Antitrust Woodstock: Google and Meta Go to Court

Today, we go courtside at two landmark tech antitrust trials unfolding in the DC District Court: the Department of Justice’s remedy hearing against Google, and the Federal Trade Commission’s monopolization case targeting Meta (Facebook). David and Matt speak with two lawyers and antitrust experts Laurel Kilgore and Brendan Benedict who are covering the trials. The Google case is all about what punishment fits the crime after they were found guilty of monopolizing search - should they have to sell off Chrome? Meanwhile, the Meta trial is digging into whether the company crushed competition by gobbling up Instagram and WhatsApp.The fact that these high-stakes antitrust cases are happening in the midst of all the political chaos may represent the system actually working and the rule of law reining in corporate power. Check out Brendan's coverage of the Meta trial at Big Tech On Trial.

Spurred on by Trump, Covid, and climate change, leaders are taking a more hands-on approach to shaping markets that would be seen as impossible a few years ago—but as our guest today argues, this kind of marketcraft is actually a long American tradition. Today, Matt and David welcome Chris Hughes, one of Facebook's founders, to the show to talk about his new book Marketcrafters. The book demolishes the myth that government and the free market were ever truly separate entities and examines the oft-forgotten stories of how policymakers on both sides of the aisle have used their power to craft markets to both good and bad ends.This week also marks the beginning of the FTC's trial against Meta, an action Chris called for back in 2019 in The New York Times. We get Chris's take on the trial, plus a dispatch from Matt, who has been watching the proceedings go down at the courthouse. To learn about Chris's new book Marketcrafters, check out his Substack: https://chrishughes749530.substack.comRead Chris's 2019 op-ed calling for Facebook to be broken up: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/opinion/sunday/chris-hughes-facebook-zuckerberg.html

Ever wonder what it's like to take on Google with a tiny government team?  In this episode David and Matt are back with part two of their interview with Jonathan Kanter, who until recently led the DOJ's antitrust team.  Kanter doesn't hold back, sharing what really happens when you sue tech giants, meatpackers, and ticket monopolies while working with government resources (read: not much). He talks about the challenges, the courtroom drama, and even brings some laughs to the table—somehow Groucho Marx glasses get involved! It's a fascinating insider look at fighting corporate power from someone who's actually been in the room. 

Since taking office in January, Trump has issued several executive orders targeting major Democratic-aligned law firms, revoking their security clearances and threatening the government contracts of their clients. These law firms are among the "big law" firms that not only wield a great deal of money and power in Washington but also play a significant role in the political establishments of both parties. In this episode, Matt and David deconstruct how big law works with Jonathan Kanter, former head of the Antitrust Division of the Justice Department and a former partner at a big law firm. They discuss how these firms make their money, how they became so deeply enmeshed in our politics, and the consequences of Trump's actions, including the chilling effect they are having and the potential for a new way of organizing the Democratic Party. This is part 1 of a 2 part episode with Jonathan Kanter, next week we discuss his work at the Antitrust Division, and the future of anti-monopoly policy. 

Why is it that Walmart can sell bananas for less than what an independent grocer pays for it wholesale? In this episode, David and Matt expose how major retailers like Walmart and Dollar Stores use their sheer size to strong-arm suppliers into giving them special deals—while smaller, independent grocers are stuck paying higher prices. They talk to Randy Arceneaux, CEO of Affiliated Foods, and antitrust lawyer Chris Jones about how this system is not only unfair but likely illegal under the long-ignored Robinson-Patman Act, which bans price discrimination. From grocery wholesalers forced to “subsidize” Walmart, to toilet paper and pet food shortages that only seem to affect smaller stores, to how credit card fees hit independents much harder, this episode unpacks how monopolistic practices are reshaping the grocery business—and why the fight to fix it is heating up.

On March 18th, the White House sent a letter to the two democratic commissioners at the FTC that they had been fired. Clear Supreme Court precedent reinforces that FTC commissioners cannot be fired at-will by the executive. So what happens next? Today on the show Matt and David talk to one of those commissioners, Alvaro Bedoya, about his attempted firing. They discuss the context, consequences, and legal precedent of what's happening at the FTC, along with Trump's potential goals, the importance of the commission's work, and the uncertain future of an agency in crisis.

How did Silicon Valley's ideology go from utopian dreams to self serving power grabs? David and Matt dive into the power dynamics of Big Tech with author, activist, and anti-monopoly advocate Cory Doctorow. They explore how Silicon Valley’s early ideals of openness and innovation gave way to corporate dominance, leading to what Doctorow calls “enshitification”—the systematic decay of platforms as they prioritize profits over users. The conversation unpacks the monopolistic strategies of giants like Amazon and Google, the erosion of competition through regulatory capture, and the role of interoperability in breaking Big Tech’s grip. Check out more of Cory's writing and his new book Picks and Shovels, on his website.

Are Elon Musk's efficiency strategies brilliant or reckless? David and Matt explore this question with procurement expert Rich Ham, CEO of FineTune, who reveals what efficiency really means in large organizations. They discuss how companies often waste money through  inefficient buying of complex services, Rich explains how slashing budgets isn't always the smartest way to save. Using comparisons to the movie "Office Space," they examine how  how procurement teams are stretched thin, and how suppliers take advantage of the lack of oversight. They then turn their attention to Musk's strategies at DOGE, questioning whether drastic cuts are the best path to savings or if they might lead to unintended and costly consequences.

What does it look like when government actually works for the people? Matt and David explore this question with Lina Khan, whose groundbreaking tenure as FTC Chair rewrote the playbook for federal agencies. Khan details how she transformed an understaffed agency into the spearhead of a governance revolution - confronting corporate giants, championing consumer rights, and proving that government can be a powerful force for positive change. Their conversation offers a window into a transformative moment in American governance, where old assumptions about corporate power are being challenged and new possibilities are emerging.

When it comes to utilities - why are we paying so much for service that can be so unreliable? In this episode, Matt and David expose how a small group of economists and some untrustworthy models have allowed utility companies to inflate rates and spend on dubious projects. Former utility executive Mark Ellis helps explain the "scam" that has misled regulators and advocates, leading to excessive profits for investor-owned utilities at our expense. They break down utility regulation, how rates are set, and the surprising difference in rate increases between investor-owned and public utilities. Prepare to demand some serious reform!Read Mark's report: Rate of Return Equals Cost of Capital: A Simple, Fair Formula to Stop Investor-Owned Utilities from Overcharging the Public