412: From Bots to Real ROI: The KOL Playbook for Web3 Projects with Guest Speaker Evgeny Gourbanov from Disence

 EPISODE DESCRIPTION In this episode, I sit down with Evgeny from Disence, one of the leading KOL and Web3 marketing firms in the space. Evgeny has worked with over 500 campaigns and 1,200+ KOLs, and he pulls back the curtain on what projects are getting badly wrong when it comes to influencer marketing. We get into why impressions are a vanity metric, why macro KOLs are largely a waste of budget, how to actually vet a KOL in today's market, and why the best micro KOLs are paradoxically the hardest ones to reach. Evgeny also shares how his team helped one client close nearly $800,000 in B2B sales, and why building credibility before launching any campaign is non-negotiable. If you run a Web3 project or are thinking about KOL marketing, this one will save you a lot of money. DISCLAIMERNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - https://www.web3pod.xyz/ CONNECT Disence Website: https://disence.com/Disence Twitter/X: https://x.com/DisenceOfficialEvgeny on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evgenii-gorbunov/Web3 with Sam Kamani: https://www.web3pod.xyz/ KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS • [00:00] Sam introduces Evgeny from Disence and the focus on KOL marketing and Web3 branding• [01:36] Evgeny shares his background , from receiving ETH at $400 in 2017 to writing a published academic thesis on crypto perception• [04:30] How a spreadsheet of 500 KOL performance metrics led to the founding of Disence• [07:35] Overview of Disence and C-Leads: from B2C KOL campaigns to closing $800K in B2B sales in three months• [10:26] The story of a KOL who publicly trashed a client's project , and what it reveals about relationships over incentives• [13:13] Why commission-only KOL deals don't work and how referral mechanics should be used as leverage, not payment• [14:45] The full campaign process: auditing a project's foundation, building credibility, selecting KOLs, writing briefs, and tracking results• [18:38] Why impressions are the most misleading metric in crypto and why 95% of channels have botted engagement• [20:25] Clipping and podcast distribution explained , why it's a conversion amplifier, not a user acquisition tool• [22:02] How to vet a real audience from a botted one and why recent results (last two months) are the only data that matters• [25:20] Why the crypto narrative shifts every six to eight months and what that means for KOL longevity• [27:31] What campaigns are dominating right now , the battle for trading volume across CEXs and perp DEXes• [31:49] Why AI has removed the technical moat and made marketing the real differentiator for Web3 projects• [33:12] Contrarian take: why micro KOLs outperform macro ones but are paradoxically harder to reach and convert• [40:51] Evgeny's ask , hiring across marketing, sales, and content, and a call for micro KOLs to reach out

 EPISODE DESCRIPTION I sat down with Reid, co-founder of Ground, to explore what it actually takes to bring on-chain finance to institutions. Ground is building a non-custodial API platform, think Stripe, but for DeFi, so that banks, neobanks, and financial companies can access yield, lending, liquid staking, and real-world assets without rebuilding their entire stack. Reid shares his journey from Square to Stripe to Chime to founding Superstate and ultimately Ground. We dig into why large institutions move slowly, why the "just build it with AI" objection misses the point, and what the future looks like when blockchains are quietly powering the back end of your Robin Hood or JPMorgan account. DISCLAIMERNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - https://www.web3pod.xyz/ CONNECT Ground Website: https://www.groundtech.co/Ground LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/ground-global/Ground Twitter/X: https://x.com/ground_onchainReid Twitter/X: https://x.com/rmcumingWeb3 with Sam Kamani: https://www.web3pod.xyz/ KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS • [00:00] Sam introduces Reid and Ground, a platform helping institutions access on-chain finance• [01:20] Reid's nonlinear path from consulting to Silicon Valley to fintech at Square, Stripe, and Chime• [02:00] How Reid joined Compound Labs, built Compound Treasury, then co-founded Superstate before incubating Ground• [03:04] The core problem Ground solves: abstracting blockchain complexity into a Stripe-like API experience• [04:26] What on-chain finance functions look like: stablecoins, lending protocols, LP pools, liquid staking, and RWAs• [05:34] Why institutions are eager but slow, regulatory uncertainty, internal change management, and calcified tech stacks• [08:08] How Reid navigates complex enterprise sales cycles versus faster-moving startup clients• [10:40] Building during a market downturn: why Reid sees it as the best time to build with high signal• [14:15] Ground as a non-custodial API: clients retain full control while Ground handles orchestration and security• [17:26] Addressing the "we'll just build it ourselves with AI" objection, and why real clients never actually say this• [21:30] Current institutional client conversations: time savings, security, compliance, and avoiding cannibalization of existing business• [23:31] The Innovator's Dilemma in crypto: why incumbents like Stripe struggle to self-disrupt on fees• [25:32] Key challenges bridging TradFi and DeFi: compliance, on/off ramps, RWA liquidity, and security insurance• [27:33] The hardest role to hire for: go-to-market talent that bridges crypto-native and institutional worlds• [30:54] What's next in crypto: tokenization plus DeFi becoming invisible infrastructure powering mainstream finance apps• [33:26] Reid's advice for founders and investors: keep turning the crank, stay curious, never get complacent• [34:56] Ground's asks: hiring engineers and a BD lead, onboarding corporate treasury clients, and building yield or investment products

 EPISODE DESCRIPTION I sat down with Ilies, CEO of Ouinex, a crypto exchange that launched earlier this year with one clear mission: stop retail traders from getting crushed by institutions on unfair playing fields. Ilies breaks down exactly how traditional crypto exchanges are structured in a way that lets market makers and financial institutions exploit everyday traders, and explains the specific model Ouinex uses to fix that. We also dig into why TradeFi instruments on most crypto exchanges cost retail traders five to seven times more than they should, how AI copilots could change the way traders manage positions, and where the market is headed as institutional money continues flowing into digital assets. If you have ever wondered why your trades seem to always go against you, this episode will open your eyes.DISCLAIMERNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - https://www.web3pod.xyz/ CONNECT Ouinex Website: https://ouinex.com/enTwitter/X: https://x.com/OuinexTelegram: https://t.me/+g8twTjE3_wUxY2E0Web3 with Sam Kamani: https://www.web3pod.xyz/ KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS • [00:54] Ilies shares his background, starting at FXCM 25 years ago and building his way into crypto and founding Ouinex in 2022• [03:24] He explains the central limit order book problem: retail traders are competing in the same order book as well-funded institutions with co-location and full trading teams• [07:26] Ouinex introduces the no-taker execution model, where market makers can only make markets, not take orders, and have no visibility into retail client orders• [08:19] TradeFi instruments on Ouinex tap into decades-old bank liquidity from Goldman, Citi, and Deutsche, making Ouinex around 20x more liquid than competitors on those instruments• [10:23] Ilies compares spreads: a normal TradeFi broker offers around one point on gold, while major crypto exchanges charge around seven points for the same product• [15:37] He describes how thin crypto liquidity lets institutions move markets with small capital, keeping retail as what he calls exit liquidity• [20:00] Ouinex is a multi-asset platform, so when crypto is flat, users can access oil, gold, Nasdaq, and equity markets all from one interface• [21:28] On regulation, Ouinex is actively working with a local partner to obtain a MiCA-aligned license in Europe• [26:24] Discussion on AI in trading: Ilies is skeptical of predictive AI signals but excited about an AI copilot feature that would call traders when their positions hit key levels• [30:30] Ilies and Sam discuss the growing wave of institutional interest in digital assets, with family offices and hedge funds expanding into crypto• [34:30] North Star metrics for Ouinex are trade volume and retention, and currently almost no users are leaving once they join• [37:48] Ouinex is preparing for a seed or Series A round, targeting documentation ready by end of August, and is inviting traders to try the platform

 EPISODE DESCRIPTION I sat down with Wei Zhou, CEO of Coins.ph, to dig into how they're building stablecoin infrastructure that's genuinely changing lives in the Philippines and beyond. Wei walked me through his journey from Goldman Sachs to Binance CFO to buying Coins.ph from Gojek in 2022 and rebuilding it from scratch. We talked about why the Philippines has become a global leader in stablecoin adoption, how they slashed payment fees from 4-8% down to near-zero for Filipino freelancers, and why Wei believes every country needs its own blockchain currency , not just a blockchain dollar. We also got into the Genius Act, the Clarity Act, the upcoming wave of tokenized assets, and what it will take for stablecoins to go truly global. This one is packed with real-world insight from someone actually in the trenches of building payments infrastructure at the intersection of crypto and emerging markets. DISCLAIMERNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - https://www.web3pod.xyz/ CONNECT Coins.ph Website: https://www.coins.ph/en-phCoins.ph Twitter/X: https://x.com/coinsphLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/coins-ph/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@coinsph_officialWeb3 with Sam Kamani: https://www.web3pod.xyz/ KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS • [00:01] Introduction to Wei Zhou and Coins.ph, building stablecoin infrastructure for the Philippines• [01:11] Wei's journey: Goldman Sachs, Binance CFO, buying Coins.ph from Gojek in 2022 and rebuilding it from scratch• [04:49] Why the Philippines is a natural fit for stablecoin adoption , the gig economy, English fluency, and the unbanked• [06:22] How Coins.ph cut payment fees from 4-8% (PayPal) to under 0.2% using USDC and USDT rails• [09:36] New feature: users can now spend USDT and USDC directly without converting to pesos, protecting against FX losses• [10:47] Financial literacy over crypto education , why Coins.ph focuses on helping people avoid scams first• [15:44] The importance of being a licensed VASP and e-money issuer , stacking regulatory 'Lego blocks'• [18:50] Institutional adoption in the US vs retail/payment adoption in emerging markets , why they differ• [19:49] The Genius Act's impact on stablecoin growth and why the Clarity Act could unlock the next wave of token issuance• [26:39] Why USD will remain dominant in stablecoins , mirroring the traditional FX market structure• [33:47] Tokenization wave: NASDAQ, SWIFT, DTCC, and the SEC all moving toward blockchain-based assets• [36:26] Coins.ph super app redesign , crypto payments via QR at local merchants with near-zero fees• [36:58] PHP-C: a Philippine peso-backed stablecoin already in BSP sandbox, waiting for regulatory sign-off• [38:03] Why every country needs 'blockchain pesos' to match blockchain dollars , currency sovereignty on-chain• [39:56] Vision for Coins.ph: evolving into an all-in-one fintech with trading, payments, savings, investing, and lending• [43:29] Expansion into Brazil and other regions, plus ongoing fundraising conversations

 EPISODE DESCRIPTION I sat down with Kenny Wood, CEO of Sleepagotchi, to talk about one of the most underrated pillars of health , sleep. Kenny brings over 20 years of games industry experience, from building Barbie titles in Yorkshire to shipping serious simulations for the Dutch government, and now he's channelling all of that into a product that sits at the crossroads of gaming, AI agents, and wellness. We dig into how Sleepagotchi works, why sleep is the root of everything from longevity to job performance, how they have engaged over 2 million users, what is coming next with multiple AI agents covering sleep coaching, meal planning, and even a shopping agent, and why health data regulation is one of the trickiest challenges in the space. If you have ever bragged about running on four hours of sleep, this episode is for you. DISCLAIMERNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - https://www.web3pod.xyz/ CONNECT Sleepagotchi Website:https://www.sleepagotchi.com/Telegram: https://t.me/sleepagotchiLITE_botWeb3 with Sam Kamani Website: https://www.web3pod.xyz KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS • [00:00] Sam introduces Sleepagotchi and Kenny Wood, highlighting 2 million users at the crossroads of wellness, AI, and gaming• [01:11] Kenny shares his 20+ year journey in games , from Barbie titles and Transformers to serious simulations for the Dutch government• [02:11] Kenny's role as CTO of Moonlander, building AI-generated scene generation sold to Alpha 3D, before joining Sleepagotchi as CEO• [03:50] How Sleepagotchi works , pulling data from wearables via Apple Health Kit and Android Health Connect, processed by AI agents• [05:25] The unique feature coming soon: asking the AI direct questions about your own sleep data• [06:54] Why sleep-to-earn is different from step-to-earn , habit formation over token emissions• [08:54] Why sleep is culturally undervalued and how fixing sleep improves everything from longevity to job performance• [11:42] How habit and motivation are the key to long-term user retention beyond early incentives• [13:02] The GDPR and health data regulation challenge , and why all Sleepagotchi data stays on-device and anonymous• [15:24] The case for anonymous health data cohorts accelerating medical research at population scale• [17:09] Sleepagotchi's numbers: 2 million Telegram lite app users and 200,000 iOS and Android users• [21:23] What is next , four AI agents: sleep coach, wellness coach, meal planner, and a shopping agent with a health marketplace• [23:18] The biggest challenge: delivering something genuinely useful and novel while navigating health and wellness regulations• [25:30] The future of AI personal assistants and how the film Her might be a blueprint for where health AI is heading• [27:28] Kenny's biggest ask , try the app and follow Sleepagotchi on their official channels

In this episode, I sit down with Marko, Co-founder of Tapir Protocol, to break down one of the most underappreciated risks in DeFi , depegging. We dig into how stablecoins and yield-bearing assets can lose their peg, what the real financial damage looks like (spoiler: up to $3.3 billion in losses between 2020 and 2025), and how Tapir is building a smarter, fully automatic, non-custodial solution to protect investors without sacrificing yield or capital efficiency. Marko walks me through how Tapir splits a single asset into a depeg-protected version and a yield-boosted version, letting the market price the risk rather than a committee deciding your claim. Whether you manage a treasury, run a fund, or just want safer DeFi yields, this conversation is packed with practical insight. DisclaimerNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - https://www.web3pod.xyz/--- CONNECT ---Tapir Protocol Website: https://tapir.money/ Marko on Twitter/X: https://x.com/markoinether Tapir X/twitter: https://x.com/Tapir_Protocol--- KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS ---• [00:00] Sam introduces Marko from Tapir Protocol and the focus on safer DeFi for institutional and retail investors• [01:19] Marko shares his background , from e-commerce to crypto in 2015, winning ETH Global hackathons in 2020 and 2021, building Marinate Finance (first liquid staking on Solana), and leading developer ecosystems at SSV Network• [04:15] Discussion on the explosive growth of stablecoins and why stablecoin yield products are the focus for Tapir• [07:02] Deep dive into what a depeg is and a live case study of APX USD trading at 80 cents on the dollar• [08:48] How Tapir splits one asset into three: a base version, a depeg-protected version, and a yield-boosted version , all 100% capital efficient• [13:02] Tapir's business model , a marketplace that earns a small fee on minting and redeeming assets• [13:59] Where Tapir is in its lifecycle , live on mainnet, running with internal funds, opening to launch partners and private mainnet users very soon• [16:05] Who Tapir is built for , DAO treasuries, fund managers, and any DeFi investor who understands that risk is real• [19:07] Sam and Marko discuss the drop in DeFi TVL from $180B to ~$69B and how AI-assisted bug finding is increasing vulnerability concerns• [21:23] Tapir has completed two independent audits and keeps its entire codebase under 1,000 lines of code to minimise attack surface• [24:36] Marko's take on algorithmic stablecoins , most fail because of positive feedback loops that collapse under stress• [26:22] Breakdown of Tapir's depeg analysis: long-term depeg losses estimated at $1.5B to $3.3B between 2020 and 2025• [30:46] How Tapir differentiates from Nexus Mutual, Y2K Finance, and other risk protection protocols , fully automatic resolution, no claims committees, and no capital inefficiency• [39:48] Will USD-denominated stablecoins keep dominating? Marko shares his view and gives a shoutout to Vifi (Virtual Finance) building for smaller currencies• [44:00] What's next for Tapir , opening to external users, launching higher-yield pools targeting ~15%, and looking for feedback from funds on which assets to list next

 EPISODE DESCRIPTION I sat down with Pasha from Igra Labs in Berlin to dig into one of the most contrarian bets in Web3 right now , EVM on proof of work. Pasha walks me through why he left the Ethereum ecosystem, what drew him to Kaspa's BlockDAG architecture, and why he believes proof of work offers something proof of stake simply cannot: real fairness. We get into MEV resilience, censorship resistance, and why 10 blocks per second with no centralized sequencer changes everything for DeFi builders. We also cover Multitude, their brand new sovereign execution zones product, and why AI agents might finally be the user experience layer that makes Web3 click for everyone. If you're a founder, a builder, or just someone curious about where the next wave of adoption is coming from, this one is packed.  CONNECT Igra Labs Website: https://igralabs.com/heroDeploy your sovereign finance chain infrastructure https://igralabs.com/multitude Igra Labs Twitter/X: https://x.com/Igra_LabsPavel LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emdin/Web3 with Sam Kamani Podcast: https://www.web3pod.xyz/ KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS • [00:30] Introduction to Pasha from Igra Labs and what the episode covers• [01:51] Pasha's backstory , from Delivery Hero and Auto One to falling into crypto in 2017• [03:24] The core problem Igra Labs is solving: bringing EVM to proof of work via the Kaspa BlockDAG• [05:53] Why proof of work still makes sense , decentralization, security, and hardware commitment• [07:47] MEV resilience and front-run resistance as the killer property of EVM on proof of work• [09:44] Real use cases: stablecoins, DeFi, RWAs, and AI agentic settlement on Igra• [12:39] How EVM makes it easy for developers , Solidity tooling, SDKs, and AI coding agents• [14:26] Developer onboarding in minutes using a single GitBook link and an AI agent• [16:26] Introducing Multitude , sovereign execution zones allowing teams to launch their own Igra• [18:52] How Multitude differs from parachains, appchains, and L2 models like OpStack• [21:25] Where Web3 goes next , AI agents as the UX layer that finally unlocks mass adoption• [24:48] An agentic marketplace being built on Igra , like Upwork, but for AI agents• [27:02] What Pasha would do differently if starting Igra Labs today• [27:52] Current asks: design partners for Multitude, a small strategic round, and ambitious buildersDISCLAIMERNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - ⁠https://www.web3pod.xyz/

 EPISODE DESCRIPTION I sat down with Danny from Trezor at BTC Prague to dig into everything they've built over the last 12 years , from pioneering the hardware wallet industry to shipping over 2 million devices without ever taking a cent of venture capital. We talked about the growing tension between Bitcoin institutionalisation and self-custody, why AI agents are actually the strongest argument yet for owning a hardware wallet, and what makes the Trezor Safe 7 a genuinely different product. Danny also opened up about the brutal realities of running a hardware startup through crypto's wild bull and bear cycles, and where Trezor is headed next , from inheritance solutions to everyday Bitcoin spending. If you care about truly owning your crypto, this one is for you. DISCLAIMERNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - https://www.web3pod.xyz/ CONNECT Trezor Website: https://trezor.io/Trezor Twitter/X: https://x.com/TrezorDanny Twitter/X: https://x.com/DantoshiTrezor LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/trezor Danny LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dsand/Trezor YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TrezorWallet Web3 with Sam Kamani: https://www.web3pod.xyz/  KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS • [00:00] Trezor pioneered the hardware wallet industry in 2014 and has never taken venture capital money• [01:59] Overview of the hardware wallet landscape and how Trezor balances security with usability• [04:24] Only about 50 million people are in self-custody out of 500-600 million in crypto , education is key• [06:48] Why Trezor is based in Prague and how Czech culture shaped the Bitcoin-native mindset behind it• [08:58] Danny's honest take on Bitcoin's institutionalization and why peer-to-peer self-custody still matters• [11:23] What drove Trezor to 2 million users , open source, transparency, and community trust• [13:49] A breakdown of the Trezor Safe 5 and what makes it the most premium hardware wallet they've built• [16:01] Why hardware is harder than software and how Trezor manages supply chain in a cyclical market• [18:30] How Trezor manages cash flow , stacking Bitcoin instead of chasing VC and staying conservative• [19:40] Trezor's revenue model: hardware, accessories, and software services like swapping and staking• [20:52] Inheritance planning, SLIP39 Shamir backup, and why multi-share is a game changer for security• [23:19] Why Trezor's 2 million users are some of the most valuable people in crypto and the responsibility that comes with it• [25:23] Why the AI agent wave is the biggest argument yet for owning a hardware wallet• [27:44] Could the Trezor become a general-purpose security device beyond crypto , 2FA, digital identity, and more• [30:09] Trezor's vision for the next two to five years and what partnerships they are looking for

 EPISODE DESCRIPTION In this episode, I sit down with Milos, Lead Engineer at Enso, live at Berlin Blockchain Week. We dig into the real problem holding back DeFi builders, complexity. Audits cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, bridges are a nightmare, and integrating protocols is a full-time job on its own. Enso is tackling all of that with a single API that handles routing, security, and DeFi actions across 100-plus protocols, so developers and agents can just build. We also get into the RWA boom, the current state of AI agents in Web3, and why Milos thinks we should never forget where DeFi came from. DISCLAIMERNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - https://www.web3pod.xyz/ CONNECT Enso Website:https://www.enso.build/Enso Twitter/X: https://x.com/EnsoBuildEnso LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/enso-build/Milos LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/miloscostantini/Web3 with Sam Kamani: https://www.web3pod.xyz/ KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS • [00:00] Milos explains the core problem Enso solves: complexity for DeFi developers• [01:33] Milos's personal journey from mining Bitcoin as a student in 2016 to writing his thesis on Ethereum• [03:13] How smart contract development has and hasn't changed over the years• [06:00] How Enso's API removes the need for developers to deploy integration contracts or manage bridges• [07:00] Built-in security defaults, like MEV protection on DEX swaps, that come with Enso• [07:53] Why using Enso means you don't need your own smart contract audit• [09:36] The biggest trend Enso is seeing: RWA and tokenized stocks• [10:43] How Enso lets users buy tokenized stocks using any token from any chain• [11:40] Flash loan aggregator and looping positions, what's coming next• [12:05] How Enso makes money through fee-split partnerships with integrators• [13:00] The long-term vision: becoming the most composable orchestration layer in DeFi• [14:29] Milos's take on the current hardening era for DeFi and the rise of hacks• [16:38] His most contrarian view: don't forget Web3's roots in permissionless experimentation and values• [18:23] Notable projects built on Enso including Yearn, EtherFi, and the Boiko Layer 0 migration• [20:44] Advice for builders: don't give up, explore on-chain options protocols• [22:28] Enso is profitable and actively hiring

 EPISODE DESCRIPTION I sat down with André Dragosch, European Head of Research at Bitwise Investments, live at Bitcoin Prague in the Czech Republic. Bitwise manages over $11 billion in AUM and Andre breaks down exactly why institutional investors are quietly rotating capital out of AI stocks and into crypto assets right now. We dig into why Bitcoin behaves more like a CDS on sovereign bonds than an equity hedge, how ETPs solve the custody headache for family offices and pension funds, and why the K-shaped economy in the US is actually one of the most bullish setups Bitcoin has ever seen. Andre also shares where Bitwise is expanding next, including staking on Ethereum and Solana and curated vault strategies. This is one of the most grounded, data-driven macro conversations I have had on the show and I think you will get a lot out of it. DISCLAIMERNothing mentioned in this podcast is investment advice and please do your own research. It would mean a lot if you can leave a review of this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this podcast with a friend. Be a guest on the podcast or contact us - https://www.web3pod.xyz/ CONNECT Bitwise Investments Website: https://bitwiseinvestments.eu/Twitter/X - Bitwise: https://x.com/Bitwise_EuropeLinkedIn - André Dragosch: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andredragosch/ Web3 with Sam Kamani: https://www.web3pod.xyz KEY POINTS WITH TIMESTAMPS • [00:00] Bitcoin acts as a CDS on sovereign bonds and is trading in the lowest 10% of valuations across multiple metrics• [02:05] Andre's journey from Dogecoin in 2013 to European Head of Research at Bitwise, including his time at Union Investment• [04:28] How ETC Group was acquired by Bitwise in summer 2024 and became Bitwise Europe• [06:52] Why ETPs solve custody, regulatory, and cost problems for institutional investors and pension fund holders• [09:14] Capital rotation already happening from expensive AI stocks into cheap crypto assets• [11:40] Why Bitcoin's correlation with Nasdaq has risen since the US ETF launch but it showed resilience during the recent AI correction• [14:02] Bitcoin as a macro canary in the coal mine, signalling liquidity deterioration before it hits equities• [16:18] Risks in private credit financing AI CapEx and the comparison to Cisco during the dot-com era• [20:57] Why the Fed's reaction function would be far more aggressive today given how politically dependent the economy is on rising stock prices• [23:15] The K-shaped economy in the US and why 90% of the population is being left behind• [24:41] Bitwise's next growth areas: staking on Ethereum and Solana, and curated vault strategies• [25:41] How flows into ETPs are both cyclical and sentiment-driven, but strategic allocators invest regardless of price