How Metalab does design-led product management with Megan O'Rourke - Head of Product @ Metalab

I’m joined by Megan, Executive Director of Product Management at MetaLab, who brings nearly a decade of experience working across dozens of products and teams.In this conversation, we cut through the noise and get to the fundamentals: alignment, communication, prioritization, problem-solving, and understanding users at a deep level. If you’ve ever wondered what truly defines great product managers, regardless of the environment they’re in, this episode is packed with clarity, insight, and some incredibly practical wisdom.🎙️ Podcast Summary — Key Points + Time-Stamped Breakdown00:00–02:30 — Intro & Megan’s Background02:30–05:20 — What Metalab Does (Design-Led Philosophy)05:20–08:45 — What “Design-Led” Really Means08:45–10:00 — Design as Differentiation10:00–13:10 — What Product Management Looks Like Inside a Design Agency13:10–15:30 — Agency PM vs. In-House PM15:30–19:30 — Why Clients Hire Metalab (4 Main Use Cases)19:30–23:20 — How AI Is Changing Client Needs23:20–27:00 — The Underrated Challenges of Adding AI to Existing Products27:00–29:30 — Pushing Back on AI Hype (Role of an Agency)29:30–30:45 — Closing + How to Contact MetalabGet in touch with Metalab

🎙️ Episode Title:How Klaviyo is Redefining B2C CRM, Services, and AI with Grant Deken🧑‍💼 Guest:Grant Deken – Head of Product, Klaviyo Services📅 Episode Overview:In this episode of Lessons in Product Management, host John Fontenot sits down with Grant Deken, Head of Product at Klaviyo Services, to explore how Klaviyo is reimagining customer relationships in the B2C space. From the convergence of marketing and service to the real-world implications of GenAI in product development, this conversation dives deep into the future of product management, CRM, and AI-driven customer experience.🧵 Topics Covered:What Klaviyo is and how it's expanding beyond marketing into customer serviceThe philosophy behind building stronger B2C relationships through CRMBalancing qualitative and quantitative data for better product decisionsHow Grant’s experience as a founder and marketer shapes his product leadershipThe transformational role of AI in product design, development, and serviceReal-world use cases and lessons from integrating GenAI at KlaviyoAdvice for aspiring product managers entering the field todayConnect with GrantLearn more about KlaviyoCheck out openings at Klaviyo Careers

🎙 Episode SummaryHost: John FontenotTopic: How to stop sales teams from selling vaporware (promising unbuilt features)💡 Core ProblemSales teams often promise features that don't yet exist (a.k.a. vaporware) to close deals. This creates chaos for product and engineering, derails the roadmap, and sets poor expectations with customers.🧩 Why It HappensLack of vision and strategy at the leadership level causes misalignment between product, marketing, and sales.Without clear guidance on:Who the ideal customer isWhat value the product provides...…sales operate independently and promise features reactively.Sales are under intense pressure to close deals and may overpromise to hit quotas.✅ The Upstream FixFounders and product leaders must define a clear vision and strategy, including:Product strategy (value prop, differentiation)Go-to-market strategy (target customer, positioning)Enablement is key: Marketing and product must empower sales to recognize good vs. bad-fit prospects.🛠 Tactical, Downstream SolutionWhen a feature is promised post-sale:Don’t drop everything to build it.Ask to talk to the customer to understand the why behind the request.Reframe the conversation with sales:“Let’s explore the real need and maybe we can deliver something better that helps you close more future deals.”Collaborate to design a more effective, differentiated solution.Bring customers into the process: this creates partnership, not just transaction.⚠️ Contracts often include promised features that are never built and unless the customer feels misled or cheated, they’re rarely enforced.🤝 Building a Healthier ProcessEstablish a norm where product gets involved before a feature is promised.Sales can say:“That sounds doable. Can we loop in our product team to better understand your goals?”If your org values honesty and customer success, this approach will resonate.If not, it may be a sign to consider other opportunities.💬 Final ThoughtsYou can shift from feeling powerless as a PM to becoming a true strategic partner.This approach builds trust with both sales and customers.Ethical, aligned organizations will benefit from this collaboration.

In this episode, Shobhit Chugh, former Google PM and founder of Intentional Product Manager, shares practical strategies for moving beyond execution and becoming a standout product leader—even when you don’t have formal authority or a supportive manager.🔑 Key Takeaways1. Don’t Mistake Productivity for ProgressJust being busy doesn’t mean you’re growing.Like Amazon’s press release approach, define what you want to be known for before the next review cycle.Align your work to that vision and offload or eliminate tasks that don’t serve it.2. Influence > DelegationProduct managers can’t “delegate” in the traditional sense.Find teammates who want to own tasks you shouldn’t be doing—for their own growth.Example: Shobhit handed off API spec writing to an engineer aiming to become a PM.3. Make the Strategic UrgentBlock time doesn’t protect strategic work—deadlines do.Make public commitments (e.g., “I’ll present this strategy next Thursday”) to create urgency and accountability.4. Think in Terms of LeverageFocus on high-leverage activities like:Continuous customer research (not just during discovery phases).Repeated communication of long-term vision.Building visibility with stakeholders and leadership.5. Avoid Common Mindset TrapsDon’t assume company red tape is immovable—often it’s just unchallenged hearsay.Overwhelm is emotional, not factual. Audit your time and challenge false constraints.6. Develop an “Angle of Mastery”Instead of a generic “10-year B2B PM,” position yourself based on specific problems you consistently solve.Example: One client branded themselves as the “friction eliminator” in complex B2B platforms.7. Build Your BrandIn a competitive market, being the “obvious hire” is essential.Build visibility on platforms like LinkedIn. Share your thinking, frameworks, and customer insights.Join Shobhit on your journey to product leadership at Intentional Product Manager

🔑 Summary:In this insightful conversation, Daria Love unpacks the often-blurred boundaries between product marketing and product management. She shares practical frameworks for collaboration, the importance of go-to-market (GTM) roadmaps, and how product managers and marketers can set each other (and the product) up for success. The episode is packed with strategic and tactical takeaways for PMs looking to deepen partnerships with product marketers.⏱️ Key Topics & Timestamps:01:45 – Daria’s BackgroundDaria shares her 14+ years in B2B SaaS and how she found her niche in product marketing.03:39 – Her Favorite Area in PMMGo-to-market strategy and product launches—why she loves the unpredictable, cross-functional work.06:22 – AI and RepositioningThe impact of market waves like AI on positioning and the tension between PM and PMM around messaging.07:55 – Dual Roadmaps: Product vs. GTMDaria advocates for separate product and GTM roadmaps to avoid unrealistic launch expectations.10:51 – Internal Stakeholder CommunicationClarifying responsibilities between PMs and PMMs when communicating launch plans internally.12:34 – Product Adoption OwnershipWhy adoption is a shared responsibility and how PMMs help segment, enable, and message for different audiences.17:04 – Avoiding Siloed Customer ResearchCollaboration between PM, PMM, and CS when interviewing customers, collecting feedback, or creating case studies.22:35 – The Importance of SegmentationDaria and the host dive into how segmentation influences prioritization, measurement, and strategy.26:42 – Building for the Wrong CustomersA cautionary tale: companies evolving past SMB but still building for them.30:08 – Releases vs. LaunchesDaria breaks down tactical coordination between code readiness and marketing readiness.33:24 – Early Involvement in the RoadmapHow PMs can benefit from involving PMMs at the ideation stage for better market alignment.36:51 – Code Is Only 30% of the WorkWhy launch readiness requires internal training, customer education, and coordinated campaigns.40:07 – Risks of Premature Feature ReleasesReleasing to production without internal enablement can erode trust and hinder adoption.44:12 – Empathy for Internal PartnersPMs must support and enable internal teams like they do engineers to ensure successful product rollouts.

🎙️ Guest: Irene Yu Founder & CEO of SkipLevel – a company helping PMs become more technical without needing to code.Skiplevel article on how AI is changing the PM role🔑 Key Topics & Timestamps[00:00 - 02:25] Irene's BackgroundIrene shares her transition from software engineer to starting SkipLevel.[02:26 - 04:45] Identifying the Technical GapsHer early software development experience revealed a lack of technical knowledge in PMs which created communication issues with engineers.[04:46 - 07:15] Why PMs Should Learn Tech FundamentalsShe explains how better technical understanding helps PMs ask better questions and write clearer requirements.[07:16 - 10:30] PMs Don’t Need to Code, but…Irene stresses PMs don’t need to be coders, but they should understand system architecture, APIs, databases, etc.[10:31 - 13:20] Creating SkipLevelIrene talks about how she turned her insights into a business – a learning platform that bridges the tech gap for PMs.[13:21 - 16:40] Common Challenges for PMsShe highlights issues like vague communication with devs and over-reliance on engineering for feasibility assessments.[16:41 - 20:00] How SkipLevel WorksOverview of the course structure – from foundational topics to applied learning on APIs and backend logic.[20:01 - 24:15] Advice for PMsIrene encourages curiosity, asking “how” and “why” behind technical choices, and building confidence through structured learning.[24:16 - End] Final ThoughtsImportance of continuous learning, especially in bridging gaps between business and tech for better product outcomes.

Summary:In this episode of Lessons in Product Management, John discusses the importance of developing into a T-shaped product manager — someone who has deep expertise in one area but broad knowledge across many disciplines. He explains how the expectations of PMs are evolving, particularly with the rise of generative AI, and gives tactical advice on building a career growth roadmap.Timestamps:00:09 – Introduction to the episode and topic.00:23 – What is a T-shaped PM? (Depth and breadth explained)01:10 – Defining the core responsibility of a PM: creating customer value that drives business objectives.02:00 – Key PM tasks: Working with teams, getting buy-in, prioritizing, synthesizing information.03:26 – Areas PMs can go deep in, and the need for broad competency across adjacent fields.03:57 – Technical competency: Importance for PMs without technical backgrounds (mention of Skip Level course).04:41 – Gaining competence in UX and research.04:58 – Understanding go-to-market functions: marketing, sales, customer success, and product marketing.05:30 – Importance of data and analytics skills: SQL proficiency, telling stories with data.06:05 – Compliance, legal, and regulatory knowledge for PMs in heavily regulated industries.06:30 – Product ethics: distinguishing between what you can do and what you should do.06:55 – Financial acumen: revenue models, ROI, and understanding value vs. cost.07:43 – PMs are at the center of organizations: Why speaking multiple "languages" matters.08:07 – Embracing a long-term career journey rather than sprinting to learn everything at once.08:35 – How to identify strengths and weaknesses to focus learning efforts.09:23 – Real-world examples of technical and regulatory knowledge gaps PMs need to address.09:42 – The need for PMs to evolve in the era of generative AI and automation.10:34 – The shift away from traditional PM roles focused only on backlogs and PRDs.11:28 – A call to action: Take ownership of your learning to remain competitive.12:08 – Summary: Developing breadth and depth will determine your ability to land jobs, get promoted, and grow.12:44 – John offers coaching help: Listeners can email him for a career growth roadmap session. [email protected]:00 – Closing remarks: "Go out and kill it!"If you're trying to break into product management, come join us at Path2Product to get the experience you need!

Lessons in Product Management - Working & Communicating with EngineersGuest: Paul LunowHost: John DoeEpisode Duration: ~28 min[00:00 - 01:37] IntroductionJohn welcomes Paul Lunow to the podcast.Paul previously hosted John on Product and Cake.Background on Paul’s 20-year career in tech.[01:37 - 04:05] Paul’s Background in Product & EngineeringStarted in Berlin as a web developer, grew an agency to 30 people.Founded Nepos, a startup building a tablet for elderly users.Moved to eBay to experience corporate innovation.Now Head of Innovation & Technology at XU Group, building a B2B learning platform.[04:05 - 06:45] The Role of AI in Learning PlatformsDiscusses AI’s role in education.AI is a tool for augmentation, not a replacement for learning.[06:45 - 10:38] How Product Managers Can Work Better with EngineersThe importance of psychological safety in teams.Engineers need a space to fail, ask questions, and collaborate.Great product managers create environments of trust.[10:38 - 14:46] How Much Tech Knowledge Should a PM Have?PMs don’t need to code but must deeply understand the product.The worst thing: a PM who pretends to know coding but doesn’t use the product.PMs should be the first to log in daily and experience the product firsthand.[14:46 - 18:08] Anti-Patterns: What Drives Engineers CrazyOverworked and stressed PMs create pressure and disconnection.Avoid last-minute changes and unclear expectations.Balance deep work vs. reactive work—don’t just respond to messages all day.[18:08 - 22:26] Managing Workload as a PMSplit work into offense (strategic work) and defense (reactive tasks).Prioritize one key task per day instead of juggling everything at once.Time-box meetings and avoid unnecessary stakeholder discussions.[22:26 - 24:59] How PMs Can Earn Engineers’ TrustBe a sparring partner, not just a requirement-pusher.Never throw engineers under the bus—own decisions as a team.A PM should always support and defend shipped features.[24:59 - 27:36] Final Thoughts & Paul’s WorkMistakes happen—focus on developing strong personal values as a PM.Paul’s new novel about an engineer in Big Tech (available in German).Connect with Paul on LinkedIn.[27:36 - 28:00] Closing RemarksSubscribe to Product and Cake & Lessons in Product Management.See you next week!

Podcast Summary: Megan Shulby on Post-Launch Product ManagementIntroduction & Megan’s Background01:24 - 02:01 – Megan Shulby is introduced; she and John connected via LinkedIn due to her content on underrated product management topics.02:01 - 04:39 – Megan shares her journey from Hollywood entertainment (e.g., The Biggest Loser) to digital marketing, leading to product management. She pursued graduate studies in Information Systems and Marketing to gain technical expertise.04:40 - 05:47 – She discusses how her media background, especially storytelling, plays a role in product management by aligning teams and ensuring a human-centered approach.05:48 - 08:59 – Megan emphasizes the importance of balancing technical and interpersonal skills in product management. While technical foundations are necessary, storytelling is key in aligning stakeholders, engineering, and sales.09:00 - 11:37 – Discussion on the differences between film production and software development, highlighting the lack of post-launch iteration in film versus continuous improvement in software.11:38 - 13:51 – John and Megan discuss how B2B product teams can adopt a controlled introduction approach similar to film test screenings, mitigating reputational risk through phased rollouts.13:52 - 16:24 – Megan explains why post-launch is critical, yet often overlooked. Many PMs shift focus to new features rather than optimizing existing ones.16:25 - 17:22 – Importance of tracking feature success post-launch, ensuring shipped products meet their intended impact.17:23 - 19:46 – Key elements of post-launch management: stakeholder alignment (sales, customer support, finance), defining success metrics, and monitoring usage.19:47 - 22:32 – Importance of measurement and data tracking, with a focus on ensuring product success metrics are defined pre-launch and monitored post-launch.22:33 - 25:49 – Challenges in data collection, particularly in "digital adaptive" businesses transitioning from legacy systems, making it difficult to track clear success indicators.25:50 - End – Key lesson: Not all businesses have perfect data, and product managers must work with what’s available, making informed correlations where necessary.Connect with Megan on LinkedInJoin us on Path2Product to gain hands-on product management experience and build a PM Portfolio to land your first PM job!

Episode Summary:In this episode, John Fontenot explores a thought-provoking topic: the potential consolidation of Product Management (PM) and User Experience (UX) roles due to advancements in Generative AI. He examines the overlap between these two disciplines, the evolving responsibilities of PMs and UX designers, and how organizations may react to increased efficiency through AI.Key Takeaways:1. Understanding the Unique Roles of PM and UX Designer (00:25 - 02:32) PMs focus on business objectives, prioritization, roadmaps, stakeholder management, and go-to-market strategies. UX designers specialize in information architecture, interaction design, prototyping, and usability testing. Despite distinct roles, there is a significant overlap, particularly in customer research, solution ideation, and user flow testing.2. Will AI Eliminate the Need for Both Roles? (02:35 - 06:50) AI can increase efficiency, but does it replace UX or PM roles entirely? Many organizations underutilize UX designers, treating them primarily as visual designers. AI efficiency gains should ideally allow both roles to focus on higher-level strategic work rather than replacing either.3. The Risk of Role Consolidation (06:55 - 09:25) Companies with limited UX investment might see AI as an opportunity to eliminate UX roles, shifting responsibilities to PMs. Similarly, strategic UX professionals who engage with stakeholders and business objectives could replace PMs in certain organizations. PMs focused only on execution (e.g., writing JIRA tickets) may find their roles at risk in the future.4. The Need for Cross-Skilling (09:30 - 13:40) PMs should develop UX skills (e.g., using Figma, understanding usability principles) to become better collaborators and future-proof their careers. UX designers should engage more in strategy, business alignment, and product thinking to solidify their role. Organizations benefit when both disciplines embrace AI efficiencies while maintaining their unique expertise.5. Future-Proofing Your Career (13:40 - End) PMs and UX designers should leverage AI as a tool rather than fearing replacement. Developing cross-functional skills ensures career longevity and adaptability. A collaborative approach leads to better business outcomes and personal career growth.Final Thoughts:John concludes by urging PMs and UX designers to embrace AI-driven efficiencies while strengthening their core competencies. By adapting and evolving, professionals in both fields can safeguard their careers and contribute more effectively to their organizations.Resources Mentioned: Interaction Design Foundation Courses Path2ProductConnect with Us: LinkedIn: John Fontenot Twitter: @productfont Instagram: @product.fontThank you for listening! If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review.