Episode 876: Gabby Rich, Lesbian Latter-day Saint, Teacher, Age 28

My friend Josh Otani (Master’s Degree in Marriage and Family Therapy from Utah State University and a Bachelor’s in Psychology with a minor in Family Life from Brigham Young University; active LDS) joins us to talk about: * How to build a healthier tools and perspectives about the sexual part of ourselves * Untangling shame from our sexual part—not something that needs to be “covered up” * It’s beautiful, inherent, and life giving * Thoughts are part of our experience—be curious—not your identity * Agency is after our thoughts—act within our value system * Working through betrayal trauma (ourselves and our role to help others) * Developing “safety and security” in a marriage comes at a price—the price of being vulnerable * Discussion of how to create a culture of vulnerability * Being a peacemaker—fresh perspective This is a super powerful episode to talk sexual shame and how to develop better tools and perspectives to do better. I wish I had listened to a podcast like this a long time ago—before becoming a parent and in my church assignments. I could have done such a better job to help reduce shame and a much more positive perspective on their road to recovery. Thank you Josh for being on the podcast. You are doing much good in our community. You give me hope. Links: For anyone who would like to connect, feel free to reach out or schedule a 20-minute consultation through the following: Website: https://bigvalleytherapy.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigvalleytherapy/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@big.valley.therapy?lang=en Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61578825803249 Psychology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/porn-addiction-betrayal-trauma-josh-otani-sandy-ut/1252682 If you’re a church leader, please don’t hesitate to reach out if you’d like me to come speak with you personally or present to a group (youth, Elders Quorum, etc.).

My friends Andy and Stephanie (LDS parents of 4; living in Vancouver, Washington) join us to share their story. Andy starts with the talk he gave in Church using the line “other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation” from the Family Proclamation to talk about how to better love and support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints. It is a powerful talk—one of the best I’ve heard on addressing this important topic—using church leader quotes, Christ teachings, and church resources. Andy received only positive feedback on the talk. Stephanie and Andy then have a discussion around the process to write the talk and things they are doing to be allies in their circle of influence (including starting a local gathering group) to support LGBTQ Latter-day Saints and those who love them. If you are looking to talk about this subject (in church, family, etc) please listen to and share Andy’s talk. It will give you tools, insights, and church quotes to talk about this subject. And if you are LGBTQ, I believe Andy’s talk and the work Andy and Stephanie are doing will give you hope. Thank you Andy and Stephanie for being on the podcast and all you are doing to create Zion. You give us all hope. Links: Lift and Love Gathering Groups: https://www.liftandlove.org/gatherings Life and Love Gather Conference (Nov 2026): https://www.liftandlove.org/gather Church Resources You May Not Know About Podcast with Barry Donakey, All Out in the Open S7 E48: https://youtu.be/7Nqs3mk5ZyY?si=-DjlM449wWbSOX6K

**Note: In this episode, Emily talks about being lesbian. In a future episode, Emily talks about being blind** My friend Emily Groves (student of Boise State University, doubling in bio and computer science, active LDS) joins us to share her story. * Journey to understand and accept being lesbian * Break from religion * Coming back to religion—super powerful experience with God confirm she is lesbian * Coming out to her Patriarch prior to her Patriarchal blessing (positive experience) * Coming out to others—possible family reactions * How her feelings about the church vacillate—but trying hard to make it work—loves being in the Church * Work to find/accept her path and grace for others choosing a different path * Probably will marry a woman someday * Open to serving a mission, open to getting endowed—and thoughts around these two decisions Thank you Emily for your courage to share your story. You are awesome—and wise beyond your years. Honored to have you on the podcast. You story and insights help all of us better love, understand and support others. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Emily’s e-mail: [email protected]

My friend Gabby Rich (Brazil RM, BYU-Idaho graduate, day care teacher, from Anacortes, Washington) joins us to bravely share her story: * Grew up “goody 2 shoes” Mormon * “Shame cannot survive being spoken” * Kissed her last mission companion * Chose not to take the sacrament day of her mission homecoming * Believed she was straight—dated guys * Strong interest in a guy who “would be the answer to all my problems” * Broke off relationship—downward spiral of anxiety * Finally accepted being attracted to girls * Started to come out (some good and some not so good responses) * "Was still valuing others’ perceptions of me—versus living authentically" * UVU institute class for queer members—super helpful in her journey * Parents became great allies * Started dating girls—everything clicked * Wants to “find a girl who would share my same desire to maintain a relationship with Heavenly Father and works to becoming more Christlike” * Helpful advice received from others * Hopes for the future Thank you Gabby for your courage to share your story. I learned so much from you. Your brave/honest/vulnerable story will help others believe God loves them and find more hope. You are awesome. You have a great life ahead of you! Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gabrielle.rich.73 Instagram: @richgabrielle

My friend Magnum Davis (High School Senior/Utah County, out to family/friends for over 3 years) joins us to bravely share his story: * Painful Jr. High Experience—always being asked if he was gay * Mom’s support during these years * Starting to come out in early High School years—“felt freeing” * Coming out to entire family—“each time I told someone, I grew” * Great family support over the years * Believing can’t be gay and Mormon—initially felt like he had to choose one * Dating boys—keeping communication open with parents * Difficult Bishop experiences—but giving grace * Breaking point—“I had to break for God to build me into something better” * Seeing and working through deep rooted shame—helpful therapists * Love conquers everything * Love he feels from his Heavenly Parents and his Savior * “Being gay is a spiritual gift” Thank you Magnum—one of our youngest guests—for being on the podcast to share your story. Respect for your courage to share your story out of a desire to help other feel hope. Your story helps so many. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Links: Instagram: @magnummiles

My friend Soren Neilsen (age 21, Sacramento California RM, from Michigan, University of Utah student) joins us to share his story: * Realizing he was different—not attracted to girls * Working through internalized homophobia and shame * Hurtful things said about gay people while growing up * Coming out to Bishop (good experience) * Gay LDS friend—friend throughout his mission—offered love, acceptance, and support * Decision to serve a mission * Coming out to both mission presidents (generally good) * Coming out to companions and generally the whole mission (generally good) * “God wants me to use my sexuality to help others come unto Christ” (I thought I could add that there is unity in our differences) * Deep testimony of our Heavenly Parents and our Savior—and His atonement (D&C6:36) * Personal revelation * Feeling his best path forward is to marry a man and build a life/family together with Christ as the foundation Thank you Soren for being on the podcast to share your story. You are brave. Thank you for helping so many people come unto Christ during your mission and for the many lives you blessed. Love your testimony/love of Christ and how He wants to help all of us. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Honored to have you on the podcast. Links: Instagram: @sojonie1 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/soren.nielsen.632826

My friends Kade Smith (age 38, lives in San Diego, married to husband Chris for 9 years) and Terri Smith (LDS married mother of 4 sons) join us to share their story. I’ve been friends with the Smith family as we lived together in the same Sandy neighborhood from about 1993-1998. Sheila and I love the Smith family. Kade shares: * Coming out at Age 18 * Moving in San Francisco and being groomed into an abuse relationship. Was vulnerable and need validation * Becoming HIV positive—told his Mom * Going “all in” with the gay community—needed belonging * Abuse, drug and alcohol addiction—suicidal, called Mom from his balcony—drive back to Salt Lake City * Long road to sobriety—being “loved back to life” * Role of Heavenly Father and Kade’s Savior Jesus Christ to help him * Importance of the Word of Wisdom * Belonging withing the sober community * Helping others. Moving forward Terri shares: * Challenges of parenting an adult child with drug/alcohol challenges * Always loving and believing in Kade * Being there for his drive back to Salt Lake City * Love of Kade’s husband Chris—“our family would not be complete without Chris” * “I love you Kade, and am proud of your life” This is a super powerful story of Kade’s long journey to be sober and do the hard work necessary to get to this point. It is a story of survival, resilience, hope, turning to God, and courage. It is also a powerful story of a mother’s love for her dear son. Doing this podcast together is super powerful—a beautiful family love story. I encourage everyone to listen and share this episode. Thank you Kade and Terri for your courage to share your story. It will help so many!

My friend Laurie Reese (married mother of five, one grandchild, active LDS) joins us to share her story based on a recent talk she gave in her Ward: * Story of her son Landon and her daughter Hallee coming out as gay * Hallee’s marriage ended. Mother of one. Now engaged to her girlfriend * Laurie’s support for her gay children * Loneliness as some people pull away and don’t know what to say * Melissa Inouye’s book “Sacred Struggle” and sitting in the back seat on the road to Piha * Teaching of Jesus to love those on the margins “Easier to put others in a group and then label them in a certain way and set them aside and dismiss their pain and needs” * We don’t need to use Satan’s tactics (take away agency) to accomplish God’s plan * Questions I ask myself as I better try to follow Jesus * Landon’s difficult seminary experience—how we can do better * Church leader quotes about diversity and doing better * Story of selling a home and heart dropped as a gay couple came to look at the home—and now hoping her gay children will be loved as they move into their own homes This is a super powerful episode with Laurie being honest about the pain and challenges of raising gay children—not because they are gay—but because of the lack of support and understanding for these wonderful children. If you have queer children (or want to be better prepared to raise your future queer kiddos), please listen and share this episode. And if you want better tools to love our queer friends and their families, please listen/share this episode. Thank you Laurie for being on the podcast. I was so moved with your story and spiritual insights. Thanks for all you are doing to build Zion and help everyone feel loved and a sense of belonging. Links: https://www.facebook.com/laurie.v.reese [email protected]

My friend Candice Bithell (married mother of three, active LDS) joins us to share her story: Candice’s backstory Bones (her transgender son) coming out at age 13/14 Parable of the Lost Coin as her spiritual lens Powerful insights into the Lost Coin Parable to support Bones Difficult experiences on Bones journey—anger, self-harm, etc… Love as the foundation of her approach to support Bones “My love is bigger than your gender” Attending Pride Events—including bringing glowsticks—powerful experience of love and acceptance Close and loving family—beautiful family love story This is one of the best podcasts we’ve done for providing insights (both doctrinally and from a parent’s perspective) into loving and supporting a transgender child. If you are looking to better understand and support the transgender people in your life, please listen and share this podcast. Thank you, Candice, for being on the podcast and all you are doing to help us all better love and support the transgender people in our lives. You have a beautiful family. Links: Candice’s Wayfare Article: https://www.wayfaremagazine.org/p/glowsticks-and-parables Candice’s Substack: https://substack.com/@cbithell

My friend Douglas Williams (President of the Real OCD Club and the Un Alone Club at BYU; dual-major at BYU, RM, MTC Teacher) joins us to share his journey with OCD and scrupulosity: Understanding, managing, and accepting intrusive thoughts—not a sign of worthiness Thoughts don’t have anything to do with our character Undiagnosed scrupulosity entering mission field (repeated confessions to Stake President) Difficult start to mission, medication, things got better (still misdiagnosed) Coming home from mission, going off medication, and crashing Finally got a correct diagnosis—path to healing Importance of Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy Ego-syntonic thoughts (line up with values) and ego-dystonic thoughts (don’t line up with values)—super powerful distinction Invitation to join the Real OCD Club at BYU (focused on OCD) Invitation to join Un-Alone Club at BYU (focused on solving porn use) If you are working to understand and navigate OCD in yourself or help others, Douglas’ podcast will help you. Douglas—who has a gift of great communication—does an excellent job of helping us all better understand OCD/Scrupulosity and how to solve these mental health challenges. Links: Real OCD Club at BYU on Instagram: @readocdblub Un Alone Club at BYU on Instagram: @un.alone.byu