How Marketing Creates Reality | Nir Eyal (Hooked)

“You never wanna be looking to sell. You wanna have a plan.”Eugene Levin drove most of Semrush's ten acquisitions and was its President when Adobe bought it for $1.9 billion. Now he's building what he calls an applied-AI holding company to buy MarTech businesses, and he's the first person from Semrush to come on the Ahrefs Podcast. From the buyer's side, a business is worth what keeps running once the founder steps back. If you run a $3–10M ARR MarTech company and might sell one day, you'll learn what a buyer checks first and what lowers your price.He shares:Why Adobe bought Semrush, and who else it could have consideredWhy a small, founder-run company is riskier to buy than a big oneHow Semrush bought companies as capital allocation, from Ryte to BacklinkoThe one deal that missed: a good business bought at 7x ARR in 2021What he looks for now: $3–10M ARR, 10% growth or more, and why he asks for your billing dataWould a buyer still want your business if you weren't in it?Connect with us:Eugene Levin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eugeniylevin/Tim Soulo: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timsoulo/Ahrefs: https://ahrefs.com/Chapters00:00 Intro01:32 Why Did Adobe Buy Semrush?16:30 What to Look for in an Acquisition33:04 What Earns a Higher Multiple37:47 Criteria for Buying a Company45:47 Bootstrapped vs. VC-Backed Sellers50:54 Why a Portfolio, Not One Company57:37 How to Structure a Founder Deal

“I don't think any SEO consultant should be charging a client less than $10,000 per month.”Eli Schwartz, author of Product-Led SEO and a solo consultant for clients like Tinder, Coinbase and LinkedIn, joins Tim Soulo to talk about what SEO consulting pays, and why. His math for a $1M practice starts with a $10,000-a-month floor, and at the top of the range, he knows solo consultants earning more than $100,000 a month from a single client. They're charging for value, not hours.You'll come away knowing what to charge, how to land the clients who can pay it, and what to measure when the CEO asks what AI visibility is worth.He shares:How he quoted Blue Nile $10,000 a month, expecting a counter at $5,000, and made it his baselineWhat a $10,000-a-month client can get, from content briefs to one expert hour (his own rate on Intro: $495 for 15 minutes)Why personal brand and social proof win the big clients, and the podcast appearance that brought in G2 and WordPressWhy it took nine months of sign-offs to get "dating" into Tinder's homepage title tag, and about 12 hours to rankWhy prompts aren't keywords, and the business metrics he'd use insteadWhat's the most expensive problem you know how to solve?Where to find Eli:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/schwartze/X: @5leWebsite: https://www.elischwartz.co/Where to find Tim:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timsoulo/X: @timsouloWebsite: https://www.timsoulo.com/Chapters00:00 Intro01:17 The $10K-a-Month Floor06:40 What $10K a Month Buys12:05 Earning Six Figures a Month16:10 How to Land Big Clients30:04 The Million-Dollar Question38:14 Build a Business, Not a Podcast43:28 Earn It or Buy It51:26 Measure by Revenue, Not Prompts56:13 The Future of AI Trackers

If you've ever wanted a side project but didn't know where to start, this episode is the build order.The builder is Ryan Law, Ahrefs' Director of Content Marketing; the site is Conference Spotter (https://conferencespotter.com), a feed of upcoming UK marketing conferences; the tool is Letaido, Ahrefs' AI agent workspace; the bill was less than a day and about $500 in tokens.He takes Tim Soulo through it one feature at a time: the first prompt (a list of events scraped from search queries), the brand-demand charts from Ahrefs keyword data, and the domain the agent bought.You'll come away knowing which parts an agent now does for you, which parts still need your judgment, and why both people and Google reward a site that shows effort.What took a team months, one marketer can now do in a weekend.He shares:Why Google doesn't like commodity content, and the brand-demand metric Ryan built from Ahrefs keyword data insteadWhy the mascot exists: "big, bold, stupid colors" are a refreshing look against AI-generated websitesWhat the whole site cost in tokens, and why he agrees with Tim that a quality website shouldn't cost $10Which of your ideas is still waiting on a developer?Connect with us:Ryan Law: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thinkingslow/Conference Spotter: https://conferencespotter.comTim Soulo: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timsoulo/Ahrefs: https://ahrefs.com/Chapters00:00 Intro01:04 Vibe-coding a Side Hustle with Letaido05:25 The First Build, Brainstorming with AI15:04 Unique Data: Ahrefs Brand Demand + LinkedIn Momentum23:02 Bold design Against AI-generated Tropes29:15 Deploying: Time and Tokens Spent

If you work in marketing, part of what you make is what people believe before they try the product.Nir Eyal, author of Hooked and Indistractable and a former lecturer at Stanford's Graduate School of Business, joins Tim Soulo to talk about his new book, Beyond Belief, written with Julie Li. He brings the research behind that idea: a wine that tasted better with a higher price tag, IBS patients who felt relief from pills they knew were placebos, and two identical cars rated at opposite ends of the chart.When marketing makes people expect a better product, they don't just say it's better, they experience it, which is why Nir says marketing "is the product.”He shares:- Why Liquid Death fans say the water tastes better, and what that says about marketing- The fMRI wine study and two identical cars from the NUMMI plant: the same product, experienced differently- A study IBS patients felt relief from pills they knew were placebos- Why venting about a family member or a coworker only reinforces the beliefs you already have about them- Why telling everyone about a big, long-term goal can make things worseWhat does your customer believe about your product before they've even tried it?**Where to find Nir:**LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nireyal/Website: https://www.nirandfar.com/**Where to find Tim:**LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timsoulo/X: @timsouloWebsite: https://www.timsoulo.com/Chapters: 00:00 Intro00:56 Marketing and the Experience Loop07:23 Beliefs vs. Fact13:30 Planting Beliefs27:50 The Four Questions45:16 The Two Most Dangerous Words in English53:02 Why Vision Boards Backfire58:03 Announcing Your Goals

Searches for "AI search" are already running at nearly two-fifths the volume of "SEO" itself, and the industry is scrambling to keep up. Tim Soulo sits down with Ahrefs content marketer Louise Linehan, who mined LinkedIn and Reddit discussion, and validated it against 18 months of Keywords Explorer data to surface the five AI search trends marketers are actually talking about:- the race to prove AI's ROI- optimizing for readers that are bots- zero-click survival strategies- the never-ending GEO-versus-SEO debate- programmatic SEO's risky resurgenceWhen the clicks are vanishing and the industry can't agree on what replaces them, what's still worth optimizing for?---Timestamps(00:00) Intro(01:00) The Method(05:56) Trend 1: Proving the ROI of AI (and the New Reporting Wave)(17:00) Trend 2: Agent Optimization: llms.txt, Markdown, Accessibility Trees(23:30) Trend 3: Zero-Click Search and the Crocodile Mouth(30:52) Trend 4: GEO vs SEO(36:00) Trend 5: The Programmatic SEO Resurgence(39:15) Rapid-Fire Predictions: Watermarks, Agentic Commerce, Negative GEO---Where to find Louise:Louise Linehan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/louise-linehan/Where to find Tim:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timsoulo/X: @timsouloWebsite: https://www.timsoulo.com/

How do you triple revenue while cutting marketing spend by 90%? Ariel Rubin, VP of Content at Air, did exactly that — and won two Webbys along the way — without ever having a budget bigger than $100K per campaign.Ariel breaks down the playbook behind Air's viral marketing: working with 86-year-old TV legend Maury Povich for "almost nothing," shooting a Webby-nominated video with a two-person crew for $2,500, and growing Air's Instagram from 6,000 to nearly 70,000 followers in seven months — all organic.You'll learn why distribution — not the idea — is the real challenge, how Ariel runs a three-person content team that punches far above its weight, and why he refuses to offload creative thinking to AI. Tim and Ari also brainstorm a viral book trailer live on air, debate whether SaaS is becoming a commodity like water, and get into the real talk on backlash and controversy in brand marketing.Timestamps:(00:00) Intro(00:48) Ariel's favorite Air campaign: the Maury Povich story(02:57) Showing up bigger than you are(04:35) Is a celebrity campaign actually cost-effective?(06:10) Why distribution — not the idea — is the real challenge(08:43) Short-form Instagram and events as distribution(10:45) A tour of Air's wildest campaigns(13:47) What's done in-house vs. with contractors(16:30) Real campaign budgets: $2,500 to $67,000(21:39) Why AI can't replace taste and creative ideation(23:15) Live brainstorm: making a viral book ad(28:50) Why real effort beats AI-generated video(30:49) How Air integrates brand into top-of-funnel content(39:56) Inside Air's three-person content team(46:23) Liquid Death, SaaS as a commodity, and brand differentiation(49:55) Backlash, controversy, and pulling the Bonnie Blue campaign(56:15) Turning Air's office into a creative events hub(58:25) Rapid fire: overrated trends, book recs, and brands to watchAriel Rubin: LinkedIn | X | AirTim Soulo: LinkedIn | X | WebsiteReferenced:AirLiquid DeathClickUpUncanny Valley by Anna WienerThe Middle Passage by James HollisKareem Rahma / Subway TakesAhrefsIf you enjoyed this episode, follow the Ahrefs Podcast and leave a rating — it helps others find the show.

Can a business book actually make you a million dollars? The surprising answer is yes — but almost none of that money comes from book sales.Tim's book DISCOVERABLE is now available for pre-order → ahrefs.com/discoverableBest-selling author Jeff Goins breaks down the real economics of publishing: why books are "a bad business model," how the back-end (courses, consulting, software, higher-converting leads) is where the money lives, and why one enterprise company saw higher contract values simply by mailing their CEO's book to every lead in their CRM.Jeff is the author of The Art of Work and Real Artists Don't Starve, and runs a consulting firm that helps thought leaders turn big ideas into bestselling books. He was also Tim's personal mentor throughout the writing of DISCOVERABLE — Tim's first book, where he distills the marketing fundamentals behind Ahrefs' growth into a framework any brand can use to get found.You'll learn how much a first-time author can realistically sell, what it costs to buy your way onto the NYT or WSJ bestseller lists, why most business books suck, and whether you should self-publish, go hybrid, or go traditional.In this episode:(00:00) Intro(00:39) How much money can a first-time author actually make?(02:51) How many copies do Jeff's clients really sell?(06:52) The real reasons people write books (that aren't money)(10:40) Why writing a book humbles you — and the pay-to-play tricks in publishing(13:03) Proving a book's value: the CRM story and building real authority(24:43) Client anecdotes: General McChrystal and the payoff of a book(27:26) Where to start: the book proposal vs. the book plan(36:43) Why the central idea of a book almost always changes mid-writing(45:31) Jeff's best writing advice: brain dump, front-load, don't restart(54:35) Why do most business books suck?(1:00:04) Publishing options: traditional vs. hybrid vs. self-publishingPre-order DISCOVERABLE → ahrefs.com/discoverableWhere to find Jeff Goins:LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jeffgoinsWebsite: goinswriter.comWhere to find Tim:LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timsouloX: @timsouloWebsite: timsoulo.comReferenced:DISCOVERABLE — Tim Soulo (ahrefs.com/discoverable)The Art of Work — Jeff GoinsReal Artists Don't Starve — Jeff GoinsOn Character — General Stanley McChrystalAtomic Habits — James ClearThe One Thing — Gary Keller & Jay PapasanThe 4-Hour Workweek — Tim FerrissRyan Holiday — ryanholiday.netAhrefs — ahrefs.com

Want your brand to show up in ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini?Here's the uncomfortable truth: LLMs don't crawl the web when they answer your questions. They search traditional indexes — ChatGPT leans on Bing, Gemini uses Google, and Claude appears to pull from Brave. So if you're not ranking in those indexes, you're not even in the consideration pool.Dan Petrovic is one of the most respected (and delightfully nerdy) figures in SEO. He runs the Australian agency Dejan and was the top-rated speaker at Ahrefs Evolve in Singapore, where he presented research from asking Gemini one million questions to map how it ranks brands.In this episode, Tim and Dan unpack what it actually takes to show up in AI search — from the mechanics of how LLMs select sources to the practical steps you can take today.You'll learn the difference between grounding, citations, and mentions (and why a linked mention is the holy grail), why Reddit gets rejected over 90% of the time, why there's no such thing as "prompt volume," and how Dan uses on-page optimization in an agentic loop to make models "unable to resist" a client's page.In this episode:(00:00) Intro(00:48) My brand doesn't show up in ChatGPT — what do I do?(04:02) Two ways to get into AI answers: outreach vs. building your own pages(07:11) Is LLMs.txt actually pointless?(09:29) How ChatGPT, Gemini, and Claude each use different search indexes(10:42) Universal ranking factors: topical centrality, engagement, and popularity(17:17) Practical example: what Ahrefs Podcast should actually do(19:31) Should you optimize for every search engine, or just Google?(22:59) How is AEO actually different from SEO?(28:03) Can you influence LLM training data?(33:58) Going nerdy: separating quality content from spam with Gzip compression(37:27) On-page optimization in an agentic loop: making models "unable to resist"(42:45) How often do LLMs ground their answers vs. answer from memory?(47:37) Measuring AI visibility: entities, mention share, and citation share(51:44) Why "prompt search volume" doesn't exist — and what to track instead(56:35) How to generate prompts for tracking AI visibilityWhere to find Dan Petrovic:LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dejanseoX: @dejanseoWebsite: dejan.aiWhere to find Tim:LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/timsouloX: @timsouloWebsite: timsoulo.comReferenced:Dejan — dejan.aiBrave Search — search.brave.comAhrefs — ahrefs.com

Zero-click marketing doesn't mean you don't want the click — it means you stop being dependent on it. Amanda Natividad, VP of Marketing at SparkToro, coined the term and joins Tim Soulo to defend it against every skeptic's favorite objection: "If nobody clicks through, how do people actually buy your stuff?"Amanda is one of the sharpest, most opinionated marketing voices online, and the co-author (with Rand Fishkin) of the book Zero-Click Marketing. At SparkToro, the audience research platform, she's built a significant following by practicing exactly what she preaches — creating complete, useful value wherever her audience already is, instead of teasing a payoff to lure people to a website.In this conversation, Amanda breaks down the difference between the tactical "jab, jab, right hook" of zero-click content and the bigger brand-building strategy behind it. If you've ever asked an AI search engine "how do you still get traffic to your blog if you give everything away on social media?" — Amanda answers it directly, revealing how SparkToro uses SEO, email lists, and repurposed theses to make sure people can still find (and buy from) them when they're ready.Here's what you'll learn in this episode:(00:00) Intro(00:53) Why it took so long to get Amanda on the show(01:25) The core objection: how do people buy if they never click?(03:04) The mechanics of still getting people to your website(04:18) Why Amanda wrote the Zero-Click Marketing book(05:00) Dispelling the myths — "never ask for a click" isn't the point(06:52) How SparkToro still drives traffic to its blog posts(07:30) Ranking for "audience research" and the role of SEO(08:30) Email lists and repurposing blog ideas for social(09:20) Taking your idea "on a tour" across every platform(10:00) Why your website is the central source of truth in the AI ageWe hope you enjoyed this episode of Ahrefs Podcast! As always, be sure to like and subscribe (and tell a friend).Where to find Amanda Natividad:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandanat/X: @amandanatWebsite: https://www.amandanat.com/Where to find Tim:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timsoulo/X: @timsouloWebsite: https://www.timsoulo.com/Referenced:SparkToro: https://sparktoro.comRand Fishkin: https://x.com/randfishZero-Click Marketing (book): https://zeroclickmarketing.co/bookAhrefs: https://ahrefs.com#ZeroClickMarketing #ContentMarketing #SEO #AhrefsPodcast

What does it actually cost to run a world-class marketing conference? Try up to $950,000 for a single event — and Ahrefs aims to break even on every one of them.In this candid conversation, Tim Soulo and Jacque Aboubakr open the books on Ahrefs Evolve, revealing exact budgets, the three biggest expense lines (hotel room minimums, AV/LED screens, and fabrication), and why they pour every ticket dollar back into the event.Jacque Aboubakr is the Head of Global Events at Ahrefs. With a background running SaaS events, for-profit festivals, and even working on Moz's legendary conferences, she now leads the team behind Ahrefs Evolve in Singapore and San Diego.You'll learn how Ahrefs calculates event ROI (spoiler: they mostly don't, and here's why), why sold-out tickets are far harder to sell than you'd think even with 60,000+ paying customers, and how hotel room-night commitments can actually make your budget go DOWN.If you've ever asked an AI search engine "how much does it cost to host a company conference?" — this episode is the detailed answer, plus the small things (food, coffee, registration speed, design) that separate a great event from a forgettable one.Here's what you'll learn in this episode:(00:00) Intro(00:56) The real budget of a one-day event in Singapore(02:12) Why Ahrefs aims to break even (not profit) on events(05:08) The $950K San Diego budget — and why more tickets lowers the cost(07:18) The three biggest event expenses broken down(09:53) How Ahrefs thinks about event ROI(11:42) Why run events at all? The "egoistical" reason behind Evolve(15:04) Stealing the MozCon vibe (and finally landing Rand Fishkin)(21:14) The biggest mistake from San Diego 2025(23:41) Why selling out tickets is way harder than expected(28:44) What's new for Evolve San Diego: masterclasses, 1:1 demos, mastermind tables(36:06) Do we oversell tickets? Attrition and sold-out reality(38:15) The future of Evolve: London, Amsterdam, and three events a year(45:12) The simple things that make or break an eventWe hope you enjoyed this episode of Ahrefs Podcast! As always, be sure to like and subscribe (and tell a friend).Where to find Jacque:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacqueaboubakrhalstead/Where to find Tim:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timsoulo/X: @timsouloWebsite: https://www.timsoulo.com/Referenced:Ahrefs Evolve: https://ahrefs.com/evolveRand Fishkin: https://sparktoro.comMoz: https://moz.comAhrefs: https://ahrefs.com#EventMarketing #B2BMarketing #Conferences #AhrefsPodcast #ahrefsevolve