Facts Vs. Clicks: How Algorithms Reward Extremism

On this week’s episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the upcoming 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. He examines the many actions President Donald Trump has taken that run counter to the ideals articulated in 1776, and considers how the Founders’ constitutional genius may ultimately be what frustrates Trump’s attempt to consolidate power. David is then joined by his Atlantic colleague Charlie Warzel, a staff writer and the host of the Galaxy Brain podcast, to discuss the temptations that come with launching a new podcast and the challenge of serving an audience that often rewards extreme content. Together, they talk about the responsibility that comes with hosting a podcast in a media environment that prizes clicks over truth. They also explore how conspiracy theorists have come to function as an alternate reality of “mainstream media,” and why the fight for truth may not yet be lost. Finally, David closes with a discussion of Edward Berenson’s The Trial of Madame Caillaux and what it reveals about how future generations may come to view our own beliefs.  Sign up for David Frum’s newsletter alert. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week’s episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the Trump administration’s hostility toward NATO. David discusses why NATO was created, what it does, and why we should care about it. He also analyzes the United State’s global leadership role and why so many bad actors advocate for isolationism. Then David is joined by his Atlantic colleague Helen Lewis to talk about the proliferation and importance of right-wing “comedy” podcasts. They discuss why some comedians seem to go right-wing and why a growing audience is drawn to their uninformed rhetoric. Lewis also addresses the complicity that comedians and their audience share in the rise of MAGA. Finally, David closes the podcast with a discussion on Edith Wharton’s Autres Temps and how it speaks to moral panics, social pariahs, and so-called cancel culture. Sign up for David Frum’s newsletter alert. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week’s episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the shooting at Bondi Beach and the rise of anti-Semitic violence globally. He discusses what governments can do to crack down on radicals and prevent future acts of violence. Then David is joined by Will Thomas, a professor at the Michigan Ross School of Business, to discuss Thomas’s paper “Crypto Kleptocracy.” David and Thomas discuss how the second Trump term has embraced the crypto industry, how cryptocurrencies have enriched the Trump family, and the new channels for corruption that crypto opens.  Finally, David discusses Joseph Conrad’s “Lord Jim” and what the novel can teach us about courage, a discussion relevant after an eyewitness reported that he thought police were slow to act during the terrorist attack on Bondi Beach. Sign up for David Frum’s newsletter alert. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week’s episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the absurd Peace Prize awarded to Donald Trump by FIFA. David discusses how the invented prize reflects what FIFA understands about our president—that he’s the kind of leader who can be won over with shiny trinkets and fancy ceremonies.  Then, David is joined by Michael Waldman from the Brennan Center for Justice to discuss how the Trump administration might try to undermine or even outright steal the 2026 elections. David and Michael discuss the possible actions Trump could take, along with the systems in place to stop him and what reforms need to happen to the American electoral system. Michael also discusses the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and what Republicans are doing to undermine it. Finally, David closes the episode with a discussion of an article titled “How Responsibility Shapes Career Success for Leaders,” and what a lesson in management tells us about Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s leadership and accountability (or lack thereof) in the controversy over the strikes in Caribbean Sea. Sign up for David Frum’s newsletter alert. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this week’s episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the shocking alleged corruption that has informed President Donald Trump’s actions towards Ukraine and the scandal of the recently proposed “peace plan” by the United States. He goes on to discuss how the many scandals of the Trump presidency make it hard it to focus on just one, as it is quickly replaced in the news cycle by another. Then David is joined by Jonathan Gruber, an economics professor of Economics and the chairman of the economics department at MIT. Gruber discusses the backlash he faced as a key architect of the Affordable Care Act and why the American health-care system still feels so broken. David and Gruber also talk about the war on both vaccines and science that is being waged by the conservative right. Finally, David closes the episode with a discussion on They Thought They Were Free, by Milton Mayer, and what we can learn about teaching soldiers to commit crimes. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the unceremonious end of the Department of Government Efficiency. He examines the legacy DOGE leaves behind, why it failed, and how it became yet another example of the Trump administration’s drive to make America’s government weaker and smaller. David is then joined by the historian and biographer Sam Tanenhaus to discuss his sweeping new biography of William F. Buckley Jr., “Buckley: The Life and the Revolution That Changed America.” Frum and Tanenhaus reflect on the Buckley they both knew, exploring his strengths, his flaws, and his influence on the American conservative movement from the 1960s onward. Finally, David closes with a discussion of Booth Tarkington’s novel “Alice Adams” and the lessons we can still take from a once-celebrated, now often-derided work of American literature. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts on the recent gifts given to President Donald Trump by the Swiss government. He argues that the incident is yet another example of Trump’s favor being won through personal gifts and another sign of how his administration has forced the United States to abandon its traditional leadership role in the global order, reshaping American foreign policy into something closer to that of an extractive predator state. David is then joined by Margaret MacMillan, emeritus professor of history at the University of Toronto and emeritus professor of international history at Oxford University, for a conversation about what a “post-American” world order might look like. They examine the United States’ retreat from global leadership under Trump, and consider whether the U.S. functions as an empire and whether that empire is now in decline. Finally, David closes with a discussion of what Charles Dickens’s “The Old Curiosity Shop” can teach us about grief. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/Listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of “The David Frum Show,” The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with his thoughts about the impending end to the government shutdown. David argues that the fight within the Democratic Party about ending the shutdown isn’t about the shutdown itself; rather, it’s about the future face of the party. David argues that now is a good moment to make a deal and that the Democrats have accomplished all they could hope to from the shutdown. He also cautions that allowing the left wing of the Democrats’ base to use any potential deal as a means to push the party down a more confrontational, more radical path must be avoided. Then David is joined by The Bulwark’s Sarah Longwell. David and Sarah discuss the exit polls from this year’s elections and the current state of play within the American electorate. Sarah discusses how the increasing gender gap in voting patterns reflects a broader polarization between higher- and lower-information voters. Sarah also discusses how Donald Trump has upended everything we thought we knew about voting patterns and the uneasy position Republicans find themselves in once he’s off the ballot. Finally, David closes with a talk about “The Emergency,” a new novel by The Atlantic’s George Packer. Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about the coming Supreme Court battle over President Donald Trump’s use of tariff powers. If the Court endorses Trump’s claim that anything he deems an emergency allows him to impose tariffs, Frum argues that the United States will face a constitutional crisis unlike any before. The president will, in effect, have staged a “constitutional coup,” stripping Congress of its most fundamental Article I powers. Then Frum speaks with Quico Toro of Caracas Chronicles about the Trump administration’s escalating pressure on Venezuela. They explore what American intervention might look like, the realities of Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro’s hold on control, and whether any foreign power could truly bring his rule to an end. Finally, Frum closes with a reflection on Lion Feuchtwanger’s The Oppermanns and the rising tide of conspiracist anti-Semitism seen on both the left and the right today. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on the new Trump administration’s pattern of “politicized stupidity”: the willful refusal to understand abuses of power, including the destruction of the White House’s East Wing and the perceived sale of government influence disguised as private donations. Then Frum speaks with his Atlantic colleague Tom Nichols, an expert on civil-military relations and a longtime scholar of U.S. defense policy, about President Donald Trump’s efforts to turn  the military into a personal instrument of power. Nichols explains how the capture of the Justice Department, the firing of Pentagon lawyers, and the use of the National Guard against civilians are eroding the rule of law, and how a president can launch wars without congressional consent. Finally, Frum closes with a reflection on Eugène Ionesco’s play Rhinoceros, a parable about conformity and courage, and what it means to remain human in a world where everyone else is turning into beasts.  Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices