Bernardo Kastrup and Shinzen Young on Mysticism and Science

This is an exploration between Shinzen Young and Bernardo Kastrup on mysticism, science, and liberation. Shinzen Young is a mindfulness teacher, the author of the Science of Enlightenment, and is the co-director of the SEMA lab at the University of Arizona. Bernardo Kastrup is an analytic philosopher, computer engineer, metaphysical idealist, and executive director of the Essentia Foundation. Essentia Foundation: https://www.essentiafoundation.org/Shinzen Young: https://www.shinzen.org/Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_Podcast  Donations: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/lucasperryVideo episode: https://youtu.be/syb-oSaDZZE?si=ShNPJXXmuEBHGVDCTwitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerryTimestamps: 0:00 Intro2:46 Can philosophy, science, and mysticism align? 7:39 What does liberation consist of? 11:38 Bernardo’s path to insight 17:43 The paradox of cultivated improvement vs. nothing to improve 31:16 Blocking ourselves from life’s teaching 36:01 Did Spinoza have mystical experience? 48:58 The truth is not vulnerable 51:29 Training people in the spirit of science 1:06:59 Reflecting on Bernardo’s insight 

Jordan Myska Allen is CEO and founder of The Relateful Company, an organization focused on building inner peace and interconnection through truth and love. At the heart of their approach is Relatefulness, a practice emphasizing present-moment relating, construct awareness, and non-duality. Jordan is also a practicing life coach, the author of A Beautiful Apocalypse, and a long-time practitioner of A Course in Miracles.The Relateful Company: https://www.relateful.com/Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_PodcastDonations: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/lucasperryVideo episode: https://youtu.be/9ENdAlvkOQ0Twitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerryTimestamps: 0:00 Intro3:24 Switching between the ultimate and the relative5:48 Everything is either love or a call for love7:52 ACIM doesn’t comment on the world of form 9:21 Fundamental existential guilt 11:58 Leaning into what we flinch from 14:31 What it means to flinch from God20:12 Transcending but including all that is25:20 The opening quote of ACIM26:36 What does it mean that “the world is an illusion?” 33:15 What’s so good about choosing fear over love? 36:43 The choice between love and fear, and coming to surrender42:40 What is forgiveness? 54:27 Clarifying perfect forgiveness 1:00:32 The Diamond Sutra 1:05:24 The gateless gate 1:12:45 Key takeaways 1:19:17 Final thoughts

Federico Faggin is an engineer and physicist who invented the world's first commercial micro processor, the Intel 4004. He is also the founder of the Federico and Elvia Faggin Foundation which is dedicated to the scientific study of consciousness.Faggin Foundation: http://www.fagginfoundation.orgJoin the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_Podcast Donations: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/lucasperryVideo episode: https://youtu.be/7HgXwbIMRscTwitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerryTimestamps:0:00 Intro2:54 Federico’s awakening experience12:36 Consciousness, free will, and identity 18:09 Truth and freedom from suffering21:55 “The one” that seeks to know itself26:22 How “the one” becomes the many28:55 “The one” and classic/quantum physics41:51 Fundamental entities with free will, identity, and consciousness 44:15 Consciousness needs classical memory to store experience46:06 Was the Big Bang a free will choice56:06 The reality of the irreducible 1:00:39 Semantic space 1:04:41 Methods of inquiring into symbolic and semantic space1:11:17 Will everything eventually converge? 1:14:58 Taking semantic reality seriously 1:21:13 Near death experiences 1:23:33 Taking experience seriously 1:29:28 Quantum information as a representation of inner experience1:33:03 What do we do given this understanding? 1:35:37 We are not machines1:42:15 Negating the reality of the soul1:46:08 Meaninglessness and dynamic truth 1:51:29 Goodbyes

Bruce Tift is a licensed Psychotherapist and the author of Already Free: Buddhism Meets Psychotherapy on the Path of Liberation. He is a long-time practitioner of Vajrayana Buddhism and was a student of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche.Bruce's website: https://www.brucetift.com/ Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_PodcastDonations: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/lucasperryVideo episode: https://youtu.be/cESdYTKz0dMTwitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerryTimestamps: 0:00 Intro3:09 What is freedom? 4:39 What is conscious participation in open awareness?6:47 Is this the fruitional view? 9:09 The western therapeutic perspective of healing core wounds11:18 How do the fruitonal view and the developmental view relate? 14:31 Commiting to experience sense of problem without trying to resolve it19:12 The path of Vajrayana Buddhism29:42 Belief is a substitute for groundlessness 34:21 I give myself permission to never experience what I most want in life38:13 What is non-divided reality?43:29 Freedom is not synonymous with positive feelings47:47 Neurosis is always a substitute for experiential intensity 51:35 Falling through the air with no parachute52:25 Challenging our identification with hope55:17 Bruce’s gradual shift towards freedom58:00 Being profoundly limited1:03:03 Asking if what you most want is available right now1:04:44 One taste 1:05:54 Impermanence and dependent origination1:10:27 Enlightenment 1:13:24 Trying to experience no-self can be motivated by fundamental aggression to experience1:15:04 Maintaining a center through problem maintaining1:18:53 The function of neurosis1:26:00 What’s fundamentally disturbing about our experience? 1:33:05 How does groundlessness fit into freedom and nirvana? 1:34:33 Do we know anything? 1:39:05 What does it mean to be “Already Free?” 1:43:24 Neurosis is a clever way to pretend to ourselves we’re addressing our life while guaranteeing nothing happens 1:47:08 What’s always available?1:48:08 Final words from Bruce1:50:30 Outro

Andres Gomez Emilsson is the director of research at the Qualia Research Institute where he works to build a science of consciousness to improve the lives of sentient beings. His work at QRI ranges from psychedelic theory, to neurotechnology development, and mapping the computational properties of consciousness. Qualia Research Institute: https://qri.org/Andres' Twitter: https://twitter.com/algekalipsoJoin the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_PodcastDonations: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/lucasperryVideo episode: https://youtu.be/xJzBjBo24g8Twitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerryTimestamps:0:00 Intro2:13Are current AI systems conscious? 4:10 Marr's levels of analysis 9:16 Searle’s Chinese room thought experiment 20:53 The binding problem 35:25 Computers do not leverage the EM field to do computationally useful things 46:46 Equanimity and the sense of self 53:36  Binding is frame invariant and provides computational benefits 56:41 Avoiding strong emergence 58:37 Sidestepping the hard problem of consciousness59:03 Avoiding epiphenomenalism1:01:07 Being compatible with modern scientific world picture 1:04:56 Experiments for testing to see if electromagnetic fields of human brain form unified global topology 1:07:14 Merging your consciousness field topology with someone else’s 1:14:07 Summary of if current AI models are conscious 1:16:55 Doing and undoing the topological twist of consciousness 1:24:56 What it’s like to be the field before topological segmentation 1:27:43 Why is there something rather than nothing?1:32:04 Does valence add up to zero? 1:35:42 The symmetry theory of valence 1:39:20 Does the static field of consciousness have an experience? 1:41:07 Grounding ethics in open individualism and valence realism 1:44:57 Clarifying ethical thought experiments with a science of consciousness 1:47:33 Why does valence exist?1:48:45 What does it mean for the field to tear? 1:50:51 Infinite universes through the fracturing of nothing 1:53:20 Would replacing humans with happy AIs solve the alignment problem? 1:55:28 If AIs don’t leverage field topology for computation, does that null the alignment problem? 1:58:30 Non-linear wave computing 2:01:08 How does the enteric nervous system fit into sentience? 2:03:49 Why is the electromagnetic field especially relevant to consciousness 2:05:25 Cosmological qualia 2:07:40 Hedonium shockwaves and Andres’ shirt 2:08:32 The perfume “Hedonium Shockwave” by Andres Gomez Emilsson 2:15:47 Using Hedonium Shockwave to explore consciousness 2:17:46 The future of art given the rise of AI models 2:22:42 Final thoughts from Andres2:23:53Where to find and follow Andres

Culum Brown is a professor at Macquarie University where he is a behavioral ecologist studying fish behavior and cognition. He is a long time proponent of fish intelligence and welfare, arguing for interventions to improve the lives of fish. Culum has over 150 research publications and is in the top 2.5% of Research Gate. Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_PodcastDonations: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/lucasperryVideo episode: https://youtu.be/LN6cgNu9QAM Twitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerryTimestamps: 0:00 Intro2:10 Better understanding fish 4:44 Fish learning and memory11:20 Social learning and culture20:56 Cross species relationships: offering backrubs 27:59 Fish participate in predator evaluation together32:57 Knowing their place in the hierarchy 37:18 Cooperating across species to hunt 41:58 Fish accumulate cultural knowledge across generations 43:46 Machiavellian intelligence in fish 46:12 What brain size means 49:04 Tool use and house building 58:14 Intelligence in parrots 59:28 Breadth of fish sensing 1:03:44 Pain in fish and other animals1:14:24 The experience of farmed, wild-caught, lab grown, and pet fish 1:27:58 How fish are caught and killed1:34:19 What do we do given all this suffering? 1:37:58 Policy solutions for fish welfare1:42:43 Can we abolish the biological roots of suffering? 1:49:19 Why did land animals become generally intelligent instead of sea creatures? 1:52:49 Final thoughts from Culum1:54:18 Where to find and follow Culum 

Philip Golabuk is founder of PhilosophyCenter, where he offers philosophical counseling, self-study courses, and LIFECOACH Training. Their mission is to encourage and facilitate the self-work that leads to greater awareness, creative expression, and personal evolution as well as a deeper appreciation for the miracle, mystery, and opportunity of being alive. Philip is a member of the National Philosophical Counseling Association, has taught college level philosophy courses, and has worked as part of a community outreach program to inmates in jail and prison. PhilosophyCenter: https://philosophycenter.net/Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_Podcast Donations: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/lucasperryVideo episode: https://youtu.be/ZcOcZ_EZDD8Twitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerryTimestamps: 0:00 Intro1:54 Life principles: Truth and uncertainty 6:50 Life principles: Limitation and responsibility 13:10 Useful questions in self-work 16:40 Being in conflict with your own truth 20:19 Off handed remarks that confess beliefs 23:47 Bottom up and top down self-work 30:29 Accessing and practicing bottom up and top down self-work 35:50 The decisive question: What bad thing happens if I have what I want? 38:18 Willingness being 90% of self-work 44:35 The mind as a good servant but a bad master 50:33 Degrees of certainty, induction, and truth55:05 A perspective on Universal Love, Said The Cactus Person by Scott Alexander 1:04:20 Outro 

Bernardo Kastrup is a metaphysical idealist, arguing that universal phenomenal consciousness is all there ultimately is. He holds a Ph.D. in computer engineering and another in philosophy. Bernardo is also the executive director of the Essentia Foundation. Bernardo's website: https://www.bernardokastrup.com/Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_Podcast Donations: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/lucasperry Video episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaCij4vXwpATwitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerry Timestamps:0:00 Intro2:42 Bernardo’s metaphysics 4:15 What does it mean for something to be a transpersonal mental process10:11 What is it like to be nature at large?12:20 Is the consciousness that underlies the inanimate universe like dust or completely unified? 16:55 How is it that mind at large fragments into particular beings?22:40 How can we remember our original state if it's formless/contentless? 28:39 What is it like to be the field when it’s completely at rest? 32:17 Is there formless or contentless consciousness? 39:25 The great void state43:13 Being and seeing god 45:40 Knowledge without intermediation of a mental model 48:03 The role and place of introspection 52:38 Physicalism robs us of meaning as the entities outside of us are their own ends 56:58 Is there a necessary relationship between truth and freedom from suffering 59:28 What it means to be set free 1:08:50 There is freedom is seeing what you think you are doesn’t exist 1:10:22 Surrender and defeat 1:19:16 Embracing duality and the western background 1:35:40 The importance of suffering 1:47:05 The maturation of religion1:52:45 A spontaneous unfolding can still follow a telos1:56:50 The telos of universal mind2:01:43 Innocence, evil, and the asymmetry between truth and illusion2:12:06 The spirit of our technology and artificial consciousness 2:20:05 The binding problem of consciousness and substrate independence 2:50:30 Testing for consciousness in machines 3:07:35 AGI timelines 3:11:07 Imbuing machines with values 3:08:10 Clarifying intuition pumps for idealism3:18:45 Outro

Roger Thisdell is a long time meditator who over the years has managed to increase his baseline of well-being to a level much higher than the norm. Rodger's mind now features a permanent sense of centerlessness where there is a lack of the sense of an epistemic agent at the center. He aims to help others achieve similar well-being, unperturbability, and freedom from suffering.  Follow Rodger: https://www.rogerthisdell.com/Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_Podcast Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5VYkm1iU0tmbBvJohdTZcv?si=4be5c4df79fc4aa8 ApplePodcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mu/id1640125881Twitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerryTimestamps: 0:00 Intro 3:15 What is suffering? 4:29 What is contraction? 8:12 Why does contraction entail suffering? 9:21 The relationship between truth and freedom10:58 How do we defabricate experience? 13:57 Rodger’s spiritual path 15:21 Practices for defabricating experience 17:37 What are the stages of awakening 18:34 Different paths to the same thing? 24:23 What’s Rodger’s current experience like?29:16 There is only negative valence and its attenuation 35:16 Does taking a bunch of MDMA not add positive valence? 37:35 The void at the center of the soul 39:18 Meditation instructions 46:37 How does insight work? 49:56 Insight practice on the sense of separate self 54:57 The will as a way of maintaining separate self57:55 Cessation, true nature, and neither perception nor non-perception 1:04:35 Practicing the jhanas 1:16:25 Cessation and nirvikalpa samadhi1:19:47 Is the void preferable to highly defabricated consciousness? 1:24:11 How does this all fit into the 21st century? 1:26:40 Using insights from meditation for architecting new minds 1:28:48 Immoral behavior as a failure to see the truth 1:30:23 Where to follow and find out more about Rodger

Philip Golabuk is founder of PhilosophyCenter, where he offers philosophical counseling, self-study courses, and LIFECOACH Training. Their mission is to encourage and facilitate the self-work that leads to greater awareness, creative expression, and personal evolution as well as a deeper appreciation for the miracle, mystery, and opportunity of being alive. Philip is a member of the National Philosophical Counseling Association, has taught college level philosophy courses, and has worked as part of a community outreach program to inmates in jail and prison.  PhilosophyCenter: https://philosophycenter.net/Join the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Mu_Podcast Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5VYkm1iU0tmbBvJohdTZcv?si=4be5c4df79fc4aa8&nd=1ApplePodcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mu/id1640125881Twitter: https://twitter.com/LucasFMPerryTimestamps:0:00 intro 2:03 What is suffering?3:05 How do we turn pain into suffering?4:56 What is resistance? 7:00 How does alignment with truth lead to freedom from suffering? 14:51 Non-local will and our resistance truth 21:25 How do you let go without it being an act of will? 27:08 Allowing unwillingness and how non-resistance shifts problems into solutions 32:20 Deconstructing false belief (bottom-up) and living from the higher-self (top down) 39:15 How are unwitting beliefs released from the top down approach? 42:34 Nirvana and samsara as undivided, and whether suffering is an illusion52:06 Where to find and follow Philip53:00 outro