#265: How Agentic AI is changing app growth, from acquisition to retention with Andy Carvel, Ed Brocklebank, Matt Dyson, and Sven Jurgens

Performance marketers are running out of levers — and the one most teams haven't pulled yet is signal. In this episode, we speak with Shumel Lais , Founder of Day30, about signal engineering and why it may be the most important skill in performance marketing right now. Shumel explains what signal engineering actually is, how prediction models use behavioural data to identify high-value users before they ever convert, and why synthetic events — goals you engineer rather than observe — help ad platforms like Meta find better users faster. He also shares how subscription apps have achieved up to 50% reductions in CAC, and why, with everything else becoming automated, signal is now one of only two levers performance marketers still control. If you work in user acquisition or subscription growth, this is a must-listen. Today’s topics include: What signal engineering is — and how it differs from simply tracking conversion events How prediction models use behavioural data to score users by conversion probability Synthetic events — engineering goals that don't yet exist to give ad platforms a sharper target Why subscription apps generate the behavioural data depth that makes signal engineering work The three components of an effective signal: volume, velocity, and precision Why performance marketers are down to just two levers — creative and signal Links and Resources: Shumel Lais on LinkedIn Day30 Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Shumel Lais “The concept of signal engineering is to see how we can manipulate that event to give the ad platforms a stronger correlation to the business value that you're after." "A synthetic event is, ultimately, when we're creating an event that doesn't actually exist. These are not things that have actually occurred — but based on the data we take in, we can build this from scratch." "When I think of performance marketing now, everything's become very algorithmic and very black box. There's less and less levers available for marketers to pull. I think there's only really two levers left — one is creative, and the second lever is signal." Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

Hi, welcome to the Business of Apps podcast! Today, we have a special episode for you. We're featuring our recent webinar, presented by Aampe - agentic infrastructure for personalized experiences. It brings together four mobile growth leaders to cut through the AI hype and share what's actually working — from app user acquisition to retention. This session goes beyond buzzwords to unpack the real unit economics of AI-driven testing, the challenges of letting go of control, and what companies like Blinkist are learning on the ground as they make the shift from automation to agentic systems. Without any further ado, let's go! The topics covered on the webinar: The real value of ai in mobile growth today AI tools for non-technical teams What is agentic ai? (plain-english explanation) Feature's "press play": automated aso at scale Trust, control & human-in-the-loop From automation to agentic: what gets harder Building knowledge bases & setting guardrails Letting go of control: risk/reward balance Observability & attribution in agentic marketing Blinkist × amp: real-world agentic crm Strategic ai vs. execution ai Reinforcement learning explained  Final takeaways & recommendations The expert panel: 👥 Sven Jurgens – Mobile Growth Consultant (Host) 👥 Andy Carvel – Partner & Co-Founder at Phiture 👥 Matt Dyson – VP Marketing, Blinkist 👥 Ed Brocklebank – Head of Solutions, Aampe Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

Brand visibility is no longer just about winning the attention of consumers — it's about being eligible to exist in the spaces where discovery happens. In this episode, we speak with Lavinea Morris, Managing Director EMEA at M&C Saatchi Performance, about what it really takes for brands to show up in an AI-driven world. Lavinea introduces the concept of "eligibility" — the idea that before an ad is ever seen, brands must first earn the right to appear. She explains how the rise of AI and generative engine optimization is reshaping discoverability, why performance marketing is now an organization-wide responsibility, and what the "eligibility tax" costs brands that aren't paying attention. From taxonomy and content to trust signals and data feeds, she makes the case that getting found is no longer the job of one team — or one channel. If you work in performance marketing, growth, or brand strategy, this is a timely conversation about what it means to be visible when the machines are doing the filtering. Today’s topics include: Why attention metrics are more romanticized than useful — and what to measure instead Brand eligibility: what it takes to be visible before an ad is even shown The eligibility tax — the compounding cost brands pay for not showing up in AI-filtered spaces How M&C Saatchi Performance's role has evolved from media buying to full-stack brand consulting Why generative engine optimization (GEO) is becoming as critical as traditional SEO Why performance marketing is no longer just the performance marketer's job Why waiting is never a strategy — especially in a challenging economic climate Links and Resources: Lavinea Morris on LinkedIn M&C Saatchi Performance Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Lavinea Morris “It depends what attention means to you. Every brand or client will consider attention differently... I think it's a slightly romanticized metric. We have to be thinking about what happens before the ad was seen. How eligible is your brand? How are you able to be seen in the ecosystems that we're operating in?” “Legibility tax is what I like to talk about — the price that brands pay for not being eligible. The reality is we're seeing rising costs, and it's not always because of the performance media. It's actually how you're showing up in these spaces. And are other brands doing better than you, getting that first mover advantage? What does that cost you?” “We've spent so many years talking about getting the attention of the humans — be it creative, putting the ads in the right place at the right time. I think now it's so exciting: how do you get the attention of the machines? And that is a new space, but an easy space for us to be working in.” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

What if your MarTech stack was actually working  for you instead of against you? In this episode, Amanda and Adam of Branch are joined by Rebecca Nackson, CEO of Notable, to explore why most companies fail at implementation after buying marketing tools, how to enlist salespeople as strategic partners in the buying process, and the systems that separate high-growth teams from stalled ones. From reframing a non-linear career as intentional pattern recognition ("career squiggles"), to closing the costly gap between signing a contract and actually operationalizing a tool, to acting as "connective tissue" across siloed acquisition, retention, and product teams, Rebecca shares practical insights from years spent inside Audible, iHeartRadio, Bandsintown, and now leading her own marketing consultancy. Whether you're drowning in marketing software, trying to make sense of your growth stack, or wondering how AI and low-code tools will reshape build vs. buy decisions, this conversation offers a grounded look at moving from tool chaos to strategic clarity. Links and Resources: Rebecca Nackson on LinkedIn Notable website Branch – Mobile Attribution Platform and App Analytics Solutions For Enterprises Today's topics include: Why "career squiggles" beat linear planning — how adjacent roles across industries compound into pattern-recognition expertise The implementation gap no one talks about: why vendors over-invest in sales and under-invest in helping you operationalize tools post-signature How to flip the buying process and use vendor evaluations to simultaneously inform discovery and implementation roadmaps Acting as "connective tissue" between siloed teams in remote-first orgs — getting acquisition and retention to share data instead of blaming each other The test-learn-scale loop that separates compounding teams from big-swing teams, and why pre-defining success and kill criteria is non-negotiable How AI and low-code tools are blurring the build vs. buy line — and why some tools may no longer be worth paying for The "job to be done" mindset — why asking what's broken beats asking which tool to buy Quotes from Rebecca Nackson: "The ones that are succeeding, it is because they have a system." "You can't scale what you don't trust." "It's a career that's not a straight line. It takes all these squiggles and it makes all the sense in the world in hindsight."

What if AI didn’t replace your creative team, but made them more creative than ever? In this episode, Amanda and Adam of Branch are joined by Jen Taylor to explore how AI is changing the way creative teams work, produce, and scale content without losing the human touch. From breaking down the real role of AI in creative production and why it won’t replace artists, to how teams can use AI to iterate faster, test more ideas, and focus on higher-value creative work, Jen shares practical insights from the front lines of AI-driven marketing and content creation. Whether you’re building a creative team, scaling marketing production, or trying to understand where AI actually fits into your workflow, this conversation offers a grounded look at how AI can amplify creativity rather than replace it. Links and Resources: Jen Taylor  on LinkedIn Capacity Interactive website Branch - Mobile Attribution Platform and App Analytics Solutions For Enterprises Today’s topics include: How teams can treat AI as a strategic collaborator rather than just a productivity tool, helping refine audience targeting, messaging, and campaign direction  A practical three-stage approach to adopting AI: first set internal policies, then train teams on prompting and tools, and finally connect AI initiatives to measurable business outcomes Why ethical considerations are especially important for creative and arts organizations, including questions around ownership, environmental impact, and imitation, and why intentional tool selection matters Ways organizations can maintain consistency across teams by using AI tools trained on brand voice, tone, and mission while still keeping human review in place The idea of “human-driven AI,” where people remain involved at every stage — from prompts to review — to maintain quality and avoid low-quality automated output Using AI to analyze audiences and personalize messaging by testing content across different segments and allowing AI to uncover new audience opportunities and insights Quotes from Jen Taylor: “AI can do anything, which is overwhelming and changes how it functions as a tool. AI is a tool, but to me it feels more like a new way to work.” “AI does efficiency, but when it comes to strategy and using these tools as thought partners, that’s where they really shine.” “I fully believe in human-driven AI. It starts with the prompt, with your strategy and your direction, and at the end of the day the human is still responsible for what goes forward.”

Search inside the app stores is changing — and AI is accelerating that shift. In this episode, we speak with Dave Bell, CEO at Gummicube, about how artificial intelligence is transforming the way users discover apps. Dave explains why search is becoming more conversational and intent-driven, how natural language queries are reshaping rankings, and why the era of optimizing for a single dominant keyword is fading. As users ask longer, more specific questions — both inside the App Store and through tools like ChatGPT — ASO strategies must evolve to reflect how people actually search. If you’re responsible for app visibility, organic growth, or ASO strategy, this episode offers a timely look at where search is heading next. Without any further ado, let’s get started. Today’s topics include: How AI is changing app store search behavior Natural language queries and intent-based ranking Why single-keyword optimization no longer works The growing role of LLMs in app discovery Apple opening the App Store to web indexing What AI-driven search means for future ASO strategy Links and Resources: Dave Bell on LinkedIn Gummicube Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Dave Bell “It’s not about looking for the one keyword to rule them all. It’s not The Lord of the Rings — it’s about understanding all the ways users might search and find your app.” “Users are really being retrained both in the way that they search for information and in terms of what results they expect from a natural search.” “LM models are now including summaries and links to apps that best fit a user’s prompt, giving users a new path into the app stores.” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

What if your mobile app strategy was holding back your entire company's growth? In this episode, Amanda and Adam of Branch welcome back Matt Hudson, founder of BILDIT, to discuss why mobile-first thinking isn't just about technology—it's an organizational imperative. From breaking down the real ROI of app investment and the myth of channel cannibalization, to preparing your ecommerce business for AI discovery optimization, Matt shares hard-won lessons on aligning teams, personalizing customer experiences, and staying ahead of LLM-driven search trends. Whether you're scaling retail, launching a mobile strategy, or wrestling with how to compete in an AI-first world, this conversation cuts through the noise to deliver actionable insights that will reshape how you think about customer engagement across all channels. Links and Resources: Matt Hudson on LinkedIn BILDIT website Branch - Mobile Attribution Platform and App Analytics Solutions For Enterprises Today’s topics include: How to determine if your ecommerce business actually needs a mobile app Why organizational alignment across teams matters more than technology The critical difference between SEO and AI discovery optimization How to immediately implement AI-ready data on your site today Why React Native and cross-functional web-and-mobile teams accelerate app growth How AI personalization works at scale using embeddings and vectors Quotes from Matt Hudson: “The entire org of your company, no matter how big or small, has got to be vested in the growth of the mobile app.” “You know who doesn’t care about cannibalization? The customer. The customer. They want the easiest experience to convert.” “If the mobile app doesn’t improve your ROAS, your return on ad spend, nobody’s going to do anything with it."

How do you know if your app marketing is actually driving growth — or just generating activity? In this episode, we speak with Dane Buchanan, Global Chief Data & Analytics Officer at M+C Saatchi Performance, about one of the most misunderstood topics in app growth: measurement. Dane explains why clicks and impressions don’t tell the full story, why incrementality matters more than correlation, and how brands often underestimate their real ROI by ignoring offline impact. He also shares a case study where better measurement revealed that media ROI was actually three times higher than previously reported — changing the company’s investment strategy entirely. Today’s topics include: Why traditional media metrics fail to show true business impact What incrementality really means in app marketing The gap between online measurement and offline revenue A real-world case study showing 3× higher ROI Designing measurement systems that work in a privacy-first ecosystem Links and Resources: Dane Buchanan on LinkedIn M+C Saatchi Performance Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Dane Buchanan “In one line, incrementality is what wouldn’t have happened without the media.” “The issue with digital attribution and clicks and impressions is that it doesn’t truly show growth.” “If you’re only measuring online sales and ignoring offline revenue, you’re not seeing the full impact of your media — and that can lead to significant underinvestment” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

Scaling user acquisition has become harder to justify and even harder to predict. App teams are under pressure to grow faster while proving, with real data, that every dollar spent delivers meaningful results beyond the install. In this episode, we’re sharing an App Talk interview where David Murphy speaks with Lee Aho, Chief Revenue Officer at Perform[cb]. Lee explains how outcome-based user acquisition models help brands move past surface-level metrics like CPI and focus instead on the downstream events that actually define quality — from registrations and deposits to trades, wagers, and long-term value. Today’s topics include: How outcome-based user acquisition shifts optimization from installs to the actions that truly define user quality The role of CPI and CPE models — and why they aren’t competing approaches when paired with the right down-funnel signals Using cross-program data and pattern recognition to drive more predictable and scalable UA performance Why keyword conquesting remains one of the most effective ways to accelerate organic lift through paid investment How rewarded environments and structured pilot programs can unlock high-intent users and long-term partnerships Links and Resources: Lee Aho on LinkedIn Perform[cb] website Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Quotes from Lee Aho “We’re only getting paid for net new users, so all of our optimization centers around the outcomes that brands tell us are their leading indicators of quality.” “When you’re looking at hundreds of programs, you’re not just seeing what happened — you’re starting to see what’s about to happen.” “Brands want user acquisition that scales in a predictable way, and that’s where performance-based models can really help.” Host Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry since 2012

Welcome to another episode of How I Grew This podcast from our partner Branch – mobile attribution platform and app analytics solutions for enterprises. It covers building a sustainable agency through values-driven leadership and specialist focus. In this episode, hosts Amanda and Adam speak with Mick Rigby, founder and CEO of Yodel Mobile, about his 20-year journey building a specialist mobile app marketing agency. From launching just before the iPhone's debut to being recently acquired by NP Digital, Mick shares insights on sustainable growth, maintaining company values, and adapting to industry changes. Links and Resources: Mick Rigby on LinkedIn Yodel Mobile  website Business Of Apps - connecting the app industry Today’s topics include: Saying “no” is a strategic advantage in app growth because focus and discipline create stronger long-term outcomes than chasing every opportunity. Yodel Mobile succeeded by committing early to being a specialist app marketing agency rather than a generalist digital services provider. Sustainable growth comes from cash-flow discipline, profitability, and resisting the pressure to scale faster than the business can support. Retaining talent and building a strong internal culture is a more durable competitive advantage than rapid hiring or aggressive expansion. AI will improve efficiency and data analysis in app marketing, but human skills like judgment, empathy, and strategy will matter even more. Quotes from Mick Rigby: “I think there’s something really powerful in the ability to say no” “AI, the robots… there is so much that they’re good at, but they are and they will continue to lack the human element.” ““I’m a great believer in you either have to be a specialist or a generalist."