159: Ana Mourão: Privacy-first data literacy and modernizing legacy martech at a global enterprise with data templates and POCs

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Mac Reddin, Founder and CEO of Commsor. Summary: Mac treks through the Jurassic wilderness of modern sales, where outbound campaigns cannibalize themselves while AI-powered sequences are degrading response quality by the day. Real marketing power flows through human networks, forward-thinking companies are transforming their SDR teams into relationship architects who measure success through network depth and authentic engagement. Be the team that does better. Your competitive edge lives in human connections that no algorithm can replicate, requiring a complete rethinking of how we incentivize and measure revenue team success.About MacMac is a career-long entrepreneur, his first business was a gaming network built on top of Minecraft which peaked at 150k users per dayHe went on to create various bootstrapped businesses over the course of 5 yearsHe created a substack newsletter for the community space which eventually evolved into an actual community of over 10k people One day he took part in a no-code hackathon and the idea of Commsor was born, initially a community reporting and metrics platformToday Commsor is a 40-person company focused on curated introductions and building the go-to-network movementThe Origin of the Dinosaur Brand Came From a TypoA misspelled tweet transformed Commsor's brand identity forever. Someone wrote "Commsaur" instead of "Commsor" on Twitter, sparking an organic evolution that proves how authentic brand moments outperform manufactured marketing strategies.The story unfolds with raw honesty from Mac: "It became an inside joke, then our internal branding, and eventually our entire visual identity." No marketing committees. No focus groups. No desperate attempts to retrofit meaning into the accident. The team simply recognized the genuine enthusiasm building around their accidental dinosaur mascot and rolled with it.Consider these organic moments that cemented the dinosaur's place in Commsor's DNA:* A casual Slack screenshot sparked employee excitement* Internal conversations naturally incorporated dinosaur references* Team members added dinosaur emojis to their social profiles* Customers started associating the brand with its prehistoric mascotThe business impact materialized in unexpected ways. One prospect lost Commsor's name but remembered the dinosaur. They scoured LinkedIn for employees with dinosaur emojis in their profiles, found the company again, and booked a demo. This kind of brand recall demonstrates how authentic visual elements create deeper connections than carefully crafted corporate identities.Mac's experience teaches a powerful lesson about modern branding: manufactured meaning falls flat. When the team needed a new logo, they faced zero resistance to the dinosaur concept because it already represented their culture. You can't engineer this kind of organic brand evolution in a marketing workshop or through trend analysis.Key takeaway: Authentic brand moments emerge from genuine team interactions and customer connections. A typo-inspired dinosaur logo drives more business value than countless hours of strategic brand planning because it represents something real: a company culture that embraces creativity, humor, and happy accidents.Why Your Mass Outbound Strategy Cannibalizes ItselfMass outbound marketing operates like a ravenous snake devouring its own tail. Every blast campaign you send erodes response rates across the entire ecosystem, forcing you to send even more emails to hit your targets. Mac draws on the ancient Ouroboros symbol to illustrate this self-destructive pattern playing out in marketing departments worldwide.You feel the tension daily: outbound outreach serves essential business functions. Your team needs to:* Connect with potential podcast guests* Build strategic partnerships* Source vendor relationships* Develop sales opportunities* Nurture industry relationshipsYet the industrialization of this process through purchased contact lists and templated messages has created a toxic environment. Response rates plummet while marketing teams double down on volume, hoping quantity will save them. The math gets uglier each quarter: 10,000 emails become 20,000, then 50,000, as engagement metrics spiral downward. Your carefully crafted messages drown in an ocean of automated noise.Mac points to the last two years as a breaking point. Marketing teams hurtle toward catastrophe like Thelma and Louise, eyes locked on the dashboard metrics instead of the cliff ahead. The cognitive dissonance feels suffocating - everyone privately acknowledges the broken system while publicly defending increasingly desperate tactics. AI tools threaten to accelerate this race to the bottom by making it even easier to flood inboxes with personalized-but-soulless outreach.Your outbound strategy needs a reset focused on human connection. Replace mass automation with careful curation. Send fewer messages with deeper personalization. Study your target accounts' actual needs before reaching out. The marketers who thrive will build systems around quality interactions, not maximum velocity. This shift feels counterintuitive when every internal metric pushes for more volume, but the alternative leads off a cliff.Key takeaway: Break the cycle of mass outbound marketing by prioritizing quality over quantity. Build genuine connections through carefully researched, personalized outreach that demonstrates real value to your recipients. The future belongs to marketers who choose meaningful engagement over maximum velocity.The Brutal Math Behind Why Your Sales Outreach Dies UnreadB2B buyers now receive 500% more cold outreach than three years ago. The math becomes brutal: every sales message you craft competes with hundreds of others in an attention economy that's hitting its breaking point. Your thoughtfully personalized email drowns in the same inbox flood as automated spam blasts and LinkedIn form messages.Think of outbound sales channels like a public park destroyed by overuse. Each individual visitor might leave only a small trace, but multiply that impact by thousands. That's what's happening to email, phone, and social outreach. Even when you craft the perfect message, your prospects have already built defensive walls:* Automated email filters that quarantine anything resembling sales language* Phone settings that send unknown numbers straight to voicemail* Browser extensions that block LinkedIn connection requests* Calendar apps that require "approved sender" statusA recent conversation with a frustrated sales leader crystallized this reality. He argued that CEOs who ignore cold outreach risk missing game-changing opportunities. But flip that logic: as a CEO of a small company, Mac sees hundreds of pitches monthly. Each one demands attention, evaluation, and response time. For leaders at larger organizations, that number multiplies exponentially. The brutal reality is that most prospects physically lack the hours needed to evaluate your message, no matter how brilliant.The psychology of modern buyers reflects this overwhelm. When you receive 50+ sales messages daily, pattern recognition kicks in. Your brain builds shortcuts, filing anything that looks like outbound into the "deal with later" folder (which really means never). Sales teams chase prospects through an ever-shrinking window of attention, while buyers fortify their defenses against the growing assault on their time.Key takeaway: The outbound sales crisis stems from pure mathematics: too many messages chase too...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Ana Mourão, CRM, Customer Data and CDP Advisor.About AnaAna started her career in the financial services sector before moving to field marketing and ecomm partnershipsShe then spent 5 years as a Marketing leader at 3MShe created the Experimental Marketer framework to help marketers take ownership of martech Today Ana is CRM, Customer Data and CDP Advisor working with Fortune 500 customers advising on data architecture, digital engagement and customer journeysMartech Leaders Must Become Systems ArchitectsIn theory, we all understand that martech has the potential to shape customer experiences, transform internal processes, and drive business growth. But mastering individual tools offers limited value. Ana's experimental marketer framework proposes an interesting ideat: martech professionals must evolve into systems architects who orchestrate intricate technological ecosystems while maintaining laser focus on business outcomes.The framework, born from Ana's battlefield experience, advocates for marketers to embrace technology as a force multiplier. You already understand how martech drives conversions and engagement. Now imagine wielding that same power to revolutionize marketing operations, break down departmental barriers, and create seamless workflows that amplify team performance. This systems-level thinking separates strategic leaders from tactical operators.Marketing technologists possess unique insights into customer engagement processes, campaign execution, and performance optimization. The framework pushes you to leverage this knowledge beyond traditional boundaries. Step into cross-functional conversations with authority. Guide IT and operations teams toward solutions that serve marketing's mission while improving organizational efficiency. Your perspective proves invaluable in bridging the gap between technical capabilities and business objectives.Consider the ripple effects of your technology decisions. Each tool implementation, integration choice, and process automation creates waves that impact multiple teams and workflows. By viewing martech as an interconnected system rather than isolated solutions, you'll spot optimization opportunities invisible to those stuck in departmental silos. This elevated perspective transforms you from a tool specialist into a strategic architect of marketing operations.Some practical applications Ana recommends:Map your martech ecosystem to identify connection points and dependenciesDocument cross-functional workflows to pinpoint friction and improvement opportunities Facilitate regular discussions between marketing, IT, and ops teamsEvaluate new tools based on their system-wide impact, not just feature listsBuild processes that scale across teams and technologiesKey takeaway: The future demands marketing technologists who think in systems, not silos. Build your strategic value by understanding how technologies interconnect, impact multiple stakeholders, and drive both customer engagement and operational excellence. Your ability to architect comprehensive solutions while maintaining big-picture perspective will determine your success in this increasingly complex landscape.Lessons from Stanley Black & Decker's Data TemplateMarketing technology demands ruthless precision in system design. When tools operate in isolation, data fragments and teams falter. Ana examines how Stanley Black & Decker, the world’s largest industrial tool company, architected a unified martech ecosystem that transformed scattered tools into an integrated engine of market intelligence.Strategic Foundation & Business ContextMost B2B companies operate with dangerous blind spots between their distribution channels and end users. Ana shares how Stanley Black & Decker dismantled these barriers by architecting an integrated martech system across emerging markets. Their goal transcended basic data collection; they sought to reshape product development and go-to-market strategies through direct end-user intelligence.The system's strategic architecture spanned Latin America, Asia, Middle East, and Africa, deliberately excluding mature markets to focus on high-growth regions. This geographic scope demanded sophisticated balance between centralized control and local market agility. Rather than imposing rigid global templates, the architecture provided regional teams with dynamic frameworks for market-specific adaptation while maintaining brand integrity.Local empowerment emerged through granular control mechanisms. Teams gained the ability to modify email templates, adjust campaign elements, and launch market-specific promotions without technical dependencies. This operational autonomy accelerated time-to-market while reducing vendor reliance. A promotion in the Philippines could launch within hours instead of weeks, using pre-approved templates that maintained brand standards while accommodating local market conditions.The Tech Stack Evolution and Adding a CDPMarketing automation tools give your stack lightning-fast reflexes. They'll send emails, trigger workflows, and chase leads across channels with robotic precision. But Ana's work with Stanley Black & Decker exposed an uncomfortable truth: pure automation creates mindless action without strategic intelligence. You need a brain, not just a nervous system.The team's marketing automation platform fired off messages like clockwork. Yet it remained blind to the deeper patterns hiding in plain sight. User behaviors painted intricate stories: Anna gravitating toward e-commerce content while ignoring product launches, segments showing distinct engagement rhythms across markets. These crucial signals vanished into the void between automation triggers.The Customer Data Platform (CDP) entered as the cognitive center, not another mechanical add-on. This neural hub absorbed data streams from every market, brand, and channel. It learned to recognize behavior patterns, predict engagement paths, and surface hidden user affinities. The stack evolved from a collection of reflexes into an intelligent system capable of adapting to market-specific needs while maintaining coherent user understanding.Data Governance Through a Data TemplateData governance rarely sparks joy. Yet Ana's work at Stanley Black & Decker proved that operational elegance hides in unexpected places. A data template, speaking the CDP's native language, transformed scattered global operations into a synchronized intelligence network without strangling regional teams in process.The system worked through elegant behavioral design, not brute-force mandates. Forms matching the template's structure flowed seamlessly into unified customer profiles within 36 hours. Non-compliant data languished in digital limbo, requiring manual resurrection through tedious cross-departmental coordination. This natural selection pressure rapidly evolved team behavior from template resistance to passionate advocacy.Market dynamics morphed at quantum speed. Regional teams caught form errors before deployment. Landing pages multiplied perfectly across continents. Data streamed automatically into unified profiles while teams slept. New requirements integrated organically without breaking existing flows. Most critically, cross-market performance comparison transformed from weeks of reconciliation hell into instant insight generation.The template's adaptive properties challenged conventional governance wisdom. It maintained rigid standards while enabling local flexibility....

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Jeffrey Lee, Lifecycle Marketing Technical Lead at Calm. About JeffJeff started his career as an IT specialist at IBM He then joined Merchant Circle as a FE Web dev and eventually ended up managing a team of web developers He later joined Flipboard – a popular social magazine app – where he spent 5 years embedded into email development and marketing operations. He built and grew their email capability to sending over 400M emails per monthToday Jeff is Lifecycle Marketing Tech Lead at Calm where he architected their adoption of push notifications as a messaging channel; they now send over 300M push notifications and 2B emails per yearBuilding Engineering-Marketing Partnerships With a Technical and Emotional BlueprintProduct collaboration is the cornerstone of impactful marketing initiatives, yet many organizations struggle with this crucial partnership. Jeff's unconventional journey from engineering to marketing reveals a powerful framework for building authentic cross-team relationships that deliver both immediate results and long-term value.The Technical FoundationMost marketing teams fall into the trap of overwhelming engineering with urgent requests, only to face a wall of indifference. Jeff's engineering background helped him recognize that technical credibility forms the bedrock of successful collaboration. Rather than making desperate pleas for resources, he leveraged his technical expertise to create working prototypes that demonstrated clear business impact.His subscription management project exemplifies this approach. By bootstrapping a solution achieving 90% accuracy in promotional targeting, he transformed abstract marketing concepts into concrete engineering challenges. The remaining optimization represented pure customer experience enhancement and operational efficiency – metrics that resonated deeply with the engineering mindset.Building Emotional CapitalThe impact extends beyond technical competency into the realm of emotional intelligence and operational empathy. Engineers particularly value colleagues who demonstrate respect for their workflows and time constraints. Jeff's approach of presenting production-ready queries and implementation frameworks eliminated the typical friction of translating marketing requirements into technical specifications.This combination of technical fluency and operational understanding creates a powerful multiplier effect. When marketing teams blend technical capability with genuine empathy for engineering processes, they evolve from being perceived as an external burden to becoming a valued strategic partner. Each successful collaboration reinforces credibility and builds momentum for future innovations.Creating Sustainable PartnershipsThe formula for lasting engineering-marketing collaboration emerges from this dual focus on technical excellence and emotional intelligence:1. Start with working prototypes that prove business value before requesting engineering resources2. Present technically sound solutions in engineering-ready formats that respect existing workflows3. Build credibility through consistent delivery of measurable impact4. Demonstrate genuine understanding and respect for engineering priorities5. Leverage initial wins to create natural advocacy for future marketing technology initiativesThe result is a partnership model that transcends traditional departmental divisions, creating sustainable value for both teams. By approaching collaboration through both technical and emotional lenses, marketing teams can transform skepticism into enthusiasm for projects that deliver meaningful impact across the organization.This framework provides a blueprint for marketing teams looking to build authentic engineering partnerships that drive innovation and results. The key lies in demonstrating both technical competence and operational empathy – proving value through tangible outcomes while building emotional capital through genuine understanding and respect for engineering workflows.Key takeaway: Win engineering trust by showing, not telling. Build working prototypes that demonstrate clear value, then present solutions in engineers' technical language while respecting their workflows. This combination of proven results and operational empathy transforms marketing from a burden into a valued partner, creating momentum for future collaboration.Why it Took 3 Years to Convince the Product Team at Calm to Implement Push NotificationsWhether it’s product, martech or channels, sometimes decisions masquerade as data-driven choices but are actually running on raw emotion and bias. At Calm, adding push notifications sparked a three-year battle that exposed how deeply personal experiences shape enterprise product strategy. Through their struggle to balance user psychology with organizational resistance, we uncover essential principles for building sustainable engagement in mobile products.The Psychology Behind Product ResistanceProduct teams operate on gut reactions and personal biases more often than anyone wants to admit. At Calm, Jeff discovered this reality when a straightforward push notification feature turned into a three-year battle, exposing how deeply personal experiences shape product decisions at the highest levels.The resistance stemmed from visceral reactions to notification overload. Product leaders, scarred by their own encounters with aggressive casino apps and notification spam, projected these experiences onto Calm's notification strategy. Their instinct to protect the product from becoming "one of those apps" created a powerful organizational inertia, even in the face of compelling engagement data.The turning point arrived through an unexpected avenue: leadership turnover. A new Chief Product Officer, armed with positive experiences from previous roles, transformed the three-year roadmap struggle into a six-week sprint. This shift illuminates the stark reality of enterprise decision-making; technical complexity often plays second fiddle to personal conviction and past experiences.Jeff's evolution from email skeptic to engagement advocate mirrors this journey. His own transformation from viewing email as "the scammiest thing" to recognizing its profound impact on user engagement adds a layer of irony to his push notification crusade. Small-scale pilots proved ineffective at winning support because they failed to demonstrate the compound effects that emerge over time. Like SEO, the true power of these engagement channels only becomes apparent through sustained, systematic implementation.Industry-Standard Functionalities is More Important Than Competitive DynamicsCompetitive pressure normally drives product decisions, except when you're number one in the market. Jeff experienced this paradox at Calm, where their market leadership position actually worked against the adoption of push notifications. The common rationale? "We're number one. We don't need to do what others are doing to catch up."This mentality exposes a fascinating blind spot in product strategy. While lagging competitors enthusiastically embrace proven engagement channels, market leaders sometimes cocoon themselves in a false sense of security. Their position at the top becomes a psychological barrier to adopting industry-standard features, creating vulnerability to more nimble competitors.The definitive proof of push notifications' value emerged through an accidental experiment. When discussing hypothetical scenarios about turning off push n...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Sandy Mangat, Head of Marketing at Pocus. Summary: AI and outbound prospecting has flooded our inboxes with poorly personalized, irrelevant, and frankly lame template attempts at human connection. But some teams are seeing the light… the purple light. Sandy takes us inside the dimly lit fortune telling parlor of Pocus where we gaze into the swirling galaxies of the crystal ball of modern sales. We travel through visions of product-led sales, network referrals, signal correlation and AI agents all swirling together to fill pipelines. About SandySandy is based in beautiful Vancouver BC, she got her start at GE Digital in Product MarketingShe later moved on to ThoughtWire, a tech company specializing in smart buildingShe then joined Charli AI, a multidimensional AI company specializing in the finance sectorToday Sandy is Head of Marketing at Pocus, an AI-native prospecting platform trusted by high growth companies like Asana, Monday, Canva, and MiroOutbound Needs a Cold Hard ResetThe blunt reality about outbound sales is that automation obsession and meeting quotas have created a wasteland of deleted emails and blocked LinkedIn profiles. Sales teams continue spraying prospects with templated messages, while response rates plummet to new lows. Yet leadership keeps pushing for higher volumes, creating a self-destructive cycle that poisons potential customer relationships before they begin.This mess stems from sales organizations fundamentally misunderstanding what drives genuine business relationships. Sales leaders chase efficiency through automation, treating prospects like data points rather than future partners. The result? Inboxes overflow with desperate attempts at "personalization" that read like they were written by a caffeinated robot trying to sound human. Meanwhile, genuinely interested prospects have built fortress-like defenses against the daily barrage of cookie-cutter outreach.Consider how actual business relationships form: through authentic interactions, shared understanding, and carefully built trust. Successful outbound motions mirror this natural process, whether through thoughtful event networking, well-researched phone conversations, or precisely targeted digital outreach. Even companies swimming in inbound leads eventually require strategic outbound capabilities, especially when expanding into new markets or launching products that demand fresh customer conversations.The path forward demands embracing what experienced sales professionals already know: shortcuts and automation cannot replace genuine human connection. Sales organizations must rebuild their outbound approach from the ground up, focusing on quality interactions over vanity metrics. This means investing serious time in prospect research, crafting genuinely personalized messages, and showing patience as relationships develop organically.Key takeaway: Sales teams have to abandon the lame industrial approach to outbound prospecting and return to building relationships and human-centered selling. Ditch your batch and blast automation addiction, focus on qual over quant, and giving sales professionals the time and tools to build authentic relationships rather than chasing arbitrary activity and volume metrics.Building Sales Teams for Product Led Growth CompaniesProduct-led growth companies harbor a poorly kept secret: they all run sales teams. The idealistic vision of products that "sell themselves" crashes into market realities faster than venture capitalists can say "negative churn." Companies like Miro, Asana, and Canva discovered that relying solely on product-driven acquisition limits their growth potential, especially when expanding into new markets or use cases.The evolution of PLG sales teams reflects a sophisticated marriage between product usage data and human-driven outreach. These teams capitalize on product signals that indicate expansion potential, creating what Sandy calls "warm outbound" opportunities. When users demonstrate specific engagement patterns or hit usage thresholds, sales professionals step in to guide them toward broader adoption or premium offerings. This approach transforms traditional cold outreach into data-informed conversations with already-engaged users.Yet even these PLG darlings recognize the strategic value of traditional outbound sales. They approach their go-to-market strategy like a diversified investment portfolio, using cold outreach to hedge against the limitations of product-led acquisition. This hybrid model proves particularly valuable when testing new markets, launching products, or exploring different use cases. The rapid feedback loop from direct sales conversations provides invaluable insights that pure product analytics might miss.The WordPress.com experience illustrates this evolution perfectly. Despite massive organic traffic and brand recognition, they eventually built a sales team to capture enterprise opportunities and service-based revenue. This mirrors the broader industry pattern where even the most product-centric companies discover that sustainable growth requires a balanced approach combining automated product experiences with strategic human intervention.Key takeaway: Successful PLG companies build sales teams that leverage both product usage signals and traditional outbound tactics. Rather than choosing between product-led or sales-led growth, organizations should create a balanced strategy that uses product data to inform outreach while maintaining direct sales capabilities for market expansion and enterprise opportunities.How Product Led Sales Teams Time Their Customer OutreachThese days every SaaS company wants the magic of product-led growth: minimal sales headcount, viral expansion, and revenue that scales without an army of account executives. Yet behind the glossy investor decks and growth charts lurks an uncomfortable reality about human intervention in the sales process. Even the most automated, product-led companies scramble to hire sales teams the moment enterprise deals enter the picture.The data tells a ruthlessly practical story: throwing sales resources at every free trial wastes everyone's time while ignoring high-value accounts costs serious money. Smart companies obsess over usage patterns, tracking signals that indicate when a prospect needs human guidance versus automated nurturing. They build sophisticated scoring models to spot accounts teetering between self-service success and quiet abandonment, timing their outreach to tip the scales toward expansion.Sandy points out how divergent growth patterns demand radically different playbooks. Some products drive natural expansion through viral team adoption but struggle with initial activation. Others convert early users easily yet hit a wall when trying to expand across departments. These distinct patterns create clear intervention points where human touch generates outsized returns, whether that means helping a complex enterprise implementation succeed or guiding teams toward advanced features that unlock real value.The reality of product-led sales revolves around mapping your market's actual behavior, not following someone else's playbook. Enterprise deals often demand early sales involvement due to security requirements and complex buying processes. Other segments thrive on automated expansion until they hit specific technical or organizational barriers. Companies who understand these patterns build flexible systems that deploy sales resources at precise moments of maximum leverage rather than burning cycles on low-value outreach.Key takeaway: Map your actual user b...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Chris Golec, Founder & CEO at Channel99. Summary: The Godfather of ABM takes us through his humble beginnings in Detroit's industrial trenches to category creation and entrepreneurial expeditions. His journey spans building magnetic company cultures, cracking the code on remote work, sharing candid hiring wisdom, and transforming marketing failures into fuel for growth. Now building Channel99, he's rewriting attribution with a touch of AI engineering, predicting marketing ROI, using a white box approach. About ChrisChris started his career in the manufacturing world, working at DuPont and then GE where he moved from Engineering, Sales and Marketing rolesThe first startup he co-founded was a supply chain enterprise software where he also had the role of VP of Marketing, He grew the company to 75 people and raised $10M in VC. After only 6 years he sold to i2 Technologies for $380M A few years after his exit, Chris started his next company, Demandbase, the well known ABM platform. Along a 13 year journey as CEO he would create and lead the category of ABM software, hiring more than 1,000 people and crossing the elusive 200M in revenueToday Chris is on his 3rd company, Channel99, an AI powered attribution platform for B2B marketersFrom Industrial Paint Lines to Silicon ValleyChemical engineering graduates in Detroit followed a well-worn path: automotive paint lines, waste treatment facilities, and methodical career progression through established industry giants. The conventional trajectory promised stability but offered minimal room for pioneering new ground. This reality sparked Chris's pivotal decision to pursue innovation beyond Motor City's industrial confines.DuPont's Delaware operations presented an intriguing opportunity to spearhead European manufacturing technology adoption in the US market. The role demanded technical expertise while cultivating strategic thinking, setting the stage for an unorthodox career evolution. Engineering polymer sales, though seemingly mundane, opened doors to Boston's dynamic business landscape, where GE recognized potential in this chemical engineer turned sales strategist.The 1990s tech boom transformed the West Coast into a crucible of innovation. As GE's industry marketing lead for high-tech materials, Chris orchestrated global deals with Apple and HP, bridging the gap between traditional manufacturing and Silicon Valley's emerging titans. The experience revealed a stark reality: technical expertise alone created opportunities, but market understanding determined success. In 1995, this insight drove Chris and fellow GE engineers to launch Supply Base, despite their complete unfamiliarity with software development.Supply Base embodied Silicon Valley's audacious spirit. A team of engineers, armed with industrial experience but zero software knowledge, secured funding through sheer determination. The venture grew into a profitable enterprise, culminating in an exit that coincided precisely with the market peak on March 13, 2000. Yet amid this success, frustration brewed. B2B marketing remained technologically underserved, a gap that became increasingly apparent as Supply Base scaled. This observation planted seeds for future innovations in marketing technology, proving that sometimes the most valuable insights emerge from professional pain points.Key takeaway: Career evolution thrives on identifying market gaps and embracing unconventional paths. Chris's journey demonstrates how technical expertise combined with market understanding creates opportunities for innovation, especially when traditional industry boundaries blur in the face of technological advancement.Why Top Talent Gravitates to Companies with Purpose-Led CultureCreating genuine company culture runs deeper than the usual corporate playbook suggests. Demandbase's remarkable journey illuminates how sustained, intentional investment in organizational DNA attracts and retains exceptional talent. Chris discovered through years of leadership that authenticity, transparency, and meaningful impact serve as the bedrock of thriving workplace environments, transcending typical office perks or superficial initiatives.Demandbase's cultural investment materialized into tangible recognition, propelling them to the tenth spot among 500,000 companies on Glassdoor by 2016. The achievement reflected genuine employee satisfaction measured through independent surveys rather than manufactured accolades. This momentum persisted as the company consistently earned "Best Places to Work" distinctions throughout the Bay Area, validating their approach to fostering genuine workplace connections.The company's distinctive approach integrated philanthropy seamlessly into their organizational fabric. A partnership with Stop Hunger Now transformed from an office-wide meal-packaging initiative into a stadium-scale operation at their annual customer conference. This resonated profoundly with their marketing-focused clientele, spawning similar programs across multiple organizations. Additional initiatives supporting women's education and the Challenge Athlete Foundation enabled employees to contribute meaningfully beyond their B2B software focus, creating ripple effects throughout the industry.Cultural development demands attention from inception, though its manifestation evolves with company growth. While Series A funding often marks the formal introduction of HR functions and recruitment strategies, companies under 20 employees thrive when leadership directly shapes and nurtures cultural foundations. The rise of remote work introduces new challenges, requiring deliberate effort to maintain community through strategic in-person gatherings and shared experiences that transcend virtual boundaries.Key takeaway: Purpose-driven culture requires deliberate cultivation from day one. Organizations that prioritize authentic connections, maintain radical transparency, and create opportunities for meaningful impact naturally attract and retain exceptional talent. This foundation enables sustainable growth while fostering genuine employee satisfaction and engagement.Why Remote Work Fails Junior Employees (And Soars for Veterans)Remote work demands a brutally honest examination beyond the standard flexibility narrative. The stark reality reveals a complex equation where career stage, personality type, and organizational DNA collide to determine distributed success. During a pre-pandemic executive assessment at Demandbase, the remote work preference split tracked perfectly along introvert-extrovert lines, foreshadowing the fundamental role of personality in distributed work effectiveness.Career stage emerges as the make-or-break factor in remote work dynamics. Fresh graduates and early-career professionals require an apprenticeship period that Zoom simply cannot replicate. The professional polish developed through observing seasoned colleagues handle meetings, presentations, and workplace politics creates an invisible foundation for later career success. Close CRM's remote-first model crystallizes this reality; they exclusively hire veteran professionals with 10+ years of experience, acknowledging that virtual environments demand battle-tested practitioners who learned their craft in the trenches of traditional offices.The SDR experience at Demandbase's New York office illustrates this principle in vivid detail. Post-pandemic, a group of SDRs met face-to-face for the first time, creating an impromptu laboratory for examining remote work's limitations. Physical proximity unlocked a treasure trove of professional development opportuniti...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Meg Gowell, Director of Growth Marketing at Typeform. Summary: Marketing leadership in 2025 is a wild time. After years of learning martech and technical concepts to become a full stack marketer, you finally land that dream director gig... only to watch your hard-earned tech skills collect dust while you drown in meetings. Megan helps us see the way forward. She takes us on a ride that covers marketing measurement, experimentation and building brand momentum, all while having tons of fun. We get into how data warehouses are not so quietly changing the martech universe while most teams are still stuffing everything they can in their CRM. Welcome to the wild world of modern marketing leadership – where you somehow need to be both a tech wizard and a strategy genius just to keep up. And we’re here to guide ya. About MegMeg started her career in wedding planning while she was in college, she also started a luxury branding business for high-end weddingsShe then worked at a marketing agency for 4 years where she focused on social media, paid media and budget managementShe switched over to a boutique agency where she got a breath of experience across all facets of marketing including web design, conversion rate optimization, project management and also got to lead a team of marketersShe then moved over to a real estate startup – which was one of her former clients – as VP of Marketing and automation where she helped grow the company from $9MM to $22MM in less than a yearShe then moved over to B2B SaaS at Appcues as Director of Growth marketing where she led funnel optimization, experimentation strategy and execution, event sponsorships, biz dev and moreToday Meg is Director of Growth Marketing at Typeform where she oversees paid, web/site, lifecycle, partner marketing and campaigns How Full Stack Marketers Drive Marketing ExcellenceFull stack marketing capabilities command premium compensation in today's market, mirroring the pattern seen with full stack engineers who rank among the highest-paid technical professionals. The comparison raises interesting questions about the relationship between full stack and T-shaped marketing skill sets, particularly regarding depth versus breadth of expertise.The distinction between full stack and T-shaped marketers centers on the distribution of knowledge and capabilities across different marketing disciplines. While T-shaped marketers typically possess deep expertise in one area complemented by broader surface-level knowledge, full stack marketers maintain substantial working knowledge across multiple marketing domains. This broader distribution of skills enables them to engage meaningfully with specialists and make informed decisions across the marketing spectrum.A critical advantage of the full stack marketing approach lies in its impact on team building and hiring decisions. When marketing leaders possess comprehensive knowledge across various disciplines, they can better evaluate potential hires and identify genuine experts in specialized roles. This knowledge framework helps prevent the common pitfall of making poor hiring decisions due to limited understanding of specific marketing functions or technologies.The full stack marketer's broad knowledge base serves as a foundation for effective collaboration and decision-making. Rather than requiring mastery in every area, the key is maintaining sufficient expertise to ask incisive questions, recognize genuine talent, and understand the interconnections between different marketing functions. This comprehensive perspective enables better strategic planning and more efficient resource allocation.Key takeaway: Full stack marketers need sufficient knowledge across marketing disciplines to recognize expertise, make informed hiring decisions, and drive strategic initiatives. Success in this role doesn't require mastery of every area but rather the ability to understand key concepts, ask relevant questions, and identify genuine expertise when building and managing teams.Balancing Technical Proficiency and Leadership in Marketing TeamsRemember getting that dream marketing leadership role? Corner office, eager team, the works. But then reality hits - you're spending more time in strategy meetings than actually doing the hands-on work you love.It's a weird spot to be in. The higher you climb, the further you get from the technical skills that got you there. Take Megan's story - she was crushing it at AppCues, deep in the technical weeds while leading cross-functional teams. Now at Typeform, she's managing 10 people and her calendar is packed with meetings while her technical skills collect dust.Here's the thing - you can't fake technical knowledge. Real understanding comes from getting your hands dirty - tweaking platforms, figuring out complex filters, and really getting how things work under the hood. The best marketing leaders are like chefs who still know their way around the kitchen, not just writing menus. Your team can smell it a mile away if you've lost touch with the technical side. The real magic happens when you can switch between big-picture thinking and nuts-and-bolts knowledge. It's like being bilingual in both strategy and technical speak.Some leaders live in the strategy clouds, others get lost in the details. The sweet spot? Knowing when to zoom in and when to step back. When you ask about campaign metrics or question technical decisions, your team knows if you're genuinely curious or just micromanaging. Feedback is a delicate art, you have to ask yourself if your input makes something better versus just different. Sometimes we suggest changes based on personal preference rather than what actually works. The key is knowing when to speak up and when to let your team run with it.Takeaways: Your technical skills got you the leadership role. Now they need to evolve, not evaporate. The future belongs to marketing leaders who keep one foot in the code and one in the boardroom – masters of both the how and the why.Trusting Your Gut vs Measuring All Of The ThingsThe marketing metrics obsession has gone too far. While CFOs salivate over spreadsheets demanding ROI calculations for every LinkedIn post and email blast, they're missing a crucial reality check: humans are gloriously unpredictable creatures who refuse to follow our carefully crafted attribution models. The digital advertising revolution sold us a compelling fantasy of perfect measurement, but reality stubbornly refuses to play along. After the "growth at all costs" party ended with a nasty hangover, companies sobered up and started demanding receipts for every marketing dollar spent. Logical? Sure. Realistic? Not even close. This myopic fixation on measurable channels creates a dangerous illusion of control. Paid search might give you beautiful conversion tracking, but try building a billion-dollar brand on Google Ads alone. Spoiler alert: it won't work. Real growth demands embracing the uncomfortable truth that some of your most powerful marketing moves will resist neat ROI calculations.Modern marketing success requires omnipresence, not just optimization. Your target audience bounces between platforms like a caffeinated pinball, interacting with your brand across countless touchpoints. Social media, influencer collaborations, and content marketing often defy precise attribution, yet they create the vital ambient awareness that drives long-term growth. The magic happens in the messy middle, where multiple channels work together in ways that no attribution model can fully capture.Getting leadership buy-in for this reality requi...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with the lads from We're not marketers. Summary: When did everyone on LinkedIn suddenly become a GTM expert? The misfits from ‘We're Not Marketers’ dive into this chaos, explaining why Go-to-Market strategy has become the most misused term in marketing. They share product marketing stories about rigid product launches, cross-functional chaos, and small test groups. They open up about their love and admiration for marketing operations folks, similar cross functional translators between tech and marketing and how martech can support message testing. We explore the debate of who should have final word on messaging, PMMs or the channel SMEs. Join us for the laughs, stick around for the love between PMMs and martech. About the 3 MisfitsAll 3 of these gentlemen work for themselves as fractional PMMsGab Bujold (Bu-jo) is based in Quebec city, Canada. He’s a messaging expert and also a marketing advisor for early-stage startups, he’s a former product marketer and 4-time solo marketer at various different brands and sports an incredible mustacheAlso joining us today is Zach Roberts is based in California, he worked in B2B SaaS sales for half a decade before pivoting to product marketing with a focus on enablement, he’s worked at big names like Dropbox, LinkedIn and Google. He’s a 2x recognized Product Marketing Influencer by PMALast but certainly not least, we’re also joined by Eric Holland who’s based in Pennsylvania, he’s a product-led content pro also runs a retail apparel startup and is a recovering in-house product marketer. He’s the mastermind behind the creative AI skullies artwork of their podcastWhy Go to Market Strategy Has Become a BuzzwordThe concept of go-to-market (GTM) strategy has entered peak buzzword territory in recent years. What was once a product marketing-specific term focused on launching new products or features has been hijacked by nearly every department under the sun. These days, everyone from sales and marketing ops to customer success is suddenly a "GTM expert" on LinkedIn. The term has become so diluted that it's starting to lose its meaning entirely.The transformation of GTM into a catch-all phrase stems largely from corporate politics and self-preservation. Teams across organizations are scrambling to attach themselves to GTM initiatives, fearing that being left out might signal their irrelevance. As Zach points out, there's an underlying anxiety that not being involved in GTM somehow makes a team dispensable, leading to a kind of organizational FOMO that has stretched the term beyond recognition.The reality is that successful GTM execution has always required coordinated effort across multiple teams. Product marketing traditionally orchestrates these initiatives, but they can't execute alone. It takes sales for implementation, product teams for development, and marketing for awareness. The problem isn't collaboration; it's the current trend of every team claiming to be the primary GTM driver, creating confusion about who actually owns the strategy.Eric makes a crucial distinction between "going to market" and "go-to-market strategy" that cuts through some of the noise. While the strategy might come from product marketing or revenue leadership, the execution involves multiple teams working together. The challenge is maintaining clear ownership of the strategy while preventing it from becoming another meaningless corporate buzzword that everyone claims expertise in.Key takeaway: Organizations need to stop the free-for-all claiming of GTM expertise and return to clearly defined roles within the GTM process. Success depends on having centralized strategic ownership while enabling individual teams to excel in their specific GTM responsibilities, not turning every department into self-proclaimed GTM experts.Who is Responsible for Operationalizing GTMPicture a chill Broadway production: everyone from lighting to sound plays a crucial role, but someone needs to direct the show. Product Marketing's role in GTM execution presents a fascinating operational challenge. While multiple teams claim ownership over GTM initiatives, the real question isn't about territorial control but about orchestrating complex product launches effectively.The operational reality of GTM involves intricate coordination across specialized teams. Marketing and sales ops teams manage the technical infrastructure, configuring everything from CRM workflows to marketing automation. Lifecycle marketing teams often gatekeep new feature and product notification announcements and balance that with existing messages. Product marketing develops the strategy and messaging, while sales teams handle direct customer engagement. Each group brings essential expertise to the table, making territorial claims over "GTM Ops" not just unnecessary but counterproductive.Gab's makes a really good point that Product Marketing Managers excel at running small-scale experiments, gathering feedback, and iteratively refining go-to-market approaches. This methodology allows teams to validate strategies before full-scale deployment, reducing risk and improving outcomes. It's not about owning GTM ops; it's about facilitating successful product launches through methodical testing and collaboration.You should view GTM operations as a collaborative framework rather than a power structure. PMMs serve as strategic conductors, coordinating efforts across teams while respecting each group's expertise. When campaigns underperform, the root cause typically traces back to poor coordination or unclear direction, not technical execution. Success requires letting each team excel in their domain while maintaining a unified strategic vision.Key takeaway: Focus on establishing clear operational frameworks where Product Marketing Managers guide strategy and testing, while specialized ops teams manage technical implementation. Success comes from collaboration and respect for expertise, not from claiming ownership over the entire GTM process.Prioritizing Product Marketing Requests vs Martech RoadmapsThere’s often a natural tension between PMMs who think every feature deserves a big email to everyone in the database and the martech or marketing ops team who has an existing roadmap and existing comms in place. New GTM initiatives don’t get to market on certain channels without the SME team converting words into code and automation. This creates a complex decision making process that often requires somewhat lame but important evaluation of business impact and strategic alignment.Strategic prioritization requires product marketers to approach each situation with an analytical mindset focused on identifying the most pressing business needs. As Eric explains, the process resembles assessing multiple issues requiring attention but having limited resources to address them all simultaneously. The key becomes determining which initiative will deliver the most significant impact toward established organizational goals and objectives.The reality of product marketing involves making difficult trade-offs between seemingly equally important initiatives. While new product launches naturally generate excitement and momentum, they must be weighed against the potential impact of operational improvements that are already on the martech roadmap like enhanced product analytics or refined lead scoring mechanisms. These behind the scenes projects often create foundational improvements that enable better execution of future go to market activities.At the end of the day, most product launches have flexible timing - what's critical is identifying the few relea...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Sundar Swaminathan, author of the experiMENTAL newsletter and part time Marketing and Data science advisor?Summary: After leading Uber's Marketing Data Science teams, Sundar shares insights that work for both tech giants and startups. Beyond uncovering that Meta ads generated zero incremental value (saving $30 million annually), they mastered measuring brand impact through geo testing and predicting LTV through first-week behaviors. Small companies can adapt these methods through strategic A/B testing and simplified attribution models, even with limited sample sizes. Building data science teams that embrace business impact over technical complexity, and maintaining curiosity, like when direct driver engagement revealed that recommending Saturday afternoon starts over Friday peak hours improved retention. About SundarSundar started his career as a software developer at Bloomberg before managing $19 Trillion at the US Treasury as a Debt ManagerHe pivoted to growth marketing and data science consulting where he worked with DirectTV and an ed-tech AI startupHe then made the mega move to Uber where he spent 5 years building Brand, Performance, and Lifecycle Marketing Data Science teamsHe moved over to a travel tech startup and helped them go from $0 to $100K MRRToday, Sundar is a marketing and data science advisor, he helps B2C founders and marketers He’s also working on an upcoming podcast and has a newsletter where he shares frameworks, how-to guides to help B2C marketersMarketing Incrementality Testing Reveals Meta Ads Ineffective at UberPerformance marketing often reveals surprising truths about channel effectiveness, as demonstrated by a fascinating case study from Uber's marketing operations. When confronted with unstable customer acquisition costs (CAC) that fluctuated 10-20% week over week despite consistent ad spend on Meta platforms, Uber's performance marketing team, led by Sundar, decided to investigate the underlying causes.The investigation began when the team noticed significant volatility in signup rates despite maintaining steady advertising investments. This inconsistency prompted a deeper analysis of Meta's effectiveness as a primary performance marketing channel. The timing of this analysis was particularly relevant, as Uber had already achieved substantial market penetration eight years after its launch, especially in major urban markets where awareness wasn't the primary barrier to adoption.Through rigorous data analysis, the team implemented a three-month incrementality test to measure Meta's true impact on user acquisition. The test utilized a classic A/B testing methodology, comparing a control group receiving no paid ads against a treatment group exposed to Meta advertising. The results were striking: Meta advertising showed virtually no incremental value in driving new user acquisition, a finding that was validated by Meta's own data science team.The outcome of this experiment led to a significant strategic shift, resulting in annual savings of approximately $30 million in the U.S. market alone. While this figure might seem modest for a company of Uber's scale, its implications were far-reaching when considered across global markets. The success of this experiment also highlighted the importance of data-driven decision-making and the willingness to challenge assumptions about established marketing channels.Key takeaway: Established marketing channels should never be exempt from rigorous effectiveness testing. Regular incrementality testing can reveal unexpected insights about channel performance and lead to substantial cost savings. Marketing teams should prioritize data-driven decision-making over assumptions about channel effectiveness, even for seemingly essential platforms.How to Run Marketing Experiments With Limited DataMost companies don’t have the volume of signups or users that an Uber does. Marketing experiments require a mindset shift when working with small data samples. While A/B testing remains the gold standard for measuring marketing effectiveness, Sunday thinks that companies with limited data can still validate their marketing efforts through strategic pre-post testing approaches.Pre-post testing, when properly implemented, serves as a valuable tool for measuring marketing impact. The key lies in isolation: controlling variables and measuring the impact of a single change. For instance, a marketplace company successfully conducted a pre-post test on branded search keywords in France by isolating specific terms in a defined region. This focused approach provided reliable insights despite not having the massive data volumes typically associated with incrementality testing.That being said, Sundar adds that early-stage companies should prioritize high-impact experiments capable of delivering substantial results vs testing tiny changes that will barely have detectable effects. With small sample sizes, tests should target minimum detectable effects (MDE) of 30-40%. These larger effect sizes become measurable even with limited data, making them ideal for fundamental changes such as exploring new ideal customer profiles (ICPs) or revamping core value propositions, rather than pursuing minor optimizations.An example that Sundar recalls while working at a travel tech startup demonstrated the value of running A/B tests even with limited data. Despite having only 100-200 weekly signups, they detected a 40% conversion drop after modifying their onboarding flow. While the test might have been considered "poorly powered" by strict statistical standards, it successfully prevented a significant negative impact on the business. This illustrates how even small-scale testing can provide crucial insights; it's better to have 60% confidence in a positive change than to miss a catastrophic drop with 95% confidence.The confidence level in marketing experiments operates on a spectrum, with A/B tests providing the highest confidence and pre-post tests offering valuable but less definitive insights. Success depends on maintaining experimental discipline, carefully controlling variables, and understanding the tradeoffs between confidence levels and the humbling reality of practical constraints. Marketing teams must balance their confidence requirements against their risk tolerance when designing and interpreting tests.Key takeaway: Companies with limited data should focus on measuring high-impact marketing changes through carefully controlled pre-post tests. Success comes from isolating variables, targeting substantial effect sizes, and maintaining experimental discipline. This approach enables meaningful measurement while acknowledging the practical constraints of smaller data sets.The Difference Between AB Testing and Incrementality TestingMarketing experimentation terminology often creates unnecessary complexity in what should be straightforward concepts. The fundamental structure of both A/B testing and incrementality testing follows the same principle: comparing outcomes between groups that receive different treatments.Statistical analysis remains consistent across both testing approaches. Whether using Bayesian or frequentist methods, the underlying comparison examines differences between groups, regardless of what those groups receive. The statistical calculations remain indifferent to whether one group receives no treatment (as in incrementality tests) or a variation of the treatment (as in traditional A/B tests).Incrementality testing extends beyond simple presence versus absence comparisons. For example, marketers can test spending increm...

What’s up everyone, today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Sarah Krasnik Bedell, Director, Growth Marketing at Prefect. Summary: What happens when a data engineer with an obsession for truth-testing crashes into marketing's sacred cows? Sarah's journey from code to campaigns unfolds like a detective story, where she picks apart marketing myths and rebuilds them with an engineer's precision. Her fresh take transforms marketing tools from black boxes into purposeful instruments, while her approach to AI echoes "Limitless" - it's not about letting machines take the wheel, but supercharging human creativity. Whether you're wrestling with developer outreach or trying to get sales and marketing teams to actually talk to each other, Sarah's technical-meets-tactical perspective offers a compelling roadmap for modern marketing that actually works.About SarahSarah studied math and cognitive science before completing a masters in data scienceShe started her career at Amsted working on data aggregation and machine learning models and eventually moved to a customer-centric role where she helped engineer data architecture for supply chain optimizationsShe had short stints in financial forecasting and company-wide data architectureShe then joined Perpay as a data engineer focused on product analytics as well as reverse-ETL for their marketing team. She was eventually promoted to Lead data eng, managing the full team of data engineers She’s an Analytics and GTM Advisor for devtoolsToday she’s Director of Growth Marketing at Prefect, a workflow orchestration tool for data and ML engineersUnconventional Paths From Data Engineering to Marketing LeadershipThe traditional career trajectory rarely follows a straight line, particularly in Sarah's fascinating pivot from data engineering to marketing. While leading the data engineering team at Perpay, she found herself knee-deep in an Iterable implementation project that would unknowingly alter her professional DNA. This wasn't just another technical integration; it was a complex orchestration of customer data streams, product catalogs, and audience segmentation capabilities that secretly doubled as an apprenticeship in modern marketing mechanics.Marketing technology projects have a peculiar way of revealing their true nature over time. What begins as lines of code and data pipelines often transforms into something far more intriguing: a window into the soul of marketing operations. Sarah discovered that while her peers remained captivated by the elegance of their code, she found herself increasingly magnetized by the downstream impact of these technical solutions. This subtle shift in perspective proved transformative, compelling her to venture beyond the comfortable confines of engineering meetings and into the dynamic world of marketing strategy sessions.The pandemic's isolation birthed unexpected opportunities, as Sarah's technical writing began attracting attention in the data community. What started as casual documentation of her engineering adventures morphed into paid writing engagements, creating a surprising bridge between technical expertise and marketing communications. This organic evolution suggested something more profound lurking beneath the surface, a hidden pathway connecting the precision of data engineering with the artistry of marketing strategy.The final pieces of her transition fell into place through a combination of hands-on consulting work, mentorship from industry veterans, and immersion in marketing literature. Her participation in the Reforge community added structured learning to her toolkit, while her unique perspective as a former technical buyer provided invaluable insights into marketing dynamics. This multifaceted approach to learning, mixing practical experience with theoretical knowledge, transformed what might have seemed like an improbable leap into a natural progression.Key takeaway: Career transitions in technology rarely require formal education; they thrive on practical experience and curiosity. The most valuable skills often develop through side projects, technical writing, and a willingness to understand the business impact of your work. For those considering a similar path, start by documenting your technical experiences, engaging with cross-functional teams, and focusing on how your current role impacts business outcomes rather than just technical implementations.First Principles Marketing Against Best PracticesMarketing orthodoxy often goes unchallenged, with practitioners blindly following conventional wisdom without questioning its validity. Sarah brings a refreshing perspective to this dilemma, approaching marketing strategies with an engineer's skepticism and a commitment to first principles thinking. This natural inclination to question established norms stems from her background in data engineering, where decisions require rigorous validation rather than mere acceptance of industry standards.The notion that Tuesday morning at 8 AM represents the optimal time for email sends exemplifies the kind of unexamined marketing wisdom that pervades the industry. Rather than accepting such practices at face value, Sarah advocates for a two-pronged approach: first envisioning the ideal outcome, then assessing what's practically achievable within existing constraints. This methodology creates space for innovation while maintaining pragmatic boundaries, allowing marketers to challenge assumptions without losing sight of business objectives.The parallel between architectural decisions in software engineering and strategic choices in marketing reveals an interesting pattern. Just as engineers must carefully consider system architecture before writing code, marketers benefit from establishing solid strategic foundations before diving into tactical execution. This shift in focus from immediate implementation to thoughtful strategy design represents a more sophisticated approach to marketing operations, one that prioritizes intentional decision-making over reflexive adoption of industry practices.In the context of accelerating AI adoption, this first-principles approach becomes even more crucial. Rather than immediately jumping to content creation or campaign execution, successful marketing strategies begin with fundamental questions about audience selection, engagement methods, and value proposition. This methodical approach ensures that technological tools serve strategic objectives rather than dictating them, maintaining human judgment at the core of marketing decisions.Key takeaway: Transform your marketing approach by questioning established practices and applying first-principles thinking. Start by clearly defining your ideal outcome, then work backward to create practical strategies that challenge conventional wisdom. This method often reveals more effective approaches than blindly following industry "best practices." When evaluating any marketing tactic, ask yourself: "What problem are we really trying to solve, and is this truly the most effective solution?"Systems Thinking Applications For Marketing AnalyticsSystems thinking represents the essential bridge between marketing and data engineering, offering a framework for understanding how data flows through modern marketing operations. The ability to visualize and architect data pathways across platforms separates proficient marketing technologists from those merely executing tactical campaigns. This foundational skill proves invaluable when orchestrating the complex dance of customer data across marketing systems.Consider the journey of a single lead signal as it traverses through various marketing platforms. The ...

What’s up everyone, welcome to our first episode of 2025 – today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Austin Hay, Co-Founder and Co-CEO at Clarify and Martech Teacher at Reforge. Summary: Something extraordinary is brewing in the world of martech. In the near future, Austin thinks AI agents will turn into an omniscient digital butler, anticipating your needs with uncanny precision while vanishing into the background of your workday. But the real revolution unfolds in the seemingly mundane machinery of marketing operations, where innovative companies are transforming their spaghetti mess of data pipes and platforms into something approaching digital poetry. The fundamental building blocks of our systems aren't disappearing, they're gaining superpowers. Hear it from one of our industry's most thoughtful builders. About AustinAustin started his career at Accenture but he left the Fortune 500 world to join a startup called Branch where he became the 4th employeeAustin then created his own boutique mobile growth engineering consultancy. He grew the practice to 1.5M with big names like Walmart, Jet, Airbnb, Foursquare and more.His consulting practice was aqui-hired by mParticle – a leading CDP solution where he would eventually become VP of Growth He later joined Runway as VP of Business OperationsHe also started building The Marketing Technology Academy – an online learning center for martech which he would eventually sell to Reforge and become the Instructor for the new Martech courseHe was also Head of Martech at Ramp, a fintech startupLast year, Austin strapped on his jetpack and became a product founder at Clarify conquering SF and Hubspot and building the first flexible, intelligent CRM that people actually enjoy using. AI Agents and the Hidden Promise of Ambient ComputingLet's face it, manually feeding context to AI feels a bit like teaching a fish to ride a bicycle. Current AI systems, brilliant as they may be at crunching numbers and crafting responses, still stumble around our digital workspaces like a tourist without a map. Sure, they can write a decent blog post or solve complex equations, but they're essentially working with one hand tied behind their virtual back.Now, imagine your AI assistant as more of a digital detective, quietly observing and understanding everything happening on your screen. No more copying and pasting chunks of text or explaining what's in your Notion workspace for the hundredth time. Picture having a conversation with your computer while it maintains an almost supernatural awareness of your digital environment, from those buried Slack threads to that spreadsheet you've been avoiding. Recent demonstrations, like Kieran Flanagan's adventure with Gemini's screen reader, hint at this future, even if current versions move with all the grace of a sleepy sloth.The real magic kicks in when we start thinking about operating system-level integration. Platform-specific AI agents are like horses wearing blinders; they can only see what's directly in front of them. But desktop applications from companies like GPT and Anthropic are pushing toward something far more interesting: AI that can understand your entire digital world, not just a tiny slice of it. It's the difference between having a personal assistant who can only help you in the kitchen versus one who can manage your entire house.Here's where things get particularly juicy: this isn't some far-off sci-fi fantasy. We're looking at a five-year horizon where the clunky, permission-asking AI of today evolves into something far more sophisticated. The transformation won't happen overnight (sorry, instant gratification seekers), but when it does, we're talking about a 10x boost in productivity that makes current productivity hacks look like using a butter knife to cut down a forest.Key takeaway: While today's AI assistants feel like overeager interns requiring constant supervision, the next five years will usher in truly ambient AI that seamlessly integrates with our operating systems. The future isn't about teaching AI to understand us; it's about AI that already knows what we need, when we need it, across our entire digital landscape.The Limitations of AI Agent MarketplacesThe AI marketplace concept raises important questions about automation's role in our daily work. While downloading specialized AI agents for every task might sound appealing, reality suggests a different path forward. Current marketplace models mirror the Chrome extension ecosystem, where tools often remain peripheral rather than becoming essential to core workflows.Austin frames the central debate in venture capital circles clearly: will we depend on AI agents that require explicit commands, or will we embrace ambient intelligence that works proactively in the background? Looking at the CRM space, Austin points out a crucial consideration that many futurists overlook. You can't simply discard two decades of sales methodology and expect professionals to embrace a completely alien interface. Instead, sellers need familiar elements: contacts, companies, opportunities, and tasks, all presented in recognizable formats that align with established workflows.The intersection of traditional software and AI becomes particularly interesting when Austin discusses CDP platforms. Users expect certain fundamentals, like accessing persona views and tracking customer behavior. The innovation opportunity lies not in replacing these elements but in enhancing them through intelligent automation. Austin suggests that the key difference emerges in how these agents operate: will users actively assign tasks, or will agents run continuously in the background, performing expected functions without explicit direction?While some platforms champion what Austin calls the "jack of all trades" approach with Notion-style customizable workflows, he makes a compelling case for specialized, industry-specific solutions. This focused approach, where AI agents operate autonomously within well-defined parameters, might prove more valuable than a marketplace full of generic tools. Austin emphasizes that the more specialized you are in understanding user needs, the more effective your agentic experience can be, particularly when it runs seamlessly in the background without requiring constant configuration.The reality likely lies somewhere in between these two extremes. Certain straightforward tasks, like data enrichment for new records or basic categorization, seem well-suited for autonomous AI agents. However, more complex decisions involving customer lifecycle management, timing of promotional offers, or predictive modeling for next-best-action recommendations require deeper integration with historical data and sophisticated propensity models. The key to success may not be choosing between marketplace agents or integrated solutions, but rather understanding which approach best suits specific use cases and organizational needs.Key takeaway: Success in AI automation won't come from marketplace-driven point solutions but through deeply integrated, industry-specific AI that enhances existing workflows while maintaining familiar interfaces. Austin's insights suggest focusing on building AI that complements rather than replaces established business processes, creating tools that feel natural rather than revolutionary.The Core Primitives of Martech and the Path to Self-Designing APIsEver tried explaining Bitcoin to your grandparents? That's roughly how it feels watching companies try to skip straight to AI automation without understanding their data foundations. Austin breaks down the concept of primitives in martech, those fun...