Growing power: connecting energy and agriculture with Dr. Rupp Carriveau

Trevor reconnects with his former professor, Dr. Rupp Carriveau from the University of Windsor, to explore how Southern Ontario’s agriculture and energy sectors intersect. From powering greenhouses and managing massive industrial demand to reimagining aging wind farms and testing “atomic agriculture,” together they unpack how innovation, AI, and new tech are reshaping Canada’s clean energy future. Listen to episode 164 of thinkenery.    Related links Dr. Rupp Carriveau on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rupp-carriveau-b4273823/ Environmental Energy Institute: https://www.environmentalenergyinstitute.com/ Turbulence and Energy Lab: http://www.turbulenceandenergylab.org/ Offshore Energy and Storage Society: https://www.osessociety.com/    Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114    Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en      To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to thinkenergy, a podcast that dives into the fast, changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, hi everyone, and welcome back. Today's episode brings us back to a few elements of my own personal history. Now you'll have to bear with me for a minute or two while I dive into my past in order to properly set up today's conversation, I grew up in southwestern Ontario, in and just outside the border town of Windsor, Ontario. Now for those of you not familiar with this area, Windsor and its surroundings are the most southern part of Canada. It might surprise you to know that Windsor is at the same latitude as Northern California and Rome, Italy. You can imagine that after growing up in Windsor and then living in various places around the globe, when I finally settled down here in Ottawa, adjusting to the more stereotypical Canadian winters of this northern capital, took a little bit of getting used to Windsor is so far south when you cross the border to its neighboring American city, Detroit, Michigan, you actually travel north. Have a look at a map if this seems to defy logic, but I promise you, it's true. This is the area that I grew up in. It's also where I went to school and got my engineering degree. More on that in a minute. Now, if you've ever driven down to the southwestern end of the 401 going past London and Chatham, you will notice two things. First, it is flat, very flat. You will not see a meaningful Hill anywhere in sight. I often joke with people that I used to toboggan when we did get any meaningful snow off of highway overpasses, because that was the only hill we could find. I was only partly joking, and I have indeed tobogganed off of said overpasses in my young and foolish days. But that is a story for another time. That brings us to the second thing you'll see, which is wind turbines. A lot of wind turbines. They are seemingly everywhere, stretching as far as you can see, southwestern Ontario is a hotbed of wind energy generation. Finally, a hint at why I'm going on about this part of the province on an energy podcast. But before we get into it, there's one other thing to touch on, and that is the fact that this area is also home to a large number of greenhouses growing produce year-round, as well as manufacturing. Windsor and its surrounding area is the automotive capital of Canada, with a number of plants from major car companies, as well as a supporting ecosystem of parts manufacturers. Incidentally, that's where I started my career, working as an environmental engineer for one of the automakers, and many members of my family have also worked or still work in that industry. The reason I bring up greenhouses in the auto industry is because they have some very high energy demand profiles, and that is how we get for me going on nostalgically about the area I grew up in, to our conversation today, I recently caught up with one of my engineering professors, Dr Rupp Carriveau, about the work that he and his colleagues have been doing that ties all of this together. And I thought it would be great to have him on the show to talk about that. Dr. Carriveau is the director of the Environmental Energy Institute and co-director of the Turbulence and Energy Lab and the CO lead of AGUwin at the University of Windsor. Back in the day, he was my fluid dynamics professor. But today, he balances his teaching duties with research into energy systems futures and advanced agricultural systems. He is a founder of the offshore energy and storage society, a recipient of the University Scholar Award, and has been named to Canada's clean 50 for his contributions to clean capitalism. Dr Rupp Carriveau, welcome to the show.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  03:59 Trevor, great to be here. Thanks.   Trevor Freeman  04:01 Yeah. So, Rupp, the last time we chatted, well, so you and I chatted a couple weeks ago, but before that, the last time that you and I interacted, I was in third year university. You were my fluid dynamics Prof. So, in addition to your professorial duties, you're now the director of the environmental Energy Institute at the University of Windsor. So, there's two questions around that. First off, how did you end up going from my fluid dynamics prof a number of years ago, probably close to 20 years ago now, to running this institute? And tell us a little bit about what the Institute does.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  04:40 Sure. Though. So, thanks. Yeah, and very memorable Trevor, because I, you know, I remember you well. And, yeah, that was, that was a very nice class that we had. I remember, well, I remember your colleagues too.   Trevor Freeman  04:54 If there's one thing I do, well, it's, it's be memorable, and you can take that however you want.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  04:58 That is, that is. Something to be said for that. Yeah, thanks for that question. So I should point out that in addition to EEI, I am a co-director in the Turbulence and Energy Lab, which is really where all of the EEI initiatives have started from, that's a lab that I co supervise with Dr David Ting in mechanical engineering and the nuts and bolts, the very serious engineering side of things, comes out of the Turbulence and Energy Lab. EEI kind of came about to handle topics that were, frankly speaking, less interesting to Dr Ting. So, things that push more, a little bit more into policy wider systems looks at things as opposed to, you know, pure thermodynamics and energy efficiency type pursuits, which underpin a lot of the EEI policy pieces, but are sort of beyond the scope of what turbulence and energy lab does. So those two things, and then more recently, actually, I'm co lead on, AGUwin, which is like a center of excellence, emerging Center of Excellence at the University of Windsor. So, Agriculture U Windsor is a group of about 40 professors that do work in agriculture in some shape or form. And we've, we've, we've taken to organizing that movement in seeking sort of group funding proposals, developing curriculum and organized sort of platforms to help industry in agriculture. And it's, it's really taking off, which I'm really excited about my extremely hard-working colleagues and CO lead, Isabel Barrett-Ng, she in particular, has been really driving a lot of really cool initiatives ahead and all the people that work with us. So, yeah, lots, lots happening at the University since I saw you last. But you know, time has a way of helping with that, people find ways to find efficiencies and get to do and build on, build on, hopefully incremental progress.   Trevor Freeman  07:08 Yeah, very cool. And you're teasing a few of the areas our conversation is going to go today, that sort of intersection between agriculture and obviously, this is an energy podcast, and so how does agriculture and the way we're moving in with agriculture impacts energy and vice versa. So, we're definitely going to get to that in a minute, I think, for our listeners that are not familiar with Southern Ontario, and I haven't talked about Southern Ontario on the podcast a lot, but people that know me know I will gladly talk about what goes on in the very southern part of our country. It's where I grew up. Help us paint a picture of what Southern Ontario is like. So, in the context of energy, what makes this area of Ontario unique?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  07:50 Well, it's that's a really good question, and I'm glad you phrased it that way, because I think it gets taken for granted. And also, folks, folks don't know energy isn't in the headlines every day, and if it is, it's not a headline that everybody pays attention to. But the southwestern Ontario region, if you take the 401 west of London, you'll start to see a high concentration of wind. So, there's a significant wind corridor in the region, and that's because it's very flat, so the whole area used to be a lake bed, and so we have very fertile agricultural lands as a result of that. And we also have very few obstacles to fetch, which is a huge aspect of how wind carries over the lakes, and is, you know, not, not obstructed. And so it's like you have offshore resources onshore, which is completely ideal. Also, we have, as it may be, we have massive natural gas resources in the area, in sort of the subterranean space of Devonian reefs for natural gas storage. We have natural gas generation facilities down around the Windsor area that help with provincial peaking and there is some solar in the region, because it is the Leamington Kingsville area is referred to as the sun parlor of Ontario. And as a result, we have a lot of under glass agriculture there, which benefits, obviously, directly from solar resources. And then we have solar photovoltaic that takes advantage of that sun as well. So there's, there's a lot happening here energy wise.   Trevor Freeman  09:38 Yeah, and there's a lot on the demand side of things as well. So, you mentioned the greenhouses, which are an up and coming, you know, source of demand draws on our grid. There's also a big manufacturing base. Talk a little bit about the manufacturing base in the area. Yeah, yeah. And that's that gets into my next question is talking about some of the specific, unique energy needs of greenhouses. I think on the manufacturing side, you know, you mentioned the auto industry and the parts industry that supports it, you're seeing more. There's a battery plant being built now I think that, I think people have a sense of that, but greenhouses are this thing that I think a lot of folks don't think about. So, you talked about the magnitude of the load, the lighting side of things. What else is this like, a 24/7 load? Is this sector growing like? Tell us a little bit about, you know where things are going with greenhouses?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  09:53 Yeah, thanks. So, yeah, I was, I was thinking about generation and, yeah, demand is. Significant we have. You know, Windsor has laid claim to Canada's automotive capital, and while I'm biased, I'd like to think it still is. And so we have significant manufacturing around the automotive industry, either automotive OEMs or tier one parts makers that have significant draws. We have Stellantis. Every minivan comes out of this area has come out of this area. The electric Dodge Charger comes out of this area. But there are engine plants for Ford, but they're also now, you know, sort of next generation transport technologies. You've talking about battery manufacturing. So, there's an enormous LG consortium with Stellantis here that's doing battery manufacturing. And so, these are huge loads that that add to existing and growing loads in the greenhouse space, which, again, I'll just mention it now, is something that isn't well understood. And we did a, we did a study for the province a couple years, three, four years ago. Now, I think grid Innovation Fund project that looked at sort of really getting into granular detailing of the loads that come with a lit greenhouse. A lot of people don't appreciate that a lit greenhouse, when switched on, depending on the lighting technology, depending on how it's used, can be like a 50-megawatt load, which is a significant load. And just imagine that's one so they can come on quickly, and they are non-trivial, significant loads. And so, this is something that we looked at trying to develop distributed energy resource sort of solutions for, because, simply speaking, you can't put up a new transmission line overnight, and we don't want to economically constrain the growth of the sector. Sure, yeah. I mean, it's, it's not a simple thing to characterize, because what you can take away from this is that these greenhouse developers are business dynamos, and frankly speaking, many of them do very well, because they're very good at what they do, and with the resources they have, they can largely do what they want. And if, if the infrastructure isn't there, they will build it so. So, you'll have folks that are operating off the grid, essentially not off the gas grid, of course, but they're using gas for cogeneration purposes, to produce heat for their crops, but also the electricity for their lights. So that is one aspect of it that further complicates how to figure out what these loads on the grid will be. But for the most part, of course, the grid provides quite clean and quite affordable electricity in the province, and you know where they can they want to be able to connect to the grid. Now, lights are designed to extend the growing day and extend the growing season as well. So, in terms of when they're switched on and how they're switched on, that is highly variable, and that is also something that is, I would say, in development, folks are looking at different ways to use intermittent lighting to be conscious of when peaking happens. It is dispatchable in a way, in that some growers are able to turn their lights off to avoid, you know, peaking charges. But again, there's a lot to manage. And, and it's, it's very complicated, both on the grid side and, and for the greenhouse grower.   Trevor Freeman  14:38 Yeah, so you mentioned natural gas for cogen for heating as well. So, as we look to decarbonize all different aspects of the sector, we talk often on the show of what are the specific areas where decarbonization might be challenging. Is, is greenhouses one of those areas? And, and what are the options available for heating these spaces? Like, is it realistic to think that there's an electric solution here, or what? What's happening in that sector related to decarbonization?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  15:10 Again, you've hit on a real sort of hot button issue for the for the sector, the trouble with natural gas is that it's spectacular. Oh, it's storable. It's dispatchable. It's a triple threat for greenhouses in the best way possible, because you can make your heat, you can make your electricity, and the plants crave CO2, and that comes out of the flue gas on the other side of the combustion reaction. So, you know, when you swing in there and you say, Oh, I've got this great new solution. It's called hydrogen. We'll burn hydrogen and we won't have these nasty CO2 release. And they're like, Okay, who's going to replace my CO2? So, it's a difficult fuel to displace. Now, admittedly, people understand that, you know, that's where we really need to go. And is, is electric? You know, electrification the path. So, people talk about, people talk about heat pumps, people talk about electric boilers. And then, as I mentioned, people talked about, you know, we've, we've also looked at the idea of blending hydrogen into a natural gas feed for existing infrastructure to, you know, because, because not all of the CO2, that is, you know, released is, is taken down by the plants. And so could you get to a magic blend where it's just the amount of CO2 that you need is what goes into the other side, and then there's nothing left after the plants take what they need. So, there's a lot of things that are being looked at. It is again, a challenging space to operate in, because it's highly competitive. Getting really granular. Data is very sensitive, because this, this, this is a, you know, it's a game of margins, and it's in its high stakes production. So to get in there and sort of be in the way is, is difficult. So, this work is being done. We're participating in a lot of this work. We just finished a study for the province, a Hydrogen Innovation Fund study on looking at the integration of hydrogen into the greenhouse space. And it was, it was pretty revelatory for us.   Trevor Freeman  17:36 So is the exhaust from burning natural gas on site. Does that get recycled through the greenhouse and therefore captured to some degree? Do we know how much you kind of hinted at finding out that sweet spot? Do we know how much of that gets captured?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  17:53 Yeah, so the short answer is yes. So, they have the cogen engines have scrubbers on them, and these, these machines are spectacularly capable of being tuned the combustion and the professionals that operate them at the greenhouse facilities are artists, and that they can get the sort of combustion profile a certain way, and so that that flue gas will go into the greenhouse, but to know exactly how much is being taken down, that is an area of active research, and we don't, we don't know that answer yet. There are people that are looking at it, and you can imagine it's kind of a provocative number for the sector. So, they're being very careful about how they do it.   Trevor Freeman  18:36  I'm sure, I'm sure. Okay, let's, let's park that just for a minute here, and jump back to something you mentioned earlier. You talked about one how flat Southern Ontario is, and it took me leaving, leaving the county before I really knew what skiing and tobogganing and everything else was. So, there's a lot of wind power generation. And for anyone listening, yeah, as rip mentioned, if you ever drive down the 401 going towards Windsor, you'll just start to see these massive wind turbines kind of everywhere you look. So, help us understand how these turbines, you know, you look out over a field and you see, you know, 2030, of them more in your line of sight. How do they connect to our provincial grid? How do the contracts work? Like, who gets that power? Give us a little bit of a sense of how that works.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  19:28 For sure. Yeah, well, so what most people don't realize, and again, it's not something that's talked about, and if it is, I don't know people are necessarily paying attention to it, but, but you know the comment I'll get from relatives we talked about Thanksgiving. So, you know people, because they know I'm a wind person, they'll be like, 'Hey, I was driving down the road and I saw they weren't spinning with, what's going on? Are they broken or what?' Well, you know, because we, we've got some pro wind and some non pro wind folks in the in the family, so it's an exciting time for me. But you know, and I mentioned that the greenhouses I'm working with are often starved for utility supply. And they said, well, how can that be? The turbines are right there. They're sharing the same space, right? And most people don't realize that. Really, I would say 95% of the wind in our corridor is put on a transmission line and sent up to, effectively, to Toronto, to be distributed throughout the province, which is great, but it's not really a local asset. And that was sort of what inspired us when we saw these two sorts of juxtaposed. We thought maybe you could turn these assets into something that acted as really a new type of distributed energy resource, and that you've got a transmission connected asset that's currently under contract, but if that contract could be modified, then the fiscal connections could potentially be modified so you could have local distribution, let's say at a time of maybe at a time of transmission curtailment, maybe under different conditions. So again, looking into the physical plausibility of it was part of our study, and then doing some sort of economic investigation of how that would work, having a nearly 20-year-old asset all of a sudden springing into a new role in a new life, where it continues to perform transmission duties for the province at large, but it also serves local needs in the production, let's say, of hydrogen through an electrolyzer, or just plain electrons turning lights on. That is something that isn't possible yet. Regulatory reasons exist for that that would require some, some significant changes. But it was a really interesting exercise to go through to investigate how that could happen.   Trevor Freeman  22:08 Yeah, so there's just trying to understand how this work. There's someone who owns these turbines. Some conglomerate somewhere, you know, Canadian, not Canadian, who knows. They contract with the Independent Electricity System Operator who operates the grid in the province. And they basically say, yeah, well, look, we'll provide you with X amount of power on some contract, and when ISO needs it, they call on it. How long do those contracts last? Is that a 10-year contract? A 20-year contract?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  22:35 So, they are in Ontario. The ones that I'm familiar with for 20 years. So it's possible there are others. I know. I have a there's a farm that operates in PEI that has a nice 30 year PPA. So the longer you can get, the better. Yeah, and these, these power purchase agreements are, are wonderful for developers, because they're known entities, doing the math on your finances is really straightforward with these contracts. And frankly speaking, when you had a sector that needed to be brought up from nothing, they were very necessary. They were very necessary. And but those contracts, and they're and they're locked down, as much as we try to, you know, persuade the province to get crazy, to amuse us with these new, newfangled ways of of connecting to people, commerce wise, through energy, they are not interested so far, at least in and they're like, let's finish these out, and then we can talk your crazy ideas, you know, and so, but that's we're getting glare, because I would say many, many, many farms in the province will be coming up on the sun setting end of Their power purchase agreements in the coming five, six years.   Trevor Freeman  24:03 Yeah, yeah. Which brings me to my next point, of the assets themselves, the actual physical turbine, I assume last longer than 20 years. You're going to build one of these things. You know, 20 years is not its end of life. So what are the options available today? You talked about regulatory barriers. We talk about regulatory barriers on this show often, what are, what are the options today for a wind farm that is at its end of contract? Does it look at re contracting? Can it kind of direct source to someone else? Like, what are the options available for an owner?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  24:40 Yeah, well, to me, it's an exciting time, because it could be work for us. We get excited about this. I think it could be a source of anxiety for owners, because there's nothing better than that long term contract. So many of them will try to apply for things like a medium, a new medium term length contract from the. Province, like an MT two, I think they're called. There are other contract types that are possible, but there'll be, it'll be a highly competitive landscape for those, and the in the province won't be able to give everyone one of these contracts. So some of these, some of these operators, will likely have to look at other options which may be going into the spot market, potentially, you know, getting into the capacity game by getting a battery on site and firming up their ability to provide power when necessary or provide capacity. And then there's a there isn't a relatively recent regulatory development in the around the middle of July, the province said, you know, if you're a non emitting generator and you're not under contract, you could provide virtual power someone else who might need it, if they're looking if they're a class, a customer that's trying to avoid peak charges. You know, rather than that class a customer buys a battery behind the meter and physically reduce their peaks. They could potentially virtually reduce their peaks by setting up a virtual power purchase agreement with another supplier. So these, these off contract spinning assets could have an opportunity to get into this game of peak relief. Which, which could be very lucrative. Because, based on last year's provincial global adjustment charges at large, you're looking at being paid something on the order of about $72,000 a megawatt hour for the, for the for the for the megawatt hours in question, which, which, of course, you know, try to get as many as you can. .   Trevor Freeman  26:31 Yeah. So there's a couple of things there. Bear with me while I connect a few dots for our listeners. So on different shows, we talk about different things. Global adjustment is one of them. And we've been talking here about these long term contracts. Global adjustment, as you might remember from previous conversations, is one of those mechanisms that bridges the gap between the spot market price, you know, the actual commodity cost of electricity that's out there, and some of the built-in cost to run the system, which includes these long term contracts. So there's a there's a fixed cost to run the system, global adjustment helps bridge that gap. The next concept here that is important to remember is this class, a strategy where the largest the largest customers, electricity customers in the province, have the opportunity to adjust how they are build global adjustment based on their contribution to the most intensive demand peaks in the province over the course of a year. So during a really high demand period, when everybody needs electricity, if they can reduce their demand, there's significant savings. And so what you're saying is there's this new this new ability for kind of a virtual connection, where, if I'm a big facility that has a high demand, and I contract with a generator, like a wind turbine that's not in contract anymore, I can say, hey, it's a peak time now I need to use some of your capacity to offset, you know, some of my demand, and there's those significant savings there. So you're absolutely right. That's a new thing in the province. We haven't had that ability up until just recently. So super fascinating, and that kind of connects our two topics today, that the large demand facilities in southern Ontario and these these generators that are potentially nearing the end of their contract and looking for what else might happen. So are you guys navigating that conversation between the greenhouses or the manufacturers and the generators?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  28:49 I'm so glad you asked. And here comes, here comes a shameless plug. Yeah? So yes. So there's a spin off company from the turbulence and Energy Lab, and it's called jailbreak labs. And jailbreak labs really represents sort of the space that is more commercial than research, but it also was sort of spurned, spurred from research. So jailbreak Labs has developed a registry, and we've been providing some webinars as well. So this, again, this is a company that that is essentially run by students, that this registry allows generators and consumers to ultimately find each other so that, so that these kinds of connections can be made. Because, as you may well imagine, there is no guarantee that the wind will be blowing at the time that you need it so, so and your load may be such that you need a different type of generation profile. So it needs to be profiling on the generation side. There needs to be profiling on the customer side. Yeah, and, you know, we've been doing this on our own for years. It was the time was right for us to sort of step in and say, because we were following this, we were real fanboys of this, of this reg, even before it came into play. And we kept bugging, you know, OEB for meetings and ISO and they, begrudgingly, to their credit, would chat with us about it, and then the next thing we know, it's announced that it's that it's happening. Was very exciting. So, so, yes, so we're really interested in seeing this happen, because it seems like such a unique, we're thrilled, because we're always interested in this sort of Second Life for assets that already have been depreciated and they're clean energy assets. Let's get everything we can out of them and to have this dynamic opportunity for them, and that will help Class A customers too hard for us to ignore.   Trevor Freeman  30:56 And you mentioned the last time we chatted about building a tool that helps evaluate and kind of injecting a little bit of AI decision making into this. Talk to us about that tool a little bit.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  31:08 Yeah. So we have a, we have a tool called quantract which is basically playing on the idea of quantifying all the risk and opportunity in in a contract. So it's really a contract visualization tool. Another way to think of it as a real time Net Present Value tool that allows renewable energy stakeholders to really, evaluate the value of their investment by not only understanding the physical life left in an asset. Let's say that a wind farm that's, you know, at 20 years and it looks like we may need to replace some blades. Do we just walk away and say, look at it. We had a good run contracts over, you know, we made some money. Let's sell the assets as they are. Or do we say, you know, I'm looking into this vppa game, and we could do okay here, but I'm not exactly sure how that's going to work and when. And so this, this tool that we've developed, will do things like will first of all identify all risk factors, and risk includes opportunities and then we'll profile them, and then builds them into basically what is more or less a glorified discounted cash flow model. So it is a way of measuring the potential value of investment in the AI space. I mean, the AI piece of it is that we have developed agents that will actually identify other things that are less, less sort of noticeable to people. In fact, this regulatory change is one of the things that our AI agents would have been looking for. Okay, now it pre it predated our tool going online, so we didn't see it, but it's the kind of thing that we'd be looking for. So the agents look for news, they look for changes online, and then, and then what happens is, they got brought, they get brought into a profiler. The profiler then determines the probability of or makes an estimate of the probability that this risk will occur. IE, a regulatory change will happen. IE, battery plant will come to town at a certain time. IE, a Costco facility will come in. Then we'll determine the potential magnitude. So there'll be uncertainty in the occurrence, there'll be uncertainty in the magnitude, and there'll be uncertainty in the timing. So we have basically statistical distribution functions for each one of those things, the likelihood of it happening, the magnitude and the timing. And so those are all modeled in so that people can push a button and, say, with this level of certainty your investment would be, would be worth this much. And that's dynamic. It's in real time. So it's changing constantly. It's being updated constantly. And so no so that that is something that goes in, and one of these virtual power purchase agreements would be one of the types of things that would go into this sort of investment timeline?   Trevor Freeman  34:22 Yeah, so it's giving these owners of these assets better data to make a decision about what comes next, as you said, and as we're talking I'm kind of doing the math here. If these are typically 20 year contracts, that's bringing us back to, you know, the mid, early, 2000s when we were really pushing to get off coal. So a lot of these assets probably started in and around that time. So you've probably got a whole bunch of customers, for lack of a better term, ready to start making decisions in the next you know, half a decade or so of what do I do with my. Sets. Have you seen this? Has it been used in the real world yet? Or is, are you getting close to that? Like, where are you at in development?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  35:07 Yeah, it actually started. It's funny. It started a little a little bit even before this craze. A couple years ago, we had, we had a manufacturer in our county come to us with, they had a great interest in, in just, just they were trying to be proactive about avoiding carbon tax and so, and they wanted to develop a new generation technology close to their facility. And so we used it there since that time. Yeah, so, so it was field proven that was a still a research contract, because they were the technology that they were interested in was, was, was not off the shelf. But since that time, we got a chance, because we represent Canada in the International Energy Agency, task 43 on wind energy digitalization. And so one of the mandates there was to develop a robust and transparent tools for investment decision support using digital twins. And we had a German partner in Fraunhofer Institute that had developed nice digital twin that would provide us remaining useful life values for things like blades, you know, towers, foundations, etc, and those are, again, those are all costs that just plug into our but they did. They didn't have a framework of how to work that into an investment decision other than, you know, you may have to replace this in three years. Okay, well, that's good to know, but we need the whole picture to make that decision, and that's sort of what we were trying to bring so the short answer is, yes, we're getting a lot of interest now, which is thrilling for us, but it's, I'll be honest with you, it's not, it's not simple, like, you know, I I've talked about it a bunch of times, so I'm pretty good at talking about it, but, but the doing it is still, it's computationally intensive and in the end, it's still an estimate. It's a, it's a, it's a calculated, quantified estimate, but it's an estimate. I think what we like about it is it's better than saying, Well, I have a hunch that it's going to go this way, but we could get beat by the hunches too. Yeah, totally, right. So, so, you know, I'm not trying to sell people things that, like I we have to be transparent about it. It's still probability.   Trevor Freeman  37:35 Well, I think if there's, if there's one thing that is very apparent, as we are well into this energy transition process that we talk about all the time here on the show. It's that the pace of change is is one of the things that's like no other time we are we are seeing things change, and that means both our demand is growing, our need to identify solutions is growing the way that we need to build out the grid and utilize the ers and utilize all these different solutions is growing at a rate that we haven't seen before, and therefore uncertainty goes up. And so to your point, yeah, we need help to make these decisions. We need better ways of doing it than just, as you say, having a hunch. That doesn't mean it's foolproof. It doesn't mean it's a guarantee.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  38:27 Nope, it is not a guarantee.   Trevor Freeman  38:30 Very cool. So Rupp, this is a great conversation. It's really fascinating to talk about to me, two areas of the energy sector that aren't really understood that well. I think the agriculture side of things, not a lot of people think about that as a major demand source. But also wind, I think we talk about solar a lot. It's a little bit more ubiquitous. People's neighbors have solar on their roofs. But wind is this unless you drive through Southern Ontario or other parts of the province where there's a lot of wind, you don't see it a lot. So it's fascinating to kind of help understand where these sectors are going. Is there anything else that the Institute is working on that that's worth chatting about here, or is what we've talked about, you know, kind of filling your day, in your students days?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  39:15 Well, actually there is something we haven't talked about the nuclear option. Literally, literally the nuclear literally the nuclear option. Yeah, so we've been really thrilled to have a growing relationship with Canadian Nuclear Laboratories, which is much closer to you than it is to me. And specifically in the connection of small modular reactors to meet these growing agricultural loads. So I have a science colleague at the University of Windsor, Dr drew Marquart, who was all hot and bothered about these s. Mrs. And he's like, we should drop one of these SMRs in Leamington. Then I this, this part I really enjoyed, because it's obviously so he came from Oak Ridge National Laboratories in the States, and he's and he's been at CNL as well. So he's fully indoctrinated into the nuclear space. But it just didn't occur to him that that would be provocative or controversial at all, that there wouldn't be some social he, you know, he's like, we can do the math. And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, we can do the math. But I'm like, I think you're missing something. I think you're missing something, right? So, but so it's, it's a super fascinating topic, and we're trying to connect, physically connect. So just before the weekend, I was in the turbulence and Energy Lab, and we were trying to commission what we believe is North America's first we're calling it a model synthetic, small modular reactor, synthetic being the key word, and that it's non nuclear, okay? And so it's non nuclear. What it what it is really and if I'm going to de glamorize it for a second, it's a mini steam thermal power plant, which doesn't embody every SMR design, but many SMRs are designed around this sort of where you've got a nuclear reaction that provides the heat, and then after that, it's kind of a steam thermal power plant. Our interest is in this physical little plant being connected to small electrolyzer, being connected to small thermal battery, being connected to a lab scale electric battery and being connected to a lab scale fully automated inlet, cucumber, small cucumber, greenhouse, mini cubes greenhouse, all this in our lab. The exciting thing around this is, you know, I I've said that I think nuclear technology needs to get out from behind the walls of nuclear facilities for people to start to appreciate it, and by that, to start doing that, you have to take the nuclear part out, which, to me, is not necessarily a deal breaker in terms of these dynamic issues that we want to solve. You know, because nukes have traditionally been said, Well, you know they're not that. You know, you can't just ramp them up and down, and that's true, you know, and small modular reactors are supposed to be considerably more nimble, but there's still lots of challenges that have to be solved in terms of having how it is an asset that is provides copious energy, but does so maybe not, not as dynamic, certainly, as a gas turbine. That how does it? How do you make it nimble, right? How do you partner it up with the right complimentary other grid assets to take advantage of what it does so well, which is crank out great amounts of heat and electricity so, so effortlessly, right? And so that's, that's sort of what we're trying to do, and connecting it to what we're calling atomic agriculture. I don't know that's a good name or not. I like it, but, but, but, yeah, so that that's another thing that we're that we're flirting with right now. We're working on. We've done a few. We've had a few contracts with Canadian Nuclear Laboratories to get us this far. We did everything computationally. We're continuing to do computational studies with them. They develop their own hybrid energy systems, optimizer software, HISO, which we use, and we are now trying to put it into sort of the hardware space. So again, just the idea that physically looking at the inertia of spinning up a turbine, the little gap, the little sort of steam powered turbine that we have in the lab that's run by an electric boiler. But our hope is to, ultimately, we're going to get the electric boiler to be mimicking the sort of reaction heating dynamics of a true reactor. So by, but through electrical control. So we'll imitate that by having sort of data from nuclear reactions, and then we'll sort of get an electrical signal analog so that we can do that and basically have a non nuclear model, small modular reactor in the lab.   Trevor Freeman  44:14 Very cool, very neat. Well, Rupp, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate it. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions here, so I'm going to jump right into those. What's a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  44:31 I would say any of the Babysitters Club. That's as high as I get in the literary hierarchy. I'm barely literate so and I thoroughly enjoyed reading those books with my daughters that they were great. So I recommend any, any of the Babysitters Club titles. I mean that completely seriously, I that was the peak of my that are dog man, yeah,   Trevor Freeman  44:56 I'm about six months removed from what i. Was about an 18 month run where that's, that's all I read with my youngest kiddo. So they've, they've just moved on to a few other things. But yes, I've been steeped in the Babysitter's Club very recently.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  45:11 So good. So, you know, absolutely.   Trevor Freeman  45:14 So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's something that you recommend?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  45:17 Everyone thrilled with that question. If you're looking for a good, good true story. I've always been romantically obsessed with the ghost in the darkness, the true story of, I guess, a civil engineer trying to solve a problem of man eating lions and Tsavo. That's a, that's a, that's a tremendous movie with Val Kilmer and Michael Douglas. Yeah, that's good then, and I think for something a little more light hearted and fun, a big fan of the way, way back and youth and revolt, nice.   Trevor Freeman  46:03 If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  46:05 I don't really like flying, I got to be honest. But if, if I was forced onto the plane, I think, I think I go to Japan. Nice. Have you been before? No, I haven't. I'd like to go. Okay, cool. You're not the first guest that has said that someone else was very That's understandable. Yeah, who is someone that you admire? I would say truly selfless people that help people when no one's looking and when it's not being tabulated for likes those people are who I aspire to be more like nice.   Trevor Freeman  46:47 And last question, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?   Dr Rupp Carriveau  46:53 I think maybe power to the people I really like, the movement of distributed energy resources. I'm sure there's a limit to it, but I think, I think if we have more responsibility for our own power production, and again, I can see there are limits where it's probably, you know, there's, there's a point where it's too much. I'm all for, for major centralized coordination and the security in the reliability that goes with that. But I think a little bit more on the distributed side would be nice, because I think people would understand energy better. They would they would own it more, and I think our grid would probably increase in its resiliency.   Trevor Freeman  47:37 Yeah, that's definitely something that no matter the topic, it seems, is a part of almost every conversation I have here on the show. It works its way in, and I think that's indicative of the fundamental role that decentralizing our energy production and storage is is already playing and is going to play in the years to come as we kind of tackle this energy transition drove this has been a really great conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us, and that's great to catch up. Great to chat with you again.   Dr Rupp Carriveau  48:11 Total privilege for me. Trevor, I really appreciate it. Outstanding job.   Trevor Freeman  48:15 Thanks for having me. Yeah, great to chat. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast, don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].  

Rooftop solar. Backup batteries. Smart EV chargers. Distributed energy resources (DERs) are changing the way electricity is generated, managed, and used in Ontario. In this thinkenergy short, Trevor Freeman breaks down how DERs can reduce your carbon footprint, provide backup power during outages, and help you manage your energy costs. Listen in for how net metering, load displacement, and evolving tech partnerships are reshaping the future of the grid and giving you more control over your energy.   Related links   Breaking down Distributed Energy Resources, with Hydro Ottawa’s Trevor Freeman (thinkenergy episode 146): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/breaking-down-distributed-energy-resources-with-hydro-ottawas-trevor-freeman/     Consumer impact: revisiting grid modernization with Capgemini Canada (thinkenergy episode 162): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/consumer-impact-revisiting-grid-modernization-with-capgemini-canada/     Save on Energy programs: https://saveonenergy.ca/en/For-Business-and-Industry/Programs-and-incentives/Retrofit-Program     Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114    Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en      To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod - Transcript: Welcome to a think energy short hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back. Today on think energy, I'm going to talk about distributed energy resources, or DERs. Now, if you've been listening to the show for a long time or even a short time, you will have heard us talk about DERs many times before, and for good reason. DERs are an important and growing part of our energy lives. About a year ago, I did an episode diving into what DERs are, and I encourage you to go back and listen to that one. But today I thought I do a quick refresh and talk about some of the most common ways that DERs are used. So, let's dive right in. First the refresh.  DERs or distributed energy resources, are simply pieces of equipment that can generate or store power, generally on the smaller scale size of things, and spread throughout the grid. So, we're not talking about large scale, centralized generation plants here, but that small to medium scale, kind of think rooftop solar or batteries that are sized for home or facility use. And generally, when we're talking about DERs, we're focused on renewable technology like solar panels or batteries, and in some cases, you know, smaller wind turbines. For the most part on this show, that's what we're focused on. However, there are sort of non-renewable DERs as well, and we'll actually touch on that a little bit later. So, let's dive into what some of the reasons are why someone would want a der there's a couple of different reasons. The first is for backup during an outage. So, using solar panels, especially if paired with a battery, can give you some backup if there's an outage from the grid, whether that's a storm or an accident or something like that, that backup power can be focused on your key devices or systems or appliances, or if your storage is big enough, or your system is big enough, it may be used to power your whole home for a period of Time. Of course, if you're using one of those nonrenewable sources that I mentioned, like a fossil fuel power generator, for example, then your backup supply can last longer, really, as long as you've got fuel, but it's not clean, so you will be producing carbon emissions. One emerging technology that we'll likely see more of in the future is using an electric vehicle for this purpose. So, while there's only a few different models that allow this right now, the Ford f1 50 is one of them, and there are some safety and regulatory considerations before you go ahead and do this, we can expect to see more of this in the future as the technology advances and it becomes a bit more widespread. Another reason for DERs is financial. Installing a der can actually help you save money every month, whether that's just by reducing what you consume from the grid or by pushing back unused generation to the grid for credits. And I'll touch on this a little bit more shortly. Finally, if we're talking about those renewable DERs, they produce clean energy. So that's carbon, free emissions, free energy. And if you are concerned about your carbon footprint, you're trying to decarbonize and reduce the amount of emissions that you cause. DERs, renewable DERs are a great way to do that. You can lower your carbon footprint by reducing how much you draw from the electricity grid and any carbon emissions that are associated with that. Okay, so let's go back to the financial use case for a minute and talk about the different ways that that's possible. I'll be speaking about the Ontario context here. So, if you're listening from outside of Ontario, you'll have to do a little bit of your own research to figure out what options exist where you live. One option to set up your der for financial reasons is net metering, which I kind of alluded to earlier. Net metering is a setup for renewable generation sources only that allows you to use as much of your generation as you can to power your home when you're using it, and then push back whatever you don't use to the grid. Whatever you push back to the grid, will give you a credit on your bill that you can use to offset the electricity charge portion of your bill. Another option would be load displacement. With this arrangement, you can generate electricity exclusively for your own use, so you will reduce the amount that you pull from the grid, and that will save you money, but you don't push anything back to the grid, and therefore you don't earn any credits. And finally, there are standalone generation setups. This arrangement involves pushing all of your generation back to the grid for some agreed upon compensation. While there used to be programs for small scale standalone generation so you might be familiar and on. Ontario with the fit or the MicroFit programs that existed about 10 years ago. These programs are closed today, and generally only large generators have a standalone arrangement. Now, like any technology, DERs are not free to install. In fact, they can be quite pricey in some cases, but because they provide benefit to the grid. There are incentive programs out there to help reduce the upfront costs. Here in Ontario, the ISOs save on energy programs provide an incentive to any customer type, from residential all the way up to large commercial to install rooftop solar, and homeowners can access additional funding to install the battery along with their solar. If you're interested in doing this, or you want to learn a little bit more, you can reach out to your LDC, visit our website. If you're in hydro Ottawa's territory, or visit save on energy.ca. In the near future, you will also likely see more utilities wanting to partner with der owners. I talked about this a little bit in my last episode with Andrea Nusser About grid modernization here at hydro Ottawa, we are working on a technology project that will be launched next year that will enable der owners to leverage their devices for an incentive to help manage the grid in targeted areas. It's pretty exciting stuff, and it's really the next wave of distributed energy resources on our grid and how we're going to interact with them. It's pretty exciting. So, there you have it. That's a quick summary of the different ways that DERs are used. If you're looking at installing a der in your home, whether that's solar or battery or anything else, or for your business for that matter, have a look at our website. Make sure you fill out the application forms and reach out to us so that we can help get you set up and get you using your der thanks for tuning in to another think energy short and look forward to chatting with you next time. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].  

Grid modernization goes beyond smart meters. It’s making the grid more responsive, customer-focused, and resilient. Andrea Nuesser, Grid Modernization Leader at Capgemini Canada, joins thinkenergy to explain how smart tech, real-time data, and evolving customer relationships are changing how electricity is delivered, managed, and consumed. From account numbers to engaged consumers, electric vehicles to home energy, listen in to learn how the grid of the future will shape how you consume energy. Related links IESO Peaks Perks Program: https://saveonenergy.ca/en/For-Your-Home/Peak-Perks  Dr. Andrea Newer on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-andrea-nuesser-201147188/  Capgemini: https://www.capgemini.com/ca-en/  Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod

Fire bans. Blackouts. Heat waves. Extreme weather is hitting harder and more often. Plus, Canada’s electricity demand is soaring. In thinkenergy episode 161, host Trevor Freeman breaks down how utilities plan for grid resilience, from upgrading local infrastructure to planning a national east-west grid. He also explores how customer demand response can help prevent outages. Learn how climate and consumption are reshaping our energy systems and what’s being done to keep the lights on through extreme weather.   Related links   Electrifying Canada’s remote communities with QUEST Canada (thinkenergy episode 143): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/electrifying-canadas-remote-communities-with-quest-canada/ Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405    To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl    To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com  --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited    Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa    Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod  --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:07 Welcome to a thinkenergy short, hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector, and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back to thinkenergy. I hope you all had a great summer at equal parts restful and exciting. Certainly, we had a great summer here. It was good to take a bit of a step back and think about all the exciting topics that we have to talk to you about coming up over the course of the next season of the think energy podcast. And it's nice to be back here behind the microphone. I'm recording this just at the tail end of summer, the kind of end of August, and looking forward to getting into lots of good content this year. Today, we're going to start off our season with a look at the impact of extreme weather on our grid, as our grid is already under pressure from growing electricity demand. So it's a bit of a look at what utilities are doing in the face of that pressure. So this will be a think energy short, and we'll bring you our guest episode the next time around. So let's dive right in then. What does extreme weather mean for Canada's electricity infrastructure, and should we be worried about its ability to handle that extreme weather? This is kind of top of mind right now. We're at the tail end of summer. It's been a pretty hot and dry summer, at least where I am. Incidentally, I'm about to head into Algonquin Park for a backcountry camping trip, and there's a fire bed on and that's not unheard of in Algonquin Park and in many parts of the country, but this late in the season, it's pretty rare. I think this might actually be the first time that we've had a fire ban so late in the season that I can remember that I've been camping on and I go pretty frequently. So that'll be a little bit unique. And so yeah, a hot, dry summer is certainly one of those things we think of when we think about the changing weather patterns. But this is also top of mind because Rukshar Ali, who's a journalist with CTV, has been exploring, you know, the weak points in Canada's electricity grids, and has been writing about what impact extreme weather might have on those grids. So at a very high level, Canada's power grids as they are built today and in the past, as they have been built. So at a high level, Canada's power grids, as we've been building them for the last 100 years or so, need improvements in order to be able to withstand the frequent extreme weather and growing demand for electricity that we're having. That's not anything new, we talk about that often, how we need to invest in our grid for both reliability as well as expansion and the growing electrification of our society. Climate change is here, extreme weather is here, and those things are adding strain to our grid at the same time that demand is increasing and the grid is is redundant in many aspects. If we lose one component, then we can continue on and serve parts of our customer base from other sections. But extreme weather events are likely to knock out several aspects of the grid at once, and we need to improve in order to be able to withstand that. To give you a sense of the magnitude of the issue, the North American Electric Liability Corporation predicts that within the next decade, half of North America will be at risk for a significant blackout. So let's talk a little bit about why extreme weather as we know as the as the globe warms up from climate change, the frequency and magnitude of weather events increases, so we'll see more extreme weather events, and those extreme weather events will be more extreme, to reuse that word, and we're already seeing this. So last year, for example, severe weather caused 1000 outages in Nova Scotia, between 2013 and 2023 if we look across the entire country, there were around 10 extreme weather events that caused nearly 20 million customers to lose power across Canada. And eight of those 10 extreme weather events occurred in the five year period between 2018 and 2023 so that the frequency of these very significant, very extreme weather events, is definitely growing up. This is all happening at the same time that the country's electricity demand is also increasing and placing pressure on our infrastructure. So we know that usage is going to grow with electrification. We've talked about that a lot here and here in Ontario, the Independent Electricity System Operator, is projecting that consumption will increase by 75% by the year 2050, which is a significant jump up. And so as demand is increasing, we're also seeing that pressure on the grid from that and extreme weather kind of exacerbates that problem too. So extreme heat waves cause people to use their air conditioners more frequently and for longer, and that puts greater demand on the grid as well. So in July of 2023 you might recall this extreme kind of heat period in British Columbia out on the West Coast, and there's the heat dome, and that period saw the province use about 8% more electricity on average, than the previous kind of six year July average. So there is a significant increase from that one single heat event. So what do we do about this? How do we act in the face of increased extreme weather and electrification. Well, first off, we definitely need to update our infrastructure. And utility companies across the country and indeed across North America know this and have already started to do this here in hydro Ottawa's territory, for example, as I've talked about before, hydro Ottawa has a five year investment plan covering the 2026 to 2030 period, which is the largest investment plan in our company's history, and it carries a significant amount of investment in grid reliability, grid modernization, improving and expanding our infrastructure for just these challenges, so for the extreme weather and increased electricity demand across Our grid, if you zoom out a little bit and other parts of the country, the East Coast, for example, Nova Scotia Power recently finished a pole replacement project that saw a significant number of poles being replaced, and they're now moving into a Smart Grid Initiative, which is similar to grid modernization that I've talked about Here on the show in the past, which also addresses utilization of the grid, as well as ability to react during an outage on a bigger scale across the entire country, the federal government has promised to look at an east, west electricity grid, which would help connect more Canadians to more affordable and reliable power. And obviously, new construction would be focused on being able to withstand extreme weather as well as bring on more electricity demand as part of electrification. We've talked here in the past on the show, and the CTV journalist Ali points out that the current grid system makes it a lot easier for provinces to transfer electricity to the United States. It's kind of that north south flow of electricity is a lot easier than an East West flow of electricity. So trading between provinces today is difficult, and that's why there's a push for a national grid, an East West grid, that would make it a lot easier for Canadians to share electricity amongst each other. This would also have the benefit of helping connect more rural and remote communities. So I draw your attention back to a podcast episode I did with quest Canada, where we talked about some of those more remote communities and how a lot of them are not connected to a reliable grid. So there's a lot of work that can be done to really shore up how we connect across the country to the different areas, especially with a major east west grid. And of course, this is supported during this kind of, you know, a little bit tumultuous political climate that we have as we're reevaluating trading relationships with the United States, with other countries, it's important that we really focus on, how do we make sure things flow very well within our own borders? Beyond just the transmission and the grid upgrades that we need to do, we also need to look at diversifying our supply of electricity. So here in Canada, we use a lot of hydro generation, but extreme weather that causes droughts put that at risk. And so low water levels can impact electrical production, and we need to be prepared to have alternative sources as well. We still need to focus on making sure those sources are renewable. So really looking at expanding wind, solar, nuclear energy in some cases, as well as building out other hydro electric generation resources, is really important to have a good diversified mix. And on top of all that, we also need to continue looking at, how can we lower our energy consumption, especially during those peak times, especially when the grid is under stress at certain times of the day or from certain weather events. And we've seen that this can work. So in January 2024 the Alberta electric system operator, or IESO, issued an alert. It was a cold weather alert asking customers to reduce their electricity use during an extremely cold period in that province. And. And shortly after that, there was a 200 megawatt drop in electricity demand, which really helped the province avoid a series of rolling outages and avoid some real challenges on the grid. So it does work when customers are asked to alter their behavior in, you know, hopefully, small and subtle ways to manage grid peaks, and that's a really huge tool that we have. And we've talked before on the show about the role of managing peak times on the grid and being able to shift some of that usage to other times to avoid over stressing the assets that we have. That's going to be a really important strategy as we face increasing demand and extreme weather outages to make sure we're not over stressing the grid. So to sum that all up, extreme weather is going to impact our grid, and utilities do need to be aware of that and plan for how to build a grid that is more resilient and more reliable in the face of that increasing extreme weather. The good news is that utility companies know this and are already moving in that direction, and hydro Ottawa is a good example of that, of really focusing on building out reliability on its grid with some of the investment plans that we have put forward, and that extends all the way up to the federal level as well, where our federal leadership is looking at, how do we plan a EAST, WEST grid, really build out that provincial grid, and while we do that, a continued focus on energy efficiency and reducing electricity demand during peak times, and the various tools that we have to do that. So yes, extreme weather is coming, but there's a plan of how to deal with that. So thanks for tuning in today. It's really great to be back here behind the microphone and chatting with you all. Our next episode is another look at grid modernization, but this time through a customer lens, and really, what does grid modernization mean for customers? So stay tuned and join us in two weeks for our next episode. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected], you.

Summer rewind: Hydro Ottawa recently unveiled its largest investment plan ever, with a five-year focus on modernizing and strengthening the grid. The way we’re consuming energy is changing, and this investment plan focuses on four key areas that highlight why Hydro Ottawa is taking action, and how they plan on doing it.   Hydro Ottawa’s Chief Operating Officer, Guillaume Paradis, joins thinkenergy to dive a little deeper into those focus areas, and why they matter, with host Trevor Freeman.   Related links   ●       Guillaume Paradis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721 ●       Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 ●       Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en    To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa -- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.   Trevor Freeman  00:55 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydroottawa.com.   Trevor Freeman  01:19 hi everyone, and welcome back. A few episodes back I talked about some of the important work that happens at the distribution level to maintain and expand our grid, and I tried to connect the dots between that work and the broader societal energy transition that is happening at all levels. How the work we do at the distribution level is really important and tied to some of those larger projects that may get a little bit more news and attention that energy transition, which, as you're hopefully aware by now, is ongoing right now. It's not something of the future. It's happening today. That energy transition is multifaceted, but from an electricity and electrification perspective, the distribution utility, ie the Hydro Ottawa, of whatever jurisdiction you're in, is at the very leading edge of many of the changes we need to see within our electricity system to support that transition. So today, I'd like to go a little bit further with that topic and focus on Hydro Ottawa's next five year investment plan, which covers the 2026 to 2030 period. This will be the largest investment plan in our history as a company. And I wanted to dig into what we have identified as key focus areas for investment in the coming five years, with more than 100 years of operating a large, complex distribution network, Hydro Ottawa is embarking on a pretty significant journey to modernize and strengthen our grid for the challenges and opportunities ahead of us. We have filed our 2026, to 2030, Electricity Distribution rate application, as it's called, with the Ontario Energy Board, and this is a standard practice for all local distribution companies in Ontario. That's what we have to do. As a reminder for our listeners, the Ontario Energy Board, or OEB, as we often call it, is our independent regulator. Their mission in this process is to strike a balance between ensuring the financial health and operational needs of utilities like Hydro Ottawa, while also safeguarding the affordability and reliability of the service for the customer. So they want to make sure that we're spending enough to tackle the right projects on the grid, to make sure it stays operational while not spending too much. They meticulously scrutinize every detail of these applications to ensure that the proposed rates are just and reasonable, and that all investments are prudent and really in the public interest. So we have gotten a number of questions about the plan and specifically around where is the money going to go? What are you going to actually spend these dollars that you're requesting on? And why are these investments necessary? What benefits are they actually going to bring to our community? And often we get the question of, does this mean less outages or shorter outages? So I want to dig into that. I want to talk a little bit about what we've got planned and what the impact will be, and what the impact would be if we don't do those things, and to help me walk through that energy roadmap, that plan that we've put together. I've got Guillaume Paradis joining me today. Guillaume is the Chief Operating Officer of generation and distribution here at Hydro Ottawa, and he's going to join me, and we're going to talk through this. Guillaume and his teams are responsible for the planning, design, operation, construction and maintenance of our electrical power distribution system, and in his role, he leads the teams that are directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient and reliable delivery of electricity to our customers. Today, I'm going to ask Guillaume, really, to walk us through the details of. Our investment plan, how it was shaped, how we came up with these specific areas, and what benefits are going to be realized by our community and the broader energy landscape. Guillaume, Paradis, welcome to the show. Pleasure to be here. Trevor, okay, so, Guillaume, this is Hydro Ottawa's largest investment plan ever, and I'd like you to start by talking us through the primary drivers behind what our five year investment plan is.   Guillaume Paradis  05:29 Yeah, so as you've heard, as you've seen, we're in a historical, or historically, you know, unique point in the evolution of our industry. Electricity underpins most of our societal aspirations with respect to creating, you know, a more sustainable future, creating the future we want to leave for the next generations. And our distribution system underpins a lot of those aspirations in simple ways and in more complex ways. So, you know, a simple way is that essentially, for, you know, the well being of our society, for our customers, the residents of Ottawa, and really any area, to live the lives they're hoping to live, to, you know, enjoy the benefits of modern life. Electricity is a critical underpinning in any way you can imagine and you know, think about so. Our service has always been very important. It's just become even more critical as a foundational block for you know, the lives that we're hoping to live and we're living today in our modern society. So that, combined with other aspirations related to where we can reducing our carbon footprint and integrating more renewable energy resources within our footprint, it creates a situation where there's a significant need for us to invest, continue to invest and reinvest in our infrastructure to deliver those outcomes for customers.   Trevor Freeman  07:16 Yeah, I think, I mean, we talk a lot about the energy transition on the show, and if, if you think about, you know, let's say our previous rate application five years ago, the energy transition was a thing we knew about it, but it was like a thing of tomorrow where, hey, that's going to come soon. The difference now, I assume, and maybe you can speak to this, is we're seeing that. We're seeing the change now.   Guillaume Paradis  07:40 Yeha, you're exactly correct, like we're in it now. So we've been talking about it for some time, both from a like a general societal aspiration standpoint, but also from a technological standpoint. For a very long time, we talked about electric vehicles having an impact and becoming more commonplace. We talked about leveraging automation to deliver our services. We talked about two way power flows. So we've been building toward this moment, and now we're essentially in it, if you will, and we're seeing all those things, the confluence of all those longer term trends, sort of manifest themselves in real demand for our system, in real changes in our customers want to use energy, and we're in the middle of that, and we're, you know, to enable those things happening in our community here in Ottawa.   Trevor Freeman  08:36 Yeah. So it's like the business as usual, a lot of the same things, and we're going to talk about some of this. About some of the specifics, but a lot of the same thing, things we would normally do just a lot more of at the same time, as like also pivoting a little bit to meet some of these new needs, like charging transportation and like heating our spaces, more of electricity, like some of these new needs that didn't exist are not to the same extent. So it's like more of the same plus other new stuff, and we're gonna talk about that in a minute.   Guillaume Paradis  09:11 Yeah. So, you know, we always would say that the future of the energy sector was very exciting, and things were coming and like, change was upon us, and now, essentially, we're, we're living it, right? So you have to carry on with the responsibilities that you always had, and meanwhile, figure out how to deliver those new outcomes, those new services that previously weren't required or expected, right?   Trevor Freeman  09:39 So let's, let's kind of get into some of the details here. So there are four key capital investment categories in this plan, so growth and electrification, aging, infrastructure, grid modernization and grid resilience. So we're going to dive into the specifics of these in a minute, but we're. To start off with why these four? How did we land on these four as the main categories?   Guillaume Paradis  10:07 Yeah, so there's, there's various ways you can categorize investments. There's a lot of drivers that will lead us to invest in an area or replace some infrastructure somewhere in our system, these categories capture quite well. What is at the core of various investments. So for one specific investment, there will be multiple drivers, but these ones sort of in an elegant way, I would say, capture. You know why investments are occurring, what the primary driver is for those investments, and they help translate that for folks who are not involved day to day in planning the electricity system, that's our responsibility. What we're trying to communicate is why we're taking action where we're taking action. So those categories, in my mind, capture that really well. They also tie our investments to broad trends that people should be aware of, and they're a way to make sure that we have, you know, a clear baseline for a conversation as we proceed with those plans.   Trevor Freeman  11:18 Yeah, one thing I find, and you know, in my role, I talk to customers a lot, and I find these are fairly easy to explain, or at least, I hope they are, if you're listening and you disagree, let us know. But people can kind of get their heads around why the utility needs to do each of these four things, and some, in some ways, they align with other sectors as well. So I think, and I hope, as we carry on our conversation here, it'll be easy to sort of build out the picture of what we're doing in each of those four areas. So why don't we? Let's dive right in then and look at the specifics. And starting with growth and electrification, what are the specific investments that are planned to support the growing energy needs of our community, you know. And we've already started talking about electric vehicles, other electrified aspects of our lives, like, what? What falls into this category?   Guillaume Paradis  12:11 Yeah, so with respect to growth and electrification, um, there's a few underlying trends that drive the investment requirements. So as you've suggested, as you mentioned, you know, there's an evolution of how our customers use energy at home, day to day. EVS being obviously a primary example that everyone will be very aware of. Just, you know, driving around town, frankly, the difference in how regularly you'll see electric vehicles in our community relative to even five years ago is is pretty dramatic, and that is having a long term, you know, impact over time, likewise for technologies like heat pumps at home, and just generally, the growth of our community. So those elements just drive a longer-term trend of more demand being present in our community, within our system. And in addition to that, one big change that we've seen over the last few years is more large scale demand request coming into our service territory, typically, that will be large customers wanting to do something different with energy. So it could go. It could be driven by a few different kinds of corporate aspirations. What we're seeing a lot of are instances where large corporations decide, or institutions decide, to do away with more carbon intensive energy sources, so they will look to us and electricity to replace what previously would have been another fuel source that maybe is less green. So we're seeing that affecting choices some of those type of customers are making, and then at the same time, we're seeing just large requests related to a different type of energy demand. So companies wanting to, for example, bring back their R and D efforts to a data center that they operate and they control, so that they have more control over cybersecurity elements, and then, likewise, with where their data flows to and how it's being managed. So we're seeing large requests at a rate that we didn't previously, and that those requests are significant enough that they require us to make very major investments, like new substations, like building a. New feeders again at a pace that far outpaces what we've seen historically. So the underlying trend of more small demand creating an impact at the aggregate level, combined with those larger requests, that's creating a significant need for us to invest in responding to that growth in the electrification drivers within our system.   Trevor Freeman  15:29 Yeah, so this is in response to what we're seeing our customers do. And that's it's something that has come up before in conversation here. Of you know, we we respond to what we see our customers doing and what our customers are asking us. They're asking for more power. We have to respond to provide that more power. So this, this kind of area of investment, is really just building out the grid and all of the assets and infrastructure that are that make up the grid to be able to meet the needs of our customers, which are growing faster than they were previously? Is that fair to say?   Guillaume Paradis  16:05 Yeah, and for us, it's an interesting balancing act we have to find where we have to anticipate our customers’ needs and the demand that's upon us, but we can't get ahead of it, because that would draw investments that potentially would, you know, later become stranded, or, you know, create a cost burden for our customers. So we have to know where the demand is going, and we have to be ready to respond and connect new customers, but we can't get too far ahead of it, because ultimately, you know, if we invest too soon, that's, you know, a burden for all our customers. So sometimes I, I would say there's that misconception that somehow, we're, we're creating our own forecast and believing our own forecast. And really, it's a bit simpler than that, we take in the request and we respond to those requests. We have to be able to look out a few years to make sure that we're not missing, you know, anything significant that would have an impact on our system, but we don't get too far ahead from an investment standpoint.   Trevor Freeman  17:19 Okay, so Guillaume, we've been talking about the more traditional aspects of our grid, you know, pulls, wires, transformers, et cetera. But I know that we're also looking at how we can deploy what we call non wire solutions to also help manage capacity on our grid. Can you just explain what some of these solutions are and how we're going to use them in conjunction with our traditional assets to manage grid needs.   Guillaume Paradis  17:43 Yeah, so normal alternatives are essentially the concept that without having to install traditional infrastructure, think poles, new Transformers, new cables, underground, you may be able to harvest existing resources within your footprint to help you manage operational needs. Be it like certain peaks that have a short duration, other scenarios of constraints where, rather than building net new infrastructure, which is expensive and time consuming, you might be able to optimize I'll call it the use of embedded resources in a manner that actually meets your operational objectives. So the way you would do that is by using combination of resources. Typically, you would look at small scale embedded storage. So if it exists in the system, you would actually leverage it if, if you could, otherwise, you might install some in a very targeted manner that helps you meet those operational needs. And then otherwise, you would leverage customer resources. So that's either existing generation that is owned by customers, or which is more typical, you know their ability to adjust their demand at certain times to meet your operational constraints. So the idea there is that you can do a business case, you can do an evaluation of what it would take to engage all these resources to get the same operational outcome as you would if you build the new infrastructure, and compare the two on a cost basis. And actually, in some instances, see scenarios where those non wire alternatives actually beat out large scale infrastructure upgrades from a financial standpoint. So it's, it's an evolving area. We have a few pockets within the city that we're targeting for programs like those ones, and we expect, over time, as more embedded resources proliferate, as more customer devices become controllable, we'll have a great. Greater opportunity, in fact, to leverage those non wire alternatives, or those non traditional solutions to meet our operational requirements.   Trevor Freeman  20:08 Great. So this is a combination of you know, Hydro Ottawa is planning to invest in in some assets, you know, be they battery or otherwise, on our side of the meter. We call that in front of the meter to help manage grid needs, while also looking for opportunities to partner with customers you know in the aggregate, so you know 100 or 1000 customers at once, to say if we need to call on your devices to either inject into the grid or to ramp back your operations, that will help us manage grid needs while the customer still maintains control. Is that fair to say?   Guillaume Paradis  20:47 Yeah, that's fair, and that's an emerging capacity we have. So if our ability to control and call upon a very large number of small devices and customer devices has grown and is growing and will be over the next few years. And with that, our capacity to then draw from those resources to respond to operational circumstances is also increasing and will give us options we just wouldn't have had in the past. So it's just a better way of utilizing available energy resources a more refined way, and one that probably wasn't available to us at scale 10 years ago.   Trevor Freeman  21:29 Yeah, and the driver behind all this is what's the best, most cost effective way to address that grid need? Some cases it's going to be the poles and wires and transformers. In some cases, it's going to be these non wire solutions, and it's part of the planning of the grid to identify where does each technology make sense.   Guillaume Paradis  21:50 Absolutely. So again, it's a more refined way of assessing options and ensuring that we identify the most cost effective strategies possible.   Trevor Freeman  22:02 Perfect, great. Okay, so that's the growth and electrification section. Let's move to aging infrastructure, which is about a third of this investment plan. So this may seem like a softball to start with, but what are some of the challenges posed by aging infrastructure? Maybe talk to us a little bit about what that infrastructure is when it comes to utility grid, and then what are what are we doing with this investment plan to address that aging infrastructure?   Guillaume Paradis  22:31 Yeah, so aging infrastructure is a very clear and appropriate descriptor here. So we invest in assets that are long lived, think 5060, years plus in some instances, and you know, eventually you use them, you leverage them over, you know, many decades. And at some point, those assets deteriorate beyond a point where they're no longer able to provide the service that our customers expect. So that would be failures, which leads to reliability issues in parts of our system. So one at one point or another in the life cycle of those assets, depending on how they're being used, what environment they are operated in, you have to replace them. What we try to do is assess them on a risk basis. And when we say risk, we mean, what impact can they have on our customers if they were to fail? Impacts can be things like safety risk. It could be, of course, reliability issues. It could limit our ability to service our customers. And so we assess risk on an ongoing basis, looking at those assets over decades. And eventually we get to a point where the risk has to be addressed, and that typically takes the form of or it can take the form of an outright replacement through the life cycle of all those assets, all of our assets. We do maintenance, we inspect them, we try to see if there are other things we can do before we replace them. But you get to a point ultimately, where the only option that's viable is to actually replace and then you have to go in and take action, physically in the field. Now what becomes a little complicated is, as you can imagine, it's one thing to put infrastructure up when a field being converted to a subdivision, or the city's growing and it's all brand new. You know, infrastructure being developed to support the growth, but decades later, when you come back, 60-70, years plus, in some cases, you're in someone's backyard. You're in the middle of an intersection where multiple utilities have installed their own infrastructure. So you have to coordinate that things have been moved over time. So getting access to the infrastructure is more difficult. Difficult, and so replacing many decades later is a lot more involved than putting up new infrastructure in the first place, and the type of infrastructure that we're talking about here probably falls into three major categories. So there's the overhead infrastructure you see around town. So really, when you and you shouldn't do that while you're driving, but if you're walking ideally, and you're looking at the beautiful hydro infrastructure around Ottawa, what you'll see are very old poles that need attention. So that's very visible, right? We have wood poles, you know, in a lot of the areas of our city, and you get to a point where structurally, they're not as strong as they used to be. They've weathered many storms, and they need attention. And then otherwise, it's the Transformers you might see on those poles. And that would be the boxes that are hanging from the poles, the ones that look like they, you know, predate the Cold War are the ones we're going after, and we need to give some attention to today. And then on the underground side, similar infrastructure, it's cables in in the ground, so in some instances, it's buried directly in someone's backyard. That was a an approach people took many decades back. Now, you can imagine it's very convenient when you're building it, but not so much when you're trying to get it out of the ground and put new cables into the ground. So there's cables that need replacing. They've, you know, been damaged or creating reliability issues. The transformers that go with that as well might need attention. And again, as I mentioned before, you know, decades later, that transformer may be right behind someone's pool in their backyard, and they've done some real nice landscaping, and accessing it for a replacement is a lot more complicated. So underground infrastructure, in fact, is one of the more complicated replacements to execute. And then, you know, if you move up from there, you're looking at substation equipment. So that's the stuff that's fenced in across the city where power is being delivered from to our customers across the city. And so those assets may be a bit less complicated in terms of managing sites and access, but certainly complicated in terms of logistics costs of the equipment. Those are very, very large assets that require a lot of planning to replace, because they're critical to our system, and we can't afford to have them be out of service too long.   Trevor Freeman  27:49 Got you and just for our listeners, while Guillaume talking, I pulled up a few quick stats here. So we, Hydro Ottawa on our service territory, has over 6000 kilometers of conductor so of wires and just under 50,000 poles out in our service territory. So as you can imagine, a lot of that is in great shape, and some of it isn't, and some of it needs to be addressed, just like you're talking about here Guillaume.   Guillaume Paradis  28:17 Yeah, and that's helpful. Trevor. The thing that we often forget, especially for electricity distribution, is the sheer number of assets that can create a risk. So it's one thing to manage one large transformer and make sure it doesn't fail, but when you're talking about 1000s of assets dispersed around a very large service territory like Ottawa, making sure that we keep an eye on all of them at all times, making sure that we intervene at the exact time prior to a failure, to make sure we deliver the best service possible for our customers. That's really the essence of our challenge and what makes distribution unique versus other parts of our business, where it's maybe more centralized and you may be looking at a smaller set of assets.   Trevor Freeman  29:04 Yeah, absolutely okay, so obviously, it's important to maintain what we've got, in addition to building out that new stuff that we talked about earlier, maintaining and replacing what we have, so that you know our existing grid remains reliable. The next section of our investment plan is what we call grid modernization. Now that's something that we've talked about to varying levels of detail on this show before, but I'd like you to talk us through what is in this investment plan over the next five years. When we talk about grid modernization, what are we actually doing? What are some of the specific things that we're gonna put some of our investment towards?   Guillaume Paradis  29:45 Yeah, so grid monetization is, is a category that gets talked about a lot, but maybe is, I would say, a bit misunderstood, I think, because it sounds futuristic, people assume we're doing a. And very different things. And ultimately, in my mind, it's better leveraging technology to get good outcomes for our customers. It's really that simple. So as you can imagine, you know, as I talked about, we're looking at assets that have expected life of 50- 60-70, years when some of our assets were first installed, things like communication technology, things like IT, operational technology, weren't as advanced as they are today. Our ability to collect data in real time was not what it is today, and so nada we're we have an opportunity to reinvest and replace all assets. It's important that we do so in a manner that will allow us to drive essentially more performance or better performance out of the assets we put in our system, so that can take various forms. As I mentioned, getting better real time information is one of those ways in which we can leverage technology, what that allows us to do is better respond to outages, offer a better service by being more aware of what's happening at any given point in time, getting better information in near real time as to what assets are posing a risk to reliability because they've been utilized heavily, or they've seen a lot of faults, for example. And so building in that technological infrastructure as a layer that enhances the traditional investments that we've always made is sort of the right thing to do in a context where you want to optimize where you spend your dollars, and you don't want to have to go back and reinvest on the same assets or in the same parts of our system multiple times, uh, over, you know, the coming years, in the coming decades. So the grid monetization portfolio, essentially is our opportunity to, you know, very strategically, identify where we can put in technology that will allow us to get more of our assets and provide a better service for our customers. So simple things like automated devices that would be automated switches that we install on our overhead infrastructure, underground infrastructure that gives us a capacity during an outage to shift demand around and resupply our customers more rapidly than we would have been able to otherwise, and that gives us a capacity to provide a better service under contingency scenario. So very simple, right? It's telemetry. It's communication to a device. And rather than have someone physically go in the field and, you know, switch customers and try to move demand around, we can do that remotely from our control center, likewise, in the control center, putting in more telemetry to identify and proactively suggest to our operators how to restore power to customers. Again, is a simple thing in by today's standard, right? It's not competent technology. It's not complicated software, but it's a layer that didn't exist previously, where we can have software, you know, model based. Its tool suggest how best to optimize the restoration of power. And as we do that, our trade operators get to review and take action in an informed manner. So grid, modernization, again, is about making the most of today's available technology while we reinvest in our distribution system to make sure that the quality of our service, and the breadth of the services we can provide align, well, going forward, with our customers aspirations, and provide a quality service for many decades to come.   Trevor Freeman  34:15 Yeah, and I think it's important to remember, and you know this, this little saying has been out there in the industry, and I've used it before. Of the electricity grid is the world's largest machine. Like the grid itself is a piece of technology, and like any technology, we would not be happy if it stayed stagnant, like we want it to evolve with the latest and greatest and operate better and more efficiently, and the grid is no different, and so part of grid modernization is just keeping up with what's out there to make sure we are delivering the service that we deliver in the best way, in the most advanced way, in the most efficient way possible. With that. Guillaume, what about things like, you know, we hear a lot about more distributed energy resources, so more small-scale generation or storage out there on the grid that might be owned by the utility, but it might not be. It might be customer owned. What are we doing from a grid modernization perspective, to enable more distributed energy resources to utilize that those assets more on our grid?   Guillaume Paradis  35:28 Yeah, so that's core to the evolution and we're proposing and working toward and and really, if you boil it down to, you know, simple kind of concept, it's really that traditionally, we've had a static model of how our grid needs to operate, and we planned accordingly. So, you know, power flows in one direction to certain size customers. They use electricity to use our energy, and then we protect, we coordinate, we control accordingly, and we're moving into an environment where customer behavior evolves in a dynamic fashion in near real time, depending on what prices are available in the electricity market, depending on what aspirations various Customers have, depending on what technology they want to deploy to manage their energy footprint, a customer may look different, really, from one day to the next, as far as the electricity system is concerned, because their demand might be less significant on a day where their solar panels are better able to generate energy on a day where they choose to leverage a large battery system that they've installed at their facilities to manage their demand. And so from an electricity system standpoint, we need a much better awareness of what is happening in near real time to be able to control and then respond and ultimately offer the right service for our customers. So that's a big change again, going back to the how we're going to enable that. It's again, the core elements of communication infrastructure, more telemetry, so that we can see what's happening in real time. Think sensors. Think smart meters. Think, you know, software system within our control room to take all that information, information in in real time and make sense of it, and then ultimately drive our decision making and support our customers in leveraging energy resources in an optimal way for their needs, by making sure that we're aware of what's happening and not create barriers that are artificial because we're not Sure, and when we're not sure, safety is paramount, and when you prioritize safety and you don't have information, you have to be very conservative in the decisions you make, and you may limit customers choices and behavioral, you know choices, by having to have that safety margin and that safety conscience kind of override everything else. So better telemetry, better real time information, more dynamic ways of controlling energy allow us to enable customers and support their aspirations ultimately,   Trevor Freeman  38:38 I mean, it really comes kind of full circle back to our job is to let our customers do what they want to do when it comes to energy, enable that, and that may be just making sure the power is there and available, but it also may be making sure that our grid is set up to allow them to generate and store and sort of interact with energy in the way that they want to. So those two things are quite parallel. Okay, great. Last category here is grid resilience, and this is an important one, and especially in the eyes of our customers, because, you know, we're that unique industry where most of the time, people don't think of us when they really do think about us, it's because the lights have gone off, because there's some event that has resulted in an outage. And I just want to ensure our customers, we try very, very hard to make sure that doesn't happen as much as we can't control everything. So we have this category of grid resilience in our investment plan, and we know that we're going to be seeing and we have already started to see more frequent extreme weather events that is increasing. It's not going down. So what are we doing in our investment plan, or what are we planning to do in order to enhance grid resiliency and withstand those extreme weather event?   Guillaume Paradis  40:01 Yeah, so the need for resilience, in my mind, comes from a couple places. So, you know, there are drivers that are external, so the operating environment is evolving to your point. We've seen a number of very impactful weather events over the last few years, whether it be historically impactful ice storms, we've seen tornadoes in our service territory in a way that we didn't previously. We saw derecho a couple years ago, which was, you know, by some measure, the most impactful storm in the history of our company. And so, we know what we plan to withstand has evolved, and we need to reflect that in the decisions we make when we invest in our infrastructure. That can take a few forms, but for grid resilience, we're targeting specific investments so we can identify, and have identified areas of our system that are more vulnerable. Imagine overhead infrastructure that is more exposed to stronger winds. And so, we can go in there and then target those areas, target those segments of our system and make them more robust, more resistant to those external factors. And so, we have assessed our entire service territory. We've studied, you know, our vulnerability to changing patterns, to changing weather events, and in a very targeted manner, identified areas where we'll take action over the next five years to boost resilience of our electricity system in those scenarios, and really just generally. The other element is, you know, while those external factors are evolving and creating a stress on our system, we're also seeing people's dependence on electricity is availability continue to grow, right? So, you know, we've been through this many times at this point, and I'm sure it's been covered on on this podcast a number of times. But you know, people's, you know, need for highly and readily available electricity continues to go up. Think, you know, remote work. Think our utilization of, you know, the internet and the technologies that support that people need access to power, you know, on an ongoing basis for a variety of reasons that support their lifestyles. And so, while the external factors have become and are becoming more challenging and creating a stress, we're also seeing customers relying more heavily on our service being available, and so those things combined make it sort of an imperative that we take action and ensure that our system is robust and can withstand those conditions that are upon us. So, we change our planning approach. We evolve our choices with respect to investments. It could be simpler things than you know, targeting areas and replacing specific infrastructure. It could be as simple as changing our standards so that when we install a new poll, we know that it can withstand harsher winds and heavier ice loading parameters, and we do that across all our investments. So that's a key point here, with respect to grid resilience. Yes, we have a targeted, sort of very strategic approach to building resilience, but we also do that across all our investment categories when we put money in our distribution system to make sure that, similar to the point we made about technology, you know, we invest in assets that will, you know, outlive many of us, and they need to be adequate and appropriate for the environment in which they will operate long term. So we change, you know, the choices we make. We change the materials we use to build the infrastructure that we put in our system, so that ultimately the service levels and service quality that our customers get to enjoy, you know, meets their expectations for decades to come.   Trevor Freeman  44:47 I think the idea like it's good that we have called out specifically some activities targeted at group resilience, but some of the other stuff that we've already talked about all. Support resilience. And you mentioned in the grid modernization part, you know, part of that is restoring power to most customers quicker in our growth and electrification part, I mean making sure that our grid can handle the new loads also lends itself to resiliency. So, all of this is in service of making sure that power is there for our customers when they need it, how they need it, and done in a sort of safe and affordable way. That's the goal of all these categories together.   Guillaume Paradis  45:33 Yeah, absolutely the you know, going back to the earlier point, the categories are helpful in identifying the major drivers. But ultimately, to your point, Trevor, they all support each other, and when our team plans the future of electricity system, they do so in an integrated manner that considers the various benefits that we can achieve by taking action and putting more money in our distribution system?   Trevor Freeman  46:02 Yeah, great. So that's a nice segue into his next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this is why it is an investment plan. We're out there outlining, these are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that. And so if we don't do this. If we said, look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas. What are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like quality of service, reliability, safety, et cetera, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now.   Guillaume Paradis  46:41 Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? We what we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 2026 to 2030 is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years. What would be an appropriate race rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues. We've looked at making how we make sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely, timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years, and then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers, because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers lives, yes, in a positive manner When our services reliable and power is available, but also financially from a cost standpoint, we add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives. And so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs the level of investments in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in in our or in setting the plans for the future. So doing so looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans. If we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on, we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers. And we took a very deliberate, you know, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments, down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place. So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing. You know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it. Just from difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner, so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community so fairly direct, and frankly, it's our obligation to connect. So we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult take more time on the reliability front. Again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80 year old wood pole doesn't get any younger and does it get any stronger if you wait five, six more years? And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those type of assets. And, you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those polls that are deteriorated are more likely to fail, even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for customers with respect to other outcomes like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources. That might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we're don't have good real time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest so old assets, you know, are inherently more likely to create failure risks, and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint. So we would have to, and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be, and are always, very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems. But reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences, and of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that, you know, we continue to deliver the best service we can. But that would become more difficult than it is today.   Trevor Freeman  53:15 I appreciate that that context of you know, you like me, like energy, and we want to do all the cool things, and we want to have the system that is absolutely able to handle every eventuality, but we have to balance that with what is the right level of investment, what is the right pace to go at? And I think, you know, having seen the process, there's been a lot of work over the last year plus to find that balance, and I think we've, we've hit that balance in terms of being able to move the ball forward while trying to maintain that sort of affordability aspect for customers. Last question here to kind of wrap it all up, and we've touched on this a few times in some of the other questions, but how does our investment plan align with that broader energy transition that that we talk about? You know, decarbonizing, reducing emissions, increasing sort of customer flexibility when it comes to their own generation and storage. And what role do you see Hydro Ottawa playing moving forward in that? And I know that this has already gotten a little bit of attention, but I'll give you a chance just to kind of tie a nice little bow around it at the end.   Guillaume Paradis  54:39 Yeah. So to your point, we did cover a few elements, how we enable those you know, sustainability aspirations. But you know it ranges from making it possible for large customers to shift a significant portion of their energy demand to a lower. A carbon source like electricity. So again, think a customer who would use natural gas for their facilities, and you know, for corporate reasons, decides to use electricity instead us connecting that extra demand and delivering power to them allows them to lower their foot their carbon footprint. So that would be on high end in terms of size and impact, all the way to enabling customers to install different technologies on their homes, within their homes, to reduce their carbon footprint and change how they use energy. So it could be as simple as buying EV and making sure that power is available within that neighborhood to supply demand from that EV. It could be them installing solar panels on their roof and try to export power back to us. And so that would tie to the earlier point around visibility and real time awareness that we need to have to make sure that we can make that possible. So again, you know the energy system, the electricity system is integrated in so many ways, and enabling our customers to achieve their sustainability outcomes, their desired outcomes in terms of energy use, comes from planning the energy system, the electricity distribution system, in a manner that supports that and that permits it. So again, going back to some categories, the grid modernization that we spoke about earlier fits right in there. So being aware allows us to allow and enable customers, and that becomes critical again, in an environment where things are very dynamic, and we want to support that dynamism, and we need to do so in a manner that's safe. So we need information, and we need technology that allows us to go get that information to support the decision making. So as we said, all the investments we're proposing in one way or another will support our supporting those decarbonization and emission reduction objectives that we all have.   Trevor Freeman  57:26 Right, yeah, it really comes back to the idea of us being and this is something that I certainly talk to our customers about. A lot of us being partners with our customers when it comes to their energy journeys, and that can be very active partners in the sense of the word, where we are involved in helping make decisions together on technology or strategies, or it can be very passive in that kind of residential model that you talked about, of just making sure the grid can be there in the way that the customer wants it to be there, and that's still a partnership that that we need to lean into and that we are kind of through this investment plan.   Guillaume Paradis  58:07 We're essentially underpinning people's aspirations when it comes to energy, and so we're there to make it possible for them to do what they're hoping to do. And you're absolutely right. We're seeing both ends of those conversations where some you know, go about their own choices and really don't need us involved, and our responsibility there is to make sure that we don't create a roadblock by not being prepared and not being equipped to respond to you know how they want to change their behavior, all the way to that partnership, where it's a very involved conversation, we're being brought in to fully explore all the options and work with stakeholders in essentially demystifying, or maybe more specifically, sort of see through some of the complexity that exists today in an environment that is much more dynamic again and offers a lot more options than people would have seen a few decades ago.   Trevor Freeman  59:11 Fantastic. Well, Guillaume, I think we'll leave it there. This has been great, and I appreciate you taking the time to help pick apart you know what? What can be a pretty complex, lengthy plan, but really boils down to building out the grid, continuing to do the great work that that the folks at Hydro Ottawa do, while also preparing for the future. So I appreciate your insight into this. As our listeners know we always end these interviews with a series of questions, and you're no different. So I'm going to dive, dive right into that. So Guillaume, what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read?   Guillaume Paradis  59:54 Yeah, so I'm probably going to get his name wrong, or at least the pronunciation, but it's a book called How The World Really Works by Vaclav Smil. Essentially, you know, he's a very pragmatic thinker with respect to how systems work, how our world is integrated, from a supply standpoint, from a geopolitical standpoint, and how that leads to outcomes in the real world. And think things like energy, think things like food supply. And what I like with his approach is that he breaks thing that things down, sort of from a first principle standpoint, to try to help explain why certain things may or may not be possible, and in an environment where, and maybe that's just my perspective, but I think today, there's a lot of big picture, you know, broad opinions being shared by people who may or may not always be very knowledgeable or have the expertise in certain fields. It's nice to see someone kind of break things down to then try to support, or in some cases, dispel certain misconceptions. So really nice approach. He has a number of books that are similar in nature, some cases a bit dense to read through, frankly, but I would say the how the world really works, book is easier to digest and it's it's a good entry into kind of his works and his approach to his studies. The other thing that's a plus maybe, is that he's based out of Winnipeg in Canadians, so it's great to have a mind like his, you know, contributing to the discourse in Canada.   Trevor Freeman  1:01:59 Awesome. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show that you think everyone should check out?   Guillaume Paradis  1:02:05 Yeah, that's a little harder. I think maybe I'll go to an old classic. For me. I'm always impressed with extreme creativity, I'll call it - in whatever forms. I think it's neat to see how people can envision a world - or create a world. And so an example for me was the Grand Budapest Hotel movie by Wes Anderson, so I think people are familiar with his work by now. I just like the combination of humor color, color like the creation of a world that doesn't quite exist but resembles one we might know. And just, you know, it's, it's a way of expressing oneself that is so interesting, so different. He does it really, really well. And, you know, I find it sort of like awe inspiring to go back to those kinds of movies and look at, certainly, there's all sorts of good content these days that's being produced, but I think this one is kind of withstood the test of time so far and kind of brings you to a different place. So I'll point to that.   Trevor Freeman  1:03:17 Yeah, it's one of those where it's not just about the story. Watching that movie is a bit of an experience. And all the ways that you just said, you know, there's like, an artificial aspect to it. There's that sort of mental, emotional side of it, and then there's the story itself, with the humor and everything. So yeah, that's a great one. I really like that.   Guillaume Paradis  1:03:35 Always fascinating to think someone was able to come up with that, right? Like that. Yeah, totally have all like, the attention to details, the way in which the storylines are integrated, the way in which the decors, the images are graphed like it's just remarkable. And, and I think in anything, it's really cool to see people who are sort of masters at their art, right? And whatever for and there's all sorts of other examples. But that one, you know, came to mind.   Trevor Freeman  1:04:09 Yeah, very cool. If you had a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Guillaume Paradis  1:04:13 I think for me, it'd be somewhere very far north. I think it's on the list somewhere for the next few years, but just getting access to lands scenery that you wouldn't otherwise is really cool concept, maybe even spaces that are a bit less impacted by human you know, behavior and presence. So I just think a flight to somewhere random that maybe doesn't even have a name, but is in between two small villages that can only be accessed by a plane. I think that would be cool.   Trevor Freeman  1:04:58 Yeah, that does sound very cool. I like that. Who is someone that you admire?   Guillaume Paradis  1:05:03 Yeah, so my wife, for sure, I think that's sort of the foundation of a healthy relationship. You should have some admiration for your partner, and I absolutely do more generally. I would just point to anyone in our lives, and I think we all know people like that who spend a large amount of their time making other people's lives better. I could pick, you know, a celebrity of some kind, or politician of some kind, or even a historical figure, but, you know, I think in general, it doesn't have to be that complicated, people who just invest a lot of their time making sure others lives are better. I think that's something we should all admire, aspire to, you know, emulate, if we can, and just recognize as well. Because a lot of the times people do that, the people who do it well, don't do it for recognition. It doesn't mean they don't deserve it. And I think we should kind of try to promote it, you know, recognize it in our lives, and encourage it and emulate it, if we can.   Trevor Freeman  1:06:20 Fantastic. Well said. Last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you are particularly excited about?   Guillaume Paradis  1:06:25 Yeah, so I've been in the sector for about 20 years now, in fact, longer than that. My father worked for Hydro Quebec for many decades. So think we spent a lot of time talking about the future and getting excited about a future that was to come, and just the fact that we're living it now that we're actually shaping it, is pretty exciting, maybe even not appreciated to its full extent. And I think having a chance to contribute now is really awesome, and to whatever extent we can as well, I'm trying to encourage as many people as possible to join our sector, bring various backgrounds, you know, expertise, knowledge to helping us make decisions about how energy is going to be used in our society going forward, and how we can make the most this confluence of factors that create the window of opportunity to change things and make them evolve. And so for those of us who are part of it, let's not take it for granted, and let's make sure that we contribute to the full extent of our capabilities.   Trevor Freeman  1:07:45 Awesome, great, great way to wrap this up, I agree completely. Guillaume, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And sharing your thoughts with us. Really appreciate you coming on the show.   Guillaume Paradis  1:07:56 Thanks. Trevor, pleasure.   Trevor Freeman  1:07:59 Great take care. Well, there you have it everybody that was our last episode of the season before our summer break. Our regular listeners will know that we typically take a break over the summer to regroup and work on content and plan out the next year. But don't worry, we will be still releasing episodes every two weeks. They will just be rewind episodes, and we'll take a look back at some of our favorite episodes or things that we feel are particularly relevant for what's going on right now. So keep tuning in and listen to those, and we will be back with brand new content in September. Take care and have a safe summer. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review and review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].

Summer rewind: Greg Lindsay is an urban tech expert and a Senior Fellow at MIT. He’s also a two-time Jeopardy champion and the only human to go undefeated against IBM’s Watson. Greg joins thinkenergy to talk about how artificial intelligence (AI) is reshaping how we manage, consume, and produce energy—from personal devices to provincial grids, its rapid growth to the rising energy demand from AI itself. Listen in to learn how AI impacts our energy systems and what it means individually and industry-wide. Related links: ●       Greg Lindsay website: https://greglindsay.org/ ●       Greg Lindsay on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-lindsay-8b16952/ ●       International Energy Agency (IEA): https://www.iea.org/ ●       Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ ●       Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en    To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.   Trevor Freeman  00:55 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. Artificial intelligence, or AI, is a term that you're likely seeing and hearing everywhere today, and with good reason, the effectiveness and efficiency of today's AI, along with the ever increasing applications and use cases mean that in just the past few years, AI went from being a little bit fringe, maybe a little bit theoretical to very real and likely touching everyone's day to day lives in ways that we don't even notice, and we're just at the beginning of what looks to be a wave of many different ways that AI will shape and influence our society and our lives in the years to come. And the world of energy is no different. AI has the potential to change how we manage energy at all levels, from our individual devices and homes and businesses all the way up to our grids at the local, provincial and even national and international levels. At the same time, AI is also a massive consumer of energy, and the proliferation of AI data centers is putting pressure on utilities for more and more power at an unprecedented pace. But before we dive into all that, I also think it will be helpful to define what AI is. After all, the term isn't new. Like me, many of our listeners may have grown up hearing about Skynet from Terminator, or how from 2001 A Space Odyssey, but those malignant, almost sentient versions of AI aren't really what we're talking about here today. And to help shed some light on both what AI is as well as what it can do and how it might influence the world of energy, my guest today is Greg Lindsay, to put it in technical jargon, Greg's bio is super neat, so I do want to take time to run through it properly. Greg is a non resident Senior Fellow of MIT's future urban collectives lab Arizona State University's threat casting lab and the Atlantic Council's Scowcroft center for strategy and security. Most recently, he was a 2022-2023 urban tech Fellow at Cornell Tech's Jacobs Institute, where he explored the implications of AI and augmented reality at an urban scale. Previously, he was an urbanist in resident, which is a pretty cool title, at BMW minis urban tech accelerator, urban X, as well as the director of Applied Research at Montreal's new cities and Founding Director of Strategy at its mobility focused offshoot, co motion. He's advised such firms as Intel, Samsung, Audi, Hyundai, IKEA and Starbucks, along with numerous government entities such as 10 Downing Street, us, Department of Energy and NATO. And finally, and maybe coolest of all, Greg is also a two time Jeopardy champion and the only human to go undefeated against IBM's Watson. So on that note, Greg Lindsey, welcome to the show.   Greg Lindsay  04:14 Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Trevor,   Trevor Freeman  04:16 So Greg, we're here to talk about AI and the impacts that AI is going to have on energy, but AI is a bit of one of those buzzwords that we hear out there in a number of different spheres today. So let's start by setting the stage of what exactly we're talking about. So what do we mean when we say AI or artificial intelligence?   Speaker 1  04:37 Well, I'd say the first thing to keep in mind is that it is neither artificial nor intelligence. It's actually composites of many human hands making it. And of course, it's not truly intelligent either. I think there's at least two definitions for the layman's purposes. One is statistical machine learning. You know that is the previous generation of AI, we could say, doing deep, deep statistical analysis, looking for patterns fitting to. Patterns doing prediction. There's a great book, actually, by some ut professors at monk called prediction machines, which that was a great way of thinking about machine learning and sense of being able to do large scale prediction at scale. And that's how I imagine hydro, Ottawa and others are using this to model out network efficiencies and predictive maintenance and all these great uses. And then the newer, trendier version, of course, is large language models, your quads, your chat gpts, your others, which are based on transformer models, which is a whole series of work that many Canadians worked on, including Geoffrey Hinton and others. And this is what has produced the seemingly magical abilities to produce text and images on demand and large scale analysis. And that is the real power hungry beast that we think of as AI today.   Trevor Freeman  05:42 Right! So different types of AI. I just want to pick those apart a little bit. When you say machine learning, it's kind of being able to repetitively look at something or a set of data over and over and over again. And because it's a computer, it can do it, you know, 1000s or millions of times a second, and learn what, learn how to make decisions based on that. Is that fair to say?   Greg Lindsay  06:06 That's fair to say. And the thing about that is, is like you can train it on an output that you already know, large language models are just vomiting up large parts of pattern recognition, which, again, can feel like magic because of our own human brains doing it. But yeah, machine learning, you can, you know, you can train it to achieve outcomes. You can overfit the models where it like it's trained too much in the past, but, yeah, it's a large scale probabilistic prediction of things, which makes it so powerful for certain uses.   Trevor Freeman  06:26 Yeah, one of the neatest explanations or examples I've seen is, you know, you've got these language models where it seems like this AI, whether it's chat, DBT or whatever, is writing really well, like, you know, it's improving our writing. It's making things sound better. And it seems like it's got a brain behind it, but really, what it's doing is it's going out there saying, What have millions or billions of other people written like this? And how can I take the best things of that? And it can just do that really quickly, and it's learned that that model, so that's super helpful to understand what we're talking about here. So obviously, in your work, you look at the impact of AI on a number of different aspects of our world, our society. What we're talking about here today is particularly the impact of AI when it comes to energy. And I'd like to kind of bucketize our conversation a little bit today, and the first area I want to look at is, what will ai do when it comes to energy for the average Canadian? Let's say so in my home, in my business, how I move around? So I'll start with that. It's kind of a high level conversation. Let's start talking about the different ways that AI will impact you know that our average listener here?   Speaker 1  07:41 Um, yeah, I mean, we can get into a discussion about what it means for the average Canadian, and then also, of course, what it means for Canada in the world as well, because I just got back from South by Southwest in Austin, and, you know, for the second, third year in row, AI was on everyone's lips. But really it's the energy. Is the is the bottleneck. It's the forcing factor. Everyone talked about it, the fact that all the data centers we can get into that are going to be built in the direction of energy. So, so, yeah, energy holds the key to the puzzle there. But, um, you know, from the average gain standpoint, I mean, it's a question of, like, how will these tools actually play out, you know, inside of the companies that are using this, right? And that was a whole other discussion too. It's like, okay, we've been playing around with these tools for two, three years now, what do they actually use to deliver value of your large language model? So I've been saying this for 10 years. If you look at the older stuff you could start with, like smart thermostats, even look at the potential savings of this, of basically using machine learning to optimize, you know, grid optimize patterns of usage, understanding, you know, the ebbs and flows of the grid, and being able to, you know, basically send instructions back and forth. So you know there's stats. You know that, basically you know that you know you could save 10 to 25% of electricity bills. You know, based on this, you could reduce your heating bills by 10 to 15% again, it's basically using this at very large scales of the scale of hydro Ottawa, bigger, to understand this sort of pattern usage. But even then, like understanding like how weather forecasts change, and pulling that data back in to basically make fine tuning adjustments to the thermostats and things like that. So that's one stands out. And then, you know, we can think about longer term. I mean, yeah, lots have been lots has been done on imagining, like electric mobility, of course, huge in Canada, and what that's done to sort of change the overall energy mix virtual power plants. This is something that I've studied, and we've been writing about at Fast Company. At Fast Company beyond for 20 years, imagining not just, you know, the ability to basically, you know, feed renewable electricity back into the grid from people's solar or from whatever sources they have there, but the ability of utilities to basically go in and fine tune, to have that sort of demand shaping as well. And then I think the most interesting stuff, at least in demos, and also blockchain, which has had many theoretical uses, and I've got to see a real one. But one of the best theoretical ones was being able to create neighborhood scale utilities. Basically my cul de sac could have one, and we could trade clean electrons off of our solar panels through our batteries and home scale batteries, using Blockchain to basically balance this out. Yeah, so there's lots of potential, but yeah, it comes back to the notion of people want cheaper utility bills. I did this piece 10 years ago for the Atlantic Council on this we looked at a multi country survey, and the only reason anybody wanted a smart home, which they just were completely skeptical about, was to get those cheaper utility bills. So people pay for that.   Trevor Freeman  10:19 I think it's an important thing to remember, obviously, especially for like the nerds like me, who part of my driver is, I like that cool new tech. I like that thing that I can play with and see my data. But for most people, no matter what we're talking about here, when it comes to that next technology, the goal is make my life a little bit easier, give me more time or whatever, and make things cheaper. And I think especially in the energy space, people aren't putting solar panels on their roof because it looks great. And, yeah, maybe people do think it looks great, but they're putting it up there because they want cheaper electricity. And it's going to be the same when it comes to batteries. You know, there's that add on of resiliency and reliability, but at the end of the day, yeah, I want my bill to be cheaper. And what I'm hearing from you is some of the things we've already seen, like smart thermostats get better as AI gets better. Is that fair to say?   Greg Lindsay  11:12 Well, yeah, on the machine learning side, that you know, you get ever larger data points. This is why data is the coin of the realm. This is why there's a race to collect data on everything. Is why every business model is data collection and everything. Because, yes, not only can they get better, but of course, you know, you compile enough and eventually start finding statistical inferences you never meant to look for. And this is why I've been involved. Just as a side note, for example, of cities that have tried to implement their own data collection of electric scooters and eventually electric vehicles so they could understand these kinds of patterns, it's really the key to anything. And so it's that efficiency throughput which raises some really interesting philosophical questions, particularly about AI like, this is the whole discussion on deep seek. Like, if you make the models more efficient, do you have a Jevons paradox, which is the paradox of, like, the more energy you save through efficiency, the more you consume because you've made it cheaper. So what does this mean that you know that Canadian energy consumption is likely to go up the cleaner and cheaper the electrons get. It's one of those bedeviling sort of functions.   Trevor Freeman  12:06 Yeah interesting. That's definitely an interesting way of looking at it. And you referenced this earlier, and I will talk about this. But at the macro level, the amount of energy needed for these, you know, AI data centers in order to do all this stuff is, you know, we're seeing that explode.   Greg Lindsay  12:22 Yeah, I don't know that. Canadian statistics my fingertips, but I brought this up at Fast Company, like, you know, the IEA, I think International Energy Agency, you know, reported a 4.3% growth in the global electricity grid last year, and it's gonna be 4% this year. That does not sound like much. That is the equivalent of Japan. We're adding in Japan every year to the grid for at least the next two to three years. Wow. And that, you know, that's global South, air conditioning and other needs here too, but that the data centers on top is like the tip of the spear. It's changed all this consumption behavior, where now we're seeing mothballed coal plants and new plants and Three Mile Island come back online, as this race for locking up electrons, for, you know, the race to build God basically, the number of people in AI who think they're literally going to build weekly godlike intelligences, they'll, they won't stop at any expense. And so they will buy as much energy as they can get.   Trevor Freeman  13:09 Yeah, well, we'll get to that kind of grid side of things in a minute. Let's stay at the home first. So when I look at my house, we talked about smart thermostats. We're seeing more and more automation when it comes to our homes. You know, we can program our lights and our door locks and all this kind of stuff. What does ai do in order to make sure that stuff is contributing to efficiency? So I want to do all those fun things, but use the least amount of energy possible.   Greg Lindsay  13:38 Well, you know, I mean, there's, again, there's various metrics there to basically, sort of, you know, program your lights. And, you know, Nest is, you know, Google. Nest is an example of this one, too, in terms of basically learning your ebb and flow and then figuring out how to optimize it over the course of the day. So you can do that, you know, we've seen, again, like the home level. We've seen not only the growth in solar panels, but also in those sort of home battery integration. I was looking up that Tesla Powerwall was doing just great in Canada, until the last couple of months. I assume so, but I it's been, it's been heartening to see that, yeah, this sort of embrace of home energy integration, and so being able to level out, like, peak flow off the grid, so Right? Like being able to basically, at moments of peak demand, to basically draw on your own local resources and reduce that overall strain. So there's been interesting stuff there. But I want to focus for a moment on, like, terms of thinking about new uses. Because, you know, again, going back to how AI will influence the home and automation. You know, Jensen Wong of Nvidia has talked about how this will be the year of robotics. Google, Gemini just applied their models to robotics. There's startups like figure there's, again, Tesla with their optimists, and, yeah, there's a whole strain of thought that we're about to see, like home robotics, perhaps a dream from like, the 50s. I think this is a very Disney World esque Epcot Center, yeah, with this idea of jetsy, yeah, of having home robots doing work. You can see concept videos a figure like doing the actual vacuuming. I mean, we invented Roombas to this, but, but it also, I, you know, I've done a lot of work. Our own thinking around electric delivery vehicles. We could talk a lot about drones. We could talk a lot about the little robots that deliver meals on the sidewalk. There's a lot of money in business models about increasing access and people needing to maybe move less, to drive and do all these trips to bring it to them. And that's a form of home automation, and that's all batteries. That is all stuff off the grid too. So AI is that enable those things, these things that can think and move and fly and do stuff and do services on your behalf, and so people might find this huge new source of demand from that as well.   Trevor Freeman  15:29 Yeah, that's I hadn't really thought about the idea that all the all these sort of conveniences and being able to summon them to our homes cause us to move around less, which also impacts transportation, which is another area I kind of want to get to. And I know you've, you've talked a little bit about E mobility, so where do you see that going? And then, how does AI accelerate that transition, or accelerate things happening in that space?   Greg Lindsay  15:56 Yeah, I mean, I again, obviously the EV revolutions here Canada like, one of the epicenters Canada, Norway there, you know, that still has the vehicle rebates and things. So, yeah. I mean, we've seen, I'm here in Montreal, I think we've got, like, you know, 30 to 13% of sales is there, and we've got our 2035, mandate. So, yeah. I mean, you see this push, obviously, to harness all of Canada's clean, mostly hydro electricity, to do this, and, you know, reduce its dependence on fossil fuels for either, you know, Climate Change Politics reasons, but also just, you know, variable energy prices. So all of that matters. But, you know, I think the key to, like the electric mobility revolution, again, is, is how it's going to merge with AI and it's, you know, it's not going to just be the autonomous, self driving car, which is sort of like the horseless carriage of autonomy. It's gonna be all this other stuff, you know. My friend Dan Hill was in China, and he was thinking about like, electric scooters, you know. And I mentioned this to hydro Ottawa, like, the electric scooter is one of the leading causes of how we've taken internal combustion engine vehicles offline across the world, mostly in China, and put people on clean electric motors. What happens when you take those and you make those autonomous, and you do it with, like, deep seek and some cameras, and you sort of weld it all together so you could have a world of a lot more stuff in motion, and not just this world where we have to drive as much. And that, to me, is really exciting, because that changes, like urban patterns, development patterns, changes how you move around life, those kinds of things as well. That's that might be a little farther out, but, but, yeah, this sort of like this big push to build out domestic battery industries, to build charging points and the sort of infrastructure there, I think it's going to go in direction, but it doesn't look anything like, you know, a sedan or an SUV that just happens to be electric.   Trevor Freeman  17:33 I think that's a the step change is change the drive train of the existing vehicles we have, you know, an internal combustion to a battery. The exponential change is exactly what you're saying. It's rethinking this.   Greg Lindsay  17:47 Yeah, Ramesam and others have pointed out, I mean, again, like this, you know, it's, it's really funny to see this pushback on EVs, you know. I mean, I love a good, good roar of an internal combustion engine myself, but, but like, you know, Ramesam was an energy analyst, has pointed out that, like, you know, EVS were more cost competitive with ice cars in 2018 that's like, nearly a decade ago. And yeah, the efficiency of electric motors, particularly regenerative braking and everything, it just blows the cost curves away of ice though they will become the equivalent of keeping a thorough brat around your house kind of thing. Yeah, so, so yeah, it's just, it's that overall efficiency of the drive train. And that's the to me, the interesting thing about both electric motors, again, of autonomy is like, those are general purpose technologies. They get cheaper and smaller as they evolve under Moore's Law and other various laws, and so they get to apply to more and more stuff.   Trevor Freeman  18:32 Yeah. And then when you think about once, we kind of figure that out, and we're kind of already there, or close to it, if not already there, then it's opening the door to those other things you're talking about. Of, well, do we, does everybody need to have that car in their driveway? Are we rethinking how we're actually just doing transportation in general? And do we need a delivery truck? Or can it be delivery scooter? Or what does that look like?   Greg Lindsay  18:54 Well, we had a lot of those discussions for a long time, particularly in the mobility space, right? Like, and like ride hailing, you know, like, oh, you know, that was always the big pitch of an Uber is, you know, your car's parked in your driveway, like 94% of the time. You know, what happens if you're able to have no mobility? Well, we've had 15 years of Uber and these kinds of services, and we still have as many cars. But people are also taking this for mobility. It's additive. And I raised this question, this notion of like, it's just sort of more and more, more options, more availability, more access. Because the same thing seems to be going on with energy now too. You know, listeners been following along, like the conversation in Houston, you know, a week or two ago at Sarah week, like it's the whole notion of energy realism. And, you know, there's the new book out, more is more is more, which is all about the fact that we've never had an energy transition. We just kept piling up. Like the world burned more biomass last year than it did in 1900 it burned more coal last year than it did at the peak of coal. Like these ages don't really end. They just become this sort of strata as we keep piling energy up on top of it. And you know, I'm trying to sound the alarm that we won't have an energy transition. What that means for climate change? But similar thing, it's. This rebound effect, the Jevons paradox, named after Robert Stanley Jevons in his book The question of coal, where he noted the fact that, like, England was going to need more and more coal. So it's a sobering thought. But, like, I mean, you know, it's a glass half full, half empty in many ways, because the half full is like increasing technological options, increasing changes in lifestyle. You can live various ways you want, but, but, yeah, it's like, I don't know if any of it ever really goes away. We just get more and more stuff,   Trevor Freeman  20:22 Exactly, well. And, you know, to hear you talk about the robotics side of things, you know, looking at the home, yeah, more, definitely more. Okay, so we talked about kind of home automation. We've talked about transportation, how we get around. What about energy management? And I think about this at the we'll talk about the utility side again in a little bit. But, you know, at my house, or for my own personal use in my life, what is the role of, like, sort of machine learning and AI, when it comes to just helping me manage my own energy better and make better decisions when it comes to energy? ,   Greg Lindsay  20:57 Yeah, I mean, this is where it like comes in again. And you know, I'm less and less of an expert here, but I've been following this sort of discourse evolve. And right? It's the idea of, you know, yeah, create, create. This the set of tools in your home, whether it's solar panels or batteries or, you know, or Two Way Direct, bi directional to the grid, however it works. And, yeah, and people, you know, given this option of savings, and perhaps, you know, other marketing messages there to curtail behavior. You know? I mean, I think the short answer the question is, like, it's an app people want, an app that tell them basically how to increase the efficiency of their house or how to do this. And I should note that like, this has like been the this is the long term insight when it comes to like energy and the clean tech revolution. Like my Emery Levin says this great line, which I've always loved, which is, people don't want energy. They want hot showers and cold beer. And, you know, how do you, how do you deliver those things through any combination of sticks and carrots, basically like that. So, So, hence, why? Like, again, like, you know, you know, power walls, you know, and, and, and, you know, other sort of AI controlled batteries here that basically just sort of smooth out to create the sort of optimal flow of electrons into your house, whether that's coming drive directly off the grid or whether it's coming out of your backup and then recharging that the time, you know, I mean, the surveys show, like, more than half of Canadians are interested in this stuff, you know, they don't really know. I've got one set here, like, yeah, 61% are interested in home energy tech, but only 27 understand, 27% understand how to optimize them. So, yeah. So people need, I think, perhaps, more help in handing that over. And obviously, what's exciting for the, you know, the utility level is, like, you know, again, aggregate all that individual behavior together and you get more models that, hope you sort of model this out, you know, at both greater scale and ever more fine grained granularity there. So, yeah, exactly. So I think it's really interesting, you know, I don't know, like, you know, people have gamified it. What was it? I think I saw, like, what is it? The affordability fund trust tried to basically gamify AI energy apps, and it created various savings there. But a lot of this is gonna be like, as a combination like UX design and incentives design and offering this to people too, about, like, why you should want this and money's one reason, but maybe there's others.   Trevor Freeman  22:56 Yeah, and we talk about in kind of the utility sphere, we talk about how customers, they don't want all the data, and then have to go make their own decisions. They want those decisions to be made for them, and they want to say, look, I want to have you tell me the best rate plan to be on. I want to have you automatically switch me to the best rate plan when my consumption patterns change and my behavior chat patterns change. That doesn't exist today, but sort of that fast decision making that AI brings will let that become a reality sometime in the future,   Greg Lindsay  23:29 And also in theory, this is where LLMs come into play. Is like, you know, to me, what excites me the most about that is the first time, like having a true natural language interface, like having being able to converse with an, you know, an AI, let's hopefully not chat bot. I think we're moving out on chat bots, but some sort of sort of instantiation of an AI to be like, what plan should I be on? Can you tell me what my behavior is here and actually having some sort of real language conversation with it? Not decision trees, not event statements, not chat bots.   Trevor Freeman  23:54 Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so we've kind of teased around this idea of looking at the utility levels, obviously, at hydro Ottawa, you referenced this just a minute ago. We look at all these individual cases, every home that has home automation or solar storage, and we want to aggregate that and understand what, what can we do to help manage the grid, help manage all these new energy needs, shift things around. So let's talk a little bit about the role that AI can play at the utility scale in helping us manage the grid.   Greg Lindsay  24:28 All right? Well, yeah, there's couple ways to approach it. So one, of course, is like, let's go back to, like, smart meters, right? Like, and this is where I don't know how many hydro Ottawa has, but I think, like, BC Hydro has like, 2 million of them, sometimes they get politicized, because, again, this gets back to this question of, like, just, just how much nanny state you want. But, you know, you know, when you reach the millions, like, yeah, you're able to get that sort of, you know, obviously real time, real time usage, real time understanding. And again, if you can do that sort of grid management piece where you can then push back, it's visual game changer. But, but yeah. I mean, you know, yeah, be. See hydro is pulling in. I think I read like, like, basically 200 million data points a day. So that's a lot to train various models on. And, you know, I don't know exactly the kind of savings they have, but you can imagine there, whether it's, you know, them, or Toronto Hydro, or hydro Ottawa and others creating all these monitoring points. And again, this is the thing that bedells me, by the way, just philosophically about modern life, the notion of like, but I don't want you to be collecting data off me at all times, but look at what you can do if you do It's that constant push pull of some sort of combination of privacy and agency, and then just the notion of like statistics, but, but there you are, but, but, yeah, but at the grid level, then I mean, like, yeah. I mean, you can sort of do the same thing where, like, you know, I mean, predictive maintenance is the obvious one, right? I have been writing about this for large enterprise software companies for 20 years, about building these data points, modeling out the lifetime of various important pieces equipment, making sure you replace them before you have downtime and terrible things happen. I mean, as we're as we're discussing this, look at poor Heathrow Airport. I am so glad I'm not flying today, electrical substation blowing out two days of the world's most important hub offline. So that's where predictive maintenance comes in from there. And, yeah, I mean, I, you know, I again, you know, modeling out, you know, energy flow to prevent grid outages, whether that's, you know, the ice storm here in Quebec a couple years ago. What was that? April 23 I think it was, yeah, coming up in two years. Or our last ice storm, we're not the big one, but that one, you know, where we had big downtime across the grid, like basically monitoring that and then I think the other big one for AI is like, Yeah, is this, this notion of having some sort of decision support as well, too, and sense of, you know, providing scenarios and modeling out at scale the potential of it? And I don't think, I don't know about this in a grid case, but the most interesting piece I wrote for Fast Company 20 years ago was an example, ago was an example of this, which was a fledgling air taxi startup, but they were combining an agent based model, so using primitive AI to create simple rules for individual agents and build a model of how they would behave, which you can create much more complex models. Now we could talk about agents and then marrying that to this kind of predictive maintenance and operations piece, and marrying the two together. And at that point, you could have a company that didn't exist, but that could basically model itself in real time every day in the life of what it is. You can create millions and millions and millions of Monte Carlo operations. And I think that's where perhaps both sides of AI come together truly like the large language models and agents, and then the predictive machine learning. And you could basically hydro or others, could build this sort of deep time machine where you can model out all of these scenarios, millions and millions of years worth, to understand how it flows and contingencies as well. And that's where it sort of comes up. So basically something happens. And like, not only do you have a set of plans, you have an AI that has done a million sets of these plans, and can imagine potential next steps of this, or where to deploy resources. And I think in general, that's like the most powerful use of this, going back to prediction machines and just being able to really model time in a way that we've never had that capability before. And so you probably imagine the use is better than I.   Trevor Freeman  27:58 Oh man, it's super fascinating, and it's timely. We've gone through the last little while at hydro Ottawa, an exercise of updating our playbook for emergencies. So when there are outages, what kind of outage? What's the sort of, what are the trigger points to go from, you know, what we call a level one to a level two to level three. But all of this is sort of like people hours that are going into that, and we're thinking through these scenarios, and we've got a handful of them, and you're just kind of making me think, well, yeah, what if we were able to model that out? And you bring up this concept of agents, let's tease into that a little bit explain what you mean when you're talking about agents.   Greg Lindsay  28:36 Yeah, so agentic systems, as the term of art is, AI instantiations that have some level of autonomy. And the archetypal example of this is the Stanford Smallville experiment, where they took basically a dozen large language models and they gave it an architecture where they could give it a little bit of backstory, ruminate on it, basically reflect, think, decide, and then act. And in this case, they used it to plan a Valentine's Day party. So they played out real time, and the LLM agents, like, even played matchmaker. They organized the party, they sent out invitations, they did these sorts of things. Was very cute. They put it out open source, and like, three weeks later, another team of researchers basically put them to work writing software programs. So you can see they organized their own workflow. They made their own decisions. There was a CTO. They fact check their own work. And this is evolving into this grand vision of, like, 1000s, millions of agents, just like, just like you spin up today an instance of Amazon Web Services to, like, host something in the cloud. You're going to spin up an agent Nvidia has talked about doing with healthcare and others. So again, coming back to like, the energy implications of that, because it changes the whole pattern. Instead of huge training runs requiring giant data centers. You know, it's these agents who are making all these calls and doing more stuff at the edge, but, um, but yeah, in this case, it's the notion of, you know, what can you put the agents to work doing? And I bring this up again, back to, like, predictive maintenance, or for hydro Ottawa, there's another amazing paper called virtual in real life. And I chatted with one of the principal authors. It created. A half dozen agents who could play tour guide, who could direct you to a coffee shop, who do these sorts of things, but they weren't doing it in a virtual world. They were doing it in the real one. And to do it in the real world, you took the agent, you gave them a machine vision capability, so added that model so they could recognize objects, and then you set them loose inside a digital twin of the world, in this case, something very simple, Google Street View. And so in the paper, they could go into like New York Central Park, and they could count every park bench and every waste bin and do it in seconds and be 99% accurate. And so agents were monitoring the landscape. Everything's up, because you can imagine this in the real world too, that we're going to have all the time. AIS roaming the world, roaming these virtual maps, these digital twins that we build for them and constantly refresh from them, from camera data, from sensor data, from other stuff, and tell us what this is. And again, to me, it's really exciting, because that's finally like an operating system for the internet of things that makes sense, that's not so hardwired that you can ask agents, can you go out and look for this for me? Can you report back on this vital system for me? And they will be able to hook into all of these kinds of representations of real time data where they're emerging from, and give you aggregated reports on this one. And so, you know, I think we have more visibility in real time into the real world than we've ever had before.   Trevor Freeman  31:13 Yeah, I want to, I want to connect a few dots here for our listeners. So bear with me for a second. Greg. So for our listeners, there was a podcast episode we did about a year ago on our grid modernization roadmap, and we talked about one of the things we're doing with grid modernization at hydro Ottawa and utilities everywhere doing this is increasing the sensor data from our grid. So we're, you know, right now, we've got visibility sort of to our station level, sometimes one level down to some switches. But in the future, we'll have sensors everywhere on our grid, every switch, every device on our grid, will have a sensor gathering data. Obviously, you know, like you said earlier, millions and hundreds of millions of data points every second coming in. No human can kind of make decisions on that, and what you're describing is, so now we've got all this data points, we've got a network of information out there, and you could create this agent to say, Okay, you are. You're my transformer agent. Go out there and have a look at the run temperature of every transformer on the network, and tell me where the anomalies are, which ones are running a half a degree or two degrees warmer than they should be, and report back. And now I know hydro Ottawa, that the controller, the person sitting in the room, knows, Hey, we should probably go roll a truck and check on that transformer, because maybe it's getting end of life. Maybe it's about to go and you can do that across the entire grid. That's really fascinating,   Greg Lindsay  32:41 And it's really powerful, because, I mean, again, these conversations 20 years ago at IoT, you know you're going to have statistical triggers, and you would aggregate these data coming off this, and there was a lot of discussion there, but it was still very, like hardwired, and still very Yeah, I mean, I mean very probabilistic, I guess, for a word that went with agents like, yeah, you've now created an actual thing that can watch those numbers and they can aggregate from other systems. I mean, lots, lots of potential there hasn't quite been realized, but it's really exciting stuff. And this is, of course, where that whole direction of the industry is flowing. It's on everyone's lips, agents.   Trevor Freeman  33:12 Yeah. Another term you mentioned just a little bit ago that I want you to explain is a digital twin. So tell us what a digital twin is.   Greg Lindsay  33:20 So a digital twin is, well, the matrix. Perhaps you could say something like this for listeners of a certain age, but the digital twin is the idea of creating a model of a piece of equipment, of a city, of the world, of a system. And it is, importantly, it's physics based. It's ideally meant to represent and capture the real time performance of the physical object it's based on, and in this digital representation, when something happens in the physical incarnation of it, it triggers a corresponding change in state in the digital twin, and then vice versa. In theory, you know, you could have feedback loops, again, a lot of IoT stuff here, if you make changes virtually, you know, perhaps it would cause a change in behavior of the system or equipment, and the scales can change from, you know, factory equipment. Siemens, for example, does a lot of digital twin work on this. You know, SAP, big, big software companies have thought about this. But the really crazy stuff is, like, what Nvidia is proposing. So first they started with a digital twin. They very modestly called earth two, where they were going to model all the weather and climate systems of the planet down to like the block level. There's a great demo of like Jensen Wong walking you through a hurricane, typhoons striking the Taipei, 101, and how, how the wind currents are affecting the various buildings there, and how they would change that more recently, what Nvidia is doing now is, but they just at their big tech investor day, they just partner with General Motors and others to basically do autonomous cars. And what's crucial about it, they're going to train all those autonomous vehicles in an NVIDIA built digital twin in a matrix that will act, that will be populated by agents that will act like people, people ish, and they will be able to run millions of years of autonomous vehicle training in this and this is how they plan to catch up to. Waymo or, you know, if Tesla's robotaxis are ever real kind of thing, you know, Waymo built hardwired like trained on real world streets, and that's why they can only operate in certain operating domain environments. Nvidia is gambling that with large language models and transformer models combined with digital twins, you can do these huge leapfrog effects where you can basically train all sorts of synthetic agents in real world behavior that you have modeled inside the machine. So again, that's the kind, that's exactly the kind of, you know, environment that you're going to train, you know, your your grid of the future on for modeling out all your contingency scenarios.   Trevor Freeman  35:31 Yeah, again, you know, for to bring this to the to our context, a couple of years ago, we had our the direcco. It's a big, massive windstorm that was one of the most damaging storms that we've had in Ottawa's history, and we've made some improvements since then, and we've actually had some great performance since then. Imagine if we could model that derecho hitting our grid from a couple different directions and figure out, well, which lines are more vulnerable to wind speeds, which lines are more vulnerable to flying debris and trees, and then go address that and do something with that, without having to wait for that storm to hit. You know, once in a decade or longer, the other use case that we've talked about on this one is just modeling what's happening underground. So, you know, in an urban environments like Ottawa, like Montreal, where you are, there's tons of infrastructure under the ground, sewer pipes, water pipes, gas lines, electrical lines, and every time the city wants to go and dig up a road and replace that road, replace that sewer, they have to know what's underground. We want to know what's underground there, because our infrastructure is under there. As the electric utility. Imagine if you had a model where you can it's not just a map. You can actually see what's happening underground and determine what makes sense to go where, and model out these different scenarios of if we underground this line or that line there. So lots of interesting things when it comes to a digital twin. The digital twin and Agent combination is really interesting as well, and setting those agents loose on a model that they can play with and understand and learn from. So talk a little bit about.   Greg Lindsay  37:11 that. Yeah. Well, there's a couple interesting implications just the underground, you know, equipment there. One is interesting because in addition to, like, you know, you know, having captured that data through mapping and other stuff there, and having agents that could talk about it. So, you know, next you can imagine, you know, I've done some work with augmented reality XR. This is sort of what we're seeing again, you know, meta Orion has shown off their concept. Google's brought back Android XR. Meta Ray Bans are kind of an example of this. But that's where this data will come from, right? It's gonna be people wearing these wearables in the world, capturing all this camera data and others that's gonna be fed into these digital twins to refresh them. Meta has a particularly scary demo where you know where you the user, the wearer leaves their keys on their coffee table and asks metas, AI, where their coffee where their keys are, and it knows where they are. It tells them and goes back and shows them some data about it. I'm like, well, to do that, meta has to have a complete have a complete real time map of your entire house. What could go wrong. And that's what all these companies aspire to of reality. So, but yeah, you can imagine, you know, you can imagine a worker. And I've worked with a startup out of urban X, a Canada startup, Canadian startup called context steer. And you know, is the idea of having real time instructions and knowledge manuals available to workers, particularly predictive maintenance workers and line workers. So you can imagine a technician dispatched to deal with this cut in the pavement and being able to see with XR and overlay of like, what's actually under there from the digital twin, having an AI basically interface with what's sort of the work order, and basically be your assistant that can help you walk you through it, in case, you know, you run into some sort of complication there, hopefully that won't be, you know, become like, turn, turn by turn, directions for life that gets into, like, some of the questions about what we wanted out of our workforce. But there's some really interesting combinations of those things, of like, you know, yeah, mapping a world for AIS, ais that can understand it, that could ask questions in it, that can go probe it, that can give you advice on what to do in it. All those things are very close for good and for bad.   Trevor Freeman  39:03 You kind of touched on my next question here is, how do we make sure this is all in the for good or mostly in the for good category, and not the for bad category you talk in one of the papers that you wrote about, you know, AI and augmented reality in particular, really expanding the attack surface for malicious actors. So we're creating more opportunities for whatever the case may be, if it's hacking or if it's malware, or if it's just, you know, people that are up to nefarious things. How do we protect against that? How do we make sure that our systems are safe that the users of our system. So in our case, our customers, their data is safe, their the grid is safe. How do we make sure that?   Greg Lindsay  39:49 Well, the very short version is, whatever we're spending on cybersecurity, we're not spending enough. And honestly, like everybody who is no longer learning to code, because we can be a quad or ChatGPT to do it, I. Is probably there should be a whole campaign to repurpose a big chunk of tech workers into cybersecurity, into locking down these systems, into training ethical systems. There's a lot of work to be done there. But yeah, that's been the theme for you know that I've seen for 10 years. So that paper I mentioned about sort of smart homes, the Internet of Things, and why people would want a smart home? Well, yeah, the reason people were skeptical is because they saw it as basically a giant attack vector. My favorite saying about this is, is, there's a famous Arthur C Clarke quote that you know, any sufficiently advanced technology is magic Tobias Ravel, who works at Arup now does their head of foresight has this great line, any sufficiently advanced hacking will feel like a haunting meaning. If you're in a smart home that's been hacked, it will feel like you're living in a haunted house. Lights will flicker on and off, and systems will turn and go haywire. It'll be like you're living with a possessed house. And that's true of cities or any other systems. So we need to do a lot of work on just sort of like locking that down and securing that data, and that is, you know, we identified, then it has to go all the way up and down the supply chain, like you have to make sure that there is, you know, a chain of custody going back to when components are made, because a lot of the attacks on nest, for example. I mean, you want to take over a Google nest, take it off the wall and screw the back out of it, which is a good thing. It's not that many people are prying open our thermostats, but yeah, if you can get your hands on it, you can do a lot of these systems, and you can do it earlier in the supply chain and sorts of infected pieces and things. So there's a lot to be done there. And then, yeah, and then, yeah, and then there's just a question of, you know, making sure that the AIs are ethically trained and reinforced. And, you know, a few people want to listeners, want to scare themselves. You can go out and read some of the stuff leaking out of anthropic and others and make clot of, you know, models that are trying to hide their own alignments and trying to, like, basically copy themselves. Again, I don't believe that anything things are alive or intelligent, but they exhibit these behaviors as part of the probabilistic that's kind of scary. So there's a lot to be done there. But yeah, we worked on this, the group that I do foresight with Arizona State University threat casting lab. We've done some work for the Secret Service and for NATO and, yeah, there'll be, you know, large scale hackings on infrastructure. Basically the equivalent can be the equivalent can be the equivalent to a weapons of mass destruction attack. We saw how Russia targeted in 2014 the Ukrainian grid and hacked their nuclear plans. This is essential infrastructure more important than ever, giving global geopolitics say the least, so that needs to be under consideration. And I don't know, did I scare you enough yet? What are the things we've talked through here that, say the least about, you know, people being, you know, tricked and incepted by their AI girlfriends, boyfriends. You know people who are trying to AI companions. I can't possibly imagine what could go wrong there.   Trevor Freeman  42:29 I mean, it's just like, you know, I don't know if this is 15 or 20, or maybe even 25 years ago now, like, it requires a whole new level of understanding when we went from a completely analog world to a digital world and living online, and people, I would hope, to some degree, learned to be skeptical of things on the internet and learned that this is that next level. We now need to learn the right way of interacting with this stuff. And as you mentioned, building the sort of ethical code and ethical guidelines into these language models into the AI. Learning is pretty critical for our listeners. We do have a podcast episode on cybersecurity. I encourage you to go listen to it and reassure yourself that, yes, we are thinking about this stuff. And thanks, Greg, you've given us lots more to think about in that area as well. When it comes to again, looking back at utilities and managing the grid, one thing we're going to see, and we've talked a lot about this on the show, is a lot more distributed generation. So we're, you know, the days of just the central, large scale generation, long transmission lines that being the only generation on the grid. Those days are ending. We're going to see more distributed generations, solar panels on roofs, batteries. How does AI help a utility manage those better, interact with those better get more value out of those things?   Greg Lindsay  43:51 I guess that's sort of like an extension of some of the trends I was talking about earlier, which is the notion of, like, being able to model complex systems. I mean, that's effectively it, right, like you've got an increasingly complex grid with complex interplays between it, you know, figuring out how to basically based on real world performance, based on what you're able to determine about where there are correlations and codependencies in the grid, where point where choke points could emerge, where overloading could happen, and then, yeah, basically, sort of building that predictive system to Basically, sort of look for what kind of complex emergent behavior comes out of as you keep adding to it and and, you know, not just, you know, based on, you know, real world behavior, but being able to dial that up to 11, so to speak, and sort of imagine sort of these scenarios, or imagine, you know, what, what sort of long term scenarios look like in terms of, like, what the mix, how the mix changes, how the geography changes, all those sorts of things. So, yeah, I don't know how that plays out in the short term there, but it's this combination, like I'm imagining, you know, all these different components playing SimCity for real, if one will.   Trevor Freeman  44:50 And being able to do it millions and millions and millions of times in a row, to learn every possible iteration and every possible thing that might happen. Very cool. Okay. So last kind of area I want to touch on you did mention this at the beginning is the the overall power implications of of AI, of these massive data centers, obviously, at the utility, that's something we are all too keenly aware of. You know, the stat that that I find really interesting is a normal Google Search compared to, let's call it a chat GPT search. That chat GPT search, or decision making, requires 10 times the amount of energy as that just normal, you know, Google Search looking out from a database. Do you see this trend? I don't know if it's a trend. Do you see this continuing like AI is just going to use more power to do its decision making, or will we start to see more efficiencies there? And the data centers will get better at doing what they do with less energy. What is the what does the future look like in that sector?   Greg Lindsay  45:55 All the above. It's more, is more, is more! Is the trend, as far as I can see, and every decision maker who's involved in it. And again, Jensen Wong brought this up at the big Nvidia Conference. That basically he sees the only constraint on this continuing is availability of energy supplies keep it going and South by Southwest. And in some other conversations I've had with bandwidth companies, telcos, like laying 20 lumen technologies, United States is laying 20,000 new miles of fiber optic cables. They've bought 10% of Corning's total fiber optic output for the next couple of years. And their customers are the hyperscalers. They're, they're and they're rewiring the grid. That's why, I think it's interesting. This has something, of course, for thinking about utilities, is, you know, the point to point Internet of packet switching and like laying down these big fiber routes, which is why all the big data centers United States, the majority of them, are in north of them are in Northern Virginia, is because it goes back to the network hub there. Well, lumen is now wiring this like basically this giant fabric, this patchwork, which can connect data center to data center, and AI to AI and cloud to cloud, and creating this entirely new environment of how they are all directly connected to each other through some of this dedicated fiber. And so you can see how this whole pattern is changing. And you know, the same people are telling me that, like, yeah, the where they're going to build this fiber, which they wouldn't tell me exactly where, because it's very tradable, proprietary information, but, um, but it's following the energy supplies. It's following the energy corridors to the American Southwest, where there's solar and wind in Texas, where you can get natural gas, where you can get all these things. It will follow there. And I of course, assume the same is true in Canada as we build out our own sovereign data center capacity for this. So even, like deep seek, for example, you know, which is, of course, the hyper efficient Chinese model that spooked the markets back in January. Like, what do you mean? We don't need a trillion dollars in capex? Well, everyone's quite confident, including again, Jensen Wong and everybody else that, yeah, the more efficient models will increase this usage. That Jevons paradox will play out once again, and we'll see ever more of it. To me, the question is, is like as how it changes? And of course, you know, you know, this is a bubble. Let's, let's, let's be clear, data centers are a bubble, just like railroads in 1840 were a bubble. And there will be a bust, like not everyone's investments will pencil out that infrastructure will remain maybe it'll get cheaper. We find new uses for it, but it will, it will eventually bust at some point and that's what, to me, is interesting about like deep seeking, more efficient models. Is who's going to make the wrong investments in the wrong places at the wrong time? But you know, we will see as it gathers force and agents, as I mentioned. You know, they don't require, as much, you know, these monstrous training runs at City sized data centers. You know, meta wanted to spend $200 billion on a single complex, the open AI, Microsoft, Stargate, $500 billion Oracle's. Larry Ellison said that $100 billion is table stakes, which is just crazy to think about. And, you know, he's permitting three nukes on site. So there you go. I mean, it'll be fascinating to see if we have a new generation of private, private generation, right, like, which is like harkening all the way back to, you know, the early electrical grid and companies creating their own power plants on site, kind of stuff. Nicholas Carr wrote a good book about that one, about how we could see from the early electrical grid how the cloud played out. They played out very similarly. The AI cloud seems to be playing out a bit differently. So, so, yeah, I imagine that as well, but, but, yeah, well, inference happen at the edge. We need to have more distributed generation, because you're gonna have AI agents that are going to be spending more time at the point of request, whether that's a laptop or your phone or a light post or your autonomous vehicle, and it's going to need more of that generation and charging at the edge. That, to me, is the really interesting question. Like, you know, when these current generation models hit their limits, and just like with Moore's law, like, you know, you have to figure out other efficiencies in designing chips or designing AIS, how will that change the relationship to the grid? And I don't think anyone knows quite for sure yet, which is why they're just racing to lock up as many long term contracts as they possibly can just get it all, core to the market.   Trevor Freeman  49:39 Yeah, it's just another example, something that comes up in a lot of different topics that we cover on this show. Everything, obviously, is always related to the energy transition. But the idea that the energy transition is really it's not just changing fuel sources, like we talked about earlier. It's not just going from internal combustion to a battery. It's rethinking the. Relationship with energy, and it's rethinking how we do things. And, yeah, you bring up, like, more private, massive generation to deal with these things. So really, that whole relationship with energy is on scale to change. Greg, this has been a really interesting conversation. I really appreciate it. Lots to pack into this short bit of time here. We always kind of wrap up our conversations with a series of questions to our guests. So I'm going to fire those at you here. And this first one, I'm sure you've got lots of different examples here, so feel free to give more than one. What is a book that you've read that you think everybody should read?   Greg Lindsay  50:35 The first one that comes to mind is actually William Gibson's Neuromancer, which is which gave the world the notion of cyberspace and so many concepts. But I think about it a lot today. William Gibson, Vancouver based author, about how much in that book is something really think about. There is a digital twin in it, an agent called the Dixie flatline. It's like a former program where they cloned a digital twin of him. I've actually met an engineering company, Thornton Thomas Eddie that built a digital twin of one of their former top experts. So like that became real. Of course, the matrix is becoming real the Turing police. Yeah, there's a whole thing in there where there's cops to make sure that AIS don't get smarter. I've been thinking a lot about, do we need Turing police? The EU will probably create them. And so that's something where you know the proof, again, of like science fiction, its ability in world building to really make you think about these implications and help for contingency planning. A lot of foresight experts I work with think about sci fi, and we use sci fi for exactly that reason. So go read some classic cyberpunk, everybody.   Trevor Freeman  51:32 Awesome. So same question. But what's a movie or a show that you think everybody should take a look at?   Greg Lindsay  51:38 I recently watched the watch the matrix with ideas, which is fun to think about, where the villains are, agents that villains are agents. That's funny how that terms come back around. But the other one was thinking about the New Yorker recently read a piece on global demographics and the fact that, you know, globally, less and less children. And it made several references to Alfonso Quons, Children of Men from 2006 which is, sadly, probably the most prescient film of the 21st Century. Again, a classic to watch, about imagining in a world where we don't where you where you lose faith in the future, what happens, and a world that is not having children as a world that's losing faith in its own future. So that's always haunted me.   Trevor Freeman  52:12 It's funny both of those movies. So I've got kids as they get, you know, a little bit older, a little bit older, we start introducing more and more movies. And I've got this list of movies that are just, you know, impactful for my own adolescent years and growing up. And both matrix and Children of Men are on that list of really good movies that I just need my kids to get a little bit older, and then I'm excited to watch with them. If someone offered you a free round trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Greg Lindsay  52:40 I would go to Venice, Italy for the Architecture Biennale, which I will be on a plane in May, going to anyway. And the theme this year is intelligence, artificial, natural and collective. So it should be interesting to see the world's brightest architects. Let's see what we got. But yeah, Venice, every time, my favorite city in the world.   Trevor Freeman  52:58 Yeah, it's pretty wonderful. Who is someone that you admire?   Greg Lindsay  53:01 Great question. I was thinking. I was thinking about Emory Levin's earlier with this one too. I think about him, because Emery Levin's in, like, energy discourse. Just to be thematic about this is, I think, all the time about his essay from, I think 1976 in foreign affairs, the hard and soft path, I think he called them, which is the idea that, yeah, that in the 70s, before I was born imagining that we could take the soft path of renewables and infinite energy abundance, or we take the hard path of fossil fuels, and we are still taking the hard path globally. It feels like back in the United States, have definitely taken the hard path. So I think about a lot because he was the first one to really think about energy, particularly in the 70s, such a dark decade for energy, from a framing of abundance, and that we got this and, you know, that we simply had to make choices policy and otherwise. And you know, I guess I'm hopeful that we can still make those choices, but, but, yeah, he was such an early and bright voice in this entire discourse.   Trevor Freeman  53:52 And finally, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about?   Greg Lindsay  53:58 Uh, when it comes to energy, I guess I'm really excited. I hadn't thought about it this way, but I guess I'm kind of excited the idea that nuclear is back on the table. I grew up in Illinois, and, like Illinois, I think, is one of the highest state penetrations of nuclear plants. Like nuclear cooling towers were something that I saw growing up. Obviously, you know, nuclear scares people. When you have, you know, industrial accidents that could last a million years. It's kind of scary, but, but, yeah, it's interesting to see that, like all those advances on in theory, thorium reactors and modular reactors are finding purchase with all these tech company hyperscalers that are willing to throw money at the problem. So, so yeah, so I think you know, anything that keeps more coal and natural gas from coming online and fits clean energy clean electrons, let's do it.   Trevor Freeman  54:39 Yeah, I totally agree, Greg. Thanks very much for your time. Appreciate it. This has been a great conversation.   Greg Lindsay  54:44 Thanks for having a lot of fun!   Trevor Freeman  54:46 Awesome. Take care. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from. You, whether it's feedback comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].

Summer rewind: Scott Demark, President and CEO of Zibi Community Utility, joins thinkenergy to discuss how our relationship with energy is changing. With two decades of expertise in clean energy and sustainable development, Scott suggests reimagining traditional energy applications for heating and cooling. He shares how strategic energy distribution can transform urban environments, specifically how district energy systems optimize energy flow between buildings for a greener future. Listen in.   Related links   ●     Scott Demark on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-demark-83640473/ ●     Zibi Community Utility: https://zibi.ca/ ●     Markham District Energy Inc: https://www.markhamdistrictenergy.com/ ●     One Planet Living: https://www.bioregional.com/one-planet-living ●     Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ ●     Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405    To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl    To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/  --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited    Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa    Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod  ---- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.   Trevor Freeman  00:55 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydro ottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back one of the overarching aspects of the energy transition that we have talked about several times on this show is the need to change our relationship with energy, to rethink the standard way of doing things when it comes to heating and cooling and transportation, et cetera. This change is being driven by our need to decarbonize and by the ongoing evolution and improvement of technology, more things are becoming available to us as technology improves. On the decarbonization front, we know that electrification, which is switching from fossil fuel combustions to electricity for things like space and water heating, vehicles, et cetera, is one of the most effective strategies. But in order to switch out all the end uses to an electric option, so swapping out furnaces and boilers for heat pumps or electric boilers, switching all gas cars to EVs, et cetera, in order to do that in a way that is affordable and efficient and can be supported by our electricity grid. We need to think about multi strategy approaches, so we can't just continue to have this one way power grid where every home, every business, every warehouse or office tower satisfies all of its energy needs all the time directly from the grid with no adaptability. That isn't the best approach. It's not going to be affordable or efficient. We're not going to be able to do it fast enough. The multi strategy approach takes into account things like distributed energy resources, so solar and storage, et cetera, which we've talked about many times on this show, but it also includes approaches like district energy. So district energy is rethinking how energy flows between adjacent buildings, looking for opportunities to capture excess energy or heat from one source and use that to support another, and that is the focus of today's conversation to help us dive into this topic, I'm really happy to welcome Scott demark to the show. Scott has been a champion of sustainability, clean energy solutions and energy efficiency in the Ottawa real estate and development industry for over 20 years now, he has overseen many high performance development projects, and was one of the driving forces behind the Zibi development in downtown Ottawa, and most applicable for today's conversation the renewable district energy system that provides heating and cooling to the Zibi site. Scott is the president and CEO of the Zibi community utility, as well as a partner at Theia partners. Scott the Mark, welcome to the show. Thanks. Nice to see you. Trevor, so Scott, why don't we start with definitions are always a good place to start. So when we talk about a district energy system, give us a high level overview of what exactly that means.   Scott Demark  04:15 Sure a district energy system is, is simply the connection or interconnection of thermal energy sources, thermal energy sinks. And so really, in practical terms, it means, instead of buildings having their own furnace and cooling system, buildings connect to a hydronic loop. A hydronic loop is just pipes filled with water, and then the heat or the cooling is made somewhere else, and that heat or lack of heat cooling is in a pipe. They push the pipe to the building, and then the pipe extracts the heat, or rejects the heat to that loop. And so it's simply an interconnection of. Uh, as it forces in sinks for federal energy.   Trevor Freeman  05:03 And I guess one of the important concepts here is that buildings often create heat, not just through a furnace or not just through the things that are meant to create heat, but, you know, server racks, computer server racks, generate a lot of heat, and that heat has to go somewhere. So oftentimes we're cooling buildings to remove heat that's being created in those buildings, and then other buildings nearby need to be heated in order to make that space comfortable.   Scott Demark  05:31 Is that fair to say? Yeah, absolutely. Trevor, so, a an office building in the city of Ottawa, big old government office building, you'll see a pretty big plume on the roof in the wintertime. That's not just kind of the flue gas from a boiler, but rather it is actually chillers are running inside to make cooling, and they're just selling that heat to the atmosphere, even on the coldest day of the year. So it's people, you know, people are thermal load. Computers are thermal load, and so is solar gain. You know, January is pretty dark period for us, meaning low angle sun, but by this time in a year, you know, at the end of February, there's a lot of heat in that sun. So a glass building absorbs a lot of sun an office building will lead cooling on the sunny side of that building a lot of the time, even in the dead of   Trevor Freeman  06:18 winter, yeah. So a district system, then, is taking advantage of the fact that heat exists, and we don't necessarily need to either burn fossil fuels, or, even if it's a, you know, a clean system, we don't have to expend energy to create heat, or create as much heat if we could move that heat around from where it's kind of naturally occurring to where we need   Scott Demark  06:41 it. That's right at the very core of a district energy system. You're going to move heat from a place that it's not wanted to a place that it is wanted. And so in our example of the office building, you know, on the February day with the sun shining in and the computers all running, that building's getting rid of heat. But right next door, say, there's a 20 story condo. Well, that 20 story condo needs heating and it also needs domestic hot water. So year round, domestic hot water represents 30, 35% of the heating load of any residential building, so at all times. So a district energy system allows you to take that heat away from the office building and give it to the residential building, instead of making the heat and and dissipating that heat to the atmosphere in the office building. So, yeah, it's, it's really a way to move, you know, from sources to sinks. That's, that's what a district energy system does well.   Trevor Freeman  07:37 So we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but let's dive right into, you know, we talk a lot on the show about the energy transition this, this push to one, move away from fossil fuel combustion to meet our energy needs, and two, shifting from a kind of static, centralized energy system like we have right now, big generators, large transmission lines, et cetera, to more of a two way flow, distributed energy system. What is the role of district energy systems within that transition? How do they help us get closer to that sort of reality that we talk about?   Scott Demark  08:15 I think the biggest way that they help is economies of scale. Okay, so by that, I'll explain that. Imagine there's a lot of technology that's been around a long time that is very scalable to the building level, but most of them are fossil fire. Okay, so the the cheapest way to heat a building in Ottawa is to put a gas fired boiler in. That's the cheapest capital cost, first cost, and it's also the cheapest operating cost, is to put a gas boiler in that industry is well established. There's lots of trades who could do it. There's lots of producers who make the boilers. When you start to try and think about the energy transition and think about what you may do to be different, to be lower carbon, or to be zero carbon, those industries are, are just starting right? Those industries don't exist. They don't have the same depth, and so they don't have the same cost structure, and oftentimes they don't scale well down to the building. And therefore a district energy system aggregates a bunch of load, and so you can provide a thermal energy so at scale that becomes affordable. And that is, you know, a very good example of that would be where, you know, you might want to go and and recover heat from some process. And we'll talk about Zibi as the example. But if you want to go recover heat from some process and bring it in, it doesn't make sense to run a pipeline to a source to heat one building. You can't make financial sense of it, but if you're heating 20 buildings, that pipeline, all of a sudden makes sense to take waste heat from somewhere, to move it somewhere else. The other advantage is that truly, district energy systems are agnostic to their inputs and outputs for heat. So once you. Establish that hydronic loop, that interconnection of water pipes between buildings. What the source and what the source is doesn't matter. So you may have, at one point, built a district energy system, and Markham District Energy System is a great example of this. Markham district energy system was built on the concept of using a co generation facility. So they burned natural gas to make electricity. They sold electricity to the grid, and they captured all the waste heat from that generation, and they fed it into a district energy system. Well here we are, 20 plus years later, and they're going to replace that system, that fossil fired system Augment, not fully replaced, but mostly replace that system with a sewer coupled energy recovery and drive those heat recovery chillers to a sewer system. So they're putting a very green solution in place of a former fossil solution. They don't to rip up the pipes. They don't have to change anything in the buildings. They only have to change that central concept now, again, Markham could never do that at a one building scale. They're only that at the community scale.   Trevor Freeman  11:08 So you mentioned, I want to pick on something you said there. You talked about a sewer heat energy system. They're pulling heat from the sewer. Just help our listeners understand high level kind of, why is there heat there for us to pull like, what's the what's the source there?   Scott Demark  11:26 Yeah, so when we shower, when we flush toilets, all, all of that is introducing heat into a sewer system. So we're collecting heat from everybody's house into the sewer system. The sewer system also sits below the frost line. So call it Earth coupled. You know, it's the earth in Ottawa below the frost line sits around eight, eight and a half c and so at that temperature and the temperature of flushing toilets we we essentially get a sewer temperature in the on the coldest day of the year, but it's around 1010, and a half degrees Celsius. And obviously, for lots of the year, it's much warmer than that. And so I think, you know, a lot of people are kind of familiar with the concept of geo exchange energy, or that. Lot of people call it geothermal. But geo exchange where you might drill down into the earth, and you're taking advantage of that 888, and a half degrees Celsius. So you're exchanging heat. You can reject heat to the earth, or you can absorb heat from the earth. Well, this is the same idea, but you accept or reject from this sewer. But because the sewer is relatively shallow, it is cheaper to access that energy, and because it's warm, and on the coldest day, a couple of degrees make a big difference. Trevor and most of the years so much warmer, you're really in a very good position to extract that heat, and that's all it is. You. You are just accepting or rejecting heat. You don't use the sewage itself. It doesn't come into your building. You have a heat exchanger in between. But that's what you do.   Trevor Freeman  12:58 I agree. And we've talked before on the show about the idea that you know, for an air source, heat pump, for example, you don't need a lot of heat energy to extract energy from the air. It can be cold outside, and there is still heat energy in the air that you can pull and use that to heat a building, heat water, whatever. So same concept, except you've got a much warmer source of energy, I guess. Yeah, exactly. And you know, Trevor, when you look at the efficiency curves of those air source heat pumps, you know, they kind of drop off a cliff at minus 20. Minus 22 In fact, you know, five or six years ago, they that that was dropping off at minus 10. So we've come a long way in air source heat pumps. But imagine on that coldest, coldest day of the year, you're still your source is well above zero, and therefore your efficiency. So the amount of electricity you need to put into the heat pump to get out the heat that you need is much lower, so it's a way more efficient heat exchange. Great. Thanks for that, Scott. I know that's a bit of a tangent here, but always cool to talk about different ways that we're coming up with to heat our buildings. So back to district energy, we've talked through some of the benefits of the system. If I'm a building owner and I'm have the decision to connect to a system that's there, or have my own standalone, you know, traditional boiler, whatever the case may be, or even in a clean energy want to heat pump, whatever. What are the benefits of being on a district system versus having my own standalone system for just my building?   Scott Demark  14:30 Yeah, so when you're wearing the developers hat, you know they're really looking at it financially, if they have other goals around sustainability. Great that will factor into it, but most of them are making decisions around this financially. So it needs to compete with that. That first cost that we talked about the easiest ways, is boilers, gas fired boilers is the cheapest way. And so they're going to look to see it at how. Does this compare to that? And so I think that's the best way to frame it for you. And so the difference here is that you need to install in your building a cooling system and a heating system. In Ottawa, that cooling system is only used for a few months a year, and it's very expensive. It takes up space, whether you're using a chiller and a cooling tower on the roof, or using a dry cooler, it takes up roof space, and it also takes up interior space. If you do have a cooling tower, you have a lot of maintenance for that. You need to turn it on and turn it off in the spring, on and fall, etc, just to make sure all that happens. And you need to carry the life cycle of that boiler plant you need to bring gas infrastructure into your building. You generally need to put that gas boiler plant high in your building, so, so up near the top, and that's for purposes of venting that properly. Now, that's taking real estate, right? And it's taking real estate on the area that's kind of most advantageous, worth the most money. So you might lose a penthouse to have a boiler and chiller room up there. And you also, of course, lose roof space. And today, we really do try to take advantage of those rooftop patios and things. Amenities are pretty important in buildings. And so when I compare that to district energy at the p1 level p2 level in your building, you're going to have a small room, and I really do mean small where the energy transfer takes place, you'll have some heat exchangers. And small you might have a space, you know, 10 or 12 feet by 15 to 18 feet would be big enough for a 30 story tower. So a small room where you do the heat exchange and then Trevor, you don't have anything in your building for plant that you would normally look after. So when you look at the pro forma for owning your building over the lifetime of it, you don't have to maintain boilers. You don't have to have boiler insurance. You don't have to maintain your chillers. You don't have to have lifecycle replacement on any of these products. You don't need anybody operating, those checking in on the pressure vessels. None of that has to happen. All of that happens on the district energy system. So you're really taking something you own and operate and replacing that with a service. So district energy is a service, and what, what we promised to deliver is the heating you need and the cooling you need. 24/7 you second thing you get is more resilience. And I'll explain that a little bit. Is that in a in a normal building, if you if the engineers looked at it and said you need two boilers to keep your building warm, then you're probably going to install three. And that is kind of this n plus one sort of idea, so that if one boilers goes down, you have a spare and you need to maintain those. You need to pay for that. You need to maintain those, etc. But in district energy system, all that redundancy is done in the background. It's done by us, and we have significantly more redundancy than just n plus one in this example. But overall, you know, if you have 10 buildings on your district energy system, each of those would have had n plus one. We don't have n plus 10 in the plant. And so overall, the cost is lower, I would say, if you look at it globally, except the advantages you do have better than N plus one in the plan, so we have higher resiliency at a lower cost.   Trevor Freeman  18:26 So we know there's no such thing as a miracle solution that works in all cases. What are the the best use cases for district energy system? Where does it make a lot of sense.   Scott Demark  18:37 Yeah, in terms some, in some ways the easiest thing, spray work doesn't make sense. So, so it doesn't make sense in sprawling low rise development. So the cost of that hydronic loop, those water pipes, is high. They have to fit in the roadway. It's civil work, etc. And so you do need density. That doesn't mean it has to be high rise density. You know, if you look at Paris, France, six stories, district energy, no problem. There's there's lots and lots of customers for that scale of building. It doesn't have to be all high rise, but it does. District energy does not lend itself well to our sprawling style of development. It's much more suited to a downtown setting. It also kind of thrives where there's mixed use, you know, I think the first example we're talking about is office building shedding heat, residential building needing heat, you know, couple that with an industrial building shedding heat. You know, the these various uses, a variety of uses on a district energy system is the best because its biggest advantage is sharing energy, not making energy. And so a disparity of uses is the best place to use that, I think the other, the other thing to think about, and this is harder in Canada than the rest of the world. Is that, you know, it's harder on a retrofit basis, from a cost perspective, than it is in a in a new community where you can put this in as infrastructure, day one, you're going to make a big difference. And I'll, you know, give a shout out to British Columbia and the Greater Vancouver area. So the district, you know, down in the Lower Mainland, they, they kind of made this observation and understood that if they were going to electrify then District Energy gave economies of scale to electrify that load. And they do a variety of things, but one of the things they do is, is kind of district geo exchange systems, so, so big heat pumps coupled to big fields, and then bring heat a bunch of buildings. But these are Greenfield developments Trevor. So as they expand their suburbs, they do need to build the six stories. They very much have kind of density around parks concepts. So now Park becomes a geo field, density around the geo field, but this infrastructure is going in the same time as the water pipes. It's going in at the same time as the roads, the sidewalks, etc, you can dramatically reduce your cost, your first cost related to that hydro loop, if you're putting it in the same time you're doing the rest of the services.   Trevor Freeman  21:15 So we're not likely to see, you know, residential neighborhoods with single family homes or multi unit homes, whatever, take advantage of this. But that sort of low rise, mid rise, that's going to be more of a good pick for this. And like you said, kind of development is the time to do this. You mentioned other parts of the world. So district energy systems aren't exactly widespread. In Canada, we're starting to see more of them pop up. What about the rest of the world? Are there places in the world where we see a lot more of this, and they've been doing this for a long time?   Scott Demark  21:47 Yeah. So I'd almost say every everywhere in the northern hemisphere, except North America, has done much more of this. And you know, we really look to kind of Scandinavia as the gold standard of this. You look to Sweden, you look to Denmark, you look to Germany. Even there's, there's a lot of great examples of this, and they are typically government owned. So they are often public private partnerships, but they would be various levels of government. So you know, if you, if you went to Copenhagen, you'd see that the municipality is an owner. But then their equivalent of a province or territory is, is actually a big part of it, too. And when they built their infrastructure ages ago, they did not have an easy source of fossil fuels, right? And so they need to think about, how can we do this? How can we share heat? How can we centralize the recovery of heat? How can we make sure we don't waste any and this has just been ingrained in them. So there's massive, massive District Energy loops, interconnecting loops, some owned by municipalities, some of them probably, if you build a factory, part of the concept of your factory, part of the pro forma of your factory is, how much can I sell my waste heat for? And so a factory district might have a sear of industrial partners who own a district energy loop and interfaces with the municipal loop, all sort of sharing energy and dumping it in. And so that's, you know, that's what you would study. That's, that's where we would want to be. And the heart of it is just that, as I said, we've really had, you know, cheap or, you know, really cheap fossil fuels. We've had no price on pollution. And therefore what really hasn't needed to happen here, and we're starting to see the need for that to happen here.   Trevor Freeman  23:46 It's an interesting concept to think of, you know, bringing that factory example in, instead of waste heat or heat as a byproduct of your process being a problem that you need to deal with, something, you have to figure out a way to get rid of it becomes almost an asset. It's a it's a, you know, convenient commodity that's being produced regardless, that you can now look to sell and monetize.   Scott Demark  24:10 Yeha, you go back to the idea of, like, what are the big benefits of district energy? Is that, like, if that loop exists and somebody knows that one of the things the factory produces is heat, well, that's a commodity I produce, and I can, I can sell it if I have a way to sell it right here, you know, we're going to dissipate it to a river. We may dissipate it to the atmosphere. We're going to get rid of it. Like you said, it's, it's, it's waste in their minds, and in Europe, that is absolutely not waste.   Trevor Freeman  24:36 And it coming back to that, you know, question of, where does this make sense? You talked about mixed use, and it's also like the, you know, the temporal mixed use of someone that is producing a lot of heat during the day, when the next door residential building is empty, then when they switch, when the factory closes and the shift is over and everybody comes home from work. So that's when that building needs heat, that's when they want to be then taking that heat two buildings next to each other that both need heat at the same time is not as good a use cases when it's offset like that.   Scott Demark  25:10 Yeah, that's true. And lots of District Energy Systems consider kind of surges and storage. I know our system at CB has, has kind of a small storage system related to the domestic hot water peak load. However, you can also think of the kilometers and kilometers and kilometers of pipes full of water as a thermal battery, right? So, so you actually are able to even out those surges you you let the temperature the district energy system rise when that factory is giving all out all kinds of heat, it's rising even above the temperature you have to deliver it at. And then when that heat comes, you can draw down that temperature and let the whole district energy system normalize to its temperature again. So you do have an innate battery in the in the water volume that sits in the district energy system, very cool.   Trevor Freeman  26:04 So you've mentioned Zibi a couple of times, and I do want to get into that as much as we're talking about other parts of the world. You know having longer term district energy systems. Zibi, community utility is a great example, right here in Ottawa, where you and I are both based of a district energy system. Before we get into that, can you, just for our listeners that are not familiar with Zibi, give us a high level overview of of what that community is, its location, you know, the goals of the community, and then we'll talk about the energy side of things.   Scott Demark  26:34 Sure. So Zibi was formerly Domtar paper mills. It's 34 acres, and it is in downtown Ottawa and downtown Gatineau. About a third of the land masses is islands on the Ontario side, and two thirds of the land mass is on the shore, the north shore of the Ottawa River in Gatineau, both downtown, literally in the shadows of Parliament. It is right downtown. It was industrial for almost 200 years. Those paper mills shut down in the 90s and the early 2000s and my partners and I pursued that to turn it from kind of this industrial wasteland, walled off, fenced off, area that no one could go into. What we're hoping will be kind of the world's most sustainable urban community, and so at build out, it will house, you know, about six, 7000 people. It will be four and a half million square feet, 4.24 point 4, million square feet of development. It is master planned and approved and has built about, I think we're, at 1.1 million square feet. So we're about quarter built out now. 10 buildings are done and connected to the district energy system there. And really, it's, it's an attempt to sort of recover land that was really quite destroyed. You can imagine it was a pretty polluted site. So the giant remediation plan, big infrastructure plan, we modeled this, this overall sustainability concept, over a program called one planet living which has 10 principles of sustainability. So you know, you and I are talking a lot about carbon today, but there's also very important aspects about affordability and social sustainability and lifestyle, and all of those are incorporated into the one planet program, and encourage people to look up one planet living and understand what it is, and look at the commitments that we've made at CV to create a sustainable place. We issue a report every year, kind of our own report card that's reviewed by a third party, that explains where we are on our on our mission to achieve our goal of the world's most sustainable   Trevor Freeman  28:57 community. Yeah. And so I do encourage people to look at one planet living. Also have a look at, you know, the Zibi website, and it's got the Master Plan and the vision of what that community will be. And I've been down there, it's already kind of coming along. It's amazing to see the progress compared to who I think you described it well, like a bit of an industrial wasteland at the heart of one of the most beautiful spots in the city. It was really a shame what it used to be. And it's great to see kind of the vision of what it can become. So that's awesome.   Scott Demark  29:26 Yeah, and Trevor, especially now that the parks are coming along. You know, we worked really closely with the NCC to integrate the shoreline of ZV to the existing, you know, bike path networks and everything. And, you know, two of the three shoreline parks are now completed and open to the public and and they're stunning. And, you know, so many Ottawa people have not been down there because it's not a place you think about, but it's one of the few places in Ottawa and Gatineau where you can touch the water, you know, like it's, it's, it's stunning. Yeah, very, very cool.   Trevor Freeman  29:57 Okay, so the. The the next part of that, of course, is energy. And so there is a district energy system, one of the first kind of, or the most recent big energy. District Energy Systems in Ottawa. Tell us a little bit about how you are moving energy and heating the Zibi site.   Scott Demark  30:17 Yeah. So, first I'll say, you know, we, we, we studied different ways to get to net zero. You know, we had, we had a goal of being a zero carbon community. There are low carbon examples, but a zero carbon community is quite a stretch. And even when you look at the Scandinavian examples, the best examples, they're missing their they're missing their energy goals, largely because some of the inputs that are District Energy System remain fossil, but also because they have trouble getting the performance out of the buildings. And so we looked at this. We also know from our experience that getting to zero carbon at the building scale in Ottawa is very, very difficult. Our climate's tough, super humid, super hot summer, very cold, very dry, winter, long winter. So it's difficult at the building scale. It's funny Trevor, because you'd actually have an easier time getting to zero carbon or a passive house standard in affordable housing than you do at market housing, and that's because affordable housing has a long list of people who want to move in and pay rents. You can get some subsidies for capital, and the people who are willing to pay rent are good with smaller windows, thicker walls, smaller units, and pass trust needs, all those kinds of things. So when down at Zibi, you're really selling views. You're competing with people on the outside of Zibi, you're building almost all glass buildings. And so it's really difficult to find a way to get to zero carbon on the building scale. So that moved us to district energy for all the reasons we've talked about today already. And so when we looked at it for Zibi, you really look at the ingredients you have. One of the great things we have is we're split over the border. It's also a curse. But split over the border is really interesting, because you cannot move electricity over that border, but you can move thermal energy over that border. And so for us, in thinking about electrifying thermal energy, we realized that if we did the work in Quebec, where there is clean and affordable electricity, we could we could turn that into heat, and then we could move heat to Ontario. We could move chilled water to Ontario. So that's kind of ingredient, one that we had going for us there. The second is that there used to be three mills. So originally, don't target three mills. They sold one mill. It changed hands a few times, but It now belongs to Kruger. They make tissue there so absorbent things, Kleenexes and toilet paper, absorbent, anything in that tissue process. That's a going concern. So you can see that on our skyline. You can see, on cold days, big plumes of waste heat coming out of it. And so we really saw that as our source, really identified that as our source. And how could we do that? So going back to the economies of scale, is could we send a pipeline from Kruger, about a kilometer away, to Zibi? And so when we were purchasing the land, we were looking at all the interconnections of how the plants used to be realized. There's some old pipelines, some old easements, servitudes, etc. And so when we bought the land, we actually bought all of those servitudes too, including a pipeline across the bridge. Canadian energy regulator licensed across the bridge into Ontario. And so we mixed all these ingredients up, you know, in a pot and came up with our overall scheme. And so that overall scheme is is relatively simple. We built an energy recovery station at Kruger where, just before their effluent water, like when they're finished in their process, goes back to the river. We have a heat exchanger there. We extract heat. We push that heat in a pipe network over to Zibi. At Zibi, we can upgrade that heat using heat recovery chillers to a useful temperature for us, that's about 40 degrees Celsius, and we push that across the bridge to Ontario, all of our buildings in Ontario then have fan coil units. They use that 40 degree heat to heat buildings. The return side of that comes back to Quebec. And then on the Quebec side, we have a loop. And all of our buildings in the Quebec side then use heat pumps so we extract the last bit of heat. So imagine you you've returned from a fan coil, but you're still slightly warm. That slightly warm water is enough to drive a heat pump inside the buildings. And then finally, that goes back to Kruger again, and Kruger heats it back up with their waste heat and comes back. So that's our that's our heating loop. The cooling side is coupled to the Ottawa River. And so instead of us, we. Rejecting heat to the atmosphere through cooling towers. Our coolers are actually coupled to the river. That's a very tight environmental window that you can operate in. So we worked with the Ministry of the Environment climate change in Quebec to get our permit to do it. We can only be six degrees difference to the river, but our efficiency is on average, like on an annual basis, more than double what it would be to a cooling tower for the same load. So we're river coupled, with respect to cooling for the whole development, and we're coupled to Kruger for heating for the whole development. And what that allows us to do is eliminate fossil fuels. Our input is clean Quebec electricity, and our output is heating and cooling.   Trevor Freeman  35:44 So none of the buildings, you know, just for our listeners, none of the buildings have any sort of fossil fuel combustion heating equipment. You don't have boilers or anything like that. Furnaces in these in these buildings?   Scott Demark  35:54 No boilers, no chillers, no. that's awesome. And   Trevor Freeman  35:58 That's awesome. And just for full transparency, I should have mentioned this up front. So the Zibi community utility is a partnership between Zibi and Hydro Ottawa, who our listeners will know that I work for, and this was really kind of a joint venture to figure out a different approach to energy at the Zibi site.   Scott Demark  36:16 Yeah, that's right. Trevor, I mean the concept, the concept was born a long time ago now, but the concept was born by talking to hydro Ottawa about how we might approach this whole campus differently. You know, one of hydro Ottawa companies makes electricity, of course, Chaudière Falls, and so that was part of the thinking we thought of, you know, micro grids and islanding this and doing a lot of different things. When Ford came in, and we were not all the way there yet, and made changes to Green Energy Act, it made it challenging for us to do the electricity side, but we had already well advanced the thermal side, and hydro, you know, hydro makes a good partner in this sort of thing, when a when a developer tells someone, I'd like you to buy a condo, and by the way, I'm also the district energy provider that might put some alarm bells up, but you put a partnership in there with a trusted, long term utility partner and explain that, you know, it is in the in the public interest. They're not going to jack rates or mess with things, and then obviously just hydro has had such a long operating record operating experience that they really brought sort of an operations and long term utility mindset to our district energy system.   Trevor Freeman  37:35 So looking at a system like the Zippy community utility or other district energy systems. Is this the kind of thing that can scale up over time? And, you know, I bring this up because you hear people talk about, you know, a network of district energy systems across a city or across a big geographic area. Are these things that can be interconnected and linked, or does it make more sense as standalone district energy systems in those conditions that you talked about earlier.   Scott Demark  38:06 Very much the former Trevor like and that's, you know, that's where, you know, places like Copenhagen are today. It's that, you know, there was, there was one district energy system, then there was another, then they got interconnected, then the third got added. And then they use a lot of incineration there in that, in that part of the world, clean incineration for garbage. And so then an incinerator is coming online. And so that incinerators waste heat is going to be fed with a new district energy loop, and some other factory is going to use the primary heat from that, and then the secondary heat is going to come into the dictionary system. Disciplinary system. So these things are absolutely expandable. They're absolutely interconnectable. There are temperature profiles. There's modern, modern thoughts on temperature profiles compared to older systems. Most of the old, old systems were steam, actually, which is not the most efficient thing the world. But that's where they started and so now you can certainly interconnect them. And I think that the example at Zibi is a decent one, because we do have two kinds of systems there. You know, I said we have fan coil units in in the Ontario side, but we have heat pumps on the other side. Well, those two things, they can coexist, right? That's there. Those two systems are operating together. Because the difference, you know, the difference from the customer's perspective in those two markets are different, and the same can be true in different parts of the city or when different sources and sinks are available. So it is not one method of doing district energy systems. What you do is you examine the ingredients you have. I keep saying it, but sources and sinks? How can I look at these sources and sinks in a way that I can interconnect them and make sense? And sometimes that means that a source or a sink might be another district energy system.   Trevor Freeman  39:59 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, systems that maybe work in parallel to each other, in cooperation with each other. Again, it's almost that temporal need where there's load high on at one point in time and low on the other point in time. Sharing is a great opportunity.   Scott Demark  40:14 Yeah, absolutely great.   Trevor Freeman  40:17 Okay, last question for you here, Scott, what is needed, maybe from a regulatory or a policy lens to encourage more implementation of district energy systems. How do we see more of these things happen here in Canada or in   Scott Demark  40:32 North America? The best way to put this, the bureaucracy has been slow to move, is, is what I'll say, and I'll use Zibi as that example. When we, when we pitched the district energy system at Zibi, we had to approach the City of Ottawa, and we had to approach the city of Gatineau, the City of Ottawa basically said to us, No, you can't put those in our streets. Engineering just said, no, no, no, no. And so what we did at Zibi is we actually privatized our streets in order to see our vision through, because, because Ottawa wasn't on board, the city of Gatineau said, Hmm, I'm a little worried. I want you to write protocols of how you will access your pipes, not our pipes. I want to understand where liability ends and starts and all of this kind of stuff. And we worked through that detail slowly, methodically, with the city of Gatineau, and we came to a new policy on how district energy could be in a public street and Zibi streets are public on the Gatineau side today. You know, come forward 10 years here, and the City of Ottawa has a working group on how to incorporate District Energy pipes into streets. We've been able to get the City of Ottawa to come around to the idea that we will reject and accept heat from their sewer. You know, hydro Ottawa, wholly owned company of the City of Ottawa, has an active business in district energy. So Trevor, we've come really far, but it's taken a long time. And so if you ask me, How can we, how can accelerate district energy, I think a lot of it has to do with the bureaucracy at municipalities. And you know, we're we see so much interest from the Federation of Canadian municipalities, who was the debt funder for ZCU. We have multiple visits from people all over Canada, coming to study and look at this as an example. And I'm encouraged by that. But it's also, it's also not rocket science. We need to understand that putting a pipe in a street is kind of a just, just a little engineering problem to solve, whereas putting, you know, burning fossil fuels for these new communities and putting in the atmosphere like the genies out of the bottle, right? Like and unfortunately, I think for a lot of bureaucrats, the challenge at the engineering level is that that pipe in the street is of immediate, complex danger to solving that problem, whereas it's everybody's problem that the carbons in the atmosphere. So if we could accelerate that, if we could focus on the acceleration of standards around District Energy pipes and streets, the rights of a district energy company to exist, and not to rant too much, but give you an example, is that a developer is required to put gas infrastructure into a new community, required, and yet you have to fight to get a district energy pipe in the street. So there needs to be a change of mindset there, and, and we're not there yet, but that's where we need to go.   Trevor Freeman  43:54 Yeah. Well, the interesting, you know, in 10 years, let's talk again and see how far we come. Hopefully not 10 years. Hopefully it's more like five, to see the kind of change that you've seen in the last decade. But I think that the direction is encouraging. The speed needs a little bit of work. But I'm always encouraged to see, yeah, things are changing or going in the right direction, just slowly. Well, Scott, we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, so as long as you're okay with it, I'll jump right into those. So the first question is, what is a book you've read that you think everybody should read?   Scott Demark  44:29 Nexus, which is by Harari. He's the same author that wrote sapiens. Lots of people be familiar with sapiens. And so Nexus is, is really kind of the history of information networks, like, how do we, how do we share and pass information? And kind of a central thesis is that, you know, information is, is neither knowledge nor truth. It is information, and it's talking a lot about in the age of AI. Uh, how are we going to manage to move information into truth or knowledge? And I think it, you know, to be honest, it kind of scared the shit out of me reading it kind of how, how AI is impacting our world and going to impact our world. And what I thought was kind of amazing about it was that he, he really has a pretty strong thesis around the erosion of democracy in this time. And it's, it was, it was really kind of scary because it was published before the 2024 election. And so it's, it's really kind of a, both a fascinating and scary read, and I think really something that everybody should get their head around.   Trevor Freeman  45:47 It's, yeah, there's a few of those books recently that I would clear or classify them as kind of dark and scary, but really important or really enlightening in some way. And it kind of helps you, you know, formalize a thought or a concept in your head and realize, hey, here's what's happening, or gives you that kind of the words to speak about it in this kind of fraught time we're in. So same question, but for a movie or a show, is there anything that you think everybody should watch.   Scott Demark  46:16 That's harder, I think, generally from watching something, it's for my downtime or own entertainment, and pushing my tastes on the rest of the world, maybe not a great idea. I if I, if I'm, if I'm kind of doing that, I tend to watch cooking shows, actually, Trevor so like, that's awesome. I like ugly, delicious. I love Dave Chang. I like, I like mind of a chef creativity partnership. So those kind of things I'd say more so if there was something to like that, I think somebody else should, should watch or listen to, I have, I have a real love for Malcolm Gladwell podcast, revisionist history. And so if I thought, you know, my watching habits are not going to going to expand anybody's brain, but I do think that Malcolm's perspective on life is really a healthy it's really healthy to step sideways and look at things differently. And I would suggest, if you have never listened to that podcast. Go to Episode One, season one, and start there. It's, it's, it's fantastic.   Trevor Freeman  47:26 Yeah, I agree. I'll echo that one. That's one of my favorites. If we were to offer you or not, but if we were to offer you a free round trip flight, anywhere in the world, where would you go?   Scott Demark  47:38 That's hard, so much flight guilt. You know.   Trevor Freeman  47:42 I know it's a hard assume that there's carbon offset to it.   Scott Demark  47:47 It's an electric plane.   Trevor Freeman  47:48 That's right, yeah.s   Scott Demark  47:49 My family, had a trip planned in 2020 to go to France and Italy. My two boys were kind of at the perfect age to do that. It would have been a really ideal trip. And so I've still never been to either those places. And if I had to pick one, probably Italy, I would really like to see Italy. I think it would be a fantastic place to go. So probably, probably Italy.   Trevor Freeman  48:12 My favorite trip that I've ever done with my wife and our six month old at the time was Italy. It was just phenomenal. It was a fantastic trip. Who's someone that you admire?   Scott Demark  48:25 I have a lot of people. Actually have a lot of people in this in this particular space, like, what would I work in that have brought me here to pick to pick one, though I'd probably say Peter Busby. So. Peter Busby is a mentor, a friend, now a business partner, but, but not earlier in my career. Peter Busby is a kind of a one of the four fathers, you know, if you will, of green design in Canada. He's an architect, Governor General's Award winning architect, actually. But I think what I what I really, really appreciate about Peter, and always will, is that he was willing to stand up in his peer group and say, Hey, we're not doing this right. And, you know, he did that. He did that in the early 80s, right? Like we're not talking he did it when it cost his business some clients. He did it when professors would speak out against him, and certainly the Canadian Association of architecture was not going to take any blame for the shitty buildings that have been built, right? And he did it, and I remember being at a conference where Peter was getting a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Canadian architects Association. And so he's standing up, and people are all super proud of him. They're talking about his big life. And he. He, he, he kind of belittled them all and said, You're not doing enough. We're not doing enough like he's still he's still there. He's still taking the blame for where things are, and that things haven't moved fast enough, and that buildings are a massive part of our carbon problem, and probably one of the easier areas to fix. You know, we're talking about electric planes. Well, that's a that's a lot more difficult than it is to recover energy from a factory to heat a community, right? I admire him. I learned things from him all the time. He's got a great book out at the moment, actually, and, yeah, he'd be right up there on my in my top list, awesome.   Trevor Freeman  50:44 What is something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about?   Scott Demark  50:48 You wished you asked me this before the election. I'm feeling a little dark. Trevor, I think there needs to be a price on pollution in the world needs to be a price on pollution in America, in Canada, and I'm worried about that going away. In light of that, I'm not I'm not super excited about different technologies at the moment. I think there are technologies that are helping us, there are technologies that are pushing us forward, but there's no like silver bullet. So, you know, a really interesting thing that's coming is kind of this idea that a small nuclear reactor, okay, very interesting idea. You could see its context in both localized electricity production, but all the heat also really good for district entry, okay, so that's an interesting tech. It obviously comes with complications around security and disposal, if you like, there's our nuclear industry has been allowed to drink like, it's all complicated. So I don't see one silver bullet in technology that I'm like, That's the answer. But what I do see, I'll go back to what we were talking about before is, you know, we had to turn this giant ship of bureaucracy towards new solutions. Okay, that's, that's what we had to do. And now that it's turned and we've got it towards the right course, I'm encouraged by that. I really am. You know, there are champions. And I'll, I'll talk about our city. You know, there's champions in the City of Ottawa who want to see this happen as younger people have graduated into roles and planning and other engineering roles there. They've grown up and gone to school in an age where they understand how critical this climate crisis is, and they're starting to be in positions of power and being in decision making. You know, a lot of my career, we're trying to educate people that there was a problem. Now, the people sitting in those chairs, it, they understand there's a problem, and what can they do about it? And so I am, I am excited that that the there is a next generation sitting in these seats, making decisions, the bureaucracy, the ship is, is almost on course to making this difference. So, so I do think that's encouraging. We have the technology. We really do. It's not rocket science. We just need to get through, you know, the bureaucracy barriers, and we need to find ways to properly finance it.   Trevor Freeman  53:22 Great. I think that's a good place to wrap it up. Scott, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate this conversation and shedding a little bit of light, not just on the technical side of district energy systems, but on the broader context, and as you say, the bureaucracy, the what is needed to make these things happen and to keep going in that right direction. So thanks a lot for your time. I really appreciate it.   Scott Demark  53:43 Thank you, Trevor, good to see you.   Trevor Freeman  53:45 All right. Take care.   Trevor Freeman  53:47 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].

Summer rewind: What does Canada do with excess energy? How is it stored today and how will it be stored as the energy industry evolves? Justin Rangooni, CEO of Energy Storage Canada, shares how energy storage supports a sustainable future for Canadians—from enhanced flexibility to affordability, large-scale grids to individual consumer needs. Listen to episode 152 of thinkenergy to learn about ongoing projects and challenges facing the energy storage sector in Canada.   Related links   ●     Justin Rangooni on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-rangooni-5063b542/ ●     Energy Storage Canada: https://www.energystoragecanada.org/ ●     TC Energy Pump Storage Project: https://www.tcenergy.com/operations/power/pumped-storage-project/ ●     From Small to Mighty report: https://energyontario.ca/Files/OEA_ESC_From_Small_to_Mighty_Dec_2024.pdf ●     Ontario Energy Board: https://www.oeb.ca/ ●     Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-cem-leed-ap-8b612114/ ●     Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en    To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod ----- Transcript: Trevor Freeman  00:00 Hi everyone. Well, summer is here, and the think energy team is stepping back a bit to recharge and plan out some content for the next season. We hope all of you get some much needed downtime as well, but we aren't planning on leaving you hanging over the next few months, we will be re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the past year that we think really highlight innovation, sustainability and community. These episodes highlight the changing nature of how we use and manage energy, and the investments needed to expand, modernize and strengthen our grid in response to that. All of this driven by people and our changing needs and relationship to energy as we move forward into a cleaner, more electrified future, the energy transition, as we talk about many times on this show. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll be back with all new content in September. Until then, happy listening.   Trevor Freeman  00:55 Welcome to think energy, a podcast that dives into the fast changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional and up and coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at think energy at hydroottawa.com, Hi everyone. Welcome back. We tend to take for granted that when we flick that light switch on, or we plug in our coffee maker or EV, electricity is there to do what we want it to do. It will light up the room or make our coffee or charge our car or whatever the case may be. But let's take a minute to reflect on the engineering marvel that makes that a reality. The traditional power grid is set up as a one way on demand system, meaning, when you need those electrons for your morning cup of coffee somewhere else, that same amount of electricity needs to be generated pretty much simultaneously. Multiply that one use case by hundreds of millions or likely even billions of devices needing power at any given time, and you can appreciate the challenge. Traditionally, power grids don't store electricity. They need to make sure they're generating enough power for the load that's required at any given time. And as many generation sources can't be instantaneously turned on or off. This requires forecasting, also known as informed guessing, of what the load might be at any given time to make sure that the generation resources needed are up and running. Some forms of generation require a few minutes to turn on and off. Some require a few days or even weeks. In the case of nuclear generation, for example, and others like solar or wind are dependent on weather conditions. So all of this means that often there is some excess generation that needs to go somewhere, and that somewhere is traditionally a neighboring jurisdiction, who will buy that excess power at a pretty low rate. So all that I've described above, while it is an engineering marvel, is a rather inflexible system. The good news is that this is the power grid of yesterday. Well, today, a little bit as well. The grid of tomorrow is shaping up to be much more flexible in terms of when and where we generate and use electricity, and a major tool that will help us get to that state is energy storage. Energy Storage means things that let us generate electricity at a certain point in time, such as when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing, or when not a lot of people are using grid electricity, like the middle of the night, but save it to be used later, when the conditions are opposite to those I just mentioned. This opens up loads of possibilities and can help with grid flexibility, for sure, but also other things like customer affordability. So imagine being able to pull cheaper off peak electricity from the grid and use it later when rates are higher during peak times, instead of buying that more expensive power. It supports things like resiliency, so using stored electricity during an outage, for example, and it also lets utilities and system operators pull on different resources on the grid at different times, instead of only having generation to pull from. Energy storage can take many forms, which we'll get into in today's conversation, but certainly, batteries are the ones that we are most familiar with. We're seeing more and more applications for this technology, from home battery systems to large scale Grid applications. In fact, here in Ontario, the Independent System Operator or IESO is working through their long term or LT one RFP, which is looking to procure capacity, including battery storage for grid needs. But some of these projects are facing hurdles, such as opposition from community. Members opposed to project developments in their area over concerns about what those projects mean with the need for more energy storage of all sizes on our grid. I thought this would be a good time to dig into this growing sector and understand it a little bit better. And the perfect person to help us do that is actually someone who's been on the show twice before, Justin Rangoon, he the president and CEO of energy storage Canada. So even though Justin's been on before, I think given what's happening in the news and the evolving sector that he represents, it's great to have him back to talk through some of this stuff together. So energy storage Canada, or ESC is the National Trade Association that's dedicated to advancing Canada's energy storage sector. It's a non profit organization that was established in 2016 and has a diverse membership of more than 85 members, from technology providers to project developers, power generators, utilities like Hydro Ottawa, engineering firms, etc, etc. Justin in particular, is the President and CEO of energy storage Canada, and is a lawyer with more than a decade of experience in Canada's energy sector, specializing in policy and government relations. He's been the executive director since 2019 and has facilitated significant growth within ESC membership, staff, conference offerings, et cetera, to kind of match the pace of accelerated growth in the storage sector. So it's really great to have Justin here today to talk through this with us. Justin Rangooni, welcome to the show. Great to be here again. Thanks for having me. Yeah, actually, that's a great correction or clarification. Welcome back to the show. So I think you're actually the first three Pete guests that we've had on the think energy podcast you've been on twice before, both times with my predecessor, Dan. So great for us to chat for the first time, but welcome back to Think energy for the third time.   Justin Rangooni  06:54 Oh, thank you. It's always good to have the Triple Crown, right? I'm happy to wear it   Trevor Freeman  06:59 and the first one too. So why don't we start right off the bat, Justin, if you don't mind, remind our listeners about the important role that energy storage can and will play for both customer needs as well as for grid management.   Justin Rangooni  07:16 Okay, so the best way to think of it is, there's an analogy that one of our members had always said, and we continue to use it when we talk about energy storage. And the great things that can do is that it's like bacon. It makes everything better. I don't eat bacon, but I take I understand the concept, and what that means is, if you look at from a grid management point of view, is that we have all in Ontario, we're lucky to have a pretty clean grid, if it's nuclear power, or it's water power, or it's intermittent generation like wind and solar and even some gas too, which is which is near zero carbon or don't have coal. So it's a clean grid, and energy storage can make that better in the sense that it will optimize those generation assets so we're not wasting it. So those days before we would hear about when energy is needed but the wind's not blowing, or the sun's not shining, or we don't need the energy and we have to spill water, or, you know, we may have to power down a ramp, down a bit of the nuclear ramp or the natural gas units. Now energy storage can make sure we don't waste that now we can collect that power when it's done, when it's when it's being done, when it's being made, and we're holding it for when it's needed. And from a grid management that is the real key. That is the game changer that energy storage provides. And if we break it down, to the customer themselves. You know, you're trying to think of now, not just helping keep the lights on. We're also talking about your rates now in terms of now we can kind of defer those investments in terms of more generation, because now you have energy storage that's getting more out of it. We're also talking from the distribution side about pools and wires. Maybe you don't you can defer those investments a little longer with more distributed, connected energy storage. So now the customer is starting to see the benefits of energy storage in their rates and in their electricity bill. And look, I just got an electric car. They're really excited about it, and I can see the possibilities of that car being a battery for my home, for my use, which, again, now maybe that's still a bit down the road with B to G and using it to power a residential energy storage unit in my house, but the possibilities are really endless. So this is really the exciting thing about energy storage, from a Grid Manager down to the customer,   Trevor Freeman  09:35 yeah, and I think it's important to think about the different contexts that energy storage can play, or the different roles that it can play for our individual customers, a homeowner, there's a role for storage there, and you get some of those benefits that you just mentioned, but then we can scale that all the way up to the grid level. And you know, us in the utility space also have some things that we can do with. Energy Storage, and like you said, we can manage things a little bit better. We don't have to waste that energy. We can generate it when it's cheap and hold on to it and use it when it's maybe a bit more difficult in those peak periods. So lots of different uses. Thanks for laying that out for us. Now we hear a lot about, you know, decentralization and community-based energy systems, kind of more control at the community level when it comes to energy what's the role of energy storage in systems like that?   Justin Rangooni  10:32 Well, I think that's energy storage can really make that a reality. Now, again, I think I'll go back to my example having an electric car. It seems like more getting closer to being more a prosumer than just a consumer now. So I can see the possibilities of using electric vehicle you could and then you start to pair that with other kind of your thermostat or your other smart technologies in your home. So now, when we're talking about decentralizing community based energy systems, the consumer, the utility, the system operator, you're all able to get in the space of playing with the technologies. And that's really again, where it gets kind of exciting that everyone's playing a role. There's different possibilities to use, and we think energy storage is the key to doing that, because it can store that energy when it's not needed, and you can use it when it's needed. And if the technology evolution continues, eventually, the homeowner, the business owner, can start to use that. I can use buy power from the cars. I can use my power that I'm generating myself or from the distribution grid. And now I can start to play with it and use it store overnight when rates are low or when there's excess supply. I could store that energy and use it when it's needed during the day. So really exciting times, and that's why we think energy storage is key to any decentralized or community based energy systems.   Trevor Freeman  11:51 Yeah, it really unlocks that ability to push control into the hands of the end user, whether that's the homeowner or the business owner. The community, kind of pushes it downstream into their hands. So as I mentioned up top, you've been on the show before. I think the last time was 2021 which, I mean, doesn't seem like that long ago, in some sense, and also seems like decades ago. What has changed in the world of energy storage since the last time you were on the show? Oh,   Justin Rangooni  12:20 oh, how much has changed? Geez, like that does seem like a very long time ago. I think the Toronto Raptors were only two years coming out of an NBA championship, and we thought maybe we'll get some more, get some more long playoff runs. And that's right, still living the high on that. That's right, or still living the high back then? Well, since 2021 like, a massive amount has changed in the sector. You know, we're seeing incredible growth across Canada. I think when we first chatted back then, you know, we were talking about the energy storage potential, specifically in Ontario. And since that time, we've seen one of the largest procurements for energy storage technologies, and really globally, take place in Ontario, with over 3000 megawatts of contract contracts awarded in that time, and we're looking at more in subsequent rounds of procurements for the rest of the decade, including one of the first of the kind procurements focused on long lead time or long duration energy storage technologies, which does get very interesting, because now you're looking just beyond batteries, or just beyond lithium batteries. Now you're looking at things that can store power, six, 812, hours, days, weeks, even seasons. If you really think about it, it's really exciting. We've seen the growth in Ontario. And it's not just there. You look across the country, Nova Scotia, since that time, announced 350 megawatt battery energy storage projects. Alberta already has over 100 megawatts providing value and what their market design consultation is going on now we expect to see a lot more. BC is a 600 megawatt target. Saskatchewan installed a 50 megawatt desk system. And you're looking at projects big and small, transmission, connected, dx connected, being announced, implemented, you know, across the country, and just more as we speak.   Trevor Freeman  13:59 Yeah. So those long lead was just maybe for my own curiosity. Everybody's probably pretty familiar with battery technology, and if you're not, it's really the same concept as the batteries you put in, I don't know, your remote control, or in your phone or your car. Now, scaled up, what are some of those technologies as that energy storage technology that provides that long duration storage time that you were just mentioning. So   Justin Rangooni  14:22 you're looking at possibly different battery chemistries, like zinc, vanadium, for instance, like, again, different elements critical minerals that are found that can actually do their technological process, and what it can hold, can hold that energy for even longer. So you're looking at different battery chemistries. You're also looking for different methods of energy storage, like compressed air. Wow, which, again, there's a Canadian company which is one of our members of hydro store, and is doing great work getting ready for that in other parts of the world, where it's basically taking air, compressing it into underground caverns, saving that energy potential, and then releasing it to. Create electricity when it's needed, then you have thermal storage. And again, some Canadian companies are really looking in and on that one in terms of using, you know, heating molten salts or molten rocks for thermal storage, and eating that, that energy potential, and using and keeping it there and then using it for when it's needed. And I go think back to the batteries. There's, there's easing, which is, which is an Ontario company based out of Etobicoke that's looking at zinc based batteries for that long duration, and not to mention even pump storage, which has been around for decades. And we heard a recent announcement of moving the ball forward on TC energy's pump storage project in medieval again, that's a long duration energy storage project, again, doing more, doing it more than the four hour lithium batteries, but you get all those options available for a system operator then, then it gets really interesting that they can see what they need and what time and what storage technology to to rely on.   Trevor Freeman  15:55 Yeah. So for our listeners, I mean, you might be familiar with hydro generation, you take water that's flowing downhill, whether it's a waterfall or just a river, and use that momentum to turn a turbine. Pumped Storage would be taking that that water, actually pumping it uphill and holding it there and then when you want to generate electricity, letting it flow down through the turbine, and just repeating that process over and over again. So thanks. Thanks for sharing that with us. I think it's important to recognize that like any technology, things kind of move forward. They iterate, they improve, and as we see more adoption that technology, it speeds up the process of that iteration, and we see jumps forward in the technology and its efficiency. So we've talked about the importance for grid management, for cost, sort of reliability, but there are folks out there whose main driver is reducing their carbon footprint. So understanding that energy use often has a carbon aspect to it, how can energy storage help, whether that's a business or an industry, help them reduce their carbon   Justin Rangooni  17:01 footprint? That's a great question. And what energy storage can do is, traditionally, before energy storage technologies started to mature and be more economically viable, like we're seeing right now, a lot of companies, a lot of new communities and had a lot of access to electricity, reliable electricity would use diesel generation as backup. So that's dirtier, that's like, it's not good for the environment. But now energy storage can provide that different option. Now you can install an energy storage system, smaller battery, for instance, to provide that backup system, if that's what the reason you need it. But again, because now you have that battery, well, it's not just there for backup. Now you can use it for helping smooth those peaks. A lot of industrial customers, especially Ontario too, are using behind what's called behind the meter energy storage to really help mitigate or manage that electricity use during peak times where they don't necessarily have to rely on the grid. They can use that battery that's installed. Again, low carbon footprint, if at all, you're just using the clean electricity that's on the grid to power that battery, and now you're using that battery and reducing the pressure that's on the grid during those peak periods. So not only decarbonization, you're applying reliability, and it's really good for affordability reasons, and so that's why you're seeing a lot of interest from the CNI type customers.   Trevor Freeman  18:19 Awesome. Are you seeing an increased pace in the adoption of energy storage? Are we kind of hitting that technology adoption curve where it's starting to pick up, or has it been relatively stable the last couple of   Justin Rangooni  18:32 years? Well, I would say we're still in the growth mode. And I always like to say that the sector is growing as us the association energy storage Canada's growing. Our members keep getting bigger. Our conference keeps getting bigger. The amount of submissions and work and like podcasts like this and getting questions about it continue to grow. And it goes with the sector that it's still growing. There are provinces like Ontario that are ahead of the game right now, but there's others that are coming now. Provinces like Saskatchewan is starting to look more at energy storage. So in a few years, they'll might be where Ontario is. So everyone's coming at different angles, and it's because of the technology advancements for energy storage. It's also the economics have started to go down, but it's also that they are seeing, we really need that reliable backup power, or reliable electricity to help keep the lights on while keeping rates low, and they're seeing energy storage, that's the option that they really need to look at. So we are way beyond now science experiments and pilot projects, but we're still not there where it's starting to plateau. I'm not sure when that happens. I hope maybe it never happens. Maybe it just keeps going. The technology will advance, but just keep happening. So it's a really fun kind of we're still riding the wave, I would say,   Trevor Freeman  19:41 Yeah, awesome. So you gave a bit of an outlook on the Canadian landscape. Are there other jurisdictions around the world that are real leaders when it comes to energy storage, you know, policy or adoption, or where they are, compared to Canada? You know   Justin Rangooni  19:55 what? We're starting to see that almost like everywhere. So obviously us, they lead. Their leaders, a lot of the ways, similar to us, their states have different priorities, different reasons for using it, just like we have our provinces. So states like California are have a lot of energy storage to make use of the intermittent solar generation that they have. Texas, also, maybe with solar, too, is using a lot of energy storage. But interesting, like the red state, the Republican state of Texas, is embracing innovative technologies like energy storage. Because, if you recall, during their winter storm they had they ran like their power was really short. So what did they look at going forward, saying, we need to make sure that we have a reliable system. And entered and they started to really embrace energy storage. So if it's decarbonization goals, if it's reliability goals, if it's a priority, goals are really driving a lot of the policy directions in the US, in Europe, in China, in Asia, China, Japan, Korea, they're all looking to install more energy storage. Again, it's not, it's not just like politically neutral. It's almost like country neutral, that you can put this anywhere. It's scalable, it's portable. And that's the beauty of energy storage.   Trevor Freeman  21:08 Yeah. I mean, it's a good reminder that when you get right down to it, when you cut through all the noise, good ideas, you know, kind of transcend politics and transcend political parties or rhetoric. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea and it's and it's going to happen. Okay? So I want to dive into a report that you kind of partnered with the Ontario Energy Association recently on the reports called from small to mighty unlocking ders to meet Ontario's electricity needs. So in this report, you outline a policy and regulatory framework that is aimed at enabling widespread adoption of DERs, which includes energy storage. Can you talk us through the main principles of that framework?   Justin Rangooni  21:52 Sure, and this is a great collaboration between the Ontario Energy Association trying to look at everyone's been talking about distributed energy storage or energy resources as kind of the next phase, the next piece of the energy puzzle in Ontario, and really for Canada. But we're looking Ontario here to meet our capacity needs that are being forecasted by the IEA. So, so what we thought working with the OEA was, can we come out with a paper that kind of looks at a roadmap to how do we really start to implement DERs, and that includes the utilities in Ontario, that includes the private entities and companies who want to install and own and help own and operate these DERs. So what this paper really looks at is, you know, it supports the development of an overarching policy and regulatory framework to enable DERs to play a much larger role in Ontario's electricity resource needs to support economic growth. So we're recommending that for Ontario government to issue policy directions to the Ontario Energy bowl or to the ISO to really enable LDCs like Hydro Ottawa led der procurements, as well as make grid modernization investments necessary to integrate and manage DERs, because we believe enabling an LDC led der procurement stream builds on LDCs existing responsibility and aligns with the development of future local markets for distribution services and really to play In that upcoming ISO wholesale market enhancements to better integrate DERs. So it's kind of bringing DERs into that game. So it's not just relying on centralized generation, which speaks really well to what energy storage kind of does. It's you can play in a wholesale market. It's a tech transmission connector. It could also be distribution connected. So that's why we consider it as a big piece of this der puzzle, distributed energy storage.   Trevor Freeman  23:43 Yeah. So I mean, you've outlined kind of that engagement piece and encouraging the regulatory bodies, our levels of government, to enable more DERs to happen. What does that engagement look like to support the industry's growth? How are you engaging with policymakers?   Justin Rangooni  24:00 Well, this is one of the great things of having a dedicated trade association, like energy stores. You know, we our team is growing. We're about six now. Across the country. We have a great we have fantastic 100, over 100 members, including Hydro Ottawa, who help us develop these policy submissions. And we have various working groups dedicated either Ontario wholesale or distributed energy storage or BC, Alberta, federal, Atlantic, Canada as well, what have you. And this is how we engage policy makers. We are able to tap into the expertise of our members and get their feedback and then bring that common consensus position focus exclusively on energy storage, nothing else. We do this 24 hours, seven days a week, 365, days a year, and we bring this to decision makers, if it's the regulator, the system operator and governments. So when we're talking about DERs, or we're talking about anything else, we're bringing that pure energy storage perspective that no one else can bring, and so they're seeing, i. Us is that trusted voice for the sector, and that's how we're really seeing a lot of momentum, and we are moving the ball down the   Trevor Freeman  25:06 field Great. What is the role that you guys play when it comes to fostering innovation and investment in new storage solutions? It's kind of that, you know, iterative process where technology improves over time. How are you and how is it energy storage Canada sort of helping speed that along. I   Justin Rangooni  25:25 think one of the best examples was with Ontario's procurement. They were really interested in long lead time, or long duration energy storage. So to help ISO get comfortable with the concept, because of our membership continues to grow, we have members who are dedicated to long energy storage. So we were able to facilitate introductions. We were able to group meetings, bring them to talk about their technologies to the ISO. And we'll do this again. We'll replicate this across the country as well. And it gets the ISO comfortable where they can ask all the questions that they could ever have about that into that company's LDS technology. And it gets them comfortable to start to frame the procurement so they'll know what technologies are available now, what technology may be available in, say, five years time, but then they can start applying so this is how we foster innovation and new storage solutions. We bring our members, facilitate those meetings with decision makers, and that really, can really start to get things moving   Trevor Freeman  26:18 when it comes to those new technology. So you mentioned, you know, having line of sight into what's coming five years down the road. I know earlier in the conversation, we were talking about, you know, different battery chemistries, different technologies. Is there anything coming up that isn't viable today or doesn't work today, or we may not be aware of today that you see as the next thing, the next technology that looks promising for deployment in the coming five or 10 years.   Justin Rangooni  26:45 You know what I would think a better way to look at it is, I think there's a knowledgeable a lot of the existing technologies, even if you look at lithium batteries, which is the most prevalent right now, where lithium batteries will be in five years, will probably look a lot different than it is now in terms of its efficiency, of how long, how many hours, it could be considered a long duration asset in five years time. And you can think of any of the other newer technologies that are coming now saying, oh, you know, I'm ready now. Or I need a long lead time. It might take me a year to have built in five years time that that, construction timeline could be shorter. So in this nascent sector, which is really brewing with so many great ideas and innovation, it's going to change year to year. Who knows by the end of the decade, how many different types of energy storage technologies are viable right now? That's what I'm really excited about. Where a system operator somewhere in this country will say, I need some capacity now. And now they could almost do it as the menu. I could pick the location I need it in, I need I need a certain duration, I need a certain size. And they can look at the menu of energy storage technologies that are really available now and start to kind of pick them off and say, Well, maybe, maybe this combination will really   Trevor Freeman  27:57 work. Yeah, having options really addresses multiple needs and different folks that have different drivers can sort of pick and choose what makes the most sense for them. Like any new technology or newer technology, it often starts with, you know, high capital costs. Those with the deep pockets are able to really engage in it first, but then over time, that comes down. So I'm curious, kind of, on the economics of it. Are there any trends that you're seeing when it comes to investment in energy storage projects in Canada that you're seeing over time? Yeah, I   Justin Rangooni  28:31 think there's a couple of buckets you can look at. You can look at, like strategic government support for programs. So when we first started, I think when we first talked, probably in 2021 where I just, kind of, I started in 2019 in this role, and we were talking to the federal government, saying, you grab all these great programs for other generation assets, why not create one for energy storage that can start to really help the project economics? So they created the smart renewable electricity Pathways Program. Then came the investment tax credits. So those are great examples of government support programs to really help this sector as it's growing. Will those be needed in five years plus time? Maybe not, maybe not. Maybe then it try, maybe it pivots to the newer energy storage technologies to help so but strategic government support is a is a great driver of it. You saw that in the US with their investment Reduction Act program, the RR, the IRA, which started to launch a lot of ITCs for different energy technologies, like energy store. And you saw the market boom. It really started making the economics better. And it just made helped on rates, where people were able to start looking at different innovative technologies. So strategic government support is key private sector engagement as well. And you're looking at that on the the AI start of things like the big data centers. They want to power their own clean supply of generation, and they're going to need energy storage to provide that 24/7 power. So they're willing to dole out money for. Are ESG goals as well. There's companies, hopefully still out there who still want to pursue ESG goals. So they're going to be looking at cleaner energy solutions and help and energy storage obviously plays a role in there. There's international collaborations with different governments, where Canada's part of talking about, you know, what can we do to share R and D to really advance different sorts of technologies. So really, it's government, it's the public, it's public together, and it's private altogether, doing this investment trends.   Trevor Freeman  30:30 Yeah, I mean, great answer, and you kind of answered my next question, or my follow up question, which is, what are some of the levers that we can lean on to encourage investment and to sort of speed up that investment. And I think you've hit the nail on the head there of the role that sort of government can play. We've talked on the show before about the role that government can play in sort of jump starting technology and using investments and tax credits to help get nascent technology off the ground until it's market ready. And we're seeing that in the in the storage space, the role of, you know, private entities with strong drivers, like data centers, for example, to come in and say, look, we've got a need here, and we see that energy storage can fulfill part of that need, and we're willing to pay in order to make that happen. And that also helps move the industry along and move the technology forward. So those are great examples. Thanks for highlighting that. Let's dive in a little bit into the technology. Here. One question that often comes up, maybe by by those more resistant to the technology, is, well, what about end of life? What about the environmental impacts when it comes to, you know, battery storage, in particular, the rare earth metals that go into that the mining required. Talk to us a little bit about some of the sustainability considerations regarding batteries, end of life. Can they be recycled? What? What happens? How are we mitigating that, that environmental impact?   Justin Rangooni  32:01 Yeah, I think these are excellent questions to ask, if you look on the recycling end of life, because we're at kind of the starting point of enabling energy storage. We're talking about batteries, specifically with these recent Ontario contracts. So these are 20 years contracts, so these batteries are going to last a while. You know? They might get replaced every 10 years. But what you're seeing is a lot of interesting Canadian companies. So there's a store, there's there BC, for example, is looking to be one of the leaders in not just EV, not just battery energy storage recycling, but electric vehicles and other recycling as well. So companies like tax and moment energy are taking you this opportunity while this window is open right now, see, how is it best to recycle these batteries? So either you're going to break them down to recycle them as much as you can in the most environmentally sensitive way, or can you now repurpose them? So a lot are looking at electric vehicle batteries that may come to life much sooner than battery energy storage system, let's say six to eight years, then repurposing those to say, well, we can get more life out of these. Could be battery, energy, standalone systems for another eight to 10 years. So there are recycling options, there's refurbishing options, and then there's just breaking down the components. And here is the opportunity for Canada to be a leader. You have this window. So there's interest, there's, there's, there's startup companies, and there's a lot of interest. So if Canada could do this, right, you know, we could be a leader in the recycling of EVs and battery energy storage.   Trevor Freeman  33:29 Yeah, it's like, it's the old. I don't know if it's a cliche or an adage, but somebody's problem is another person's opportunity, right? The challenge of a new technology, having a battery that gets to end of life at some point creates opportunity, whether that's in the recycling of it or and I'm glad you brought that up. It's one of my favorite examples or potential use cases of you know, an EV battery gets to the point where it can no longer provide the required power for moving a car down the highway at highway speeds, but it still can provide the kind of power that a house might need for backup power, for peak shaving or for reliability, whatever the case may be. So just because it's end of life in one use case doesn't necessarily mean it's end of life in another use case. I think that's a great example. I really like hearing that one. So one other thing that comes up when we talk about these maybe larger scale battery energy storage installations is safety, public safety. And there's a bit of a question mark, I think, in the public mind of, well, are these safe? Are we going to be at risk if we're near to one of these facilities? I think people are generally familiar with or even maybe even if they aren't familiar with it, they feel like they are when it comes to other types of generation, for example. But battery is a bit of an unknown. Are these battery installations? Are they safe? What are some of the safety considerations, and how is the industry addressing those?   Justin Rangooni  34:58 No and. And the short answer is, these are safe. As you mentioned at the outset, this technology is the same lithium batteries that are in your phone that you might put near your head when you're falling asleep, that you're plugging in overnight you're in your kitchen or your living room, what have you now, because they are bigger scale and the questions there they have to follow the correct procedures and installation. So what we rely on, obviously, our members adhere to the latest safety standards, the latest fire safety measures that have to take in the low risk that this might happen. What we also do, and we'll make a plug for these two members of ours who have been really helpful to us. It's Hillier Safety Group. Hillier and energy safety response group. So these are two members of ours who have especially with esrg. They are there. They are firefighters and ex firefighters who test batteries, energy storage system to and then take learnings and best practices from it. So we've encouraged and esrg goes out with our members. They go with the ISO. They do webinars that we host with them, speaking about how as a firefighter, they say, we test these things if they're installed correctly, if you're using the correct like a reputable company, and you ask about the mitigation measures these things are safe and in the low risk that these things might catch on fire by letting it burn out. It might not look so good sometimes, but that is actually the safest way. And there have been instances which I think were referenced and people talk about like in New York, and there was one in Los Angeles and and it, and they've done studies after this to say, Okay, what was the impact after nothing in the air, nothing in the soil, nothing in the water, it just burned itself out. Now, as the technology in the sector advances, you're going to see a lower risk of that. The numbers in the US actually say be as the number of battery in energy storage systems have increased, the incidence of these risks have gone down dramatically. And the reason is that technology is advancing. The safety measures are advancing, the standards are are advancing. So these things are becoming safer and safer. But if you're a community member and you have questions, ask the developer these questions. Say to them, what battery are you using? Is this a reputable company? How many What measures do you have in place in case something does happen? And these are all great questions to ask, and those who are our members of energy storage Canada, you know they will, they will be able to answer those and provide that comfort.   Trevor Freeman  37:27 Absolutely great, good answer. Okay, final question here, What is the long term vision for energy storage Canada? You know, we're seeing movement in the sector. We're seeing more adoption. Where do you kind of see your organization, your association, going in the coming years. We expect   Justin Rangooni  37:46 it to continue to grow as the sector grows. And really what we want to see is that in every jurisdiction, with every utility, and soon to get down to the residential that they're seeing energy storage technologies as a viable option. So if you're a system operator, or you're a government and you're looking at the supply mix and saying, Well, how are we going to make sure we can keep the lights on while keeping rates low, energy storage is like, if not the first option, it is up there. And that's really the vision. Now this is seen as a mainstream resource, that it is no question that you wouldn't look at energy storage as part of your solution, on the distribution level or at the transmission level. So the very exciting vision, and again, we talked about the residential and becoming a prosumer, and then that really is the opportunities start to become even more endless.   Trevor Freeman  38:34 Yeah, it's one of the things. I mean, our listeners are probably roll their eyes because they hear me say this all the time. But one of the things I like about being in this sector, this kind of energy space, is exactly that you can see the vision for how these various technologies, these strategies, this sort of new way of dealing with energy, seem really exciting and really cool, but they're also not that far down the road, like we're in the midst of this change when it comes to all this technology, I think energy storage is a perfect example of that, where just a couple years ago, maybe four or five years ago, it was hard to even imagine where we are today and where we'll be in the very near future, because things are changing so fast. So I share your excitement for that vision. Thanks for sharing that with us, and no doubt, energy storage Canada will have a big role to play in that today and in the years to come. Justin, thanks very much for this conversation. We do always end our interviews with a series of questions, so I'm going to fire those at you now, and we'll see. We'll see what you come up with. So first question is always, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Okay,   Justin Rangooni  39:45 that's a great question. This is my favorite part of these podcast interviews, really. Um, we saw a little political jump junkie who likes Pulitzer Prize winning books, so I kind of focus on political history. So if you want. Ever want to read any of those that are the best? I would say the Teddy Roosevelt trilogy by Edwin Morris is a must read. They're fantastic. So that's when I read those. I'm like, Okay, this was, are you gonna top this? So you're always chasing that next book to read like that. That's   Trevor Freeman  40:16 awesome. I just as a complete aside, my kids school does this big used book sale every year, and it was just this past weekend, and you never know what you're going to find when you're like, wandering through the aisles and there's books there that you never heard of, and you pick something up. So I have this new stack of books at home that I can dive through, and I'm the same with you. I like to, yeah, read about some historical figure or some, like, important period when it comes to policy, and just kind of, yeah, try and get myself into that headspace. So, same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show you watch that you think everybody should   Justin Rangooni  40:52 Oh, well, it's gonna take, like, almost the exact opposite of like, seriousness. But you know, the officer Veep, you know you can go to those anytime, like just long lasting stand up. I think we're gonna be watching those episodes in the next 30 years, even though Veep is getting kind of more real than I think they originally thought.   Trevor Freeman  41:13 And yeah, in a kind of scary way, but I hear you, yeah, it's good to have those classics that you can always go back to if someone offered you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where   Justin Rangooni  41:24 would you go? Well, as we're taping this, and it's winter and it's cold and there's snow, probably somewhere like Fiji or Bora, Bora, where it's warm and there's beaches, so especially the warmth is where we're really emphasizing right now, I hear you in February.   Trevor Freeman  41:39 Yeah, absolutely. That's the joy and the curse of living in Canada. Who is someone that you admire?   Justin Rangooni  41:47 Well, I'd say you for doing these podcasts, but that is pretty cool that you're doing. Nate, so I appreciate it. You're on the list. Otherwise, I would say otherwise, frontline workers, you know, for even talking about even our sector, you know, you got lines men, you got people who are putting their lives on the line, nurses, teachers, doctors, police officers. You know, those who, every day are putting are on that front lines to do something for others. I think that's those are the real heroes out there.   Trevor Freeman  42:15 Awesome, great answer. And finally, what's something about the energy sector or its future that you're really excited about. And I know we kind of just talked about this, but I'll let you, I'll let you elaborate.   Justin Rangooni  42:26 Oh, it's an easy one, that it's continually evolving like nothing is stagnant. The way things are. We've seen today are going to change tomorrow, and energy storage is a fantastic example of that, where we first talked to 2021 Oh, we were just getting started now. Here we are, and the momentum is growing. If you have me again in another couple years, who knows where we're going to be at that time? So it's really exciting to see where, where it's going.   Trevor Freeman  42:50 Absolutely awesome. Great answer. Justin, thanks very much for your time. I appreciate the conversation. I appreciate your passion and excitement for this pretty cool technology that's going to have a big role to play as we kind of navigate this energy transition, and really already is playing a big role. So thanks for coming on. Thanks for your time and appreciate the   Speaker 1  43:08 conversation. Thanks for having me, Trevor talk again, my friend, awesome. Take care.   Trevor Freeman  43:15 Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at think energy, at hydro ottawa.com, you.  

Powering tomorrow: investing in Ottawa’s energy future Hydro Ottawa recently unveiled its  2026-2030  investment plan focused on modernizing and strengthening the grid. The way we’re consuming energy is changing, and this investment plan focuses on four key areas that highlight why Hydro Ottawa is taking action, how they plan on doing it, and what it all means for you.  Hydro Ottawa’s Chief Operating Officer, Distribution and Generation, Guillaume Paradis, joins thinkenergy to dive a little deeper into those focus areas, and why they matter, with host Trevor Freeman.  Related links Guillaume Paradis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaume-paradis-30a47721 Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en   To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa Keep up with the posts on X: https:/www.twitter.com/thinkenergypod Transcript: Trevor Freeman 00:07 Welcome to ThinkEnergy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected] everyone, and welcome back. A few episodes back, I talked about some of the important work that happens at the distribution level to maintain and expand our grid, and I tried to connect the dots between that work and the broader societal energy transition that is happening at all levels—how the work we do at the distribution level is really important and tied to some of those larger projects that may get a little bit more news and attention. That energy transition, which, as you're hopefully aware by now, is ongoing right now; it's not something of the future, it's happening today. That energy transition is multifaceted, but from an electricity and electrification perspective, the distribution utility—i.e., the Hydro Ottawa of whatever jurisdiction you're in—is at the very leading edge of many of the changes we need to see within our electricity system to support that transition.So today, I'd like to go a little bit further with that topic and focus on Hydro Ottawa's next five-year investment plan, which covers the 2026 to 2030 period. This will be the largest investment plan in our history as a company, and I wanted to dig into what we have identified as key focus areas for investment in the coming five years. With more than 100 years of operating a large, complex distribution network, Hydro Ottawa is embarking on a pretty significant journey to modernize and strengthen our grid for the challenges and opportunities ahead of us. We have filed our 2026 to 2030 electricity distribution rate application, as it's called, with the Ontario Energy Board. This is a standard practice for all local distribution companies in Ontario; that's what we have to do. As a reminder for our listeners, the Ontario Energy Board, or OEB, as we often call it, is our independent regulator. Their mission in this process is to strike a balance between ensuring the financial health and operational needs of utilities like Hydro Ottawa, while also safeguarding the affordability and reliability of the service for the customer. So they want to make sure that we're spending enough to tackle the right projects on the grid to make sure it stays operational while not spending too much. They meticulously scrutinize every detail of these applications to ensure that the proposed rates are just and reasonable and that all investments are prudent and truly in the public interest.So we have gotten a number of questions about the plan, and specifically around, "Where is the money going to go? What are you going to actually spend these dollars that you're requesting on? And why are these investments necessary? What benefits are they actually going to bring to our community?" And often we get the question of, "Does this mean fewer outages or shorter outages?" So I want to dig into that. I want to talk a little bit about what we've got planned and what the impact will be, and what the impact would be if we don't do those things. And to help me walk through that energy roadmap, that plan that we've put together, I've got Guillaume Paradis joining me today. Guillaume is the Chief Operating Officer of Generation and Distribution here at Hydro Ottawa, and he's going to join me, and we're going to talk through this. Guillaume and his teams are responsible for the planning, design, operation, construction, and maintenance of our electrical power distribution system, and in his role, he leads the teams that are directly accountable for ensuring the safe, efficient, and reliable delivery of electricity to our customers. Today, I'm going to ask Guillaume to really walk us through the details of our investment plan, how it was shaped, how we came up with these specific areas, and what benefits are going to be realized by our community and the broader energy landscape. Guillaume Paradis, welcome to the show. Guillaume Paradis 04:24 Pleasure to be here, Trevor. Trevor Freeman 04:26 Okay, so Guillaume, this is Hydro Ottawa's largest investment plan ever, and I'd like you to start by talking us through the primary drivers behind what our five-year investment plan is. Guillaume Paradis 04:41 Yeah, so as you've heard, as you've seen, we're at a historical, or historically, you know, unique point in the evolution of our industry. Electricity underpins most of our societal aspirations with respect to creating, you know, a more sustainable future, creating the future we want to leave for the next generations. And our distribution system underpins a lot of those aspirations in simple ways and in more complex ways. So, you know, a simple way is that essentially, for, you know, the well-being of our society, for our customers, the residents of Ottawa, and really any area, to live the lives they're hoping to live, to, you know, enjoy the benefits of modern life, electricity is a critical underpinning in any way you can imagine and you know, think about. So our service has always been very important. It's just become even more critical as a foundational block for, you know, the lives that we're hoping to live and we're living today in our modern society. So that, combined with other aspirations related to reducing our carbon footprint and integrating more renewable energy resources within our footprint, it creates a situation where there's a significant need for us to invest, continue to invest, and reinvest in our infrastructure to deliver those outcomes for customers. Trevor Freeman 06:28 Yeah, I think, I mean, we talk a lot about the energy transition on the show, and if, if you think about, you know, let's say our previous rate application, five years ago, the energy transition was a thing; we knew about it, but it was like a thing of tomorrow where, hey, that's going to come soon. The difference now, I assume, and maybe you can speak to this, is we're seeing that. We're seeing the change now. Guillaume Paradis 06:52 Yeah, you're exactly correct. Like, we're in it now. So we've been talking about it for some time, both from a, like a general societal aspiration standpoint, but also from a technological standpoint. For a very long time, we talked about electric vehicles having an impact and becoming more commonplace. We talked about leveraging automation to deliver our services. We talked about two-way power flows. So we've been building toward this moment, and now we're essentially in it, if you will, and we're seeing all those things, the confluence of all those longer-term trends sort of manifest themselves in real demand for our system, in real changes in how our customers want to use energy. And we're in the middle of that, and we're, you know, to enable those things happening in our community here in Ottawa. Trevor Freeman 07:49 Yeah, so it's like the business as usual, a lot of the same things, and we're going to talk about some of the specifics, but a lot of the same things we would normally do, just a lot more of at the same time as, like, also pivoting a little bit to meet some of these new needs, like charging transportation and like heating our spaces more with electricity, like some of these new needs that didn't exist or not to the same extent. So it's like more of the same plus other new stuff. And we're going to talk about that in a minute. Guillaume Paradis 08:23 Yeah. So, you know, we always would say that the future of the energy sector was very exciting, and things were coming and like, change was upon us, and now, essentially, we're, we're living it, right? So you have to carry on with the responsibilities that you always had, and meanwhile, figure out how to deliver those new outcomes, those new services that previously weren't required or expected. Trevor Freeman 08:51 Right? So let's, let's kind of get into some of the details here. So there are four key capital investment categories in this plan: growth and electrification, aging infrastructure, grid modernization, and grid resilience. So we're going to dive into the specifics of these in a minute. But to start off with, why? Why these four? How did we land on these four as the main categories? Guillaume Paradis 09:20 Yeah, so there's, there's various ways you can categorize investments. There's a lot of drivers that will lead us to invest in an area or replace some infrastructure somewhere in our system. These categories capture quite well what is at the core of various investments. So for one specific investment, there will be multiple drivers, but these ones sort of in an elegant way, I would say, capture, you know, why investments are occurring, what the primary driver is for those investments, and they help translate that for, you know, folks who are not involved day-to-day in planning the electricity system, that's our responsibility. What we're trying to communicate is why we're taking action where we're taking action. So those categories, in my mind, capture that really well. They also tie our investments to broad trends that people should be aware of, and they're a way to make sure that we have, you know, a clear baseline for a conversation as we proceed with those plans. Trevor Freeman 10:30 Yeah, one thing I find, and you know, in my role, I talk to customers a lot, and I find these are fairly easy to explain, or at least, I hope they are. If you're listening and you disagree, let us know. But people can kind of get their heads around why the utility needs to do each of these four things, and some, in some ways, they align with other sectors as well. So I think, and I hope, as we carry on our conversation here, it'll be easy to sort of build out the picture of what we're doing in each of those four areas. So why don't we? Let's dive right in then and look at the specifics. And starting with growth and electrification, what are the specific investments that are planned to support the growing energy needs of our community, you know? And we've already started talking about electric vehicles, other electrified aspects of our lives, like, what? What falls into this category? Guillaume Paradis 11:23 Yeah, so with respect to growth and electrification, there are a few underlying trends that drive the investment requirements. So as you've suggested, as you mentioned, you know, there's an evolution of how our customers use energy at home, day-to-day. EVs being obviously a primary example that everyone will be very aware of, just, you know, driving around town. Frankly, the difference in how regularly you'll see electric vehicles in our community relative to even five years ago is pretty dramatic, and that is having a long-term, you know, impact over time, likewise for technologies like heat pumps at home and just generally, the growth of our community. So those elements just drive a longer-term trend of more demand being present in our community, within our system, and in addition to that, one big change that we've seen over the last few years is more large-scale demand requests coming into our service territory. Typically that will be large customers wanting to do something different with energy. So it could go or it could be driven by a few different kind of corporate aspirations. What we're seeing a lot of are instances where large corporations decide, or institutions decide to do away with more carbon-intensive energy sources, so they will look to us and electricity to replace what previously would have been another fuel source that maybe is less green. So we're seeing that affecting choices some of those type of customers are making, and then at the same time, we're seeing just large requests related to a different type of energy demand. So companies wanting to, for example, bring back their R&D efforts to a data center that they operate and they control, so that they have more control over cybersecurity, you know, elements, and then likewise, with where their data flows to and how it's being managed. So we're seeing large requests at a rate that we didn't previously, and that those requests are significant enough that they require us to make very major investments, like new substations, like building out new feeders, again at a pace that far outpaces what we've seen historically. So the underlying trend of more small demand creating an impact at the aggregate level, combined with those larger requests, that's creating a significant need for us to invest in responding to that growth in the electrification drivers within our system. Trevor Freeman 14:42 Yeah, so this is in response to what we're seeing our customers do, and that's it's something that has come up before in conversation here, of, you know, we, we respond to what we see our customers doing and what our customers are asking us. They're asking for more power. We have to respond to provide that more power. So this. So this kind of area of investment is really just building out the grid and all of the assets and infrastructure that are that make up the grid to be able to meet the needs of our customers, which are growing faster than they were previously. Is that fair to say? Guillaume Paradis 15:17 Yeah, and for us, it's an interesting balancing act. We have to find where we have to anticipate our customers' needs and the demand that's upon us, but we can't get ahead of it, because that would draw investments that potentially would later become stranded or create a cost burden for our customers. So we have to know where the demand is going, and we have to be ready to respond and connect new customers, but we can't get too far ahead of it, because ultimately, you know, if we invest too soon, that's, you know, a burden for all our customers. So sometimes I would say there's that misconception that somehow we're we're creating our own forecasts and believing our own forecasts. And really, it's a bit simpler than that. We take in the requests and we respond to those requests. We have to be able to look out a few years to make sure that we're not missing, you know, anything significant that would have an impact on our system, but we don't get too far ahead from an investment standpoint. Trevor Freeman 16:31 Okay? So Guillaume, we've been talking about the more traditional aspects of our grid, you know, poles, wires, transformers, et cetera. But I know that we're also looking at how we can deploy what we call non-wire solutions to also help manage capacity on our grid. Can you just explain what some of these solutions are and how we're going to use them in conjunction with our traditional assets to manage grid needs? Guillaume Paradis 16:56 Yeah, so non-wire alternatives is essentially the concept that without having to install traditional infrastructure—think poles, new transformers, new cables, underground—you may be able to harvest existing resources within your footprint to help you manage operational needs, be it like certain peaks that have a short duration, other scenarios of constraints, where, rather than building net new infrastructure, which is expensive and time-consuming, you might be able to optimize, I'll call it, the use of embedded resources in a manner that actually meets your operational objectives. So the way you would do that is by using a combination of resources. Typically, you would look at small-scale embedded storage. So if it exists in the system, you would actually leverage it. If, if you could, otherwise, you might install some in a very targeted manner that helps you meet those operational needs, and then otherwise you would leverage customer resources. So that's either existing generation that is owned by customers, or which is more typical, their ability to adjust their demand at certain times to meet your operational constraints. So the idea there is that you can do a business case, you can do an evaluation of what it would take to engage all these resources to get the same operational outcome as you would if you build the new infrastructure, and compare the two on a cost basis. And actually, in some instances, see scenarios where those non-wire alternatives actually beat out large-scale infrastructure upgrades from a financial standpoint. So it's, it's an evolving area. We have a few pockets within the city that we're targeting for programs like those ones, and we expect, over time, as more embedded resources proliferate, as more customer devices become controllable, we'll have a greater option, in fact, to leverage those non-wire alternatives or those non-traditional solutions to meet our operational requirements. Trevor Freeman 19:20 Great. So this is a combination of, you know, Hydro Ottawa is planning to invest in some assets, you know, be they battery or otherwise, on our side of the meter. We call that in front of the meter, to help manage grid needs, while also looking for opportunities to partner with customers, you know, in the aggregate, so, you know, 100 or 1000 customers at once to say, "If we need to call on your devices to either inject into the grid or to ramp back your operations, that will help us manage grid needs while the customer still maintains control." Is that fair to say? Guillaume Paradis 19:59 Yeah. Fair, and that's that's an emerging capacity we have. So if our ability to control and call upon a very large number of small devices and customer devices has grown and is growing and will be over the next few years, and with that, our capacity to then draw from those resources to respond to operational circumstances is also increasing and will give us options we just wouldn't have had in the past. So it's just a better way of utilizing available energy resources, a more refined way, and one that probably wasn't available to us at scale 10 years ago. Yeah. Trevor Freeman 20:41 And the driver behind all this is what's the best, most cost-effective way to address that grid need? In some cases, it's going to be the poles and wires and transformers. In some cases, it's going to be these non-wire solutions, and it's it's part of the planning of the grid to identify where does each technology make sense? Guillaume Paradis 21:02 Absolutely. So again, it's a more refined way of assessing options and ensuring that we identify the most cost-effective strategies possible. Trevor Freeman 21:14 Perfect, great. Okay, so that's the growth and electrification section. Let's move to aging infrastructure, which is about a third of this investment plan. So this may seem like a softball to start with, but what are some of the challenges posed by aging infrastructure? Maybe talk to us a little bit about what that infrastructure is when it comes to utility grid, and then what are what are we doing with this investment plan to address that aging infrastructure? Guillaume Paradis 21:43 Yeah, so aging infrastructure is a very clear and appropriate descriptor here. So we invest in assets that are long-lived. Think 50, 60 years plus in some instances. And you know, eventually you use them, you leverage them over many decades, and at some point, those assets deteriorate beyond a point where they're no longer able to provide the service that our customers expect. So that would be failures, which leads to reliability issues in parts of our system. So one at one point or another in the life cycle of those assets, depending on how they're being used, what environment they are operated in, you have to replace them. What we try to do is assess them on a risk basis. And when we say risk, we mean what impact can they have on our customers if they were to fail? Impacts can be things like safety risk. It could be, of course, reliability issues. It could limit our ability to service our customers. And so we assess risk on an ongoing basis, looking at those assets over decades, and eventually we get to a point where the risk has to be addressed, and that typically takes the form of or it can take the form of an outright replacement. Through the life cycle of all those assets, all of our assets, we do maintenance, we inspect them, we try to see if there are other things we can do before we replace them. But you get to a point ultimately, where the only option that's viable is to actually replace, and then you have to go in and take, you know, action physically in the field.Now, what becomes a little complicated is, as you can imagine, it's one thing to put infrastructure up when a field is being converted to a subdivision or the city's growing, and it's all brand new, you know, infrastructure being developed to support the growth, but decades later, when you come back, 60, 70 years plus, in some cases, you're in someone's backyard. You're in the middle of an intersection where multiple utilities have installed their own infrastructure, so you have to coordinate that things have been moved over time. So getting access to the infrastructure is more difficult, and so replacing many decades later is a lot more involved than putting up new infrastructure in the first place.And the type of infrastructure that we're talking about here probably falls into three major categories. So there's the overhead infrastructure you see around town. So really, when you—and you shouldn't do that while you're driving, but if you're walking ideally, and you're looking at the beautiful hydro infrastructure around Ottawa—what you'll see are very old poles that need attention. So that's very visible, right? We have wood poles, you know, in a lot of the areas of our city, and you get to a point where structurally, they're not as strong as they used to be. They've weathered many storms, and they need attention. And then otherwise, it's the transformers you might see on those poles, and that would be the boxes that are hanging from the poles. The ones that look like they, you know, predate the Cold War, are the ones we're going after, and we need to give some attention to today.And then on the underground side, similar infrastructure, it's it's cables in the ground. So in some instances, it's buried directly in someone's backyard. That was an approach people took many decades back. Now you can imagine it's very convenient when you're building it, but not so much when you're trying to get it out of the ground and put new cables into the ground. So there's cables that need replacing. They've been damaged or creating reliability issues. The transformers that go with that as well might need attention. And again, as I mentioned before, decades later, that transformer may be right behind someone's pool in their backyard, and they've done some real nice landscaping, and accessing it for a replacement is a lot more complicated. So underground infrastructure, in fact, is one of the more complicated replacements to execute.And then, you know, if you move up from there, you're looking at substation equipment. So that's the stuff that's fenced in across the city where power is being delivered from to our customers across the city. And so those assets may be a bit less complicated in terms of managing sites and access, but certainly complicated in terms of logistics costs of the equipment. Those are very, very large assets that require a lot of planning to replace because they're critical to our system, and we can't afford to have them be out of service too long. Trevor Freeman 27:01 Got you and just for our listeners, while Guillaume was talking, I pulled up a few quick stats here. So we have Hydro Ottawa's service territory has over 6,000 kilometers of conductor, so of wires, and just under 50,000 poles out in our service territory. So as you can imagine, a lot of that is in great shape, and some of it isn't, and some of it needs to be addressed, just like, just like you're talking about here. Guillaume Paradis 27:29 Yeah, and that's helpful. Trevor, the thing that we often forget, especially for electricity distribution, is the sheer number of assets that can create a risk. So it's one thing to manage one large transformer and make sure it doesn't fail, but when you're talking about thousands of assets dispersed around a very large service territory like Ottawa, making sure that we keep an eye on all of them at all times, making sure that we intervene at the exact time prior to a failure, to make sure we deliver the best service possible for our customers. That's really the essence of our challenge, and what makes distribution unique versus other parts of our business, where it's maybe more centralized and you may be looking at a smaller set of assets. Trevor Freeman 28:16 Yeah, absolutely okay. So obviously it's important to maintain what we've got, in addition to building out that new stuff that we talked about earlier, maintaining and replacing what we have, so that, you know, our existing grid remains reliable. The next section of our investment plan is what we call grid modernization. Now that's something that we've talked about to varying levels of detail on this show before, but I'd like you to talk us through what is in this investment plan over the next five years, when we talk about grid modernization, what are we actually doing? What are some of the specific things that we're going to put some of our investment towards? Guillaume Paradis 28:57 Yeah, so grid modernization is a category that gets talked about a lot, but maybe is, I would say, a bit misunderstood. I think, because it sounds futuristic, people assume we're doing very different things, and ultimately, in my mind, it's better leveraging technology to get good outcomes for our customers. It's really that simple. So as you can imagine, you know, as I talked about, we're looking at assets that have an expected life of 50, 60, 70 years. When some of our assets were first installed, things like communication technology, things like IT operational technology weren't as advanced as they are today. Our ability to collect data in real time was not what it is today, and so now that we have an opportunity to reinvest and replace the old assets. It's important that we do so in a manner that will allow us to drive or essentially more performance or better performance out of the assets we put in our system so that can take various forms, as I mentioned, getting better real-time information is one of those ways in which we can leverage technology. What that allows us to do is better respond to outages, offer a better service by being more aware of what's happening at any given point in time, getting better information in near real time as to what assets are posing a risk to reliability because they've been utilized heavily, or they've seen a lot of faults, for example, and so building in that technological infrastructure as a layer that enhances the traditional investments that we've always made is sort of the right thing to do in a context where you want to optimize where you spend your dollars, and you don't want to have to go back and reinvest on the same assets or in the same parts of our system multiple times over the coming years, in the coming decades. So the grid modernization portfolio essentially is our opportunity to very strategically identify where we can put in technology that will allow us to get more out of our assets and provide a better service for our customers.So simple things like automated devices, that would be automated switches that we install on our overhead infrastructure, underground infrastructure that gives us a capacity during an outage, to shift demand around and resupply our customers more rapidly than we would have been able to otherwise, and that gives us a capacity to provide a better service under contingency scenarios. So very simple, right? It's telemetry, it's communication to a device, and rather than have someone physically go in the field and, you know, switch customers and try to move demand around, we can do that remotely from our control center. Likewise, in the control center, putting in more telemetry to identify and proactively suggest to our operators how to restore power to customers. Again, is a simple thing by today's standards, right? It's not complicated technology, it's not complicated software, but it's a layer that didn't exist previously, where we can have software, model-based tools suggest how best to optimize the restoration of power, and as we do that, our trained operators get to review and take action in an informed manner. So grid modernization, again, is about making the most of today's available technology, while we reinvest in our distribution system to make sure that the quality of our service and the breadth of the services we can provide align well going forward, with our customers' aspirations and provide a quality service for many decades to come. Trevor Freeman 33:26 Yeah, and I think it's important to remember. And you know this, this little saying has has been out there in the industry, and I've used it before, of the electricity grid is the world's largest machine. Like the grid itself is a piece of technology, and like any technology, we would not be happy if it stayed stagnant. Like we want it to evolve with with the latest and greatest and operate better and more efficiently. And the grid is no different, and so part of grid modernization is just keeping up with what's out there to make sure we are delivering the service that we deliver in the best way, in the most advanced way, in the most efficient way possible. With that, Guillaume, what about things like, you know, we hear a lot about more distributed energy resources, so more small-scale generation or storage out there on the grid that might be owned by the utility, but it might not be, it might be customer owned. What? What are we doing from a grid modernization perspective, to enable more distributed energy resources to utilize those assets more on our grid? Guillaume Paradis 34:42 Yeah, so that's core to the evolution and we're proposing and working toward. And and really, if you boil it down to, you know, a simple kind of concept, it's really that traditionally, we've had a static model of how our grid needs to operate, and we planned accordingly. So you know, power flows in one direction to certain size customers. They use electricity, they use our energy, and then we protect, we coordinate, we control accordingly, and we're moving into an environment where customer behavior evolves in a dynamic fashion in near real time, depending on what prices are available in the electricity market, depending on what aspirations various customers have, depending on what technology they want to deploy to manage their energy footprint. A customer may look different, really, from one day to the next, as far as the electricity system is concerned, because their demand might be less significant on a day where their solar panels are better able to generate energy, on a day where they choose to leverage a large battery system that they've installed at their facilities to manage their demand. And so from an electricity system standpoint, we need a much better awareness of what is happening in near real time to be able to control and then respond and ultimately offer the right service for our customers. So that's a big change, again, going back to the how we're going to enable that, it's again, the core elements of communication infrastructure, more telemetry, so that we can see what's happening in real time. Think sensors, think smart meters. Think, you know, a software system within our control room to take all that information in in real time and make sense of it, and then ultimately drive our decision making and support our customers in leveraging energy resources in an optimal way for their needs, by making sure that we're aware of what's happening and not create barriers that are artificial because we're not sure, and when we're not sure, safety is paramount, and when you prioritize safety and you don't have information, you have to be very conservative in the decisions you make, and you may limit customers' choices and behavioral, you know, choices by having to have that safety margin and that safety conscience kind of override everything else. So better telemetry, better real-time information, more dynamic ways of controlling energy allows us to enable customers and and support their aspirations.  Trevor Freeman 37:50 I mean, it really comes kind of full circle back to our job is to let our customers do what they want to do when it comes to energy, enable that, and that may be just making sure the power is there and available, but it also may be making sure that our grid is set up to allow them to generate and store and sort of interact with energy in the way that they want to. So those two things are quite parallel. Okay, great. Last category here is grid resilience, and this is an important one, and especially in the eyes of our customers, because, you know, we're that unique industry where most of the time people don't think of us when they really do think about us, it's because the lights have gone off, because there's some event that has resulted in an outage, and I just want to ensure our customers, we try very, very hard to make sure that doesn't happen as much as we can't control everything. So we have this category of grid resilience in our investment plan, and we know that we're going to be seeing, and we have already started to see, more frequent extreme weather events. That is increasing. It's not going down. So what are we doing in our investment plan? Or what are we planning to do in order to enhance grid resiliency and withstand those extreme weather events? Guillaume Paradis 39:14 Yeah, so the need for resilience, in my mind, comes from a couple places. So, you know, there are drivers that are external; so the operating environment is evolving. To your point, we've seen a number of very impactful weather events over the last few years, whether it be historically impactful ice storms, we've seen tornadoes in our service territory in a way that we didn't previously. We saw derecho a couple years ago, which was by some measure the most impactful storm in the history of our company. And so we know. How what we plan to withstand has evolved, and we need to reflect that in the decisions we make when we invest in our infrastructure. That can take a few forms. But for grid resilience, we're targeting specific investments so we can identify and have identified areas of our system that are more vulnerable. Imagine overhead infrastructure that is more exposed to stronger winds, and so we can go in there and then target those areas, target those segments of our system and make them more robust, more resistant to those external factors. And so we have assessed our entire service territory, we've studied, you know, our vulnerability to changing patterns, to changing weather events, and in a very targeted manner, identified areas where we'll take action over the next five years to boost resilience of our electricity system in those scenarios, and really just generally.The other element is, while those external factors are evolving and creating a stress on our system, we're also seeing people's dependence on electricity's availability continue to grow, right? So, you know, we've been through this many times at this point, and I'm sure it's been covered on on this podcast a number of times. But, you know, people's, you know, need for highly and readily available electricity continues to go up. Think, you know, remote work. Think our utilization of, you know, the internet and the technologies that support that. People need access to power, you know, on an ongoing basis for a variety of reasons that support their lifestyles. And so while the external factors have become and are becoming more challenging and creating a stress, we're also seeing customers relying more heavily on our service being available. And so those things combined make it sort of an imperative that we take action and ensure that our system is robust and can withstand those conditions that are upon us.So we change our planning approach. We evolve our choices with respect to investments. It could be simpler things than, you know, targeting areas and replacing specific infrastructure. It could be as simple as changing our standards so that when we install a new pole, we know that it can withstand harsher winds and heavier ice loading parameters, and we do that across all our investments. So that's a key point here, with respect to grid resilience. Yes, we have a targeted, sort of very strategic approach to building resilience, but we also do that across all our investment categories, when we put money in our distribution system to make sure that, similar to the point we made about technology. You know, we invest in assets that will, you know, outlive many of us, and they need to be adequate and appropriate for the environment in which they will operate long-term. So we change, you know, the choices we make, we change the materials we use to build the infrastructure that we put in our system, so that ultimately, the service levels and service quality that our customers get to enjoy, you know, meets their expectations for decades to come. Trevor Freeman 43:59 I think the idea like it's good that we have called out specifically some activities targeted at group resilience, but some of the other stuff that we've already talked about also support resilience. And you mentioned in the grid modernization part, you know, part of that is restoring power to most customers quicker. In our growth and electrification part, I mean, making sure that our grid can handle the new loads also lends itself to resiliency. So all of this is in service of making sure that power is there for our customers when they need it, how they need it, and done in a sort of safe and affordable way. That's the goal of of all these categories together. Guillaume Paradis 44:46 Absolutely. The, you know, going back to the earlier point, the categories are helpful in identifying the major drivers. But ultimately, to your point, Trevor, they all support each other, and when our team plans, depends the future of electricity system. They do so in an integrated manner that considers the various benefits that we can achieve by taking action and putting more money in our distribution system. Trevor Freeman 45:13 Yeah, great. So that that's a nice segue into this next question, which is, of course, there's a cost for this, and this and this is why it is an investment plan. We're out there outlining these are our targets. This is what we want to do, but there's a cost to that, and so if we don't do this, if we said, "Look, we just can't put that extra investment into these areas," what are the implications on the grid, on our service? And let's look at kind of like quality of service, reliability, safety, et cetera, if we don't make these investments that we are identifying right now. Guillaume Paradis 45:54 Yeah, so it's pretty direct, right? We what we've done for the in preparation for our rate application, in preparation for to develop our plans for 2026 to 2030, is we've considered all the needs. We've looked at how old the assets are, how quickly they're deteriorating, how many might require replacement over the next five years. What would be an appropriate rate of replacement to ensure that we don't let risk build up in our system, we don't cause reliability issues? We've looked at making sure that we can provide service to our customers, that we can connect them in a timely manner, that we can do all those things in a fashion that is safe and ensures the safety of the public, our customers. And so a lot of thought goes into what is required over the next five years. And then on top of those factors and considerations, we also look at what impact will this have financially on our customers? Because we're mindful that our service does affect, you know, our customers' lives, yes, in a positive manner when our service is reliable and power is available, but also financially from a cost standpoint. We add to other pressures that everyone experiences in their lives, and so we want to be very judicious in setting the size of our programs, the level of investments, in managing those various factors, right? So we have a multifaceted responsibility, and we weigh all those factors in our or in setting the plans for the future.So doing so, looking five years out, as you can probably imagine, you know, if we didn't constrain the plans, if we just did everything our planning engineers would like to do, we would have spent probably another 50% more than what is in the current plan. So looking at old assets, looking at the service levels we want to deliver, we could have spent a significantly larger amount of money if it was purely based on, we'll call them planning, you know, drivers. But as I said, we are mindful that we're responsible for the quality of our service on behalf of all our customers, and we took a very deliberate, you know, extensive approach to adjusting the program size to match the various considerations and ultimately manage the impact on our customers from a financial standpoint. And so we landed where we are after some measure of restraint, some measure of adjustments, down to the plans that would otherwise have been put in place.So thinking about what the outcomes would be if we didn't take the actions we're proposing, you know, it's pretty direct, if you think about it, and we've covered most of them, but it ranges from, you know, difficulties in connecting and delivering power to new customers in a timely manner, so that can have impacts with respect to economic development and growth of our community, so fairly direct, and frankly, it's our obligation to connect, so we would do everything we can to provide power, but it might just be more difficult, take more time on the reliability front. Again, what happens when you don't replace old assets is the failure risks continue to build in your system. So an 80-year-old wood pole doesn't get any younger and doesn't get any stronger if you wait five, six more years. And so as I said, we do a risk assessment before we choose to invest, and our risk assessments tell us that we need to take action on those types of assets. And, you know, take action in a timely manner. If we don't, what is likely to happen is that in a storm scenario, those poles that are deteriorated are more likely to fail. Even in normal conditions, it's likely that we would see more failures that could lead to reliability issues, and so just a direct impact on the quality of our service for our customers, with respect to other outcomes like enabling customers and supporting them in integrating more embedded energy resources. That might just become more difficult, as I said earlier, when we don't have good real-time awareness, we have to err on the side of caution and be more conservative in our management of the system, and that might mean restrictions on where and how we can integrate renewable energy resources. And then ultimately, you know, the paramount consideration for us is always safety, and that's an area where we would just have to be even more vigilant if we couldn't reinvest. So old assets, you know, are inherently more likely to create failure risks, and failures can lead to undesirable outcomes from a safety standpoint, so we would have to, and already do, but be very vigilant in monitoring those assets, looking at them, looking at what we can do from a maintenance standpoint to ensure that they don't fail in a manner that would be problematic. So we would be, and are always very active in looking at those riskier assets, those older assets, to make sure they don't cause problems, but reducing investment levels from what is being proposed now, reducing them further relative to, as I said, the planning levels we would have liked to put forward would have real consequences, and of course, we would do everything we can to manage those consequences and ensure that we continue to deliver the best service we can, but that would become more difficult than it is today. Trevor Freeman 52:27 I appreciate that that context of, you know, you like me, like energy, and we want to do all the cool things, and we want to have the system that is is absolutely able to handle every eventuality. But we have to balance that with what is the right level of investment, what is the right pace to go at? And I think, you know, having seen the process, there's been a lot of work over the last year plus to find that balance. And I think we've, we've hit that balance in terms of being able to move the ball forward while trying to maintain that sort of affordability aspect for customers. Last question here, Guillaume, to kind of wrap it all up, and we've touched on this a few times in some of the other questions. But how does our investment plan align with that broader energy transition that that we talk about, you know, decarbonizing, reducing emissions, increasing sort of customer flexibility when it comes to their own generation and storage. And what role do you see Hydro Ottawa playing moving forward in that? And I know that this has already gotten a little bit of attention, but I'll give you a chance just to kind of tie a nice little bow around it at the end. Guillaume Paradis 53:51 So to your point, we did cover a few elements, how we enable those, you know, sustainability aspirations. But you know, it ranges from making it possible for large customers to shift a significant portion of their energy demand to a lower carbon source like electricity. So again, think a customer who would use natural gas for their facilities, and, you know, for corporate reasons, decides to use electricity instead. Us connecting that extra demand and delivering power to them allows them to lower their carbon footprint. So that would be on the high end in terms of size and impact, all the way to enabling customers to install different technologies on their homes, within their homes, to reduce their carbon footprint and change how they use energy. So it could be as simple as buying an EV and making sure that power is available within that neighborhood to supply demand from that EV. It could be them installing solar panels on their roof and trying to export power back to us. And so that would tie to the earlier point around visibility and real-time awareness that we need to have to make sure that we can make that possible. So again, you know the energy system. The electricity system is integrated in so many ways and enabling our customers to achieve their sustainability outcomes, their desired outcomes in terms of energy use, comes from planning the energy system, the electricity distribution system, in a manner that supports that and that permits it. So again, going back to some categories, the grid modernization that we spoke about earlier, fits right in there. So being aware allows us to allow and enable customers, and that becomes critical again, in an environment where things are very dynamic, and we want to support that dynamism, and we need to do so in a manner that's safe. So we need information, and we need technology that allows us to go get that information to support the decision making. So as we said, all the investments we're proposing in one way or another will support our supporting those decarbonization and emission reduction objectives that we all have. Trevor Freeman 56:38 Right? Yeah, it really comes back to the idea of us being—and this is something that I certainly talk to our customers about—a lot of us being partners with our customers when it comes to their energy journeys. And that can be very active partners in the sense of the word, where we are involved in helping make decisions together on technology or strategies, or it can be very passive, and that kind of residential model that you talked about of just making sure the grid can be there in the way that the customer wants it to be there. And that's still a partnership that that we need to lean into, and that we are kind of through this investment. Guillaume Paradis 57:18 Plan, we're essentially underpinning people's aspirations when it comes to energy, and so we're there to make it possible for them to do what they're hoping to do. And you're absolutely right. We're seeing both ends of those conversations where some go about their own choices and really don't need us involved, and our responsibility there is to make sure that we don't create a roadblock by not being prepared and not being equipped to respond to, you know, how they want to change their behavior, all the way to that partnership, where it's a very involved conversation. You know, we're being brought in to fully explore all the options and work with stakeholders in essentially demystifying, or maybe more specifically, sort of seeing through some of the complexity that exists today in an environment that is much more dynamic again and offers a lot more options than people would have seen a few decades ago. Trevor Freeman 58:23 Fantastic. Well, Guillaume, I think we'll leave it there. This has been great, and I appreciate you taking the time to help pick apart, you know what? What can be a pretty complex, lengthy plan, but really boils down to building out the grid, continuing to do the great work that that the folks at Hydro Ottawa do, while also preparing for the future. So I appreciate your insight into this. As our listeners know, we always end these interviews with a series of questions, and you're no different. So I'm going to dive, dive right into that. So Guillaume, what is a book that you've read that you think everyone should read? Guillaume Paradis 59:06 Yeah, so I'm probably going to get his name wrong, or at least the pronunciation, but it's a book called How the World Really Works, by Vaclav Smil. Essentially, you know, he's a very pragmatic thinker with respect to how systems work, how our world is integrated from a supply standpoint, from a geopolitical standpoint, and how that leads to outcomes in the real world. And think things like energy, think, things like food supply. And what I like with his approach is that he breaks things down, sort of from a first-principle standpoint, to try to help explain why certain things may or may not be possible, and in an environment where—and maybe that's my perspective—but I think today there's a lot of big-picture, you know, broad opinions being shared by people who may or may not always be very knowledgeable or have the expertise in certain fields. It's nice to see someone kind of break things down to then try to support, or in some cases dispel certain misconceptions. So really nice approach. He has a number of books that are similar in nature, some cases a bit dense to read through, frankly, but I would say the How the World Really Works book is easier to digest, and it's it's a good entry into kind of his works and and his approach to his studies. The other thing that's a plus, maybe, is that he's based out of Winnipeg and Canadian. So it's great to have a mind like his, you know, contributing to the discourse in Canada. Trevor Freeman 1:01:11 Awesome. So same question, but for a movie or a show, what's a movie or show that you think everyone should check out? Guillaume Paradis 1:01:17 Yeah, that's a little harder. I think maybe I'll go to an old classic. For me, I I'm always impressed with extreme creativity. I'll call it in in whatever forms that I think it's neat to see how people can envision a world or create a world. And so an example for me was The Grand Budapest Hotel movie by Wes Anderson. So, you know, I think people are familiar with his work by now. I just like the combination of humor, color, like the creation of a world that doesn't quite exist but resembles one we might know. And just, you know, it's a way of expressing oneself that is so interesting, so different. He does it really, really well. And, you, know, I find it sort of like awe-inspiring to go back to those kind of movies and look at, certainly, there's all sorts of good content these days that's being produced. But I think this one is kind of withstood the test of time so far and and kind of brings you to a different place. So I'll point to that. Trevor Freeman 1:02:30 Yeah, it's one of those where it's not just about the story. The whole watching that movie is a bit of an experience. And all the ways that you just said, you know, there's like an artificial aspect to it. There's that sort of mental, emotional side of it, and then there's the story itself, with the humor and everything. So, yeah, that's a great one. I really like that. Guillaume Paradis 1:02:47 Always fascinating to think someone was able to come up with that, right? Like that. Yeah, totally level. Like the attention to details, the way in which the storylines are integrated, the way in which the decors, the images are graphic. It's just remarkable. And, and I think in anything it's really cool to see people who are sort of masters at their art, right? And whatever form, and there's all sorts of other examples, but that one, you know, came to mind. Yeah, very cool. Trevor Freeman 1:03:21 If you had a free round-trip flight anywhere in the world, where would you go? Guillaume Paradis 1:03:25 I think for me, it'd be somewhere very far north. I think it's on the list somewhere for the next few years. But just getting access to lands, scenery that you wouldn't otherwise is a really cool concept, maybe even spaces that are a bit less impacted by human, you know, behavior and presence. So I just think a flight to somewhere random that maybe doesn't even have a name, but is in between two small villages that can only be accessed by a plane. I think that would be cool. Trevor Freeman 1:04:10 Yeah, that does sound very cool. I like that. Who is someone that you admire? Guillaume Paradis 1:04:15 Yeah, so my wife, for sure. I think that's sort of the foundation of a healthy relationship, you should have some admiration for your partner, and I absolutely do. More generally, I would just point to anyone in our lives, and I think we all know people like that who spend a large amount of their time making other people's lives better. I could pick, you know, a celebrity of some kind, or politician of some kind, or even a historical figure, but, you know, I think in general, it doesn't have to be that complicated. People who just invest a lot of their time, you know, making sure others' lives are better. I think that's that's something we should all admire, aspire to, you know, emulate, if we can, and just recognize as well. Because a lot of the times people do that, the people who do it well, don't do it for recognition. It doesn't mean they don't deserve it. And I think we should kind of try to promote it, you know, recognize it in our lives, and encourage it and emulate it, if we can. Trevor Freeman 1:05:30 Fantastic. Well said, last question, what is something about the energy sector or its future that you are particularly excited about? Guillaume Paradis 1:05:37 Yeah, so I've been in the sector for about 20 years now, in fact, longer than that. My father worked for Hydro Quebec for many decades. So think we spent a lot of time talking about the future and getting excited about a future that was to come, and just the fact that we're living it now, that we're actually shaping it, is pretty exciting, maybe even not appreciated to its full extent. And I think having a chance to contribute now is really awesome, and to whatever extent we can as well. I'm trying to encourage as many people as possible to join our sector, bring various backgrounds, you know, expertise, knowledge to helping us make decisions about how energy is going to be used in our society going forward, and how we can make the most, you know, this confluence of factors that, you know, create the window of opportunity to to change things and make them evolve. And so for those of us who are part of it, let's not take it for granted, and let's make sure that we contribute to the full extent of our capabilities. Trevor Freeman 1:06:58 Awesome, great, great way to wrap this up. I agree completely. Guillaume, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And sharing your thoughts with us. Really appreciate you coming on the show. Guillaume Paradis 1:07:07 Thanks, Trevor. Pleasure. Trevor Freeman 1:07:10 Great, take care. Well, there you have it, everybody. That was our last episode of the season before our summer break. Our regular listeners will know that we typically take a break over the summer to regroup and work on content and plan out the next year. But don't worry, we will be still releasing episodes every two weeks. They will just be rewind episodes, and we'll take a look back at some of our favorite episodes or things that we feel are particularly relevant for what's going on right now. So keep tuning in and listen to those, and we will be back with brand new content in September. Take care and have a safe summer. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the ThinkEnergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].

We've all been there, trying to decode a document filled with acronyms and numbers. In this episode of thinkenergy, host Trevor Freeman pulls back the curtain on the typical Ontario electricity bill. Learn about what makes up your monthly bill and exactly where your money goes. From generation mix to infrastructure and provincial differences, tune in as Trevor sheds light on the diverse factors that influence electricity prices across Canada.   Related links   Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en     To subscribe using Apple Podcasts:  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405   To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl   To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/user/hydroottawalimited   Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hydroottawa   Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HydroOttawa   Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod   Transcript: Trevor Freeman: Welcome to a ThinkEnergy Short, hosted by me, Trevor Freeman. This is a bite-sized episode designed to be a quick summary of a specific topic or idea related to the world of energy. This is meant to round out our collective understanding of the energy sector and will complement our normal guest interview episodes. Thanks for joining and happy listening. Hi everyone, and welcome back to another ThinkEnergy Short. I'm your host, Trevor Freeman. Today, I want to pull apart something pretty fundamental to your relationship with your utility, and something that might seem kind of basic on the surface, but there's actually a lot to it. I'm talking about your bill and how you are billed for electricity in this province, in the province of Ontario. A lot of folks may not pay much attention to their bill, other than the total at the bottom, or maybe you also look at the total consumption number. But there are actually several different components to your bill, and understanding them will help you understand a little bit more about the electricity sector and how it works and how it's funded. And we'll also take a minute to look at electricity costs in Ontario compared to other provinces, and why there's a difference. Now, there's a lot to go through here. I'm going to do my best to get through it quickly while still explaining everything. But this may be more of a "ThinkEnergy Medium" instead of a "Short." There's just a lot of content to get through. So, let's dive right in. Obviously, we're coming to you from Ottawa here, so we're going to be speaking in the context of Hydro Ottawa. But really, what we're talking about is pretty consistent across the province of Ontario. Your bill in Ontario is generally divided into a couple of different sections: your electricity charges, which could include things like Global Adjustment; delivery charges; regulatory charges; and then you'll see HST, some credits or rebates potentially, and maybe a few other sections, depending on what type of customer you are. So, let's take it from the top. First off, your electricity charge. This is the cost of the actual power you consume. You will see this expressed as cents per kilowatt-hour. This is the commodity cost of the electricity, of those electrons that you're using in your home or your business to do the things you need to do. In Ontario, most residential customers and a lot of small commercial customers as well are on the Regulated Price Plan, or RPP. The Ontario Energy Board, which is Ontario's independent energy regulator—it's the regulatory body in the province—sets the RPP price for the province based on its forecast of the cost to supply households and small businesses over the next 12 months. So, that's stable, predictable electricity pricing for Ontarians, and new rates generally take effect on November 1 of every year. So you have those rates for typically 12 months, and they change each year on November 1. There are a couple of different options for how you're billed for electricity under the RPP, which you might be familiar with. There's time-of-use pricing, which has a different rate depending on the time of day or the day of the week. So you've got on-peak, mid-peak, or off-peak, and those are aligned to encourage customers to use electricity outside of the peak demand times in the province when everybody is trying to use electricity for things at home or for work, and there's the most stress on the grid. The exact times of those periods do change between summer and winter. The next option is tiered pricing, and so this is a fixed price per kilowatt-hour up to a certain threshold each month. So you can use a certain amount of electricity at one price. If you go past that threshold, the price goes up. And that's kind of a plan for those who like a consistent amount; they don't want to have to worry about what time of day it is, or maybe the way they've structured their lives or their businesses is such that they have to use electricity during peak times, so that may make sense for them. The other option is Ultra-Low Overnight, or ULO, pricing. This is really a rate that's focused on primarily electric vehicle owners because it has a very, very low overnight rate. And the idea is that you would charge your electric vehicle—it's a big load in your house or in your business—and you would move that load to be overnight. You would charge it overnight and avoid doing that during the day, because in order to make up for that ultra-low overnight rate, there's a much higher on-peak rate kind of in the late afternoon and evening. So you'd really want to avoid using electricity as much as possible. The overall goal of all these programs, as I said, is to really reduce strain on the grid during those peak times, and that will in turn reduce greenhouse gas emissions because our fossil fuel generation in Ontario—that's natural gas generation—is primarily used during peak times. So we call them our peaker plants, and those are turned on when we need to make up that sort of highest demand load that occurs just a few times during each day and indeed during the year. The reason that we're able to do these different rates is that over a decade ago, Ontario adopted the use of smart meters for electricity, which accurately measures and tracks electricity usage down to at least the hour, sometimes even more granular than that, and that allows for utilities to really tailor pricing plans around timed consumption. It's worth noting here that if you have signed a contract with an electricity retailer, your electricity charge will be based on the price you agreed to in that contract. So there are retailers out there who will come to you and say, "Hey, we can guarantee you this price of electricity, and it's not going to change for the life of the contract, or whatever their terms may be." And maybe that's a better deal for you, or maybe that makes more sense for your situation. So you can sign on to that. You will be charged at that contracted rate rather than the Regulated Price Plan, and you won't be subject to the changes of that Regulated Price Plan; you'll be with your retailer. That said, you will still see other charges like delivery charges and regulatory charges, which we will get to in a minute. Before we go there, I do want to quickly talk about commercial customers, because that is a slightly different structure to the electricity charge section. So in that electricity charge section, there is a line item that is the market cost of electricity, and that does change month-to-month. And in fact, it also changes from customer to customer. Basically, there's a price every hour, and that customer's usage over that month results in a prorated price. And so on their bill, they will see the price that they're paying, the market cost of electricity that they've used in that month. There is also a line item for Global Adjustment, which is a very unique Ontario charge. To my knowledge, it only exists in Ontario. So let's take a minute to talk about what Global Adjustment is. There is a certain cost to running the electricity grid in Ontario, and that cost factors in maintenance and planning and conservation programs, as well as long-term fixed contracts. So the system operator signs contracts with generators to supply electricity at a certain rate. The market price of electricity isn't always enough to make up that full cost. So what we pay, the market rate, isn't enough; sometimes Global Adjustment is what makes up the difference. Now, every electricity customer in Ontario pays Global Adjustment, whether you see it on your bill or not. For residential and small commercial customers that are on the RPP, Global Adjustment is built into their rates that I just described above. But for commercial customers, you actually see that as a separate line item. And for most commercial customers, that is a rate that's tied to your consumption. So the more you use, the more Global Adjustment you pay. There is an option for the largest consumers to change that equation about how you're paid or how you're charged Global Adjustment, but we're not going to get into that in this episode. So that is the electricity portion of your bill. Another quick note here: all the money that you pay for this portion of the bill goes upstream, basically to the generators and the system operators and other players in the system. Your distributor, who actually gives you the bill—so Hydro Ottawa, in my case—doesn't actually keep any of this, nor do they set those rates. That is all upstream of us. That is not the distribution company's territory. We just are the ones that provide the bill and collect what you pay. Next section is delivery charges. So delivery charges cover the cost of getting electricity from the generating stations all the way to your home or business. It's essentially the cost of building, maintaining, and operating the vast network of transmission lines and towers, distribution systems like their lines and poles and substations and transformers, and all the equipment that's necessary to get electricity to you, to your home or to your business, and also to repair outages. So if there's a storm and lines are down, it's the delivery charges that fund the exercise of going out there and repairing that. So if you think of electricity as the product, the delivery charge is the logistics behind that. So it's like the warehouses and the trucks and the route to get that package to your doorstep. The same thing happens with the electricity system. Some of that delivery charge is fixed, and it doesn't change month to month, no matter what consumption you have, so how much you're using. That's why sometimes you'll hear people say, "Oh, you know, my electricity consumption was super low, but my delivery charge didn't change. That's not fair." And the reality is that we still need to maintain that grid. Even if you have a month where you're not using a lot of electricity, you still want those poles and wires and transformers to be there and to be working and ready for you when you are going to use a lot of electricity. There's also a customer service charge within that delivery charge, so that kind of covers the meter reading, the billing, the customer service; maintaining that infrastructure is included in there. There's a distribution charge, and that's kind of the main portion that Hydro Ottawa keeps, as well as that customer service charge, and that is for us to maintain the distribution system. And then there's a transmission charge that is to do the same thing, except for the high-voltage transmission system that brings electricity across the province. There is also a line loss adjustment. Now, it's normal for a small amount of electricity to be lost as heat when it travels over power lines. That's just the reality of moving electricity over long distances, and you will see a small adjustment on your bill to account for these line losses, to make sure that all the electricity being generated is actually being paid for. And your local distribution utility, again, Hydro Ottawa, in my case, collects this money and keeps the portion that's meant for the distribution company and pays the rest to all the various other stakeholders in the system that make up the electricity sector. It's important to know that these delivery rates are reviewed and approved by the Ontario Energy Board based on the specific needs and the priorities of each utility. So this is the nature of us being a regulated industry. Our regulator, the Ontario Energy Board, has to approve the rates that we charge. We have to show to the Ontario Energy Board, "Here is what all of our costs are to maintain the system. Here is what we want to do to grow and expand in order to meet our customer needs. Here are all the programs that we're running, and therefore, here are the rates that we need to charge." And the Ontario Energy Board will actually make a ruling on that to say, "Yes, those are fair rates," or "No, we think you're charging too much," or "Hey, we actually think you're charging too little." The Ontario Energy Board also wants to make sure that utilities are being responsible and maintaining the grid so that it is safe and reliable and affordable for their customers. The next section is regulatory charges. And so that is very simply the cost of having a regulated system of the Ontario Energy Board and having a regulator to oversee and administer the provincial electricity system and ensure that it remains affordable and reliable for everybody. So there is a cost, and that is on everyone's electricity bills. So those are the main sections, but there may be other potential charges and rebates on your bill that you'll see. And so these include things like HST. So electricity is subject to HST in Ontario, so you'll see that tax line. Most customers that are on the RPP, the Regulated Price Plan, are eligible for the Ontario Electricity Rebate, and this is a rebate from the provincial government of Ontario to help reduce electricity costs, primarily targeted at residential, farm, and small business customers. And you will see this on your bill as a pre-tax credit. One last section that you might see if you're a net-metered customer, and a net-metered customer is someone who generates electricity on their home or business and uses some of that electricity, but may also push some back to the grid. So if you're one of those customers, you will sometimes see net-metered generation credits, and so this is a credit that you get that can be used to offset the electricity portion of your bill based on how much you generate and push back to the grid. So to wrap this all up, let's take a quick look at why electricity prices are different in different areas of Canada. What's the difference? Why are we not charged all the same? As we've said before, energy is a provincial jurisdiction, so there are provincial grids, and they're usually operated at the provincial level. And, you know, some of the pricing and the structure is set at that provincial level. Different provinces have different generation mixes, and so in some of the sort of cheaper provinces to run, one of the things they have is a lot of hydroelectricity. So these are dams that use the movement of water to generate electricity. Quebec has a lot of hydroelectricity. Manitoba and BC both have a lot of hydroelectricity. And the reason that this results in lower electricity prices is that while there's a high upfront cost to build a dam, to build a generating station based on, you know, falling water, the operating cost is actually extremely low compared to other options. There's not a lot of input, you know, the water is going to do its thing, and once you've got that turbine there and the right infrastructure, it's going to generate electricity. And so there are costs, but not as much as, for example, a nuclear plant or a gas or a coal plant that require a lot of input in the form of fuel to make that plant run. So when you look at where some of the cheapest jurisdictions are and most expensive jurisdictions, there's actually a report from Hydro Quebec that looks at Canadian municipalities, Canadian cities that have the highest and lowest electricity costs. And the four cheapest cities are Montreal, Quebec; Winnipeg, Manitoba; Vancouver, BC; and Ottawa, Ontario. The four most expensive cities, and these are 2023-2024 numbers, I believe, the most expensive cities are Edmonton, Alberta; Calgary, Alberta; Halifax, Nova Scotia; and Charlottetown, PEI. There are other reasons why different jurisdictions will have different prices. You know, there are different sort of regulatory charges and costs and environments. There's infrastructure and maintenance costs. So an older, more aging grid that has to be renewed and upgraded is going to cost more than something that's gone through that already. If you look at density, also, if you have a very dense population where everyone lives kind of close to each other, it's a lot easier to get electricity to those folks compared to a much more sparsely populated, spread-out area where there are lots of long runs to get electricity to different municipalities and towns and villages. So lots of variables go into the cost of electricity, and it definitely differs from province to province. So that's the bulk of what we wanted to talk about today. I know it's a lot, but it is really important to understand why you're paying what you're paying for electricity, and what your money is going to do, especially at a time when we are looking to grow and expand our grid, to modernize our grid, to invest in making sure that the electricity grid can support us decarbonizing our lives, electrifying our lives, and adding more distributed energy resources like solar and storage and things like that. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of ThinkEnergy Shorts, or ThinkEnergy Medium. I hope this breakdown gives you some of that information, and I always appreciate you joining us. I'm Trevor Freeman, and this has been another episode of ThinkEnergy. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the ThinkEnergy Podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review. It really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest, you can always reach us at [email protected].