Is The Tide Turning On Hydrogen? Ep210: Andrew Forrest

Oil and gas companies lie at the heart of the energy transition. To some, they are heroes, continuing to power human progress despite all the odds. To some, they are villains, responsible for the climate change that is devastating our planet. This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich interviews Ben van Beurden, former CEO of Shell from 2014 to 2023. The conversation explores the complexities of the energy transition, climate change, and the role of oil and gas companies in addressing global emissions.Van Beurden argues that there's no silver bullet solution to climate change, emphasizing the need for multiple approaches and a holistic view of energy transformation. He believes oil and gas companies will play a crucial role in developing clean energy solutions and driving systemic change, but ultimately we must move away from polluting fossil fuels in pursuit  of the prize of Clean Energy.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more:Episode 204, the Sierra Leone special: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-5QjSfy2SM Ep111: Daniel Yergin "The World's Most Influential Energy Analyst – https://youtu.be/8QIh4U3VgjcEp86: From Climate Law Maker to Superglued Law Breaker – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDo7hkcsRFA

What happens if the Amazon rainforest stops absorbing carbon and starts releasing it? Do we need geoengineering to help us cool an overheating planet? And how can developing countries balance environmental preservation with economic development?This week on Cleaning Up, Baroness Bryony Worthington sits down with Thelma Krug, a renowned Brazilian scientist and mathematician, and former vice chair of the IPCC, to explore these critical questions.Krug offers an insider's perspective, drawing from her decades of experience monitoring the Amazon rainforest and participating in international climate negotiations.The conversation ranges from the alarming transformation of the Amazon from a carbon sink to a potential carbon source, to the controversial realm of solar radiation management. As it prepares to host COP30 in Belem in November, Krug provides nuanced insights into Brazil's challenges, the complexities of global climate policy, and the potential for innovative solutions like biofuels and international collaboration.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover more:• Sierra Leone special: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-5QjSfy2SM• COP30 website: https://cop30.br/en• Degrees Global Forum: https://degreesglobalforum.org• Episode 168 with Anand Gopal: https://youtu.be/33QiMC4nG1k

What will it take to finally wean Europe off Russian gas? Can renewables help with grid stability? And is the EU making a mistake subsidising hydrogen? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with EU Energy and Housing Commissioner Dan Jørgensen to dissect the continent's energy transformation. In this wide ranging interview recorded at the Berlaymont building in Brussels — the home of the European Commission — Liebreich and Jørgensen delve into critical topics including reducing dependency on Russian energy, the economics of renewable technologies, the role of nuclear power, and the contentious economics of green hydrogen. Jørgensen defends the EU's ambitious climate goals while addressing concerns about cost, competitiveness, and political pushback against the green transition. Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more:Sierra Leone special: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-5QjSfy2SMDecarbonizing the last few percent: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/decarbonizing-the-last-few-percentLessons from Spain: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/lessons-from-spainEU Hydrogen Strategy: https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/eus-energy-system/hydrogen_en  

The world's electricity system is transforming: We're integrating more and more variable renewables. Fossil plants are running fewer hours. Demand is growing everywhere, including in the developed world, as we electrify transport and heating, and AI data centers elbow their way onto the grid. Some people find this very threatening but not Antonio Cammisecra, CEO of ContourGlobal. CounterGlobal is a leading independent power producer who is well on their way to transition away from coal to electricity production based on renewables and gas. Antonio joins Michael on Cleaning Up to discuss how to build resilience and security in renewable-dominated grids, how ContourGlobal's battery storage systems are delivering solar at night, and why grids around the world are struggling to cope as electricity demand rises. Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover More: ContourGlobal's website: https://www.contourglobal.comEpisode 74 with Francesco Starace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_LnZz09Cwk Episode 201 with Nikso Tsafos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUvKzs82Mi0Episode 208 with Anders Lindberg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtsCCJ4o1WA The Year Energy Woke Up to AI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwZ2iNh133A Decarbonizing the last few percent: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/decarbonizing-the-last-few-percent Lessons from Spain: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/lessons-from-spain 

Billionaire iron magnate Andrew Forrest believes he's on the cusp of a breakthrough to decarbonise shipping and heavy industry using hydrogen. As the Executive Chairman of the Fortescue, one of the world's largest iron ore companies, Andrew Forrest is not an easy to pigeonhole industrial billionaire. He built Fortescue into a hugely successful company, partly thanks to his belief in taking unconventional paths. After a serious accident meant he had to take a break from work, he enrolled in a PhD in marine science. For over a decade now, has been very vocally committed to getting his company's practices aligned with a climate-safe pathway. More recently, he's also been shaking fellow CEOs and leaders out of climate complacency by highlighting the risks of lethal humidity. This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington asks Andrew about the current climate crusade he's on, what he makes of the recent policy decisions taken by the International Maritime Organization (IMO) to agree carbon penalties for highly emitting ships, and if hydrogen can compete with renewables to be the power source of the future. Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover More:Fortescue's website: https://www.fortescue.com/enThe Sierra Leone Special: https://youtu.be/z-5QjSfy2SMHydrogen Insider: 'The market didn’t turn up' | Fortescue's green hydrogen boss exits the company: https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/production/the-market-didn-t-turn-up-fortescues-green-hydrogen-boss-exits-the-companyClean Hydrogen's Missing Trillions - Audioblog 13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNxCrQyCTpk

Have the bond markets become a new form of global governance? Are we witnessing the end of US economic exceptionalism? And how does game theory relate to cooperation on net-zero?This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with renowned economist Mohamed El-Erian to unpack the complex intersections of global finance, politics, and climate change. El-Erian offers insights into the current economic landscape, exploring how central banks, trade tensions, and technological innovations are reshaping our understanding of international economics. From the rise of China's green technology sector and the scrapping of Canada’s carbon tax to bond vigilantism and the potential long-term consequences of US trade policy, this episode provides a nuanced look at the challenges and opportunities facing the global economy in an era of unprecedented uncertainty.Find more: The Sierra Leone Special: https://youtu.be/z-5QjSfy2SMMohamed’s website: https://www.mohamedel-erian.com/How China Became a Green Finance Superpower: https://youtu.be/Fu6giWzTxAYLeadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.

Can You Run A Grid Without Fossil Fuels? "Yes," says Anders Lindberg, President of Energy and Executive VP at Wärtsilä, on this week's episode of Cleaning Up. It'll just cost €65 trillion extra by 2050. Anders' team at Wärtsilä has recently published its Crossroads to Net Zero report, which argues that keeping a little bit of flexible generation on the grid will save huge amounts of money as the globe strives for net zero, while also speeding up the transition to renewables. The argument centres on what to do with the last few percent of power supply, and what forms of generation need to be built to ensure consistent electricity supply and prevent black or brown outs.Perhaps unsurprisingly for a gas engine manufacturer, Wärtsilä's report makes the case that gas should provide the last few percentage points of electricity generation. Michael Liebreich puts that claim to the test. Discover more:Wärtsilä's Crossroads to Net Zero report: https://www.wartsila.com/energy/towards-100-renewable-energy/choosing-the-optimal-pathway-for-energy-transitionCan Germany’s Gas Giant Go Green? Ep206: Michael Lewis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOD-f6uSPgcQ&A: What we do – and do not – know about the blackout in Spain and Portugal — https://www.carbonbrief.org/qa-what-we-do-and-do-not-know-about-the-blackout-in-spain-and-portugal/ENTSO-E expert panel initiates the investigation into the causes of Iberian blackout: https://www.entsoe.eu/news/2025/05/09/entso-e-expert-panel-initiates-the-investigation-into-the-causes-of-iberian-blackoutLeadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.

Geothermal seems to have found new favour under Donald Trump's presidency, but can it ever live up to its potential? Will the oil and gas industry reinvent itself before becoming obsolete? And how might geothermal energy change the global energy landscape?This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington talks to Jamie Beard, founder of Project InnerSpace, about why geothermal energy has never lived up to its hype, and whether it has the potential do so.  Currently generating less than 1% of global energy, Beard believes that geothermal could become a game-changing technology that can leverage existing drilling expertise from the oil and gas sector to provide 24/7 energy.Beard breaks down the technical and economic challenges facing geothermal energy, exploring its potential to provide stable, clean power and heat across different global regions. From the United States to India, she outlines how next-generation geothermal technologies could offer a more consistent renewable energy solution.This conversation was recorded live at Geothermal House, as part of San Francisco Climate week.Leadership Circle:Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.Discover More:• The Sierra Leone Special: https://youtu.be/z-5QjSfy2SM• Project InnerSpace: https://projectinnerspace.org/• Brony’s episode with Cindy Taff of Sage Geothermal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3I2fn9_atE• The Department of Energy’s Next-Generation Geothermal Power Commercial Liftoff: https://liftoff.energy.gov/next-generation-geothermal-power/

When Russia unleashed its illegal and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, gas prices in Europe spiked by a factor of 10, driving a wave of bankruptcies and restructurings of European energy companies. Uniper was one of those. Uniper is one of Germany's largest energy companies. It is active across more than 40 countries and has 19.5 GW of power generation capacity to its name. It was one of the funders of the built-but-never-used Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline that connects Russia to Germany and, for most of its history, was heavily reliant on Russian gas. So when the gas taps from Russia were turned off, Uniper reported losses of $40 billion — the highest losses in German corporate history — and was subsequently nationalised by the German government. The company has since returned to profitability under its new CEO, Michael Lewis, our guest this week on Cleaning Up. Michael Lewis joins Michael Liebreich to discuss the company's rise from the ashes, and how it plans to reach its climate targets and overcome the dunkelflaute.Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. More from Cleaning Up:The Sierra Leone documentary: https://youtu.be/z-5QjSfy2SMEp164 — Leonhard Birnbaum, CEO of EON: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa-DHuPNEDgEpisode 175 — Greg Jackson, CEO of Octopus Energy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl-cRh35Hm4Episode 190 — Lord Adair Turner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxTngGxpeW0 

In 100 short days, the world has transformed. Since the reelection of President Donald Trump, US federal climate policy has largely been abandoned, with the government seeking to reopen coal-fired power plants and lower environmental standards. An escalating trade war and global tariffs has sent the rest of the world reeling and threatened the global financial system with collapse. China has come under particular fire, but the US has also targeted its closest allies and neighbours — Canada, Mexico and the EU — with tariffs. Any sense of certainty has been thrown out of the window as a more inward looking US seeks to reshape the global order. So what does all this mean for the energy transition, and plans to reach net-zero? Michael Liebreich and Baroness Bryony Worthington join forces for the opening episode of Season 15 of Cleaning Up to discuss. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP of Portugal, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live. Discover more: Cleaning Up’s Sierra Leone Documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-5QjSfy2SMCleaning Up’s interview with Mark Carney: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtA5ufMzKAUEmber’s Global Electricity Review: https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/global-electricity-review-2025/Michael’s AI Update on Deepseek: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/ai-data-centre-power-and-glory-anMichael’s retreat inside an old millhouse: https://lemoulindabondance.com/