Lindsay Clancy & The Holdout Juror: What Massachusetts Law Actually Says & Where We Go From Here

Eleven jurors voted to acquit Lindsay Clancy. One didn't. Six days later his dismissed charge, his divorce, and his eviction were on national television. He has never spoken to a reporter. He has never been named. He showed up for jury duty and then did the one thing we tell every juror to do, which is refuse to move when you don't believe it. This week the entire country argued about whether he should have been allowed in the building. Almost nobody arguing bothered to read the statute that answers it. Motions are heard September 29th.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime

This episode covers rape, drug-facilitated sexual assault, and the death of a woman. Nothing in it is graphic for the sake of being graphic. Resources are below.Late on June 25, 2026, in the small Upper Austrian town of Marchtrenk, a teenage girl finds her mother unresponsive and bleeding. Paramedics pronounce her dead at 12:44 a.m. Her husband tells police it was rough, consensual sex that went wrong. That story lasts until the autopsy.Austrian prosecutors have said on the record that she was extremely intoxicated and unable to defend herself; that her husband is under investigation for sexual abuse of a defenseless person resulting in death; that a neighbor has confessed to abusing her twice, including the night she died; and that a third man was expected to take part and did not show. Reports of a wider paid network, secret drugging, and specific chat messages.From there the episode goes to Gisèle Pelicot: the 2024 Mazan trial, the fifty-one convictions, France’s 2025 consent-based rape law, her 2026 memoir A Hymn to Life: Shame Has to Change Sides, and her daughter Caroline Darian’s still-open fight to be believed without a hard drive full of proof.Then Stockport, England, where a husband has pleaded guilty to five rapes of his unconscious wife while twelve co-defendants stand trial beside him. Then the CNN investigation into the so-called rape academy: sleep-content platforms, Telegram groups, a Polish arrest that started with an undercover reporter, Project Medusa, and the viral 62-million figure that was wrong.The Reality Check covers how common incapacitated rape is, leftover marital-rape loopholes, what actually moves cases, and the men who were invited, declined, and told no one.US: RAINN National Sexual Assault Hotline — 1-800-656-4673 / rainn.orgUS: National Domestic Violence Hotline — 1-800-799-7233 / thehotline.orgInternational resources are linked below.If you have unexplained blackouts or lost time, you can ask a doctor about testing for chemical submission. You do not have to be sure first.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime

The jury foreperson has a name now. Roni Carlson. She and two other women from that panel sat down with NBC10 this week and told everybody what actually went on in there for seven days, and one detail has been rattling around my skull since.The holdout admitted he had reasonable doubt.Out loud. To the room. She was so relieved she started filling out the verdict forms, all three of them, signed her name on each one. And then he said, "But I'm still not going to say that she's not guilty by reason of insanity."He wasn't confused. He got there. He walked all the way to the answer and then just declined to be moved by it, and that's the thing I can't put down, because it's the whole summer in one sentence.The rest of what those women described isn't much prettier. They said he was arrogant. Said he wouldn't engage. Said he brushed off the nurses on the panel when they walked him through the medications and the toxicology, which, if you're a woman who has ever been in a meeting, you already knew was coming.Meanwhile Kevin Reddington had a week.He went on Good Morning America and asked the President to pardon a woman facing state charges, which the President cannot do and which Reddington later admitted he knows perfectly well. I break down what that stunt was actually for and who it was actually aimed at, because it wasn't Trump.He floated a plea. He said he'd like to chat with the jurors, which is a normal thing for a lawyer to say and a slightly less normal thing to say five days after accusing one of them of perjury in open court.And before the courthouse doors shut, he announced his next client. She's charged with murdering her grandmother in North Adams and she's been sitting in a cell for nearly four years waiting for a trial. Every allegation in that case is unproven and she's pleaded not guilty, and I say so about eight times, because half the outlets covering it have already decided what it rhymes with.Also in here: the math Tim Cruz is staring at before the September 29 hearing, why a plea is probably the most humane outcome available and will satisfy nobody, and how a Brockton defense attorney became a folk hero to women who couldn't have picked him out of a lineup in July.Then the repeal-the-19th crowd, who did not go home after the mistrial and who are not who you think they are.And at the end, the boys. I went and read the actual research on raising sons who don't turn into manosphere sycophants. IF YOU NEED SUPPORTNational Maternal Mental Health Hotline: call or text 1-833-TLC-MAMA (1-833-852-6262). Free, confidential, 24/7.Postpartum Support International: 1-800-944-4773, or text "Help" to 800-944-4773. Warmline, not a crisis line. A volunteer calls you back.In crisis: dial or text 988, or text HOME to 741741.Postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency. Go to an emergency room.Support the show at patreon.com/wesawthedevil.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime

***For speed and due to this episode being late, it is unedited. The jury's last note got quoted everywhere Friday,"It is with a heavy heart that we report we are unable to come to a unanimous decision, and we will not be able to." That last part is what matters. They weren't saying they were stuck. They were saying don't bother sending us back in, there's no version of Monday where this goes differently. So after seven days and roughly forty hours, Judge Sullivan called it. And the reason he gave was that the jury never asked to keep going.Reddington filed an emergency motion before the jury was even in the room Friday morning, then got up and accused the holdout juror of lying under oath the day before. That part got wall-to-wall coverage. What didn't: Sullivan read the exact same note and said no, that's not what this says. Both things happened. Only one made the news. Then there's the hour. Reddington got sixty minutes to run to the Supreme Judicial Court, and Justice Wendlandt actually froze the mistrial for a couple of hours with those twelve people still sitting undischarged in the building. Then she denied it. I get into why he ran, and why losing might still matter, because there's a version of this where a double jeopardy motion means Clancy can never be tried for this again at all. Three people talked afterward. Cruz says there's no retrial decision yet, and then said the one thing all day that actually landed. Reddington told him not to retry it and in the same breath bragged he'd be ready by next week, which isn't a contradiction, it's a price. And Patrick Clancy put out two words. Then the President weighed in from the Oval Office, on a case that still has charges pending and a jury pool that hasn't gotten their summonses yet. That's the last segment and it's the one I'd expect to catch heat for.Look, nobody was convicted and nobody was acquitted. No jury said she was criminally responsible and no jury said she wasn't. If somebody's in your feed tonight claiming this proved them right, they're selling you something. Bigger episode next week once we know what Cruz is doing.IF YOU NEED SUPPORT:National Maternal Mental Health Hotline: call or text 1-833-TLC-MAMA (1-833-852-6262). Free, confidential, 24/7. Postpartum Support International: 1-800-944-4773, or text "Help" to 800-944-4773. This is a warmline, not a crisis line. A volunteer returns your message.In crisis: dial or text 988, or text HOME to 741741.Postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency. Go to an emergency room.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime

A judge in Plymouth, Massachusetts spent Thursday afternoon reading twelve adults the definition of a word.Not the evidence. Not the eighty-odd witnesses. A definition. Reasonable doubt. Because a note came out of that jury room saying one person in there will not take it.Disagreeing with eleven people is allowed. That's the job. Refusing the standard itself is something else, and it's about to blow up five weeks of trial. Six days of deliberation. Thirty-six and a half hours. Split eleven to one. Judge Sullivan has already spent the dynamite charge, and under Massachusetts law he can't use it again without the jury's permission. Kevin Reddington stood up in open court and asked him to throw the holdout off the panel. Sullivan said no. They're back Friday morning. This episode: what actually happened in that courtroom Thursday, why courts almost never remove a holdout juror and why you should be glad they don't, and what a mistrial would actually mean for this case.Plus the number nobody in the discourse wants to look at. For three weeks the argument was that a jury of nine women and three men would split along sex. That prediction needed nine to three. It got eleven to one, and there is no way to reach eleven from a pool of nine women without bringing men along. And there is one thing I'm not telling you in this episode, about the identity of the holdout, and the reason why is the most important part of the whole hour.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders has a formal diagnosis for caffeine withdrawal.It does not have one for postpartum psychosis.That's where this episode starts, and it turns out to explain almost everything about the six weeks that followed. As I record this, the jury in Plymouth has told the judge for the second time in two days that it cannot agree on whether Lindsay Clancy was criminally responsible. Five weeks of trial. More than eighty witnesses. The judge has now read them the Tuey-Rodriguez charge, the last instruction he has, and under Massachusetts law he can't read it again without their consent. Twelve people who saw every exhibit can't get there. The internet got there in nine minutes. This episode is not about whether she's guilty. It's about the machine that spent August turning three dead children into content, and it hits everybody.The women who made this their entire personality: the pink shirts, the "Same, Lindsay" trend, a hundred and sixty-four thousand TikToks, twenty-five Etsy designs, a crowd cheering a defense attorney like he'd walked out of Selma, and a fifty-six-year-old woman arrested in a courthouse parking lot. And the men who decided the correct response to a psychiatric emergency was a constitutional amendment. A retired UFC champion who was calling to repeal the 19th two years before he'd ever heard her name. A podcaster on episode 1,825. A commentator who looked at a stranger holding her own baby and asked where CPS was. Also in here: Why parasocial defendant worship is a format and not a female pathology, and what ten thousand people mailing $290,000 to Luigi Mangione proves about that. The Andrea Yates conviction that got overturned because an expert witness testified about a Law & Order episode that had never been filmed. All 269 episodes were searched. It did not exist. Twenty-five years later, a major podcaster covering this case said out loud that he didn't need his story verified.The nine murder-suicides a week that nobody is holding a rally about, and why there is no federal database counting them. Three fathers who raised the exact defense Clancy is raising. Nobody proposed taking anyone's vote away. And the number that ends the argument: the UK has around 21 psychiatric units where a woman in this emergency is admitted with her baby. France has 15. The United States has four million births a year and zero. Six weeks of the loudest people in America screaming about dead children, and not one of them proposed a bed or a solution. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime

Three days. Seventeen hours. Twelve jurors, five possible verdicts, and a door nobody can see behind.Day three of deliberations in the Lindsay Clancy trial ended Monday afternoon with no verdict and instructions to come back Tuesday. Robin breaks down where the case actually stands...the criminal responsibility standard, what "not guilty" would really mean here, and why the jury's request for the pill bottles and the knife tells you they're doing the work.Then the sidewalk: the pink shirts, the twenty-five-plus Etsy designs, the defense attorney fan merchandise, the free coffee at a verdict watch, and the fact that somebody bought the Duxbury house.Plus a viral post arguing that a not-guilty verdict from a nine-woman jury is grounds for repealing the Nineteenth Amendment, and the math problem that argument doesn't survive.And in Philadelphia in the House of Horrors case...fifty hard drives, five urns, four missing women, no bodies, and what investigators say they found on one of those drives this week, which is something Western media very much claims doesn't exist as a theory. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime

On Friday morning, twelve people in Plymouth, Massachusetts asked to see two things: a bag of prescription pill bottles and the knife Lindsay Clancy used on herself. That request is the entire factual content of the biggest news day in this trial since closing arguments, and within hours it had been publicly interpreted as a conviction, an acquittal, a hung jury, and a verdict coming Monday before lunch.This episode walks Friday minute by minute, then does the thing this show exists to do: separates what happened from what people needed it to mean.Also covered: the prosecution's rebuttal psychiatrist, Dr. Avram Mack, resigned from Nemours Children's Health on the same day he finished testifying, and Nemours will not say why. What that fact does and does not establish. The full evidentiary record the jury is working through, including why the central dispute is not whether Clancy was mentally ill. The five verdict options and what an insanity finding actually means in Massachusetts, which is not what the internet says it means. The sidewalk outside the courthouse, where pink t-shirts and handwritten signs reading "1st Degree MURDER" sat on benches thirty feet apart.And a Reality Check on why women are responding to this case the way they are, built on a fact most of the coverage has missed entirely: postpartum psychosis, the condition at the center of this five week trial, is not in the DSM.Recorded Sunday afternoon. The jury returns Monday at 9 a.m. Eastern. Nothing in this episode assumes a verdict.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime

Day 21. The last day of evidence in Commonwealth v. Lindsay Clancy.Judge William Sullivan opened with a line from Henry V. Four hours later, defense attorney Kevin Reddington was reading the prosecution's own opening statement out loud to the prosecution's own final witness and asking him if he agreed with it. Dr. Gregory Saathoff, forensic psychiatrist at the University of Virginia and senior psychiatrist for the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit, said the statement minimizes what Lindsay Clancy was going through.That is the state's closer telling a jury the state's theory is too small.He also gave prosecutors the cleanest planning testimony of the trial. Both things happened the same day, from the same witness, under oath.This episode walks Day 21 in chronological order, start to finish.This episode contains discussion of child death, suicide, and psychiatric crisis.If you are struggling: call or text 988 for the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. For postpartum mood disorders, the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline is free, confidential and available 24/7 at 1-833-TLC-MAMA.We Saw the Devil publishes three times a week.Website and full archive: wesawthedevil.com Patreon: We Saw the Devil Twitter: @wesawthedevil Instagram: @wesawthedevilpodcast TikTok: @wesawthedevilpolitics Facebook: wesawthedevil Robin on Instagram: @robin_wstdBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime

***Due to time constants, this episode is unedited. Day 20 was the last full day of evidence in the Lindsay Clancy murder trial, and it was the strangest day of the whole five weeks.The morning belonged to Dr. Kirk Heilbrun, the forensic psychologist the Commonwealth hired to explain postpartum psychosis to a jury. On cross examination, Kevin Reddington established that Heilbrun last treated a patient with postpartum psychosis in 1982, has never published a word on it, wrote his only article on psychosis in 1977, and has been paid roughly $54,000 at $300 an hour.That same witness told jurors Lindsay Clancy committed what he called altruistic filicide. That she killed her three children out of love, so they would not be left behind or suffer without her after she took her own life. The prosecution has argued for five weeks that this was planned and methodical. Their own expert just told the jury it was despair.The afternoon belonged to Dr. Gregory Saathoff, forensic psychiatrist at the University of Virginia and a senior psychiatrist for the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. He gave that jury something no witness had given them in five weeks: a moment by moment account of how Cora, Dawson and Callan died, sourced entirely to Lindsay Clancy's own words. The refrigerator. The chicken nuggets. The 5:34 phone call. The voice. The order. And then he spent the rest of the day taking it apart.We go through the whole day in order, gavel to gavel, because the order is the argument.In this episode:The Monday mistrial motion, and why "mortal sin" has now been put in front of this jury twice.Heilbrun's direct: bipolar two, peritraumatic dissociation, and the eighteen minute problem. "Why the basement. Who among the children goes first. What do you say to the kids to keep them from panicking."The cross: 1982, the $54,000, the "beast" question, the day program in Rhode Island that would not take her, and Reddington standing behind Lindsay Clancy's wheelchair.Saathoff's five attacks on the voice, including the line that is going to end up in closing arguments: "Committing the act is not curative of the voice. I've not ever seen that."Why the chicken nuggets are contested evidence and not a poignant detail.The circus outside the courthouse, the livestream, and the TikToker the defense actually tried to put on the stand.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/we-saw-the-devil-a-true-crime-podcast--4433638/support.Website: http://www.wesawthedevil.comPatreon: http://www.patreon.com/wesawthedevilRobin's Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/robin_wstdTwitter: http://www.twitter.com/WeSawtheDevilInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/wesawthedevilpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@wesawthedeviltruecrime