#145 | Commercial Space - Uncensored | Pierre Lionnet, ASD-Eurospace

Is the space sector actually financed in the right way? That’s probably the main question I’m discussing with my guest Justin Stevens, founder and CEO of the investment firm Overlap Holdings. He spent 18 years at Apollo Global Management, a very prominent private equity firm. So he’s a Wall Street guy like me and, I think, qualified to voice an opinion on this questions which we may not ask enough. Enjoy!   🕰️ Timestamps:  00:00 - Introduction  01:08 - Guest Intro  02:31 - Overlap Holdings Name Origin and Activities 03:43 - Capital Solutions and Government Solutions 06:24 - The Role of Debt in Frontier Tech 12:08 - Types of Debt and Their Applications 21:21 - Government Contracts and Lending 23:30 - Navigating Government Lending Challenges 24:00 - Leveraging a Detailed Lender Database 27:05 - The Importance of Government Financing 30:12 - The Evolution of Space Investing 33:57 - Investor Perspectives on Space 36:09 - Founding Overlap and Investing in Frontier Technology 39:17 - Future of Space and Investment Strategies 43:29 - Hypothetical Space Startup Ideas 46:09 - Science Fiction   📍 About the Guest: Justin is a seasoned investor and operator with over 18 years as a Senior Partner at Apollo Global Management, where he developed deep expertise in financial structuring and investment management. He has invested in, built, advised, and overseen organizations ranging from early-stage frontier tech startups to large, publicly traded companies. With a strong network across finance, industry, and government, Justin brings a multidisciplinary approach to navigating complex markets and driving long-term value across sectors. 🔗 Connect with Justin: 🤝 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinstevensny/   🔗 Follow us: 🏠Website : https://www.e2mc.space/ 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelroettgen 🌐Instagram - https://instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇  Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓 https://www.edx.org/course/new-space- Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/  

My guest this week is Pierre Lionnet, Director of Research at Eurospace, who has followed the global space sector for over 30 years. We discuss a range of topics including e.g. SpaceX, the launch sector in general, and national space policies. Pierre is one of my favorite people to follow on space as he usually provides very frank and thought out opinions. I think this comes through in this episode - enjoy!   🕰️ Timestamps:  00:00 - Introduction  00:55 - Guest Introduction 01:34 - Day-to-Day Activities at Eurospace 03:15 - Challenges in the Space Sector 06:22 - SpaceX's Impact on the Space Industry 07:35 - Economic Contributions and Cost Structures 11:02 - Production and Market Segmentation in Space 21:44 - Institutional Programs vs. Commercial Ventures 27:40 - Starlink's Business Model and Future Prospects 35:12 - SpaceX's Dominance in Commercial Launch 35:56 - The Cost and Pricing of Space Launches 38:40 - Starship's Potential and Market Impact 40:51 - Challenges for New Market Entrants 43:25 - National Space Policies and Industrial Strategies 46:27 - Global Space Economy and Future Projections 55:16 - Advice for Emerging Space Nations 01:00:19 - The Future Structure of the Space Economy 01:05:13 - Science Fiction and Space 01:06:07 - Conclusion    📍 About the Guest: Pierre Lionnet is the Research and Managing Director at Eurospace, the trade organization of the European space industry). He labels himself a space economist, being an economist by training and being professionally involved in the analysis of space markets, space industry supply chains and space technology and innovation trends for the past 30 years   🔗 Connect with Pierre: 🤝 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eurospacepierrelionnet/   🔗 Follow us: 🏠Website : https://www.e2mc.space/ 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelroettgen 🌐Instagram - https://instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇  Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓 https://www.edx.org/course/new-space- Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/  

My guest this week is Sebastian Klaus, Co-Founder & CEO of Atmos Space Cargo, who discusses his company’s mission to unlock downmass logistics with an innovative and reusable space capsule, paving the way for in-space manufacturing, defense applications, and other applications. 🕰️ Timestamps:  00:00 - Introduction 00:59 - Elevator Pitch 02:07 - Importance of Returning Cargo from Space 04:24 - Challenges and Technologies in Space Re-entry 06:16 - Innovations in Heat Shield Technology 11:16 - Economic Impact and Reusability 13:12 - Mission Operations and Logistics 20:15 - Regulatory Considerations 22:33 - ATMOS Phoenix Capsule 23:36 - Impact of Starship on Space Logistics 25:13 - Space Stations and Free Flyers 27:22 - Market Segments in Space Logistics 30:35 - Defense Applications and Future Prospects 37:16 - Recent Test Flight and Future Plans 42:07 - Science-Fiction   📍 About the Guest: Sebastian Klaus holds a Master of Science in Aerospace Engineering with a focus on atmospheric re-entry and reusable rocket engines. He has more than a decade of leadership experience as a military officer, supplemented by business knowledge from an MBA program at ESB Business School Reutlingen. Sebastian has developed and submitted several patented technologies for entry and descent. With a commercial pilot license and unique knowledge about parachute systems, as well as passion for nature and spaceflight, he is determined to overcome existing and future challenges in life sciences research in space in order to benefit all of humanity. 🔗 https://atmos-space-cargo.com/   🔗 Follow us: 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelroettgen 🌐Instagram - https://instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇  Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC 🏠Website : https://www.e2mc.space/   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓 https://www.edx.org/course/new-space- Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/  

My guest this week is Glen Martin, Co-Founder & CEO of Extraterrestrial Mining Company (XMC), discusses his company’s bold mission to mine Helium-3 on the Moon and its potential to revolutionize energy and tech on Earth.   🕰️ Timestamps:  00:00 - Introduction  01:36 - Elevator Pitch 03:42 - Understanding Helium-3 and Its Applications 11:59 - Tech Aspects of Lunar Mining 20:39 - Future Prospects and Initial Missions 23:31 - Energy Solutions for Lunar Operations 29:23 - Helium-3 Concentrations and Mining Challenges 32:09 - Lunar Data and Exploration Techniques 35:32 - Geopolitical Implications 40:33 - Transportation and Return Logistics 48:08 - Project Financing for Space Mining 51:28 - Personal Background and Career Path 56:14 Science Fiction   📍 About the Guest: Glen Martin, CEO of XMC, has over 30 years of experience in renewable energy and space infrastructure. Before founding XMC in 2023, he led companies like Hyox Inc., Infrastructure Energy, and Pod Generating Group, and co-founded ProtoStar Limited. He’s worked on projects spanning green hydrogen, solar PV, intelligent grids, and satellite systems. Early in his career, he contributed to the International Space Station at McDonnell Douglas. Glen holds a BTech in Aerospace Engineering from TMU and an MBA from USC.   🔗 Connect with Glen: 🤝 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/glen-martin-space-heavy-industrialist/   🔗 Follow us: 🏠Website : https://www.e2mc.space/ 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelroettgen 🌐Instagram - https://instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇  Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓 https://www.edx.org/course/new-space- Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/

This episode kicks off a new series on in-space R&D and manufacturing, exploring its potential (e.g. for sectors like pharma and semiconductors), its current status, and its challenges, among other topics. At the end of this episode, Raphael highlights the recent launch of the Orbital Edge accelerator to support startups in this emerging sector.   Orbital Edge Accelerator: https://orbitaledge.techconnect.org/   🕰️ Timestamps:  00:00 - Introduction  02:23 - Why research and manufacture in Space? 10:28 - How to research and manufacture in Space, in practice? 22:35 - How can be build a thriving in-space R&D and manufacturing sector? 28:45 - Conclusion    🔗 Follow us: 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelroettgen 🌐Instagram - https://instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇  Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓https://www.edx.org/course/new-space-economy Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/

My guest this week is Adel Haddoud, Founder & CEO of Infinite Orbits, a French in-orbit servicing company. We discuss their technology, business model, and vision, as well as the broader market for satellite servicing and space sustainability. Enjoy! 🕰️ Timestamps:  00:00 - Introduction 01:04 - Elevator Pitch  03:30 - Origin Story 04:51 - Technological Innovations 07:35 - Core of the Company 09:15 - Computing Hardware in Space 12:47 - Market Segments and Competition 18:38 - Life Extension in Space 23:49 - Unit Economics  26:13 - Life Extension and Docking 30:22 - OrbitGuard and Defense  31:06 - European vs. U.S. Space Market Dynamics 33:10 - Technological Advances and Future Prospects 42:06 - The Future of Space Servicing 45:00 - Interesting Developments in the Industry 45:55 - Sci-Fi Favorites   📍 About the Guest: Adel Haddoud is the Founder & CEO of Infinite Orbits, a Toulouse-based space company pioneering in-orbit services like satellite inspection and life extension. In 2024, the company raised €12 million from private and public investors, following the successful 2023 test of its OrbitGuard1 nanosatellite—the world’s first geostationary nanosatellite. Founded in 2017, Infinite Orbits has developed an innovative space rendezvous solution using in-orbit image recognition. Adel previously had a career as an entrepreneur and manager, including a stint in Silicon Valley. 🔗 Connect with Adel: 🤝 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adelhaddoud/   🔗 Follow us: 🏠Website : https://www.e2mc.space/ 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelroettgen 🌐Instagram - https://instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇  Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓 https://www.edx.org/course/new-space- Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/  

Asteroid mining is making a comeback. It may sound futuristic, but some startups are betting on a viable and economic path to making it a reality and investors are taking notice. One of those companies is Karman+, and this week, I’m joined by its Co-Founder, Daynan Crull. Enjoy!   🕰️ Timestamps:  00:00 - Introduction 01:13 - Elevator Pitch 04:18 - Vision and Challenges of Asteroid Mining 06:07 - Recruitment and Team Building 07:44 - Origin Story and Motivation 12:35 - Market Timing and Investor Sentiment 19:49 - Technological and Logistical Challenges 26:12 - Geopolitical and Legal Considerations 32:11 - Mission Timeline and Milestones 36:53 - Economic Viability of Asteroid Mining 41:16 - Future Missions and Scaling Operations 45:19 - Interesting Developments in the Industry 46:15 - Sci-Fi Favorites   📍 About the Guest: Daynan Crull is the Co-Founder and Mission Architect at Karman+, leading efforts to mine Near-Earth Asteroids for sustainable energy and resources. Previously, he was a Senior Data Scientist at New Light Technologies and the World Bank. From 2018 to 2020, he held data science roles at GeoPhy. Before transitioning to tech, he served in strategy and policy roles at the NYC Mayor’s Office and the Department of Information Technology & Telecommunications. Earlier, he worked at Blue State Digital and the NYC Council. Crull holds an M.S. in Urban Informatics from NYU Tandon and a B.A. from DePauw University. 🔗 Connect with Daynan: 🤝 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daynan/   🔗 Follow us: 🏠Website : https://www.e2mc.space/ 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelroettgen 🌐Instagram - https://instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇  Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓 https://www.edx.org/course/new-space- Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/  

Space to Grow is a new book on the space economy. Its authors, Matt Weinzierl, a professor at Harvard Business School, and Brendan Rosseau, also formerly of Harvard and now in strategy at Blue Origin, are my guests this week. Enjoy!   Space to Grow: Unlocking the Final Economic Frontier (Harvard Business Publishing, 2025) https://www.amazon.com/Space-Grow-Unlocking-Economic-Frontier/dp/1647827167#:~:text=Book%20overview&text=An%20exploration%20of%20the%20dynamic,a%20commercial%20revolution%20right%20now.   🕰️ Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 05:16 - Building a Thriving Space Economy 09:15 - Government's Role in the Space Economy 11:07 - Regulatory and Economic Environment  14:33 - Economies beyond Regulation 19:02 - Government Dependency in Space Markets 25:32 - Historical Parallels and Lessons for Space 30:12 - Defining a Thriving Space Economy 33:02 - Challenges and Opportunities in Space Manufacturing 35:29 - Role of Government and Private Sector in Space 41:18 - Financing the Space Economy 45:55 - Factors limiting large-scale funding in Space 53:19 - What’s next in Space? 54:45 - Sci-Fi Favorites   📍 About the Guests: Matthew C. Weinzierl  Matthew C. Weinzierl is the author of Space to Grow: Unlocking the Final Economic Frontier (Harvard Business Publishing, 2025) an American academic. He is a Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School. He has published research on taxation. He worked at McKinsey & Company after he attended Harvard University. Weinzierl earned a PhD in economics from Harvard University in 2008. Brendan Rosseau  Brendan Rosseau is the co-author of Space to Grow: Unlocking the Final Economic Frontier (Harvard Business Publishing, 2025), Strategy Manager at Blue Origin, and former Teaching Fellow at Harvard Business School. With experience in space consulting, policy, aerospace startups, and astrophysical research, they have a background in astronomy and economics. Former Associate at Booz Allen Hamilton supporting U.S. Space Force.   🔗 Connect with them on LinkedIn: 🤝Matthew Weinzierl  - https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-weinzierl-67312846/ 🤝Brendan Rosseau - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendan-rosseau/   🔗 Follow us: 🏠Website : https://www.e2mc.space/ 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelrottgen/ 🌐Instagram - https://instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇ Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓 https://www.edx.org/course/new-space- Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/

My guest this week is Stan Maximin, Founder & Executive Chairman of Latitude, a French micro-launch company. We discuss Latitude's rocket, target customers, and vision, as well as the wider launch market in Europe and globally. Enjoy!   🕰️ Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 01:28 - Elevator Pitch 02:57 - Starting a Launch Company 11:20 - The Product 16:44 - Competitive Edge 25:30 - Design Decisions & Market Strategy 35:09 - Current Status & Future Milestones 40:30 - Challenges of First Orbital Launch 43:37 - French and European Competition 52:32 - Global Space Market 55:16 - Quick Fire Questions  57:30 - Vision for Latitude 58:27 - What’s next for Rocket Innovation? 01:00:24 - Sci-Fi Favorites   🔗 Connect with Stan on LinkedIn: 🤝Stanislas Maximin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/stanislas-maximin/   🔗 Follow us: 🏠Website : https://www.e2mc.space/ 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelrottgen/ 🌐Instagram - https://instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇  Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓 https://www.edx.org/course/new-space- Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/

Ariel Ekblaw is an MIT aero-astro engineer who founded the MIT Media Lab Space Exploration Initiative, and developed a new technique to build large-scale space structures. She now runs the Aurelia Institute, a non-for-profit dedicated to building humanity’s future in space and the Aurelia Foundry, a space-focused VC fund. We talk about all of these things in this episode. Enjoy!   🕰️ Timestamps:  00:00 - Introduction 01:47 - Ariel’s Background 06:07 - Self-Assembling Space Structures 10:44 - Applications of Space Real Estate 22:45 - Balancing Form and Function  25:13 - Vision for Aurelia Foundry 26:54 - Promising Sectors for Investment 33:12 - Unexplored Space Manufacturing Use-cases 35:40 - Future of Space Urbanism 38:34 - Challenges and Concerns in Space  41:29 - Recurrent Thoughts on Space 43:29 - Sci-Fi Favorites   🔗 Follow us: 🏠Website : https://www.e2mc.space/ 🤝🏻LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/company/space-business-podcast/ 🌐Socials: https://linktr.ee/spacebusinesspodcast     🔗 Follow Raphael: 🔷LinkedIn -  https://www.linkedin.com/in/raphaelrottgen/ 🌐Instagram - https://.instagram.com/raphael_space/  ◇  Twitter/X - https://x.com/RaphaelE2MC   To Learn more about Space & the Space Economy: "To Infinity" – Raphael’s Revised Introduction to the Space Economy This book provides an insightful look into the space economy, its current trends, and future opportunities. 📚 https://a.co/d/6jIQ2LO  edX/EPFL's Space Economy MOOC This course offers a detailed understanding of the New Space Economy, covering key concepts and market developments. 🎓 https://www.edx.org/course/new-space- Space Business Newsletter 📬 https://spacebusiness.substack.com/