Driving the energy transition: the new reality of EVs in Canada
Forget range anxiety. The electric vehicle market is evolving fast. Host Trevor Freeman welcomes back Plug'n Drive CEO Cara Clairman to unpack Canada's new EV policies. They discuss the surge in used EV sales and the truth about public charging stations. Plus, learn how low-cost salt-based batteries could disrupt the global auto industry. Discover what these massive shifts mean for transportation and the future of energy. Listen to the full episode today. Related links Plug'n Drive: https://www.plugndrive.ca/ Cara Clairman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cara-clairman-84967318/ thinkenergy episode 71 (EV-olving Transportation): https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/ev-olving-transportation/ Geotab: https://www.geotab.com/ Trevor Freeman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trevor-freeman-p-eng-8b612114 Hydro Ottawa: https://hydroottawa.com/en To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405 To subscribe using Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl To subscribe on Libsyn: http://thinkenergy.libsyn.com/ --- Subscribe so you don't miss a video: https://www.youtube.com/@thinkenergypod Follow along on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thinkenergypod/ Stay in the know on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thinkenergypod Keep up with the posts on X: https://twitter.com/thinkenergypod --- Transcript: [00:00] Trevor Freeman: Welcome to Think Energy, a podcast that dives into the fast-changing world of energy through conversations with industry leaders, innovators, and people on the front lines of the energy transition. Join me, Trevor Freeman, as I explore the traditional, unconventional, and up-and-coming facets of the energy industry. If you have any thoughts, feedback, or ideas for topics we should cover, please reach out to us at [email protected]. Hi everyone and welcome back. So, any discussion about the energy transition or our efforts to reduce emissions to mitigate the impact of climate change or even just the ongoing adoption of what once might have been considered futuristic technology, inevitably will include electric vehicles, or EVs as we're going to refer to them today. Transportation is one of the major interactions with energy, especially fossil fuel-based energy that most of us have. Heating being the other one. For the average Canadian, how they move around, going to work, going to school, shopping, recreation, etc., very often involves getting into a vehicle which up until maybe 10 years ago, would almost 100% for sure have been a fossil fuel burning vehicle with a few very small exceptions. Today, while the majority of vehicles are still internal combustion engines, there is at least a noteworthy percentage of electric vehicles out there. We probably all know someone who owns an EV, or know someone who knows someone who owns an EV. EVs aren't actually all that new. The first EV showed up in the late 1800s, believe it or not, and at that point and into the early 1900s, it really could have gone either way between electric-powered vehicles and internal combustion vehicles. As we know, internal combustion vehicles definitely won out, and the bulk of the 20th century was all about internal combustion vehicles, and still today that's the dominant method of transportation. But, there is some alternate reality out there where EVs just always were the transportation method of choice. Imagine what the world would look like if that was the case here. But alas, that is not the reality we're living in. The more recent modern EV era kind of sputtered a little bit in the mid-1990s, there was a bit of an attempt, it didn't really pan out, but really got going around let's say 2008-2009, and it's been a steady crawl forward ever since. But, if you are listening to this podcast, chances are you already know all this and you've likely either skipped forward or are listening to me on two times the speed just to get through this to the important stuff, which is EV policy. You never knew you were so excited about policy. So, most of us, including governments, inherently know that the move to EVs is a good thing. It's good for the climate, it's good for consumers, they're kind of better vehicles. But, societal changes don't just happen, and they certainly don't happen fast. So, there has been a suite of policy approaches over the past couple of years or many years to help us get there and help us get there a little bit quicker. In the past year, Canada's EV policy has changed quite a bit. Availability mandates are out, and incentives are back in. Tariffs on Chinese-manufactured vehicles are mostly out, so things are definitely changing. And to help us understand these changes and what they mean, and also just to check in on the state of EVs here in 2026, I'm really excited to have Cara Clairman back on the show. Cara is the President and CEO of Plug'n Drive, a non-profit that strives to accelerate the deployment of electric vehicles to maximize their environmental and economic benefits. And they do this by engaging with Canadians to help dispel myths and fears and uncertainties around EVs using approaches like their EV Discovery Centre, mobile EV education trailer, and their EVs Are for Everyone tour. And this is really about bringing the EV to the individual, to the person, letting them test drive it, touch it, feel it, ask questions of experts. Now, Cara has actually been on the show a number of years ago where she talked to my predecessor, Dan, about the back story of Plug'n Drive a little bit. So, if you're interested in the organization, I encourage you to go back and listen to that episode. We're not going to get into too much of that here today. Cara is a fantastic individual. She's got more than 25 years of experience working in the environmental and sustainability fields, including at Ontario Power Generation where she was OPG's environmental lawyer and later in the role of Vice President of Sustainable Development. Cara was the 2017 recipient of the Women in Renewable Energy's Woman of the Year award, and the 2021 winner of the Al Cormier EV Leadership Award from Electric Mobility Canada. And as you will hear, she is a big fan of EVs, and she thinks you should be, too. Cara Clairman, welcome to the show. [05:01] Cara Clairman: Thank you so much, Trevor. I'm pleased to be here. [05:03] Trevor Freeman: So, this isn't actually your first time on the show, Cara. It's the first time you and I have spoken on this podcast, but you were on our show with my predecessor, Dan, nearly 5 years ago now, and you talked then about how you took Plug'n Drive from just an idea during your time at OPG, to really a national non-profit that's now celebrating its 15th anniversary. And for our listeners, if you're curious about the back story on Plug'n Drive, definitely dig back in the archives and listen to that episode. But, a lot has changed in 15 years, and a lot has changed even in the 4 and a half years since you were last on Think Energy. EVs have gone from kind of this niche idea you'd maybe see one or two around here and there, to, you know, maybe not quite ubiquitous and they're not everywhere, but it seems like they're going in that direction. They're a lot more commonplace. Everybody knows somebody with an EV, or you see them around most times you're out and about. Um, and they are also a very much talked about cornerstone of our national policy. It's an often-talked-about tool for decarbonization. We're going to dive into some of the specifics throughout our conversation, but just looking at the work that you and Plug'n Drive are doing from your EV Discovery Centre to your EVs Are for Everyone tour, how has your mission shifted? Are you moving from convincing people that EVs are a real thing that worked to helping navigate how to get one, what's the complex web of, you know, incentives, etc. What's the difference in your mission now? [06:36] Cara Clairman: Well honestly, I feel like it's really uh the same in a lot of ways. The big difference, as you pointed out, is that we don't really have to explain what an EV is or that it's a decent car. You know, there's some sort of what I would call EV 101 that most people already know now. And like you said, most people have known somebody, or they've at least heard of it. But I would say there's still a high percentage of Canadians that have never ridden or driven one. Uh, and so that's an experience that we find is really the key, like getting the butts in the seats is really the key to helping people get over the hump. And uh, that's sort of the experience that we focus on. We really try to pair a test drive with every event that we do and encourage people to drive so that they can see the benefits go far beyond just the savings and the environmental benefits, that they're just really super fun cars to drive, and if you're a person that likes a quiet, peppy drive, this is the car for you. [07:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Are people coming to your events knowing, "I'm going down the EV path, I'm going to buy one, I need to check this out," or they're coming in kind of thinking, "What are these people doing here at this event or in this parking lot?" Like what draws people to your events? [08:05] Cara Clairman: More more of the former and less of the latter as time goes on, but it depends on the event we're at. So, if it's just they've made an appointment to come see us, which often is the case, we have an appointment system, uh, then they know a little bit, and they're thinking about it, and they want to try it. Uh, if we're just at a festival or fair, which we do, you know, we just are at some event, and they didn't come specifically to see us, uh, then we still meet a lot of people who are like, "What is this?" you know, uh, and so they're earlier in their journey. But what we find is that they need the awareness building, and then they might, you know, make the move a few years down the road, so it still helps them. It's just they're at a different step. [08:50] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, for sure. No, that makes sense. Okay, so what I really want to dive into here today with you is kind of the shifting landscape, or maybe it's already a shifted landscape, um, regarding EV policy, some of the shifts that we've seen even in the last year or two. Um, so recently, you know, we're here in Canada, the federal government repealed the EV availability standard. So, this was the standard that said we want 100% of cars sold in Canada to be zero-emission by the year 2035. [09:27] Cara Clairman: Right. [09:28] Trevor Freeman: And we're moving towards more of an incentive-based strategy. So, a demand-side push rather than an incentive uh sorry, a supply-side push. Does this transition make sense for the average Canadian? Does it risk slowing down the momentum we've built? Kind of where do you stand on on this shift in our approach to EVs? [09:49] Cara Clairman: Right. To be honest, I was a bit disappointed that they repealed what we call a ZEV mandate or ZEV requirement. We were hoping instead of sort of throwing the baby out with the bath water, they would just make the ZEV requirement maybe less onerous and extend the time or something like that, because the benefit of a ZEV mandate um is that it does require dealers to have the vehicles on the lots. And so it actually increases choice, it increases availability, and that's why you hear some people calling it a ZEV availability standard. Trying to explain it to Canadians because it got a bit garbled in the news where it was like, "We're not going to be able to choose a gas car. You're going to be required to buy an EV." Well, that was way down the road. And uh, what it really did in the early years was make sure dealers would have some. And uh, so that's unfortunate, but, you know, got to move on. So, uh, now we're we brought back uh the Feds brought back the rebate, and sales shot up. So, that's good news. And, you know, hopefully, the dealer networks will make the cars available uh in Ontario. The big challenge is that there's still a ZEV availability standard or ZEV mandate in Quebec and British Columbia, which means they get the cars first. And, you know, you do hear, "Oh, this thing doesn't work. This thing is no good." Well, then why do they get the cars and we don't? You know, so it does work. And so, unfortunately, like if you happen to be listening from Quebec or BC, you'll get more choices than we will here in Ontario, and I I, you know, I hope that that, you know, with the demand-side push that, you know, there'll be more showing up. [11:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and we've been through periods where even if you wanted to get uh an EV, even if you wanted if you kind of could afford it, you'd decided this is the right option for me budget-wise, [12:03] Cara Clairman: Yes. [12:04] Trevor Freeman: you're waiting 10 months, or you can't get the option you want and and so [12:08] Cara Clairman: Right. You have to be more tolerant of color or features or whatever. We probably will experience some of that. It's very brand dependent. Like, some brands are very available all across Canada, some aren't. Uh, so it's really quite varied. Um, but um the good news is right now um availability's decent, and there's actually lots available on the used market, and maybe we'll talk about that a little bit later to give people comfort around used, because it's really a great option for people to think about. [12:49] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Let's definitely uh put a pin in that and get back to it. The other big shift I I want to touch on is um or at least it's a big shift that's getting a lot of attention, is the reduction of the previously 100% tariff on Chinese-made EVs down to only a little over 6% now, which effectively opens the doors to Canadians to um have access to these vehicles, so they can be sold in Canada. How do you see this impacting you know, availability and adoption of EVs? Is this going to be a game changer? Are we going to see those kinds of sub-$30,000 EVs on the market? Or is this kind of, you know, one small shift in the market? [13:31] Cara Clairman: Well, the one thing it has done is created tons of curiosity and interest. You know, everybody wants to know about it, everyone wants to see one. Um, there are EV spies, as you may know, everywhere, like EV enthusiasts who are watch, and, you know, we saw some news report that there were a few Chinese EVs on a lot, you know, north of Toronto somewhere, and people are like, "Oh, what brand is this?" and But unfortunately, we don't know uh really the answer to this question that you're asking yet. Um, we're told that the first Chinese EVs will be here in the last quarter of 2026. Uh, and we don't even know yet if they might be brands we already have, you know. They could be Teslas, they could be Volvos or Polestars. Which we already have. [14:22] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. [14:23] Cara Clairman: So, uh, we're hoping we'll see some low cost, you know, BYD or Geelys or whatever else, you know, but we don't know. Yeah. And uh, and it will be exciting to watch, and, you know, we're watching and trying to find out when the first vehicles are going to be available or shown, but nobody knows the answer yet. [14:48] Trevor Freeman: Are you getting like when you interact with people that are in the EV market, are you getting more questions about that? Are people kind of excited about this? Yeah, okay. That's good. [14:56] Cara Clairman: Yes. And it's a mixed bag. You know, some people are very wary about it. Um, and what I try to say is look, we already have you know, these phones. You know, so I'm not worried about the whole security and that someone's going to be watching you know, that part of it I really think is a bit of a red herring. We've already gone there, you know, so so and people's information is out there. You know, I mean, so that's not a big concern to me. Um, I think uh the quality we don't have to worry about. Uh, these cars are widely available in Europe, in uh Mexico, and in South America, and they're good. [15:47] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. [15:48] Cara Clairman: So, we don't have to worry about that. It's just going to be Canadians, you know, be willing to give them a try, and we'll see. Most people say that they would, so we'll see. [15:59] Trevor Freeman: And I guess the, you know, it's either you're trying that car or hopefully the presence of these cars, hopefully a little bit cheaper is also influencing what other manufacturers are doing and realizing, "I've got to compete in that marketplace." [16:11] Cara Clairman: Right, exactly, Trevor. Remember, I mean, you might be too young to remember when the Japanese cars first came to Canada in the 80s. And everyone had these exact same concerns. And you know, what it did was it made the American brands improve. And so, you know, I'm hopeful, and just to remember, these are coming in a very low quantity initially. They're not going to change the market in these next couple of years. If, you know, they open up the door more widely, you know, that's a different thing. But for now, it's a really tiny percentage. It's like less than 50,000 cars, and it's something like 3% of the Canadian auto market, so it's tiny. [17:01] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Got you. So, the the new uh or the the renewed incentive that the federal government's brought in Electric Vehicle Affordability Program, um which is providing an incentive for electric vehicles or zero-emission vehicles, um there's a strict $50,000 price cap for any imports, meaning some of those higher-end EVs that are made elsewhere won't qualify for this. Is is $50,000 the right price point? I look at just the price of vehicles in general these days, it's definitely trending up, way higher than I would prefer it to be. Is that the right price point given what's available? Is there enough availability under that price point? Um, and you know, does this affect the kind of conversation that you're having with potential buyers? [17:56] Cara Clairman: Right now, there's not a lot available under that price point. I mean, I think it is encouraging certain brands to bring a version that is below the price point. Uh, and it has increased sales, so there obviously are some that, you know, qualify. Uh, the truth is, gas or electric, it's hard to find vehicles under that price point. Um, so yeah, would I have liked it to have been a little more generous? Sure. Uh, but it is helping, and I do see some automakers shifting prices. I mean, I don't know if you saw that Tesla now has brought out a car that fits just under there. Mhm. So it does do that, and uh it does just encourage people to look. And then maybe they'll buy a used EV. Yeah. You know, so it does sort of open the door, it encourages people to have a conversation, to look around, uh it sparks interest, which is a good thing. [19:04] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and I mean, Ford is looking at how do we come out with a $30,000 truck, and that would qualify for this. [19:11] Cara Clairman: And the Bolt qualifies, the new Bolt, and it's a great car, and the new Leaf, uh, you know, is coming under there. So, there are good cars under there. I mean, Canadians do love their trucks and SUVs, and unfortunately, those do not make it. [19:30] Trevor Freeman: I know. Yeah, you're totally right. Um, so obviously Canadian manufactured EVs are exempt from that price cap. [19:38] Cara Clairman: Yes. [19:39] Trevor Freeman: Are you seeing a game of kind of buy local versus get an incentive? Um, you know, how does this come into play? Is that part of the conversation? [19:51] Cara Clairman: Well, right now, buying local is just about impossible. Yeah. I mean, there's there's literally two vehicles that are made partially in Canada, and, you know, we've heard a bunch of announcements recently that Canadian manufacturing of EVs has either been postponed or gone off the rails altogether, which is really unfortunate, cuz I was really looking forward to being able to buy a Canadian-made EV. Uh, you know, these plans change, they could come back, you don't know. Uh, but right now, it doesn't look that easy to buy a Canadian-made EV. I mean, there's basically the Pacifica and the Dodge Dart. Mhm. You know, that's it uh right now. Uh, and you know, Toyota's going to make some RAV4s, which will be great. Um, you know, Honda just announced they're not going ahead with their plans, um so it's really unfortunate. The thing that I try to remind people is manufacturing is one thing, and EV adoption in a way is completely separate from that, Yeah. because we manufacture cars primarily for the US market. I mean, Canada's almost an afterthought. And so, that's the reason this is happening, it's because of tariffs, it's because of bu- you know, America First policies, it's because of, you know, US politics. And uh, it's really unfortunate for the Canadian auto industry, but it doesn't mean EV adoption won't continue to really grow. It just means we're going to be buying cars that aren't made here. [21:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Well, and that's kind of the next place I want to go with this conversation is our own manufacturing industry, as you've just pointed out, is so tied in with the United States um manufacturing industry and Mexico. That's actually where I grew up in Windsor. My family is an auto family. My first job was kind of in the auto industry. Um, and the intricacies and and interties between those two industries are very, very tight. But, we're at this stage where we seem to be, not seem to be, we definitely are, moving in different directions policy-wise, especially when it comes to EV policy and trade policy in general. Um, that creates challenges and friction. We're trying to build maybe more of a manufacturing base here. The US is trying to pull that back. And that pull is strong. Yeah. It is, yeah. [22:34] Cara Clairman: I mean, they have the population. I mean, we can't fight that very well, and, you know, we'll time will tell. I mean, Trump won't be there forever, but a lot of the damage will have been done. And I know there's a lot of folks really working hard on maintaining the automaker footprint we have here. It's a huge challenge. [22:54] Trevor Freeman: Mhm. Yeah, is there a way to kind of thread that needle for pushing EV adoption? You know, we're kind of falling behind adoption rates that we've seen elsewhere, Europe, Asia, etc. Pushing that while still bolstering our own manufacturing base, trying to maintain these ties with our largest trading partner? Like how how do you I have to admit I'm not an expert on the industrial side, like on the commercial and manufacturing side of things, but from people that are, what I hear is, you know, we may have to let the Chinese, Indian, uh, Vietnamese uh, manufacturers come in and manufacture here in Canada instead of the brands we're used to being manufactured here. And that's something that could happen. That's something that would sort of replace I mean, the ones that are a real problem are the American-made the American brands, you know. They're really feeling the pull to manufacture in the US. Uh, so time will tell. Uh, you know, we may just be making different cars than we were making before. I hope we'll still be making them. [24:14] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, well and there's I mean, you can kind of see the government trying to do exactly what you said, entice companies to do some part of manufacturing here. They've got this tradeable import credit system where, "Hey, if you invest in manufacturing in our country, you get credits to sort of buy your way through our import market. It can offset some of the tariffs that might be in place." You know, that's a mechanism to do exactly what you're saying we might see. [24:41] Cara Clairman: Right. And some of those brands don't mind sending their vehicles anywhere from Canada. You know, they're not as focused on the fact that Canada has what's considered quite a small market, um given our population size. Uh, and I think in the future, well maybe the tariffs are going to change if the American if American politics changes. Yeah. You know, so I do think that's possible, um like I said, some of the damage will have been done if you know, if GM moves production to Detroit or wherever else, you know, they're not going to move back. But um you know, time will tell. I mean, I do think we'll have some manufacturing still in Canada and hopefully more than what it looks like right now. [25:31] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, I mean it'll be interesting to see. As you say, these policies may not be in place forever, but some of the reaction that is going to happen now in terms of do I move my manufacturing base back to the US, that will persist, and you're not going to make two moves, you're going to kind of make a one time tough one. [25:46] Cara Clairman: No, and especially if it creates some job uh you know, a bunch of jobs in the US, the next US president, even if they're Democrat and they get rid of tariffs and stuff, they're not going to move it back. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [25:57] Trevor Freeman: Okay, so um let's let's kind of zoom back in a little bit here. So, Plug'n Drive, um you've been doing these uh EVs Are for Everyone tours, um kind of as we talked about earlier, giving people access that might not otherwise have access to to understand, try out EVs. And you've been doing this kind of across the board, including in smaller communities. Is there something that you hear differently in a small town, a rural area, compared to a big urban center, you know, Toronto, Ottawa, etc. Oh definitely. [26:30] Cara Clairman: Well, the big thing is they don't have access, as you said. So in a smaller community, they might only have a handful of dealers, and those dealers may or may not carry EVs. And so they really don't get a chance to try them, and trying, as I mentioned at the off the top, is the key to buying. Yeah. And uh, whatever preconceived notion you might have had, you know, it kind of melts away once you get behind the wheel, even just the reality of like, "Oh, this is a great car." You know? And and so, whatever that experience, or whatever they thought it might be, it's it's gone. And uh, and so, it's a really important uh part of the process. And so, that's the main thing in a smaller community, they don't have that. Now, the other thing that we noticed is how far people drive. Now, people do drive farther in a smaller community, but what has surprised us is they don't drive as far as they think. Hmm, interesting. Yeah. And most of us actually don't drive as far as we think. Yeah. We might sit in traffic and stuff, even like us, you know, in big cities. Um, but we don't actually go that many kilometers, or not as many as we think. Um, and they don't either. And, you know, what they do is they, you know, into town, back and forth, for soccer, you know, same as anyone. Yeah. You know, so for for for sports or whatever for their kids, and then shopping or see Grandma or whatever. Um, and then once in a while, a long trip. And that is a thing that weighs heavily on Canadian minds is the road trip. Yeah. We are really obsessed with the road trip, and it's a one-off trip. And this is the thing we can't seem to shake loose, which is, you know, "What am I going to do if I need to drive to" and you fill in the X. Yeah. It could be across Canada, which hardly anyone does, or it could be like my trip to Algonquin, or my trip to Maine, or, you know, not right now, trip to uh, PEI let's say. Um, whatever. It's like, that one-off trip is so important to people, and we try to say, "Okay, yeah, that's more challenging in an EV. It can totally be done now, but it's still harder, and we sort of say try to think about your car for the 98-99%, not the 1% of trips." I might have even said this 5 years ago. Like, it's still a thing that we can't seem to, you know, stop people from fixating on, and we sort of say, "You know, with all the money you're going to save, you can" and we should talk about the savings because people do not understand that. Uh, all the money you're going to save, you can rent a car, or do something else, or what I do, once every 2 years, is swap with my brother-in-law who's got a minivan. Mhm. You know, and you can solve that problem for a one-time trip. Don't make that that's a bad way to choose a car anyway, gas or electric. Yeah. You know, because you're going to spend a lot more on gas hauling around a bigger, heavier car. Uh, so, even if you're not ready, it's a bad idea. [30:04] Trevor Freeman: So, in terms of So, availability of charging is one of them, and there's that road trip idea for sure. There's also, I mean, we hear, and me working at the utility, as people are trying to put chargers in, we hear this a lot. People's preferred charging location is at home. We know that, that's where people want to charge, they want to plug in at home. Yes. Not everybody has a driveway or a garage, not everybody can install a charger at home. So, one of the things the federal government has been doing over the last little while is trying to increase access to public charging. Yes. Where are we at with our sort of public charging infrastructure? Is the network kind of built out to handle those road trips, or to handle that kind of, you know, someone who lives in a multi-res building, a condo, an apartment that can't charge at home? Where are we on that front? [31:18] Cara Clairman: Okay. I would say, as a very early adopter, you know, I had my first EV in 2011, so, you know, from my perspective, the network's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was one supercharger, or like, fast, I mean, it was a slow fast charger, uh, in all of Ontario at that time. I mean, so now, there's more than 40,000 chargers across Canada. Uh, there's, you know, about a quarter of those are fast chargers at highway stops and convenient places. If you live in urban suburban Canada, and you commute, it's basically solved. Like, it's so good. I'm- and then, I'm sure someone will listen and say, "Well, for me, it's not." Okay. There- there's still gaps. Is it perfect? No. But it's really quite good, and you just have to go to PlugShare or ChargeHub and take a look, and you'll be shocked at how many chargers there are. I mean, there are a lot. [32:27] Trevor Freeman: For our listeners, PlugShare and ChargeHub are both kinds of resources that map out all the chargers, the status, is it broken, is it fixed, here's what it costs, it's really great resources. [32:39] Cara Clairman: Yes, everything. All the information you need. And all EV drivers will have that app on their phone. Mhm. Uh, then where it is challenging, you know, we got to acknowledge, even like an EV enthusiast like me, got to acknowledge, it's not perfect. Where the big challenges still exist is multi-unit residential, still challenging, and rural remote. Mhm. Still challenging. So, not so much for people who live rural remote, who want to, let's say, drive to town or drive to somewhere, to the city. That's okay. It's if you want to take a really long trip into rural, let's say, from Ottawa to Thunder Bay or Toronto to, you know, Winnipeg. That's still a challenging drive. It's doable, but it's hard. Um, if you're a commuter, which, you know, most of us are, you know, and you can charge at home, I mean, it's done. It's great. I mean, for someone like me, it's fantastic. I mean, I drive about 80 kilometers uh every week, and it's a snap, you know. No problem. Most of the cars have 400-500 kilometers range. I don't even think about it, even on like a minus 30 day. Where where I do think there's the most work that needs to be done is on the MURBs, multi unit residential. And some of the funding that the Feds have put forward for chargers is going into multi-unit, which is great. Mhm. Uh, condos will get done. Condos are getting done. Uh, where it's hard is apartment buildings. I mean, they're so there you need to search for public charging near you. Mhm. And if you're in Quebec, you're probably going to find it pretty easily, BC, it's getting better. Uh, Ontario is still a bit rough, and the Maritimes and the Prairies, super rough. [34:39] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, we do, Hydro Ottawa actually was a recipient of federal funding to install public chargers. We did a lot of public chargers uh public access chargers in multi-unit residential, you know. It's so important, as you said. Everyone wants to charge at home. Exactly, yeah. And, it's the cheapest, it's and we haven't talked about super low night time prices, and being able to plug in overnight and, you know, right now with high gas prices, people are looking into it. It makes a difference. Well, let's talk about the price then, that's kind of the next barrier, is "Ah, it's too expensive, I can't get into it." Um, tell us about the economics around owning an EV. [35:16] Cara Clairman: So, this is a challenge because people see the higher stick- sticker price, and they say, "Oh, EVs are too expensive." Well, they aren't doing the math, and we are trying to, you try to help, we're trying to help. There's other groups trying to help. We have a great calculator on our website to show the total cost of ownership, and to explain that yes, you pay a little bit more upfront, and the $5,000 rebate if you can get it drops that down to about $5K on average. 5k extra, that's the premium, yeah. 5k extra. Yep. Now, you would make that back in 2 to 3 years easily depending on how much you drive, because electricity is like 1/5 the price of gas, and even maybe more like 1/6 now that gas prices have gone up. Mhm. So, if you're paying $2 a liter, um which I hear, is what, you know, We're not far off, yeah. I don't know, I don't buy gas. Yeah. But, uh, $2 a liter, I'm paying the equivalent of, on time of use, of uh, 28¢, and now on ultra-low, 14¢. Um, I mean, a l- per liter equivalent. For the same driving range, yeah. For the same driving. And so, can you imagine that I can fully charge a 500-kilometer car for like 2 bucks overnight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you just can't believe how cheap it is. And if and so if we can get people to sort of understand the pay now to save later, which is hard for people. Yep. And if they lease, it's easier to understand because then they're not sort of shoveling out that money upfront necessarily. Mhm. It's a winner, you know, economically, you know, leaving aside the environmental and health benefits. Mhm. Uh, and so, we really try to help We have a great tool on our website that shows all this called Find Your EV Match, and you can compare any of your own, like all the historic gas cars, like any car that you own is in there. So, let's say you want to compare a 19 99 or a 2015 Civic to a Leaf or a Bolt, or whatever car you're thinking of, uh, you can do the comparison, and it will show you the savings month by month. Mhm. And then it will show you when your kind of hit that crossover and you're in the money. Yeah. And then you basically feel like you're earning money. [37:51] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. I will say, as also, as an EV driver, when I I have two vehicles, one's still a gas car and one's uh an EV, when I have to fill up the gas car, I'm I'm always I compare it to my EV that I don't have to fill up, it's it's night and day when it comes to the cost. It's absolutely night and day. [38:09] Cara Clairman: I mean, it's and also the maintenance. So, there's just no maintenance. I mean, obviously there's a little tiny bit. There's brakes, eventually, even that gets delayed because of the generative braking, Longer, yeah. and, you know, windshield wipers and tires, which you do anyway. I mean, I've now had a Leaf, a Bolt, a Model 3, and an Ioniq 5. Okay, and I have literally never had to do any maintenance except brakes, Mhm on any of them. Yeah, that's amazing. And, they've all been the first gen, right? Like my Leaf was the very first gen Leaf, my Bolt was a first gen Bolt 2017, and uh the Ioniq I think was the second year, which is what I drive now. Yeah. And uh, just nothing. And so, it just to me like, I'm almost like, "I can't believe everybody's not doing it! It's so cheap." Now, I understand some people, if you drive 250 kilometers each way and you, you know, I get it. It's not so simple for everyone. You live in a MURB, but if you live in a single-family home, it's a slam dunk. [39:27] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. So, we've kind of covered charging availability, we've talked about the cost implications. There's a battery performance question of is this battery going to be around for 10 years, the life of the car? [39:39] Cara Clairman: Yes. Especially when used, people are worried about it. [39:41] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, is the range going to get me there, and that kind of ties into charging? Where are we at? Have we seen that technology change in the 15 years that you've been in this space? Where are we at with that? [39:51] Cara Clairman: Yeah. In the early years, I always wanted to be honest, right, because it doesn't help to be overly glowing, and then, you know, people are disappointed, you got to be forthright with people where there are pluses and where there are the minuses. In the early years, of course, the range was really low, and so that was a challenge for people who had to drive long distances. Now the range of the EV is great, that's not an issue for most people anymore. Battery life, people used to say, "Well, how long will the battery last?" And the truthful answer 15 years ago was we don't know, Mhm because there was no information. I mean, Yeah, we hadn't done it. We thought we knew because the Prius had a similar type of battery, as a hybrid, and we thought it should be similar, and those are doing well. Well, now we have 15 years of information, and the batteries are lasting so well. Now, you hear in the news the odd story about a battery crapping out, and it really is anecdotal, and so you can't pay attention to it. Um, it's a lemon situation, right, and that's going to happen, right, there are going to be lemons, just like in a gas car. [41:03] Trevor Freeman: Exactly, yeah. You have to get your engine replaced randomly if you have a lemon, it happens. [41:07] Cara Clairman: Yes, it happens. But the data will tell you, and Geotab has some really good data on their website where they studied how long are these batteries lasting, like 15 years later, and it looks like, for the most part, they're going to outlast the body of the car. Like, 20 years, no problem. So, this idea that you would have to replace a battery is really unrealistic, like, most of us will never have to do that. And no one keeps their car for 20 years, or very few people keep their car for 20 years. No, it's a 10 year window, and if you're like most Canadians, 7 to 10 years, uh, you're not going to be replacing the battery. That's not going to happen. And most of them, uh, sort of a typical battery loss, battery degradation over time is 1 and a half to 2% a year. Hm. So, you're going to see some declines, so let's say at year 5, you should be down no more than 10%, and uh uh, so when you look at a used vehicle, you can do a test on the battery and see how it's doing, something called a State of Health check on the battery. It's a test that any dealer can do, like any service center can do. And you can be confident that it's fine. [42:33] Trevor Freeman: Mhm. So, let's say you brought up used vehicles a couple times here. Let's talk about that as an option for people wanting to get into the EV space maybe a bit more affordably. Yes. Like is the supply out there? Are there a bunch of these sitting around waiting to be scooped up? Yes. Great, now let's talk about it. [42:49] Cara Clairman: Yeah, that's a great news story. So, there's there's um a lot of supply, uh, there's, you know, if you think about it, all the vehicles that come off lease or whatever, you know, even there's now 2023s, you know, available, there're there's a lot of availability. And so, you know, you just go on your favorite, you know, auto trader type magazine, and you will see, uh online, there's tons of availability, and uh, you know, what I say to people if they're worried about battery life, they do that State of Health check on the battery. If you're buying it privately, uh, you can ask. Uh, it's only about a hundred bucks, I think it's worth it. Uh, the other thing you could do, if you just can't figure that out or you don't want to figure that out, is just trickle charge the battery overnight and see, you know, what does it say, how many kilometers uh range you have, and compare that to what the manual says it should have. That's sort of a rule of thumb type of test, it's not as good as the actual test, but it'll give you a good idea. So so the, you know, people should not be afraid of a used EV. And uh, also, if you are really concerned, most of them have, you know, the 8 to 10 year warranty on the battery. And so, if you are really concerned, just make sure you're still in in warranty. Yeah. Uh, you know, don't go older than 8 years, and also check, you know, because sometimes there's a kilometer limit and a year limit, so it's like 8 years or 180,000 kilometers, or you know, they're all a bit different, but um check it, and uh that's a great way of sort of if you still have a year or two left on the on the warranty, then you're sort of safe. Yeah. to see like see how it see how it does. And price point wise, these are coming in at like a reasonable for a used vehicle, a reasonable price point. Totally reasonable, you can get an EVs in the 20s, in the well you can get the oldest ones even lower than that, in like, um, apparently my 2017 Bolt, which we still keep and use, we love it, uh, would only be worth like, I don't know, $12 or $15,000. So, they're cheap, and this one got the battery fixed. I always say to people, the Bolt had a recall on the batteries, 2017 to 2019. And most of them got the battery fixed, so, and then the warranty goes back to year 1. Mhm. So, you basically can get a used Bolt that's almost like a new car because it got a new battery put in, and so those are like gems to find, yeah. Uh, so, they're, you know, that's why we're hanging on to ours, it's great. That's great. [45:41] Trevor Freeman: Okay, Cara, we're getting close to the end of our conversation here. So, uh you know, you've been at this for a while, 15 years of Plug'n Drive, um obviously an EV enthusiast on top of that. What's your general feeling about where we're at right now in 2026? Is it where you thought we would be, maybe looking back a few years ago? Is it, you know, we've got a long road to climb here, where are you? What are you thinking here? [46:08] Cara Clairman: Well, I do tend to be an optimist, but I was probably a little overly optimistic about how fast the transition would happen, and we have had some bumps in the road. Uh, but I would characterize all the stuff that's happened in the last year or two as bumps in the road to eventually everyone having an EV. I mean, I do think it's inevitable still, and I think most of even the, you know, automakers would say it's inevitable. The cars are better, mhm they last better, they perform better, and even without all the environmental and health benefits, they have a lot of other econ- economic benefits. Uh, so I do think it's inevitable. It has been slower than I expected. Mhm. Uh, but, um, I'm still really optimistic about the future, uh, and I think Canadians are going to embrace EVs maybe sooner than than some folks, and and I think all what's happened with with Trump and also this war and all these things has actually got more people asking questions about EVs than ever before, so he accidentally actually spurred on the interest in EVs, which is funny. [47:26] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, and I think we've seen that over over the years, these sort of starts and fits, and no doubt there will be another maybe slow down, but I I tend to agree, we're we're angling in that direction, and there's really no pulling back now. I would, so my oldest is 13, and I remember probably 5, 6, maybe 7 years ago, thinking, "You know, wow, by the time uh he's driving, he may never drive an ICE vehicle, because it'll just all be EVs." So, we haven't quite gotten there, [47:56] Cara Clairman: Yeah, my kids are in their 20s, and they both learned on electric, and they both have never driven a gas car, because we don't have one. Yeah, yeah, that's great. And so I am hopeful, and BC and Quebec have already passed what I would call the tipping point, mhm and so I do think that it's happening, and it's exciting, and it's also a great industry for young people to get into, so um there's lots of lots of pluses. [48:24] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, it's funny on this show, this comes up a lot, and I think all the things that we talked about from utility space to all the energy transition things, EVs being one of them, distributed energy resources, right like if you're a young person looking of what do I get into, what's the thing that I focus on, my goodness, we've got a whole range of things that are are on the cusp, I think of of really taking off, so EVs being one of them. [48:48] Cara Clairman: Electricity, energy, there's a lot of exciting stuff happening in decarbonization, and it's a great field for young people. [48:55] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so we always end our interviews with a series of questions to our guests, Cara, so I'm going to throw a few at you here. Um, what's a book that you've read that you think everybody should read? Ah. Uh, so professional or personal? Well, you can go either direction. I'll even give you two if you want to do one of each. [49:15] Cara Clairman: Okay. So, professional, uh, I read a book called, I think it's called, We're All in Sales. And it really helped me when I was starting Plug'n Drive. It sort of helps you get over this like, "Ugh, sales." Yeah. Which I think a lot of people have because they don't want to have to ask for money or you know, pitch for money or whatever. And it made you re- It was just helpful in that it talks about how, I mean, we're all in sales in one way or another. I mean, you have to sell yourself, you have to sell your ideas, you have to sell something. Some of us were more direct than others, but it helped me. Mhm. Um, um, and then, for women who are entering the workforce, uh, I read a book called The Feminine Mistake. And it's a play on The Feminine Mystique, which was a huge book in the 60s. Yeah. And, I found it really helpful as a working mom, and have little kids, and it's hard. It's a really hard phase. And that book really really helped me. Um, and then personal, uh, I just read uh a book that I really enjoyed, um, uh, it's actually just been made into a movie with uh, Sally Field, called Remarkably Bright Creatures. It's about an octopus, and it's from the octopus's point of view. [50:47] Trevor Freeman: Oh, very cool. I just saw a trailer for this movie, actually. Finding it. [50:50] Cara Clairman: Yeah. So read the book before you watch the show, Okay. because books are always better than the movie, and more in depth and everything. So it's a great book, especially if you love the ocean and mhm sea creatures and octo- pi? Octopuses? are so smart and it was just really adorable. It was a really fun book to read. It's not like it's great, it's written really well, but it's not hard to access, it's not, you know, it's it's great. [51:21] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. No, that's a good one, that's a good recommendation. Um, so kind of the same question, but um, you know, for a movie or a show, is there something you've watched recently that really has stood out to you that you kind of think everyone should take a look at? [51:32] Cara Clairman: I went back and watched This Is Spinal Tap, Nice. That's awesome. which I hadn't watched. And my husband had never seen it. Oh, gods. And I was like, "What?" Cuz you know, because of everything that happened with Rob Reiner, we went back and we watched it. Still hilarious. Oh yeah, so good. It really stood the test of time, so funny. [51:53] Trevor Freeman: I've got This has come up before with other guests, I've got a list of you know, those movies that were so great for me as whatever, a teenager, that I'm waiting for my kids, ridiculous though. I mean, I have to warn you, ridiculous. I'm waiting for my kids to get old enough that I can bring them into this or that one, and that's on the list for sure. So we'll crank it up to 11 here. Um, so if someone offers you a free round trip anywhere in the world, where would you go? [52:20] Cara Clairman: Oh wow. Uh, I actually just got back from Morocco, and it was so fantastic. Oh, gods. It was so beautiful. Um, but I've never been anywhere in Asia, I'd love to go to Japan. Mhm. I've never been there, and South Korea, because also they're very advanced in terms of technology and stuff, and I there's so many neat things, like autonomous vans and things that they're already using there, and vehicle-to-grid, and all this stuff, and at the base, I'm an electricity nerd, so I I would love to go there. [52:55] Trevor Freeman: Yeah. Uh, who's someone that you admire? [52:58] Cara Clairman: Oh my gosh, there's so many people I admire. Um, Louise Arbour. Um, our new, for our listeners, our new Canadian, uh, Governor General, yeah. New GG. That's awesome. She is fantastic. What a role model for women. She became a judge from being a professor. Mhm. Um, she ascended in a way that not very many people have. She worked internationally, she's, and, uh, she's also a really nice person, a really good person. Yeah. And, uh, an accessible person, what I would say is that she's not at all arrogant, she's funny, she's nice to talk to. I had the privilege of working with her when I was a student. Oh, very cool. And, uh, she's just amazing, and I watch her with, she's inspiring. [53:57] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, that's uh I I agree, I've been reading obviously about her because she's in the news right now, and for our listeners, that's our new uh Governor General, and if you're not from Canada, you can look up what a Governor General does for us here in Canada. Um, very, very exciting. Um, yeah, I agree. Um, last question, Cara. What's something about the energy sector or its future that you're particularly excited about? [54:21] Cara Clairman: Oh my gosh, well, you know, aside from all the stuff we've just been talking about, Yeah. um, actually, I saw a YouTube video about batteries uh just the other day, a Chinese battery maker. And what they're doing in batteries is really exciting with salt, you know, salt based batteries that are going to be so cheap. Mhm. And they basically have it, like it's not this futuristic thing, it's a salt-based battery that costs like a fraction, and so the cheapest EVs will get made with those, and that's going to be a game changer. Yeah. That's pretty cool. [55:05] Trevor Freeman: It is exciting to think about. Now that we're really focusing on EVs and letting sort of just that normal technological improvement iterative process happen, Right. how quickly we might see some of these barriers that we just talked about get solved. [55:19] Cara Clairman: Yeah, they're putting their new technology into drones, into like air taxis and all this stuff, mhm. It's now, it's not sort of this Jetson's futuristic thing, it's like really happening, so that's pretty exciting. [55:40] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, now the energy transition is here, we say it all the time on this show. It's here. It's here. When people say EVs are the future, I say no, they're right now. Exactly, yeah, exactly. Um, Cara, it's been great chatting with you, thank you so much for making the time this morning. I really appreciate your insight into what's happening. [55:56] Cara Clairman: Yeah, my pleasure, my pleasure, nice to talk to you too. [55:58] Trevor Freeman: Yeah, hopefully uh we'll talk again in a few years and be talking about how fast it's moved. [56:02] Cara Clairman: I hope so. [56:03] Trevor Freeman: Awesome. Thanks so much. Take care. Okay, you too. Okay, bye. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of the Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, and it would be great if you could leave us a review, it really helps to spread the word. As always, we would love to hear from you, whether it's feedback, comments, or an idea for a show or a guest. You can always reach us at [email protected].
