Growth Beyond the Ladder: Lessons from Beverly Kaye

What can Aristotle teach us about meaningful work today?In this episode, Andrew Soren sits down with Marcel Meyer, professor at the School of Economics and Business at the University of Navarra, to explore how virtue ethics can help us navigate modern leadership and organizational life.Drawing from Aristotle’s concept of eudaimonia (human flourishing), Marcel shares how cultivating character, wisdom, and purpose allows leaders to create workplaces where people thrive individually and collectively.Key TakeawaysVirtue is developed through action and reflection. Ethical character isn’t innate, but built through everyday choices, habits, and feedback that shape who we become at work and in life.Flourishing happens in community. Meaningful work and ethical growth depend on relationships and shared responsibility, not isolation.Leadership is a form of rhetoric. Effective leaders inspire through pathos (empathy), logos (reason), and ethos (character), which aligns emotion, logic, and integrity to create trust and shared purpose.Hope and optimism can be cultivated. Drawing from Positive Organizational Scholarship, Marcel outlines how leaders can foster environments that generate positive cycles of emotion, action, and growth.Why This Episode MattersAristotle may not have written about modern workplaces, but his philosophy offers a timeless framework for understanding what makes work meaningful. Marcel’s perspective bridges ancient wisdom with organizational science, offering leaders practical ways to ground their teams in purpose, integrity, and human connection. This episode is for anyone curious about how moral character and practical wisdom can shape organizations that truly enable people to flourish.About Our GuestMarcel Meyer is a professor at the School of Economics and Business at the University of Navarra, specializing in ethical leadership, organizational behavior, and Aristotelian virtue ethics. His research examines how leadership grounded in virtue and purpose fosters human flourishing within organizations. Marcel’s work integrates philosophy with management practice, spanning topics from executive communication on sustainability to the cultivation of practical wisdom in leaders. A former corporate trainer for companies like Volkswagen and Liebherr, he brings both academic and applied expertise to his study of virtue in business.

What makes people feel they truly matter at work? In this episode, we talk with Dr. Beverly Kaye, a trailblazer in career development, employee engagement, and retention. For more than 50 years, Bev has shown that the small things leaders do, like noticing and naming what they see, can have the biggest impact on whether people grow, feel valued, and choose to stay.In their conversation, Andrew and Bev explore why growth is more than climbing the ladder, how everyday conversations shape engagement, and what it means to lead with an “opportunity minded” approach.Key TakeawaysNoticing creates mattering. Saying out loud what you see in someone is the simplest way to show they matter.Growth is not just up. Careers can be kaleidoscopes, shifting through lateral moves and fresh perspectives.Conversations are retention tools. Stay interviews and everyday check-ins build trust and engagement.Opportunity mindset matters. Leaders and employees can either be opportunity minded or opportunity blinded.Why This Episode MattersMeaningful work isn’t only about the tasks we do, but how others see us and help us grow. Bev’s lifetime of work shows that noticing, mattering, and honest conversations are the foundation of engagement and retention.About Our GuestDr. Beverly Kaye is recognized internationally as one of the most knowledgeable voices on career development, employee engagement, and retention. Her books have become classics for managers and organizations worldwide, offering simple, practical tools for growth and retention that stand the test of time.In the blog, we expand on Kaye’s ideas with more context and examples, including her concept of kaleidoscope careers. Read more here: https://www.eudaimonicbydesign.com/resilience/bev-kaye

This week, we’re celebrating a milestone: the 50th episode of Meaningful Work Matters!Over the past two years, we’ve spoken with more than 50 researchers, thinkers, and practitioners who are reimagining what makes work meaningful.To mark this moment, we are doing something different. Instead of an interview, Andrew shares his own reflections, based on an article co-written with his mentor and friend, Dr. Carol Ryff. Together, they explore what it means to see work not only as a driver of productivity or advantage but also as a moral commitment and a way of reclaiming the communal soul of work.This special solo episode invites you to pause, reflect, and imagine how workplaces can become modern-day polis: moral communities designed for human flourishing.Key TakeawaysAndrew reflects on what it would mean to treat organizations as moral communities, drawing inspiration from Aristotle’s polis.He explores the tension between individual wellbeing and collective flourishing, and why both matter for the future of work.The episode touches on what makes “decent work” a foundation for human thriving, and why organizations cannot ignore it.Andrew shares why the business case for wellbeing is not enough, and what it takes to move beyond metrics into moral purpose.Finally, he considers how the arts and the stories we tell can help us reclaim the deeper soul of work.Why This Episode MattersThis conversation is an invitation for reflection, dialogue, and action. For a deeper dive into the themes Andrew shares in this episode, visit our companion blog.If you have been part of our journey so far, thank you. If you are new, this is a perfect time to start listening. And if something resonates, we would love for you to share it with a friend or colleague and let us know what ideas or stories it sparks for you.

What makes work worth doing? In this episode, Andrew sits down with Jennifer Tosti-Kharas and Christopher Wong Michaelson, co-authors of Is Your Work Worth It? and The Meaning and Purpose of Work. Jennifer is a psychologist and Christopher is a philosopher, and together they bring complementary perspectives to one of the most important questions of our time: how do we define meaningful work, and what are the risks and responsibilities that come with it? Their dialogue touches on everything from the double-edged sword of calling, to the ethical obligations of organizations, to what AI and automation might mean for the future of work.Key TakeawaysMeaningful work is both personal and ethical. It is about how work feels to us, and whether it contributes to the greater good.Calling can be inspiring but also harmful. Leaders must recognize both the promise and the risks.Organizations have real responsibility. Beyond mission statements, they must design jobs and cultures that allow people to thrive.The future of work will test us. From “bullshit jobs” to AI, leaders and employees alike must wrestle with what work should be, not just what it is.Why This Episode MattersConversations about meaningful work often stop at the individual level, but this episode pushes us to think bigger. Leaders and organizations hold real power in shaping whether work supports or undermines human flourishing. At a time when burnout is widespread, purpose is marketed as a recruitment tool, and technology is reshaping jobs, Jennifer and Christopher remind us that meaning is a collective responsibility. For organizations, this means creating conditions where people can thrive without being exploited. For leaders, it means asking not only whether your work feels meaningful, but also whether it contributes to a greater good.About Our GuestsJennifer Tosti-Kharas is the Camilla Latino Spinelli Endowed Term Chair and Professor of Management at Babson College. She researches and teaches about what it means to craft a meaningful career and the risks and rewards of work as a calling.Christopher Wong Michaelson is the Barbara and David A. Koch Endowed Chair in Business Ethics and Academic Director of the Melrose and The Toro Company Center for Principled Leadership at the University of St. Thomas. He also teaches at NYU’s Stern School of Business. A philosopher with decades of experience advising business leaders, Christopher writes and teaches on meaning, purpose, and the ethical responsibilities of work.

What does it really take to understand well-being?In this episode, Andrew Soren speaks with Llewellyn van Zyl, a positive organizational psychologist and data scientist who is rethinking how we measure and design for human flourishing.Llewellyn shares why traditional “top-down” models of well-being often fall short, and introduces a bottom-up, person-centered approach that treats every individual as a unique case. From there, he explains how artificial intelligence and machine learning might help scale these insights, and where we need to be cautious about over-reliance and ethical risks.Key TakeawaysTop-down models have limits. Frameworks like PERMA can’t fully capture cultural differences or personal experiences, and often prescribe “averages” that don’t work for everyone.Bottom-up approaches start with the person. Llewellyn outlined eight principles for understanding well-being as a dynamic, context-dependent process that unfolds uniquely for each individual.AI offers possibilities and pitfalls. Machine learning can help identify unique drivers of well-being and burnout at the individual level, but it also raises concerns around ethics, dependence, and the dehumanization of care.The future of work will require balance. Technology should augment human wisdom, freeing us to focus on the creativity, ethics, and relationships that machines cannot replicate.Why This Episode MattersAs organizations grapple with the well-being of their employees, this conversation offers both a critique of the “one-size-fits-all” approach and a vision for what’s possible when data, AI, and human-centered design come together. It challenges us to think carefully about how we measure what matters, and how to ensure technology supports, rather than replaces, what makes work meaningful.Llewellyn also shares concrete practices and stories, such as why “connection to nature” isn’t universal and how AI can identify signs of burnout in unexpected ways.You can explore these ideas further in our blog here: eudaimonicbydesign.com/resilience/llewellyn-van-zylAbout Our GuestProf. Llewellyn E. van Zyl, PhD, is an award-winning positive organizational psychologist and data scientist. He is a professor at the Optentia Research Unit at North-West University and Chief Solutions Architect at Psynalytics, where he pioneers person-centered, idiographic approaches to employee well-being through advanced analytics and AI. With more than 15 years of consulting experience and over 100 scientific publications, his work is reshaping how organizations understand and support the employee experience.

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, we speak with Lesley-Ann Noel, Dean of Design at OCAD University and author of Design Social Change. They explore how design can be a radical, joyful act of agency that shapes the world we want to live in. From understanding your own positionality to deeply listening to others, Lesley-Ann shares how embracing both joy and anger can fuel social transformation. She also introduces the “abolitionist mindset,” a way of identifying when systems are too harmful to improve incrementally and must be dismantled entirely.Key TakeawaysKnow yourself to create change. Self-awareness is the foundation of meaningful design work. Understanding your values, biases, and lived experiences shapes the questions you ask and the solutions you imagine.Listen beyond empathy. True change requires more than understanding another’s feelings. It calls for co-creation, proximity to the people affected, and attention to the unspoken cues that reveal deeper needs.Adopt the abolitionist mindset when needed. Not all systems can be fixed gradually. Recognizing when something must end entirely can be a catalyst for lasting, equitable change.Balance anger with joy. Anger can be a powerful motivator for action, while joy sustains the energy required to keep going in the face of long-term challenges.Why This Episode MattersWhether you lead a team, manage a project, or simply want to make a difference in your community, Lesley-Ann’s approach to design offers a practical and hopeful roadmap.By combining critical reflection with bold action, she invites us to see ourselves as active participants in shaping a more just and joyful future.About Our GuestLesley-Ann Noel is a Trinidadian design educator and Dean of Design at OCAD University in Toronto, Canada. She is the author of Design Social Change and co-editor of The Black Experience in Design. Her work includes the creation of critical reflection tools such as The Designer’s Critical Alphabet and the Positionality Wheel. Before joining OCAD U, she taught at North Carolina State University, Tulane University, Stanford University, and the University of the West Indies.

In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, host Andrew Soren sits down with Danish philosopher and entrepreneur Morten Albæk, founder of Voluntās and author of One Life: How We Forgot to Live Meaningful Lives. With a career spanning from senior executive roles in banking and wind energy to launching the first firm to measure meaningfulness, Morten brings a rare mix of philosophical depth and business acumen to the question of what it means to live, and work, meaningfully.Together, they explore what Albæk calls the “greatest paradox of our time”: while many metrics of progress are improving globally, our existential well-being is declining. Why is that? And what would it take to reverse the trend?Key TakeawaysWe don’t suffer from a lack of progress, but a lack of pause. Despite global gains in wealth and health, many people report feeling more lonely, stressed, and disengaged than ever. Albæk argues that speed has become a modern god, and without reflection, we mistake noise for the melody of life.Work is not separate from life, but rather, it is life. Albæk calls the idea of “work-life balance” not just misguided but dangerous. Instead, we should strive for what he terms “the perfect imbalance” - an honest acceptance that different roles and contexts in life will always pull us in different directions.Satisfaction and happiness aren’t enough. Albæk distinguishes meaning from other positive emotions: “Meaning is the only emotion that can coexist with dissatisfaction and unhappiness.” That’s what makes it essential to a dignified life.Virtues over values. Albæk challenges the business world’s obsession with corporate “values,” arguing that virtues are moral aspirations we strive toward, not claims we declare.Why This Episode MattersThis conversation invites us to challenge deeply held assumptions about work, life, progress, and productivity. By dismantling the myth of work-life balance and redefining how we measure success, Albæk helps leaders and individuals alike reimagine work as a key site of meaning rather than its opposite.About Our GuestMorten Albæk is a Danish philosopher, author, and founder of Voluntās, the world’s first advisory firm to systematically measure and consult on meaning. He previously served as a senior executive at Danske Bank and Vestas, where he developed global initiatives like WindMade and Wind for Prosperity. Albæk is the author of several best-selling books, and has been named one of the “100 Most Influential CMOs in the World” and one of Fast Company’s “1,000 Most Creative People in Business.”

How can caregiving, especially the kinds we rarely talk about, become a powerful form of leadership?In this episode, Andrew Soren speaks with Terrance L. (T. L.) Boyd, Ph.D., Assistant Professor of Management and Leadership at Texas Christian University.T.L. brings both personal insight and academic rigor to a conversation about non-traditional caregiving. His research explores how responsibilities outside of work, often overlooked or undervalued, can shape the way people lead, connect, and grow. As a scholar deeply committed to representation and equity, T.L. centers the lived experiences of historically marginalized communities in his work and teaching.This conversation is a reminder that people’s lives outside of work often influence their impact inside the workplace. Recognizing that reality opens up new ways to support, include, and empower each other.Key TakeawaysCaregiving is part of professional life: T.L. explains that caregiving responsibilities, especially those outside of traditional roles, often strengthen qualities like empathy, flexibility, and resilience.We need to broaden the definition of caregiving: Workplace systems are usually built with only traditional caregivers in mind. People caring for parents, siblings, or chosen family are often left out of policies and support.Caregiving can lead to growth, not just strain: While it comes with challenges, caregiving can also develop skills that are powerfully applicable in the workplace. These experiences can build the kind of character and emotional intelligence that is otherwise hard to develop on the job.Leaders set the tone: Managers act as “climate engineers.” The way they respond to caregiving disclosures shapes whether people feel safe sharing their realities or choose to stay silent.Why This Episode MattersThis episode encourages us to see caregiving as part of what makes people effective and human at work. It invites leaders to move past assumptions and to notice the invisible responsibilities their people may be carrying. By doing so, they can build more inclusive and supportive workplaces.About Our GuestTerrance L. (T. L.) Boyd, Ph.D. is an Assistant Professor of Management and Leadership at Texas Christian University’s Neeley School of Business. A firm believer that representation matters, his research explores how historically marginalized communities show up in dyadic and group interactions, with a particular focus on emotion and cognition in the workplace.Prior to entering academia, he served as the inaugural director of the Honors College Path Program at the University of Arkansas, a mentoring initiative designed to increase diversity in honors education and graduation. His scholarship seeks to create knowledge that reflects the nuanced realities of those often excluded from mainstream research.T.L. is a co-author of the paper “Out of the Shadows: Bringing Nontraditional Caregiving to the Foreground of Management Research,” which can be found here.Connect with him on LinkedIn and visit the companion blog on our website for deeper insights from this episode.

What does it mean to live, and work, a life worth living?In this episode, Andrew Soren speaks with Dr. Alan Waterman, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at The College of New Jersey and one of the earliest psychologists to empirically distinguish eudaimonia from hedonia.Al shares how a life grounded in self-realization, rather than external rewards or fleeting happiness, can guide our career choices, work orientations, and even our understanding of motivation. Drawing on decades of research and philosophical inquiry, he challenges common assumptions about flow, passion, and the role of virtue in modern work.This conversation explores the connection between identity, calling, and personal fulfillment — and the very real trade-offs people face when trying to design lives (and workplaces) that support eudaimonic well-being.Key TakeawaysWork as a calling vs. work as a job: Al emphasizes that meaningful work often emerges from a sense of intrinsic motivation and resonance, not just external outcomes.Self-realization is the heart of eudaimonia: Rather than pursuing success by others’ standards, individuals thrive when they develop their own unique strengths, values, and potential.Harmonious vs. obsessive passion: Passion isn’t always productive. When intrinsic motivation becomes rigid or consuming, it can lead to burnout instead of fulfillment.Employers should support eudaimonia outside of work: Managers have a role in fostering self-awareness, autonomy, and life satisfaction by supporting employees’ growth in and beyond the workplace.Why This Episode MattersThis episode is a reminder that meaningful work is not one-size-fits-all. Whether you’re navigating a mid-career shift, helping others find their strengths, or designing environments that support well-being, this conversation invites reflection on the values and motivations that shape our professional lives.For managers, it’s a prompt to move beyond performance metrics and ask: how can we support people in realizing their full potential?About Our GuestDr. Alan Waterman is Professor Emeritus of Psychology at The College of New Jersey. With a Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from SUNY Buffalo, his career has centered on understanding what makes life and work worth living.Al’s work blends philosophical and psychological perspectives, and he has authored or edited seven books, including The Best Within Us: Positive Psychological Perspectives on Eudaimonia (APA, 2014).His forthcoming book, Flow Theory Re-Envisioned, is due out from Oxford University Press in Fall 2025.P.S. Want to explore more of Alan Waterman’s thinking? Read the companion blog on our website for deeper insights and resources related to this episode.

What does it take to grow into a new professional identity—especially when the role doesn’t yet feel like your own?In this episode of Meaningful Work Matters, Andrew is joined by Dr. Latika Nirula, Director of the Centre for Faculty Development at the Temerty Faculty of Medicine at the University of Toronto. Latika supports healthcare professionals as they step into the role of educator (often for the first time) and helps them navigate the inner conflict that can arise when their identity doesn’t yet align with their responsibilities.This conversation reflects on the role of storytelling, reflection, and community in shaping how people see themselves. Andrew and Latika also share their own experiences with imposter syndrome and speak candidly about what it feels like to be in a role where you’re still finding your footing.Key TakeawaysTeaching is more than a task. For many, it becomes an identity they grow into over time.Clinical educators often carry a strong sense of who they are as healthcare providers but need support to build confidence in their role as teachers.Imposter syndrome can be a sign that someone is stretching into something new. With the right support, those feelings can lead to growth.Community plays a critical role in how people make meaning of their work. Feeling part of something bigger can help people reconnect to purpose.Reflection and relationship are key to making professional growth feel meaningful and sustainable.Why This Episode MattersMany people take on roles they were never formally trained for. This episode offers a clear look at what helps people build confidence and find meaning when the path feels uncertain. It also highlights the kinds of conversations and communities that make that journey easier.About Our GuestDr. Latika Nirula is an educational psychologist and the Director of the Centre for Faculty Development at the University of Toronto’s Temerty Faculty of Medicine. Her work focuses on coaching, faculty development, and helping clinical educators build their identity and capacity as teachers. She leads initiatives that bring people together through shared reflection and professional community.P.S. Looking to bring more reflection and shared learning into your own team?We’ve outlined one of Latika’s team rituals, called Critical Conversations, in our companion blog post. Check it out here!