra-ordinary paths despite their seemingly ordinary backgrounds. Join us as we dive deep into their lives, uncovering their motivations, beliefs, practices, and moments of transformation. We demystify hero worship and share accessible narratives of real individuals who have transcended societal expectations and norms. Each guest delicately navigates the balance between introspection and worldly engagement. Listeners are offered empowerment, kinship and inspiration for embarking on their own extra-ordinary journey.Chapters0:00 - Gender identity, spirituality, and creating sacred spaces for connection05:32 - Personal growth through writing and identity formation11:26 - Gender roles, expectations, and family betrayal19:38 - Gender roles and cultural divisions25:17 - Gender roles, femininity, and community life34:34 - Women's empowerment and interpersonal relationships41:40 - Family dynamics, and sibling relationships48:00 - Generational differences and the challenges of growing up in a postmodern society This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org

In this episode of Ordinary People Rufus Pollock talks with Daniel Thorson. Daniel shares his unique journeys of finding faith, meaning, and personal growth through unexpected avenues of meditation, living at a Goenka center, and participating in the Occupy Wall Street movement. They delve into the critical roles of trust, courage, and support in navigating life's uncertainties and explore the intersection of Buddhism and technology, pondering the potential for online spaces to foster contemplative practices, and sustaining personal and societal transformation through commitment and deep inquiry.#monastic #emerge #buddhism #friendship #inquiry #technology #socialtransformation #courage #faith #meditationAbout Daniel ThorsonDaniel Thorson is a writer, a Monastic at Monastic Academy and the creator and host of the podcast Emerge – Making Sense of What's Next, where he explores meaning, responsibility, and human development in the age of automation and climate collapse, and the relationship between inner and outer transformation. About Rufus PollockRufus Pollock is an entrepreneur, activist and author as well as a long-term zen practitioner. He is passionate about finding wiser, weller ways to live together. He has founded several for-profit and nonprofit initiatives including Life Itself, Open Knowledge Foundation, and Datopian. His book Open Revolution is about making a radically freer and fairer information age. Previously he has been the Mead Fellow in Economics at the University of Cambridge as well as a Shuttleworth and Ashoka Fellow. A recognized global expert on the information society, he has worked with G7 governments, IGOs like the UN, Fortune 500s as well as many civil society organizations. He holds a PhD in Economics and a double first in Mathematics from the University of Cambridge. Find out more about his work on his website: rufuspollock.com.Ordinary People is a podcast series that delves into the lives of individuals who have defied societal expectations and embarked on extra-ordinary paths despite their seemingly ordinary backgrounds. Join us as we dive deep into their lives, uncovering their motivations, beliefs, practices, and moments of transformation. We demystify hero worship and share accessible narratives of real individuals who have transcended societal expectations and norms. Each guest delicately navigates the balance between introspection and worldly engagement. Listeners are offered empowerment, kinship and inspiration for embarking on their own extra-ordinary journey.Chapters00:05 Personal growth, meditation, and systems change with a focus on alienation and finding meaning in life06:48 Occupy Wall Street movement, Buddhist geeks, and hope, and power18:02 Creating a modern monastery to address planetary crisis27:18 Personal growth, breakthroughs, and the importance of faith and support39:41 The importance of friendship in personal growth and spiritual development47:19 Creating intentional communities for personal growth and service59:07 How to help people stay in a community and work through conflicts1:05:02 Commitment and transformation through structured programs1:10:53 desires through inquiry, letting go of preferences and avoiding manipulation.1:20:59 The nature of truth and goodness in a secular humanist society and its relationship to religion, culture, and personal transformation1:31:27 Truth, meaning, and values in post-conventional society This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org

In this episode of Ordinary People Sylvie Barbier speaks with Valerie Duvauchelle on the transformative power of Zen and embodied practices. Valerie explains her personal journey as she navigates the complexities of cultural and generational trauma, exploring the profound impact Zen Buddhism had on her connection with self, others, and nature.#ordinarypeople #zen #wisdom #meditation #wiserworld #tenzo #bergeracpraxishub #consciouscollectives This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit news.lifeitself.org