Design Can’t Rely on Logic: Troy Leinster on Type Design and Human Perception

In this episode, I reconnect with my former instructor, type designer and design coach Troy Leinster. Troy shares his journey from graphic design to type design, and explains why learning to make letters makes you a better designer. We also dig into the importance of trusting the human eye over geometry, the productive friction of sketching by hand, and how understanding calligraphy builds a stronger perspective on type design. Troy discusses why, in the age of AI, the most important thing a designer can do is put their personal touch on the work.

Rob Giampietro, Head of Creative at Notion and former Design Director at MoMA, returns to the show to unpack the story behind Notion Faces, the popular tool that allows users to create their own illustrated avatar. Rob details the project's journey from a beloved internal tradition to a major public launch, including the pivotal decision to scale with human illustrators instead of AI to maintain the brand's unique, handcrafted quality. The conversation explores how the team shifted its focus from “likeness” to “expression,” the power of modularity in design systems, and the research process that made the project a success. 📋 Read a transcript 📡 Subscribe

In this episode, designer, educator, and author David Reinfurt returns to the show to discuss his latest book, A *Co-* Program for Graphic Design. Born from a series of lectures delivered remotely, online, and together with collaborators and cooperators, the new book builds on his earlier “spoken” book, exploring some unexpected and intuitive overlaps between design and the rest of the world around us. In conversation, Liam and David cover the power of hands-on learning, the importance of going against expectations as a designer, and the positionality of design—its closeness to everyday life, how it affects those that encounter it, and how it’s taught—and how individual perspective is the real driver of design as a practice. Read a full transcript.   Episode Chapters: 00:00 Introduction and Background 08:53 Teaching as Performance 14:34 The Role of Collaboration in Design 18:26 Diverse Perspectives in Design Education 21:55 Exploring Design Space and Topology 26:34 Hands-On Learning in Design Education 30:13 Art and Design 32:34 Creating Space for Reflection in Design 36:34 The Evolution of Design Conventions 39:38 The Bait and Switch 42:04 Individual Perspectives in Design

This special episode digs into the latest evolution of Google’s design system: Material 3 Expressive. Liam talks with Material Design’s Android Product Manager Aneesha Kommineni, UX Researcher Michael Gilbert, and Creative Director Andy Stewart about the team’s latest emotion-driven UX update. They reveal how this system is grounded in user research and how it offers both developers and users more flexibility. The group also chats about making design more than objective, connecting to users' emotional landscapes, and driving business outcomes — all while considering tooling, usability, accessibility, and more. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes featuring guests like O-R-G's David Reinfurt, type designer Troy Leinster, and more! Read a full transcript.

This season's special series celebrating ten years since the launch of Material Design closes out with Rich Fulcher, former Google UX director and Material design lead. Fulcher remembers the career-defining journey of creating Material, what it was like to make beauty a UX priority, how to pressure test a system, and what he’s learned about world-building across disciplines. Today, he’s creating board games, continuing to apply the design-thinking and problem-solving skills developed during his time at Google. Leave us a rating, and subscribe so you don't miss new episodes with creative practitioners across disciplines. 📻

This season's special series celebrating ten years since the launch of Material Design continues with Adrian Secord, who describes himself as a “roving engineer.” Adrian has over a decade of experience building systems and tools that transform design into robust product engineering at scale. Plus, a PhD in Computer Graphics. Here, he reflects on the evolution of Material Design and the (potentially) exciting possibilities for AI-driven UI. He shares insights on the complexities of large-scale design systems and highlights the need for designers and engineers to find common ground.

This season's special series celebrating ten years since the launch of Material Design continues with Software Engineering Manager and Musical Theater Writer Will Larche, who talks about his path to become an engineering manager at Google. Larche, a self-proclaimed “design fan,” describes engineering as “creativity with constraints.” Here, he explains how the development of Material over the years has led to closer collaboration between design and engineering, and imagines how new AI experiments might open up a new era of “Star Trek design.”

This episode is part of a special series celebrating ten years of Material Design. In the episode, Liam speaks with Bethany Fong, a Design Director at Meta who was a pivotal figure in the creation of Material Design. During her time at Google, Fong was responsible for designing the first set of Material components (including Material’s signature Floating Action Button), and went on to become a design Lead on the team. In their conversation, Liam and Bethany talk about the tactile nature of design, the importance of keeping a notebook, and how the heady early days of Material unfolded. 👉 Read a full transcript 📻 Subscribe to Design Notes

This season begins with a special series celebrating ten years since the launch of Material Design, which will explore the inception, evolution, and future of Google’s design approach. The first episode features the founder of Material Design and Design VP Matías Duarte, whose work on the system has pushed design forward at Google and across devices everywhere. In their conversation, Liam and Matías unpack how interfaces are made, used, and understood—and identify opportunities to move them further into the future via a highly crafted, individualized design approach. 👉 Read a full transcript 📻 Subscribe to Design Notes

Liam speaks with Googlers Connie Shi, a software engineer on Material Design, and Matvei Malkov, a software engineer on Jetpack Compose, and the trio unpack what makes coding a creative practice, and which creative choices are required when you build a design system for other developers around the world. The wide-ranging conversation turns from complex problem solving and technical logic to the concept of creativity as the question-provoking quality of a thought. 📝 Read a full transcript 📻 Subscribe to Design Notes