#352 Lift the Shield — Adrian Dray & Kautham Haran

Bizhan Shokouhi didn't set out to be an oral surgeon, or even to specialise at all. He joins Payman as a specialist oral surgeon and implantologist working across private practice and Guy's Hospital, and teaching on the Bristol MSc in Implants, having spent his first year qualified convinced he'd end up a restorative dentist.He talks openly about the one thing he tells every trainee before they touch an implant, which has nothing to do with surgery and everything to do with communication, and about a denture case that took twenty-odd visits over eighteen months before he admitted defeat and referred it on. There's a genuinely reflective stretch on ambition too: Bizhan's own answer to whether he'd want his own practice is a flat no, and his reasoning, built around contentment rather than potential, runs against almost everything you'd expect from someone this good at his job.Along the way, there's proper technical detail on soft tissue management, bone grafting, and why the first five minutes of a surgery matter more than anything that happens with a suture. And by the end, Payman more or less names the episode for him: was it worth it? In This Episode00:00:50 – Introduction00:01:35 – A typical working week00:04:20 – Becoming excellent00:09:28 – Work-life balance00:14:36 – Getting into implantology00:21:00 – Communicating with patients00:30:39 – Digital planning and AI00:36:52 – Robots and the future00:54:52 – Blackbox thinking01:02:48 – Soft tissue lessons01:05:11 – Building an Instagram following01:12:04 – Mentors in implantology01:14:44 – Why no practice of his own01:19:59 – Best lecture: Martin Kelleher01:22:36 – Fantasy dinner party About Bizhan ShokouhiBizhan Shokouhi is a specialist oral surgeon and implantologist working in private practice and at Guy's Hospital, and a tutor on the Bristol MSc in Implants. He is known for his educational Instagram content on oral surgery and soft tissue management, and previously trained in restorative dentistry and maxillofacial surgery before specialising.

Anita Pradan pulled her car onto the hard shoulder of the motorway one day, cried, took her laptop out of the boot, and typed her resignation. She joins Payman as founder of Phoenix Dental Academy, having spent years running herself into the ground managing someone else's education business before deciding to build her own.She talks openly about the exam that took her five years longer than expected, the practice interview where a principal offered her £1,500 a month and shouted at her for turning it down, and the gap between what overseas dentists post on Instagram and what they're actually going through once they arrive in the UK. There's a properly moving thread here about her father too, a maxillofacial surgeon who treated Nepal's royal family, and what it took for Anita to build something that was hers rather than his.Along the way, Anita gets specific about which countries produce the best-prepared dentists, why crown preps are the one part of the ORE exam that actually matters, and the impression material disaster in her very first week that she still uses to teach students today. In This Episode00:01:05 – Introduction00:01:30 – What the ORE involves00:07:05 – Therapist-led routes into the GDC00:10:55 – Exploitation and bad contracts00:16:55 – Social media versus reality00:19:30 – Building Phoenix Dental Academy00:24:35 – Leaving a toxic workplace00:32:15 – Growing up in her father's shadow00:38:15 – Teaching hands-on courses00:45:00 – The gap between passing and practising00:52:25 – Ambition without a partner00:57:20 – A typical week00:59:00 – Which countries produce the best dentists01:10:45 – Blackbox thinking01:22:50 – Fantasy dinner party About Anita PradanAnita Pradan is a Nepalese, Indian-trained dentist and founder of Phoenix Dental Academy, which prepares overseas dentists for the Overseas Registration Examination. She also teaches at the College of Medicine and Dentistry in Birmingham, part of Ulster University, and works one day a week as clinical lead for overseas clinicians within a dental group.

Ben Barter has never drilled a tooth in his life, but he's spent more time in dental events than most dentists. He joins Payman as co-founder of Dental Assembly, the latest venture in a career built entirely on getting corporates and suppliers into the same room, first at Open Rooms, then Dental Forum, and now running his own show.In between, there's a properly strange detour: a price comparison app for beauty products, built with zero knowledge of beauty or technology, launched into a global pandemic, and later pitched successfully on Dragons Den. Ben talks candidly about what actually convinces an investor to back two people with no relevant experience, and the gut feeling he ignored right before a bus full of a hundred people failed to turn up in Dubai.There's a decent amount of shop talk here too, on why fun is a business strategy rather than an afterthought, and why splitting an event by practice size might be the most underrated idea in dental networking right now. In This Episode00:00:45 – Introduction00:01:00 – Life running dental events00:09:45 – Getting into events00:12:55 – Lessons from Open Rooms00:15:45 – Starting Skin during Covid00:21:15 – Going on Dragons Den00:26:20 – Raising money for the first time00:28:30 – Launching Dental Assembly00:33:00 – Structuring the events00:37:35 – Why fun matters00:48:45 – Touchpoints beyond the event00:50:55 – Blackbox thinking01:01:45 – Favourite resource and book01:04:40 – Fantasy dinner party01:08:05 – Growing up and life outside events About Ben BarterBen Barter is co-founder of Dental Assembly, an events business connecting dental groups with suppliers, and previously spent nine years at Open Rooms and Dental Forum. He also co-founded Skin, a price comparison app for beauty products that secured investment on Dragons Den, before returning to dental events full time.

Bashar Alturk has represented two countries at trampolining — Great Britain, then Jordan — and ruptured both his knees doing it, a year apart, once right before finals. He's also a final-year dental student at Leeds who bought his own phantom head and drill and set them up in his student room because the university wouldn't give him enough practice time.His ADHD diagnosis came late on purpose. His mum spotted it in primary school and refused to let it be labelled, worried about what that label would do to him; he didn't get assessed properly until Covid forced the question. He now credits the delay with making him work harder rather than lean on an excuse.There's a loupes business in here too, run out of that same student room, undercutting the market on price until his own dental school shut it down over a GDC conduct issue. And there's a longer, harder conversation about faith: what he actually believes about suffering and reasons, tested properly the first time his knee gave out weeks before an Olympic cycle.Payman keeps circling one question throughout: what happens when you take the "sink or swim" mentality that built an Olympic athlete and try to run a dental career on it too. In This Episode00:00:50 – Introduction00:02:10 – Growing up in Manchester00:06:40 – Getting into trampolining00:11:53 – ADHD diagnosis00:18:35 – Injuries and setbacks00:33:00 – Sacrifice and family00:41:52 – Faith and meaning00:46:25 – The phantom head00:48:28 – The loupes business01:02:41 – Delegation01:11:56 – Wanting to be known01:19:36 – Choosing a path01:20:41 – Blackbox thinking01:29:47 – Fantasy dinner party01:36:57 – Post-competition blues About Bashar AlturkBashar Alturk is a final-year dental student at the University of Leeds and an Olympic-level trampolinist, having represented both Great Britain and Jordan internationally. Alongside his studies, he founded a student loupes company, served as president of his dental society, and helped organise one of the UK's largest undergraduate dental conferences.

Afzal Haque joins Payman as a specialist endodontist and owner of Stretford Road Dental Practice, along with its referral clinic M41 Indo, in South Manchester, having spent ten years as a general dentist before making the switch.He talks candidly about hating endodontics as a young dentist, the wife who talked him into rotary instrumentation and then, years later, into selling their house to fund three years of specialist training in Liverpool. There's a properly moving stretch on the sacrifice that decision demanded of his young family, and on the culture of fear he encountered as an undergraduate that still shapes how he teaches today.This is also a masterclass in referral dentistry: building trust with generalists, pricing endodontic treatment simply, and why the happiest dentists are the ones who communicate well rather than the ones who never make mistakes.Expect sharp thinking on bioceramics, root canal myths, AI in the surgery, and a properly honest account of growing up as the only brown kid in his primary school class. In This Episode00:00:45 – Introduction00:02:10 – Family background and choosing dentistry00:13:30 – Falling into endodontics00:15:50 – Selling the house for specialist training00:22:55 – Why endo suits him better than general dentistry00:28:25 – Building a referral-based practice00:40:45 – Team, AI and running the practice00:45:35 – Endo heroes and technique00:59:15 – Bioceramics and modern materials01:01:50 – Root canal myths and AI search01:08:45 – Toxic teaching culture01:15:50 – Specialist training and family sacrifice01:24:05 – Blackbox thinking01:35:25 – Robots and the future of dentistry01:38:15 – Fantasy dinner party and growing up in Manchester About Afzal HaqueAfzal Haque is a specialist endodontist and owner of Stretford Road Dental Practice and its referral clinic, M41 Indo, in South Manchester. He spent ten years as a general dentist before training as an endodontist at the University of Liverpool, and now also works as a senior lecturer at UCLan and as a specialist adviser for the CQC.

Patrycja Galonzka joins Payman as business manager at Aspire Smiles in Warwick, having worked her way up from trainee dental nurse to the top of the practice after moving to the UK from Poland at nineteen.She talks candidly about the loss that pushed her to stay in the UK rather than go home, and how years spent as a barista and waitress taught her more about handling people than any qualification could. This is also a masterclass in practice culture: Patrycja walks through her own Caesar framework for running a team, why "anti-values" like blame and gossip do more damage than any missing policy, and why she'd rather build a team like a sports squad than a family.Expect sharp, practical thinking on KPIs, AI in the day-to-day of a practice, and why taking the blame for everything that goes wrong might be the happiest way to lead. In This Episode00:00:50 – Introduction00:01:50 – From Poland to dental nursing00:09:00 – Ambition, patience and advice to her daughter00:12:00 – Awards and ego00:17:00 – Finding your why00:19:00 – Anti-values and team culture00:22:00 – The Caesar framework00:35:00 – Empowerment and learning from mistakes00:48:00 – KPIs that matter00:52:00 – AI in the practice01:01:00 – Robots and the future of dentistry01:07:00 – Alternative business models01:21:00 – Blackbox thinking01:26:00 – Time management, boundaries and the five-year vision About Patrycja GalonzkaPatrycja Galonzka is business manager at Aspire Smiles in Warwick, having progressed there from trainee dental nurse through lead nurse and practice manager. She moved to the UK from Poland at nineteen, is the creator of the Caesar leadership framework, and now runs her own consulting business helping dental teams build stronger culture and systems alongside her practice role.

Agne Malisauskiene joins Payman as the clinical lead at the Baltic Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry and one of the world's best-known minimally invasive composite teachers, having trained thousands of dentists from her purpose-built facility in Vilnius.She talks candidly about swapping punishing NHS-style hours in Lithuania for a much gentler introduction to UK private dentistry, and how a year at a US military boarding school as a teenager shaped the discipline and leadership instincts she still relies on today.This is also a conversation about ambition and what it costs. From the competitive streak that pushed her toward the hardest degree to get into, to the guilt and logistics of teaching abroad most weekends while raising two young boys, Agne is refreshingly honest about the trade-offs behind a career built on repetition, pattern recognition and constant travel.Expect sharp reflections on gender and ambition in dental education, why composite bonding took off early in Lithuania, and a clinical mistake that changed how she treats every tooth since.In This Episode00:00:50 – Introduction00:02:40 – Building the Vilnius teaching facility00:11:57 – Moving to the UK00:18:27 – Boarding school in America00:30:57 – Family background and choosing dentistry00:39:41 – Ambition, competitiveness and sacrifice00:46:47 – Family life and growing up in Soviet-era Lithuania00:53:12 – A typical teaching week and travel logistics01:02:32 – Joining Biomimetic01:07:33 – Gender, ambition and teaching01:15:53 – Filming through the loupe camera01:22:47 – Blackbox thinking01:26:32 – Favourite resource: Layers 201:30:27 – Fantasy dinner partyAbout Agne MalisauskieneAgne Malisauskiene is an internationally recognised minimally invasive direct composite expert and the clinical lead at the Baltic Academy of Aesthetic Dentistry in Vilnius, where she trains dentists from around the world. She is a member of Biomimetic and Enlighten's distributor in Lithuania, and splits her time between her own patients and a busy international lecturing schedule.

Shyun Patel joins Payman as a final-year dental student at Liverpool, best known for founding BDSA, the biggest undergraduate dental conference the UK has seen, and for buying his own practice before he's even qualified.He talks candidly about losing the Dental Society presidency election, the autoimmune diagnosis that reshaped how he thinks about time, and the fridge-flipping side hustle that helped fund his first practice.This is also a conversation about ambition and its cost. From the cathedral gamble that saved BDSA's gala dinner to the balance between depth and breadth of impact, Shyun's reflections on business are as sharp as his reflections on himself.Expect thoughtful exchanges on hubris, communication as a clinical skill, sacrifice, and what it means to build something at 23 that most people wait decades to attempt.In This Episode00:00:50 – Introduction00:01:30 – Growing up in Liverpool00:06:14 – Communication vs skill00:08:36 – Teaching communication00:14:00 – Public misconceptions00:22:38 – Hubris00:22:52 – Insecurity and upbringing00:32:57 – Losing DentSoc presidency00:41:20 – Autoimmune diagnosis00:50:07 – Building a dating app00:58:00 – Business by osmosis01:01:26 – The value of asking01:04:32 – Scale of BDSA01:07:26 – Funding BDSA01:17:07 – Leadership and delegation01:21:00 – Sales and sponsorship01:25:10 – The cathedral gamble01:29:47 – The fridge hustle01:41:07 – Ambition and sacrifice01:47:43 – Blackbox thinking01:52:41 – Clinical vs business01:59:35 – Depth vs breadth02:01:11 – Heroes and resources02:05:29 – Fantasy dinner party02:07:31 – Five-year visionAbout Shyun PatelShyun Patel is a final-year dental student at the University of Liverpool and the founder of BDSA, the largest undergraduate dental conference staged in the UK to date. Alongside his studies he already owns a dental practice, works as a dental rep for Bryant, and is building a compatibility-focused dating app in his spare time.

Two CareStack men, one origin story that starts in a Covid ward. Adrian Dray talks Payman through the lead-management deal that nearly bankrupted him, and how that near-miss set him up to bring an American cloud practice management system into a UK market that, by his own admission, "really dislikes change." Kautham Haran, the ops brain to Adrian's front-of-house energy, explains how a fintech Start-Up background prepared him for the mess of onboarding whole dental groups onto new software. Between them they cover why CareStack bet big on a market the size of Oregon, what Rory Sutherland taught them about friction and the "doorman fallacy," and why AI receptionists might be dentistry's answer to the hoverboard fire hazard. It's a conversation about building a company from scratch inside an industry built on habit, and what happens to your ego when the whole thing goes a bit public and a bit personal.In This Episode00:01:00 - Introductions00:01:35 - Covid and crisis00:07:25 - Meeting Abby00:11:25 - Kautham's fintech past00:14:15 - The leadership trio00:16:00 - Opportunity, defined00:23:10 - Cracking the UK00:31:55 - Straumann and strategy00:36:35 - Built-in payment plans00:39:55 - Onboarding challenges00:44:55 - Surprises in dentistry00:50:25 - Software's weak spot00:54:50 - Regulation as moat00:56:20 - Shaking up events01:03:55 - Rory's insights01:14:15 - Voice Stack AI01:17:45 - AI receptionist risks01:22:45 - Blackbox thinking01:32:25 - Fantasy dinner party01:40:55 - Closing thoughtsAbout Adrian Dray and Kautham HaranAdrian Dray is director of demand generation at CareStack, a cloud-based dental practice management system, having previously worked as a data protection officer within dentistry. Kautham Haran is CareStack's head of implementation, joining from a peer-to-peer invoice finance Start-Up he co-founded straight out of the University of Warwick. Together they lead CareStack's UK operation alongside Shamanth, their head of customer success.

Neil Sikka joins Payman to reflect on a career that has moved from single-surgery NHS dentistry in Bethnal Green to building a ten-practice London group, selling to Bupa, and now helping shape clinical strategy across one of the UK’s biggest dental organisations.He talks candidly about the Barbican Dental Care years, why he chose cultural fit over the highest offer when selling, and why he still practises one day a week after decades in the profession.This is also a conversation about service. From funding a dental carriage on India’s Lifeline Express to supporting Dentaid and Mercy Ships, Neil’s work outside the surgery is just as revealing as his business story.Expect thoughtful reflections on the mouth-body connection, Bupa’s future, clinical excellence, personal branding, charitable dentistry and the quiet art of getting on with people.In This Episode00:01:00 - Bupa, leadership and clinical voice00:02:45 - From Bethnal Green to Barbican00:06:40 - Growing ten practices00:10:30 - Selling the business00:14:00 - Risk, reward and optimism00:16:10 - Lifeline Express00:21:35 - Mercy Ships and Dentaid00:28:20 - Childhood and family00:35:15 - Why he still practises00:37:30 - Blackbox thinking00:45:30 - Life inside Bupa00:52:00 - Bupa Training Academy00:57:00 - Mouth-body connection00:59:15 - Personal branding01:07:25 - A week in Neil’s life01:18:15 - Dental learning and mentors01:22:30 - Music, golf and real tennis01:25:45 - Fantasy dinner party01:28:40 - Last days and legacyAbout Neil SikkaNeil Sikka is Chief Dental Officer for Bupa Dental Insurance and Director of Dentistry at Bupa Dental Care.Before joining Bupa, he founded and grew Barbican Dental Care into a ten-practice London group, building a corporate dental plan model for major employers. He continues to practise one day a week and has long supported access-to-care projects through Dentaid, Mercy Ships and India’s Lifeline Express.