Art Therapy for Cult Survivors with Natalee Bigger Stockdale

Natalee Bigger Stockdale is a cult survivor and an art therapist. In this episode, Natalee and I talk about the healing power of creative expression for cult survivors, and other survivors of trauma. Among other topics, Natalee points out that when we use visual means of creative expression (painting, drawing, etc.) we bypass the language areas of our brain, which accesses other parts of ourselves that need healing. She also talks about how creative expression is an excellent tool for helping us recover our sense of self after being in a high-demand group. In the introduction, I talk about a recent article that highlights the art therapy being made available to wildfire evacuees in Penticton, British Columbia. This episode of Creative Alchemy is supported by the audiobook version of my award-winning, Amazon best-selling memoir, Cult, A Love Story. Readers call the book ‘compelling’ ‘gritty’ ‘intimate’ and ‘not boring’ – which is what an author loves to hear. I narrated the audiobook and if you have a Spotify premium subscription you can listen to the audiobook for free as part of that subscription at alexandraamor.com/spotify. Natalee Bigger Stockdale holds a bachelor’s degree in studio art and business from the University of Northwestern and a master’s degree in clinical mental health counseling and art therapy from Adler Graduate School. She has worked in clinical practice as a Board-Certified Art Therapist (ATR-BC), Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor (LPCC), and is a Board-Certified Neurofeedback provider (BCN-L). Natalee completed a postgraduate certificate in the Psychology of Coercive Control (PgCert) through Salford Univeristy and has relocated to purse doctoral work with Florida State University in the Art Therapy Practice and Research Program, supporting the recovery journey of victims of exploitative persuasion. Self-portrait by Natalee Bigger Stockdale Connect with Natalee at LinkedIn. You can listen above, on your favorite podcast app, or watch on YouTube. Notes, links, resources and a full transcript are below. Show Notes Discovering art therapy after immersion in music and ceramics On meeting her husband who had also been in a cult On Adlerian psychology and its core tenant of belonging How making art reflects how we present ourselves in the world Coming to enjoy recovery work with those from high demand groups Getting involved with a somatic drumming group as a licensed therapist that turned out to be high demand When is it safe to explore art therapy after a high demand experience? How making art bypasses the language centres of the brain How to find an art therapist to work with Suggestions for using art on our own to heal Resources mentioned in this episode Article at the CBC website about art therapy for wildfire evacuees The International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) The Lalich Center on Cults and Coercion The American Art Therapy Association   The Canadian Art Therapy Association   Julia Cameron and The Artist’s Way Transcript of Interview with Natalee Bigger Stockdale Alexandra: Natalee Bigger Stockdale, welcome to Creative Alchemy. Natalee: Thank you, Alexandra. It’s nice to be here. Alexandra: It’s great to have you here. Tell us a little bit about your background. Natalee: Sure. I know we’ll probably get into the professional part because that’ll be part of art therapy. But for me personally, I grew up in Iowa in the U.S. So Midwestern girl, kind of rural and small town. I always loved art; was really drawn to that. But I was trained in classical music. That was my mom’s dream for me and our family. And it was easy for me. Still worked, but I think the thing that was the easiest and just came out of me naturally as a maybe like a native language, if you will, or native expressive mode was through visual. When I was in high school, I had a really wonderful art teacher, and after I graduated, she told me art was always easy for you, and so that helped me define myself as an artistic person. Although I had all this classical training in music, and that’s what I decided to pursue in college. Even though it’s like a maybe a starving artist degree, I’m lucky that it ended up where I am. I’ve always followed my heart that way, and really value being led. I guess, like by my intrinsic interests. Let’s see what else. I love being outside and out in the forest. That’s always something that’s drawn me back to myself is trying to get near, especially rivers. They just call me. Alexandra: You moved from undergraduate work into a greater interest in art therapy. How did that happen? Natalee: I moved from Iowa up to the Twin Cities for my undergrad degree. I focused mostly on painting and ceramics, and then I spent about seven years in production ceramics. And it is hard work. It’s takes a toll on your body, my body, and there are a lot of different things. You don’t talk a whole lot. It’s a lot of numbers. I did glaze testing for a while, mixing dry chemicals. I did a lot of slip casting for my own work and dry clay mixing, so it was pretty. I don’t know. I guess it was it was fun and playful at sometimes, but it’s also this thing that turns into a job with deadlines and the hustle. And so, along with that, I would say in that realm, a lot of folks are there just for the art and production, not necessarily self-reflection and internal exploration. I was always longing for that and missing that when it wasn’t happening in the production scene, and so I ended up moving. I had a roommate who was trying to get to New York for an art therapy degree, and I had heard about art therapy before. And it lit me up, and I had that intrinsic draw towards it, and I didn’t feel like I could pull off New York, but Minnesota had a one school that offered a master’s degree, and so eventually I was able to become stable enough. Actually, met my husband. Maybe I’ll do a little segue here. He loves telling this story. We both were in high demand groups, and he had never found really any help or anyone who understood that. He had gone to therapy and started unpacking some some of his own stuff, and he had gotten married while he was trying to escape this hiding group, and realized that that relationship wasn’t ever a match. It was more of a like escape route, and so that was dissolving. As he was in therapy trying to figure out the next direction, I guess we ended crossing paths, and I thought he was total trouble. I was afraid of being attracted to someone, and I would say he was the first person that I was genuinely ever attracted to, and which is kind of bonkers, I guess. We end up going on a date. It goes great, super great. Then the and we went to American Craft Council show. So talk about creativity. We’re in creative spaces, looking at aesthetics and beauty and craft. And we go on a second date, and we’re walking around Lake Harriet in Minneapolis, and he all of a sudden changes, and I’m like, what is going on? He just went into a turtle shell, and I think I had asked a question where the timeline wasn’t like clear. You know, you’re like trying to get to know this person you’re like interested in. He turns to me and I could tell he expected rejection, and he goes, “Well, I was part of a cult.” To this day he’ll say that he thought I was going to be like, okay, bye. And I was so relieved when he said that. My eyes got big, and I took a step towards him, and I just said, me too. We’ve been inseparable ever since. Alexandra: Oh wow! I’m getting chills all over when you said that. Natalee: Yeah. So that’s it. He’s a really big gift to me. I think we are to each other. And long story short, up to how I got into grad school. Life finally became stable for both of us in a lot of different ways when we found each other, and I was able to pursue that dream of getting an art therapy degree, and got into private practice, and this is a key point, though, with my specific degree. I was trained in Adlerian psychology, and quick snippet. I guess this is like nothing that I wrote on the paper question, but maybe it’ll be interesting. Adler, Freud, and Young were all contemporaries. Adler is easily forgotten in the history or lineage of psychology because he was actually the president of Freud’s publishing house, and he disagreed with Freud publicly in one of the forums about women being inferior, and that our core drive was of a sexual nature. Freud called a vote, and they voted him out. He was excommunicated, and all of his publishings in Freud’s journal were revoked. And so Adler went away and continued develop to develop what we call individual psychology. It’s its own branch of psychology, and it’s at its core, it’s about belonging. The desire to belong with our fellow human is our core. It determines our behavior of how this is going to help me secure a position with people around me. Whether that’s a tragic strategy to meet that need or a beneficial one is more of the question. And he was really into the creative life force, so that everybody is a unique creative expression. Their personhood, their personality, and anytime we interact with someone different, it’s actually like a whole different painting, if you will, or like a whole different, even hybrid. Like when two different people come together, that’s even a new thing. So for me, it dovetails into art therapy really well because there’s the meta level, but then when it comes down into the materials and working with someone in materials in a clinical way, it’s you’re seeing that person in a projective exercise, and not only in what they create, but how they create it, how they choose to sort through which materials they want to go towards, or how they display confidence in trying something new, or going to a familiar thing, or mixing things, or we call it containment. I hear this almost in my professor’s words: the containment of the materials. Is it all over the room? Are we needing to bring it in for them, and that’s a co-regulating act, or is it hard for them to even make a mark because they’re afraid to take up space or to make a mistake? So different kind of spectrums or directions of movement with that. I did that for about five years. And at Adler, it’s very embodied, I would say, and very relational. So experiential learning is Adlerian. He’s also very pragmatic. I love psychoanalysis, and my friendly folks who practice this invaluable. Thank you for their work. Adler had this idea of brief therapy, that it was to help people get to that strategy, resolve this strategy of how to have their need for belonging met, and if we can help them do that, then we can help them get along in their lives, and we work ourselves out of a job, essentially. So, that being said, Adler Graduate School was a nonprofit, and it was not a research institute, and my classes that I was most intrigued with were these more like assessments how they had taken art making and then applied standardized measurement tools to it, which is really hard. That’s like so abstract. But there’s several people who are in that and gathering data on that and generating kind of these themes. Or I won’t say norms, but ideas that come out of humans when they go through certain things, or when they’re connected in a certain way, or how they display a family, projective exercise of their family on a piece of paper. So that’s what really drew me into my interest in PhD. I was always reaching out to people in my textbooks, seeing if anybody would get back to me, and one did. Except Dr. Nancy Gerber, who I am getting to work with at FSU. She walked me through this process after I was licensed and working with people and really getting to know the field, she said. If you want to get into doctoral work, look for the gap. I fell in love with high demand group recovery work. There’s so little, and clinically speaking, I mean, we’ve got podcasters, we’ve got Netflix, like these are all arts, like valid collective expressions of this theme that’s emerging in the collective awareness. We don’t necessarily have that up to speed in research, scholarly work, therapeutic best practices. I’ll rewind just a second; I got involved with a somatic drumming group as a licensed therapist that sucked me down the trail where I was like, oh, you know what? I’ve been here before in my early 20s. I got involved with a high demand group. I know what this feeling is. I’ve done EEG training. I know what this looks like on a screen. My theta is off the charts right now, and I am dissociating. And they’re telling me that it’s good. No, it’s not good. It’s not. I’m getting ready to either be rewritten according to their agenda, which I don’t know what that is, so I can’t give consent, or I’m just going to float away until like nothing’s left. You can even tell, like, just recalling it. So good intentions bound me up in a similar situation, and I left. I left in time, and I had something that got brought up for me. So I guess the researcher term is like heuristic, like starting from within research. And I had this experience come up for me, where I was like, I’ve been a licensed therapist, and nobody’s ever mentioned cult, high demand group, religious trauma, course of control, interpersonal relational betrayal. All of these terms that are starting to bubble up from people having Reddit conversations and wherever we find our little threads to talk about it, and that’s the gap. I felt like I needed to do something about that, and I’ve been so humbled in my PhD practice. I’m like, okay, everybody comes in thinks that they’re going to change the world. I saw this on a meme yesterday. I was like, that’s it. Now I’m just trying to change the font on my final paper. Like I’m just trying to make the next deadline. That’s it. I mean, those do add up over time. But that’s that’s what my inspiration is, and why I’m checking this out, and really, I guess even more so, trying to find like an even smaller gap, because in dissertation we really I need to get really clear about what’s going to be most valuable. What’s gonna help people know, if I go this direction, it’s going to help me, not harm me with creative expression or writing or singing or any of those things. I’m not a music therapist, and that’s a whole other branch of clinical that I won’t be into. I’m yeah trying to recycle that for myself. Also, we have a lot of, we call it reflexivity in research, where we don’t want to project our. It’s a really hard tension and line to walk, which is I’m led by something that I know, but I can’t let that blind me to other possibilities or other ways of asking questions when I approach people for the data. And so that’s a thing I grapple with. Alexandra: As someone who has had the experience of high demand groups, how have you found art to be healing? Natalee: I love that question. I I think it’s like coming home for me. Visual art for me is simple. It’s clear, and I almost want to use the word pure for me. That might not be the case for everyone. I also am neurodivergent, so I have dyslexia and definitely have a strong spatial bent to me. I think this is really curious. Daphna Moria, she’s a art therapist researcher out of Israel who just published a paper on doing a kind of like a comprehensive overview of one’s own body of artwork, and then how to look at that from a scholarly or like researcher point of view, and unknowingly, when I heard her speak and read her paper, I am like, oh my gosh, I did that about art because I had this whole body of artwork that I had made that I could never explain. If you go through art school, your teachers are always like yakking at you about clarify your voice, clarify what you’re saying, and I’m like, how do I do that? It’s an image, like, and no one can see me. No one’s speaking to the wound that happened, so I don’t know how to articulate this or even in what direction to go. It was purely material exploration at a certain point. But these themes, as I’ve gone back and looked at them, is actually the portfolio that I pulled together to get me into the PhD program, and after doing a software program and really getting plugged into ICSA, I would say here in the U.S. That’s like the you know the thing that we kind of look to. Organization. I started getting language for it, like being able to consciously articulate. Hey, when I was working with broken shards of porcelain, I wasn’t like someone else where I was throwing those pieces away and moving towards a different material. I was determined to use these, even though they’re broken and they’re razor sharp. What’s up with that? But I I projected some part of my identity into these pieces that I had to gather and make something out of. And I still have one hanging up over there. I turned them into little pieces of stained glass where you put the copper tape around them and then solder, and then put a jump ring, and then I made them into mobiles. It was like finding balance with all of these broken pieces. I call them reimagine, and I consider them a self-portrait, because I had the imagination of what it was going to be when it first came out of the mold, but that didn’t work. So I might liken that to like approaching a group and then appealing to that glimmer of belonging, however, that hooks different people. Mine was significance, I think. Having some sort of permanence or like closeness with a group of people who are headed in the same direction. After you leave, it’s almost like I had to give up on that dream. But that’s in essence what I rediscovered with these pieces, and then articulating later in words, is, oh, it’s not the dream that my psyche and soul cast to belong. It’s just how I was trying to get there, and this this dynamic that took advantage of it, So, however that happens, I know enough to know I know very little, and there’s very complicated dynamics with all those things. Alexandra: On that note, when do you think it’s appropriate for a cult survivor or a survivor of other kinds of trauma to begin art therapy? Is there a time when it isn’t safe? You know how they say when people join Alcoholics Anonymous, for example, you’re supposed to stay out of relationships for a year. So, is there a similar rule, so to speak, around when someone could start art therapy? Natalee: That’s a good question. I guess what comes to mind first when you ask that, and I have different things written down, but the first thing that comes to mind is that art therapy was birthed in the in the most destitute, like highest acuity populations. Art therapy was the last resort for people who were beyond help. So, state kept wards and veterans, so like really severe PTSD suffering individuals, and what they know clinically speaking about the art is that the act of making or expressing through image, or play, or different materials, it bypasses the language centers of the brain. Oftentimes when we’re doing cognitive and talk therapy, we’re activating those parts of the brain to try to reprocess, but they can reinvoke the experience of that traumatic happening. So our memories, we can feel them up to 60% of when they when they first occurred to us. That’s an awesome survival tactic to map safety in the world. But when we’re in talk therapy, that can flood someone very quickly. So when we do these projective exercises, it can bypass that part. We might talk about it after. We might do containment with just the materials. We might have put it in a folder at the end of session and saying, “Okay, like we’re closing up now. This will be here for whenever we want to revisit it later.” That person can have a tangible symbol. And I guess there’s neuroscience too. I don’t know how far you want to go down these things, but I find them so interesting because I think it’s almost linked to how I naturally experience the world and ask questions and process. So I’ll tell this one other thing, and then maybe I’ll get back to your question. The part of the brain called the hippocampus is responsible for geographical remembrance and navigation. There is some research that suggests that that’s also similar to how we orient our relationships. So, like our human relationships. So we can use projective exercises, even like with blocks. It doesn’t have to be necessarily art materials, but we can use these blocks to project the experiences for warmth or coldness, distance, closeness. Is this person more emotional with me? Are they more cognitive with me? We start mapping the experience of these people or or ourselves. I’ve told everyone that’s on this board, but I’m trying to pull together a committee for my doctoral research, and I have every person that I have an option of asking. I have them printed off and then on a magnet, and in the center, this egocentric exercise. I’m there in the center, and I’m starting to map who’s who’s my team, and it mirrors it back to me, so that I don’t lose it. Somehow, that’s a a confirming circle or loop for me to be able to interact with objects that way. If I talk through it, it seems to flutter away. So that’s one of those little like neurological hacks. I think that’s really interesting about art. I try to observe that a lot with folks that I sit with in session with spatial orientation of materials of what they’re putting on the paper, even if they’re really like drawn to fibers or like knotting jewelry bracelets. There’s kind of like a bilateral soothing thing to that, like okay, we’re like doing some somatic soothing, and usually that pacing, like we can wind down in the session and get to like one or two, like maybe like big landing places for them of like whoa, I experience betrayal, and then they just go right back into knotting. So it’s not this big overdone, explosive emotion. I guess it’s really taken into the objects. So to your question about the bunny trail, I love bunny trails. They might be my favorite animal. Your question is: Is there a wrong time to start art therapy? I would say, obviously, if the person’s in crisis, like there’s a pretty big spectrum of people coming out of groups, and depending how long they’ve been in the group, what group is if they’re first generation survivor, second generation survivor can be determinants of whether art therapy is maybe an auxiliary support. If we’re in crisis management, I don’t want to be doing bracelet reading with you. I mean, it could be helpful in like an extreme case, but we want to make sure basic needs are met. So that’s part of any clinical assessment, though. With having someone come in and we’re checking, are your basic needs met? Are you experiencing the closest? Do you need medical attention? Sometimes that role is helping those those services get lined up first. I think it’s important to know too that art therapy is an emerging field. At Adler, I was dually credentialed. I didn’t really know this when I got out into the big, big broad world of art therapy, but I was trained as a licensed professional clinical counselor and an art therapist. I see art coming through in pretty much everything I do, especially as like a meta view of I’m a pretty creative person. Even with how I talk to people, so with that being said, there may be certain art therapists that have extra clinical support that they can offer. So that can be kind of a dovetailing service or support. I would look at probably like more stability of the person, and then the fit. Obviously, we want the fit of the person with the therapists to be good, and some art therapists, I’ve been trying to do my due diligence with presenting, but not all. Just like normal therapist world, not all therapists know about this, and in fact, many of them don’t. And even if they know about it, it’s are they willing to learn outside of session? The Lalich Center has a course that therapists can take. Are they willing to check that out? Are they willing to meet you there? This goes for art therapists too, and credentialing is up and coming too. I’m duly credentialed in Minnesota and in Florida, but some some art therapists aren’t, and so that’s just a different consideration to take in mind. And I would say for the person who’s looking for art therapy, or like, is that a potential for me? What do I want out of this? Am I going in with an idea of I’m going to develop skills around art that might be an art class, not an art therapy class or session. With art therapy, you’re going to probably have some really profound digging. It’s our job to itirate and stay pace with you, but it’s also this like we’re not doing our job if we’re not asking hard questions and being there with someone with the with the darker stuff. So yeah, asking what they want out of it. Art therapists are also going to have a treatment plan goal. I think they should. For cult survivors, I think it is really important that they also know an end date. For me, honestly, I sometimes shy away from engaging with my own therapy because I’m like, oh gosh, wherever. I need that because I’m in mental health, caring for other people. But yeah, I think that it is important, especially with payment too. That’s a final thing I would say for people to ask about is upfront, like what is the pay agreement? Do you take insurance? Do you have a sliding scale fee if you’re not in insurance? How many sessions do you think it might take to work through this this specific issue? I’m thinking that type of client probably is I would five to 10 years out of their group. Although, if it’s someone’s way that they process, like it could be straight out of their group that they’re like, I just need a place where someone can witness me expressing this horrible thing, horrible things that happen to me, and be able to contain it with me. Alexandra: Very good points, and I really appreciate you bringing that up because I think it’s so important for people to keep themselves safe when they’re searching. As a cult survivor myself, and you’ve had this experience too, we’re so vulnerable when we’ve just left a high high demand group. The reminder that we can set boundaries around these things. Ask for the pay schedule, like you said, and the end date, and those kinds of things. I think that’s so valuable. And I love that you said too: this is not an art class. It’s therapy; that is right in the name. Just a reminder about that as well. I loved what you said about language; that art circumvents, or I don’t know if that’s the word you use, goes around those language parts of our brain. I had never thought about it that way before. There was just such a light bulb that went on for me when you said that. As a word person, a writer and someone who expresses themselves very much verbally, I can really see the value sometimes in getting out of that kind of habit in a way and expressing myself in a different way, so that was really interesting. On that note, how would a cult survivor or anyone else find an art therapist in their area? Natalee: I would probably point them to American Art Therapy Association’s website. They have a provider directory, and within that, usually most states are having their own chapters nowadays. Minnesota just dissolved, but Florida has one, so you can check out their website. americanarttherapy.org, I believe, and you can search, I believe, by state and check out who’s who’s licensed and certified that way. Alexandra: I’ll put a link to that in the show notes, and then I’ll see if I can find a Canadian equivalent as well. Since I’m in Canada, there must be. Natalee: Yes. I think there is a Canadian Art Therapy Association. I’m pretty sure there is. So, I can try and send that to you as well. Alexandra: Okay, great. I’ll put some links in the show notes. If someone doesn’t have the resources to work with an art therapist one on one, what are some other things that they could do if they feel drawn to art making. Natalee: I think of art therapy really as a spectrum, and I don’t want to say that things outside of the clinical setting are therapy because that’s not therapy. But it’s still this really essential part of their creative self that they may have the safety even just alone to start reflecting in a nonverbal way and starting to capture notes. Not like I would say like visual notes, like like an aggregate of esthetics, if you will, I think these are powerful things that we can reference in constructing or reconstructing identity after we’ve been through identity dissolution or foreclosure. I would say get a sketchbook if that draws you. That might be get water colorings, little setup, put it in your backpack. It might be knitting for some people. Go towards the thing that draws you. Maybe go on a day trip to Michael’s, if you’ve got the budget. Set a funny dollar budget, and what’s one little thing I could acquire to inspire me? In that act, there’s these micro choices And discernment or self connection, where you get to make a choice again, and practicing that choice making, and then having an object at the end to take with you, can be kind of that anchor, if you will, in other environments. I think that’s a what I would say. There’s a really phenomenal author named. I think she’s great but she might have a cult following, so don’t get too culty about it, I guess. But Julia Cameron, She wrote The Artist’s Way, and teaches about writing three pages longhand a day. She’s got a free app. If that’s a way that someone wants to continue like catharsis or like getting the words out, the narrative out. And then the thing I just mentioned; I have to give her credit for that because that’s called what she calls an artist’s date, where you go out with your I think maybe like magical inner child and you something that delights you that you get to return to play. There’s not a goal that you’re trying to accomplish. So just practices that kind of loosen that and then get back into, I’m a human being. Alexandra: That’s such a good reminder about the artist dates. And she says things like even just going to a yarn store, even if you don’t knit, but just seeing the colors and feeling the different textures that she considers to be an artist’s date. Natalee: Yes. Absolutely. And maybe finding other creatives. I was like, yes, I remember that. It’s delicious. Like in a kind of like alive kind of way. Colors and textures, and like being drawn to different things in the store, and wonder. Oh, that’s fun to just even talk about it. Alexandra: I don’t go on enough artist dates. I need to do that more these days. This has been so lovely, Natalie. It’s been so nice talking to you. So you’re doing your doctoral dissertation now, so you’re not necessarily out in the world. Is there anywhere we can go to learn more about you? Natalee: If I have work coming out, I will put it on my LinkedIn profile. So, if there’s folks who want to follow along or friend me or connect or whatever, that’s where I’ll be for a little while. Alexandra: Great. Okay, so I will put a link to that in the show notes as well. And you mentioned ICSA as well, and I wanted to say, for those who don’t know, that’s the International Cultic Studies Association, and I’ll put a link to that in the show notes as well. We’re recording this in July 2026. You were you at their conference earlier this month? Natalee: I had two presentations with them this year on art therapy and internalized shame that was with Felicia Rosario and I think people might be able to find recordings of those maybe in their archives if that interests them. Pretty academic, so I fair warning. I think interesting, but just you know, and you can see that body of artwork that I talked about that got me into the PhD work on one of those. Alexandra: Awesome. Okay. Again, thank you, Natalie. It’s been lovely chatting with you. Natale: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Click here to grab your complimentary copy of the Creative Alchemy journaling handbook. The post Art Therapy for Cult Survivors with Natalee Bigger Stockdale appeared first on Alexandra Amor Books.

Christi Christiaens belonged to an immortality cult for 30 years. Her book, Wager on Forever, explores how she was drawn into the cult, how the trio of cult leaders applied the usual strategies to keep their followers on the hook, and how Christi was ultimately able to leave the group. Unfortunately, in order to do this, she had to leave her adult son behind. He’s still involved with the cult as of this recording. Based on what she shares in this interview, the writing process was healing for Christi, and you’ll hear her talk about why that was and what it looked like for her. It’s not an easy thing to do, to write about a traumatic experience, especially one that was 30 years in the making and I am so impressed with Christi’s drive and determination to tell her story.

Maggie Rayner is the author of In Polgamy’s Shadow. She grew up in a branch of the Mormon church that was not polygamist, but that does not mean that polygamy didn’t have an effect on her family. As Maggie shares in this interview, among the many other challenges she experienced as a Mormon child, she and one of her sisters had a very close call with being recruited into the polygamous community of Bountiful, BC in the 1960s. They avoided that fate, but couldn’t avoid the other impacts that the church had on their lives. Eventually, as an adult, Maggie was able to write her book and, as you’ll hear, the writing process played a big part in the healing process.

What happens when we use creative expression to help us heal from a traumatic experience like being in a cult? That's what I'm here to explore in Creative Alchemy. In this first episode, I share a bit about my story of joining a cult at the age of 22 in 1989 in Vancouver, BC, Canada. And I talk about how the recovery from that experience included a couple forms of writing, including journaling and eventually sharing about my experience in a memoir.

Hello explorers, and welcome to episode 68 of Unbroken. I’m Alexandra Amor. I’m here today with a little announcement. As you possibly saw in the title of this episode, I’ve called it pausing and stepping into quiet. I’m feeling a really strong urge lately to do just that, to pause things, step into the silence, spend a lot of time in quiet. We’re coming into summertime, here on the west coast of Vancouver Island, as I record this, and the days are getting longer and sunnier. And it’s not so much that I want to spend more time in the sun because I’m not really that type of person. But I do just want to spend time in quiet right now. And slow down a little bit and listen for wisdom, really. This episode is a little announcement letting you know that that’s what’s happening. I will keep you posted on any future directions or things that go on. Hopefully I’ll be back in a few weeks or a couple of months or whatever it is however long it lasts. I really feel drawn to just listening to wisdom, listening to my intuition, that kind of thing and following those nudges. So that’s what’s pulling me at this moment. For the next few weeks, I hope you are doing great, doing really well taking good care of yourself. Please remember that we are all always unbroken. Take care, bye. Featured image photo by Jack Church on Unsplash The post Pausing and Stepping Into Quiet appeared first on Alexandra Amor Books.

As we discuss so often on Unbroken, there is an intelligence and wisdom that, if we allow it to, can guide our lives to interesting and fulfilling places. As with most of us, it took Stephanie Benedetto some time to really listen to this wisdom and to trust that it would support her. When she did, she unlocked a life and a business that flow with ease, even in the challenging moments. Stephanie Benedetto is a transformational business coach, storyteller and (Un)Marketer at The Awakened Business, where she helps transformative coaches, healers and entrepreneurs unleash their heart’s message to create soulmate clients with playful (Un)Marketing — no hustle, or hype of endless social media required. You can find Stephanie Benedetto at TheAwakenedBusiness.com. You can listen above, on your favorite podcast app, or watch on YouTube. Notes, links, resources and a full transcript are below. Show Notes Business as a vehicle of creation Giving ourselves permission to create the lives we want Noticing what is alive within us that wants to guide us Following the nudge to make a big life change How we create our worlds based on Thought How the pressures we feel have nothing to do with what’s going on in our lives and everything to do with what’s going on in our heads How discomfort is created when our thoughts look real Paying attention to what we’re listening to How you being you is enough Resources Mentioned in this Episode The Surrender Experiment by Michael Singer Transcript of Interview with Stephanie Benedetto Alexandra: Stephanie Benedetto, welcome to Unbroken. Stephanie: Thank you for having me, Alexandra, this is a great pleasure. Alexandra: I’m so pleased to have you here. Tell us a little bit about your background and how you got interested in the Three Principles. Stephanie: I have been a pretty much a lifelong entrepreneur. Definitely in my adult life. But as I reflected on my childhood, I used to play games like Office and sell at Mr. Dobbs candy shop. And I used to sell cards and things. I was actually interested in entrepreneurship, even when I was quite young. So I’ve had multiple businesses.  The most notable and successful were we’re a business as a wedding DJ, with my now ex husband for 15 years. And then we transitioned into a digital marketing business, basically, internet marketing. So I used to create courses and a membership online, for other wedding professionals to teach them about business. I’ve been in love with business for a long time.  But my first love is really people. And I love business as a vehicle of creation. It’s a way that people can create the change they’d love to see in the world, they can be of service. That’s what I see business as. And so over the years, I wanted to have deeper impact with people. And that drew me more and more into coaching.  In my prior career, it looked more like consulting, marketing strategy. And I realized that there was something missing from that, for me, that we talked about these great ideas and people that didn’t do them, because they were scared, or they felt insecure. And I saw this also in myself, because in parallel, I was on my own personal development and spiritual journey. I wanted to go deeper for me.  So I hired my first business coach. And then I wanted to do what they were doing. And it took me on this whole journey until I realized, Oh, my goodness.  The business I currently have, which is called The Awakened Business is really meant to support entrepreneurs, who want to share the truth they’ve seen, and the gifts that they have with the world. And do it in a way that really feels good. Because there’s a lot that I was taught when I was studying internet marketing inside of business that maybe we could say is unethical or feels a little weird. And certainly people who are helpers and want to be of service often have a lot of what I could call head trash about selling and marketing. None of that has to be painful or icky, like it can actually be complete joy and totally enjoyable. And so that’s what I help people do now.  As I’ve gone deeper into my journey with the Three Principles have gone from Oh, this is a cool thing to add to all the other spiritual stuff. This was like years ago, I saw no contradiction with neuro linguistic programming and Practical Magic and Access Consciousness and EFT and all the other things that I was doing. I was like, Oh, the Three Principles fits great into this mix. I really care about understanding those principles. I don’t care about explaining it to others. I’d say this to myself until I realized I started talking about three principles with other people.  Then I was like, I want to be a transformative coach. I’m interested in that until I find myself in Michael Neal’s super coach Academy and becoming a certified transformative coach. So I actually think there was a wisdom in it that I was trying not to take it seriously not to try to do it right. I just let the process unfold.  As time has gone on that is more and more, it’s really the foundation of everything that I do, not just in my business, not just with the clients I work with, but to help people to really enjoy their lives and whatever it is they’re creating, through the recognition of what they really are, who they really are, and, and how we work. How we create our experience. And when we’re really at our best, and that we can trust this intelligence that enlivens us. And when that happens, man, building a business is a piece of cake. Alexandra: Oh, that’s great, good news for all the entrepreneurs out there.  How does it look different, trusting our own wisdom, trusting the intelligence that’s flowing through us versus trying to do it all ourselves. Stephanie: Oh, my God, it is so different. I’ve been on this journey myself, for years. And of course, it’s quite natural that I also guide other people on that journey. People don’t see me this way. So often, when I say that, I used to be a total rule follower. They’re like, really? Because such a big part of my message is that you get to do it your way, you get to play the game of business the way you want to play it.  I was really devoted to doing things right. And being a good student and a good girl for much of my life.  I brought that with me into what I learned about business. And so it was doing things the way they were taught to me following the rules, and a lot of that I learned a lot from it. And some of it worked. And some of it didn’t. But at some point, the things that I was supposed to do just didn’t feel quite right. But this was, of course, mirroring what was happening inside of me.  It wasn’t until I was, I think, maybe 38 years old that I asked myself, What do I want to create in my life?  It just hadn’t really occurred to me. Asking that question sent me inward. And I began to discover, like, how do I even know what I want? That was a journey for me in itself. And then I discovered the difference between creating from my intellect, creating from the rules that somebody else gave me or the way I’ve always done it, and how limited it felt, versus those moments when I got quiet. And something would just tell me, and I would just know, to do something. So I don’t think I jumped in all at once.  I read a book called The Surrender Experiment by Michael Singer, I think about maybe eight or nine years ago now. With it came alive my own surrender experiment, an exploration of what does that mean to surrender? What does that mean to let life show me? What I found and how this looks so different is that I don’t need to figure it out, which is a great relief, because I don’t think I was really that good at it. I mean, I coped well, but I can’t know what’s going to happen tomorrow. And I don’t know what’s going to work and what won’t.  I’m not very good at thinking about all things that need to happen. It’s overwhelming, and it’s very stressful. And I’ve realized that I don’t have to. Everyone has an area of their life where they know this, by the way, it might be the one place where they feel like, oh, I can just relax and I’m in flow. So for some people, it’s at work, for some people it’s with their kids. For some people, it’s when they’re out in nature, maybe they do a sport.  That’s available anywhere, including inside of our business. I am still discovering this, by the way, I’m still going deeper on this, that I can go to the source of wisdom inside of me for anything and everything. And in fact, that’s what I’m looking for is what I’m really looking for is there, including the answers about how to grow my business, how to market it, how to move past things that look like they’re stopping me. And of course, the feelings, the well-being and the peace and the happiness that I’m looking for. So that’s how it looks different. I hope I have answered that question.  Alexandra: You have Thank you. I love your analogy about how it does show up for everyone in some area of their life. And sometimes we take that a little bit for granted, I think we think oh well that it’s that one specific thing that I’m good at or relaxed about. And then we don’t realize that we can feel that way, in so many other areas, if not everywhere in our lives.  Before we hit record, we were talking about our intentions for the call. And one of the things I said was that I was interested in your personal story, and you touched on it a little bit already about being a good girl. And following the rules.  On your website, there’s some detail about how you followed your wisdom out of that way of being. Can you tell us a little bit about what that looked like for you? Stephanie: When I started asking myself, what do I want, I realized that I had been making my choices, based on a role that I thought I needed to fill, I had a lot of people pleasing behaviors going on, which made sense, because it was how I knew myself. I discovered that some of the things I was doing were part of the reason why maybe I didn’t like them after a while or became resentful or was because it really wasn’t something that I wanted. I didn’t even know I was allowed to ask that.  And as I did, as that was alive in me, I was listening. This is how I see it. Now, I don’t think I knew quite what I was doing then. But I was listening for guidance. I was always on a spiritual journey of some type. And as I got quieter in the moments when I did get quiet, which were few and far between, but I was finding them more. I was hearing things, I was getting a sense of things.  I was actually at a yoga retreat. Yoga was one of the many things that I pursued on this growth path. I had been married for I think, at that time, at least 16 years. This knowing dropped in that it’s time for you to leave your marriage. And I was like, why? This is not the first time I would get a message from the universe like that and be like, right, but I felt lots of things. It wasn’t just no, but see, I just knew there was a knowing in that. I took my time, which I think was also wisdom, because I loved my husband. This is another thing was like How can I leave there’s nothing wrong here. If there was abuse, if I was unhappy, if we didn’t like each other even, that will be a good reason. But I thought I needed a reason to make a choice. I didn’t know that because I want to, it’s a good enough reason. I waited about a year of just dropping expectations and letting go of the mess that I had and working with coaches and the mess that I had in my head. I had so much thinking about it. And until finally I felt clear, I knew that I knew it wasn’t.  I said to myself, if I’m going to leave this marriage, it’s not going to be because I’m trying to escape. That’s something I tried to do before I tried to implode our marriage earlier. Or because I’m avoiding something, but I’m going to do it from a place of peace. If I’m doing it. That’s how I’m doing it. And that is how it happened. I’m still friends with my ex husband and and I think we both…we could have done better of course, looking back I see so much more now than I did then. But we did really well navigating that.  My husband and I owned a business together. We owned two houses together, we had animals that we owned together. I left all of that. I had to close it off. It wasn’t an impulsive thing. We still worked in our business for I think almost two years before we sold it together. And I started traveling and pet sitting because I love pets, I love animals. And I didn’t know what I wanted to do and I didn’t know where I wanted to live and I didn’t just want to do what I’d always done and stay in New York, which is where I was.  That was my real experience. Surrender is I don’t know where I’m going to end up. And it’s continued. And it’s deepened. And it was almost two years ago that a similar big knowing dropped in where it was like, okay, I’m going to Portugal, go to Portugal. And there was a new relationship for me there. I had a very strong sense about what was going to happen. And I had to drop all my expectations about what that meant.  What I’ve come to learn about this wisdom is that it is in real time, it is for right now. And when it says go to Portugal, it means go to that direction now, like whatever that means, start the process. It doesn’t mean what I necessarily think it’s going to mean. So I had all kinds of thinking about Alexandria, again, like I was like, No, you’re doing this, I like my life. I’m happy here. But I also know to follow that, because that’s how I want to live.  There’s a delight and a depth to living from that place that I am surprised at what I find myself choosing and what comes my way. And it doesn’t lead me wrong. It doesn’t mean that everything works out the way I think it will, though. So that’s why it was like surrendering, surrendering my expectations about what this would mean. And if it would mean what I thought I just knew to follow those directions, just do that. And I did. And it actually went the way that I had sensed.  Along the way, I just showed up in the moment as best I could. It’s opened up a whole new world for me yet again, I didn’t realize the fear that had been driving me. It helped me see that. The world is bigger and possibilities that I never thought were available for myself. I can see them now. And I couldn’t before; they were invisible to me. And it’s not because I moved to Portugal, but that was a part of the journey.  Alexandra: Wow, there’s so much in there, I got goosebumps when you talked about being at a yoga retreat and feeling that knowing that it was time to leave your marriage. That’s extraordinary. And you touched on the good girl aspect of your personality earlier. I imagine that there was some resistance from that part of your personality when you started going in this direction more of following wisdom rather than pleasing other people. Could you talk about that resistance a little bit? Stephanie: What was interesting, Alexandra, was it wasn’t just a good girl living in my personality, there was also a rebel. So it was kind of like both were going on at the same time. And you can imagine that’s quite a war to have, when I don’t know that what’s really happening is conflicting thoughts. I thought that was part of me. My identity, right.  That started when I was a kid. I remember the first time I seriously rocked the boat in my family. I think I was about 15 years old. And I had my first existential crisis like, No, I am the good girl. Everybody loves me. I don’t do things that upset people and like, cause conflict and division and my family. That’s not me. Well, yeah, apparently it was. Because that too, was an experience that I have.  What I saw, and I’ve actually seen this recently, that the people pleasing behavior and the nice girl persona, the need to be that person came from this false belief I had built my world on, that for my own survival, I needed to never be a burden to anyone. And I made up what that was, right? Like, what does that even mean? Well, it’s definitely made it up. I made it up. So I could never be a burden to others, which meant I’ve really had to know what other people wanted and try to anticipate it and a whole world was created on that faulty premise that if I was a burden to others, I would be abandoned, and I would die. So that felt really scary and really important.  I built my personality on that. I built these habits and behaviors, and some of them served me at least some of the time, but many of them didn’t. As I grew and I would see these behaviors come up, like asking people for help used to seem impossible, then it felt uncomfortable, and then I’m like, this is trivial and silly. Why am I feeling fear? I saw that it made perfect sense based on the world I was living in and seeing the world I had created out of fear.  Seeing that we create it, seeing the fact that we create a world with thought. And then we call it my beliefs and my values and my identity. And this is the way the world works, meant that I didn’t have to create it that way anymore. And so now, sure,  maybe those habits of thought, those habits of behavior may come up. But I see them in a way I couldn’t see them before. They were invisible to me, they looked real before.  I don’t feel the resistance of it anymore. I don’t care, honestly, it’s like, I just went to the market today. And I feel nervous. Sometimes I freaked myself out. I’m learning Portuguese, and I don’t understand the numbers they’re saying when I’m paying for things sometimes. And so the nerves are so bad, I feel nervous. It’s really okay, I get over it really fast. And it doesn’t mean anything.  It used to look like it meant something. It used to look like it was life and death to me. And I didn’t see that. And now it doesn’t. Now I know, it’s just another experience like any other. So it’s not that all those things disappear instantly. But they don’t have the same hold over me. And actually, a lot of them have kind of disappeared. I notice things slowly just dropping away.  Alexandra: I want to ask specifically, we touched on it a little bit, but how the messages from your life pointed you toward another way to show up. So you talked about at the yoga retreat and you just had a knowing.  Are there other ways that you experience feeling wisdom or feeling being guided? Stephanie: Those are my first big examples of it. But now, it’s every day. Now, I see it everywhere. So for example, I wake up and I can just like kind of tune in like, what will be good for my body to eat today. I take supplements, but I don’t take them every day. I kind of just check in. Okay, not today. Just interesting. I don’t always do this, by the way. And it’s not a practice. It’s just something that started happening.  As I’ve been on my business journey, I’ll weave it into my business a little bit. So in business, I was taught a lot of different things. First, I was taught that you’re supposed to schedule all the important activities in your business to make sure that you do them. And so then I would like time block my calendar and I felt all this pressure. So I was like, I don’t want that anymore. So I stopped because somebody else told me that you should only have appointments on your calendar, and you should have space so you can see the spaciousness of your account. Neither one of those things are true, by the way. They’re just someone’s opinion.  So I did that for a while. And I realized I was kind of drifting. So I started going how do I want to experience this? Like what experiment can I do? So I started experimenting with adding some structure back in. The way I’ve kind of settled my days are often quite full.  But the pressure I feel has nothing to do with how much is on my calendar and everything to do with how much is in my head.  I know that now, I didn’t know that when I wanted my calendar spacious and free. But what I do is I do sometimes is time block activities to set aside time to work on writing this thing or editing these videos. But I give myself full permission to show up fresh with it. So that if it doesn’t feel right, or something else is occurring to me like wisdom like go now you really need a nap right now. That’s what I’ll do.  Because how could the me from a week ago know what would be perfect for me right now. So that’s kind of an example of how wisdom shows up in small ways. And even recently, I’m seeing oh wow, I can go there for everything and anything. I didn’t realize how much I was still going to my intellect, which is great. You know, it’s served me so well, if I want something really fresh, if I want to grow my business, if I want to create money, why am I going to my intellect, which is only aware of these certain ways to do it? Why am I not going to the source? And asking there what occurs to me?  This is a fresh journey for me. But there’s always something that occurs from there. And sometimes it’s surprising. Sometimes it’s common sense. Just the fact that I can look there is amazing. Just the fact that something’s there for me. It almost doesn’t matter what it is. Alexandra: I love that. And I love that you use the word fresh, because that’s a word that I’ve been using more and more lately. We have this wisdom that’s within us and comes to life moment to moment is so fresh, and creative. And wise, of course. But yeah, that word fresh is just so important to me these days.  You may have already addressed this in some of what you’ve said, but tell us a little bit about your ideas about that. Let’s talk about what the awakened business looks like. Stephanie: That’s funny, I really don’t think of it in those terms of like, there is an awakened business and one that is unawakened. I really wanted to call my business the awakened entrepreneur, honestly, but I couldn’t get the domain at the time. But what that means to me is coming fully alive, inside of your business, inside of your life, really, because they’re not separate.  Your business is a part of your life and when a person comes alive, and by that I mean begins to feel life, moving through them. Whatever way they might experience that begins to really be in their experience, give themselves permission to create what they want and enjoy. What’s happening now. Because aliveness is enjoyable.  The feeling of aliveness is, I mean, even when something crappy is happening. The aliveness that flows beneath and in all of it is amazing. And when that starts to happen, not as a state to achieve at every moment, but when it begins to happen, even in tiny moments, throughout your day, and you create a business, that way, you have a business that feels alive, you’re up to cool things. It’s easier to communicate what it is that you’re up to so that the people you’re here to help and serve understand that. You’re no longer creating it, because somebody said you should. This way, you’re creating it, because it feels right for you. And you get to do it wrong. I’m putting that in air quotes, I don’t think you can do it wrong. You get to make mistakes, and change your mind and make shit up. I do that all the time. I’m constantly making things up. Things don’t work. And I know I’m okay. I know that something new will occur, that something fresh will occur. So that’s what it looks like to have a business that’s alive for me.  Alexandra: Do you find that either yourself or your clients when they’re starting to learn about doing things this way? Is there a discomfort that comes up for them? Stephanie: Oh, yes. Alexandra: Is it uncomfortable? Stephanie: Yes. It often is. Because the first time like, I’m allowed to do that. Yeah, you’re making up your business. Because if you go into the typical business training world, people and I’m going to assume that most of them are well intentioned. I know they all are on some level. Ultimately, they all are. They want to help people. But what they do is they’re training people. They’re giving people their wisdom. And that’s not going to be the right fit for me or you, in parts of it might, it might inspire something for me. But that’s not the source. And it’s not going to be the perfect fit.  We’re taught that there’s a certain way to do things, you have to have a website, and on your website, you need to have this thing called the lead magnet, and you have to an email list and you need to do social media and the answer to those things. Is that true? No, no, no. And no. Or maybe yes, yes, yes. And yes. Only you would know.  It’s really weird for people at first, when I’m asking them like, well, what’s the current view? What do you know? So the people who do find me are kind of onto that, already a little bit like, they might describe it as I want to have a soul led business, or I want to follow more of my intuition or do things my way, because they’ve been around the block, and they haven’t been enjoying the way it feels.  But they still run up against that old thinking of there’s a right way to do it and a wrong way, and I better figure it out, because bad stuff’s gonna happen if I don’t. So yeah, that is uncomfortable. And I think, actually, something I’m seeing that is a bigger discomfort for people is letting go of the pressure, and the trying, and the doing and making ourselves figure it out. It’s all on me that many of us have used to drive our actions and our behavior, especially in our business, like actually going, I don’t have to figure it out. You mean I could listen to my wisdom, and that wisdom tells me seriously, that even seems like more of an uncomfortable thing for people. Alexandra: I’m so glad you said that. Because that’s something that I struggle with as well. I go along for a while and then I noticed myself drifting off, and feeling like it’s all on me, and feeling a lot of pressure. And then I remember, and I bring myself back. But it’s a habit. It is a little bit uncomfortable to break it, to know that there’s something else there that’s going to catch us and support us. Stephanie: At first it’s uncomfortable, but it’s only uncomfortable because I have a thought that looks real, that says something like, If I don’t do it, nothing will happen. I have to be the one to do it. I just feel the discomfort of that thought if without that thought it’s amazing to know I don’t have to do it. It’s a miracle that I don’t have to do it. My job is simply to be me. And to do what occurs to me. That’s it. Can it be that simple? Yeah. And it’s a great relief. Alexandra: That’s so true. The discomfort, the way that it feels is the clue. The discomfort that we feel about taking it all on ourselves is the thing that lets us know that that thought is a lie. I love that built in feedback system. Stephanie: It is becoming more and more black and white to me. As I am like, oh my really anytime I don’t feel good, peaceful, calm, I’m caught up in my thinking. That’s all it means. I don’t even need to know the content of that thinking. That’s what’s happening.  I know in that from that place, I am not seeing the world clearly. If I feel crappy, I am not seeing clearly, period, every time. It’s incredible to see that because it keeps pointing me back to look within. This is where I find what I’m looking for. And I start to settle down. If I’m not settled down, I know it’s just going to be a little while until it passes. It always does. Alexandra: You mentioned that you were at the listening seminar recently. Tell us about that experience. Do you have a highlight from it? Stephanie: There were so many little moments. It was amazing to be there. The first day we really just talked about and listened to people talking about listening. Some of my favorite mentors from inside the Three Principles, Michael Neill was there. Mavis Karn was there. I got to meet people in person who I’d never met in person before. And so we are all in a really lovely state.  This is a highlight I’ll share with you because it was unusual for me. Stephanie’s personality and my past, even though I like hugging people, I’ve always been a little weird with people in my personal space. Unless I know you, don’t come too close.  I was just in a really beautiful feeling listening to this presentation, I think it was on the first day. And I just look at this woman. And she just was so cute. She had a little bow, she had like a little flower in her hair, and this cute little dress on. And I looked at her and I see her look at me. And I’m like, it felt like we knew each other. I look away and I look back, and she’s smiling at me. And I’m smiling at her. I just went up to her and hugged her without saying a word. Without a thought. And as I hugged her, I was like, you have such a beautiful smile. And she was from the Czech Republic, I could tell by her accent as she responded.  She said, I was just thinking you’re such a beautiful woman. And that was it. We hugged, we spoke those words, we might have smiled and waved at each other at another point during that conference. But that was all. And it was such a perfect moment. I think this is what’s possible when we’re listening. When we’re just being. Listening isn’t about hearing. It’s an openness, it’s a receptivity, it’s what happens when I’m really present. Again, anytime I’m not feeling present, I’m not listening. And that’s what’s available, little miracles like that happen. nd I don’t even think about them, they just happen. Things move me. I don’t know why I hugged that woman. It just was the thing to do. Alexandra: It occurs to me that when it comes to listening, it feels like it’s pointing toward the opposite of where we normally live, which is a lot of chatter in our heads about ourselves, about other people, about things that are going on, about life, about whatever. And as you said, listening is more like an openness, or receptivity.  I love that distinction. Because it’s not just about our ears. Stephanie: My dear friend says, we’re always listening. Our listening is always perfect. What are we listening to? Most of the time, we’re listening to the chatter in our heads. And it’s not particularly productive. Sometimes it’s great fun, but other times, not so much. And we know by how it feels right.  When I’m listening within, it’s different. And things drop in, instead of me being caught up in them. It’s like they rise up or they drop in. That’s kind of a funny way to express it. But that’s how it feels. And it’s very different than when I’m listening to the contents of my intellect and my endlessly churning mind. Alexandra: As we’re coming to the end of our time today, is there anything we haven’t touched on that you’d like to share with our listeners? Stephanie: What I’d like to share is that you being you is not only enough, it’s amazing. I didn’t know that for a very long time. And it feels so good. That’s how you know you’re being you. It feels easy. It feels effortless. And I’m most myself when I’m not thinking about myself at all. And it’s a gift. It’s a gift for us, but it’s a gift for the world. And I would love for people to know that or know it a little more deeply. Alexandra: Nice. Oh, thank you.  Where can we find out more about you and your work? Stephanie: The best place would be TheAwakenedBusiness.com. That’s my website. I’m not active on social media. I’ve been doing some YouTube and a bit of LinkedIn, but I’m allergic to the rest for right now.  I do have an email list. If people would like to follow my adventures in life and business. I share a lot of my personal experiences and experiments, they can hop on my email list and learn more. Alexandra: I will put links in the show notes to your website. Thank you so much for being here with me today. I really appreciate it. It’s been really nice to meet you. Stephanie: You too, Alexandra. Thanks for having me. Alexandra: All right. Take care. Bye bye. Featured image photo by Natalia Slastnikova on Unsplash The post We Don’t Need To Figure It Out with Stephanie Benedetto appeared first on Alexandra Amor Books.

We all have a built-in GPS, a guidance system that never lies and that always has our best interests at heart. We can call that guidance whatever we want – wisdom, intuition, insight, knowing; the name isn’t as important as learning to listen to it. And, as Bonnie Jarvis points out, figuring out how your guiding wisdom speaks to you makes life so much easier. Bonnie Jarvis has a BA in Graphic Design, MS in Computer Science, MA in Spiritual Psychology and has completed several coaching programs. Using the skills she learned over the years, she’s helped many coaches with the technical details of building successful and thriving online businesses. For 9 years, Bonnie worked for 3PGC, a non-profit organization with a mission to share the simplicity of The Three Principles as uncovered by Sydney Banks. She developed all areas needed for their online business to thrive and significantly expand the understanding globally. You can find Bonnie Jarvis at BonnieJarvis.com. You can listen above, on your favorite podcast app, or watch on YouTube. Notes, links, resources and a full transcript are below. Show Notes On being a ‘secret seeker’ Following the breadcrumbs of insight, interest, and synchronicities How the Three Principles explain what is before other philosophies and traditions Having the courage to leap into the unknown based on inner knowing The importance of coming back to the present moment Getting really familiar with how wisdom speaks to you Resources Mentioned in this Episode 3PGC Raymond Moody’s book Life After Life Azul Leguizamon’s Unbroken podcast episode Bonnie and Azul’s monthly free webinar, What Has Wisdom Shown You Lately? Bonnie and Azul’s The Heart of Service program Transcript of Interview with Bonnie Jarvis Alexandra: Bonnie Jarvis, welcome to Unbroken. Bonnie: Thank you so much. Thanks for inviting me, Alexandra, I really appreciate being here. Alexandra: Oh, my pleasure. I’m so thrilled to talk to you one on one. We’ve been in events together. I think I was trying to recall when that was. I think it was a class with Cathy Casey. That was last year, I think. But anyway, so it’s lovely to talk to you one on one.  Bonnie: I keep seeing your name around the community. So I’m glad that we’re getting this opportunity. Alexandra: Me too. Tell us about your background and how you discovered the Three Principles. Bonnie: Well, like so many people who have come across the Three Principles, I was looking around for a very long time. I know people come to this understanding, or the understanding finds them maybe as a better way of saying it, when people are looking for very different things. For me, my seeking, if you will, started when I was really young.  My dad was in a really horrendous accident when I was four. And this was 1960, giving away my age. I won’t into the details, but he was electrocuted to the point where two silver dollars melted in his pocket and then he fell three stories. And he obviously was given his last rites, no one thought he was going to survive back then. But he did.  And I don’t know, maybe when I was around six or seven, he shared his experience of what happened to him. Now we know of what people call near death experiences. But that term wasn’t even around back then. And I don’t really know what it was he said that impacted me so deeply. But I think the quality of what he was sharing just touched me so deeply, that I knew this physical reality was not all there was, but I didn’t know what else was out there.  I was really young then, I was going to Catholic school, and I learned really quickly to not talk about it in Catholic school, because it was not approved of, and it wasn’t a well known thing. I think that experience made me a secret seeker. I looked at so many different things, I dipped my toes into so many different things once I got out of high school, different religions. I sought out channelers, I did different self help programs that were spiritually oriented. I did a spiritual psychology master’s degree. This was over a period of like, maybe 40 ish years.  In the spiritual psychology program, the organization about 10 years after I graduated from there, they were doing a coaching program. I should say, my other parallel life was that I got a master’s degree in computer science and worked in many corporations. And definitely was a secret seeker through that because it was okay to be in a religion, but everything else was very woowoo. So I really didn’t talk about anything. But I would pop in and out of corporate America jobs at that time in the 80s and 90s. And even early 2000s, it was very easy to leave one job and find another because not a whole lot of people knew a whole lot about technology then. In 2013, I decided that was it. I was leaving corporate America for the last time. It was not where I wanted to be. And one of my very, very close friends became the admissions director of the organization that ran the spiritual psychology program. And she called and said, Well, if you don’t have any plans, which I didn’t, I just knew I didn’t want to continue on the path that I was in Corporate America why don’t you take this coaching program? I was like, okay, I have the time, I have the money, I’ll do it. It turned out to be the best thing ever, because one of the facilitators introduced a little video of someone talking about insight.  At the time, I had to go research everything. So again, it was 2013, there wasn’t a whole lot on the web at the time. But I did manage to track down what the Three Principles were, and it was on a Wikipedia page of all things that I was reading it and, and it just hit me. Like, oh, this is what is before all of those other things that I was looking at, all of those paths that I took, I couldn’t get to the beginning of them, because there was usually a lot of things to do.  And, and so I’d follow something for a year or two and then look for the next thing. I can’t say I understood anything that I was reading, but I just had a knowing. So would you like me to keep going? Alexandra: Yes, please. Bonnie: I was following breadcrumbs really. I kept looking and looking. In 2013, there were some videos, but there wasn’t a whole lot out there. I finally came across that there was a conference going on in St. Paul, Minnesota, like a month later. So I hopped on a plane, and I went to that. And then that led me to meeting the woman who would organize the 3PGC conference. And the woman that was organizing them lived near me. So we got to be friends. Then at the conference, I believe it was there, I learned that Christine Heath, who was one of the original board members for 3PGC and still is on the board, was doing a workshop in Hawaii. And I was like, Oh, I can I can go there. I’m not working now. So I went. I think it was like September, October was the conference. And then November was this workshop. And then I learned about the Pranskys doing the first practitioner retreat in February 2014. Went to that then went to Salt Spring Island.  Then I volunteered to help with the next in person conference that 3PGC was doing and got to know Chris a little bit more. Looking back, it was so much following that little voice that said, yeah, do this next, do this next. But I think when it was happening, I wouldn’t have been able to tell you, that’s what I was doing.  I think it was Chris that asked me, maybe this was 2015, they were trying to start a free webinar program. And it was sort of a start and stop. She asked if I’d be interested in volunteering to do that. So I did and and then it went from one a month to two a month and that program is still running. And then the the woman who originally did their newsletters and updated the first website was leaving and and that’s when I actually went to work for 3PGC very part time and learn more about the organization and then had a ton of ideas about what we could do online because that was my background I started to talk with Chris a lot more and with the then president about what else we could do. And finally I think it was 2018 they they said yeah, go ahead and let’s build the new website. And they needed it done by the current for the in person conference in 2019.  I’m kind of telling the story because looking back I feel like my finding the Three Principles and 3PGC when I did was incredible synchronicity. Because once the new website was done and we could we could create a membership site. I think that’s when I started working for them full time for 3PGC full time and started suggesting online programs and that wasn’t really a well known thing at the time.  The board was a bit hesitant because getting the feeling in person was something they just weren’t sure of, if that could be sort of transmitted or really felt across the internet, but we finally said, Yeah, let’s do it. And we were originally shooting for a 48 hour conference, but it turned into like 54 hours of continuously running sessions, which was a lot of work to put together but it turned out to be incredible. People loved it, we had something like three or 400 people participating, people who couldn’t travel to the in person. It truly was a global event, and it was run at time periods where anybody could watch it.  And here’s the synchronicity of it. We ran it the last two days of February and the first day of March of 2020. And then the pandemic. And so we were set, we were all set up the board could see this was a great platform to do things and so we were able to build a practitioner program through and we had maybe four or five incredible programs. Not full on conferences, but programs where people could really participate in. And we were able to to really keep sharing this understanding when everybody had stay at home, basically.  So it was again, looking back, like, while I was in it, I didn’t see the beauty of following the breadcrumbs and the timing of it. But looking back, it’s like, wow, that was perfect timing for somebody like me to come in, and do it, because I just happen to have the right skills to help them out. And yeah, so that’s how I got involved with the three principles and 3PGC. Alexandra: Wow, that’s so great. I have a few follow-up questions then.  For our listeners, 3PGC stands for Three Principles Global Community. So it’s sort of like the governing body, for lack of a better word, for the Three Principles.  You said that you felt like the principles explained what was before all the other things that you had been seeking? Could you say more about that? That intrigues me so much.  Bonnie: At the time, I didn’t know what I meant by that. I just knew this was underneath. I dippd my toes in Buddhism and Sikhism, and all sorts of all sorts of self help. And I knew there was something more to all of those things I was looking at. I just couldn’t get to it for whatever reason. Now the words that I would put on it, and now what I understand of it is that the Three Principles truly are the formless principles that explain the human experience. So those are the words I would have put on it now. But at the time, I didn’t have those words.  Even in talking about my Dad’s experience, in looking back at that, what I think now, the quality that I felt, I think was when he talked about the light – a lot of Near Death Experiences talk about seeing the light and he was drawn to this light. And he felt that it was warm and loving and he did not want to come back. He wanted to go through. But in his words, he was told to come back. I think that feeling that he shared when he was talking about that was probably what what drew me into looking for what that was Alexandra: Did that you said you were raised Catholic, so he was Catholic at the time this happened? Bonnie: I was four when his accident happened. So I don’t really remember whether he was a churchgoer before then. I don’t think he ever went. I don’t remember him ever going to church after that, and possibly because of what he felt in that experience, I don’t know. I never talked to him about that.  I remember when Raymond Moody came out with his book Life After Life he coined the term near death experience. We were like, oh my god, other people have this and we talked about it. And this is the thing you didn’t make this. Because I don’t know this for sure, but I’m going to guess, that if he shared this with any doctors or nurses at the time, they probably thought, Oh, you were in a coma, and whatever.  We talked about it a lot, I would say the last six months of his life, and what it really brought for him that I got was, and he lived, this happened to him in 1960. He passed away in ‘98. So he lived a long time after that. What it really gave him was that he did not fear death. I remember talking to him and he said something like, No, I know where I’m going next. I’ve already felt that. So that was I think beautiful.  I think that’s one of the things he gave me is that I have never had a fear of dying either. I’m not really crazy about having to go through what you might have to go through before that. There can be a lot of suffering in that, but with this understanding of the Three Principles that might even give me a different perspective of that statement. That off the tip of my tongue, but in reality, this understanding and and constantly looking and seeing things more deeply. Seeing new insights. You come back with a different perspective on the same thing. Alexandra: Yes, absolutely. I’ve been thinking about this a little bit lately as well. I feel the same way that the idea of death doesn’t bother me at all. I’m interested in what that looks like. And the steps leading up to it, I hope they’re not too painful or terrible.  And then because our experience does come from the inside out, I realized that it is possible to experience peace, no matter what we’re going through. And yeah, so all of that is just so interesting. I could talk about that for hours for sure.  What a fascinating experience your dad went through, and just that idea that he must have thought he was alone in that for so long. And I imagine coming from a Catholic background too he was probably very anxious about ever bringing that up with anybody. Any adults, I guess I should say? Fascinating. Really, really interesting. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. And it makes me wonder, too, about any conflict that he felt? Betrayed. But you know about that experience? Anyway, fascinating. Bonnie: I can look back and say, I wish I would have been in this place where I am now to ask him more questions. But I’m glad I got the opportunity to talk to him about it at the end of his life.  I also just want to say this, a near death experience is not what happened with Sydney Banks. I remember sharing this with some one of Sydney Banks’ original students, and I kind of got corrected. It’s like, this is not what happened. I was like, No, I didn’t mean to suggest that. It’s like he my dad just happened to leave his body and see that there was something else but the experience that Sydney Banks’ had was completely different and deeper and amazing.  Alexandra: That’s a great clarification. Thank you. It’s important for people to see the difference.  So you worked for the three PGC for a while. And I want to ask you two questions about that. I think you’ve already addressed the first one actually, I was going to ask you what did the job teach you and you’ve already talked about looking back and seeing the way that life was leading you in a direction.  It sounds like you didn’t fight that too much there wasn’t too much fight in you. Is that true? Bonnie: That is true.Before listening to your wisdom, I would call it intuition. I’ve always had a strong sense of intuition. I didn’t always follow it. So following the breadcrumbs and just listening to what was coming next, which was not a huge jump for me. But there were certainly plenty of times when I could have said, I don’t want to follow these breadcrumbs anymore. But I didn’t. Something else was saying that keep following these keep doing this. Alexandra: It led you in seems to be anyway in such a nice direction, to something that you needed. Bonnie: I think that’s true. Whenever we really listened to our inner guidance, if there was anything that I would want to share with people, it’s that learning what that feels like or sounds like, or however you you get your guidance from wisdom or your intuition, whatever you want to call it, really get really cozy and familiar with how that feels different than what’s coming from your intellect or your personal wants and desires. Because it really does seem to me it really looks to me, like, that’s the way to go to have a happier life.  Alexandra: Speaking of which, how did you know that it was time to leave that experience? Bonnie: That was a knowing too, I that about mid 2022, I started to get nudges. You’ve done what you’ve come here to do, and it’s time to move on. I did give notice. I think it was the beginning of December of 2022 for two months. I’m kind of a jack of all trades, master of none, when it comes to the online business. So I could do a whole wide variety of things. But in replacing me, it took a little longer because because they ended up having to bring on a number of people.  So I didn’t leave in the beginning of 2023, I waited until everything was completely set up. And then I left at the end of it, I think was September 2023. But again, that was an urge and I didn’t have anything planned next.  That’s the part that can be really scary. It’s the part of leaping into the unknown. I guess that’s what that looked like to me. But I had done that so many times in my life, left jobs without really knowing what was going to be next and everything worked out. So I felt okay doing that.  It’s been incredible what’s unfolded since then. I was pretty busy minded when I was working for 3PGC because I was doing a broad range of things behind the scenes; I was taking care of just a lot of detailed things for the online business to keep running and it kept my mind really busy. I feel like I’ve had this massive download of understanding coming. But I was so busy with details that I didn’t really see what I was, what I was what I could see, because I had so many details on my mind all the time. After I left, it was like this, because I really didn’t have the next thing lined up. There was this vast opening of space. And that was a wonderful opportunity also, to really I let things unfold. One of the things I did was I met Azul Leguizamon. She and I became friends maybe a couple years ago. I kept hearing her name, but I never met her. So I reached out to her one day, and we just really hit it off, and we started talking regularly.  She’s so wonderful. And we would share insights. What we found was, I mean, that’s one of the things we did, we talked about a lot of things. But what was so wonderful about that is that we started to notice how sharing our insight was helping, we were helping each other see more of how we were being guided. It was like hearing what we saw, what was helping the other to look more to see how we were being guided.  One of the things that came out of that, I think we started in November, we decided to offer a free webinar series where once a month we offer an open call to anybody. And we call it What Has Wisdom Shown You Lately. It’s an open discussion where everybody can share or just come and listen.  Then what grew out of that, which I honestly did not really expect at all – I guess I really thought whatever I did next was going to be a technical thing again, because that’s what my background is. But we started talking about what would we do if we did a program to teach this understanding or point people in the direction and help people to learn to share it? And help people start up a business of some kind.  I’m going to say it came through us, we ended up writing a year long program that we called The Heart of Service in like a week or two. And then we put together the webpage. And I think we only sent out three emails and we filled our program. It’s very small, we didn’t want to have a big group. And that’s been incredible. And again, following those breadcrumbs, those nudges. Right? It was just the next thing to do.  It’s been really great. We have guest speakers in it. And it’s just been a phenomenal program so far, and the participants seem to really be enjoying it as well. And we’re in the third month of a year long program. Alexandra: I’m thinking that it really doesn’t surprise me that that’s the way things unfolded after your job with the 3PGC. Because that’s how they happened going into it.  Bonnie: When I first learned about the Three Principles I had a handful or two of practitioners as clients, and I did their online website, membership site, etc. So I really saw myself more as a background person. So I think that’s why it surprised me. Oh, I’m facilitating co facilitating with us all.  Alexandra: That makes sense. I love that.  Shifting gears slightly, one of the things that we corresponded about as we were setting up this time to talk was you said you were really interested in one of the more famous quotes from Sydney Banks.  Why don’t you share that quote with us? And then tell us what you’re seeing in it lately? Bonnie: I’m going to read it because, okay, terrible with remembering quotes. If the only thing people learned was not to be afraid of their experience, that alone would change the world. Alexandra: That’s right.  Bonnie: That quote has so many levels to it. You can read it at first and say, oh, yeah I can unless a gun’s being pointed to my head, I probably don’t really have to be afraid of my experience.  And then as you start to look deep, burrowed into the principles and start to understand like, alright, we really create our experience. Our experience is truly an inside out experience. And there is nothing to be afraid of. And it just goes deeper from there.  So I do that, that is one of my very favorite quotes from Syd Banks. I do have another favorite quote right now, that’s not a Sydney Banks, quote. It’s a quote by Rumi that I probably first learned about 30 years ago. It just has taken on such new meaning for me in the last six months.  You are not a drop in the ocean. You are the entire ocean in a drop.  That’s another one with so many layers, but that has such deep meanings. Like, yes, when you really start to look down this path, when you really start to look at the three principles as truly being principles in the formless, that create everything. And that we are part of and we are people people say and I guess Syd said this as well – I think he would use the words divine mind, thought, and consciousness as opposed to personal mind, thought and consciousness, but it’s really one thing. We have the opportunity to share in that and to listen to the wisdom that comes through that. And, and so we truly are the entire ocean in a drop. That’s just so delicious. Alexandra: There’s so much there isn’t there? And when I heard you say that quote, I felt that thing that happens when something makes the leap beyond my logical brain and it resonates within you. I love that feeling. You mentioned the webinar series that you did with Azul and I will link to her episodes, she has been on the show. So I will link in the show notes to her episode.  Why don’t I ask you what has wisdom shown you lately? Bonnie: That is a great question. Let’s see how to describe this. What I’ve really been seeing is that we all have so much that we can see if we listen to our inner guidance, to wisdom. We also have conditioning; beliefs that are hidden, that we don’t even realize they’re there, until a light is is shone upon them. As my mind got really quiet all the learning that I was absorbing, but not really realizing how much I really saw brought this, I’m going to call it a bubble of additional thinking that sort of unraveled itself. Some of the things I don’t even really know what they were, but I knew I felt so much lighter.  The latest image I have of it was like if you have a ball of yarn, and you hold one end, and you just push it and it’ll just keep going until it reaches the end. It’s like that. That’s what the experience felt like. It’s like just all these beliefs that were so deeply ingrained, that I wasn’t aware of how they were sort of controlling my life, because I would make decisions. Because I thought those were truths, not beliefs that I could see through.  So as that all came to the surface, it was years of weights lifted, and some of it, I didn’t really know what they were in particular, but I knew something was opening. And some were very painful. When I’d see them, because I could see how it drove actions or reactions in my life, that I thought, because I believed it needed a reaction. All of that opening up has been phenomenal.  Around two or three months ago, I feel it’s because I let go of this whole bundle of condition thinking that what I’ve been noticing is that the nudges that I keep getting now, it’s like when we all seem to feel our feelings in different ways. Some people have very specific things in their body, that they feel about their emotions, and I don’t really, but what I do notice is sort of a wave of energy. Like nothing really specific. But what I’ve been noticing is that I’m getting nudges more quickly. As that wave of energy comes in it’s the same nudge, very often, it’s come back to the moment, come back to the moment.  And I’ve got to tell you it’s been the most incredible experience, to keep getting reminded to come back to the moment. I get them when I’m starting to have some kind of judgment or something going on. Because in the moment, that doesn’t exist. When I first started to get this, I was calling it, it’s been pushing me into my puddle of kindness. I could feel so much kindness toward whatever I was judging, especially judgments that were coming against myself.  Since then, I’ve morphed it into this, this ocean of liquid love. That’s what it feels like, it’s like I can nudge back into just taking a dive into it. And even if it’s just for a nano second, and then I pick up that thinking again, I come out of it with such a different perspective; the feeling changes. That’s been luxurious.  And every once in a while, I get to stay in it more than a nanosecond. People will call it being in the flow.  I can be there for a little while longer before thinking takes me back into whatever I’ve decided to make up. And everybody can do that. That’s what everybody can do.  We were taught a lot that now is the only moment there is like, now is as the only thing there is, and it’s so true, it’s like because all our thinking is either thoughts from the past or thinking about the future. And so when you come into that moment, even if it’s just for a nanosecond, it’s no attachment to thoughts. And it’s so beautiful.  So I would say that, that to me, at this time the most significant thing that I would really say that wisdom has been showing me lately, to just keep coming back to the present moment. Alexandra: Oh, that’s beautiful. And I want to pull out one thing you said a little bit earlier in that, which was, you talked about how when some of your beliefs were unravelling, that could be a little bit painful.  Could you share an example with us? Bonnie: You know, nothing is really coming to mind now. But what I can tell you is that I’m not a big crier. But man, I would sit and sob. All the things are coming to light. I’m not even sure if I always knew what it was when I would start. But what I did know is not to try to stop it, not to do anything about it.  When people who talk about the three principles say there’s nothing you have to do, that’s where I think that applies. It’s something that was coming through me. It was coming out of me, it was energy moving through. And there was nothing that I had to do about it. I didn’t have to look for better thoughts. I didn’t have to make myself do something else. I could just sit there with it, and wait for wisdom to tell me what to do next. So to me that’s one of the misunderstandings I think a lot of people have when they come into this understanding.  There’s nothing to do. That’s where I think that applies. It doesn’t mean you’re going to sit on the sofa for the rest of your life and do nothing. There’s nothing you have to do.  Alexandra: I loved your wool analogy, your ball of wool analogy, because it reminded me when I was a kid, my grandmother used to knit a lot, or was it crochet anyway, one or the other. She taught me that when you have a skein of wool, if you pull one, there’s two ends, right? If you pull one of them, it can kind of become a bit of a tangled mess, but if you find the other end, it just comes out effortlessly. It doesn’t get all knotted up in itself, and it almost just sort of falls apart. And it’s all very easy.  That was touching me when you spoke about that. There’s two ways to approach this.  Bonnie: I love that you just said that, because that’s so true. It’s like they’re some of the memory, the condition thinking that what’s coming up. I saw it before, but I was probably pulling the wrong end. I love that. Thank you. I was pulling the wrong end and making the ball even tighter. But yeah, so I got a hold of the right end. It all flowed out. Alexandra: Yes. Bonnie: That’s beautiful. Alexandra: We created that together. That felt really good. That’s great.  As we come towards the end of our time together, I want to ask you, is there anything that we haven’t touched on that you’d like to share with our listeners today? Bonnie: I think I already said this, but this would be what I would share. And that is if there’s anything that you set an intention to do, it’s to really get cozy and familiar with how you hear wisdom or see wisdom. I’m sure it comes to everybody in different ways.  Even when I think about how I connect with that, sometimes it’s just a knowing and there’s no words, I just know what to do next. But I’ve also had times where it’s yelled at me, because I wasn’t following it. So I heard words.   I’m sure it probably comes to people in feeling, too. However that is, if you can get familiar with that, with listening to that, hearing that and distinguishing it from your personal wants and desires it just helps life unfold in a magical way.  There’s no techniques and you can’t make it happen. I think you can set an intention or create an environment with being open. But as far as I’m aware, there’s nothing you can do to make that happen. Other than being open to listening to hearing it. Alexandra: That’s lovely. Thank you, Bonnie. That’s great.  Where can we find out more about you and your work? Bonnie: I do have a very succinct one page website. BonnieJarvis.com  I had a website years ago, but once I started working for 3PGC full time I closed it down and recently rebuilt.  I have a couple of things coming up: there’s the What Has Wisdom Shown You Lately is something that Azul and I do for free every month. And there’s also the year long program that we call The Heart of service that we are talking about doing again, because we are just loving the program. So we set up a waitlist or a notify me list for that.  And then I’m also fortunate enough to be doing another program with Cathy Casey and Mike Heard and that is called, Stress and anxiety are just an illusion. It’s not what you think, or is it? I don’t have all the details of that. I believe we’re going to start in July and it will be for four sessions over four weeks. But more details will come out of that soon. That’s what I do. I have been doing one on one sessions. I’ve been calling them Heart to Heart conversations. That’s all and there is a way to contact me on that website as well. Alexandra: I will put a link in the show notes to your website and BonnieJarvis.com. Bonnie: Thank you. Alexandra: Thank you so much for being with me here today. Bonnie. It’s been just lovely chatting with you. Bonnie: Thank you so much. I’ve always considered myself somebody who was more like, numbers, math and coding oriented and not very eloquent with words. So I hope I was able to share in a way that at least one person is touched by it. If just one person sees something I’d be really, really deeply grateful. So thank you so much. Alexandra: You’re so welcome. And I would bet that way more than one person is going to be touched by what you’ve said, you did a great job. Bonnie: Oh, thank you. Alexandra: All right. Take care. Bye bye. Featured image photo by Matti Johnson on Unsplash The post Listening for Guiding Wisdom with Bonnie Jarvis appeared first on Alexandra Amor Books.

We all have one: an inner critic. That voice inside our heads that is critical of so much that we do. That voice can become debilitating, if we let it. But when we apply what we know about the Three Principles of innate health, we can teach that voice to take a back seat, where it belongs. And, on a positive note, hearing the inner critic can even become an ally in helping us to practice stepping into a better feeling. You can listen above, on your favorite podcast app, or watch on YouTube. Notes, links, resources and a full transcript are below. Show Notes A neurosurgeon’s explanation for the inner critic A reminder about the purpose an unwanted habit is serving How the feeling that comes with the inner critic alerts us to its falsehood On the possibility of having a different experience at any moment The beautiful feeling that’s always available to us How our thinking can be like the grooves in a record Resources Mentioned in this Episode Mind Magic by Dr. James Doty Transcript of episode Hello explorers, and welcome to episode 65 of Unbroken. I’m Alexandra Amor. I’m here today to talk about the inner critic or that negative voice that can dog us all the time. And this is a subject, particularly close to my heart. I feel like it’s something that I’ve wrestled with for a long time and for a long time, couldn’t see it.  Years ago, it was invisible to me, even though it was going on. And then gradually, I became more and more aware of it, but didn’t know what to do about it. And then I came into this understanding, and I put it off to the side. But it’s come up in my awareness lately. And I’ll tell you a bit more about that in just a moment. I was reading a book recently about brain science, called I think it’s either called Mind Magic or Magic Mind by Dr. James Doty. And one of the things he mentioned in there was, how his approach to our inner critical voice or his understanding of it was really interesting. And it was about the evolutionary process that we’ve gone through, and how our brains are wired to look for danger. Given the society that we live in now and how generally safe we are – I hope I can say that about you – that the part of our brain that’s looking out for danger, even looks out for it in our own behavior. So it’s able to be critical of us, or it believes it’s being critical of us, in order to serve a purpose in order to keep us safe.  I probably haven’t explained that, as well as he did in the book. But it got me thinking about the negative voice, the inner critic, that so many of us hear, and maybe don’t hear, that’s maybe silent. I find it at times just kind of running behind whatever else is going on, in my mind, and I’ll talk about in a minute how that doesn’t actually matter if we can’t specifically hear what it’s saying. So that’s some of the good news.  Let’s jump in and talk about this. The reason I wanted to bring it up was that, in the past, we’ve talked about how unwanted habits are working in our favor, even though it might not look like they are. They are a solution, not a problem. And one of the metaphors I use is that unwanted habits are like the valve on the top of a pressure cooker.  The habit itself lets off a bit of the pressure of what’s in the pressure cooker.  So this got me thinking about how that inner critic, that negative voice is contributing to the load of what’s in the pressure cooker, it’s contributing to all the stirred up thinking that’s in there, and not in a good way. It’s adding to the pressure that’s in the pressure cooker. And so that means that in a way I think it would help for all of us to look at that kind of negative thinking specifically, and learn how to deal with it, learn how to resolve it. And so that’s what we’re talking about.  Today, I’ve got three tips for helping you to deal with your inner critic. I’ve been experimenting with the tips I’m going to share for the last couple of weeks, and it really feels good. I’m really really enjoying it. It has opened up a space of a good feeling within me. It has taught me at a new level to not take my thinking so seriously, which I really really appreciate. And like I say I just feel this a greater sense of tenderness or compassion, kindness for myself since I’ve been practicing these things, and so of course, that feels really good. So let’s talk about the first tip that I’ve got for dealing with your inner critic.  The first one is pretty easy, and it’s something you’ve probably been looking at a little bit already. And that is to know that: The thinking that we have going on in our minds is not the truth with a capital T.  Thought, of course is like energy, and it’s moving through us all the time. And it is not the absolute truth, even when it looks like it is. So let’s take an example of you are walking along one day and you trip and fall. And there are so many ways that you can react to that situation. In the past, one of the ways that I’ve reacted to any kind of accidental thing that I do – I drop a bottle and it breaks or I trip and fall or the other day, I bumped my hand on a kitchen cabinet knob, and it’s quite sore – my inner critic really flares up in situations like that. So it really takes a hold, and beats me up and it takes the opportunity at that time to tell me that I’m clumsy, or I should have watched more carefully what I was doing, it really does beat me up a little bit in situations like that. And that’s been a historical pattern.  What I found is that as I’ve been using these three tips that I’m going to talk about, it’s actually been fairly easy to break that habit, given what I see now and what I hope to share with you. So we trip and fall, there’s a lot of negative talk in our heads and whatever that looks like. And so the first thing we can realize is that all that thinking that’s going on, it feels so real. And it feels so true. And it’s so easy for us to live in, in the illusion that everything we think is true, and real. And it isn’t.  How our thinking reacts to a situation like that, when we’re being hard on ourselves, is probably based on historically the way we’ve treated ourselves, and probably the way that we’ve heard other people treat us or treat themselves as well, growing up. What we can recognize, and we’re going to dive into this more in a future tip is that whatever the inner critic is saying in that moment, there are so many other possibilities for what could be true.  So to stay with this example, if I tripped and fell on the inner critic told me, or was beating me up, because it was saying I should have been paying more attention. And that’s kind of the one note that it’s playing on, just by understanding that that thinking isn’t that the truth with a capital T is really helpful.  What can be more helpful to seeing that there’s all kinds of other things that might be true in that moment, as well.  Maybe there was a little uneven spot in the sidewalk and that’s why I fell. Maybe I was getting out of the way, I tried to be kind to someone and just kind of caught my foot. Maybe my shoes are too big. There’s all kinds of reasons that that particular circumstance that could have happened, which simply points out to us that whatever the noise is, the critical, negative noise that’s going on in our heads that’s not the absolute truth with a capital T.  And again, I say, Yes, it does feel like that. And yes, it’s so easy for us to be completely wedded to that thinking and to imagine that everything we think is true. But looking in this direction, about what other possibilities are available to us, is really helpful, especially in this case of dealing with our negative thinking. So that’s tip number one. Remember, you know as often as you can, that the critical noisy thinking in your head isn’t necessarily the truth with a capital T.  The second tip is that the feeling that you have, when that negative or critical thinking is going on, is telling you that it’s not the truth.  So, in other words, we don’t need to turn this into a situation where we’re monitoring our thoughts all the time, and trying to catch them all. Because that actually will take us in the wrong direction. We will add more thought, more pressure into the pressure cooker. So we can let that go. We don’t need to manage and monitor every thought that’s happening.  Our design is built so that it lets us know when our thinking is critical.  The way that we feel when that happens is the alarm bell, or the barometric reading, however you want to call it, it’s the thing that’s going to let us know. And sometimes we can skate past that, especially if we’re used to a lot of critical thinking, and used to the inner critic. And yet, what we can do, as we gradually begin to notice this happening, the feeling that we’re having, and the fact that the feeling is alerting us to the fact that we’re having some negative thinking, it becomes a habit it becomes it becomes a habit in itself.  It becomes automatic to notice what’s going on.  I’ll give you one specific example. I experience a lot of urgency when my inner critic is really flared up. I notice that urgency pretty quickly. So I feel that in my body, I feel it in my solar plexus, like there’s a tightness, there’s a clenched feeling. And then I kind of feel it in my I would say, my chest and my shoulders that I need to, yeah, there’s just this impulse inside me, it’s almost like it’s telling me to run. And what it’s telling me is to go faster, to do more.  I know that that comes from a habit that I picked up. So as soon as I feel that feeling I can be sure that I’ve got some thinking going on, that’s not serving me that the inner critic has flared up. And those feelings in my body will always tell me the truth about what’s going on in my head.  If we’re thinking it, we’re feeling it.  When that happens, I can go back to tip number one, and think to myself consciously, that there’s another experience to be had here.  I had this happen this morning, actually, when I was having a conversation with somebody. And I felt that urgent feeling, come upon me for absolutely no reason. I wasn’t in any kind of a time crunch. So I just did a little bit of silent talking to myself, and reminded myself that that feeling was letting me know that my thinking was not the truth, that I was feeling like there, I was thinking that I needed to move quickly, I needed to get out of the conversation that I was in and move on. And that wasn’t true at all.  Through that little inner process, I was able to relax into the conversation. That didn’t resolve the feelings, all of them, immediately. But I was able to step into a much more peaceful place in that moment by remembering that my body was alerting me to what was going on in my mind.  This brings us to tip number three.  Tip number three has to do with the awareness of the possibility of a different experience.  In that situation that I just mentioned about the conversation I was having, I simply became aware that there was the possibility to have another experience in this conversation with this person I was talking to. Now, we don’t need to get too attached to what that experience is going to be.  For example, let’s go back to the trip and fall example. So you trip and fall, having a lot of negative thinking about it, you notice, first of all, you remember that your thinking is not the truth with a capital T. That’s tip number one.  Then Tip number two, you, again, you’re noticing the feelings in your body, and how maybe you’re having a physical reaction to the thoughts that you’re having, or they just don’t feel good, they just make you feel kind of yucky. So that’s tip number two, you’ve noticed that the feeling the feedback that you’re getting, is that the thinking that you’re having isn’t the truth, and your body is alerting you to that or your experience is alerting you to that.  And then you remember that there could be another possibility. There’s another way to think about this tripping experience. And again, what’s important to know is, you don’t have to know what that alternative is that the universe is there with its wisdom, with its intelligence, and its creativity, its infinite infinite creativity. When we feel like we’re in the grip of a bunch of negative thinking, and this is the reason why this tip is so important, is that there’s always a possibility of another experience to be had. And when we know that it softens things and, and opens them up a little bit.  What I was picturing when I was preparing to do this episode was a tight little ball of string, and it’s all tangled in knots. And when we’re aware that there’s a possibility, for another experience, I just see that tight little ball of string kind of loosen. So you know when you see a ball of wool that’s quite loosely wound, that’s the difference between the tight little ball of string and the availability of possibilities.  So that’s tip number three, being open to the idea that there is always the possibility to have a different experience in any given moment.  We like to feel of course, and our minds like to feel that we’re in control, and that we know the outcome of everything, and we know how things are going to go. But when we can soften a little bit and open up to the idea that there are infinite possibilities available. That, to me, anyway,  creates a much better experience of life. My grip isn’t so tight on it, and it it can flow much more easily through me. That sounds kind of wishy washy, but I guess I mean, it just does, it feels like to me, like, the more open I am to the idea that I’m not in charge, that life is flowing through me, and that it is wise, even when things are going wrong, even when things are not going the way I would like them to go.  I had a different conversation this morning that was difficult and things are not going the way I would like them to go in that situation. And by remembering that there’s a greater intelligence involved and that it is flowing through both myself and the other person I was having in the conversation with and that there are, as I said earlier, infinite possibilities available that could you know, come to light, could occur to someone or could change the situation, that allows me to let life flow to a greater degree within me and just seems to make things honestly so much easier. It lessons my suffering about what’s going on.  That’s the key really, isn’t it, for all of us; we don’t want to suffer. We want to suffer less.  Relying on that universal intelligence, that wisdom that’s always available to us is, to me, it seems one way to be able to do that.  The final thing I want to wrap up with is reminding you I’ve said this before, but I want to say it again, because it’s so connected to what we’re talking about today. A few episodes back, I think I talked about how Michael Singer who’s a spiritual teacher, talks about how there’s really only one practice. And that practice is to relax. That’s the one thing we can do, that will ease our suffering.  That points to exactly what I just said, when we relax, we allow the wisdom of the universe to step in and to flow much more freely through us.  And my friend, Tania Elfersy, who’s been on this show a couple of times, she phrases that slightly differently. She refers back to Sydney Banks who said, over and over again, to look for a beautiful feeling. And that, again, really ties into when we’re talking about this inner critic, that inner critic doesn’t feel good. And when we notice it, when it gives us those signals in our body, another way to say that we can look for the other possibilities are that are available, is to say, look for a good feeling.  There’s a beautiful, or a good, feeling available to us at all times.  It is the thing that will loosen us up, that will change the thinking that’s going on in our heads. When I have a lot of critical thinking, I go through these steps, remember them, I tend to imagine myself stepping into a good feeling, a beautiful feeling. Now, that doesn’t necessarily mean I can feel it all the time. But it does mean that I’m open to the fact that it does exist, that there’s a good feeling to be had.  Even if the needle inside me just moves one little notch toward a good feeling, you know, one little notch away from the yucky feelings that my critical thinking have been giving me that my body’s been giving me that feedback, that’s a victory to me.  Circling back to the brain book I was talking about, I imagine that there is a physical result from doing this. So in other words, we are physical beings, of course, as well as spiritual beings. And we have those physical, neural pathways in our brain. And they can be like the grooves in a record. So when something happens, when we’re triggered, like, your spouse doesn’t load the dishwasher properly, and they never do it the way that you want them to do it. The needle inside ourselves can fall into that groove and just go running with all the usual things that we say about the dishwasher and our spouse and how they never listen and all that kind of stuff.  But by practicing the tips that I’ve talked about today, what’s going to happen is new neural pathways are going to be built. So that needle falling into that old groove is going to happen less and less. And that path is going to be built somewhere else.  In other words, it feels like this is both a spiritual practice and it’s going to have some physical results in our brain. Now I’m not a neurosurgeon, and I’m not mapping my brain at this time. But I suspect that that will be happening as well, as we practice these three tips.  I hope that’s been helpful for you. If you’re someone who struggles with a lot of negative self talk, the thing we often call the inner critic, what I’m realizing is it’s not as complicated to change my relationship to that kind of noise, that kind of negative thinking, as I used to think it was. And like I said earlier, there’s a balance.  There’s a way to do this without monitoring our thoughts and adding a lot more work to be done.  And that’s the balance that I would love to see you strike. And so like I said earlier, this isn’t about monitoring your thoughts. It’s not about managing what you’re thinking, because your design is perfect. And it will always let you know when you’re thinking. And when it alerts you to that with the feelings in your body, then you can do something about it, but until then, you don’t need to worry about it. And when that happens, it’s just very simple. Knowing that there are other possibilities and stepping toward a better feeling, knowing that it’s possible to have a better feeling in that moment. I hope that’s been helpful.  I look forward to talking to you again soon. Thanks for being here. I really appreciate it. And I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye. Featured image photo by Uwe Conrad on Unsplash The post 3 Tips For Dealing With The Inner Critic appeared first on Alexandra Amor Books.

When it comes to our mental well-being and our physical health it can be so easy to look outspide ourselves for answers. Ellen Friedman takes a different approach; she guides her clients inward to connect with the innate wisdom and wellness that is already there. Ellen Friedman guides people home to the sacred space within, where they shift their relationship with themselves, their health, and others. She partners with people who are curious to explore a simple path to wholeness through the inside out nature of life. In addition to having a Master’s degree in Spiritual Psychology with an emphasis in Consciousness Health and Healing, Ellen has a Certificate in Soul-Centered Professional Coaching, and she shares the Three Principles understanding. Her journey has been blessed coaching nearly 1000 divine beings using a human experience to remember who they truly are. You can find Ellen Friedman at HealingHouseCalls.com. You can listen above, on your favorite podcast app, or watch on YouTube. Notes, links, resources and a full transcript are below. Show Notes Seeing the whole person when it comes to healing Noticing how health improves when our nervous system is downregulated Ellen’s personal discoveries experiencing chronic fatigue How mental busyness affects our physical health How fatigue can be a signal that there is pressure on our mental system Are you the source of your energy? How our feelings are a barometer for what’s going on within us Resources Mentioned in this Episode Mavis Karn’s book It’s That Simple Mavis Karn’s Unbroken podcast episode Azul Leguizamon’s Unbroken podcast episode Transcript of Interview with Ellen Friedman Alexandra: Ellen Friedman, welcome to Unbroken. Ellen: I’m so happy to be here with you, Alexandra. Alexandra: I’m so happy to have you here.  Tell our audience a little bit about yourself and your background and how you got interested in the three principles. Ellen: I’m always amused where that story begins every time. I was happily minding my own business, enjoying my career as a physical therapist, when the knock on the door to coach came in 2011. And I was like but I love what I do. I thought you had to be miserable to do something else.  Then I started feeling miserable by not following that. I got in my car one day after seeing a patient and I was like, almost without logic, and I said, Okay, I heard you, I’m coming back. So I began coaching in 2011.  Then, in 2013, in a coach training program, one of the instructors introduced a video on the inside out understanding of stress. At that time, it was a really old video. And I remember the feeling inside me, I can like, remember the chair I was sitting in. I remember the feeling. And then I also remember my personal mind going, Oh, but we’ve got techniques and tools and things to do with people. Alexandra: Moving forward from there was it difficult to get your head around the idea of no tools and techniques? Ellen: I’m not sure because what was more difficult was trying to intellectually figure out what this understanding was. I spent a long time reasoning with what I was learning, comparing it to what I had already known. Seeing where it fit in, seeing where things didn’t fit in. And at that time, at that time, there were so many free opportunities to learn. I mean, there are today, but there were so many opportunities, and you and I could participate in almost all of them. And, there were also many wonderful paid opportunities and workshops and trainings. And, and you didn’t have to choose because there weren’t the abundance that there is today. Alexandra: So this was around 2011 or 2012? Ellen: 2013 was when I first heard that, and then it stayed on the back burner until 2016. But Alexandra, I am so clear that it doesn’t matter how many years you’ve been looking in this direction or exploring the principles because we we all see what we see when we see it. And don’t you love it with when clients just see something that you don’t see? I mean, it’s so fun. Alexandra: Absolutely. Insight doesn’t really have a timeline, does it? I mean, it can happen anytime.  You mentioned being a physiotherapist.  You had an interest in healing, and helping people. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And where that began to if you know. Ellen: Where was the interest in physical therapy health? Alexandra: Well, yeah, healing and those kinds of things. Ellen: I didn’t have any exposure to physical therapy, personally or for family members. So I don’t remember exactly how I landed on it other than healthcare seemed kind of interesting. But nursing didn’t and going to medical school I had no drawn to. The allied health professions sounded fun and interesting and had a couple of opportunities to work as an aide and, and I was like, Okay, I’m going to do this. And so I went to physical therapy school. And different circumstances in school led me down the path of wanting to work with people who had chronic neurologic or new neurologic conditions. So that was a specialty for me right out right out the gates.  What I really loved about that is, you kind of had to look at the whole person; when someone has an injured back or an injured wrist or an injured knee or have had surgery, it can be very easy to be focused on the body part or the joint. But looking back, I was interested in the whole person. And I remember right out of physical therapy school, I had two patients, both of them had very similar strokes, their MRIs looked similar. And they had completely different outcomes. And I was so fascinated by that. Alexandra: Oh, that is really interesting. Wow, that is so cool. So transitioning then, I noticed on your blog, you have a post about rest and its importance. I think our culture is so not wired that way. Rest is almost a four letter word.  Can you talk about rest and its importance, and why you recommend it to your clients. Ellen: I recommend it because it works. Well, there’s so many different things that come to come to mind now. I literally was witnessing miracles or what looked like miracles in the people that I was working with, who had multiple sclerosis, ALS, stroke, brain injury, I worked with a lot of people who survived traumatic brain injury.  When their nervous system was downregulated, they did better, they had less pain, they had less more mobility. And so it just began to make sense to explore that with people and let them figure out what works for them. I worked with a lot of people with MS because I actually trained in a hospital where every patient in the hospital had multiple sclerosis; it was wild that that even existed.  This was before there were any medications to help people with their symptoms. I would notice that almost every one of my patients would be busy doing everything they could before they hit the wall of fatigue, and then they say things like, that’s all I can do for the day or, or I’m okay till noon around them okay till two o’clock.  I won’t get into the details of story, but I’m happy to share it with anyone who who inquires, a patient suddenly went from requiring rest at four hours after she woke up to eight hours. Increasing endurance from four to eight hours seemed impossible. People were taking medications to try and do that. And that wasn’t happening to them while helping.  I noticed that she and what a big part of her treatment program was, was relaxation exercises, and what I call down regulating the nervous system. Rest is the simplest form. Well, maybe not this one of the simple forms of of down regulating the nervous system. I think taking a long, deep exhale is also a very simple way and learning to rest before full exhaustion is so important for all of us neurologic condition or not. Alexandra: Do you meet resistance when you suggest this now to clients? Ellen: Well, I’m just going to explore your question a little bit more because I don’t really think that I suggest it to people. I explore with them what happens when they do. What happens when they don’t? I share stories and then they kind of come up with Well, maybe I could try that.  Now, as a physical therapist, I did recall having resistance. No, I can’t, I have to get everything done before noon, because I’m not good after that. And this other clients, she was like, Oh, I’m good to one now. Oh, I’m good till a couple of weeks later, oh, I’m good till two o’clock, oh, I’m good till three o’clock.  She goes, oh, I never have energy after four. And I said, Really, even after what’s happened? Oh, I can’t. Because if I have energy after four o’clock, then I have to make dinner and I don’t ever want to make dinner for the rest of my life. And I said, I can’t help you with, I can’t help you have energy after four, if that’s what it means to you. But maybe it could mean something else. That’s what I said, maybe it means something else. So the suggestion would come in the form of stories and explorations and experiments I love. I love the idea of experimenting. Because you can’t get it wrong in an experiment. Alexandra: Say more about what that looks like. Ellen: It could look like we’ll just experiment with resting and not sleeping, or just experiment with tuning into your body. What would it look like to go to the gas station and fill your car before the red lights going put more fuel in me? If you fill up a gas tank in a car, when it’s half full, or half empty, whichever, whichever you see it, then it takes less time to fill up the tank. And so when you rest, you are down regulating the nervous system. And there’s so many different ways to do that. It takes less time. We can even experiment in a session with you know, I have a lot of people that used to measure their fatigue, and I’m like, Let’s measure energy instead. Alexandra: So in other words, on a scale of one to 10, this is how tired I am. Ellen: Yes. But I would say, on a scale of one to 10, with 10 being the most energy you’ve ever had, how much energy do you have? Alexandra: I’m going to ask this question from a very personal place. What do you see as some of the causes or some of the primary causes of fatigue? You’re obviously dealing with people with physical issues.  Ellen: Not always. There’s lots of things that create fatigue, and trying to figure them out is no longer necessary for me, for myself, or for my clients. In fact, I’m on the other side of three autoimmune conditions, one of them being chronic fatigue syndrome.  In the past, I would see fatigue as an indicator or as a marker of illness or disease or a reminder that I have something and it doesn’t even enter my mind anymore to be anything other than an indicator of my body saying, Please give me a little bit of rest. Alexandra: That’s really fascinating to me, that chronic fatigue. And so that was something that you experienced yourself.  Can you tell us a little bit about that journey and what you saw? Ellen: I was masterful at avoiding discomfort. I have to be honest, I’ve never really shared with many of my practitioners that I had it because there was nothing you could do. It came at the top many, many, many years ago. It came with a lot of ideas around mental health and emotional health.  But then I had a client I was working with a client that had chronic fatigue and Lyme disease. And she started telling me some of her chronic fatigue symptoms. And it was like, oh, like, she’s waking up with a sore throat, waking up more tired than when you went to bed. I was like, Oh, I guess I guess that I do have chronic fatigue. I thought it was just chronic stress. So back to your question again, I’m sorry. Alexandra: I’m just interested in your experience of chronic fatigue, and how you might see it now, with your understanding of the principles. Ellen: Well, I have to say, it’s really hard to tap into how I felt, because it was for such a long time, and I can’t even say like it started here. But the understanding that I have now is, whether it’s chronic fatigue syndrome, or any fatigue, I think the mental busyness is a huge component to it.  And as I say that I’m aware that I also at one time in my life had a fairly rigid meditation practice. I wouldn’t say that I was feeling any better. My fatigue symptoms were not better when I was meditating, they’re probably better now that I’m living into a meditative life rather than having a daily sit practice.  I think there’s so many mental, emotional, and physical contributions to fatigue. Food, environmental toxins, but mental busyness mental stress is a huge contributor for all disease and illness processes. A huge contributor. Alexandra: I find that so fascinating. Because one thing I know about myself is how busy my mind has been. And it’s gradually slowing down over the years, now that I understand the role that thought plays in our lives, and I still find myself quite fatigued. I described myself as having no stamina. I have very little stamina. I know that that comes from a busy mind. That just seems to be what’s been the constant in my life. I want to ask you, if you had a client who recognized that their busy mind was affecting their levels of energy, how would you approach that with them? Ellen: I don’t know. There’s so many different ways. But let’s talk since you brought it up. Let’s talk about you. Alexandra: Okay, sure. Ellen: I know this identification with or stamina, low activity tolerance, I had that script running for a long time and not too long ago. And one day, I was somewhere and I hiked six miles. I haven’t hiked six miles in years. And I felt so good doing it and I was like, Oh, I guess I don’t have poor stamina. I guess I don’t have poor endurance. I just thought I did.  I just experiment with what would you like to do more up and do it? I remember the days when I would like okay, I can do this much of a walk or I can exercise and I just see how masterful my personal mind, my ego, was trying to control and manage my life rather than let’s just see, let’s just see, let’s just walk out the door.  What if we just know when we turn around? And what if we push too hard and then we have to take a longer than normal rest? From my PT days, I do remember that telling people if you need more than a 10 minute rest, when you get back then you’ve probably done a little too much. So what? So you rest a little bit more. But the background noise of poor stamina, low energy is, can be louder than we think. Alexandra: Yes, absolutely. And it’s interesting to see that attachment to my identity of that idea of not having a lot of stamina or energy. I can almost see myself telling myself that story. Ellen: For sure. An experiment would be what do you love to do? Where do you love to walk or move?  A couple of months ago, we were at a friend’s house and I said, what is that? And she said, it’s a water rower and I said, I’ve never heard of a water rower. It’s a rowing machine that uses water as resistance. I love the sound of water, no matter how it comes; waterfall, ocean, streams. And my husband’s like, I can’t believe how committed you are to the rower every day. Commitment doesn’t come from here. It comes from I just love being on the rower and I love feeling my entire body working. Alexandra: Oh, isn’t that amazing? I love that. As we’re touching on this, it occurs to me as well, that it feels like it’s all on me to manage my energy and kind of parse it out in ways so that I don’t run out of gas.  Ellen: I’ve got a great story for that. Before I go to the story of whose energy is that, the other thing back to just fatigue in general, there’s so many contributing factors. I investigated all of them heavily, especially food and where this food was sourced, and all sorts of stuff around food.  And what did that do? It just added more mental pressure, more mental energy to it. And so sometimes, sometimes not. So now, when I have any kind of symptoms that are I just think, Oh, I’ve got pressure on the system. Just got pressure on the system. What does my body want right now? Does it want some breathing? Does it want to sit down and relax back in a chair or lie down? Alexandra: Nice. Oh, I love that. And then you said you had a story?  Ellen: I was blessed with the opportunity to speak at the London conference in 2019. The conference was Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. My talk was Monday at 1pm and Saturday night, I was committed to officiating a wedding on the east coast of the United States. And I’m closer on the East Coast than I am on the southwest of the US so I landed and officiated the wedding. The next day, got on a plane to Heathrow landed at the airport landed.  As we’re landing, I’m thinking, Hmm, how many hours sleep did I get? Because I was trying. I was like working hard to sleep on the plane. I couldn’t calculate if I had a total of two hours. I remember feeling this oh my gosh, two hours of sleep. How are you going to do this? And I heard and felt, “You are not the source of your energy.” Alexandra: Wow. That is so cool. Ellen: I had so much fun at that talk. The whole day was great. And the whole night, I didn’t have any jetlag, I didn’t have any pressure on the system. I didn’t have any fatigue. I loved how I showed up for myself and for the people that were present. That really stayed with me for everything. We’re not the source. Source is the source, right? Alexandra: Yes. Wow, that’s so great. Ellen: What happened to you when you heard that? I’m just curious, because I felt a shift within you. Alexandra: It’s so easy for me to fall into, it’s all on me. Whatever ‘it’ is. So it can be manifesting something, or it can be in a relationship. It’s all on me. Figuring everything out. So I need to keep hearing this message over and over and over again. Ellen: Is that true that you need to hear it over and over and over again? Alexandra: I guess every time it clicks with me again, it feels good, feels like a new, deeper awareness that it’s not all on me. Ellen: And the other thing that has helped me and the clients that I’ve worked with along that journey is, not only is it not all on me. But I’m always going to have some variation of thinking that it’s on me. And that’s what I love most. That’s one of the things I really love about this understanding is that understanding has helped me to really deepen my acceptance of the human condition, and of me as a human.  And that even though I know something, and even if it’s not just an intellectual knowing but a knowing that I’m not the source of my energy, there’s still going to be personal mind ego tendencies to forget it, or to want to grasp a hold of control, because I see that the personal mind, my personal mind, is masterful for me.  Knowing how to maintain the illusion of safety, security, and control and some insight many years back, had me see the perfection and the mastery of my ego doing that. And since then, I’ve had so much humor when I see it, it’s like oh, you again. You’re trying to pull me into thinking that you’re the source of my energy. Hmm, what a clever way you do that. And it was never light hearted with my relationship with myself before. Like I was serious. Alexandra: It was serious work. Ellen: It was serious.  Alexandra: Something you said there made me want to go a bit deeper. It was around I’ve lost it now. Maybe it’ll come back. Probably it will. We’ll see.  On your website, you have a mention of healing the beyond dis-ease. Can you tell us what that is and what that looks like to you? Ellen: Well, first of all, just the word dis-ease I’ve come to know as lack of ease. When I feel a lack of ease and any part of my life it’s a little tap on the shoulder to move into ease, to move into instead of swimming across the current or upstream to flow downstream with ease.  I’ve been blessed to witness so many people who have chronic illness and I hate to say it this way and I’ve been blessed to have so many winners, so many people have deep, emotional, spiritual, mental healings, deep forgiveness for themselves and others in spite of their physical illness not shifting. Because again, for me just like, source is the source of energy. Source is also the source of physical healing. Alexandra: Right, so it’s in other words, it’s not all on them for the healing, right? I feel personally challenged by living in ease. I guess that’s partly habit. And part maybe partly ego, like you just reflected on; my ego wants to be in control, it wants to manage everything. Ellen: So that’s the way it works. It no longer makes sense for me to try and make it do anything different other than to recognize and become aware that it’s masterful for me and your ego is masterful for you. Alexandra: Right and so holding that lightly, like you talked about a minute ago Ellen: Yes. I think the other thing that can be really helpful is no matter what it is, is like what is it that you really want?  I hear you don’t want the low stamina, the low energy but what is it that you do want? And how would you feel if you had that and 90 percent of the time, it’s the same thing. I mean, that was different people. I’m saying like, take 100 people or 1000 people that I’ve worked with now, it’s all some variation of peace or being in a state of loving and so coming close if that is there something like is that true for you?  Was there another word for you or for your clients that you think that they that people are really seeking? Alexandra: I think peace is the one that resonates the greatest the most with me personally. Ellen: I did the doing on almost anything that was possible to find peace, literally on my hands and knees before I believed in anything to preach toward. I meditated for peace 360 days a year. I medicated for peace. I learned lots of skills and tools and techniques to try and calm down.  I’m laughing because it just makes no sense to try and calm down my human and I think one thing that all that effort did was show me how committed I was to it. When I’m moving away from that peaceful feeling I’m just more sensitive to it now.  It was the habit. I was always back here in some variation of chaos or stress or tension. But now I’m sensitive to moving toward or away from it and I can catch myself so instead of in the past, it would have been like what do we do to not be in this tension place? Not possible. But having this sensitivity of you know that I’m moving more in the direction of peace or away from peace has been really a helpful guide. Alexandra: I want to ask a follow up question. For our listeners, you talked about all the things you were doing to try to achieve peace. What do you do differently now? What’s the alternative to that? You talked about that a little bit about that sensitivity. Ellen: I want to be aware that I want to share that, it sounds like I’m not happy with the things I did in the past. They all made sense at the time, they looked like good ideas. They were helpful, for sure. But I didn’t know what was possible.  And I would say, I still don’t know what’s possible, I think that that experience of living in peace is ever expansive, that I’ll really, really never know the edges of that.  Now, I don’t have to fix or change or do anything when there’s tension. I feel like tension is just kind of like a divine tap on the shoulder waking me up.  I might choose to stay in the tense place for a moment, but I know, it won’t stay. I know it’s temporary. So if it serves me in that moment to stay there, so be it.  And I would say this, this leads me into this. This other thing, this other area that’s really shifted for me is I’ve become more and more aware of how somehow I mastered feeling when I wanted to feel when I wanted to feel it and how I wanted to feel it. So it was very controlling about my feeling experience of life. I thought that because I could feel and because I could cry and because I could get angry that I felt all the feelings. But I really wasn’t not to the level I’m am now.  I’ve become so attuned or sensitive to my feeling state. So I think of like, my anxiety that I was medicated for. And the continuum of anxiety now, I could literally sometimes feel just a very shift, very brief shift in my breath, where it’s more shallow. And I’m like, oh, that anxiety train is driving by. I don’t have to get on it. The wakeup is that I don’t have to get on it.  At the other extreme, maybe there’s some heart palpitations. But maybe that’s when I wake up to there’s anxiety stirring. Or just a pressure and uneasiness. There’s just this continuum and I just love that I’ve become so sensitive to it, that I don’t spend a lot of time outside of a peaceful state. We never really went into this quiet mind, quiet body, but the peaceful mind, peaceful body really makes a difference. I know that’s what has helped me reverse three autoimmune conditions and other things that are currently healing in my body. Alexandra: I want to point out for listeners to that what you’re pointing to, is that the feeling that comes always lets us know the truth of what we’re thinking, it’s always there giving us feedback. So that tension that you described, you use that word, is not bad or wrong or something to be managed or fixed. It’s simply a message. Ellen: An indicator. Alexandra: An indicator letting you know. Ellen: I love the metaphor of a barometer, because what a barometer does is it measures pressure on the system. Sometimes I feel it with a shift of a breath. And sometimes I feel it with a shift in my heart rate, it doesn’t matter. Before the understanding that I have now it would have been like, what do I do to avoid the more severe ones? I’m laughing because it didn’t work. And now it’s like, oh, I caught it when it was here. And sometimes I catch it when it’s here. And ad that’s just the way it works. Alexandra: I love that barometer metaphor. It’s such a good one. And when we think about it, if we spent a lot of time looking at the barometer that’s on the wall and saying, Well, you know, a movement of the needle within this zone is okay. But if you go outside that I won’t be okay. None of that is true, either. Ellen: I love that expansion, too. It’s not true. Alexandra: And I love hearing that, for you being able to rest in peace has helped you with these autoimmune conditions. That’s so extraordinary. And so often with guests on the show, too. And I love hearing this. We’ve tried so many things. And again, innocently, like you pointed out, and those things looks like the right thing to do at the time.  Noticing the difference between knowing that we are peace, versus searching for it is so powerful. Ellen: And for me, it was also a period of time that the knowing that I was peace was way more intellectual than the experience of I am peace. I was really, really kind of, Oh, I know, peace, because I was comparing it to the massive anxiety that I used to write. I’m not saying that I and as I said before, I don’t know, the boundaries, the depths of what peace is available, but I have unknowing that it’s way more than I could ever imagine.  Alexandra: We’re coming toward the end of our time together, I want to ask you to tell us about your project around Mavis Karn’s book, It’s That Simple. Mavis has been on the show, and for the listeners, I’ll link to Mavis’s episode in the show notes.  So tell us what you’re working on. Ellen: Please do because I’ve had so many amazing mentors. But something happened with Mavis and this book.  She wrote a book called It’s That Simple: A User’s Manual for Human Beings. It’s a series of 15 letters. I read one, two, and three, and I woke up in the middle of the night thinking, I’ve got to talk to Mavis about this. This must be a program.  Something said don’t email her, because it could be a short conversation. So let’s do it. Let’s have a conversation with her. So I set up a time to talk to her and I said, Mavis, I woke up at three in the morning and this book needs to be a program. And she said, Well, what does that look like? So we talked about it and she asked me if I would do it with her.  Then a few minutes later, she said, Oh, you know, just an hour ago, someone asked me the same thing. I think the two of you should go off and do it together. So I ran five programs with her virtual assistant Azul, which was lovely. It was our first time working together. We just jumped into doing it.  We had small groups where we invited people to have the book or not, it wasn’t a book club. And in each session I would read a letter and we would have a shared experience of what people heard, where it made sense, where it didn’t make sense, where the exceptions were. I just want to say stay tuned to how it’s gonna come out in the world. I am on a new venture to put it out where it’s more accessible to people, anytime a day or night and not just by enrolling in a program. So we’ll see how that unfolds. It feels like a big, well, I could make a good idea that it’s a big project, and let’s let it but when I remember this feeling that said, there’s something else that you can do with this. And it’s easy. Alexandra: Nice. Touching back in with that feeling. That’s great.  Is there anything that we haven’t touched on today that you’d like to share with our listeners? Ellen: I love that you asked me that. I want people to know that I’m also really committed to educating and informing people on End of Life Options. And in each state, and each country has different laws and rules. But there are some end of life options that are universal, they can happen and that you can do anywhere.  Knowing what you want at end of life and sharing that with people is so important, because in my health care, working days I saw so many families struggle over thinking that they knew what their loved when their loved one couldn’t speak anymore, or share what they wanted, that they that they knew. And we might know now we can always change our mind. I’m really committed to educating as many people as I can on that. And I love that conversation as well. Alexandra: Wow, that’s so fascinating. I love that too. That’s a subject that’s dear to my heart as well, just based on personal experiences. And various other things. So I love hearing you say that.  Ellen: Thanks for having another conversation about that. Alexandra: Ellen, this has been awesome.  Why don’t you let everyone know where they can find out more about you and your work? Ellen: I’m always open to an email [email protected]. My website is healinghousecalls. And I also have a healthcare-coaching.com website where I support health care providers, doctors, nurses and others to know that stress and burnout is optional. Even in the workplace, even in that workplace.  Alexandra: I will put links in the show notes to those things. Ellen: Thank you so much for a fun conversation, and more than fun, meaningful, deeply meaningful conversation. I’m always open to inviting people into a conversation. I don’t buy a pair of jeans without trying them on. So I don’t want to hire someone or think about working with someone before I try them on. Alexandra: Oh, that’s a great way to put it. Thanks so much, Ellen. Take care.  Ellen: Bye for now.  Featured image photo by Alessio Soggetti on Unsplash The post We Are The Peace We Seek with Ellen Friedman appeared first on Alexandra Amor Books.

We usually think of stress as coming from the circumstances that surround us: busy jobs, busy lives, difficult bosses or clients. But what if stress has another origin? What if it comes from the thinking we have in any given situation? Clare Downham is the dedicated mentor you need on your unique journey to unlock your innate potential and cultivate a thriving business aligned with your true purpose. As a certified ILM Success Mentor, she specialises in guiding emerging and established female entrepreneurs to embrace their innate mindfulness and harness it as a powerful tool for success. With a deep understanding of the inside-out nature of our human experience, Clare expertly navigates the complexities of the entrepreneurial journey, helping women to silence the inner critic, dissolve self-doubt and cultivate a strong sense of intuition and self-trust. You can find Clare Downham at ClareDownham.com and on Insight Timer at claredownham. You can listen above, on your favorite podcast app, or watch on YouTube. Notes, links, resources and a full transcript are below. Show Notes On what happens when we ignore warning signs from our bodies The false messages business owners receive about having to be ‘on’ and ‘up’ all the time How motivation ebbs and flows naturally and there’s nothing wrong when we’re at a low ebb On the cyclical nature of levels of personal energy How some of our best ideas come during down or quiet times How we believe we need to be busy all the time and that resting is ‘lazy’ How we so often try to be in a different feeling state than the one we’re naturally in On overwhelm and its one cause How being in the present moment starves stress of the oxygen it needs Resources Mentioned in this Episode Insight Timer Transcript of Interview with Clare Downham Alexandra: Clare Downham, welcome to Unbroken. Clare: Hello. Lovely to be here. Alexandra: Oh, my pleasure. It’s lovely to see you.  Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got interested in the Three Principles. Clare: I was a primary school head teacher. So our primary school in the UK is aged three to 11. I was in primary education for 20 years. And the last five or so I was a head teacher to two different schools. And I became very stressed, although I didn’t know I was stressed at all, I didn’t have a clue.  I knew there were things wrong with me. But I thought those things were what was wrong with me rather than stress as the underlying cause. One day I went into work, fully intending to start my working day and I took one look at my computer. And it was like, it was like I was frozen. It was like, my body just finally went, “No, no more, let’s go, let’s leave.”  I literally did walk out of work. And I never went back in the end. Didn’t know I wasn’t going to go back. I thought it was going to have a nap, and have a little rest for a couple of weeks and then go back. But that’s not what happened.  I was initially diagnosed with depression, because I was burnt out. And it looks very similar. Because all your motivation is gone. You can’t get out of bed, you can’t really do anything. But all the way through they were saying it was depression, I kept thinking I don’t feel depressed, I’m not really in a low mood, I’ve just got no energy, it was like it had been syringed out of me.  It was a messy year. I didn’t work for a year, I was off sick for a year. And through a vast part of that it was all depression, depression, it’s depression. So obviously I was taking tablets, I was trying all sorts of things to cure myself with depression. And it was only really much later on in that journey that I realized that I burnt out and realized actually how stressed I’d been and how, as I learned about stress, how my body had been screaming the warning signs at me. But I had just ignored them or not known they were there.  I didn’t deliberately ignore them, I just didn’t know they were there. I didn’t know that’s what they were telling me. So a year went by, and eventually my governing body and the people I was working for needed to know when I was going to come back. And I just didn’t know. I couldn’t give them an answer because I was still not brilliant. And so in the end, I had to resign.  I resigned on the first of April. April fool. I think it’s quite funny that I resigned the first of April, and then didn’t know what I was going to do. Obviously at that point, apart from just, it felt like a massive, I actually got a lot better once that weight had been almost like my thinking. Now I know my thinking about going back to work was really not helping my recovery. So I didn’t know what I was going to do.  Then I got a random email 10 days afterwards which invited me to train to be a hypnotherapist. This is in 2016 I resigned. And so I thought, well, I’m interested in that  thing. I had had a bit of hypnotherapy, and it helped a bit. And I thought, You know what, I’m going to go and I’m going to go and do hypnotherapy. So that’s what I did. Not really with the intention of starting a business just, well, it’s something to do you know, something to learn, something new, I’m always interested in learning new things. And it was only like partway through the course. Well, near the end of the course, when they started to say they started talking about clients, they started talking about business, started talking about marketing, Facebook, all these things and only think about in terms of business.  It seemed I was starting a business completely by accident. That’s my first accidental business. I didn’t say it was a first accidental business. So I started this business and I guess it was probably about the autumn of 2016 when I started going networking and things like that. I started to go to these networking events where they would have somebody do a little 20 minute presentation. And a lot of them were  self development and there was a lot of messaging around, “You have to have all these big goals and you’ve got to have a plan. You got to have like a 12 week year plan, you got to have a three year massive or a five year plan and you’ve got to stick to these plans.” She was scheduling your day and there was all this stuff about time management about managing tasks.  What I  picked up from that, and wrongly held maybe, the business world seems to think this is right was that motivation wise I was supposed to be a straight line. Never fluctuating, never changing, just be motivated all the time supposed to get up every day and just smash through everything, and hustle and if I didn’t do that I was going to be a failure as a business owner.  As a result of that, I get into all these different self development things. So I’m reading books and listen to podcasts, I’m going on endless courses. And then I’m doing all the therapeutic look into the past. What’s wrong with Clare? When did she become broken? Was it as a child and those sorts of things? Counseling more, obviously, that was a hypnotherapist plenty hypnotherapist I could tap into, I was just trying so hard. Oh, Miracle Morning, every day, get up, do this  ritual in order to make yourself be okay.  That went on for about three and a half years. Now when I say that to a lot of people to go, Oh, God, I was like, for 20 years or whatever. So actually, I think three and a half years, I was very fortunate. It was only three and a half years I was like that. Then in January 2020 I can only say a miracle happened really. And again, I don’t know miracles, accidents, luck, whatever you want to call it. So a friend of mine, Peter, had just finished his training with Michael Neill. He had just done the Super Coach Academy. And he just put a post on Facebook saying, I just need some people to sort of practice on to finish my qualification off. And I was like, Oh, you can fix me then. Come on, put my hand up. Like, come on. Let me come.  I went to his office. He doesn’t live far from me. I cried through the entire first session. I can’t even remember what he said to me. Only I remember him drawing a stick person. We’d like a lot of squiggles above its head. And I’ve seen Michael Neill and other teachers draw that picture since. I remember that but I don’t remember much else other than I cried and cried and cried. There was so much frustration that I’d done all this stuff. I’ve done everything the blinking gurus have told me to do and I still wasn’t motivated all the time.  That was the starting point. I had some coaching with him. I then started to really listen to Michael Neill’s stuff first of all, I guess. He was my route in. Then lockdown came along. And my in person hypnotherapy business went poof. There it was gone, literally overnight. But actually, that was really fortuitous in the end, because I didn’t really want to do hypnotherapy anymore, anyway.  That opened up quite a lot of space for me to look in this direction. And trained then with Jules and Rudy Kennard. My fiance and I were in the last cohort of people doing pure Three Principles stuff, they’ve moved on to something a bit more multi dimensional, shall we say since then. Everything changed. Then my business began to be more about that. Nothing looks the same as how it did, particularly other people. They used to be really annoying. There are a lot of synonyms. That’s really good. My main thing was ranting about other people in their behavior and wanting other people to be different. Yeah, that’s gone. And life just looks a lot more easy.  So that’s how I came across it. And since then I’ve stayed in the conversation, is what they say, don’t they? I’ve explored lots of different teachers, done bits and pieces of all sorts of different things. Listen to a lot of podcasts. And at the moment, Amy Johnson and Clare Dimond seem to be my main people that I’m  connecting to. I’ve loved it. It’s been amazing, really. And I’m so grateful that those little accidents happened along the way. There’s way more bits of luck or bits of miracles, I guess, to get me to now. Alexandra: Looking back at your experience in the primary school, what do you see now about why you burned out? Clare: Well, first of all, not because of teaching. The first thing when I say I was a primary school head teacher and I burn out people just Oh yeah, it’s such a hard job. Actually, my working life was the bit that was okay. I always felt good at work. I never really felt stressed out about work or anything related to work, although I had taken on a new headship in the autumn of 2014, and obviously I burned out in March 2015. I think it might have been the straw that broke the camel’s back that it was a new headship. There’s a lot to see very quickly when you’re in your second headship because in your first headship you don’t know that much. So you can’t really see the problems. Whereas when you go into second headship, and you’ve left your lovely school that you’ve just made, all nice and pretty and wonderful, you go into this new place, and you’re like, ah everything’s wrong. There’s a bit more speed to it. And yet, there’s a lot coming in. But really, it wasn’t really that. I also separated from my husband in the autumn of 2013.  And then just, the only thing I can describe it is, now I look at it, and I know, I was trying to control the world out there in order to make myself feel okay. I was doing a lot of online dating. That’s not a great place to be, if you’re a control freak, let me tell you, because they don’t behave Alexandra and they behave appallingly. So many of them. So that wasn’t good.  I also was going out a lot more, doing a lot of salsa dancing, I was going out partying with my friend. I had a friend who was also a head teacher and also split from her husband. You can just imagine what those nights were like; they involved a lot of wine, and blurry memories. But you know, there was a lot of that there’s a lot of doing doing a lot, and trying to find it out there.  So I was tired all the time. And my mind was very busy with what can I do next to make myself feel better? So it was really all the outside world stuff. That was the problem. And how I was trying to control all of that, to make myself feel okay. Alexandra: I loved what you said about motivation. And you work with a lot of female entrepreneurs. I had a little bit of an aha moment when you said that; of course, our motivation goes up and down. It ebbs and flows. In the entrepreneurial world, there’s so much information brainwashing  about jumping out of bed and achieving your goals and always feeling 150%. And of course, that’s not the way it works.  I’m sure seeing that for you was such a lightbulb moment. Clare: Massive. I think there’s the word acceptance or surrender or something like that comes to mind.  I’m 53. So I don’t have a cycle of my own, over 28 days now, but I  have been looking at like, How does my energy change? Because it still does seem to have these kinds of patterns to it and looking a bit around the moon. There was a new moon last week and I just noticed that I was very much hunkering down and I was writing things. I do stuff on Insight Timer, and I didn’t want to record anything. It wasn’t in that energy to record and then at the beginning of this week, I’m ready to record again. I’ve woken up, I’m ready. I’m energized to do that now.  And like last week, if I went to a networking event in person yesterday, if I tried, I couldn’t have done that last week. I just wasn’t in that energetic space. But I think that one of the things especially for female entrepreneurs, is that you have to remember that the world of business has been – and this is nothing against men – but it’s been created by men, for men by men, just because that’s the nature of how it’s been. The world of work was a man’s world up until not even 100 years ago to be fair, you know, it’s not even been 100 years that women have been in the workplace properly.  I look at my fiance and he just is the same every day. He just gets up and he just like yeah, I’m doing this thing and I’m just singing. I’m like that some days and then other days I just want to cry and sit in a coma. And he doesn’t seem to get that. He’ll ask, “What’s wrong?” Nothing’s really wrong. I’m just crying and just feel a bit flat and I’m just not in the mood. I’m this undulating energetic thing. I’m not a man and I’m sure men fluctuate as well, but Bruce just doesn’t seem to. I speak to a lot of women who say, Oh, no, my partner just gets up. He’s just the same every day. He doesn’t seem to really half this cycle thing going on. So I think there’s there’s something about self compassion, knowing that and also realizing that sometimes in those quiet times is actually when I’m still around, I’m slower. Some really cool ideas come through, because I’m not dashing about doing everything and trying to do everything.  Some of my really cool things that have felt like downloads or channeling or whatever you might want to call it have come in those moments when I have been like, oh, I don’t really want to do anything. I just want to sit about and read a book, or whatever. That’s when that stuff comes through. Alexandra: Absolutely. In fact, just last week, I had a day where I was wanting to be working, had some stuff that I wanted to do and just couldn’t do it. I spent the afternoon just lying on the couch, staring at the ceiling. Because that felt like the thing that I really wanted to do.  Where I tend to go with that is, oh, no, I’ve lost all my motivation. That’s what starts to happen in my head. I’ll never get it back. I’ll be lying on the couch staring at the ceiling for the rest of my life.  Instead, what happened is when I got up to go and do and make supper, I had two ideas for new programs. So I completely agree about that. The quiet time is often the most fertile time for sure. Alexandra: In your work, do you find that female entrepreneurs struggle with burnout? And if so, how does that look for them? Clare: I think it’s not uncommon. I think there’s something around how many different things, women, whether they’re entrepreneurs, or they’re in work, are managing, there’s still there’s still, like, we’ve moved full on into the workplace full on into entrepreneurialship. But we’ve not dropped any of the stuff in the house. We’ve kept it all. So we can’t do it all.  I also think it’s where we’re trying to get to the pushing and the forcing, and the keeping going, when really, we should be resting and really tuning out from our bodies completely and utterly. When I was burning out, my body did a little tap on the shoulder and then it gave a little light tap on the cheek, and then it was literally punching me around their head going, when you’re going to listen to me, I’m dying here. And you’re not doing anything about it. We just don’t listen. So this busyness, we’ve got loads going on, there’s home, there’s business, there’s all the stuff. There’s also this sense that we’re supposed to be energetically on all the time. So we’re not resting, we’re not taking care of ourselves. And eventually that you can’t, so sleep starts to go around. I mean, that for me, it was massive.  My sleep went completely to pot. And then we go treat the sleep as if it’s the sleep that’s the problem. It’s not really the sleep. That’s not the problem at all. It’s the underlying stress and moving towards burnout. And so eventually, it’s running on this level of adrenaline, it’s just not sustainable for the body.  One of the things I often talk about is, are we going slowly enough and quietly enough to hear the body saying? When our eyes start to feel tired and we’ve got a bit of a headache because we’ve been in front of his screen too long. I don’t imagine many people are even listening to that. I can sit here, I’m middle of doing something and I don’t even go to the loo. I don’t really need the loo, I’m just going to finish this little thing that I’m doing.  No, go to the toilet. Start there. Just start there by listening to the very fundamental signal from your body that is saying go to the toilet. Eeven that we’re not doing, we’re not listening. But we have to be able to go slow enough to do that. And we have to be willing for things to change, and I’m not sure with the drive for money and things and just this concept of success, which is made up anyway. Whether we feel that we can afford to stop or slow down that feels like it’s too much of a sacrifice, I think really, so people keep going and keep going until it’s too late. Alexandra: Right, and especially when we feel like, the only thing that’s going to get us to where we want to go is that drive forward. We don’t understand the value in resting and taking care of ourselves.  I see that so clearly, as you’re speaking the connection between, of course people have a hard time relaxing, because that looks antithetical to what they’re trying to do.  Clare: I’m just thinking then that The L Word, the lazy word comes up, doesn’t it? I’ve just been on a call earlier with a group of women and one of the women said that on Sunday, I mean, not even on a normal working day, on Sunday, she actually just laid on the sofa and put Netflix on. And it took her a big leap to do that. Because a big pushing through some discomfort, because it was like, Oh, I shouldn’t be doing this. “I should be out doing something. I should be in the garden. I should be busy all the time.”  She had headache, and then the headache went away. And she felt so much better and so much energized, because she just had rested. Sometimes you watch something on Netflix, it just  washes out for you a bit, doesn’t it? And it’s just what you need. She was saying how difficult that was to just lean into that and allow that to just happen. Instead of fighting it and having a story about what else we should be doing. Alexandra: One of the other things I wanted to ask you about is you mentioned this on your website about how managing our feelings isn’t the answer.  Clare: I guess fundamentally, when I was in the thick of all that self-development stuff, that’s what I was trying to do was trying to manage my feelings. I was trying to just all the time be in a different feeling state than the one I was in.  What I see about that now, and it’s that it’s still like developing is that that takes quite a lot of energy. And also, it’s fundamentally impossible to manage your feelings. You can’t do it. So that’s the underlying premises, actually, you can’t do that, it doesn’t really work that way.  But when we are very focused on an emotion that we don’t want to have, then we’re spending a lot of energy thinking about that emotion and trying to fix it, it just makes it worse. It just makes it more unpleasant. And actually, I’m seeing it now as fighting against the present moment. If what is present now is a feeling of anxiety, then, if I sit with that, then I’m really in the present moment, because I’m with this feeling of anxiety.  What I’ve noticed when I do this, I feel like it’s almost like when you pump a balloon up till it’s like really, really full. And then instead of knotting it, you let it go, and it goes whizzing around the room. And so it’s got all this energy and then it just goes up and it just sort of falls to the ground, no energy left.  When you watch these emotions, and you do that non judgmentally, that’s about how long they last. They whiz round and they move around and then they just disappear. I think that’s because you’ve fallen into the present moment, you’ve surrendered, you’ve accepted whatever word you want to use. And it’s just there.  What I see often as well in the female entrepreneurial community is that there’s always work going on to try and feel differently. And it’s taking a lot of time so nothing’s getting done. Like a fraction of the thing if they do because the whole idea is they want to get more done but they’re spending so much time and energy on managing feelings, they’re getting less done.  Whereas actually what happens when we just sit with the feeling and allow it to be there it passes anyway. And then what I find comes very quickly after that is a feeling of lightness, a bit of clarity, often the next step often like, Oh, do you know what, that’s what I need to do next. And then almost like this inbuilt motivation or energy to go do that thing just sort of comes with that energy built in.  Whereas if we’ve spent all that energy, even if we did get rid of the feeling, by the end of all that manipulation, and trying to get rid of it, and whatever we might be doing to get rid of the feeling. By the time we’ve done all of that we’re tired, then we’ve got nothing left to go do the thing that we might have wanted to do.  And the other thing is, as well as that in business, you’re often going to compete against things that feel uncomfortable, like putting yourself out there, let’s just call it that marketing speak. But putting yourself out there is going to sometimes mean that you’re going to butt up against some  growing edge of yours. And actually, you could spend hours trying to get rid of this awful feeling so that you can then go do the thing.  But actually, the most potent way to get rid of that is to do the thing. That’s the most powerful thing that just allows that whole limitation to fall away. So instead of going round the houses trying to get rid of the feeling, trying to manage the feeling, just do the thing, like not from a place of hustle. Because those feelings aren’t telling you about the thing anyway. The feeling doesn’t come from that thing.  The feeling is coming from how you’re thinking about the thing.  And when you do the thing, that thinking  falls away. So when you see it in that light, it just gets easier. Once you know that that feeling isn’t information about the thing you’re about to do, you can then do it. And that’s got to be quicker and more efficient than going round and round, is trying to chase the feeling away before you can do anything. Alexandra: Absolutely. For our audience, I’m in a class with you at the moment about Insight Timer. And there have been a couple of things that I’ve bumped up against in that exact way, and I noticed myself, I might spend a bit of time backing away from whatever the thing is, and thinking about it a lot and, and worrying about it a bit.  And then eventually when I did it, it’s never as hard as we think it’s going to be. And all the thinking that I had about that just drops away. So now I’m not carrying the weight of all that thinking that I had about whatever the thing is. Clare: Absolutely. Alexandra: We touched a little bit on how women have entered the workforce, but they haven’t let go of the things they were already doing. Raising children, taking care of the house and that  thing.  What is overwhelm then, as you see it? Is it tied into having too much to do or is it something else? Clare: I don’t think it’s helped by having too much to do. However, I do think there’s one thing about being overwhelmed and that’s thinking you’ve got to do it all now. It’s as simple as that.  If you’ve got a list of things to do, you only think about one of them and you go do that one thing to completion, and you cross it off, and then you go do the next thing, then you may not get it all done. But you will just be very present. And you’ll just be very focused on one thing.  I think tied into that is seeing how much thinking we might have about completing the tasks on a list. I mean, there’s that thing, isn’t it? I’m sure it’s absolutely true for most people, you’ve got a list of 10 things, you do eight of them and you mega focus on the two that you didn’t do.  So there’s noticing if we tend to not be very compassionate to ourselves or beat ourselves up about not doing whatever things we’ve not done. Realizing we’re not superhuman.  Tied into that, is when we’re calm and when we’re present, I think it’s easier to say no. And sometimes we have to say no, or we have to ask for help.  I was rubbish at asking for help. I was drowning in my life. And nobody knew. Nobody knew how ill I was getting, because I hid it very, very well. I didn’t ask for help. So there’s all the stuff that is about us needing to keep up some  facade of being okay all the time. Because we don’t want to be a burden, and we don’t want to get in the way, or we don’t want to seem to be a problem in some way. But fundamentally overwhelmed is thinking you’ve got to do it all now. Alexandra: I love that. It’s such a simple definition. And it resonates with me so much. I think of times when I felt overwhelmed and I had so much thinking about whatever was going on. And it really does feel like that pressure. Oh, it all has to happen in the next five minutes. And that was all made up, of course, by me. Such a good point. I love that.  When someone is experiencing that stress, or a different stress, what do you see about dealing with that in a way that’s fresh and new? Clare: The first thing is just that phrase, dealing with it, as if it’s something to do, rather than something to be seen in a different way. Because I mean, I’ve got a workshop stashed away somewhere, it’s available if you want it. It’s called The Truth About Stress. And it just takes people through the difference between pressure and stress.  Absolutely, in this crazy bonkers world that we live in, where everything’s too fast, and we’re wired into [our phones] all the time. And it’s harder to switch off and all these other things are going on, then there’s pressure but that’s not the same as stress. That’s our relationship with the pressure.  Let’s say we’ve got a busy job or a busy business. And yeah, we could literally go into that business, work our socks off all day. And if we can just, like, close the office door at five o’clock, and go chill out with our family, and have a lovely evening, be really focused on that when we’re doing that, then we won’t experience stress. It just won’t work like that.  In this workshop, I talk about the fact that on a Sunday night, loads of people don’t sleep because they’re already in the working week. And they’re already thinking about what’s to come and how much they’ve got to do and everything.  And equally on a Friday afternoon. Everything goes really well, everybody’s really light hearted, and it’s all cool, because actually, already they’re thinking, oh, I’m going to the beach that weekend, or I’m going to do this with my kids. The thinking is already thinking not even the job is like, Oh, it’s just really easy to do exactly the same, the same things that they were on Wednesday afternoon, or Monday morning. But all of a sudden, it all feels a lot lighter, because their mind’s already traveling forward in time.  As I’m saying that I’m just thinking, if you really in the present moment stress can’t survive, it can’t be there. That would almost be like starving of oxygen, it just wouldn’t be able to take hold. And what’s really interesting about that, from my teaching background, is that obviously teaching is seen as a very stressful profession. I think that is because teachers are not very good at being in the present moment. They are when they’re in the classroom. So a lot of teachers will say I love being in the classroom.  But the rest of the time is really stressful. And that is because in the classroom, when you’ve got 30 kids to manage, you can’t not be in the present moment, because they’ll eat you. They will actually eat you if you’re not properly on it. So when you’re in the classroom, even if you’re dealing with quite a difficult group of children, you’re actually very, very present.  Whereas the rest of the time teachers are fast forwarding through their lives all the time. So in primary schools in this country, the day is broken down into little chunks, obviously, the terms and then there’s a holiday and so all the time teachers are counting down counting down, when’s the next holiday, when’s the next holiday? And then when they get into the holiday, like, Oh, I’ve only got three more days and that’s working. And so they’re always like they’re always out of the present moment.  I think that’s a massive factor in how stressed people are in not just in teaching them sure but in other jobs. But if if we are 100% in the present moment, all we notice when we’re not, and therefore fall back into the present moment, I don’t think stress can get a foothold. It’s like it trying to get up a greasy pole, it can’t do that. If we are in the present moment. I think that’s a quote: the present moment is a greasy pole to stress. Profound. Alexandra: That’s great. I can really see what you’re saying, because I’m thinking back to my corporate life, the brief moments I’ve had in corporate Canada, and sitting in a meeting was always really stressful for me. And it wasn’t because the meeting was stressful. It was because I was thinking of the three other meetings I had to go through that day. And I was thinking about the emails that were piling up in my inbox while I was sitting in the meeting. It’s such a good point.  And teachers too, especially it feels like a calling.  It feels really sad to me when a teacher expresses feelings of burning out, because this is the thing they felt called to do. And yet they can’t manage the stress of it. Clare: Definitely is. I don’t know what it’s like over there. But over here I think it’s like 30% of left within the first three years or something. They graduate and go into teaching. Dropping like flies. It is a shame. Alexandra: As we start to wind up here a little bit, I just wanted to ask if there’s anything we haven’t touched on today that you’d like to share? Clare: Nothing that I can think of off the top of my head. Alexandra: Could you tell us about Insight Timer: what that’s like for you and maybe a little bit about that part of your business? Clare: That’s been just such a wonderful journey. When I first found the platform, I didn’t really engage with it fully. I didn’t really know how useful it could be in my business. But it was this time last year, so may 2023, that I really started to get active on the platform, and it’s just so much fun. I have a lot of fun.  This afternoon, I’ve just been  pondering my thoughts on what new courses I might make and what are the content I want to create and that sort of thing. I do find that the creative juices for it really, really flow. I think that’s because I used to create a lot of content for social media.  I was very, very active on LinkedIn. I mean, very, very active, ridiculously. So to be fair. And it never felt like creating a link for insight time. And I think that’s because that you can see your impact. I go on every day, and there’s all these beautiful reviews, and there’s people on my courses saying thank you, this has completely changed my general perspective. Or on my lives, people saying this is just what I needed to hear today. And that sort of thing. So you know that you’re having an impact on the thing in our  work. You know, actually, we do want to earn a living, it’s lovely that you get paid on Insight Timer as well. But it’s just seeing that impact, just getting that feedback to know that what I’m saying is changing people’s lives. And it’s giving people a nicer, happier, more peaceful experience of life.  That is, is huge, really, and you don’t get that from posting on social media, you might get the occasional nice comment, but everybody’s too busy on there. Whereas on Insight Timer, people are really going to find help. So they really are appreciative when they find something that is helpful to them. Alexandra: So true, and it’s such a different atmosphere than your typical social media platform. Not that it is social media, but just the fact that for someone like you or myself, who feels called to teach and share and try to help people, it’s such a better fit than just shouting into the void on Instagram, or whatever it is.  Clare: Spitting in the wind. I often say nothing’s seems to be landing energetically, it feels more  aligned as well you know that, that we are being rewarded financially for the content that we’re sharing and the help that we’re giving people. That feels quite significant as well.  Because I mean, on social media, there’s only one group of people benefiting financially. They own the platform. That’s right. It’s very aligned. Alexandra: Lovely. That’s great. Well, thank you so much, Clare, for being with me here today.  Can you tell our listeners a little bit about where they can find out more about you and your work? Clare: Yes, so I have a website called claredownham.com. And I do have a nice little gift that people might want to check out. It’s called the Letter to the Inner Critic.  It was one of those things that came to me and one of those quieter periods that I just allowed to happen. It’s quite fun, but it’s also quite poignant in terms of my own changing relationship with that voice in my head, that seems to twitter away nonsense at me. I think it’s really helpful to people.  So it’s claredownham.com/letter. That’s my website. And people can download that letter there and hopefully enjoy reading it. Alexandra: I will put links in the show notes so people can find that at unbrokenpodcast.com. Well, thank you so much, Clare. I really appreciate you being here with me today. Clare: Thank you. It’s been an absolute pleasure.  Alexandra: Bye bye. Featured image photo by Jackie Tsang on Unsplash The post Stress Relief for Female Entrepreneurs with Clare Downham appeared first on Alexandra Amor Books.