Deep Dive with John Lanchester on Knowing

Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist Geraldine Brooks set out to profile a government bureaucrat and found something closer to fiction: Jarod Koopman, a fit, tattooed IRS agent who teaches jiu-jitsu three mornings a week, built his own house (including a wine cellar because he also happens to be a certified sommelier), and has personally helped return billions of dollars to American taxpayers while freeing children from exploitation and dismantling criminal empires hiding behind cryptocurrency. Kelly and Geraldine talk about why Jarod turned down the kind of salary the private sector would gladly pay him, and what it costs a country when talented, mission-driven people walk away from public service. This fifth and final episode of our Unsung series is a conversation about what fairness in America actually requires to survive—and why we should be paying much closer attention to the people making sure it does.

This week, a quiet goodbye. Kelly remembers Glen Hansard—musician, actor, and the beating heart of the lovely independent film Once—who died this week at 56. It's a short reflection on presence, authenticity and making art against the odds. Raise a glass.

This is the second clip from Kelly's conversation with Sharon McMahon — former public school teacher, America's unofficial government teacher, and someone who has spent years reminding the rest of us that we've been here before. This week she tells the story of a woman named Septima Clark, who was fired for her civil rights work, went on to teach some of the most consequential figures in American history, and arrived at the end of her long life with a belief that feels almost impossible to hold right now — and maybe more necessary than ever.Check out Sharon's book The Small and the Mighty: Twelve Unsung Americans Who Changed the Course of History, from the Founding to the Civil Rights Movementhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/0593541677?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback

The Consumer Price Index determines your grandmother's Social Security, your SNAP benefits, your divorce settlement, and — historically, at least — whether the president keeps his job. It is also, according to British journalist and novelist John Lanchester, intellectually thrilling. In the fourth episode of our Unsung series, Kelly talks with the writer The Economist called "a down-to-earth and witty guide to the most complicated ideas of our time" about what it means to live in a country that counts everything — and what happens when we start to lose faith in the numbers.If you haven't yet, pick up Michael Lewis's Who Is Government? and John Lanchester's new novel Look What You Made Me Do (Norton, May 2025).To connect with Kelly and get a list of her weekly takeaways, join Kelly's free Substack.

Nobody calls it therapy. That's why it works. Kelly's husband Edward rides bikes several times a week, and keeps coming home saying the conversations are deeper and richer than Kelly might expect. This week, a piece of writing started circulating among cyclists everywhere that explains exactly why - and we thought it was worth sharing. Written by Anthony Walsh (host of The Roadman Cycling Podcast), it's about what happens when a group of men show up in a parking lot at eight in the morning and head out together, shoulder to shoulder, for a three hour bike ride. This one is for every group that shows up, week after week, without quite knowing why it matters — until it does.

Sharon McMahon is a former public school teacher who now teaches civics to over a million people on the internet. Kelly caught up with her at the Aspen Ideas Festival, and this clip is about something that feels urgent right now: the difference between just knowing more and actually doing something — and why cynicism, left unchecked, might be the most dangerous force in a democracy.Special thanks to the Aspen Ideas Festival where this episode was recorded - especiallyTricia Johnson, Kara Stein, Sophia Greiper, Katie Trenchard and Gabe Chenoweth.

Somewhere in the National Archives, there are 13 billion documents that belong to every American — and for most of our history, you had to get yourself to Washington, DC if you wanted to see them. In the third episode of our Unsung series, Kelly talks with historian and writer Sarah Vowell about Pamela Wright — a woman who grew up on a ranch in Conrad, Montana, became the Chief Innovation Officer of the National Archives, and spent her career making sure those records were available to everyone, not only those who could make the trek to DC. This conversation is a reminder that democracy is not just an idea — it's a practice, carried out every day by diligent, caring people, most of whom we'll never know.To connect with Kelly and get a list of her weekly takeaways, join Kelly's free Substack.Check out Sarah Vowell's essay in Who Is Government? The Untold Story of Public Service.

This week we're sharing listener Andra Cardow's reflection on twenty years of marriage. She shows us how love grows through everyday moments—dog walks, car rides, and cozy nights at home. It's a delightful reminder that our most treasured relationships aren't built on big, dramatic moments, but in all those small, seemingly ordinary times we spend together. Andra beautifully describes finding joy in the simple things and how those little shared experiences can add up to something pretty special over time. (Previously aired)

In this episode, Kelly shares a piece of writing she's kept in her drawer for years about the power of choosing "good enough." She reflects on her mom's wisdom about saying "no" to the endless invitations and expectations that pile up in our daily lives and how learning to be selective creates space for what truly matters (Previously aired)

There are people working inside the federal government right now solving problems so enormous and so unglamorous that most of us will never know their names — or what we owe them. In the first episode of our new series Unsung — inspired by Michael Lewis's book, Who Is Government? — Kelly talks with Max Stier, CEO of the nonpartisan Partnership for Public Service, about who these people are, what drives them, and what we stand to lose if we stop paying attention.To connect with Kelly and get a list of her weekly takeaways, join Kelly's free Substack.Check out Michael Lewis' book, Who Is Government? HERE