“Dishonorable and Inhumane”

“What was said, when was it said, and who was observing the operation as it was ongoing?” These questions are top of mind this week for Todd Huntley, Director of Georgetown’s National Security Law Program and a former active-duty Judge Advocate for the Navy. He joins Mary and Andrew to lend his unique expertise to what the Washington Post reported as a “kill them all” order from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. This order reportedly led to a second strike, killing two remaining survivors and, in Huntley’s view, violating the laws of naval warfare and international law, which “give a protected status to shipwrecked personnel.” Mary and Andrew then take a moment to reflect on the tragic shooting of two National Guard members last week and an appellate court ruling affirming a lower court finding that Alina Habba’s appointment as acting US Attorney in New Jersey was unlawful.Further reading: Todd Huntley’s interview in The New Yorker: The Legal Consequences of Pete Hegseth’s “Kill Them All” Order. A former military judge on the Trump Administration’s contradictory—and likely unlawful—justifications for its Caribbean bombing campaign.Here is the original reporting on the 2nd strike by the Washington Post: Hegseth order on first Caribbean boat strike, officials say: Kill them all.  Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Rachel Maddow’s new series lays bare one of the most shocking decisions in American history. It’s story that reveals how an executive order authorizing the mass roundup of innocent Japanese Americans came to be, the powerful players who engineered it, and the burn order that tried to erase it from history.Stay right here to listen to a special preview of “Rachel Maddow Presents: Burn Order.” And for the full episode, search for “Burn Order” and follow the show. Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Amid an abundance of legal issues Mary and Andrew are keeping tabs on, this episode begins with the dismissal of the cases against both James Comey and Letitia James over the unlawful appointment of interim U.S. attorney Lindsey Halligan. The co-hosts work through the judge's decision before reviewing some of the procedural missteps made by Halligan in the Comey case. Next comes the news that the Pentagon is investigating Senator Mark Kelly over a video he and other lawmakers made assuring military personnel they are not obligated to follow illegal orders. As Andrew notes, “Isn't that the law? And isn't that what a president and the head of the Department of Defense want?” And last up, Andrew and Mary touch on a double standard over redistricting efforts, as the Justice Department sues California under a pretense of racial gerrymandering, while notably refraining from leveling similar challenges to Texas’ redistricting plans. Further reading/watching:Here is the Washington Post piece Mary and Andrew referred to: White House blew past legal concerns in deadly strikes on drug boats.WATCH: Here is the video from Sen. Kelly and others: We want to speak directly to members of the Military and the Intelligence Community... Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

"Rachel Maddow Presents: Burn Order" is the story of one of the most shocking decisions in American history: the executive order to target and round up innocent citizens, Japanese Americans, at the outbreak of World War II. This six-episode narrative podcast will examine and shed new light on how that policy came to be, who was behind it, who attempted to stop it, and the heroism needed to end the policy for good. Listen to the trailer here and search for “Burn Order” to follow the show. The first two episodes drop December 1st.  Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This past weekend — after months of deflection from the Trump administration — came a sudden tone shift from President Trump himself, who urged House Republicans to support a measure compelling the Justice Department to release the Epstein files. Mary and Andrew begin here, noting that Trump could just as easily release the files himself without a vote. Next, they review an order to release all grand jury material in James Comey’s case, after the judge blasted the Justice Department for potential misconduct. And before wrapping up, Mary and Andrew head to the latest in the JGG case and Judge Boasberg’s contempt proceeding, after a district court ruled to allow the case before him to proceed.  Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

“Leave aside the cruelty of not giving these funds out,” Andrew says, reflecting on the SNAP benefits case now before the Supreme Court. “What does it say that we're not prioritizing hunger as an issue?” Then, Mary brings listeners up to speed on the dizzying chain of events since Friday and where the SNAP case stands, even as the Senate and House appear to be moving towards reopening the government. And in honoring Veterans Day, Mary and Andrew dig into several issues affecting service members, including the latest filing in Trump v Illinois, and how to think about the term "regular forces", plus Judge Immergut’s final order prohibiting the National Guard deployment in Portland. And finally, Just Security’s co-editor in chief, Tess Bridgeman, joins to analyze what the law says— and doesn’t say-- about blowing up boats in international waters without a clear justification or congressional authorization.Further reading: Judge Wolf’s piece in The Atlantic: Why I Am Resigning. A federal judge explains his reasoning for leaving the bench.Just Security’s collection of information around the boat strikes: Collection: U.S. Lethal Strikes on Suspected Drug TraffickersWant to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The Supreme Court’s landmark decision granting presidential immunity for official acts has reverberated in unprecedented ways since its issuance. One consequence, as Mary and Andrew note in their recent New York Times essay, is that rather than “preventing the weaponization of prosecutions, the court has unleashed it.” The co-hosts begin here, offering insights into the ongoing prosecutions of James Comey, Letitia James and the suspension of two assistant U.S. attorneys in DC. Next, they move to some updates on the National Guard domestic deployments, as several cases wind their way through the courts. And rounding out this episode, Mary and Andrew turn to the litigation around SNAP benefits and preview Wednesday’s tariff argument before the Supreme Court.Further Reading:Here is Mary and Andrews’ New York Times Essay: How the Supreme Court Paved the Way for Revenge ProsecutionsAnd as Mary and Andrew discussed, note the difference between the government's first Sentencing Memorandum in the Taylor Franklin Taranto case compared with the second Sentencing Memo.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The bulldozing of the East Wing of the White House late last week was shocking to much of the nation, Mary and Andrew included. They begin there with concerns, not only about preserving its rich history, but the ethical and legal questions that arise from the president using private donations to fund this ballroom build, and how the Anti-Deficiency Act might apply. Next, an update on National Guard deployments in the California case and the 9th Circuit’s issue of a temporary stay in Portland as they consider an en banc review. And last up, the boat strikes keep coming in the Caribbean -- and now in the Pacific, as the president continues to escalate tensions. Mary and Andrew address the thorny legal issues at play when the U.S. military kills suspected traffickers in international waters.A note to listeners: Since this episode was recorded, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced another set of boat strikes in the Pacific ocean that killed 14 people. Further reading: Here is the Letter from several Democratic Senators raising concerns about donations to the ballroom that Mary and Andrew spoke about. Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Mary and Andrew begin this week with the latest in the Trump administration’s attempt to send National Guard troops into American cities. From the 9th Circuit comes a 2-1 decision lifting a lower court’s temporary block on deployments into Portland, Oregon. Plus: the government has asked the Supreme Court to weigh in on the use of National Guard troops in Chicago. Mary and Andrew analyze the legal repercussions of both, then move to reporting on a Trump administration promise to betray U.S. informants in order to secure a prison deal with El Salvador. And while a week feels like a year these days, the co-hosts review both John Bolton’s indictment last Thursday and James Comey’s recent motion to dismiss his case based on vindictive and selective prosecution. Before wrapping up this week, Mary and Andrew take a beat on last week’s oral arguments before the Supreme Court in Louisiana v Calláis that dealt directly with the Voting Rights Act and whether redrawing districts can be used to remedy disenfranchising voters in Louisiana.Further Listening/Reading: Here is Andrew’s conversation with former Special Counsel Jack Smith at an event at UCL in London: The State of the United States: A Conversation with Jack SmithHere is the reporting from The Washington Post Mary and Andrew spoke about: Rubio promised to betray U.S. informants to get Trump’s El Salvador prison deal.Want to listen to this show without ads? Sign up for MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

On October 8, 2025, President Trump deployed the Texas National Guard to the Chicago area – marking yet another instance of military force being used domestically under his leadership. This follows earlier deployments of federal troops to states like California and Oregon. These actions point to a deeply troubling pattern: the use of U.S. military forces – trained to defend the nation from foreign threats – against its own citizens. Mary McCord, Executive Director of the Institute for Constitutional Advocacy and Protection and a Visiting Professor of Law at Georgetown University Law Center, joins WITHpod to discuss the legal and ethical implications of this alarming trend – and what it means for democracy. Sign up for MS NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen to this show and other MS podcasts without ads. You'll also get exclusive bonus content from this and other shows. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.