03: How to be Kinder (not Nicer), with Dr. Kelli Harding

This is Sara, and I remember the time 20 years ago when I got schooled by a psychoanalyst.  It must have been the fall, because I was supremely agitated that I was having to write, design, and send holiday cards out to a huge list of people all by myself, without the help of my fiancé.  If you know me, you know that cards were a staple of my winter growing up, with cards from my parents’ friends stapled onto long felt ribbons hanging down each doorway, surrounding us with love and smiling faces for weeks on end.  The therapist asked if I could just not do them, if it was annoying me so much, and my instant fury was revealed: Are you kidding? I have to send these cards out, it’s the nice thing to do!!  Cut to the point, and it’s this - nice according to who?  Nice for whom?  Certainly not nice for me if I were going to be resentful and pissy about it.  I came to terms with the fact that I actually just really enjoyed writing and sending cards out to people who warmed my heart that year, and that my partner wasn’t a nice person for not agreeing to send these cards out with me.   But it leads us to ask this.  What do we mean by niceness - and what, more importantly, is its not-as-related-as-it-seems and so much more important character trait of kindness?  How can understanding this difference and leaning into kindness help us be better people?   What to listen for: How a medically trained doctor got into a “touchy-feely” thing like kindness The shockingly tremendous impact that kindness has on our individual health and our societal wellbeing What’s the difference between niceness vs kindness?  Ways to begin practicing more kindness About our guest:   Kelli Harding, MD, MPH, is dedicated to creating a kinder and healthier world for all. An expert in mental health, medicine, and public health, she teaches at Columbia University’s Vagelos College of Physicians and Surgeons (VP&S) in New York City and is a diplomate of the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology, also boarded in the sub-specialty of consultation-liaison psychiatry or psychosomatic (mind-body) medicine. Known for making complex scientific research understandable to general audiences, she’s the author of the critically acclaimed book The Rabbit Effect: Live Longer, Happier, and Healthier with the Groundbreaking Science of Kindness. Dr. Harding has appeared on Today, Good Morning America, BBC, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Prevention, LA Times, Oprah Magazine, Parents, Medscape, Sesame Street Workshop, and The World Economic Forum. Additionally, she has spoken at global events at the United Nations and World Happiness Summits and served on the Boards of Organizations such as the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) and social media platform Nextdoor. Dr. Harding lives in New York City with her husband and three sons—an eleventh-grader, a ninth-grader, and a sixth-grader, and beloved rescue pup, Athena. Her next book, Different, co-authored with Sara Blanchard, will be out in Fall 2026. Website kellihardingmd.com LinkedIn Kelli Harding MD MPH Instagram @kellihardingmd

One of the ways that we believe we can be better humans is to actually listen to each other - not just nod along when we watch people’s mouths move, or wait impatiently for someone to finish their thought before we can jump in and say what we’ve been dying to say - but actually listen to what they’re saying, take a moment to reflect on that, and respond. Perhaps you ask a clarifying question, perhaps you share a reflection, perhaps you simply agree and ask for more details. Regardless of your response, if you’re really listening, people will know and will see you in a better light as a result.  If you’re curious about how to be a better listener, we offer two experts on the topic who help us understand: What do you mean by radical listening?   What to listen for: Why listening better makes you a better human Six skills important to growing your ability to listen better The role culture can play in listening and communication What environment is most conducive to listening, and what YOU can do to be a better listener  About the guests:    Dr. Robert Biswas-Diener is a researcher, author, and consultant with 75 peer-reviewed academic articles with over 27,000 citations. His previous books include The Upside of Your Dark Side (New York Times Bestseller, 2014), and the 2008 PROSE Award winner, Happiness. He has presented keynotes to Lululemon, Deloitte, Humana, AARP, The World Bank, and others. In 2024, Thinkers50 named Robert one of the “50 Most Influential Executive Coaches in the World”. He lives in Portland, Oregon, enjoying drawing and rock climbing.   Prof. Christian van Nieuwerburgh (PhD) is an academic, consultant, and executive coach. He is Professor of Coaching and Positive Psychology at the Centre for Positive Health Sciences at RCSI University of Medicine and Health Sciences (Ireland) and Consulting Professor for Growth Coaching International, a provider of coach training and consultancy for the education sector. In recognition of his contributions to the fields of positive psychology and coaching, he is Principal Fellow of the Centre for Wellbeing Science at the Melbourne Graduate School of Education of the University of Melbourne (Australia) and Honorary CollectivEd Fellow of the Carnegie School of Education at Leeds Beckett University (UK). Christian is a certified executive coach and is well published in the academic literature on the topics of coaching and positive psychology. He has authored, co-authored, and edited numerous books in the field of coaching, most notably An Introduction to Coaching Skills: A Practical Guide (2014, 2016, 2020). His latest books are Your Essential Guide to Effective Reflective Practice (2025, with David Love) and Radical Listening: The Art of True Connection (2025, with Robert Biswas- Diener).   Follow Christian on Instagram (@coachonamotorcycle), on his YouTube channel (@coachonamotorcycle), and on his website (coachonamotorcycle.com).

We have a big announcement!  We have rebranded and are now known as the podcast, What Do You Mean By That?    If you’ve listened to our former show, Dear White Women, you know that What do you mean by that? has been one of our favorite questions to use to interrupt people in a healthy way, spur on conversation, and cue ourselves to listen. Our purpose has always been to help our society realize that it’s all of us or none of us. That a world that is good for those who are most systematically oppressed is a world that’s good for all of us. After 272 episodes, we’ve come to understand just how intertwined the systems are that hold us together and keep us apart.   This is a show dedicated to helping folks talk smarter and think deeper about the world around us - even when information is flying at us at warp speed. We will not let the fire hose overwhelm us. Whether it’s about science, history, current events, social justice, or more, our community consists of people who want to be better humans, and we want to explore all the conversations in a succinct way so we can cut to the chase and help us all be better, together, for all of us.   We can’t wait to keep asking, along with you: What do you mean by that?   What to listen for:  What this new show - What Do You Mean By That? - stands for and is about Why we rebranded, including the history of our former podcast Dear White Women The commitment we have to getting in front of people to emphasize our message that it’s all of us, or none of us - and we want all of us to feel like we belong and can thrive.  

Raise your hand if you’ve been to therapy before.  My first time, if I’m remembering correctly, is a few months after my Dad died when I was in my mid-twenties, and my college roommate set me up with her aunt, who was a renowned psychoanalyst.  She also happened to be Asian. Now that it’s been decades and I’ve had so many more experiences with so many more therapists, all of whom have been white, I realize how rare and fortunate it was for me to have had that experience of a therapist who culturally understood me, which then played a formative role in my own understanding of my relationship with myself, my parents, self care and success and my place in the world.    If you’ve never had the experience of having therapists who are the same race as you, you might really get this visceral sense of relief that we are talking about.  This unspoken understanding that can-not always, but often, exist in those spaces of similarity.  I think it’s played a huge part in the relationship we have had, as multi-ethnic daughters of one Japanese immigrant parent and one white American parent each - there were just some things we didn’t have to explain to each other.   Which is why when we learned about a whole mental health support system - one we’ve come to learn doesn’t have to just include therapists, but a whole system of community support - that is centered on Asian Americans, we wanted to seize the opportunity to talk about culturally responsive care, about what it means to work on ourselves to be better people, and more. What to listen for: What it means to be a better person  Therapy 101 - what challenges people go to therapy for, what types of therapists are out there What culturally responsive care means, and how this applies to the Asian American community  How we can support our own mental health, and that of others About our guests:  Soo Jin Lee, a licensed therapist, executive director of Yellow Chair Collective, and co-founder of Entwine Community, has made a profound impact in mental health advocacy, shaped by her own experiences as an Asian immigrant. Her work focuses on culturally responsive mental health care, addressing the unique challenges faced by immigrant and Asian American communities. She co-authored the influential book Where I Belong: Healing Trauma and Embracing Asian American Identity, which explores identity and healing through a culturally informed lens. Recognized by NPR, PBS, CBS, and CUNY, Soo Jin is dedicated to fostering community support and advancing culturally sensitive mental health services.   Linda Yoon is the founder of Yellow Chair Collective and co-founder of Entwine Community, organizations dedicated to addressing mental health education and service gaps in services for BIPOC communities, with a special focus on Asian Americans. She is recognized as a co-author of the book "Where I Belong: Healing Trauma and Embracing Asian American Identity," which delves deeply into themes of Asian American identity and resilience, alongside the racial, cultural, and intergenerational dynamics present within Asian American communities. Linda's work has been recognized and featured in media outlets including NPR, PBS, CBS, LA Times, and Buzzfeed. With a heartfelt commitment to well-being and community empowerment, Linda drives changes through mental health programs and advocacy initiatives.   Brief synopsis of the book: Soo Jin Lee and Linda Yoon have personally observed the frequent neglect of mental health issues in their own immigrant families and within Asian and Asian American communities. Their book "Where I Belong" illuminates how trauma perpetuates through generations and impacts relationships, emphasizing the Asian American experience for better understanding and healing of racial and intergenerational trauma.   “Where I Belong” offers crucial therapeutic techniques, reflective questions, journaling prompts, and grounding exercises, empowering readers to recognize their intergenerational strengths and resilience and to fully embrace their identity and cultural heritage.   About Yellow Chair Collective: Yellow Chair Collective is a psychotherapist group with a special focus on Asian and Asian American identity based in California, Oregon, Washington, and New York. Asian Americans and the multicultural population struggle with unique pain points. Much of what Asian American and multicultural therapy identifies as intergenerational trauma or racial discrimination has been neglected and dismissed throughout American history. As a Collective, we are dedicated to bridging cultural identity as a huge part of everyone’s mental struggles.   The Yellow Chair Collective

Picture a successful business leader, and experience says you’re most likely to be picturing a white male right now.  Similarly, the realm of business books has been dominated by white males for so, so long - which is why we find it incredibly refreshing to talk with someone who does NOT fit that mold and has an unforgettable presence all the same.   What to listen for:  What made Lorraine K Lee write the book Unforgettable Presence? The many layers of creating a strong presence, including cultural upbringing, introversion vs extraversion, and more  The top three tips on where to start creating your authentic presence Advice to the Asian woman middle manager during AANHPI month - find a sponsor! About our guest:  Lorraine K. Lee is a keynote speaker, best-selling author of Unforgettable Presence: Get Seen, Gain Influence, and Catapult Your Career, and instructor with LinkedIn Learning and Stanford. She is recognized as a LinkedIn Top Voice with hundreds of thousands of followers and has a decade of experience leading editorial teams at top tech firms. Her insights have appeared in outlets such as CNBC, Bloomberg, and Fast Company.  

By the time a human is six years old, they’re usually in formal schooling with wide-open minds, ready to learn.  You’re learning that you can’t bring peanut butter in because some classmates might be allergic to peanuts (which shows you how to be a considerate citizen); you’re learning that you can’t call Suzie an idiot (because words have power); that baking soda and vinegar can propel that paper mache volcano (as in, science is real); and that when adults say “maybe” as in “maybe we’ll go to get ice cream for lunch” they’re not always telling the truth (developing our critical thinking).   Why all this talk about six-year-olds? Well, as you might have guessed, here at Dear White Women, we’re wrapping up year SIX of this podcast, which makes us, as a platform, similar in many ways to that small human that we were just talking about. A lot of this has been a journey in those skills for us, and, hopefully, you, too, have learned a little bit along this journey of 270 episodes and counting.   Here is to where we’ve been, and where we’re going as we move into our SEVENTH year of podcasting. And to everyone asking, “So, you done now?” Given everything that’s going on in the world (and specifically in the United States since January 20, 2025), we’ve got a never-ending supply of topics. Suffice it to say, we’ve still got a lot more to talk about, with each other, and with you - and we’ll soon be sharing with you how we’re changing this platform to give us the ability to say even more. Thanks, as always, for listening.   What to listen for: How and why we started this podcast Our personal whys - and what keeps us going, especially over this last year Favorite episodes from this last year How you can bring us in to speak with your organizations about how to have difficult conversations, and/or why belonging still matters - we each individually, and together, do lots of speaking engagements Subscribe to the show to keep updated on the changes coming to our platform!  Follow Dear White Women on your favorite podcast platform, so you don’t miss these conversations! Catch up on more commentary between episodes by following us on Instagram and get more by joining our email list. Subscribe to the Podcast Listening on iTunes?  Click here to subscribe!  Listening on Android? Click here to subscribe! Follow us on social media to continue the conversation!

Even if you’re not a lawyer, the challenge that this administration is mounting to the rule of law affects you, too. When the president challenges the judiciary, when we as a country go after lawyers simply for doing their actual jobs, it hurts all of us.  What’s happening now is weakening our judicial branch and centering power in the executive branch. Maybe you’ve heard the term “unitary executive”? This basically means that the jobs of the other two branches, or the other two branches of government themselves, can be told what to do by the President, as the power becomes consolidated solely in that branch. As we are recording this, Cory Booker is almost 20 hours into the third-longest speech on the Senate floor, and THAT is the fire that we need from Congress and the legislative branch, which has been largely lacking until now in this triangle of power. But we need also accountability in order for democracy to work: Due process keeps us from disappearing people in the night, the right to representation keeps the President from telling law firms and prosecutors who they can represent, and our current system, if we let it, is heading towards that unitary executive, which is basically a dictatorship. So it was wonderful to speak with Debbie Hines, a former prosecutor, assistant state attorney general, and trial attorney, on her take on what’s not only happening in our current administration, but how we can conceptualize the role of our legal system in our world, and how we can fight for a better, more expansive role for the judiciary and the justice system rather than playing small and bending the knee to those who would destroy it.   What to listen for: A clear explanation for the different layers of lawyers who work to keep our communities abiding by the rule of law - from trial attorneys to prosecutors to attorneys general Reflections and contextualizing what is happening with our current administration What’s broken about our current legal system How each of us can take action towards changing it Recommendations:  Visit local courts to see how prosecutors work Meeting with people who have encountered the prosecutorial system and/or are incarcerated → listen to Marcus Bullock episodes  Educate family, friends, coworkers based on info in this book – support diversion, restorative justice, and community-based programs, as many have better recidivism rates  Decline to prosecute 13 million misdemeanor cases annually (80% of criminal cases prosecuted in state courts); instead, support the idea of punching up and go after economic fraud, things that hurt more people About Debbie: Former Baltimore prosecutor, Assistant Attorney General for the State of Maryland, and trial attorney Debbie Hines is an advocate for racial equity in the criminal justice system. She maintains a private law practice focused on civil and criminal litigation in Washington, DC. A leading voice in the discourse of criminal justice and race, Hines is often called on by media networks for legal commentary.   Other resources: Episodes #83 + 84 with Marcus Bullock Episode #37: 99 Problems and the Criminal Justice System  Episode #41 with Ji Seon Song 

Between the time when we recorded this episode and this introduction, so many of our learning institutions, including the Department of Education and the Institute of Museum and Library Services, are being systematically or haphazardly dismantled at the whim of our current President(s). This may send us into a spiral of despair - or, may even freeze us in place and render us unable to act.   But … what if these challenges brought us into the fight, instead?   Our two guests on this episode co-founded organizations designed to do just that - fight back. They are just like you and me, except they saw what was wrong in their communities and decided to do something about it. We hope that you listen to Gaby and Lissette’s stories in this episode and share them far and wide. We are not powerless. We, the people, can do so much. And now is the time: find what you love, and fight for it in your communities. All of us, or none of us. And we need books, and the truth, now more than ever.   What to listen for: Which (now banned) books shaped early life in important ways for Gaby and Lisette  How each of them started their respective organizations and the “why” behind doing so What to do to support their work, as well as get involved/start your own fight   About Lissette: Lissette Fernandez, of Miami, Florida, is the co-founder of Moms for Libros, a nonprofit, nonpartisan public education advocacy (because a good quality education should be a nonpartisan issue). As a mother of two, she is dedicated to ensuring that all children have access to a high-quality, equitable education.    About Gaby: Gaby Diaz-Vendrell is a senior at Barnard College, double majoring in psychology and human rights with a minor in education. She began organizing at 14 in response to the 2018 Parkland shooting and has since worked with Women’s March, Florida Action Network, Florida N.O.W., and other public interest organizations. In 2024, Diaz-Vendrell founded Our Florida, a coalition of parents, students, and educators working on The Protect Florida Classrooms Act, a bill designed to challenge Florida's arbitrary book bans through civil rights law. At her core, she is dedicated to building a world where the dignity of every human is respected, justice prevails, and systems uplift rather than oppress.  

Gaslighting.  Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse that involves manipulating someone into questioning their sanity, memories, or perception of reality.  Sounds horrible right?  An example of this: a person or institution may say that an activist campaigning for change is irrational or “crazy,” or they may deny biases if someone confronts them about microaggressions. Nobody wants to be gaslit – it makes you feel confused, anxious, and isolated, and we know from research that feeling like that can have a real impact on your mental AND physical health.   But here we are, being gaslit by the leaders of our very own United States government. And when we say things like this, I keep coming back to George Orwell’s quote from 1984 - or was it 2025? - which says: “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.” This is exactly what’s happening now. So - how do we keep ourselves from being fooled? How do we make sure that our collective mental and physical health as a nation doesn’t go down the toilet? We need to gather evidence to counteract the denial, the trivializing, the stereotyping that’s happening. So, in this episode, that’s what we’re going to do. Gather evidence to make sure you have all the info you need to stand up and push back against people who say what’s happening is normal. Educate yourselves and then each other because mainstream media is covering the chaos. We (the collective we, I mean)  have to cover the truth. To be clear: nothing that’s happening now is normal. And we cannot be gaslit into thinking it is.   What to listen for: Why the government is not actually bloated, and the mass firings are illegal How tariffs are taxes, which will be increasing prices for YOU at the register - for eggs, houses, appliances, and more Safety and security are at risk - both domestically with air traffic concerns, all the way to the shift in our international world order - and with the reduction in healthcare and schooling, among other things sure to come  What you can do, both locally and through calling your representatives. Use 5calls.org. Follow the Project 2025 Tracker: https://www.project2025.observer/ Further resources, from the Grassroots Connector substack: Investigative Journalism with Traditional Roots AP News: Globally trusted source of fast, accurate, and unbiased news. Operates as a nonprofit cooperative owned by major U.S. daily newspapers, radio, and TV stations, which share its news stories. Articles are written by staff in 100 countries and all 50 states, most of whom are members of the Newspaper Guild Union, part of the AFL-CIO—committed to nonpartisan, fact-based reporting, upholding the highest transparency, accuracy, and integrity standards while championing press freedom and journalist safety worldwide. The Courier: A pro-democracy news network aiming to counter misinformation, hold leaders accountable, and build a more informed and engaged electorate, covering policies affecting communities, focusing on democracy, economic justice, healthcare, climate, and inequality. Owned by Good Information Inc., COURIER, a public benefit corporation, is funded by reader contributions, sponsors, and philanthropic support while maintaining editorial independence. The Guardian: Global news organization delivering independent, progressive investigative journalism that holds power to account and amplifies unheard voices. The primary shareholder is the Scott Trust, which reinvests all profits to support public-interest journalism free from political or corporate influence (more on Scott Trust here). Over half of its funding is from readers worldwide. Mother Jones: A nonprofit, reader-supported investigative newsroom founded in 1976. America’s oldest investigative news outlet focusing on democracy, voting rights, racial justice, and reproductive rights. Based in San Francisco (with bureaus in Washington, DC, and NYC) MJ is a progressive, independent news source. NPR: An independent, nonprofit media organization known for in-depth, fact-based journalism. Supported by a diverse pool of revenue, including corporate sponsorships, member station fees, and philanthropic contributions. NPR is committed to transparency and journalistic integrity. MeidasTouch Network (MTN): founded by brothers Ben, Brett, and Jordy Meiselas, is a pro-democracy, independently owned news network. The network's news division, MeidasNews.com, is led by former prosecutor Ron Filipkowski. The network features contributions from prominent legal analysts, journalists, and political experts, including Karen Friedman Agnifilo, Michael Popok, Harry Litman, and Brian Karem. ProPublica: An independent, nonprofit newsroom dedicated to exposing abuses of power and betrayals of public trust through investigative journalism. With a team of over 150 journalists, ProPublica tackles critical issues like government, business, health care, and the environment, aiming to spur real-world reform and accountability. Founded in 2007, ProPublica is funded primarily by donations. See financials here. Reuters: 170-year-old global news agency, guided by its Trust Principles to ensure integrity, independence, and unbiased reporting. Its fact-checking unit focuses on verifying claims and visual material from social media, with findings published on Reuters.com. Adheres to its Code of Principles as a signatory of the International Fact-Checking Network (IFCN). Rolling Stone: Over the last several years, RP has earned a reputation as a trusted progressive voice by holding the powerful accountable and shining a light on injustice. Progressive and disruptive (in the best sense of the word). The 19th: A nonprofit newsroom founded in 2020 to empower women and LGBTQ+ people, emphasizing  underrepresented communities, with free, independent journalism focused on gender, politics, and policy. Named for the 19th Amendment, its mission highlights the ongoing struggle for equity and inclusion in democracy. Funded by memberships, philanthropy, and corporate support. (Donors are listed by name for the sake of transparency). Teen Vogue: A strong voice in politics, takes a progressive stance, and amplifies perspectives of young people on issues like democracy, identity, and social justice. Editor-in-Chief Versha Sharma describes it as “a guide and resource for young people who want to change the world for the better, all the while, reminding them to have fun and find joy doing it.” ​​

In the United States, there are an estimated 1.6 million people who identify as transgender, which is about 0.6% of the population ages 13 and older.  It’s about the equivalent of the population of Phoenix, Arizona; it’s just about how many people said on the US Census in 2021 that they are Japanese.  Of course this population matters – AND, it’s not a large percentage of our American population.  Yet the inordinate number of laws that have already been passed or changed since #47 was re-inaugurated, ones that harm the transgender community and the individuals and families in it, is astounding. In other words, although this group doesn’t comprise a large percentage of our American population, it is being disproportionately targeted by this administration.  The cruelty is the point, sure. But what can we do about it? How can we be an ally? Let’s start with organizations to support. If you have the ability to donate or volunteer, here are a few that we like: the Transgender Law Center, Advocates for Trans Equality, The Trevor Project, The Trans Lifeline, and GLAAD. Also, you’ll want to make sure to check what organizations are available locally as well, as it will be your local communities where you can have the most impact. Next, listen to this episode - or re-listen, if you heard it come out before. Buy Schuyler’s book. Tell all your friends. We have to talk about what it means to be transgender, and how the transgender lived experience differs from ours, if we want to truly be allies and not just performatively say we are. This is where we say, and mean it: all of us, or none of us. We hope you listen, and take action. What to listen for:  Intersectionality, and Schuyler’s own experience growing up biracial   The importance of exploring why you are who you are, for ALL of us, when it comes to gender  The quick take-down of the arguments from people working to push trans women out of women’s sports A bullet pointed list of what NOT to say to transgender folks [TIMESTAMP PLEASE] How to remind yourself of joy and a sense of thriving in the world, when it gets rough What Schuyler wants cisgender, heterosexual women to do differently, once you listen to the episode  About Schuyler:  Schuyler Bailar (he/him) is an educator, advocate, and bestselling author who made history as the first transgender athlete to compete in any sport on an NCAA Division 1 men’s team. Originally recruited to swim for the Harvard women’s team, Schuyler made the difficult choice to transition while potentially giving up the prospect of being a women’s NCAA Champion. His story has appeared everywhere from 60 Minutes to The Washington Post and the Ellen Show. Schuyler’s tireless advocacy has earned him numerous honors, including Forbes 30 Under 30 and the Out 100. In 2023, Schuyler’s critically acclaimed nonfiction bestseller became the preeminent resource on trans inclusion, He/She/They: How We Talk About Gender and Why It Matters. Schuyler’s works include his middle-grade novel Obie Is Man Enough, his online gender literacy training LaneChanger.com, and his hit podcast Dear Schuyler, including exclusive interviews with trans icons and allies like Lia Thomos, Dylan Mulvaney, Rafael de la Fuente, and many more. Resources Follow Schuyler on Instagram @pinkmantaray  Consider donating to Schuyler’s non-profit, which is underwriting a retreat for transgender athletes in May 2025 (and if you want more information, send us an email): https://www.paypal.com/donate?campaign_id=SKPQ7DUZXATAL How else can you support transgender lives? https://www.them.us/story/orgs-fighting-back-anti-trans-legislation